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September 16, 2002 Tape #018

The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:30 A. M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana with Board Members Ronald A. Schmierer, O. D. “Bud” Ferguson and John C. Heimlich, Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Dennis W. Sterrett, and Secretary Romana Kiser in attendance.


Also attending were Engineers Todd Frauhiger and Vasco Kirby of Samuel L. Moore & Associates, Jack Pherson and Trent Pherson.


Chairman Schmierer called the meeting to order. Board Member Heimlich made a motion to accept the minutes of the September 2, 2002 meeting as written. Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Surveyor Sterrett reported that David Davis has requested a waiver from meeting the Drainage Ordinance for the construction of two hog houses totally 26, 400 square feet. Chairman Schmierer questioned whether the Board should give him a waiver or not because he is building 26,000 square feet and the Drainage Ordinance says anything over 10,000 square feet has to meet the Drainage Ordinance requirements.


Board Member John Heimlich reported that David Davis’ dad (Larry Davis) had talked to him about it and Board Member Heimlich told him they could ask for a waiver. He said Mr. Davis indicated to him that there wasn’t any other landowners involved besides himself and David Davis. He said that Todd (Frauhiger) indicates that drainage would have to go through property that is owned by somebody else, so it would affect somebody else.


Engineer Frauhiger stated that it appears that the drainage is going to go south down to the Big Creek. Sanblooms own the property between him and Big Creek. Chairman Schmierer stated that he feels David Davis should apply for a drainage permit and show us his drainage plan. The Board was in agreement.


Chairman Schmierer asked Jack Pherson to come forward and take the stand. Mr. Pherson addressed the Board and engineer Todd Frauhiger with his concerns about the Christian Brechbiel Tile system performance.


Jack Pherson stated, “I think the real question that I am challenging is you have a twelve inch tile at a .16 grade with the upper end of that one at .3 and you have another twelve inch tile at .21 grade and run it into a fifteen inch tile at .16 grade. How are they supposed to handle, by their words, adequately? It won’t work, it won’t fit and that’s part of the reason why for two and a half days, and Sterrett saw it, it was boiling up out of those airwells and it turned Dr. Tribbett’s field into a retention pond. Now, how is it supposed to work?


Engineer Frauhiger said, “First of all let me talk about the rain storm you had. How many inches did you have?” Jack Pherson answered, “Nobody knows what we really had. Over by my house I had just a little over four inches, his house (Trent’s), he had right at six. Down at the corner of CR 175 and SR 39 they got a little over three.” Engineer Frauhiger said, “Well, regardless, you had a bid rain.” Jack Pherson said, “We had a big rain but it was dryer than a bone.” Engineer Frauhiger said, “Exactly and quite honestly, that’s one of the worst things that can hurt you when you get that ground dry and start cracking and drying out.” Jack Pherson stated, “Time out, we run a ripper through all of our soil, our soil is not like concrete, it is like a sponge.” Engineer Frauhiger asked, “What about the rest of the watershed, do they rip theirs too?” Jack Pherson stated that they farm nearly everything around there except for Wayne Hunt’s and Wayne Hunt’s is all confined to his area. Engineer Frauhiger said his is all coming down toward you.


Engineer Frauhiger stated, “One of the problems you guys have is (Topo map placed on the desk), here is Dr. Tribbett’s property, see that area right here with dashes in it? That shows a depressional area. (Pherson’s response, “Right”.) And in this watershed you have depressional areas here; you have the big one on Dr. Tribbett’s property, and a small depressional area up here. This line right here approximates the location of one twelve inch tile, this one approximates the location of the other twelve inch tile, and they come and they meet someplace right about here. Then they head out and they outlet in the creek back here. What’s happening, see this area right here that I’m outlining in my ink pen, that’s about 82 acres. That’s 82 acres have to drain through those twelve inch tile or go overland down to this low area. We didn’t do this; this is the USGS Quad Map. They SHOW a low area in the middle of that field and lot of times that way they pick those up is not only by flying it but by areas that have been west historically in the past. Now, why it was bubbling out of the ground here, I don’t know. As a matter of fact, we had three professional engineers with over sixty years of experience run hydraulic calculations on that system and it shows that the hydraulic grade line, which is the water surface elevation, should be underground. But, that is assuming that no overland flow tries to get into that system. That’s assuming that it is all agricultural drainage, with six inch field tiles tiled into those twelves and into that fifteen and no ways for surface water to get in. But that’s not what we have here, we have a fifteen inch tile system and a twelve inch tile system which has numerous risers, numerous areas that surface water gets into it, and it’s just not meant to carry that. The correct size, if you wanted to try to take the surface water from this shed, would’ve been a thirty-six or forty-two inch pipe.”


Jack Pherson stated, “You’ve got your low hole right here, right across that is a ridge, there is no surface water ever runs directionally this way. Right here is CR 750, there is no surface water from this area that runs this way, there is very minimal amount of surface water that ever runs across this road. There was a little bit, about that much, going across that road. We got our ponding water coming out of this airwell right here and this CB-3. For some reason this tile right here is being fed more by these two twelve inch tiles, there’s pressure right there and it is going to relieve itself wherever the least amount of pressure is, and it is coming out here and here, and all you have done is engineer us a nice retention pond.”


Engineer Frauhiger drew in another structure that Mike Ezra put in and showed the ten inch chaser tile that he put in. He said, “Remember when Mike went out and put another structure in here and chased the flat potion of tile with a ten inch tile somet6hing like that? (meaning the ten inch chaser and Catch Basin 3.” Trent Pherson answered, “Roughly a thousand feet.” Engineer Frauhiger stated, “We can run a TV camera four hundred feet, so we won’t get it all but by dropping it into this structure we can come four hundred feet back this way and by dropping it in this structure we can come four hundred feet this way. So, we can get eight hundred feet of that tile TV’d. We are going to miss two hundred feet and the only way to get that two hundred feet is to come right in the middle of that run and dig down and expose it and drop the camera in there.”


Jack Pherson said, “The camera is fine, I don’t’ know if there’s anything wrong with hat tile or not. You talk to the drainage people and they look at me like ‘you’re nuts to run two twelve inch tiles into a fifteen. They say you either got these twelves too big or the fifteen is too small.” Engineer Frauhiger asked how long the existing system was in there. Jack Pherson answered a hundred years probably. Mr. Frauhiger said, “Unless Surveyor Rick Raderstorf was wrong, he told us that those two existing legs that came in were twelves and it was a fifteen from that point all the way down to the creek.” Trent said it was a fifteen inch smooth tile. Mr. Frauhiger said, “Right and twelve inch smooth coming in. So it was all apples to apples. I walked into the end of the conversation and our engineer was sitting with Rick (Raderstorf) and Rick said ‘we will match what is out there, I will put twelve inches in where there’s twelve inches and I’ll put fifteen in where there’s fifteen inch.”


Jack Pherson said, “If he was going to put back in the way it was, why is it on my property I’ve got a twelve inch running clear to the end and there was never a twelve inch there. The thing that goes through my mind, I hear about how you want to save money, so why did you spend all this money to hook on eight inch tile. We have an eight and a twelve hooked together and that eight inch tile, it went clear to CR 750.” Todd Frauhiger stated he wasn’t sure what he was talking about. Trent Pherson said, “You were in the twelve a lot farther up that what originally it ever was. Across this CR 750 if dropped from a twelve down to an eight.” Engineer Frauhiger stated that Rick Raderstorf told them it was a twelve all the way up. Trent Pherson said, “No, it never has been.”


Jack Pherson stated, “In this whole project, nobody ever came around to communicate to the people who were paying the bills ‘what are your needs here, what are your problems.’ Trent Pherson said, “Three years in a row now we have lost the crop out of the low land, we haven’t grained anything on this.” Jack said, “Like I’ve mentioned before, look at the other drainage systems around. They didn’t lose anything in that historic hundred year rain. The reason why we lost it was because it sat here and it bubbled up for two and a half days.” Trent showed where their other drainage systems are, just a quarter of a mile down the road and he said not a single plant was lost anywhere on them.


Engineer Frauhiger acknowledged an area on the map where a large amount of beans were lost. He said, “It appears, as you said before, that the low spot is probably a foot lower that inlet, wouldn’t you say?” Both Phersons agreed. Jack said, “Right, but there is a catch basin there and it is hooked into one of those twelve inch tiles but there again, it can’t drain until that twelve inch tile gets empty.” Engineer Frauhiger said, “Exactly, you know we are talking a hundred and sixty acre watershed with surface water being dumped into those twelves.” Jack Pherson said, “Here again, we’re talking here in this low hole, the majority of the water was put in there by it coming up out of that tile. Another thing is I cannot understand why you ran that Main into the side of the hill. Why is the old right of way but also I had an old friend and he told how they drained this county. It was pretty hard for them to shovel in a pond so they put the tile beside the pond and then trenched it to it.” Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Well, if you remember we were not out there during the construction observation (Jack Pherson expressed that nobody ever kept an eye on this thing), and quite honestly I never understood exactly what you were talking about until I went out there last week and saw your dead beans. Your dead beans are very obvious where that low spot was. When Rick Raderstorf and Ron Nolan surveyed this the corn was up and as a matter of fact it was so high up that they almost couldn’t get through it. Had it been beans they would’ve seen that low spot a lot easier. That tile could’ve been swung down to pick up that low spot. But, the reason that it was not, and the reason they put it there, in their defense, they were told, and Rick was told, that we will follow the route of the old clay (tile) and that is what they did. They straight lined from your old airwell and that’s where they put the thing. I know that Mike hit that old clay numerous times when he was putting the fifteen inch tile in. There’s pieces of it lying out there. So they followed along the existing route, could they have gone down and picked that low spot up? Yes, but that’s not where the old one is laying.”


Jack Pherson said, “We challenged Rick when he was out there, when that flag was there before they started, because they were going to come more in a straight line towards that thing. And we finally got Rick and ‘hey let’s get over here in the low place as much as we can’ and he started mentioning about the right-of-ways and all that and I kept saying ‘who cares about the right-of-ways we’ll just establish another’ and Dr. Tribbett didn’t care where it was, he just wanted the problem fixed out in there.”


Engineer Frauhiger said, “Well, these guys are living with it and they have the best information available. But, the bottom line is there is a low spot in the middle of that field that is shown in the USGS Quad Map. Even if we just assume that just from the edge of the road in this area, what would you say that is, twenty acres? Thirty acres?” Jack Pherson said, “There’s no more than twenty from that break in the hill towards the road.” Todd said, “So say, twenty acres draining down to that, well first of all, twenty acres draining into that is going to overburden the fifteen if it had nothing coming into the top of it, nothing at all. What the situation is here is you have the rest of the watershed, another hundred acres, serviced through two twelve inch tiles with surface risers in them and you have fifteen to twenty acres of water from this field all draining down into that low area. That fifteen was never meant to handle that, it just can’t handle that.” Trent said, “That’s what we want to now, why was it put in there if it can’t handle it.” Todd said, “They matched the existing and I’m sorry that you guys are having more problems down here, but we haven’t heard a peep from the rest of the watershed.” Trent said that’s because they are the bulk of it. He said that Wayne Hunt just can’t see his low spots yet but he will see them this fall.


Engineer Frauhiger said, “Wayne Hunt bird-dogged this project, he sat in the second row at one meeting and (Jack Pherson interrupted saying that Wayne Hunt made unrealistic statements) I am sure that I heard him at one of the public hearing when we said a fifteen inch is big enough to drain that. These twelve inch and fifteen inch tiles were not a surprise, it was on the plans, it was in the ground existing and it was discussed numerous times, It wasn’t surprising anybody.” Jack Pherson said that Wayne Hunt gave a price on (installing) some fifteen inch tile that everybody just shook their head because it was very unrealistic. Jack said, “My challenge is what is going to be done to stop Dr. Tribbett’s land from becoming a retention pond when we get these three inch rains. You were out there one other time and saw it do it.” Todd said, “Right, and it was another big rain. For instance, what happened this Spring? Did it keep up fairly well then?” Trent said he couldn’t remember. Jack said it isn’t doing what it is supposed to. Todd said, “Well, we didn’t hear anything from the time that it went in, in March, that ten inch chaser, we hadn’t heard a thing about this until we got the five inch rain so I don’t know. I didn’t go out and look because we hadn’t heard anything.” Jack said it is loaded to capacity with a two inch rain. Todd said, “You bet it is, because I can guarantee that a two inch rain from 160 acre shed will definitely overfill the capacity of a fifteen inch pipe.”


Jack Pherson asked, “How much water goes through this thing on a two inch rain without very few laterals? Let’s say out of this 160 acres there is twenty acres of laterals that goes in there, how much water goes through there? There’s very little.”


Chairman Schmierer asked Trent how far it is from the outlet to Catch Basin 3 (inaudible on tape). Trent answered about fifteen hundred feet. He said that fifteen hundred feet goes well through the middle of that depression. Engineer Frauhiger said, “When Mike put the chaser tile in he put a coil of pipe in, 600 feet? (Trent said 500 feet.) So you probably have a thousand feet between the fifteen inch tile and where the fifteen and the ten take off.” Chairman Schmierer asked what do you have from where the ten kicks back into the fifteen to the outlet? Trent answered 500 feet. Engineer Frauhiger said, “And at that particular point you have the fifteen and you have the ten.”


Trent Pherson asked, “What was the water level where the fifteen dumps into that riser where the fifteen and the ten takes off? What was the water level in that when you were out there, do you remember? I didn’t measure it; I could see the top of the ten inch.” Surveyor Sterrett stated that it was half a foot over. Jack Pherson said there were both running full. Todd said, “You would’ve expected that. If I remember right the ten inch came in about a foot and a half higher than the flow line of the fifteen.” Trent Pherson said, “We wanted to load the fifteen first, so the top of the fifteen was the bottom of the ten.” Todd said that was right, a little less than a foot and a half. Trent said you wanted to fill the fifteen first, that’s ho we got the .3 grade. Todd said, “So you probably had maybe two and a half or three foot of water in that structure because you had a foot and a half and then you were over the top.”


Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That’s where we are. We have a low spot in that field…” Chairman Schmierer asked where the riser is. Trent showed him at the edge of the low spot. Chairman Schmierer said what he wants to know is where the riser is where the drowning out occurred and where the ten inch tile starts. Jack Pherson and Engineer Frauhiger answered that it is a thousand feet away, upstream and the ten inch is way down. He said, “Yes, you have roughly a thousand feet and then you have five hundred, if you remember right, that ten inch chaser was put in because you had roughly five hundred feet of pipe that had a flat spot in it. How many places did we dig that up? (Jack thought for or five) Nobody can sit here and say for absolute sure that there aren’t other spots in that thousand feet that are flat. It won’t make any difference because head pressure is going to pull it through, but as we were digging you could follow the trench along very well and remember there was one area where none of us could figure out exactly what we were looking at?” Trent thought, “We should’ve been past that point though.” Todd said, “That ten inch should go past that, none of us could figure it out, but the ten inch chaser got past that. In that thousand feet there, that’s why, there’s maintenance money in the fund. You guys said all along there were no rocks taken out (Phersons said “the first time”). There is a chance that within that thousand feet you could have, because all it would take is a section a foot wide, a section crushed there.”


Trent Pherson said, “What we want to know, those two twelves, what their flow rates are and what the flow rate of that fifteen is.” Engineer Frauhiger said, “Right, it’s not that simple though I can tell you it is roughly 1 CFS, 1 CFS and just about 2 CFS. But you have to remember that’s seven or eight feet below the ground, so we wanted to make sure the hydraulic grade line stayed below the surface so we can put six foot of head on that fifteen before we come out of the ground. And also we have discussed this numerous times, in that structure where those two twelves come together, if you remember, it was .6 or .5 high, it was higher than it was supposed to be, so we don’t have as much head pressure to play with. When did our calculations first of all, we did it based on what was supposed to be built and the second time we did them on what was actually built.” Trent Pherson asked what the .5 or .6 meant. Engineer Frauhiger answered, “It reduces the amount of head pressure you can put on that fifteen inch tile before it comes out of the ground by a half a foot.” Trent asked, “But that half a foot, percent or…” Todd answered, “I wouldn’t knock it by twenty percent, but all that has to happen if you bring that fifteen up a half a foot all you have to do is get water coming out of the top of that casting by two inches and it is going to flood that low spot.” Jack Pherson said that is basically what is happening out of that big one and the one at CR 750, that six inch one, it comes up out of it. Todd explained, “The reason that one comes up out up here I’m sure is because as soon as it starts coming out and flooding this area, you get a tail water effect on this twelve inch and that’s what causes it to come out here.”


Jack Pherson said, “What I see, the one comes out of Wayne Hunt’s, it has the most pressure and it does the most draining first. And then, the one that goes through mine is basically the last one to start going.” Engineer Frauhiger stated, “When this project was start Wayne (Hunt) had a terrible flooding problem. Rick and I were out there at times you could see off in the distance water was standing before the project was built, so you’re probably exactly right, we’ve relieved that, because I know that had there been flooding up on Wayne’s property we would’ve heard about it numerous times by now.” Trent Pherson said, “Well, we’re taking his water now.” Todd said, "Exactly because we made that twelve inch much more efficient." That broken down twelve inch that was existing, when you put a new tile in your move more water. Unfortunately someone is always at the bottom of the hill and in this case Dr. Tribbett’s property is at the bottom of the hill with a hole in it.” Jack Pherson said you have got to be able to take care of that water. Engineer Frauhiger answered, “There is no pipe that you could put in the ground that is going to handle every rain storm you get out there, right? Because even open ditches, you could put an open ditch down though there and at times that open ditch would overflow.” Jack Pherson said don’t even mention open ditch.


Jack Pherson stated that on the old Hinshaw Burch farm the drainage system in there never loses a crop. Todd said whenever you see a low area marked on a USGS Quad Map you immediately know you have drainage problems in that area. He said we can drain it but it all goes back to how much money you want to spend. Jack Pherson said the majority of the people except for Wayne Hunt said cost was not the object, solution was the object. Todd said that the majority of the people were quiet, because all I remember from those public meetings is Mr. Hunt.


Trent Pherson said that the drainage on Dr. Tribbett’s property is worse now than it was with the hundred year old tile. Engineer Frauhiger said, “I think the whole reason some of that is happening is the twelve inches were broken down, especially the one going up Hunt’s property, so then you suddenly put a good twelve inch in up there and you let that water go and it goes downhill. I don’t know what you can do about it, guys. There’s a hole there, there is a pipe big enough but I really don’t know if anybody wants to bear that cost. And, that is what was in the ground for a hundred years. I don’t know how long it was working. It obviously wasn’t working when they did the project.”


Jack Pherson said, “in other words, in your drainage philosophy, we should stay with what we’ve got, even though the meteorological society says our rains are going to be bigger and heavier and our dryness is going to be longer and dryer in the next one hundred years. You don’t think about any of that stuff?” Engineer Frauhiger answered, “Yes, we do, trust me; we have done a lot more projects than just this small project here. As a matter of fact, at two o’clock this afternoon I am putting a proposal in on a $160,000 drainage study. We know what we’re doing, we’ve done it all over the state, in this particular situation we had an existing tile, we were told by our client this the size of tile that is going in, and our client Rick will back me up on that, he said it, we were sitting at a conference table. He said will it work? And we did the hydraulic calculations and said yes, it will work per these plans it won’t come out of the ground, and he said that’s what I want.”


Jack Pherson said, “If we have to stay to our existing thing, then why are we paying you people?” Engineer Frauhiger answered, “Well, at that particular time you didn’t have a registered County Surveyor. There was a question raised earlier by Ron and I when we talked last week, and did you know, Ron that on the Ackerman Drain and on Carter-Hines I did the calculations and showed them to Denny (Sterrett, County Surveyor) between thirty-four and thirty-nine percent of the cost for those projects were surveying because at that particular point we didn’t have a registered surveyor out there. Same with this particular one, you didn’t have a registered surveyor in the County (office) and by State Law when you expend public money on a reconstruction project it has to be designed and stamped by a registered engineer. That registered engineer has to take into account the wishes of his client and the wishes of his client in this particular case…we told Rick that it would work. There was a fifteen inch pipe existing, it’s a fifteen inch pipe now, it was designed to stay underground, but everyone knew all along that there was a problem right there with that low spot and to get the water out of that low spot…it would’ve worked great for you guys, suppose we were to come in and say look, we’ll put in a twenty-four inch pipe from this point downstream and we’ll bring two twelves into a twenty-four. I can tell you what would’ve happened during the public hearing.” Jack Pherson said, “At least you would’ve been truthful.” Engineer Frauhiger said, “We WERE truthful.” Jack Pherson said, “Why are you saying everybody knows what would happen?” Todd answered, “Because I know what happened when we tried to put, you know just on that. You guys were sitting here, too.” Jack said, “But you keep saying ‘as soon as you see that low hole you know what’s going to happen with that fifteen in there’. Why didn’t you stand up and say…” Todd answered, “I said that low hole will drain away. I tell you what; you probably had fifteen functioning before the project was done from that low spot on down to the creek that fifteen was probably functioning. Correct? (Response “very slowly”) Ok, very slowly, but the upstream water…the people that got the most benefit out of this project by far are the people at the top of the hill.” Jack said, “I agree with that, but still an eighteen or a twenty-one would still keep that water from boiling out of there.” Todd answered, “I don’t know if it would.”


Board Member Heimlich stated, “What I am hearing, I thought you said that it shouldn’t boil out of there with the fifteen inch pipe.” Engineer Frauhiger said that is correct. Board Member Heimlich said, “But it is. According to you we still have a problem some place, or it shouldn’t be coming out of the ground.” Engineer Frauhiger said, “We just confirmed those calculations again before Dave Finley wrote his letter. Now if it actually comes out of the ground, where those two twelves come together, which you guys said it was, I knew that it comes out up on the road that didn’t surprise me, but it does surprise me if it comes out of the ground where the two twelves come together, you guys said it did. That’s why I mentioned a little bit ago there’s maintenance money and they ought to TV that pipe.”


Surveyor Sterrett asked, “Did you see it coming out of the top of the…” Trent said he walked the bean field after it rained that day or the next day and it was still coming out of CB3, boiling out. Jack stated that is where the majority of their damage was coming from because for two and a half days it flooded. He said, “I understand that catch basin that is in there, a small one, it can’t drain anything until the branch from Wayne Hunt gets released. We just keep adding for two and half days until that gets gone.” Trent added, “And I’m talking the water level above CB3, the water level was at a minimum of six inches, I’m not going to say it was a foot but it was a minimum of six inches over the top of CB3 and just boiling.” Todd said, “And see, we lost six inches because that fifteen was put in a half a foot higher. That’s what I’m saying, all it takes is an inch to come out of the top of that structure and it is going to flood that low area. So, I guess at this particular point, there’s absolutely zero way to dig every inch of that up and check and see if it has a bad place in it. (Jack said he understands) So, when you TV a tile, which I think you have TV’d tiles before, you can see where it gets off grade, you can see where there’s dips and humps in it, and you can easily see if a rock got pushed on the top of it. All it takes is one six inch area where a rock goes down and knocks off half of the capacity of the tile and there’s absolutely no way to see that unless you TV it.”


At this point Chairman Schmierer asked if there was maintenance money in the Brechbiel fund. Surveyor Sterrett went to the office to find out.


Jack Pherson said, “If there was a rock cutting half of that file off, is there enough water to be able to go under where that rock was to fill that fifteen that’s flat plus that then inch chaser?” Trent added, “Because we’re filling these at that catch basin.” Todd said, “I would say there still is and I had the same guy instinct that you did when Denny showed me that picture. I was surprised that there was only four foot of water downstream, and you guys thought originally that there was someplace that pipe was crushed, that’s what you were out there digging it up for.” Jack stated, “All I know is I recall one time walking by that trench where he (Mike Ezra) had dug out two rocks and they were laying over here on a wedge next to that tile down in like a little sub trench and we never did find those two big rocks. Any other drainage project we were always responsible for picking up rocks. We didn’t pick up any rock.”


Engineer Frauhiger said, “That has been stated numerous times, too. Could a rock have gotten back in the trench and decreased the capacity of that fifteen? There’s only on way to tell. There is absolutely no way that you can tell without dropping a camera down in there and checking it out. If it actually comes out, which I have no reason to believe it doesn’t, but if it actually comes out where those two twelves come together, there is a problem downstream. But, the only place I have ever seen it come out is at the twelve by the County Road. Now I have seen it flooded out there before but when I see it come out the twelve by the County Road, it goes overland and flows through your crops down to that low spot. (Phersons agreed) And that’s where I don’t know if it’s, I could never get out to it.” Trent said it is pretty impressive to see a thirty-six inch structure boiling water out. Jack stated, “There again, like the twelve inch, who’s to say between the road and the CB3…you know, there will always be that question on my mind. Where all the others I have been able to walk away and say man, that thing works good.”


Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I think the thing that we have talked about before, when you put a tile project in the ground you have to check grade as you go. Because, if you don’t check the grade as you go, after the fact there’s only certain places you can check it.” Jack stated, I challenged Mike the first day out there he started cutting this up, I said don’t anybody ever check this? He said they know the quality of the work I do and they believe me. On all the others (projects), Jim Milligan was the Surveyor and he would show up out there.”


Surveyor Sterrett returned to the meeting and reported there is $653.00 in the Brechbiel Maintenance Fund and the assessments total $536.00 a year. Someone asked what it would cost to TV the tile. Todd said he thought in Wolcott on the Unroe project we were getting about $1.00 a foot. He said between what we have in maintenance and what the new draw would be, it would about cover TV-ing it. Engineer Frauhiger said that cost was sending someone up from Indianapolis, maybe there is someone in this area. It was suggested that the City of Monticello may have a camera. It was mentioned that none of this can be done until the crops are off.


Trent said they have a decision to make, they want to hook some laterals into this system but it is going to be a waste of money because it isn’t working right. He thinks they should send water to another system, not into this system. Engineer Frauhiger said he was out there in the spring when it was wet, and it was dry a couple of days after a rain, so you’re still going to dry that out, even sending it to that fifteen. Trent said he didn’t want to send anymore water down that way until they see what happens. He said they have very minimal laterals hooked into the Brechbiel system. Todd said that tells you where all the water is coming from. Todd said, “So you have twenty acres of water just from that field going to that low spot and getting to that inlet. You have the two twelves coming from upstream, and you’ve got the fifteen inch that more water gets to than it can carry and that is what is causing it to come out of that structure.”


Trent Pherson stated, “My gut instinct is not to send anymore water to this system, send it to another system, because this system will not handle it.” Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I have seen it done in Hancock County numerous times, where you have a low area like that, you have water coming out of the tile because you have upstream water coming down they put a breather a solid wall breather out of the ground a foot and go ahead and put the cap on the top of it. What that does then if you have a low spot, come out to your low spot, put your own riser in, tie it to the fifteen. By putting a one foot stub pipe out of the ground it keeps the water from coming out and boiling out at that point, but the only way to drain that low spot is when the fifteen is past capacity you pull it off or you have your own breather that comes back into that fifteen or into that structure. You go out into the middle of the low spot and you tile. In that case you probably wouldn’t’ tile more than a hundred feet and put a breather out in the middle of that low spot. I have seen that done and you can make it so you can pull the thing off.”


Trent Pherson said, “I have actually thought about somehow trying to get, I had no idea how to cap that thirty-six off with that other six inch riser coming out of that twelve of the branch.” Todd said, “That is easy to do, too. Just put a solid ball riser on it six or right inches.” Trent said, “I didn’t know by putting an extension on that if the water would just keep coming up on it.” Todd said, “No, eventually hit the point, and I’ll bet you will be surprised, you come up six inches and it won’t come out of the top. I’ve also seen, you could put a piece of plywood with a concrete brick on the top of it and that would be enough to keep that pressure underground. You just have a lot of water coming from upstream through those two twelve inch pipes and the fifteen can handle it, but you’re also trying to introduce surface water.”


Board Member Heimlich stated, “But, if you say your calculations say it shouldn’t be coming out of there, then I assume you checked and rechecked those calculations. There’s something else wrong then.” Engineer Frauhiger said, “That’s correct. But, even if that fifteen isn’t crushed in there, if you try to dump twenty acres of surface water in there then you do have a problem because you have two twelves coming together, you have a trash rack on top of a thirty, thirty-six inch riser dumping twenty acres of surface water down there and all that trying to drain through a fifteen.”


Board Member Heimlich stated, “I understand that, but Jack is saying that a lot of that water came because it was boiling out at that point.” Jack Pherson said, “You know, we are trying to imagine that a lot of surface water runs, but water amount of rain we had we saw very little erosion. So we know we had it…inaudible…it was soaking in, but we didn’t see the erosion problem.” Engineer Frauhiger said, “It looks like the majority of your beans were lost just right in that low area weren’t they?” Jack said that is just wet all the time and sudden death set in there real bad. Trent Pherson said, “CB3 will not take surface water because it is up on the side of the hill. I took surface water this time because it got high enough, so it took a little bit until the water level dropped.” Engineer Frauhiger asked, “How does that low area turn to land in a two inch rain?” Jack answered, “Fairly decent.” Todd asked, “And how does it get in?” Trent answered, “Laterals, short runs of laterals.” Todd said, “And I didn’t see a breather out in the middle of that dead area.” Jack and Trent both said there is. Todd said it had to be oiling out of there. Trent said it was too deep for him to walk out there so he doesn’t know. Todd asked, “Is there at least a foot and a half down to that low area, difference in elevation?” Trent said probably more than that. Jack thought a foot. Todd said looking from the road you can definitely see it is at least a foot or foot and a half and he wouldn’t be surprised it right out in the middle it is a little lower. He said he didn’t see the breather out there. Trent said there’s actually a couple out there. Jack said there’s another one to the West. Surveyor Sterrett asked where they go. Trent answered that the one to the West hooks into the fifteen inch tile and the other two hook into the twelves, then there’s one at the road so actually there are four airwell, four surface drains, there’s three that hook into the twelves and one into the fifteen. Engineer Frauhiger stated, “And that’s the way you have to do it, again we just have two more points of surface water connection on the twelves. It’s just like that throughout the system. I think at one point we even talked to them about taking them out, we even had downspouts from buildings upstream connected directly into that twelve that I think Rick got taken out.” Jack Pherson said his tool sheds are hooked in to it, they run into a six inch tile.” Todd said, “Again, areas of surface water connected in.”


Jack Pherson stated, “You people need to start thinking about the future because in 25 to 30 years that could be a housing addition. I would like to have marketable asset when that day comes, the drainage plans in place, start building.” Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That definitely is not a system built for commercial development or residential development. So, that’s why we’re here guys. It would make sense to me since we have two points to get in there, to check with the City and have that one section of the fifteen inch tile TV’d.” Trent asked, “What do we do about that two hundred feet in the middle? Wait on what you find on the four hundred and while you are there, because it would be easier if you do go digging, you may want to just go ahead and slide all the way to the edge of that two hundred upstream because it will be a lot shallower to dig and camera it toward the outlet on that two hundred feet in the middle (Todd said go downstream on it.) That way you’re not digging as deep so it’s a little cheaper. Engineer Frauhiger stated, “In the future, even if we find a rock on that tile, just so it is clear here, that tile is not meant to carry a hundred year storm away, they’re just not designed for that. They’re designed by the ten year return period. They’re just not designed to carry a five inch rain away.”


Chairman Schmierer said, “Alright, we’ll try that and keeping working on it.”


Discussion followed about checking with the City to see if they have a camera and Surveyor Sterrett said we will probably have to hire a backhoe so he will check with the County Highway Department to see if we can use theirs. Engineer Frauhiger asked how deep it would be. Trent Pherson guessed over five foot.


Engineer Frauhiger stated he received a submittal for a drainage permit from the engineer for Twin Lakes School for some bleachers (correction: dug outs, concessions) concrete and new asphalt parking area. He told them because of the complex nature of the project and their calculations showing no detention required he ahs postponed approval of it until the next meeting. He said he left a message for the engineer telling him that.


Chairman Schmierer adjourned the meeting.