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August 18, 2003 Tape #016

The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:30 A.M. EST in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana with Board Members Ronald A. Schmierer, John C. Heimlich and O. D. Ferguson, Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Dennis W. Sterrett and Secretary Romana Kiser in attendance.

Others in attendance were Engineer Todd Frauhiger, Jack Pherson, Trent Pherson, Allen Howe, Steve Brooke and Charles Mellon.

Chairman Schmierer opened the meeting and recognized Jack Pherson who addressed the Board with information he gathered on the Brechbiel Drain drainage problems. Jack Pherson stated that he and Trent went to Francesville and talked to tile people. He said they also let Allen Howe look at the plans and he shared some feelings on the drainage system. Jack Pherson said, “First Francesville (Tile) looked at it. They felt like the fifteen inch that we have there is too small of a tile. He even questioned an eighteen, whether it would be sufficient. He just felt like it could be on that borderline situation. Allen felt like the fifteen is not sufficient enough to handle the two twelves that we have on the different types of grades. Basically that is what they came up with, they just don’t feel like that fifteen is a big enough tile to handle the water capacity of those two twelves and to move it fast enough to get it out of there to protect our crops. I do understand that the problem that we had there in July was a 100 year rain and in the last couple of years we have seen this situation of water coming up out of these tiles, air wells, with 3, 4 and 5 inch rains. It just seems like we have been having a lot of big rains. I also have a letter here from Samuel L. Moore and Associates stating that they suggested an eighteen inch tile and somehow it got put back to a fifteen. Both Francesville and Allen said that there is one of those twelve inch tiles that could feed a fifteen by itself. Now, Purdue University, they talk about Cubic Feet per Second. I think on a fifteen they are kind of looking at 2.7 at the .16 grade, if they were on that would fill that fifteen up. We have one twelve on a .21 grade. The other twelve, it starts out on .21 and goes for 600 or 700 feet and then it goes to a .34 and that moves a lot of water into that thing. There again, when Francesville looked at it, they said an eighteen would be very questionable. It could handle it, but they just feel like a fifteen is well undersized. Who determined to go down to a fifteen, I don’t know but water just stands way too long. Yes, it does work, but it takes too long to get that water out of there. And by the time we get it out of there the crop damage is already done. Francesville, they like to see the ponding water moved in twenty-four hours. I’ve always felt like thirty hours we have a shot at it. There’s time of the year you can take thirty-six hours and still save the crop. But it was stated in a letter from Samuel L. Moore & Associates at one time they said it was supposed to be an eighteen inch and somehow it got downgraded to a fifteen and I have no idea, I have another letter from Samuel L. Moore & Associates stating where I ought to run another piece of tile in there to take care of the problem. We set out to have this cooperative type drainage project and if I run a ten inch tile, everybody else is going to (inaudible……see tape). There again, we are supposed to be a neighborhood out there working together, and the main goal of everybody out there was to have a quality project to eliminate all of the different water problems that everybody had. I saw one horse person, his horses learned to swim and I had never seen that until this was put in. Allen knows more about what needs to be done, to be fixed. That is totally out of my category, all I am trying to say is, the fifteen is not sufficient. What it takes to fix it, or has to be done, it takes somebody else besides me.”

Engineer Frauhiger also spoke about the Brechbiel Drain saying, “I have talked to Chairman Schmierer about this, you know Paul Couts from C & S Engineering? (Trent Pherson answered yes.) He is a registered land surveyor and a registered engineer. Not last Friday, but a week ago last Friday, I took the entire set of plans, all the drainage calculations that were done by the original design engineer, who is Andrew Cochran, the information that we had gotten from the former County Surveyor, Rick Raderstorf, all the minutes, all the meetings I could get my hands on, a complete set of plans, basically Mr. Couts has everything in existence on this particular project. The letter from Purdue, he’s got everything, he’s got the original design calculations, he’s got the reviewed design calculations that Mr. Finley did, he’s got the reviewed design calculations that I had done, based upon everything that has been done. He was hoping to have a report to us today. He didn’t make it, but I talked to him Friday and he will have a full engineering analysis of this project done for the first Drainage Board meeting in September. We spent three hours together talking about the situation, talking about it’s easy to now sit here and Monday morning quarterback, saying they need to have a bigger tile than a fifteen inch, but the interesting thing is, you eluded to how did it get downsized. The bottom line is, how it got downsized is, the former County Surveyor came to our office for a design meeting with Andrew Cochran. They were together in the conference room and I walked in just in time to hear with my own ears, Andrew had the capacities for each tile clear up to a twenty-four inch tile and the amount of water it……. (inaudible…see tape)….and I heard with my own ears the former County Surveyor say that since there was an existing fifteen inch in currently, it would be a fifteen inch that we would put in with the project. The decision was also made and passed on to me in writing, that knowing that the two twelve inch tiles would have a higher capacity than the fifteen would take, the design consideration that Rick gave us was that he didn’t care if the structure where the two twelves came together, if you get head up on that structure. I talked to that Purdue Professor and she said you are exactly right, remember she said in her letter there were considerations she didn’t take into account, when she did her analysis and one of them was head pressure. What Rick said to do is to let the water in that structure head up and that forces more water into the fifteen. The tile is an inlet control, not an outlet control, meaning more water gets to it, gets out of the end of it, the restriction is not the outlet end, it’s the inlet end, so he said build head pressure up on it so that’s how all the design calculations were done. That’s how Andrew’s original calculations were done, Dave reviewed Andrew’s calculations and redid Andrew’s calculations and actually plotted a hydraulic profile on the furthest upstream and all the way down to the outlet end. Paul’s got it now and I’m going to be very interested to see what Paul comes up with. I did speak to both Paul and his son on Friday and they said they have got the official calculations reviewed and they said that they can’t find fault with the initial calculations. What we’ve got is a situation here where you have 200 acres of watershed and when we have a flooding problem, you’ll have to admit because I’ve been out there, water flows overland. I have been in a situation where that County Road just adjacent to your field, this past rain, I have a four wheel drive pickup truck and I didn’t want to drive through it, I couldn’t tell how deep it was. The State Road, or the paved road, is also a County Road also adjacent to your field, the County went out and put high water signs up and I think you had “road closed” signs on the County Road. There is a tremendous amount of water that comes overland. When you’re looking at 200 acre watershed, the rule of thumb is one CFS per acre at a 100 year storm. That’s rule of thumb, but the calculations would be something different. One CFS per acre at a 100 year storm, you are looking at 200 Cubic Feet per second. We’re talking about drain tile outlets, with all the engineering calculations, eighteen, twenty-four, thirty-six, I don’t care, pick a pipe size, but, say eighteen that’s what everyone seems to be leaning toward, at a 100 year storm you are looking at 200 CFS of water getting there and an eighteen being able to get rid of 60 CFS. So no matter what you do, you can go up to twenty-four even forty-eight or you can put a box culvert underground, it doesn’t matter, when you have a rain that causes overland flow to get to that area you can’t get enough capacity underground to get that water to move downstream. And if you did, quite honestly, the other thing that I’m not sure how it was considered beforehand, but the receiving stream that goes into BLANK CREEK; you have to start looking downstream. If you would for instance put an open ditch in and say we’re not going to hold any of that water back we’re just going to let it all go, that water has to go some place and suddenly….inaudible…see tape. I think the bottom line is, it is being reviewed by an outside engineer, a registered engineer and a registered land surveyor. He’s got every bit of the information that I’ve got, he has in his hands right now. We sat and we talked about ways that we could possibly make the situation better. I’m not sure people are going to like them, but upstream on the twelve inch tiles, where everyone basically has inlets that let the water directly into the tiles, basically what happens now although it’s not going to help a lot because once you get the overland flow that’s what really messes you up. And you said it yourself, Jack, if you just have a normal rain, a two inch rain, a three inch rain, and you’re not having overland flow, that system doesn’t do too bad. And even if it ponds water down there for a day, it still gets away. But it’s where you have, last July (2002), Dave Finley’s letter, let’s see here, 5.0 inches of rain in a 24 hour period is a 100 year storm. And, that was based on the local rain gauge. Dave even went to the national rain gauge in Chalmers and that showed 3.06 inches of rain and that was the highest ever recorded at that particular gauge. That was a year ago July. Then we turn around this July and instead of having a five inch rain we had a, seventeen inch rain or whatever it was.”

Jack Pherson responded, “There again, I have seen several of those five inch rains, I saw five inches one day while I was eating lunch.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I can’t tell you why this is happening but storm systems, look at your County Drainage Ordinance, look at Purdue’s Drainage Ordinance or any County Drainage Ordinance, five inches of rain over 24 hours, in some of these storms it is off the chart. You’re talking like a 500 year storm.”

Jack Pherson stated, “I understand that there is no drainage project ever to be constructed to handle what we got….inaudible….but, we get these 2 or 3 inch rains, the ground is saturated and then two days later we get another 2 inch rain and it just starts backing up because this fifteen inch cannot take care of what the twelves can shove through it. When you get down to it, that fifteen inch will NOT handle what them two twelves are putting into it.”

Engineer Frauhiger answered, “Like Professor Frankenberger said, the capacity of the two twelve inch tiles, each one is roughly ½ of what the fifteen will carry if they are on the same grade.” Jack said, “If they are on the same grade. The twelves are not on the same grade.” Engineer Frauhiger asked, “But do you have “as builts” for the one twelve? You see what’s happening is, even the one twelve that is on the plans as deeper, go out and shoot the “as builts”, which we have and we have given Paul Couts the correct shots of that twelve. That twelve doesn’t come in like it shows on the plan. It was flattened out. Paul has all the “as builts” on the twelves, all the “as builts” on the fifteen, he’s got the shots that you guys took when, remember when you had Wrede’s go out and dig up different spots on it? He has all that information. I think Paul has every bit of information that exists on this thing. The first meeting in September we’ll have Paul’s comments on the design and we’ll have any recommendation he’s come up with anything that can be done. You have eluded to, I didn’t write this letter, Dave did, basically what needs to be done, Ron I think you have been out to the site with Jack one time, and someone indicated that one of those twelves that come in used to go through that low area, is that correct?”

Chairman Schmierer said, “One of those twelves came along the road and of course it is busted. The old tile came along the road. The new tiles don’t cover that area.” Trent said the new tile goes to the high ground; we drain the high ground instead of the low ground. Engineer Frauhiger said, “One question, Trent, you say we drain the high ground. Tell me which tile I am talking about, the twelve is that the branch or the main tile?” Trent said, “The main that goes up through Wayne Hunt and cuts through the hill instead of going along the road, yes, the twelve main is up through the high ground. We even had Mike slide it down even more because he was going to go through…..inaudible…and that saved him some money.”

Engineer Frauhiger said, “That’s one definite difference between the before and after project. Because, if you look at the plan, there is even a note on it that says the existing tile is supposed to be crushed. When the original survey was done, when our land surveyor Ron Nolan and Rick Raderstorf, the survey line, and there was a 200 foot wide survey, and that’s what you see on the survey the existing topo for the 200 foot strip, that was supposed to follow the route of the existing tile. And the reason that was so important at the time, is there was a, by State law, definition of a drainage easement that defines from the centerline of the existing tile. So they wanted the new tile put in as close to the centerline of the existing tile as we could so we didn’t mess around with easements. You guys are now saying that it didn’t follow the route of that twelve inch tile, that’s the difference, because where those two, fifteen and twelves come together, that inlet is probably six to eight inches higher than the low spot and once that low spot fills up with water there’s no way to – do you have the cross section there, Allen?”

Jack Pherson stated, “We created a big retention pond because this fifteen will not handle those two twelves. It boils up out of that main catch basin out there, plus the air wells by the road, so it is a losing battle. The crops in that field are worse than when we started and you have yet to prove to me where you used any common sense this to where, hey this fifteen won’t handle that because we’re putting water into it and the contractors, all the other drainage contractors, they look at it and they say the fifteen is too small. Another contractor said here’s a situation where these two freight trains come to this one tunnel and it won’t take it.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Jack, I don’t care what tile we put in the ground, if we put an eighteen inch or a twenty-four inch, the rainstorms that you have seen in the past two years are still going to pond water in that low area. What you are asking is how quickly we can get rid of it. And see what the problem is, the design calculations, and you have to go by the design calculations, I know common sense has to play some part in it, but design calculations is we have always said two days to get the water out of the field. Which, I think the lady from Purdue didn’t know so she contacted someone from Illinois and he said the same thing. His understanding is maximum of two days. So he probably said at the design storm, which is a ten year storm, all that water collected in this low area and we calculate how much water we are expecting to see, and we calculate how long it will take the fifteen to drain it away. That’s how the design is done. The design calculations that Paul has and is reviewing right now, show that in 48 hours we will have that area dry. Now, you’re exactly right, if you have back to back to back storms, it messes the system up. What happens is the reason we see water boiling out of those inlets, you have a system that totally connects with surface inlets all over the place and when you go further upstream and you see another depressional area in the field, and someone goes out in the field and pops the surface inlet on it, but it still floods, there’s still water standing around some of the surface inlets out there. But you get a certain water elevation in that area and if you look downstream on that same system, and it’s all the same system, and you have another area down there with a surface inlet in it, but it is lower than the one up here, you pressurize the entire system. That’s why your water down here won’t drain until the water up here drains away because you have more head pressure up here.” Jack Pherson said, “And the water up here won’t drain away because down here we can’t get rid of it.” Todd said, “But it all drains away.” Jack said, “Oh yeah, it all drains away. You don’t sit at the bank and say ‘well, Mr. Engineer there says this fifteen acres that drowned out, oh it eventually goes away, but that don’t pay the bill. And, the thing is, when they were out there digging that trench, that was a fixed cost and you said right in here that it needed an eighteen inch. Now how much more was that eighteen going to cost over that fifteen?” Todd said, “It was substantial. When the design was done, Jack, we had calculations. It is substantial, there is a big jump between fifteen inch and eighteen inch, $9.00 a foot at the prices we had back in 2000.” Jack thought $3.00. Todd continued, “I’m telling you it was $9.00 a foot, we had the calculations done. We had all the estimated calculations done. The Drainage Board remembers and I don’t know why no one else remembers this. We had Drainage Board meeting after Drainage Board meeting, you remember Mr. Concerned Citizen, every single penny spent was under close scrutiny and the decision was made by the former County Surveyor, and I can’t find fault with his decision, because he had just gone through the Thimlar project. I’ll give you an example, at the public hearing we had already designed already drawn up on plans, a new eighteen inch tile to replace a fifteen. At the public hearing which happened two weeks before all of this happened, the poor man got crucified. I still have the design plans showing an eighteen and we were instructed after the public hearing to go back to the fifteen because that’s what was in there. So, Rick had some things in the back of his mind when he gets to this project. And then Andrew, couldn’t have been worse timing, says we were thinking maybe an eighteen. Rick wasn’t in any mood to be crucified again. He had been crucified at meetings on this project by Mr. Concerned Citizen. There was no one here to counteract anything that Mr. Concerned Citizen was doing. So I can’t find fault with the former County Surveyor, he said ‘that is what is existing, that is what I’m going to put in, I just went through it on another project and I’m not going to go through it again.”

Jack Pherson stated, “But, you were hired to protect us.” Todd Frauhiger said, “You are right, but when your client tells you that an acceptable condition is with just the two twelve inches draining into that fifteen, if the hydraulic grade line stays in the casting, which it does, that’s acceptable to my client, that’s acceptable to the County, and it does. I talked to Professor Frankenberger and one thing that she said is very correct, what NO ONE can tell is, when you get a big rain storm, how the water is going to flow overland. I never would’ve guessed that when I saw it last July, or this year, that you would have the amount of water coming across those two roads that I saw.”

Jack Pherson stated, “Right, I tried to bring that up in here. I mentioned about some catch basins on CR 175 to catch some of it. They were agreed on and then they went....poof.” Engineer Frauhiger said, “When you get water flowing above the ground, there is no additional capacity in the tile system, I don’t care how many inlets you put in it, it is just doing the same thing. Every time you put an inlet in to a system, you use more of the capacity.” Trent Pherson said, “But I think his point is, he tried to tell people that there WAS overland water. We tried to tell you that at the beginning.” Jack Pherson said, “Right, you have to compensate for that. Like Professor Frankenberger said, you people come out and get a lot of numbers and go back to your office but you don’t quite get the …..inaudible-see tape……as these people who know how to read the lands, stand around out there, look around and they got a quality project. The same watershed, right next to it, I couldn’t believe how it handled this rain. I told Trent think what this would look like if we hadn’t done this back in 1988. The fifteen is undersized, it cannot handle the water the two twelves put in, you guys stated an eighteen and you should’ve stuck with it.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Quite honestly, if you look at the design storm which is a ten year storm, the fifteen is marginal, but it works and we’ll see, we’ll see in two weeks. Now at this particular point, none of that helps anything, so I don’t know at this particular point what we do from here. Suppose you go out there and trench in another twelve inch pipe or suppose we go out there and trench in another fifteen, there are still going to be storms that are higher than those twin fifteens can take away. We are still going to have water standing in the fields.”

Jack Pherson stated, “We have to protect that low area all times of the year in agriculture. You city people don’t quite understand that. It can be the Spring of the year, with total saturation, we get a two or three inch rain, we have our anhydrous ammonia out there, you start getting ponding water on that where does it go? Right down to the lake, then you got …..inaudible – see tape….. I have this philosophy there should be a law against city people ever touching agriculture land. That’s all I have to say right now. The fifteen is not adequate size to handle it and we’ve created nothing but a big retention pond.”

Todd Frauhiger stated, “I want to say this publicly, I have no problem with either one of you guys, I’m just trying to figure out a way to…….” Jack Pherson said he is just trying to protect his investment out there and drainage is the way to do it. He said if he had to pay the difference between a fifteen and the eighteen I would have been money ahead right now.

Todd Frauhiger said, “Allen just said he would be available to meet with Paul so I guess the best thing to do is wait for Paul’s review so we can hear it in person. Allen and I will meet with Paul again.”

Allen Howe said, “I’m in the middle of all this, I have no problem meeting with Paul and Todd and try to look at this again. I did several projects for you that, everyone of them has turned out the same, when you get the rain we had there is no tile capacity that we are talking about. On the other hand, I used to farm, I appreciate Jack’s position here, too, that there’s got to be something done to get this ground back to a farmable place. I did the Thimlar Drain job and if you go up there right now one area of it did drown out but most of it stayed above water. But, we’re back to trying to figure out how much overland water. In the same scenario up there, they keep clearing and we’re the guilty ones, we’re doing the clearing and putting more farmland into the watershed that was woods and there’s so many variables in the watersheds, how many fence rows we had twenty years ago, thirty years ago, how many woods, pasture that slowed water down where now we are talking all crop land with 100% runoff, not 100% but a lot bigger runoff. So I think the Drainage Board needs to re-look at maybe some of the projects, different aspects, if there was a fifteen inch tile – I looked at the job I did for you at Reynolds where we ran another fifteen, that was when Rick was in office, and we left the old fifteen in place and fixed it back (Levin Tucker Tile Drain southeast of Smithson) and Romana was saying that they have the same water problems out there. I don’t think you can design something to handle what we’re having right now. Me, as a drain contractor, I’d love to stand here and say you know, put more tile in and put more tile in and eventually you can’t get enough tile in. If we want to go to a twenty-four inch for their project up there, along with what is in there, I don’t know, I didn’t calculate that out, but it probably would get big enough that you could handle the water.” Chairman Schmierer stated that sometimes the cost is prohibitive.

Jack Pherson stated, “We have to look at the potential……inaudible, see tape….. I saw one of my neighbors; he lost half of his yard. He’s on the upper end of it. I agree, there should’ve been water standing there, but it took way too long. And another neighbor, his horses learned to swim. I’ve NEVER, and ever since this has been put in he’s had this water problem where he has his horses. He’d have a three or four inch rain and there would be just a little skiff of water, now he has a lake. This project is for the future also there is potential for residential…..inaudible, see tape…..I’ll never see it on my place because I won’t allow it, but I don’t blame him for selling off….inaudible, see tape…..but you have to have an adequate outlet for those people.” Engineer Frauhiger said this drain is not an adequate outlet for what you are talking about. He said the guys that subdividers need to get their own outlet because this is an agricultural drain and it just can’t handle it. Jack Pherson said it’s not going to work until that fifteen is straightened out.

Engineer Frauhiger asked what has changed? He said it was a fifteen for forty years. Allen Howe said that farm practices have changed. Engineer Frauhiger asked Jack Pherson if he had ever seen water come overland like it is now. Jack said he had no idea what the grade of the old fifteen was. He asked what was going in to that (old) fifteen? He said eight inch tiles from both of them? Todd asked if he meant from the branches coming down. Todd stated, “They said they were twelves, that’s what the former Surveyor showed twelves. The map that he showed us showed twelves up to the end of both branches. Do you think they weren’t twelves?” Jack Pherson stated, “We dug them up several times and they were eight.” Todd asked if he had ever seen the overland flow come through like it is lately. He said one of your neighbors said he has never seen the water come through his yard. Jack said he would challenge his words.

Allen Howe stated, “Another alternative to the overland water, and we have been doing a lot of them, is waterways, which go through some of the higher ground. We did some in Cass County last summer that we were about three foot deep and they still called it a waterway, grassed the bottom of it down, you get in to where NRCS is paying the cost of doing it, where we can get around some hurdles here and you get rid of a lot of surface water. All of them we did, we went ahead and ran tile down the waterways to drain the field because when we get into, like their low area you are on top of the ground, you’re at the same elevation as what the existing ground is."

Engineer Frauhiger said, “I think Denny mentioned it the last meeting and I wasn’t here, he called it a ditch, but it’s a waterway, it’s the same thing but the one thing I have to caution everybody on is when you release that water that hadn’t been released before, there is some type of impact downstream.” Allen Howe said, “About all of them we’re putting in, we are putting a rock structure to slow it down and catch any sediment or whatever.” Todd said he is talking volume. Allen said the volume is still there, you are going to slow the flow down. Engineer Frauhiger felt you would cause a flood flow some place. Allen said he doesn’t think that is a real big problem on this project.

Chairman Schmierer said we will see what happens when we get with Engineer Paul Couts at our next meeting.

Engineer Frauhiger presented the drainage plans for Vanguard National Trailer Corporation. Engineer Frauhiger stated he is recommending approval of Phase One of the drainage plan for Vanguard National Trailer Corporation. He said Phase One is very limited. There is an existing stone quarry with no outlet, a very large stone quarry. What they are doing is a little bit of new building and a little bit of new pavement to replace some stoned area back there and they are running the water into the quarry with no outlet. They are asking for no detention on this portion of the property. I checked their calculations. They calculated how much detention is required when they do the north end of the property we are going to supply the detention required for this end and the north end and discharge it at a different point. So, at this particular point we recommend approval on this, knowing that all this water is going to go undetained into the stone quarry and they have no outlet. Then when we get the Second Phase in which is the north half they’ll over-detain to make up for what they’re not doing here.

Board Member Heimlich made a motion to approve the drainage plan for Vanguard National Trailer Corporation Phase One. Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.

Attorney Loy discussed the Carter-Hines Drain reconstruction contract letting and the way the project should be assessed. Attorney Loy stated, “As you know we bid that project together, we awarded one contract. The contract bid for all three put together was well under the estimate for the total project. However, we decided to make three different assessments. There are three different legs of the Carter-Hines that we are reconstruction, it’s reconstruction. In doing so, two of them the estimates, or the assessments are well under the estimation of assessments we gave to landowners. But the third one, the Moss and Delaney Branch, the estimate was around $7,000.00 and the actual cost was around $9,000.00. (Surveyor Sterrett stated $9,500.00 was the bid.) And your estimate was $7,000.00 something (Surveyor Sterrett said it was ($7,950.00) and that is more than ten percent and consequently those people, if they are charged that, are going to get a… (sentence not finished)…..and there are how many landowners? There’s not a lot. (Surveyor Sterrett said 188 acres). We were still ok in doing that, but in fairness to those landowners, their assessment shouldn’t be any more than ten percent of what their estimate was given. It is just about done, right? (Chairman Schmierer answered it is done.) I don’t see anything wrong with assessing them the ten percent over their original estimate, but the surplus, which leaves what, about $1,500.00, or under $2,000.00 I believe, it’s not a whole lot but I don’t see anything wrong with taking that out of General Drain Improvement Fund.” (Surveyor Sterrett said $1,200.00 would be the total surplus.) Board Member Heimlich asked, “To be paid back?” Attorney Loy said, “If you pay it back then you are charging them.” Surveyor Sterrett said the Moss and Delaney is paid by the Carter-Hines on maintenance. Board Member Heimlich asked if it could be taken out of the maintenance fund. Attorney Loy asked who pays that maintenance? Chairman Schmierer said all of them (Carter-Hines Drain) do. Board Member Heimlich explained it doesn’t have a separate maintenance fund. He asked how much is in that maintenance fund. Surveyor Sterrett said there is a lot of money in the fund. He stated, “Actually what it did, it lowered the Carter-Hines main by eighty-eight cents an acre and Branch One was $1.66 more, depending on what you do with this.” Chairman Schmierer said, “I would say we take it out of maintenance on the Carter-Hines is the most appropriate way to do it.” Board Member Heimlich said that is what he would think. Surveyor Sterrett said it is just the difference between the engineer’s estimate and what was bid. Board Members discussed the amount and decided it is somewhere around $800.00, less than $1,000.00.

Board Member Ferguson made the motion to take the access charges on the Moss and Delaney reconstruction out of the Carter-Hines Drain maintenance fund. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.

Surveyor Sterrett presented a petition for maintenance on the Big Pine Drain by Jon Thompson and other landowners. Chairman Schmierer asked what he is wanting maintained out there. Surveyor Sterrett said, “Remember we looked at that and I thought we could clean out approximately two miles. It looked pretty good from here on. Some of this has been cleaned up to here (indicated on map). It needs some maintenance there just about where the outlet comes in, too. We’ve been out there and looked at it. It needs some maintenance there to get some drainage for the Vannatta. John Heimlich asked if it was a joint drain. Chairman Schmierer said no, it’s all in White County. Chairman Schmierer said we have money in that maintenance fund. Surveyor Sterrett said we have plenty of money, $18,000.00.

Board Member Heimlich made a motion that we accept the petition from Jon Thompson for maintenance on the Big Pine Drain. Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.

Board Member Heimlich made a motion to approve the minutes of the August 4, 2003 meeting. Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.

Chairman Schmierer adjourned the meeting.