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October 7, 2002 Tape #019

The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:30 A. M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana with Board Members Ronald A. Schmierer, O. D. “Bud” Ferguson and John C. Heimlich, Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Dennis W. Sterrett, Engineer L. Todd Frauhiger and Secretary Romana Kiser in attendance.


Others attending were David Huffman with CCL, Justin Brown with Leo Brown Construction Company, Kimball Tetzloff with Twin Lakes Schools, Chad Reynolds and Robert Thomas with Town of Wolcott, Jeff Dague and Charlie Mellon.


Chairman Schmierer opened the meeting with the opening of sealed bids on the Letting of the Carter-Hines Drain Reconstruction Project in Cass Township, White County, Indiana.


Attorney Loy proceeded stating the deadline for receiving bids was 10:30 A. M. today and we have three bids. Attorney Loy asked if there was anyone else present that had a bid to present. No one responded. Attorney Loy opened and read the following total bids and stated that the board would be taking them under advisement for review: (1) Gutwein Bulldozing and Excavating for $94,500.00 (2) County Line Tiling and Excavating for $89,950.00 and (3) Blackman Excavation for $115,000.00. Board Member Ferguson asked what the estimate was. Surveyor Sterrett stated it was almost $142,000 so all bids are under the estimated cost.


Engineer Frauhiger stated he is ready to recommend approval for the drainage plans for the Twin Lakes Schools project. The plans are for a new concession stand, dugouts and a new press box for the baseball field, new concession stand over around the football field, associated sidewalks and graveled areas to get to the new facilities. He stated he and Surveyor Sterrett spent quite a bit of time out on the site and met with the City of Monticello Street Department personnel. He said, “Then this morning an issue came up. This is South Street (showing map) and this is the new proposed drive in to the facilities. We have a gentleman, Jeff Dague, who owns property right here at this corner. Jeff told us that during rain storms the side ditch along South Street floods, correct me if I’m wrong, and you get water almost up to your house.” Jeff Dague said, “Within six inches of coming inside the house, the whole yard is flooded, the whole street is flooded.”


Board Member Ferguson asked if he was on South Street. Jeff Dague said Lakeland. Engineer Frauhiger said, “The City (personnel) met in the Surveyor’s office to discuss the situation and basically what they thought is that most of that is surcharge from a combined sewer system in the area. There is an eight inch combined sewer with inlets dropping directly into it. The actual side ditch along South Street, the high point is right about here, there’s only about a hundred and sixty feet, west of where the driveway is going in, that would take water that way. There is no curb on the proposed road, there’s not storm sewer on that proposed road, so basically the road is going to be crowned and the water that falls on the road is just going to run off of both sides. There’s no way then for it to get down to South Street. So, for those reasons I think we are still going to go ahead and recommend approval for the school’s plans. But, as we were also discussing, and maybe you can help me with this, there’s an eighteen pipe that, we are not sure if it is being utilized, going south to Buss Ditch. (Kimball Tetzloff stated that is not being utilized right now.) Do you think it still works?” Kimball responded, “I think, on that one, Doug (Roberts) and I discussed that one before and they thought that was terminated somewhere at one point. It might still work, I don’t know. Might have to run a dye test on it.”


Engineer Frauhiger said, “Really this isn’t a Drainage Board issue, but just so you know what we are thinking about doing, what the City might think about doing, is going ahead and putting the structure down in that eighteen inch assuming it still goes south to the Buss Ditch and is still working.


And then, on the sanitary sewer that is in the area we’ll put bolt down water tight castings so the combined sewer can’t back up, and then run that system to the Buss Ditch. But we’ll try to get an eighteen inch pipe from this area over to the Buss Ditch which will alleviate problems in this area quite a bit. That’s the City’s problem and they understand that.”


Engineer Frauhiger told Jeff Dague that they would do the best they could to try to get some type of relief there for him. He said he did not think this plan would make his situation worse, but we will see what we can do to make sure that we try to correct it. He said he was unaware that it was bad.


Jeff Dague stated, “My concern is, as I already stated, there’s many houses that are already basically flooded in there in a heavy rain for whatever reason. My contention is at the very least the asphalt diminishes the amount of absorption that you get, so although you may not have a lot of runoff down that way, it can’t help. If anything you’re going to make it a little bit worse and I think alleviating some of that problem ought to be a precondition for the asphalt in my opinion.”


Engineer Frauhiger said, “Again, I don’t think the runoff from that asphalt is going to get down to that ditch. I agree that situation needs to be alleviated. I’m not sure if there’s anything that the school can or should be responsible for doing to fix the problem that the City acknowledges and understands. As a matter of fact, if that is a truly combined sewer backup, without a little bit of thought going into it, I’m not sure if I just want to dump it into a storm sewer and take it to Buss Ditch. Is that correct, George (Loy)? We don’t want a sanitary sewer flowing in to the Buss Ditch.”


Attorney Loy stated, “If that is the same portion of town that he is thinking of, we (City) do have plans down the road for storm water separation project as soon as we are able to fund it, to separate the storm water from the sanitary sewer to alleviate that problem. The City is aware of what you are talking about, but as far as this project is concerned I’ll leave that up to the engineers whether that is contributing any more of not.”


Jeff Dague replied, “The drain you are talking about it probably five or ten years down the road and Joe (Mowrer of City Water Works) and Doug (Roberts, Supt. Of Monticello Street Dept.) have told me that much.” Attorney Loy said yes, you’re right. Mr. Dague said, “So just be flooded for five to ten years and we’ll get it fixed. That does not sound like a very good solution to me, sorry.” Attorney Loy said, “I agree with you, this project is apples. Your flooding right now is oranges. The City is trying to take care of that. Again, I’ll let Todd address how much this project will help or hinder that situation. I don’t know.”


Engineer Frauhiger stated, “As a matter of fact, I am so sure that this project will not worsen the situation that I would be fully confident in telling the school that they could come down here to the side ditch and build smaller levies, the water isn’t going to get there anyway. But, one thing, while you guys *Brown Construction Co.) have your excavation equipment out there, could you possibly expose (eighteen inch tile)…do you have any idea where that eighteen inch tile is?” Justin Brown answered, “If someone wants to show me, I will definitely.” Kimball Tetzloff said he thinks he has an old print back in the 60’s with it on there.


Engineer Frauhiger said, “Maybe if they would expose it, I could get with the City and see what we could do about getting an airwell pipe down in that side ditch down to the eighteen and then put some bolts down in this area on the sanitary and that will help you out tremendously, Jeff.” Jeff said definitely. Todd said, “As long as you guys are going to be cooperative, I’ll see if we can work something out for Jeff. I really don’t think this pavement is going to adversely impact Jeff very much, but if you guys are willing to help us out, we’ll see if we can help him out.”


Kimball Tetzloff asked Surveyor Sterrett if the tile showed on any of his books. The answer was no.


Charlie Mellon asked which side ditch the eighteen inch tile is supposed to be in, the south side of South Street or the north side. Engineer Frauhiger said it flows to the south to the Buss Ditch so it crosses South Street somewhere. Surveyor Sterrett said it is a north/south tile. Charlie Mellon said, “I travel that road all the time and there is a lot of water in that block where he’s talking, where this man lives, and it looks to me like to take care of that, it’s mainly surface water I think, if you go underneath South Street with the sewer and that ditch on the south side of South Street is real deep and it flows east and that goes clear down in there and goes in behind the elevator and I’ll bet you there’s a ten foot drop from where he lives on down there. It looks to me like the school, if they’re going to run their water off their blacktop over on those houses, the school should be putting a tile in there to take care of that.”


Engineer Frauhiger stated that are not going to run water onto those houses. He said half of that twenty foot wide road (the water run-off) is going to go back onto their property and the other half is going to go toward the edge, but it is not going to be that much water. Charlie said, “Not that much water but it looks like right now that, how close is that road being built to their property?” Todd said it is over thirty feet from the edge of the pavement to the property line. Charlie said that was quite a ways, more than he thought. Kimball Tetzloff stated that he thinks a lot of the water will actually be taken away by the storm sewer system. Engineer Frauhiger said it is pretty flat and there is no defined way for that water, once it gets off the road, to even get down to South Street.


Chairman Schmierer stated it is the Engineer’s recommendation to approve the drainage plans for the Main Campus Outdoor Facility and Site Improvement for Twin Lakes School Corporation. Board Member Heimlich moved to approve the drainage plan. Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Surveyor Sterrett recommended a waiver from meeting the requirements of the White County Drainage Ordinance for Robert Mathew for Little Pine #2 Subdivision, a one lot subdivision. He stated they were just trying to separate the house from the rest of the farm. There are existing buildings on it. It is located in Prairie Township, Section 27-25-4 East of Brookston. They had to make a one lot subdivision because they couldn’t make the three acre requirement. That was to come into compliance with Area Plan.


Board Member Ferguson made a motion to grant a waiver from the White County Drainage Ordinance to Robert Mathew for Little Pine #2 Subdivision. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Engineer Frauhiger stated that he recommends a waiver from meeting the White County Drainage Ordinance requirements for North Wolcott Prairie Subdivision, owner John D. Coleman. He said that he and Surveyor Sterrett visited the site of the proposed subdivision and there were a couple of notes he wanted to make for the record. Engineer Frauhiger stated, “The property is here (map) and they are proposing to split out two lots over here. Lot One will be the existing house and an out building. It stated in the Surveyor’s report that, you can see draw that basically would take water from Lot Two and run it right through the middle of Lot Three where they built the house. It stated in the Surveyor’s report that they would build a ditch, a grass wale between Lot One and Lot Two to bring everything down here to the County Road 200 North. A good portion of the water flow should sheet flow down to CR 200 North. It is mentioned in the Surveyor’s report that water will flow in a side ditch down to an existing tile. There’s no side ditch along CR 200 North.”


Chairman Schmierer asked the representatives from the Town of Wolcott if they were familiar with this. They asked if it was on CR 200 North. Engineer Frauhiger said it is at CR 200 North and CR 900 W. Chairman Schmierer asked if it was going to affect the City of Wolcott. Surveyor Sterrett said it is right straight north of Wolcott two miles. Robert Thomas said that shouldn’t affect the town any.


Board Member Heimlich made a motion to approve a waiver for North Wolcott Prairie Subdivision. Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Engineer Frauhiger presented drainage plans for David and Sara Davis’ Hog Operation Project. There has been an appeal filed by neighbors against the project, but he stated that drainage-wise, they hired C & S Engineering to do their drainage plan and Paul Couts did a good job on it. Engineer Frauhiger explained, “They are going to put in a detention pond and they are going to put an earth bank all the way around the ends of the property, around the ends of the buildings. Flow is to the east overland onto his father’s property. The one concern Surveyor Sterrett and I had was that by putting the detention area here with a pipe through the embankment, you might get some erosion at the downstream end of that pipe. You might cut yourself a little path of water, at least for a while before it spreads out into sheet flow, but it is his father’s property and he didn’t seem too concerned about it. Drainage wise, we do recommend approval but we do understand that it is under appeal for non-drainage reasons.”


Board Member Ferguson made a motion to approve the drainage plans for David and Sara Davis Hog Operation as presented by the drainage engineer. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Board Member Ferguson mentioned that the last time Engineer Frauhiger said it ran across somebody else’s property. Engineer Frauhiger said, “Eventually it will cross another property, that’s why we didn’t want him to get in without some kind of a detention pond.” Surveyor Sterrett said they really didn’t have a drainage plan before. Engineer Frauhiger said, “Right, it was just some sketches.” Board Member Heimlich said he thought it ran south but he thinks it is going to run north. Engineer Frauhiger said, “Actually it runs east and eventually turns south.”


Surveyor Sterrett presented a Petition for the Reconstruction of the A. K. Ruth Drain in Monon Township near Thomasville on State Road 16. He stated that Branch 1 was dredged a few years ago and he thinks there is about $1,000.00 in the maintenance fund. Chairman Schmierer asked how far they are wanting to go. Surveyor Sterrett answered a little over a mile. There are 24 property owners, including several lots in Thomasville.


Board Member Heimlich made a motion to accept the Petition for Reconstruction on the A. K. Ruth Open Drain. Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Robert Thomas and Chad Reynolds representing the Town of Wolcott addressed several drainage issues with the Board. Chad Reynolds said they are wondered if the Board has come up with anything they are going to do on the north end of town. Also, the State Highway has made them aware that they are going to resurface the highway through town and that tile that goes under the highway is collapsed. Chairman Schmierer said we knew that and asked Engineer Frauhiger if we had researched that any further. Engineer Frauhiger stated that we have contacted INDOT and told them that the tile needs to be fixed, but we should get back on that. Robert Thomas said they are starting to survey the highway now and it is going to be next year when they resurface that highway. He said they are not having any problems with that tile, but they would like to have the tile fixed before the highway is done rather than tear up the new road after it is done to fix the tile. Chairman Schmierer explained that the Board had just been waiting a while after the Reconstruction project on the Unroe Drain.


Chairman Schmierer asked what their question was on the Dwyer Instrument site. Robert Thomas replied that they just question if Dwyer Instrument has decided anything about what they are going to do (about a proposed project that would require retention of a lot of water). Surveyor Sterrett and Engineer Frauhiger had met with Dwyer Instruments and they had not heard any more about the project.


Robert Thomas stated that the Town of Wolcott has been maintaining the open ditch that runs through town (Unroe Drain). He said they hire someone during the summer that weed eats and cleans the trash out of it. They noticed that it is needing dredged, because where it goes under the road and then it turns back in to the ditch, it raises up and water stands under the road there. Near the waste water plant the threes are starting to take over in that ditch, too. So, they would like to get on the list of projects to be done in the future. That would be the open ditch portion of the Unroe Drain.


Chairman Schmierer asked if that would have to be reconstructed. Engineer Frauhiger said they will have to look at it. Surveyor Sterrett asked if they were talking east of 24. Robert Thomas answered yes.


Engineer Frauhiger stated that there is a portion of tile under Highway 24 that has to be fixed and there is also some other portion of tile which are under some City streets that have to be fixed also because they are collapsing badly. Chairman Schmierer said he thinks there is enough money in maintenance to fix the County portion if the state will fix the portion under Highway 24.


Chairman Schmierer said he thinks the Unroe Drain takes in enough money that we probably have enough money to fix those tiles now. Engineer Frauhiger said we should probably go ahead and do it all. He said in the past what we have done when the tile is under the streets, is where we took the tile out and fixed it and put it back in, we brought it back up to grade and packed it and the town puts the road back together. Robert Thomas said in the Town Board meeting they have said they would work with the Drainage Board on fixing the streets back. Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Down by that elevator that pipe is so bad I don’t know what is holding it together.” Robert Thomas said there is a water line that goes right along there so we’ll have to keep an eye out for that, too.


Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Just so we are clear, it will have to be done, we can use the money out of the fund, but it is going to have to be done as a reconstruction. That’s how INDOT will participate in a reconstruction project within their right-of-way. It will be a reconstruction project to fix 200 feet of tile. We have to give them invert elevations on each side of Highway 24. So it will be a very basic plan. Then the question is, are they going to want us to do the work or are they going to want to do it?”


Surveyor Sterrett reported that it looks like Hubbard’s are putting in a parking lot and it is over 10,000 square feet (just west of the Sixth Street and Highway 24 intersection where they tore down a house) and he hasn’t been in to our office to see us about it. Chairman Schmierer said that Dave Anderson, White County Building Inspector, went out and saw him about it and he said he would call in but he hasn’t done it. Board Member Ferguson said someone called him about it the other day; too, it is higher than the John Deere place next to it. He will run all the water over on to John Deere. Surveyor Sterrett said he talked to a John Deere person this morning and he said when the house was there the water used to run through them there through the middle of their driveway. Board Member Ferguson said we’ve seen that whole place covered that (with water) for a day at a time. Surveyor Sterrett asked if they put a tile in there when they put the new intersection and highway through there. Chairman Schmierer said not to his knowledge. Surveyor Sterrett said they have curb inlets there.


Attorney Loy stated, “We need to get in touch with him right away and we are going to do it by letter.” Engineer Frauhiger said he started the letter over the weekend, telling him they need a drainage permit and to cease work until the proper drainage approval is received. Chairman Schmierer said we had better get it to him before he gets it done. Attorney Loy stated the letter should be sent certified. Board Member Ferguson said they have stone on the lot now. Chairman Schmierer said he will have blacktop on it by the end of the week. Surveyor Sterrett said it goes back behind his other parking lot. Engineer Frauhiger said he obviously wants to show cars on it, at that particular point we can keep the cars off of it. Attorney Loy said to get a letter out today and send it certified and give Dave Anderson a copy.


Engineer Frauhiger stated, “It has come to out attention from the City and some property owners that Dave Jordan has not finished the drainage facilities on West Side Commercial Subdivision. One detention pond hasn’t been constructed, grading has not been finished on a detention pond, and there is some storm sewer that hasn’t been put in yet. That is the development behind Kroger’s. So, we need to notify by letter than the drainage is not finished and they have to get it finished. I think the only way we are going to get action out there we are going to have to, which the Drainage Ordinance gives the Board the right to stop work. He doesn’t have any of the commercial lots sold, he’s still building out there, and I think we are just going to have to stop him until the rest of it is done.”


Chairman Schmierer said we can stop him from building but if he isn’t building something right now, what we can do is request that he finish it. We just won’t give him building permits until he does finish it, that’s all we can do. When we stop them from building that’s when they get it done. Charlie Mellon says they are hauling dirt out of there. Attorney Loy stated, “I think we have some fines that can assess on a daily basis.” Engineer Frauhiger asked Attorney Loy to put a letter together for them. Attorney Loy answered yes.


Surveyor Sterrett reported that he is going to do a maintenance project on about a mile of the Hollingsworth Drain over by Tri-County School. Plans are to clean it out. He has the landowner letters sent out and will probably be opening quotes at the next Drainage Board meeting.


Chairman Schmierer stated, “It looks like we are going to change the rates on the M. F. Smith Br. #1 Drain. That is never going to get out of debt if we don’t do something with that. You know how that got in debt so far, I do, it got in debt when we did that reconstruction up there and we just kept spending more and more money on it.” Secretary Kiser stated that the debt all came AFTER reconstruction. Chairman Schmierer said, “Right, we spent all that money repairing what we did. Surveyor Sterrett asked why. Chairman Schmierer stated it never got done properly. There were rock chutes and everything else that we had to put in to keep it from washing into the Hoagland.


Charlie Mellon asked if they had figured out how much the assessment on the Carter-Hines project would be lowered from the original estimate since the bids were lower. Chairman Schmierer said the bid is about two-thirds of the cost estimate, so it is going to come down approximately one-third.


Board Member Heimlich asked if we bid the Carter-Hines Reconstruction project so it could be split of do we have to aware it to one contractor. Attorney Loy said each branch was to be quoted separately and the project as a whole. Engineer Frauhiger said he wasn’t sure why we took them separately. Surveyor Sterrett explained that the branches have to be assessed separately. Surveyor Sterrett said he asked that at the last Drainage Board meeting and they said there could be three contractors. Board Member Heimlich said that is why he wondered why we couldn’t split it, have a different contractor do a branch if their bid was lower. Engineer Frauhiger stated that the low bidder (total sum) is the lowest on the Main and Branch #1. The second low bidder is lowest on Moss & Delaney Branch. The third bidder is higher on all of them. I guess the question is, would the second bidder want to mobilize for $6,500.00 and clean 4,200 feet.


Chairman Schmierer asked, “What is the problem with the Board deciding that they want to aware it all to one bidder?” Attorney Loy said nothing, he did not have a problem with that at all.


Board Member Ferguson made a motion to accept County Line Tiling and Excavating’s low bid of $89,950.00 to do the total Carter-Hines Reconstruction Project. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Board Member Heimlich made a motion to approve the minutes of the September 16, 2002 meeting. Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Board Member Heimlich stated that Secretary Kiser brought to this attention that we have a shortfall on Contractual Engineering and we really don’t have any place to get that much money. It was decided that we should charge some of the engineering to a drain it if pertained directly to that drain. If it was a meeting on a certain ditch it can be charged to that ditch. Engineer Frauhiger and Secretary Kiser will go over past claims and bill what we can directly to ditches. Chairman Schmierer said it was his understanding that we had the contractual engineering if we had nothing else to charge it to, if it didn’t pertain to a particular drain. Drainage Board meetings can be charge to the drains that are reviewed.


Chairman Schmierer adjourned the meeting.