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July 15, 2013

The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:30 A. M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana. Board members present were: Chairman Steve Burton, Drainage Board Member John Heimlich and Drainage Board Member David Diener. Also present were Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Bradley E. Ward and Drainage Assistant Mary E. Sterrett.

Also in attendance were:

B. J. Propes-White County Highway Department Tony Cain

Sharon Watson-White County Soil and Water David Thomas

Mike Kyburz-White County Highway Department Dale Lehe

Bill McClean Jeff Smith

Dick Bol David Jordan

Catherine Florman Don Deno

Robert Holland Brent Balkema

Todd Frauhiger, AECOM Engineer

The July15, 2013 White County Drainage Board was called to order by Chairman Steve Burton.

The first item on the agenda was to approve the minutes from the July 1, 2013 White County Drainage Board Meeting. Board Member John Heimlich so moved. Board Member David Diener seconded the motion. Motion carried.

Drainage Review for Jordan Manufacturing Addition moved from 3rd on the written agenda to 2nd on the agenda. (Computer generated plan shown)

Todd Frauhiger presented the review for Jordan Manufacturing Addition to the White County Drainage Board the following:

Basically it is addition to the existing building. The area of the new building going in is mostly gravel right now. There will be an addition to the new building. A new parking lot or new area toward the end of the building which I think is going to be a gravel parking lot area. All the downspouts to the new addition are tied in underground in to the existing pond. The discharges on the existing pond are what we approved when the plant was constructed. They were held so it would meet the Drainage Ordinance. The pond has currently two (2) feet of free board of the one hundred (100) year storm. The proposal is to put this water into the existing pond. Make no changes to the outlet. Keep the current allowable discharges the same. We are going to use about a quarter (¼) of a foot our free board. So the one hundred (100) year storm now instead of having two (2) foot of free board we will have one point seven five (1.75) of free board which I do not have a problem with. I have done a site visit, reviewed the calculations and spoke to Titan a couple of times, the Engineers that put the plans together. I am ready to recommend approval.

Chairman Burton asked Surveyor Ward his opinion. Surveyor Ward replied that he was comfortable with it.

Board Member Diener made a motion to approve the Drainage Plan for Jordan Manufacturing Addition 52. 5 K. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. Motion carried.

Next on the agenda-Approve Petition for Maintenance on the Walter Chapman Drain #521

(Viewing a computer generated map)

Surveyor Ward presented to the Board:

1. Shared drain with Jasper County

2. Petition carried by Todd Redlin - Richel Enterprises has the majority of the acreage in the

water shed.

3. Location of the drain explained to the Board, near Rose Acres.

Board Member Heimlich made a motion to approve & accept the Petition for Maintenance of the Walter Chapman Drain #521. Board Member Diener seconded the motion. Motion carried.

Next on the agenda-E. M. Ferguson Tile Drain #691 Informational Meeting

Surveyor Ward presented to the Board: Tony Cain has been out to the E. M. Ferguson Drain #691. He has cameraed the tile awhile back and again on Friday. He has some input to the situation. Todd and I have kind of brain stormed some possibilities of things that would be cheaper alternatives. I don’t know if they are better alternatives but they are cheaper. I will let the Board make that decision. Which direction do you want to go first.

Tony Cain: I have been working on or repairing this tile for over ten (10) years. Every year we go out there and do something. It is just broken fifteen (15) inch clay tile that we always replace. In some areas where there are tree roots, up in the woody area. We have replaced one hundred (100) feet to two hundred (200) foot at a time to get rid of tree roots. The biggest problem is that the tiles are just misaligned, the ones that aren’t broke. When you have tile that moves in that sand that restricts flow. On the north side of State Highway 18 it goes through sand hill. We have had to fix that once out there and that was just a total mess. Those tiles are just so far off that has to restrict flow and they are sucking sand continuously. To the south, south of Highway 18, we hardly ever have to work on it. With the camera we found a field rock in the tile just south of County Road 300 at twenty (20) to thirty (30) feet. We did dig that out and pulled it out. One (1) of the biggest issues is under State Highway 18 that stretch, whatever it is twenty (20) or thirty (30) feet. It is probably a foot off grade. It is to high, compared to the east side of the highway.

Chairman Burton: Is it off north and south?

Tony Cain: North and south are on grade. It is what is under the highway that is off grade.

Chairman Burton: For clarification, where it enters the highway and exits the highway is one (1) end off that much or are both ends off that much?

Tony Cain: Both ends are off.

Dick Bol: How high?

Tony Cain: My estimate is about a foot, could be fourteen (14) inches, and could be eleven (11) inches. I have no way of judging or measuring except the water level. When we put the camera in the fifteen (15) inch tile on the north side of the road is basically full, twelve (12), thirteen (13), to fifteen (15) inches of water. When we put the camera in it just goes up and levels off and there is not that much water in that tile. What that tile does from that point south does it still have belly in it? That is hard to judge, every time we dig it up it is full of water for the most part.

Todd Frauhiger: The good thing is that portion that Tony is talking about is in the INDOT right-of-way. That repair can be borne by INDOT without any cost to the watershed, the structures on both-sides and new tile in the middle, right-of-way to right-of-way.

Tony Cain: When we shoot elevations from over the years we put more what we call air wells or stand pipes in the system. Not only to let it breathe or do whatever it wants to do but we do it for inspection. We have checked elevations with a laser from the highway clear to the north there into the woody area there on Watkins it is on a tenth grade. But what the tile is doing between there and there I don’t know. It has got to be everywhere.

Chairman Burton: You said you repaired it on the east side of County Road 300. Is the grade that the tile is at, not the highway, from there south sufficient, from State Highway 18 to the outlet?

Tony Cain: Yes, there is probably a problem somewhere south of State Highway 18 but you would have to dig up the whole thousand (1,000) feet to check it. There is some standing water in there just south of the highway but it still shoots at a tenth grade from there to County Road 300.

Todd Frauhiger: One (1) more thing to mention. The video that was I think just south of County Road 300 maybe a little north at the time first video was done the tile was flowing. We could see the tile flowing with good, good flow. It is definitely not a break in the tile.

Chairman Burton: Where I am going with this is the first thing that really needs to done is where it crosses State Highway 18. Because nothing will make a difference south if the highway is off.

Tony Cain: Fixing State Highway 18 will not fix anything to the south but it will help to the north.

Chairman Burton: To the south there is water moving to deal with it.

Tony Cain Continued: The optimum thing would be I think they are going to suggest is to start at the head wall and lay a new tile. They needed to cut back on some investment. If we started just south of County Road 300 a little bit we can gain a foot of depth at a tenth grade by the time we get to the highway. If we put everything on a tenth we would be a foot lower than what the existing tile is at State Highway 18 which in theory would still be a foot lower as we continue on north.

Board Member Diener: Are you thinking that should be done prior to notifying the Highway to lower that pipe to gain that grade which then will help everything north of State Highway 18. We want to get that tile as low as we can there?

Tony Cain: Yes, you need to bring a new tile up from the south first, stop at State Highway 18. Get that new drain under State Highway 18 done and then continue from there.

Dale Lehe: With a fifteen (15)?

Tony Cain: That is what they are proposing, yes.

Dale Lehe: What is existing?

Tony Cain: Fifteen (15), just south of County Road 300 it turns into an odd size. It is bigger than a fifteen (15) it is hard to measure when they crack and move. It is a sixteen (16) or seventeen (17) inch right there. Todd Frauhiger: What we are talking about and this will be the first time people have heard this. Knowing that some of that tile north is offset somewhat and we know there is a root problem. We know there is a problem at State Road 18 and we know we have good flow south of State Road 18. The size of the tile, especially north, is under sized anyway. Since the video showed good flow at all points. Actually north of State Road 18, I was surprised, we have good quality tile. It is just when you get to the upstream end you are talking six (6) to ten (10) inch tile which is extremely small. One (1) option which would be a lot less expensive and I have done this in other counties also. Is to parallel the existing tile with a trenched in new tile. Split half (½) the water shed off to the existing tile leave the other half (½) of the water shed on the existing tile. Put the half (½) you split off on to the new tile. Basically we double up the capacity. We don’t use smooth core double wall any more, we just do a trenched in tile to save some money. Everyone gets a benefit. Even south of State Road 18 because half (½) of their water would come off the existing tile and go into the new tile. So, at the outlet instead of having a single eighteen (18) you would have an eighteen (18) and a fifteen (15). You are looking at possibly running a fifteen (15) all the way up. The other thing if we could stage the thing. We could say most of our problem is north of State Road 18. We trench in a parallel tile just north and we tie them both together at State Road 18 or we just trench in a new tile north, fifteen (15) all the way up. Abandon the existing tile completely put everything into the new tile up stream. If you do that, just rough costs, the cost drops considerably may be down to one hundred and twenty-five dollars ($125.00) to one hundred and fifty dollars ($150.00) an acre. If we just concentrate upstream. If you put a parallel tile in the entire length and split the water shed. Half (½) of it into the new tile and half (½) of it into the old tile you are probably up some place to like two hundred and fifty dollars ($250.00) maybe two hundred and seventy-five dollars ($275.00) an acre. Which is still considerably more attractive than six hundred dollars ($600.00) or seven hundred dollars ($700.00) an acre that we talking double walled, excavated in and bedded. Those are just some options that Brad and I kicked around and talked about. Different ways that we may do things most cost effectively. Regardless at State Road 18 needs to be fixed. If the decision would be made to run that parallel outlet tile all the way up to the upstream end you have got two (2) tiles under State Road 18. Both of which would be paid by INDOT. The new tile would be paid by INDOT and you would not pay an assessment on it. The existing tile is currently off grade which would also be paid by INDOT and corrected. So both those pieces would be paid by State funds.

Unknown: Did you say there is another twelve (12) inch close to the fifteen (15)?

Tony Cain: There is a twelve (12) inch on the south side of State Road 18 on Lehes. It is a higher elevation and it stops at State Road 18 and does not cross. It is way too high to continue on. Where it ties to the south we do not know. It does not cross the road as far as we know. It has to tie in the existing fifteen (15) somewhere.

Dick Bol: How did the tile under State Road 18 ever get off? It is off and the other stuff on each side is right?

Tony Cain: We assume. It looks like a replacement at some time or another under the highway.

Todd Frauhiger: My guess is I don’t remember a highway cut there, so if it was replaced they probably bored under. They probably just got off with the bore.

Tony Cain: It was not bored. It is a clay type material. It had to be back before most of our times.

Dick Bol: The tile on south of that is not a foot lower you are saying?

Tony Cain: It is a little lower right there just on the south side. It didn’t have to much water in it. Somewhere it corrects itself further south. You would have to install a new pipe to the south to get a foot lower.

Todd Frauhiger: That is the one (1) reason we are talking about a parallel because we do have cover issues upstream.

Chairman Burton: Again the cost. The one hundred and twenty-five dollars ($125.00) to one hundred and fifty dollars ($150.00) an acre here would be?

Todd Frauhiger: Just replacing it upstream tile with a fifteen (15) and twelve (12) inch tile towards the upstream end. You would replace the existing tile parallel, just replace it.

Chairman Burton: That would be using the existing tile south of State Road 18?

Todd Frauhiger: That is correct.

Chairman Burton: Then the next jump up would be?

Todd Frauhiger: To go ahead and run a parallel tile from the outlet all the way up to the inlet and to split the watershed. Obviously on whichever side you ran the tile you split off would be taken in the new tile and the old tile would take the other half (½) of the water.

Chairman Burton: The suggested cost would be?

Todd Frauhiger: Two hundred and seventy-five dollars ($275.00) an acre.

Tony Cain: I might add the tile under County Road 300 is off grade. It is to low. If you look in that air well there is always a foot of water in it. When you camera it to the south it gets lesser and lesser pretty quick.

Chairman Burton: We need input. No official action will be taken today this is just a meeting to get information out there. Obviously we are going to a make the decision. But obviously you are the land owners. It does open up new door as far as the suggested parallel. The question would be if it would make a difference on the grade if we just do north of State Road 18. If we come down and hook on the existing grade then find out that you have got enough water flow down there that downstream will not handle it. If you lower that grade verses the option of running it all the way. If you have a lower tile with below surface lack of depth issues verses taking that out of the equation.

Dale Lehe: You say there are two (2) tiles lying together north of the headwall? Are you still proposing to split those apart?

Surveyor Ward: Yes, I would think that would need to be part of the project or maybe a separate work order somewhere. If we don’t do anything now it is something we need to look at. I think you are putting pressure on both those tiles. That could be some of the problem. The routine maintenance on it is the pressure on it.

Dale Lehe: That is going to free up some flow on both sides. Are those both eighteen or not?

Surveyor Ward: I think where it out lets is probably a thirty (30) or a thirty-six (36). I think it is two (2) eighteen or seventeen or whatever odd ball size. That pipe is at least a thirty-six (36) at the headwall.

Dale Lehe: We were down there and measured it. I don’t think it is a thirty-six (36). That goes quite a ways.

Surveyor Ward: Yes, couple hundred feet probably.

Tony Cain: We have never fixed where they are tied together it has always been two (2) separate tiles.

Dave Thomas: What about that on the north end where that dip is ….. deep… in-audible……….

Todd Frauhiger: We were talking about different alignments. Stay away from that sand hill.

Tony Cain: I would suggest that we avoid that sand hill. We still can don’t get me wrong. We still can but it would not be as deep of a cut if we go over to the west and then go north. That ground over there down seven (7) or six (6) feet is not good dirt. It is just wet you can dig for two (2) or three (3) hours just to replace a broken tile. It is a little bit better in August or September but we still have problems.

Board Member Diener: All these options from the very beginning one (1) to do these are very expensive to you land owners. You have to pay these. So, somebody needs to speak up and offer us some guidance to your desires of what you are willing to pay, if anything. Which option you think we are not wasting money of rest of this area that is in this water shed. When you start talking replacement from the south and lowering the one under State Road 18, which probably would be the most beneficial. That is obviously where you get more expense involved here.

Dick Bol: There needs to be something, I would think, to decide who gets the most benefit out of it. As I have said before I wouldn’t feel like it would be right the people south of State Road 18 who really don’t have a problem. I don’t know how you do that but you guys made some comment before where you worked out those who benefit the most pays a higher percentage of it. I don’t know what that percentage would be or anything like that but I think that should be in the equation

Tony Cain: Is there anyone here representing north of the Watkins’ ground?

Surveyor Ward: The O’Farrell’s could not make it today. (Gunther Farm Tenants)

Catherine Florman:In-audible…I have never been involved in anything like this. I don’t know what to expect in terms as destruction to the land and fences that need to come down…. In-audible.

Tony Cain: You are on the east end of Watkins? Where the trees are in the marshy area is there, across from Sullivans? You probably will not be affected there at all. It is all on Watkins there.

Chairman Burton: You are being notified because your water technically drains to that so what they are saying is that it probably doesn’t cross your property. You are still apart of this because you are assessed in that area.

Catherine Florman: We certainly have a lot of standing water.

Chairman Burton: When we started this where we were embedding the tile. Where was that first figure per acre?

Surveyor Ward: Five hundred dollars ($500.00) or six hundred dollars ($600.00) per acre.

Chairman Burton: I hate use the word good but at least now we talking at least half (½) of that, still had a cure for the problem or a much cheaper. The risk of the much cheaper idem is if we get in there and it has issues. Did we gain anything with that money? Again this is an informational meeting so we are just putting this out here in these discussions it needs to simulate back out to people. If when we choose to have the official meeting to try to move forward on this that people don’t walk in and say well, I didn’t know this or I would rather have done this without an input. At the public meeting they would still have the opportunity to express that. I would sure hope when people enter in to that meeting that there are discussions before that, whatever the subject is.

Surveyor Ward: Option one (1) was seven hundred and ten dollars ($710.00) per acre. There were a couple options off of that. We were down to four hundred dollars ($400.00) at the very low end.

Chairman Burton: Brad has in the minutes that it was roughly seven hundred and ten dollars ($710.00) an acre. The lowest option off of that was four hundred dollars ($400.00) an acre. I hate to use the word progress but I think we are going down a better road here. Maybe it is just a matter of which of these two (2) options is the best choice.

Dale Lehe: I agree with Dave now with his comment. With your paralleling line you are going to get another foot grade. I guess my point of view would be probably north of State Road 18…in-audible………, I understand. I think we all agree something needs to be done. If there is cost of benefits thing that comes into play. Maybe from the head wall on would be more appealing to us. I don’t know about the people south but if I had all the water setting there I would be very anxious to get something done too.

Chairman Burton: I have not been involved with many benefited costs. Is there a rule of thumb that is used in percentage or is that drawn up individually?

Board Member Heimlich: Not that I am aware of. We have a few that are variable, I don’t know how many but not very many.

Surveyor Ward: It is more on ditches.

Board Member Heimlich: That is true. Most of those that are variable rates are on ditches.

Board Member Diener: The downside is the people that have the most to gain with the cost of this project when you talk about seven hundred dollars ($700.00), the initial one (1), and spread across everybody. If you do it with those just north of State Road 18, you are probably going to have costs that are prohibitive to even consider. If you do something south of State Road 18 and get it lowered under State Road 18 you actually are improving the drainage for the entire water shed district. It may not be the greatest benefit for folks on the south but there might be a little bit better taste in their mouth to realize if we are going to pay this at least we are getting some good out of it. Where the other way around you are going to paying for it and all the benefit is to the north. If I were the land owner that would be my view.

Chairman Burton: Let use State Road 18 as a dividing line, the percent of the project south of State Road 18 and the percent north of it? It is not fifty-fifty (50-50) is it?

Surveyor Ward: Seems more like sixty-forty (60-40) to the north side.

Dale Lehe: I just remember the comment that Mrs. Watkins made ……In-audible……….

Tony Cain: They used to farm all that out there. There is tile everywhere that goes through that, four (4) inch, five (5) inch, and six (6) inch.

Dale Lehe: I guess the point being …In-audible…… I understand that it gets pretty shallow on O’Farrell (Gunther Property).

Surveyor Ward: There probably is not a foot of cover though O’Farrell (Gunther Property) now which is probably part of the problem just not enough cover.

Dick Bol: The disadvantages of doing the north first?

Surveyor Ward: My thought on the disadvantage would be if we did the north first. Then you realize you need grade later you have got four thousand (4,000) feet of tile on the ground that is too high. That could have been deeper. I think there is a lot of grade to be had between the outlet and the highway.

Tony Cain: If you charge the outlet you would have all kinds of drainage.

Chairman Burton: You can always call in if you have more questions. This was not a meeting to make a decision today it was to try to get out some more options. We don’t have a definite date. We could take some suggestions on how soon we should have this meeting. But I think we have taken a good road to have these open public meetings about this. Not to be pressured to decide one way or the other.

Board Member Heimlich: Do we want another one of these public meetings? When we advertise for the Hearing we will have to advertise for a specific cost. So we will have to at least advertise which one of these projects that we are going to hold the Hearing on.

Attorney Loy: How many more land owners are there, that are not represented here?

Surveyor Ward: Two (2) or three (3) major land owners.

Dale Lehe: Is this still the five (5) year pay thing?

Surveyor Ward: Well, probably because it would be a Construction/Reconstruction. If you pay over five (5) years there will be a ten percent (10%) penalty every year.

Chairman Burton: I am not saying that we should but if we took the lowest option with one hundred and fifty dollars ($150.00) an acre does that mean there is enough money in the General Drainage Improvement Fund to cover the costs or would we still have to borrow?

Drainage Assistant Sterrett: Most likely there would be enough money in the fund.

Dale Lehe: Going north of the highway what would that cost, one hundred and twenty-five dollars ($125.00) or one hundred and fifty dollars ($150.00)?

Todd Frauhiger: It is in that range one hundred and twenty-five ($125.00) to one hundred and fifty dollars ($150.00) an acre. You have to understand we don’t have any direction yet. We haven’t put any design into it. Tony was just standing here and talking that if we went the entire route his gut feeling is that at County Road 300 and State Road 18 that there might be areas we might get to deep. We might have to embed a small section of the pipe to protect the pipe simply because of the depth that we would be going in at. We have not done total grades on it yet and we have not done any design on it yet so, that is a good range.

Dale Lehe: You said two hundred and seventy-five dollars ($275.00) for a whole new?

Todd Frauhiger: Yeah, for the whole new. That basically would be a new parallel tile leaving the existing in there too. The new tile would be lower, we know that.

Unknown: Could you do it this the fall?

Chairman Burton: Time wise I don’t think that would not be realistic. What I don’t want to do is put pressure on this. Basically we are at the end of July now. If we turn around and try to have another meeting to decide on which option we would go and we advertise we are talking thirty days at the minimum. If she has trouble trying to get the time to get them out. We are already into September.

Todd Frauhiger: We are going to need some time to actually do the design.

Chairman Burton: We need time to do the design and engineering behind it. I wouldn’t want to give out hope that we could bid that and be in construction in October or November. Anything is possible but I wouldn’t count on that. If you come up with something later after this meeting you can always call and ask. Please talk to the other people who are involved in this whether you feel they are going to agree or disagree with this. The more you talk about this ahead of time it makes the public meeting and the actual Hearing better.

Todd Frauhiger: I just wanted to mention also that the O’Farrells could not be here today. They did contact us last week when Brad was out and asked if we could at least meet. I met with them last week we discussed exactly what we discussed today.


(1.) Mr. & Mrs. Don Deno & Mr. Robert Holland presented to the Board an issue at Kemp’s Camp, located on Bailey Road. They have a big problem with water coming off the farmer’s field and washing out the roads and coming over on their properties. Tile was put in but it is plugged most of the time. The water comes right over the top of the road into Kemp’s Camp. Mr. Holland black topped the road in front of his home. Now the water washes out the stone under it. He had to block the road so he could put stone back under the black top to make the road safe to drive on. Mr. & Mrs. Deno and Mr. Holland are asking for someone to come out and look at this issue.

B.J. Propes: What it is there is a tile that comes out of the farmer’s field. There is a catch basin there and as a matter of fact I just put a trash-basket on it to try to keep the corn stocks out of it. It is only a five (5) or six (6) inch tile. I am assuming it is the farmer’s tile. It just comes to our road ditch and stops at the air well then goes back to the north. The water comes down through there fast enough and ponds there fast enough that it goes over the road. Yes, it does go down Poke’s Loop. I have been out there several times to unplug it. The last time was when I put a trash basket on it. B. J. doesn’t think it is a County tile.

Mr. Holland kept referring to a tank that was put in and that is what is plugged up. The Board asked B. J. to go out to investigate this tank to see what is happening.

With nothing further for the White County Drainage Board Chairman Burton adjourned the July 15, 2013 meeting.