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June 20, 2005 Tape #012



The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:30 A.M., EST in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana with Board Members Steven Burton, O. D. Ferguson and John C. Heimlich, Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Dennis W. Sterrett and First Assistant Mary E. Sterrett in attendance.

Also attending were Bill Pyle, George Voltz, Don Pauken, Jeff Van Weelden, Dow Dellinger and Charlie Mellon.

Chairman Burton called the meeting to order and asked for the approval of June 6, 2005 minutes. Board Member Ferguson moved to approve the minutes. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.

Surveyor Sterrett presented quotes for the spraying of White County regulated drains. Attorney Loy stated, “We have solicited quotes for the annual ditch spraying. We apparently received two, one from Dalton’s of Warsaw, Indiana and the other from Shideler Spray Service of Eaton, Indiana. Is anybody here who submitted a quote whose name I didn’t mention? (No response) The time is past for opening. Dalton’s have a quote for thirty individual projects totally $29, 456.00 and they are broken down by ditch. I think it is based on a……..inaudible. Shideler Spray Service appears to be $17,162.61. Who did we have last year? (Surveyor Sterrett answered Shideler) How did they do?” Surveyor Sterrett said they did a better job last year than they had done the year before. Charlie Mellon said Dalton’s have done it before. Attorney Loy asked Surveyor Sterrett to look at the quotes and see if their numbers add up.

Chairman Burton stated, “So any spray that was done last year was done by Shideler? (Surveyor Sterrett answered ‘right’.) I was not impressed. One of our ditches that got sprayed last year, over fifty percent of it is still green this year.” Surveyor Sterrett said, “I don’t know if your ditch got sprayed last year. I’d have to look. Which one was it?” Chairman Burton said, “The one that goes along SR 18, I call it the Myers but it’s not the Myers.” Attorney Loy asked if that would be on this year’s list. Surveyor Sterrett said no. Chairman Burton said, “Anyway, we are taking them under advisement, correct?”

Board Member Heimlich said, “We are going to have to act on it pretty quick because it is spraying season.” Surveyor Sterrett said he gave a July 31st deadline to finish spraying them. Attorney Loy said, “I would like you to look at them. He specifies a herbicide and I don’t know what Garlon 3A is.” Surveyor Sterrett said that is what they used last year. Board Member Heimlich stated, “There is a list of approved spraying materials. There is a substantial difference in price.” Board Member Ferguson asked if they were spraying the same strength. Charlie Mellon said they would lose a little bit if it was watered down.

Surveyor Sterrett said, “The ditches I looked at seemed to be sprayed. I didn’t look at them all. I had Shideler come back a year ago and he did some dormant spray on a ditch that I didn’t think he got sprayed good. On their contract, they are supposed to get ninety percent kill. This is essentially the same ditch listing we had in 2002 and actually, the quotes are about the same. Shideler bid $18,000 and Dalton bid $25,000 in 2002.” Chairman Burton said, “My personal experience on the ditch, I’d like to see better control, but that could be worked out.” Board Member Heimlich stated, “If that is in the contract, we would just go back and ask them to spray it again.” Surveyor Sterrett said, “All I need is to be told about it.”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “I would move that we accept the low bid from Shideler’s of $17, 162.61 (for spraying of County regulated drains). Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “Attorney Dow Dellinger is here to discuss the Earl Diener Tile through the Rangeline Properties. Attorney Dellinger stated, “What we have, Rangeline Properties got a building permit and then later Dave Anderson (County building inspector) gave us a letter May 3rd - to renew the permit Jeff was going to need to get approval from you guys, need a Consent to Encroach, there’s a ditch running through the middle of the project. It looks like at the closest spot somewhere around ten feet to the ditch, depending on how close they came to that corner. You are about ten foot away at one spot and about twenty plus feet from another building we got laying in there. The ditch runs catty-cornered right through the middle of the proposed construction. Dave just thought we had to get approval from you guys before we update the permit.”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “I think it amounted to a little more than that for the permit, because the tile runs through the……this (drawing) doesn’t actually show…I thought something that I had indicated that part of the proposed ramp was over the tile. This doesn’t show it that way.” Surveyor Sterrett said, “I scaled it off this morning and it is about seven feet to that ramp from the tile as it is drawn in there. I don’t know of any drawing that shows the tile through the ramp.” (Discussions going on are inaudible see tape.) Surveyor Sterrett stated, “My drawing is a little different, a little closer than that drawing.” Board Member Heimlich asked, “How close is it to the corner of that building (drawing being studied)?” Surveyor Sterrett answered seventeen feet, thirteen down at the south end. Board Member Heimlich asked the size of the tile. Surveyor Sterrett said, “Either a ten inch or a twelve inch. I tried to measure it when I was out there Friday. I tried to measure it in that air well, and that air well comes up and goes like that and I couldn’t quite measure it. It is about three to four foot deep. Actually it didn’t have any water in it.”

Chairman Burton asked, “This tile flows to the northeast or southwest?” Surveyor Sterrett answered southwest. Board Member Ferguson said it cuts across the road (300 E) and then it cuts north again. Surveyor Sterrett said it goes straight west to the Diener Ditch. (Aerial studied – see tape) Board Member Heimlich said, “I am trying to vision what this is going to be. Basically concrete bins? The area out front, is that going to be blacktop? Stoned or?” Jeff VanWeelden said, “The drive (ramp) going up will probably be concrete. The rest will be stone around it.” Board Member Heimlich said, “So what you are basically asking for is Consent to Encroach?” Dow Dellinger answered, “Right, there won’t be any part of the tile that will be covered, we don’t want to move any of the ditch, we just want to have, because you have a 75 foot easement (right-of-way) both ways running through there.” Board Member Heimlich answered, “Yes, and obviously we don’t need 75 feet, but seven feet is pretty close to a permanent structure.” Board Member Ferguson said a tile takes less room to work on it. Board Member Heimlich agreed but said it is a question of how much you might need. (Conversations inaudible – see tape) Surveyor Sterrett discussed elevations and inverts of the tile – see tape.

Don Pauken spoke, “Because of my past profession, I feel I am ethically obligated to suggest that you look at this from the big picture relative to the transfer station and the drainage problem. I don’t know which print you are looking at; I hope it is the revised edition as far as where the drain goes. Mr. Sterrett pointed out the loading ramp which is 8 inch, on surface is 8 inch reinforced concrete, horizontally reinforced and vertically reinforced with a retaining wall, certainly gets within ten feet of that drain and I think the Ordinance allows you to go within 20 feet; you can give an easement up to twenty feet. This is a new structure, so it should follow the Ordinance that it can’t go that close to that particular drain. Even the State backs that up in saying ‘Hey, by State law, depending on when this drain was put in, you can get within fifteen feet, but that’s it.’ There’s another problem that I might point out to you, is where the septic happens to fall. It is right over the drain and I don’t know where the leech field is. The other problem is also, gravel. I assume the gravel drive is going to be compressed, I would think so, and again according to the Ordinance, a compressed gravel surface is an impermeable as well as of course the building itself, the facility, and that takes up over a quarter of an acre on this lot which is less than two acres in size. Therefore, there is a drainage problem and that’s what we are trying to solve here. I think we need to look at these things before….the TOTAL picture….before any variance or easement is given on this particular drain.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “What Ordinance are you referring to?” Mr. Pauken answered, “36-9-27-33 Indiana Code.” Board Member Heimlich said, “Oh, you are talking about Indiana Code, ok.” Attorney Dellinger said, “IDEM’S engineer has already approved the engineering of the plan. We already have the IDEM permit.” Chairman Burton asked, “Did they know about the drain?” Attorney Dellinger said, “Yes, they received a copy of the…..that’s why it was done originally.” Mr. Pauken stated, “IDEM, cover letter for the permit, says ‘In accordance with this, so forth, in accordance with Indiana Code, it says ‘In the permitting …inaudible….…this does not authorize any person……..inaudible…..(See tape.)

Chairman Burton stated, “We are dealing basically with an encroachment issue right here today. And it is not how much stone, etc. etc.” Board Member Ferguson said, “It is how much distance.”

Board Member Heimlich said, “I had another question, what I have is the traffic flow diagram and it shows the traffic flow, semis coming in on the property to the west. I guess what I’m talking about is the big picture of getting the cart before the horse. This is showing the traffic flow on the property that is, currently has not been rezoned. It is my understanding that without that rezoning this traffic flow would not be proper because this would be rezoned as part of this business.” Attorney Dellinger said, "That lot wouldn’t have to be zoned anything just to use ingress egress. They could run over it, if that’s all they’re using it for.” Board Member Heimlich said, “Well, I have asked that question and have gotten a different response.” Attorney Dellinger said, “Your zoning ordinance says that any use is proper for ingress egress.” Board Member Heimlich said, “So I want that cleared, because I have asked that question and the response has been no. So in order for this traffic pattern to be a part of this then this would have to be rezoned because it is part of the transfer station. I guess I’d like to have that cleared up before we make any decision.” Chairman Burton said, “For the fact that the traffic pattern would change and could affect the tile.” Board Member Heimlich said, “It could affect everything there. I don’t think while I’ve been here we have ever granted a Consent to Encroach that close to a permanent structure unless it was something that was already there. Of course that’s the case here as well; it is close to an existing building. But obviously when it is that close, anything that happens to get moved a foot or two makes a big difference.” (Discussions on locations - see tape.)

Board Member Heimlich stated, “There were a couple of questions, George (Attorney Loy) that were raised here. One by Mr. Pauken on the Indiana Code. How close you could grant Consent to Encroach. Attorney Loy asked how close they are wanting to go. Board Member Heimlich said, “It is seven feet from the corner of that proposed building. That’s pretty close; a couple of feet could make a big difference there. The other question was on the facility layout, the traffic flow diagram, it shows the semis coming in and leaving on the property to the west that is currently, that is one of the properties we had talked about the rezoning issue. It is currently not zoned with the industrial property to the east. It’s not part of that property.” Attorney Loy said that is the zoning request that has been stayed. Board Member Heimlich said that is one of them, there are two. Attorney Dellinger stated, “Just for the driveway use, our thought is you’ve got your special provisions #32002 allows driveway use in any zoning.” Board Member Heimlich said, “I had asked Area Plan about that, probably two months ago, in a meeting and I think I had re-visited that after that, as to whether that traffic flow pattern they show here could be used if this property was not rezoned, and the answer I got from them was ‘no’, it would have to be rezoned if that traffic pattern is going to be part of this transfer station.” Attorney Dellinger said, “I think if it’s just access use then there doesn’t have to be a different zoning. If there was other use for it I think there would have to be.” Board Member Ferguson said, “Just if you had to cross it you wouldn’t have to have it rezoned.” Attorney Loy said, “Drive across what, that western tract in order to get to this new proposed road?” Board Member Heimlich said, “Maybe we shouldn’t expect an answer today but I guess the question that will get into is whether that is actually just ingress and egress or whether that is actually part of the actual process there with the transfer station, with the trucks coming in, I don’t know.” Attorney Loy said, “But as far as what you are requesting from the Drainage Board today?” Attorney Dellinger said, “Today is just a Consent to Encroach within the seventy-five foot easement.” Board Member Heimlich stated, “My one question there is whether there is something, I can’t ever recall giving consent that close, within seven feet.”

Attorney Loy said, “I don’t either, but I think you are permitted to do it. There is a provision for if you are having a new drain, that’s not what we are doing here, but if you are having a new drain being established you can reduce your right-of-way to less than the seventy-five feet. You can bring it up to like twenty-five on an open ditch, fifteen or twenty on tile. But you can give him Consent to Encroach or if you want to, you can give him Consent to Encroach on top of it if you want. You don’t want to do that. You could give your Consent to Encroach seven feet or whatever it is. But, it has to be fairly tightly drafted so that they bear the responsibility of any problems that encroachment causes. Who knows what that might be. How long has that drain been there, some time? It’s an old one isn’t it?” Board Member Heimlich said, “Yes it has been there a long time, it is already probably seven feet from that corner building, maybe even closer than that to that one to the east.” Surveyor Sterrett agreed that it is that close there, too.

Attorney Dellinger stated, “We talked to Bobby Wrede about moving the tile and he said that was no problem and then he said go ask for a Consent to Encroach so he could get in and work on anything that close without a problem. That was our understanding that it wouldn’t be a problem getting access to a twelve inch tile that is three foot deep.” Board Member Heimlich said, “Well it may not be, I don’t know.” Attorney Loy said, “I don’t recall the Board granting one that close, but it can be done, but you want to be careful.” Board Member Heimlich said, “I guess I’m not comfortable today saying ‘go ahead’. I don’t want to get the waters muddied anymore. The others think we have enough issues in the pot right now.” Attorney Loy asked what the name of the drain is. It is the Earl Diener Tile Drain. Board Member Heimlich, “Denny you said you were going by scale on the drawing. We can go out there and locate the tile. And then I guess there’s a way to figure on this proposal where that building is. How would you do that?” Surveyor Sterrett said, “You would need a scale drawing to determine where it is going to be. The dimensions of how far it is from the side line, from the back line and dimensions of the building, how far the ramp goes, right now I don’t see that.” Board Member Heimlich said, “Well, that’s what I wondered about. That again is another concern. You could grant the consent but if that building got moved three or four feet………” Chairman Burton said, “Whatever we are talking about here, we are just guessing. We actually don’t have any…….it could be worse for us or it could be better. Right now we can’t get to that point of whether it is good for us or not. There’s a lot of variables in where our tile exists with this building.”

Board Member Ferguson said, “They said they would move the tile if it had to be moved. I can’t see any reason why we shouldn’t go ahead and give him Consent to Encroach.” Chairman Burton said, “That’s not what is before us today. That would be another issue.” Board Member Heimlich asked, “What are you talking about, moving it or the Consent to Encroach?” Board Member Ferguson stated, “I say give him Consent to Encroach, but he said he could move it if it had to be moved. The tile, when they build their building.” Board Member Heimlich said, “We know that’s possible, that’s a reconstruction. That would be a petition.” Board Member Ferguson said, “Yes, but if they did it themselves….” Board Member Heimlich said, “It is still it is reconstruction of the tile. Even if the cost was all his, you still have to have the Hearing.” Attorney Loy stated, “You have to give notice, and have the Hearing.” Chairman Burton stated, “I would like to have some more definite facts and figures before, the fact that the building, we don’t know exactly where it exists with the tile, and your advice that it’s not the County’s obligation here to pay for…. (Attorney Loy said, “Finding exactly where it’s at.”)…in relationship to the building.” Board Member Heimlich said, “I wouldn’t feel comfortable granting them the Consent to Encroach today. I’m not saying ‘no’, but I think we need to be just a little more sure how close we are and how big of a problem it might be. I guess I move we table the request at this time. Not deny it, but table it and see if we can get some more information.”

Attorney Dellinger asked, “What all do you guys want? Obviously locate the corner so we know…..” Board Member Heimlich said, “Yes, I think we need to know EXACTLY how close this permanent structure part of this transfer station is going to be to the tile.” Board Member Heimlich said, “So, I make that as a motion that we table that request.” Chairman Burton seconded the motion. Attorney Dellinger asked, “When is your next meeting?” Attorney Loy answered July 5th. Chairman Burton stated, “We have a motion and a second, or do we have to have a motion to table?” Attorney Loy said yes. Board Member Heimlich said, “I didn’t put a date in my motion.” Attorney Loy advised, “Why don’t we just table it and put it back on the agenda when you get it.” Attorney Loy asked, “You don’t have a problem with them exposing the tile? Can they expose the tile?” Surveyor Sterrett said, “Sure. Really there needs to be a drawing made of where the tile is in relationship to the buildings because if we find the tile, we don’t know exactly where the building is going to go.” Attorney Loy said, “Right, and that would be their responsibility. We know it goes through there.” Board Member Heimlich said, “So we are just tabling it and we will put it back on the agenda when we deem appropriate.” Attorney Dellinger stated, “We can let you know as soon as we get a drawing back.”

Chairman Burton said, “Ok, so we have a motion and a second. Those in favor say aye. Those in favor say no.” The motion carried 2 in favor 1 opposed.

Surveyor Sterrett reported on Hendrickson Chrysler-Plymouth drainage plan saying, “Last meeting we didn’t have an analysis sheet. Since then one has been provided to the Surveyor’s office and to CTE Engineers for their review. Todd (Engineer Frauhiger) called me this morning and said that it is ready for approval. What they are doing is they are asphalting here (pointed out on drawing) and here, this is an existing detention pond with a fifteen inch outlet. They are lowering the outlet, grade on top of it, and they are going to take that off and widen out the detention pond to take the extra runoff into Buss Ditch. Any questions? Todd has looked at it, he called me this morning.”

Chairman Burton said, “They just came to us for the Encroachment here.” Surveyor Sterrett said, “Right, we need to talk about that, too.” Chairman Burton added, “And we really didn’t have an issue other than needing this.” Surveyor Sterrett said, “Todd called me this morning and said he checked their volumes and everything was alright for the drainage approval. I don’t know where George (Attorney Loy) is at on the Consent to Encroach. I brought over a deed.” Attorney Loy will prepare it.

Board Member Heimlich made a motion that the drainage plan for Hendrickson Chrysler-Plymouth additional parking lot be approved. Board Member Ferguson seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously. Attorney Loy asked what the Board is agreeing to in the Consent to Encroach. They will be within the seventy-five foot right-of-way of the Buss Ditch (see drawing).

Chairman Burton adjourned the meeting.