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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, September 11, 2000, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.


Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, Ray Butz, Charles Anderson, Ron Pollock, Stephen Fisher, Don Ward and Rick Raderstorf. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.


Visitors Attending were: Patrick W. Haskins, Shelly Ann Haskins, Jeff Lawley, Rick Summey, Ollie Hickman, Ruth Sloan, Donna Haskins, John R. Cooley, Willcina Tiede, Fred Dick, Esther Dick, Amelia Z. Barcia, Cecillo Huerta, Sam Haskins, Bob Ivy, Walter M. Horn, Patricia Barnhart, Donald Barnhart, Fred Mosher, Paul Mosher, Robin Hayes, Rebecca Vehslage, Marcus Rust, Paul Mosher, Diana Orr, Ronald Orr, Joe Pala, Walt Hough, Evelyn Wiegand and Gerald R. Wiegand.


The meeting was called to order by Vice President Steve Fisher and roll call was taken. Jay Clawson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of June 12, 2000. Motion was seconded by Ron Pollock and carried unanimously.




#722 Rose Acre Farms, Inc.; Requesting to rezone from A-1 to I-2 on 50.00 Acres. The property is located in Monon Township, take State Road 16 West of Monon, go North on C.R. 300 W., West on C.R. 850 N, North on C.R. 400 W. and the property is located on the West side of the road, right before the railroad tracks.


Vice President Fisher asked, do we have anyone representing this request?


Marcus Rust was representing this request.


Vice President Fisher asked, do you want to give us some background on this?


Marcus Rust stated, what we are looking at doing, long term we are wanting to cut up a plant, do you want this up here?


Vice President Fisher stated, anything that you give us, we have to keep on record.


Marcus Rust stated, this is a product, Exhibit A, that will be made….


Attorney Altman stated, excuse me for just a second, anything that he presents the public is able to see it so we will give you a chance to look at anything that is submitted.


Marcus Rust stated, we have had a pile running about 8 years, we have been making a line of golf course fertilizer. Now, we are only selling about 5,000 to 6,000 ton a year, of this product. We don’t have near enough capacity when we need the hydraulic and what we’re looking at is building a plant that will serve both agricultural and the golf course market and this here is an agricultural product.


Attorney Altman asked, this is a fertilizer?


Marcus Rust stated, yes. That product there is 25 percent ammonium phosphate and 75 percent manure, it’s like an 8, 3 and 3.


Attorney Altman stated, this is Exhibit B and the other one is Exhibit A.


Marcus Rust stated, this here is grain spreading for the greens at the golf course, it’s a 5, 4 and 5. It’s documented in our brochure. This product here is a 16, 1 and 2, it’s a 75 percent ammonium phosphate product.


Attorney Altman stated, the third one is Exhibit C, again, for the record.


Marcus Rust stated, this here is our fairway grade, which is 5, 4 and 5.


Attorney Altman stated, this is Exhibit D.


Marcus Rust stated, there is another product mentioned like in the brochure there but their products will be dumped due that much volume on it we will probably continue to run it over.


Attorney Altman stated, for everyone’s information the Director Weaver and President just arrived.


Marcus Rust stated, the potential capacity of this plat could be up to 50,000 ton of product a year. It’s one of those for us to efficiently operate a plant you have to produce a high volume and the agricultural market long term, everyone know $1.50 corn you know, people are kind of limited what they put out on the corn fields. The golf course market is the one that we found to be the most attractive margins and we think that there is, how many golf courses are there right now, 20, I think that there is 2,000 in the City of Chicago along. As crazy as it may sound, we don’t produce enough manure to supply all of the golf courses in the City of Chicago. We have been primarily going to the agricultural market and I’m sure that any of you in this room have seen when we spread manure out of the fields, we get feathers and then we get rain and then you get odor, flies and bugs. It’s a problem that we are trying to address and make go away through processed products. The site that we’re looking at there, its not what we call an ideal site, from our standpoint the roads in and out are terrible. For us to utilize the site we would have to re-look at the whole road issue there but, it’s long term. We feel that we need to be close to a rail because you never know what transportation is going to do long term. It looks like we’re going, like Europe, there is a lot of stuff going back to railroad today and we want to be close to that incase that ever happens and that’s the only site. In Northern Indiana, that borders the railroad and that’s the main reason that we’re looking there and when we’re looking at the production we look during the high time of the season. We could be looking at a truck every 8 to 10 minutes on the road there and if any of you have been there the roads in no way shape or form will handle that kind of traffic in their present state or condition. We want everyone to understand that we won’t go with that site unless something can be done with the road issue because it’s not good for us and it’s not good for the neighbors.


Ron Pollock asked, are you going to use the railroad at all?


Marcus Rust stated, presently, no but we have talked to a guy by the name of Terry Therman of CSX and the railroad, it’s just an alternative that we feel that we have to have the option down the road. In Southern Indiana, we built a soybean crushing plant, we didn’t build it on a rail because we figured that we were going to take everything in by truck and trailer and ship it all out that way. Kind of Monday morning quarterbacking, we would have been better off if we would have stuck it next to a rail some place where if, down the road if the option came in, it would be something that we would look at.


Don Ward asked, do you own property all of the way to the railroad?


Marcus Rust stated, yes.


Don Ward asked, is that to be rezoned all of way to the railroad?


Marcus Rust asked, correct, I think that we applied to rezone the whole 50 acres, is that right?


Don Ward stated, it doesn’t show that on the map though. There is a road that goes back and there looks like there is a house back there.


Marcus Rust stated, there is a lane that goes back along the railroad track.


Don Ward asked, is that your property?


Marcus Rust stated, we own to the fence, to the railroad.


President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here with any questions about this request?


Fred Mosher asked, I believe in the newspaper, it said that there was going to be 30 out of the 50, I believe in the newspaper article it said that you were going to do 30 out of the 50.


Marcus Rust asked, what did we apply for?


Jay Clawson stated, just 38 acres.


Marcus Rust stated, 30 or 50, I’m not sure.


Attorney Altman stated, 30 acres off of the North side and Southwest quarter, and the South half of the Southeast quarter all in the township containing 50 acres more or less. So there are two descriptions, one is 30 acres, one is a South half of the Northwest quarter of the Northwest quarter which would be another 20 acres, so it totals 50, is what the total description is.


President Anderson asked, is that the only question that you had about it?


Fred Mosher stated, well, later on, I have more.


President Anderson asked, does anyone else have any questions?


Kenny George asked, I live on 850 North, actually, right across from the eggplant. Is this a time for comments as well, or just questions?


President Anderson stated, anything that you want.


Kenny George stated, first, I applaud you for wanting to do something with the manure because, I don’t know how many years ago the original site was put there…


Marcus Rust stated, it was 16 years now, I think.


Kenny George stated, I was a little naive then, and I didn’t realize that there would be odor. I assumed that there would be some odor because, I raised hogs before and I’m a customer of yours. I sell you corn and I have used the fertilizer a couple of times but, I want some issues really clarified before I would want this thing to proceed. One of them, you alluded to earlier, this 8 to 10 minutes trucks, is a main concern and I’m not putting these in any particular order, that’s a real concern.


Marcus Rust stated, it’s something that it really concerned us because, anyone knows that those roads are not going to handle that kind of traffic.


Kenny George stated, today if you were to go down Lee Road, between 850 and State Road 16, as you well know, if you meet a grain truck of any type and you are in any kind of a vehicle other than a bicycle someone is going to be in the grass. So there would have to be some county money to obviously, to put towards widening that road and really beefing that up. Then when you get to 900, which is the next road past me going North, that’s all gravel over to the road that you corner on. There is no way, and I don’t know when your busy time is but there is no way in the spring and the fall that that road would tolerate any kind of heavy traffic.


Marcus Rust stated, the peak time that we would be most likely targeting would be September, October, mid November, whenever farmers can get in the fields. We would be doing it spring and fall and in the middle of the summer and the dead of the winter, it wouldn’t be any volume at all.


Kenny George stated, because any volume in there when those roads are starting to fall, particularly on that gravel road because, there are times that it is very difficult to get down it with normal traffic. Those of you who are aware of that area out there, it’s not a well traveled area, there’s not much out there, and that’s one good thing. I’m also speaking for my father that couldn’t be here tonight because, why I own 120 directly across from the plant now, he owns 140 dew North about a quarter of a mile North of the site. 


Marcus Rust asked, on the other side of the woods?


Kenny George stated, right, and again I will go back to my original statement when you first decided that you were going to come here. There were probably this many people or more and I didn’t think that it would happen or that there wouldn’t be very much over it. I will be the first to confess that there isn’t a lot of odor, in fact there is no odor at my place unless the wind is out of the South. If it’s out of the South, don’t be having a cookout it’s just that way and there is no questioning it. I know, I assume from what limited amount of knowledge that I have tonight, that there is going to be a manure truck there and then process into one of these forms then reloaded. The second concern that I have is, will all of this traffic, and we have all seen what a trash hauler with covered vehicles so nothing gets out. People travel down anywhere between Monon, anyway from my house there is just trash all of the way down State Road 16. So the covered thing is not going to stop the feathers unless you have something airtight. In the spring it’s not so bad because, the birds use it to build nests but, if they are not using it and the birds are not building any nests and no one is picking them up that’s another concern. I would certainly want to see if this thing was to proceed, some sort of guarantee or something that these vehicles would be covered and that truck going up and down the road, you’re not going to get a whiff of it, or a face full of feathers.


Marcus Rust stated, we try to maintain, to where all of our contract carriers or hailers don’t have a tarp or netting to protect the feathers. There are times that I think that they do real good and then there are times that they will run around with the door open until someone screams at them.


Kenny George stated, unless it’s your trucks, with your man, you’re at the mercy of whoever, then you’re just in a revolving door trying to get who you can get to haul it. To the kids, if there is that many trucks running down there, we have a new modular, that you’re aware of, the other modular on the other corner. I think that they are going to be putting up another house that got rezoned, so I think that they are going to be putting up another. There are several children close by there and I think that it would be rather difficult to keep them off of the road but I suppose that you could. The last thing, from a property value standpoint, while I can’t prove it or document it, I have not tried to sell my place. I’m a real-estate appraiser by trade that’s how I subsidize my farming habit today. I use to put hog buildings up put them up all over the place you don’t have to listen to the news, I’m not telling you anything that you don’t already know.


Marcus Rust stated, my wife is a real-estate agent.


Kenny George stated, if you have two properties, if you have my house sitting where it is and you have it sitting two miles down the road at dads, it’s going to be worth more there to the majority of folks. They are not going to have that odor even though it’s a small percent of the time. Not to mention the flies and I applaud you again because, if you’re not going to be putting it on a field, while I like to put it on ever two or three years because, it’s tremendous fertilizer. The downfall is, I have to listen to the lady over there in the green, putting a flyswatter in my hand or a spray cans, that’s old news. So my major concerns are, number one, that we are going to put some money into some roads, been living on that road for 30 years and it’s still gravel. I would like to see some attention there for some long-term folks and I know that you don’t do that but, when it gets to the Commissioners, I would appreciate that they would listen to that. The second thing is, there are going to be a lot of tax dollars, a significant amount tax dollars to improve this roadway and to maintain it. I’m sure that there is going to be some tax benefits by what taxes would be paid and lastly is the odor that sort of thing. That’s pretty much it.


Marcus Rust stated, we want to be as good of neighbors as what we can be because, I don’t know how many people we’re being attacked on all edges today. We have the P.I.T.A. folks, we had animal liberation, they come in to one of our farms in Southern Indiana and spray painted that all of us should be in jail. They took high-powered riffles and shot out the sub station transformers and they burnt the feed truck. We have McDonalds coming in and they have announced that you have to have so many square inches for chicken. There’s just all kinds of in agricultural industry, you have severe economic pressure and then you have everyone else telling you how to run your business. The thing that we know, we have to be as good of a neighbor as what we can afford to be. We don’t want to be, I’m sure people have read, we have a competitor in Ohio that’s doesn’t go to any effort to try to work in the neighborhood and that’s one thing that we always hoped that we try to do a good job of. We want to keep on a friendly relationship and if we have a problem we want to try to fix it.


Kenny George stated, as this thing progresses and it’s going to take a while to bring everything together, if it gets brought together. For me to not to be up to this microphone on several occasions, if you can give me some assurances and I mean some good assurances that the traffic thing is going to be handled in some way, shape or form, there’s not another good way to get in there.


Marcus Rust stated, it’s a miserable place to get in and out and the direction that we would prefer to come is going to be on what we call Lee Road. Everyone in here always knows someone that got killed on a train track and we don’t want our people or the trucks and stuff to have to go across an unguarded railroad crossing.


Don Ward asked, I don’t think that 400 West goes through from 900 North down to 850 does it?


An audience member stated, it doesn’t.


Marcus Rust stated, no, we have to come in on Lee and then go over.


Don Ward asked, if that were built that would elevate a lot of your problems.


Marcus Rust stated, that would be fantastic if it was there.


Don Ward stated, it should be built.


President Anderson asked, we have another question back here?


John Cooley stated, I live on 850, I just built a new home on 40 acres of ground that was my grandfathers. Even though, I’m not actively farming because of small farms anymore, I wanted to keep that piece of heritage in my family, like I said it was my grandfathers. We have talked to the County several times about Lee Road, they come out once a year, spray a gallon of oil down and throw a couple shovels full of chips down and that’s the road improvements that we have. Eight-fifty in the spring of the year is mud, it’s not going to handle any trucks because, we’re talking a grain truck will tear it up. The neighborhood, we have new modulars going in, like I said mine is a new stick built house, I have put my life savings in it, that’s the bottom line. Rose Acres, I have personally, their samples here are fine but, they didn’t bring you a sample of the original product. The original product is what’s going to be going by my house. I’m on the corner, I have the 40 acres on the corner of 500 West and 850 North, they will be coming down one side, turning, going right in front of my house. I have personally been to the Health Department downstairs and have filed formal complaints, twice and he has written them up in the last two years. I have talked to two other neighbors that have filed complaints. Last year we had a time, it was so bad, the flies, you would set down to eat a meal and by the time my wife would set the table before you could get there, there was flies on your plates. So there is definitely a health problem. The raw manure, the finished product is fine here but, the raw manure, no. As far as, like I said the roads, no way, they are never going to handle it. If you want railroad crossing, access, I suggest the old Howard Implement where the fertilizer plant was if there is no smell to this, take it into town. You have railroad track access right there, there was originally a fertilizer plant there, perfect. If not take it over to this golf course but, I don’t want it in my neighborhood. Like I said, I have put my life savings into this home, on my grandfathers ground, and I pretty much know what it’s going to do to my home value. It’s a good thing that I like that ground because I’m probably going to have to be there the rest of my life because, I’m pretty sure that the guys that play golf on this golf course are not going to want to come out and buy my house. Thank you.


President Anderson asked, do we have any other questions from the audience?


Ron Pollock asked, have you ever checked with the Commissioners to see whether…?


Marcus Rust stated, we have not yet.


Ron Pollock stated, you said earlier that if they didn’t do something that you weren’t going to do anything.


Marcus Rust stated, that’s true.


Ron Pollock asked, wouldn’t it be better to…


Marcus Rust stated, well, it’s one of those things that you try to get the cart before the horse or the horse before the cart, and you have to start someplace. It gets into one of those, for us to go here, we would be looking hopefully, next year sometime. We’re going to set up an actual run at the facility in Newton County this fall and it’s just one of those things that take time to get in to with the machinery. It’s hard to go ask to try to get something improved first, you have to get point A, point B that’s down the road issue if there would be some type of conditional type thing.


Ron Pollock stated, I see what you’re talking about, its chicken manure.


Marcus Rust stated, it’s chicken manure, yes. The raw product will run 15 to 25 percent moisture, different times of the year it’s higher or lower.  


President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any other questions? Does the audience have any questions?


Paul Mosher asked, how about the storage on the chicken manure on the 50 acres, before it’s processed or anything is it going to be in buildings or netted?


Marcus Rust stated, everything would have to be in a building of some type, protected from the elements. It would be, we have one in Southern Indiana we put it, it’s like what they call a steel pipe with, like what they have on the football stadiums, that gray canvas type material.


Paul Mosher asked, so is this going to be like 30 acres of storage?


Marcus Rust asked, how much actual storage be there?


Rob Hayes asked, at a time?


Marcus Rust stated, yes.


Rob Hayes stated, the size of the building that we’re looking at doing is no bigger than 100’ x 300’ building, that would hold the whole plant. More of the hoop style building like a big green house but only with a colored canvas.


Marcus Rust asked, what do they call that material? They have a name for it.


Rob Hayes stated, I’m not for sure.


Attorney Altman asked, is this, the type of structure, building that is down South?


Rob Hayes stated, yes.


Marcus Rust stated, yes.


Attorney Altman asked, do you have pictures of that?


Rob Hayes stated, we don’t have them with us but, we have some, yes.


Attorney Altman stated, I would recommend that we table this until we see that, the pictures. I think that would be a tremendous thing, so these folks can see what it’s about, the Board can and the County Commissioners can and see everything right in front of us not knowing for sure.


Marcus Rust stated, one thing that I would like to offer is, we have an existing plant that’s not on our property but, we have a diary farmer down there that operates, we built it on his place and he operates the plant. If someone wants to see, they can holler at Rob or me here and be glad to spend a day, take some of you down and look at it so you can exactly see what we’re attempting to do, or doing there.


Attorney Altman stated, that sounds like a good idea too. I think that if you can present the specifics of your proposal, if they got a rezoning, they have to get a special exception also. With a rezoning, anything that is in the zoning classification can go in there, anything that is in an I-2. When they get a special exception, they have to personalize it down to the very specifics of their proposal. So they might as well be doing this to start with so we can see it from square one rather than the work in progress. That is what I would really recommend to the Board since they know what they are going to be putting in there, pictures and all. Is that all right with you to table it and get that to us?


Marcus Rust stated, that’s fine with us.


Attorney Altman stated, now folks, listen, the next meeting is when Director Weaver?


Director Weaver stated, October the 10th, it’s a Tuesday because of the holiday, right here at the same time.


Jay Clawson stated, with the state that the roads are in, in that area, I have driven those roads doing repair work in all different types of the year and like the neighbors say, they are bad. Unless there is a commitment from someone to do some major road repair, if it be that they have to do the improvements too, it’s not fair for the taxpayers in White County to build a road to the middle of nowhere. Seeing how there is a lot of empty spaces a long the highways that are built to handle truck traffic because, right now I see that it’s heavy industry in a very agricultural area. It’s not even a minor industrial area to anywhere near this. This is like taking the most unimproved area of our county and trying to put heavy industry in it. The thing is, once it’s zoned I-2 it can be scrap yards, anything that can fit in the I-2. Unless they make a commitment with the County Commissioners that there are going to be road improvements, being they put them or if the county is going to improve a straight through road there. Instead of semis trying to turn 90 degree turns back and forth it’s not in my opinion industrial area. Unless there is a commitment to that…


Don Ward stated, I think that they should go 400 West.


Jay Clawson stated, yes but, unless Rose Acres makes a commitment that they want to build 400 West or the Commissions have a letter that they want to do that before they come to us. I feel it’s almost a moot point because, it’s really not developable land at this time.


Don Ward stated, also, I don’t think that your description here goes to the railroad track. That should be checked. If it is what I think, you’re not going to the railroad track and you about 300’ to 400’ from it at the closest. It should be checked. They need to be all of the way with that quarter of a mile they need to be all of the way that quarter of a mile so that they can bring a track in.


President Anderson asked, do we want to table this or do we want to run it through and then have them bring it back later?


Jay Clawson stated, if we table this, that was one of the other stipulations, not only bring what they are planning on doing but, have some kind of commitment from the Commissioners because right now, I wouldn’t feel comfortable voting for this with no road commitment at all. Unless there is commitment somewhere either between Rose Acres with doing a letter of credit to do road improvement through there or the County Commissioners saying that they want to do it.


An audience member stated, I don’t think that two tractor-trailers can pass on that road, pass through.


Jay Clawson stated, I have a service van and I have gone down from John’s house in the springtime and you suck down in those road and it’s hard to drive. I can’t imagine driving semis, plus, there are frost laws in Indiana. Any county roads you can’t be on certain times of the year so unless you have a substantially built road it’s not going to handle it.


Sam Haskins stated, I’m a resident of 500 West and 900 North. I own 40 acres there and I recently built a new home and retired. I have a lot of things to say and probably I shouldn’t say them all as far as air pollution and smell.


President Anderson asked, are these basically the same things that we have discussed?


Sam Haskins stated, they are exactly the same but, I want to stress, you’re dwelling a lot on this highway thing but, I’m sick and tired of the smell that we have and the fly problem. I don’t understand why they don’t keep it right over there on State Road 16 where they are at, they have already polluted the area. I’m sorry gentlemen, but that’s the way that I feel about it. I’m sure that you wouldn’t want me to bring a hog complex or a chicken pound place in your back door.


Marcus Rust stated, if you read the paper, we have people that don’t want grain elevators or bad grain tanks.


Sam Haskins stated, I understand that.


Marcus Rust stated, that’s just one of those, can’t build it in town, you can’t build it in the county. We have a country of people that want cheep food and it’s a very tough, when you go around the county side today, every place that you look in the rural areas there are people coming out buying 20 or 30 acres and building homes. It makes it tough for the farming operations and everything. I’m on, where I live we have DeKaulb, building a brand new warehouse 100’ from the house and its just part of life sometimes.


Sam Haskins stated, it’s not just me, I have a petition here, Exhibit E, with people that have signed it in the immediate area.


Attorney Altman stated, we will certainly take anything….


Sam Haskins stated, I’m not the only one that has a petition, there are a few other people here that have one too.


President Anderson asked, do you want to put those in the record? We can put those in the record right now.


Sam Haskins stated, but, as far as the amount of waste that you’re going to be hauling over here, surely you’re going to stockpile it and I don’t foresee a building of this nature holding what you’re talking about. The amount of fertilizer that you’re going to have to produce to take care of all of the expenses that you’re talking about, it’s going to surely exceed 50 thousand pounds.


Marcus Rust stated, no 50 thousand tons.


Sam Haskins stated, I don’t understand why you have to go with a rail, with that amount.


Marcus Rust stated, we would look at the rail as possibly bringing incoming ingredients and then shipping stuff out. Today we don’t know that we would ever need the rail but, what I tried to say in the past, where we built our soybean crushing plant we wished that we would have been on a rail. We are just looking at one of those situations, if we stick it right by our farm there on State Road 16, we might have to load it up and take it to Monon and reload. Many times you handle something, you’re adding a 5-dollar or 6 dollar a ton extra cost re-handling. We’re looking at it from an economic attempt to try, what we are looking at doing is rather than try to build one processing plant at each, we have 3 locations here in Northern Indiana we try to do it in one central. Whether that site is the best site, the road is what bothers us the most, the road issue. The rest of it we all feel something that we can overcome any of the problems that would be associated with it.


Same Haskins stated, you feel that way but I don’t, I’m sorry. The petitions that we had people sign, a lot were not aware of this, I was informed that there was a posting as far as the…


Attorney Altman asked, sign?


Sam Haskins stated, yes, I went by there this evening and that sign was sitting back off of the road. I’m looking for the sign, the only way that I’m going to see that sign is coming from the North looking for it, I really had to look to see it, it’s back up off of the road into the weeds. It’s not covered completely but, it’s not right out on the front of the road. I personally feel that this is something that our neighborhood does not need. 


President Anderson stated, the reason that we are here, is for the best use of the land and it is agriculture area, it is not an industrial area and that’s what we’re at right here. We don’t have roads or anything that would be able to handle that unless, you’re going to show us something different. There’s no way that we can pass it for an industrial area.


Sam Haskins stated, that’s all that I have to say, thank you.


President Anderson stated, as far as agriculture, you are an agricultural area and things that pertain to agricultural should be built in that area but, this isn’t this is something different.


Marcus Rust stated, we’re kind of one of those half-breeds, I’m sure that they don’t want us in town and non-farm communities. Some of the farm community may not want us out in the county, it’s just one of those, we try to pick someplace where we think that we can upset the least amount of people possible, hopefully.


President Anderson asked, do we have a motion on the floor to continue with this or to table it until the next meeting.


Rob Hayes stated, I would like to kind of answer your question on the survey about our property line being up toward the tracks. We went in to the County Surveyor to get all of the boundaries checked out, there is a triangle piece North of the Rose Acres Farm, that the property lines sits back about 200’ short of the road way, this is what we were told. Mr. Dallas Spencer, on the two properties, the railroad wouldn’t give him access across the railroad because of it being a curved, the railroad being a curve right at that point. I don’t know for sure but, what we were told by the County Surveyor is, Mr. Spencer was suppose to have gotten a hold of Mr. Rust purchased an easement for the triangle piece in the back to sell it. Now, from what the County Surveyor told us he has gotten this but, no deeds or anything was agreed upon. So actually, that property shouldn’t have been sold because, there is no easement to it without them two getting together. The surveyor has record of that, so for the first 200’ of road front that goes to Rose Acre property line to the railroad.


Don Ward stated, but I don’t think that you requested it here, is what I’m saying.


Marcus Rust stated, the triangle does not belong to us.


Don Ward stated, then you are not going to have access to the railroad, if you don’t own that triangle.


Marcus Rust stated, well, they are just being extended. First of all, we would have to give whomever the people of that property a legal to and from their property. Then it wouldn’t be any different than putting a crossing, what they are doing now really we could gate it off.


Don Ward asked, you’re going to bring a railroad track through their property?


Marcus Rust stated, no.


Don Ward stated, I mean if you ever wanted to.


Marcus Rust stated, we own to the railroad.


Don Ward stated, but you didn’t ask for it to be rezoned.


Marcus Rust stated, we asked for the whole 50 acres that we own, to be rezoned.


Jay Clawson stated, they own 200’ on to the thing but the way that those sightings are they need this whole triangle here to put a site in.


There was discussion among the Board.


Attorney Altman asked, are we going to proceed with tabling this?


President Anderson asked, are we going to proceed with tabling this?


Don Ward stated, I make a motion that we table it and that the Rose Acres Farms talk to the Commissioners before our next meeting. Talk to them about that road and talk to the County Highway Department with the Commissioners and discuss where all of the manure is coming from, what direction. How many clients do you have?


Marcus Rust stated, we have one at Brook and one at Francesville.


President Anderson asked, would those be all county roads that you will use?


Marcus Rust stated, they would all be coming in on State Road 16.


Don Ward stated, I think that it should come in on State Road 16 to 400, which would be the shortest route.


Marcus Rust asked, 400 is the one that doesn’t exist right?


Jay Clawson stated, if someone is going to build a heavy industry and they are going to put it in a thing like that, it’s usually the industry thing to make improvements. You are going to have to have utilities back there with that being out in the middle of nowhere. You’re going to have to generate a lot of power, you’re going to have to have 3 phase ran back there, there’s more to it than just taking a piece of property in the middle of nowhere and saying…


Don Ward stated, there’s a lot to it.


Jay Clawson stated, there’s an awful lot to it, it’s not only helping you but, we have to protect everyone in the whole area also.


Marcus Rust stated, that’s right.


President Anderson asked, do we have a second on the motion?


Jay Clawson seconded the motion.


President Anderson stated, so moved. That will be tabled until the next meeting and the next meeting is…


Director Weaver stated, October 10th, it is a Tuesday.


Attorney Altman stated, October the 10th, Tuesday, right here folks. Does everyone understand that? I want to make sure because there won’t be anything in the newspaper, so tell the neighbors that are interested about it.




#723 Gerald R. Wiegand & Tova Johns; Requesting to rezone from A-1 to B-2 on .93 of an acre. The property is located in Liberty Township at 8965 N. Kiger Drive.  

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request?


Gerald Wiegand was representing this request.


Attorney Altman stated, before we proceed, I do represent Mr. Wiegand in this matter and because I do that, I would have a conflict of interest so I’m removing myself at this time.


Gerald Wiegand stated, 8965 North Kiger Drive, Monticello. I have a piece of property out there that I have a shop on. I have worked on my own stuff plus a lot of other people’s equipment, cars, trucks, school buses, police cars, etcetera, whatever came in for the last 25 years. I have a petition that I took around to the neighbors in the neighborhood, with about 140 people, which agree that I should rezone this from A-1 to B-2, this is basically what I’m after. So basically, since zoning is in Liberty Township now, I need to do this, the importance with the rules and regulations of the zoning. I don’t really want to change anything from what we’re doing, we’re not going to have any used car lot or nothing else on the property. I may sell a vehicle there once in a while but, it’s not going to be no 20 cars parked out there or anything like that. I may sell a tractor or something because I farm too. Here is a permit that I got in 1981 to have a business there from the State and entrance off of the State Highway, and you can keep both of them. Basically, I’m just wanting to get everything updated to where I’m at today, on this property.


President Anderson asked, do we have anyone with any questions about this request?


Bob Ivy stated, I live at 8861 North Kiger Road and I listen to what the gentleman said but, it’s not all true. He had cars on there that had prices on it, they were made to take them off they never took the sign, the sign now stands on his office under his air conditioner, no one in the neighborhood got a chance to see it. Now, where all of those people are from Kiger Road, I have no idea because, there are not that many people that live there. The thing to me, they say that there’s not going to be any used car lot but, it gets as high as 15 cars and 3 semi tractors sitting on there not for a day but, for a week. Now, if that isn’t a used car lot with prices on the window, I would like to know what one is. What I’m afraid of, like the other gentlemen I have my life savings put in my place and it’s not worth that much money but, it’s not going to be worth nothing if that goes in. That’s the way that I feel about it and maybe you don’t feel that way and I don’t care. I want you to know that’s why I’m here tonight, that I feel if we do this, the whole neighborhood is going to suffer.


President Anderson asked, does anyone else have any questions about the request?

Ron Orr stated, I live in Shepard Park Addition, my property boundaries Ray’s. We have been neighbors for years, we have a decent relationship and whenever I have concerns he usually tries to address them. Not saying that I agree with what goes on over there but, anyway. Here within the last year, we had an individual across the street from Ray that applied for a rezoning for a used car lot and a repair shop. We protested, it was denied, and I guess that being in the same location on the opposite side of the road, I guess I don’t understand what the difference would be. I think that it will lower the value of the property around there, just like it would before if we put the other lot in and you have safety concerns. I just don’t think that it’s needed in this area, I noticed one thing today and I don’t know an answer to this question, I will ask, as far as posting signs for this meeting is there a time limit?


Ray Butz stated, ten days.


Director Weaver stated, we have done some research on this, the ordinance does not directly address this. At the time that each applicant comes in to our office and files their application, they are told that they need to post the sign at a minimum of 10 days prior to the meeting and it must remain posted until the day of the meeting. That’s the way that has been handled as long as I have been in the office. This new ordinance does not address it that way.


Ron Orr stated, I think Ray might have had it up 10 days prior, it was leaning against the building there in front where his office is but, the day of the meeting I didn’t see it there.


Director Weaver stated, I do have an affidavit here, sign posting affidavit here signed by Mr. Wiegand that says that the sign was erected on the first day of September and it is to remain posted on the property until the date of the hearing. It is signed and notarized.  


Ron Orr stated, until the day of the hearing.


Director Weaver stated, now I do want to comment on that. The picture that you provided, when was that picture taken?


Gerald Wiegand stated, it was taken this morning.


Director Weaver stated, Angie my secretary was out to the property today and the sign was not posted.


Gerald Wiegand stated, we was mowing and the boys put the sign away and it was put back after they got down mowing and it’s still there.


Ron Orr stated, anyway, I’m still concerned, I don’t want a junkyard over there.


Gerald Wiegand stated, we understand that and I don’t either. There’s not going to be as long as I own it.


Ron Orr stated, there’s another problem, as long as you own it. Once that gets rezoned you can sell it tomorrow then lord know what would happen. This B-2 as we understand, you can put almost anything on there with the exception of maybe a junk yard or something like that. It really concerns me as far as the value of my property. My son was going to be here tonight, he’s property owner and boundaries Ray and he was going to be here to echo my thoughts too. He had to put his baby in the hospital today so he wasn’t able to attend tonight but, there are two of us right there that are plainly against this.


President Anderson asked, do we have any other questions?


Joe Pala stated, I have the business across from Ray, Joe’s Mobile Home and RV Supply. I’m kind of concerned about, whether he has the proper licensing like a used car dealer’s license and whether or not he has a license for the shop facilities. I was actually only aware that Ray was going to have a shop for his own equipment and vehicles. Now I see him hauling cars in on a flat bed truck and the same flat bed truck was hauling the cars next door, which Ron Orr had protested against hauling these junk cars in and fixing them up. Well, I’m for progress in Buffalo, I want it to look nice and we have a junk yard on the East side of town and I don’t want one on the West side and I don’t want one bordering my property.


President Anderson stated, as far as his licensing, we can’t get into that here.


Joe Pala stated, I understand that but…


President Anderson stated, what we’re here for is whether that’s the best use of the land to change the zoning.


Joe Pala stated, but, if a person isn’t properly licensed to do those particular things…


President Anderson stated, that’s something that you would have to take up with another Board.


Joe Pala stated, as far as I’m concerned, if he wants to have it for his own stuff, that’s fine.


President Anderson stated, the request is about if we think that it’s the best use of the land to change that zoning. It doesn’t matter what business he puts in there but, it has nothing to do with us as far as if he has licensing or what he’s doing right now. I have no idea.


Joe Pala stated, if I want to sum it up, I put a lot of money in my property to keep it like it is and to have a nice building and everything and I just don’t want something over there that is a shack.


Walt Hough asked, I have known Ray for a while. The only question that I have is, where he has his shop, and this is what my concern is, he has a mobile home park there, he has rental mobile homes. Is he allowed to have rental mobile homes there and put a shop the middle of it? a business there? That is my question.


Director Weaver stated, if it would pass the mobile homes would be grandfathered. He could not move them out and replace them, he could not make any changes to them.


Walt Hough stated, there are mobile homes here to rent and a shop, then there are rental mobile homes here and the shop is right in the middle. That’s the only question that I have. I’m going to have people calling me, I need to give them an answer.


Director Weaver stated, at this time the Zoning Ordinance does not allow residences in a business zoning, so what would be there currently would be grandfathered, and there could be no changes made to them.


Jeff Lawley stated, I work with Ray as well as Rick Summey, we work in the shop with Ray. I live in the neighborhood, I built a new home down Kiger Drive on Cooper within the last 3 years. Ray’s place has always been Ray’s place, it’s looked a lot worse than it does now. There has always been mobile homes out there and different things actually right now, I think that the property looks better than it ever has. With us working for Ray we kind of, he’s over everything there but, we kind of have charge of the shop and stuff. We did let our customers put some cars for sale out there in front it’s true. There were not 15 of them out there, ever. There were 4 cars out there at one time, that was the most. Ray came to us and let us know that that’s not what he wants there, he said that the neighbors would not be happy with that and he wanted them cars out of there. We contacted those customers and had them take their cars away from there, so as far as Mr. Orr here, we have gone back when we heard that he had concerns. We went back to talk to him and told him if you had any concerns at all, you come over and we will work on taking care of that problem. He did not like that there was a couple cars parked there that he didn’t like because he could see them from his property. We offered to put up a fence so he couldn’t even see over there anymore but, he didn’t want that so we took the cars out of there so he can’t even see them from his property. So we tried to be good neighbors as far as that goes and we still are. If anyone comes there and wants us to do something, if we’re making them not happy by something that we’re doing, we try to make them happy. Another thing I want to address is, I understand that there is a guy that wanted to have a car lot across the street there. I don’t know for whatever reason he got denied but, that whole side of the street, from this gentleman’s mobile home, he has a business there. From that side of the street at least a quarter of a mile West, it’s all businesses now, just South of the property, Ray’s property. There are 6 lots zoned business, all of those are zoned business…


Gerald Wiegand stated, it’s West of the property.


Jeff Lawley stated, West of the property, I’m sorry. Ray has had his business there for what 25 years or something. I live in the neighborhood so I’m concerned with property values too and as far as I’m concerned this is my way of thinking from what I can tell in the last year that property has looked better than it has in the last 10 years. So everyone has a thought, and I just wanted to give mine.


President Anderson asked, anyone else have any questions?


Ron Orr stated, first of all, what the gentlemen here just said, I don’t agree with as far as Ray offering to put up a fence. Ray offered to go into partners with me and put up a fence…


Ray Wiegand stated, I agree, I was willing to help put a fence up.


Ron Orr asked, Ray didn’t offer to put up the fence him self. The questions that I have is, you’re saying that the mobile homes on the property now would most likely be grandfathered in as far as, what if the property changes hands? The new owner, would he still be allowed to rent those mobile homes?


Director Weaver stated, as long as they don’t sit vacant for more than 6 months. If the use discontinues for a 6-month period that breaks the grandfather clause.


Ron Orr stated, I was just questioning.


President Anderson asked, do we have any other questions?


Director Weaver stated, I would like to let the Board know what brought this issue all about is Mr. Lawley did come into our office with an application for the State to be able to sell used vehicles on the property. In order for him to get that license we had to sign that the property is properly zoned for auto sales, which that’s when this came about and it was not zoned properly for that. That’s what brought this subject up.


Bob Ivy asked, did I misunderstand something, that he wanted to get a licensing for used cars but he is not going to put any used cars out there? I’m sorry but, if I applied for a license to have a used car lot, do you think that I’m not going to put on, when I get it rezoned? Yet, they tell me that there is not going to be no used car lot.


Gerald Wiegand stated, at this point, we talked about getting one and we found out all of the rules and regulations, since then we have decided 100 percent against it on the rules and regulations so there is not going to be one. Like I said, we have personal vehicles and they park out there. If you have a personal vehicle and it’s nice and it’s clean, we may say bring it down and park it there for 2 or 3 days but, it’s not going to be there for no week. We looked into the regulations and we decided that they were too difficult for no more than we would make off of a few old cars would be worth.


Jeff Lawley asked, do you have a copy of that license that I filled out and turned into your office?


Director Weaver stated, we filled our part out last that I knew we did have that in the office, it is not in the file.


Jeff Lawley stated, actually whom I spoke with, I never talked to you.


Director Weaver stated, I believe that you talked to Angie.


Jeff Lawley stated, what I filled out for was for a transfer dealer’s license, not an auto sales license, a transfer dealer’s license because we do auto repairs there. If we had a transfer dealers license we can go to the auctions, buy cars that have been wrecked and get the motors and transmissions and make a profit by selling those rather than going directly to an auto salvage place and getting our motors, transmissions or rear ends. That’s what our license was, they do have a copy of it in the Area Plan and I do have a copy of it myself, not with me but, I just wanted to clarify that it was not for an auto sales license to have an auto sales lot. It was a transfer’s dealer’s license and they do have a copy on file. I don’t have my copy here. 


Diane Orr stated, my thing is even if they apply for this license, once you rezone it we are out of luck, we don’t want that car lot in our back yard, I have to look at it everyday it’s right there. Trailers are bad enough but, cars, I don’t want junk cars there.


President Anderson stated, his business where it is right now, is it grandfathered in as it is right now?


Director Weaver stated, yes it is. Something else too, if this property was rezoned to business they would be required to put up a fence that is part of the ordinance. Business property that is adjacent to residential property does have to put a fence up.


Bobby Hickman stated, 8841 North Kiger Drive. I want to ask Ray a question, I notice lately at night, have you been testing the cars on Kiger Drive?


Gerald Wiegand asked, do what?


Bobby Hickman asked, have you been testing those cars that you work on, on Kiger Drive? I have been getting a lot of traffic at night and I know that a lot of those people do not come down at the end and stop in.


Gerald Wiegand stated, I don’t have anything down Kiger Drive, I sold all of my property back there.


Bobby Hickman stated, I mean from the shop…


An audience member stated, the cars that you repair.


Bobby Hickman asked, yes, after you repair them, have you been testing them on Kiger Drive?


Gerald Wiegand stated, no.


Bobby Hickman stated, someone has been testing cars there.


Gerald Wiegand stated, no, on my insurance as they got a permit that I have an entrance off of the State Highway says that I have to do the testing of any vehicles on the State Road. I can’t do it on county property.


Bobby Hickman stated, lately there has been a lot of traffic on Kiger Drive.


Gerald Wiegand stated, that’s one of the regulations with my State Permit, I showed them, it’s on my tax license and everything else.


President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions?


Ron Pollock stated, someone said that there weren’t that many, one hundred and some names, there were not that many people around there. How many people live in that area?


An audience member stated, not that many, that’s for sure.


An audience member stated, I couldn’t tell you how many people live there but, if there is a hundred and some people, find my name on there, I live there.


Ron Pollock asked, what area are you talking about then?


Walt Hough asked, what area are we talking about there? What particular area are we talking about right there at Kiger Drive, you have Shepards Park then Kiger Drive you have maybe 30 or 40 homes down that way.


Ron Pollock asked, so he might have 30 or 40 names?


Walt Hough stated, if they are all in that same area but, if he got that way down in all of the other subdivisions, it depends on the addresses of what we’re looking at. That’s what you have to look at.


Jay Clawson stated, there is Monticello people, I looked over it real quick there’s Delphi, several Monon phone numbers.


Walt Hough stated, I think that the people that you want to look at are the area, if I was doing it, there’s Kiger Drive and then you go Shepard Park.


Gerald Wiegand stated, I think that half of them are within 5 miles.


Walt Hough stated, Shepard Park is a dead end.


Gerald Wiegand stated, every one of the signatures are almost someone, that sometime along the way, that I have worked for. Like the one that he mentioned at Delphi, they own the property right across the road from me, so they are there every week.


President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any other questions? If not let's go ahead and vote.


With no further discussion the Board voted.


The results of the vote were as follows: 1 affirmative and 7 negative. This will be presented to County Commissioners for their action. 

President Anderson stated, the Commissioners have the last say on this so I would be there too.


Director Weaver stated, that meeting is normally 8:30 in the morning in this room right here Monday.




Jay Clawson made a motion to adjourn.


Don Ward seconded the motion.




The meeting adjourned.


Respectfully submitted,















Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission