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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, June 11, 2001, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, Ron Pollock, Don Ward, Scott Kyburz and Rick Raderstorf. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Charles R. Mellon, Daniel G. Bradfield, William R. Krintz, Michael E. Dotson, Marvin Johns, Joey Stiltz, Denise Denton and Bob Wrede.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Don Ward made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of May 14, 2001. Motion was seconded by Jay Clawson and carried unanimously.

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#757 William & Sharon Krintz; Requesting to rezone from R-2 to R-3 on 1.752 Acres. The property is located in Honey Creek Township at 1125 W. 300 N.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request?

William Krintz was present to represent this request.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here with any questions about that request at all? Do the Commissioners have any questions?

Don Ward asked, is it large enough?

Director Weaver stated, yes, square footage, yes it is. It’s currently zoned R-2 and it has a duplex on it now. We had rezoned this previously. We have not received any calls or concerns from the neighbors.

President Anderson asked, does anyone have any questions about this?

Don Ward asked, are you planning on building another building?

William Krintz stated, no, there is an unattached garage that sits away from the house about 50’ and I was going to make another apartment in it.

Jay Clawson asked, how many more structures can he add on this property if we rezone it?

Don Ward stated, several because, it’s multiple.

Director Weaver stated, yes, multiple and it’s a pretty good size piece of property.

Attorney Altman asked, what would be the total then Director Weaver?

Director Weaver stated, I have not calculated it, I can not answer your question.

Attorney Altman stated, it says that it’s 1.752….

Director Weaver stated, let me tell you what the requirement is, R-3 zoning requires 7,000 square feet per unit.

Attorney Altman stated, so that’s more than 10.

Don Ward stated, he could put 10 on there.

Director Weaver stated, this area is also on a septic system, it is not in an area that might go on the sewers at all, it’s strictly septic system.

Attorney Altman stated, well it does but it doesn’t. It only limits it with the sewage system there. The square footage it doesn’t, it would have to have one for every family unit there. Excuse me, you would have to have sufficient to deal with every family unit there.

Director Weaver stated, before we could issue a building permit to put a unit in he would have to have septic approval.

Jay Clawson asked, this would have to be set far enough from, if that has it’s own well it has to be set far enough from the existing septic system.

Director Weaver stated, unless he uses the same system which, I don’t know if that would be allowed or not allowed.

Don Ward stated, I don’t know why it wouldn’t, to expand one and take care of all of them….

Jay Clawson asked, you would have to have one well far enough for all of them. Is the garage a sufficient enough size to actually call it an apartment?

Director Weaver stated, I have no idea at this time how big the garage is.

Attorney Altman stated, you are going to have to have a building permit no matter what.

Director Weaver asked, do you know how big the garage is?

William Krintz stated, I think there is like 800 square feet, we may have to put a little “L” in, it to get it big enough for what I want. We’re just now seeing if we can get the R-3 and I need to get a hold of the sewage people, I realize that.

Attorney Altman stated, this might, we’re talking about 3, it might be a real good time to suggest that a commitment that holds it at 3, would be in line. It might eliminate some of the concerns that I hear the Board talking about. What that would be is you would just agree, a commitment is an agreement that says that if this is rezoned R-3 even though it can have 10 on there like President Anderson just said, you’re only going to only ever put 3 on there.

William Krintz stated, yes.

Attorney Altman asked, would that be agreeable?

William Krintz stated, that would be fine.

Jay Clawson asked, that would keep him from being able to sell off

Attorney Altman stated, it would all have to be together….

Jay Clawson asked, not subdividable?

Don Ward stated, could he sell off a half acre?

Attorney Altman stated, no, he would have to have the whole unit together the 1.752 acres together, it would be a commitment for the whole amount.

William Krintz stated, I think that you can only divide it one time right, unless you go through a subdivision?

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

William Krintz stated, which, I have already done so we’re waiting for that 8.7 or whatever and this is all to one side of it.

Attorney Altman stated, this would be a commitment that it would all stay together the whole tract, the 1.752 acres and only have 3 residences total on it. You need to get a hold of me before it goes to the Commissioners then.

William Krintz asked, when is that?

Director Weaver stated, we need a commitment, my opinion is, we need to get the commitment in place before we even vote. With the problems that we ran into with the last commitment, I would, what are your opinions on that? We had some problems with the last commitment and I will tell you that these commitments are going to be very hard to police in the future. It’s going to be very difficult for us to keep track of. I have real concerns about these commitments.

Attorney Altman stated, they are hard to police, they really are.

Director Weaver stated, I feel like the Board needs to see these commitments before they go on to the Commissioners, that’s my opinion.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s not a bad opinion, that’s a good opinion, I won’t argue a bit.

Jay Clawson stated, these are something that we just started using in the last year and this is the first that we have heard that you have had any problems at all with them.

Director Weaver stated, in the office, we record them, they are recorded in the Recorder’s Office so, they are of public record but I just foresee problems with them in the future. When a new director comes in or a new staff comes in how are they going to be aware of these commitments, that is my concern. We can note them but if you don’t have a good system in place to check and know that these commitments are there I just foresee problems.

Don Ward stated, maybe you need to get a good system.

Attorney Altman stated, they have a good system and it’s still very hard.

Don Ward stated, you’re going to have to have a separate file for every one of them.

Director Weaver stated, they bring us a copy of their legal description and we have a copy of the commitment in the office. Then we record that the ordinance that rezones it and we record a copy of the commitment. So the originals are always on file in our office but, you have to realize that we have almost 1,000 rezoning already at this time plus the variances.

Jay Clawson stated, what I’m saying is when they bring you a copy of the deed for that…

Director Weaver stated, it doesn’t show…

Attorney Altman stated, it doesn’t show on the deed.

Don Ward asked, I thought that it was recorded with the deed.

Director Weaver stated, it’s recorded with the rezoning Ordinance.

Don Ward asked, don’t you have a file on each one?

Director Weaver stated, we have a file on each one but unless when they come in for a building permit you pull that file or you know that file exists.

Jay Clawson asked, can’t they put some kind of marking on the deed so when they copy that it would show that there is some kind of asterisk or something that needs to note that there is some kind of…

An audience member stated, I thought that went right with the deed.

Attorney Altman stated, it doesn’t. See they won’t record it if, in the scheme of things and generally that's what happens most of the time. We very rarely are rezoning, it just that they own it and they want to do something different with it and they don’t do a thing with the deed.

Director Weaver stated, when there is title work done, then it should be picked up through the recorders office but, if there is a cash sale, most of the time there is title work done but, not always.

Don Ward stated, just have a file for each Township and inside of that there is one for every section and then one for every addition, subdivision.

Attorney Altman stated, it has to be maintained that’s right, so that Director Weaver and I can dictate a commitment right now. So that the Board knows, Mr. and Mrs. Krintz knows where I’m speaking at. If they agree to it the Board can then, with the understanding that it would be reduced to writing later on since this is a fairly simple one and…

Director Weaver stated, that’s up to the Board, I just wanted them to hear my concerns.

Attorney Altman stated, and I agree with your concerns but since this is, what I think, would be fairly simple this would allow Mr. Krintz maybe to proceed and Mrs. Krintz to proceed with the potential rezoning without another months involvement.

David Rosenbarger stated, if it’s going to be pretty much controlled with the septic system and the well and all of that, why do we really need to worry about it?

Attorney Altman stated, because I have seen people….

David Rosenbarger stated, just go ahead without checking….

Attorney Altman stated, you bet, all the time.

Director Weaver stated, I will tell you something too, once it is rezoned, not saying that Mr. Krintz is going to do this but, a future owner down the line with it being zoned R-3 they see that it’s zoned R-3 we can put another unit in there.

Attorney Altman stated, you bet you.

Don Ward stated, or 2 or 3….

Attorney Altman stated, yes or 10….

Jay Clawson stated, or as many as they possibly can.

Attorney Altman asked, therefore, I guess what I’m saying is that the commitments that I’m suggesting that the applicant have to the Board tonight, the Board consider that on the legal description the 1.752 thousands of an acre. It to be restricted to the following use and the following use only and it have a maximum of 3 residences on it period. Do you have any trouble with the Mr. & Mrs. Krintz?

William Krintz stated, no sir.

David Rosenbarger stated, so our approval would be subject to…

Attorney Altman stated, subject to that commitment and I agree that is another thing that is going to have to be improved on…

Director Weaver stated, I don’t have a problem with my staff…

Attorney Altman stated, I do have because, 25 or 30 years down the road we all say that we know now.

Director Weaver stated, right now, my staff is aware of these commitments are going on but, the staff in the future is not going to.

President Anderson asked, I say let's go ahead and vote then.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 1 negative. This will be presented to County Commissioners for their action.

Attorney Altman stated, subject to the commitment as recited as condition on this rezoning. That meeting will be…

Director Weaver stated, next Monday.

Attorney Altman stated, next Monday at 8:30 in the morning, they have the final say and their vote will be subject to this commitment so, you probably need to get a hold of my office tomorrow and get that commitment so that both of you can sign it.

Director Weaver stated, if we get it drawn up tomorrow or the next day we can probably get it mailed to the Commissioners so that they can actually review it before their meeting.

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#758 Daniel Bradfield; Requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-2 on 3.978 Acres. The property is located in Monon Township at 2134 W. State Road 16.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request?

Daniel Bradfield was present to represent this request.

President Anderson asked, does anyone have any questions about this request at all? Do the Commissioners have any questions about this request?

Director Weaver stated, we have not received any complaints in the office on this.

President Anderson stated, I say that we go ahead and vote.

David Rosenbarger asked, this property could be subdivided right?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, it can.

Jay Clawson asked, if he were to subdivide, it would be subject to what only one duplex on this property with it being R-2?

Director Weaver stated, with it being R-2, yes, it could only be one duplex. I have not gotten any information on a subdivision yet or the property dimensions or anything like that. So, to the best of my knowledge yes, it can be subdivided.

Attorney Altman asked, it could be subdivided as an agricultural tract also on the road there eventually, it would be 3 lots on the road there. Obviously, it would be more lots on an R-2, significantly more right Director Weaver?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, it drops down to almost double.

Director Weaver stated, for single family residence it’s required 6,000 square feet in an R-2.

Attorney Altman stated, this would all be septic, I presume, being that far out.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to County Commissioners for their action.

Attorney Altman stated, Monday morning right here, they have the final say.

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#258 Marvin Johns; Requesting secondary approval of a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Johns Subdivision on 1.550 Acres. The property is located in Liberty Township on the South side of State Road 16, just West of C.R. 700 E.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing this request?

Marvin Johns was present to represent this request.

President Anderson asked, do we have any questions from the Commissioners about this request?

Director Weaver stated, we have done primary on this, it has received drainage approval, there are no improvements to be put in and this is up for secondary.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions?

Jay Clawson asked, does it meet all of the requirements?

Director Weaver stated, to the best of my knowledge, yes.

President Anderson asked, does anyone in the audience have any questions? If not I say lets go ahead and vote.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Johns Subdivision located in Liberty Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

Attorney Altman stated, that takes 10 days to give time for appeal.

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#259 Denise Denton & Joey Stiltz; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Wanda’s Acre on 3.330 Acres. The property is located in Monon Township northeast corner of C.R. 500 W. and State Road 16.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing that request?

Denise Denton and Joey Stiltz were present to represent this request.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions about this request?

Jay Clawson asked, is the house in the picture, is that on this property at all, or is that on a different property?

Attorney Altman stated, that is on this lot, on lot #1. This is the one that the Board of Zoning Appeals at the last meeting it was, a variance was allowed, a fine was imposed on the applicant, the subcontractor and the contractor for putting it in this position. A variance was granted to allow it to be sited within 30’ of the State right-of-way.

Jay Clawson asked, should it not be shown on this subdivision?

Attorney Altman stated, I agree, yes, I think so I think that it should.

Don Ward stated, I don’t think that he has an entrance on the highway, I think that the entrance is over on the county road.

Joey Stiltz stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, that’s probably why they granted it.

Jay Clawson asked, ingress and egress are going to be over both of these lots?

Gary Barbour stated, no, just off of lot #1, coming off of the county road. Lot #2 will have to come off of the highway.

Attorney Altman stated, that was my question too.

Gary Barbour asked, it actually faces the county highway?

Joey Stiltz stated, no, it faces the State Highway.

Attorney Altman stated, the plat, as I understand doesn’t require it. It should be recorded.

Jay Clawson stated, yes, it should be.

Attorney Altman stated, and again this just shows to everyone that, they don’t have to hire an engineer to go out and shoot it and do any extra work.

Jay Clawson asked, it should be on the final plat.

There was discussion among the Board.

Jay Clawson asked, are there any utilities going up 500 West?

Joey Stiltz asked, from this area?

Jay Clawson asked, from 16 North across your property here, are there any power lines or anything?

Joey Stiltz stated, yes, they go straight to our house but, where that lot is right there. there is nothing in the ground, no lines.

Jay Clawson asked, it’s coming across. I mean the power lines on that side of the road running North?

Joey Stiltz stated, I’m not sure what you’re asking.

Jay Clawson stated, usually in a subdivision utility easements should be shown on your plat if there was like power lines running all of the way to the North up your road, up 500….

Joey Stiltz stated, yes, there are power lines going up both roads.

Jay Clawson asked, is it on your lot. or is it across the road going on the other side?

Gary Barbour stated, this is State Road 16 right here, this is the font of the house here…

Attorney Altman asked, are they on your side of the road?

Joey Stiltz stated, yes, they are on my side of the road.

Attorney Altman asked, the poles are on your side?

Joey Stiltz stated, yes.

Attorney Altman asked, and over here too?

Joey Stiltz stated, I’m not positive on the county road.

Attorney Altman stated, that is what they are trying to find out, those need to be noted on there.

Denise Denton stated, okay.

Joey Stiltz stated, I’m not positive on that.

Attorney Altman stated, on State Road 16 he says yes, they are on his side. He is not sure on the other so, those should be noted on there.

Jay Clawson stated, right if there are power lines going up on your side, on County Road 500, if they are on the other side of the road from you, you don’t need to have them on your plat.

Joey Stiltz stated, okay.

Jay Clawson asked, I’m sure that R.E.M.C. has what a 20’ right-of-way? What is their right-of-way?

Attorney Altman stated, good question, what those right-of-ways generally run.

Don Ward stated, they don’t run that wide.

Rick Raderstorf asked, they are usually right along the County right-of-way, aren’t they?

Don Ward stated, yes, about 5’ or something like that.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s probably what I would think, 5’ or something like that.

Jay Clawson asked, do you have N.I.P.S.CO. gas there?

Denise Denton stated, R.E.M.C.

Jay Clawson asked, do you have natural gas there?

Joey Stiltz stated, yes, we have natural gas, it’s from Blue Flame, I think.

Jay Clawson stated, well if you have tanks you’re on LP gas.

Joey Stiltz stated, yes.

Jay Clawson stated, a lot of time running up the State Highways, N.I.P.S.CO. will have gas, high-pressured gas lines and they need to be noted too, if you have something like that.

Attorney Altman stated, that needs to be noted on this plat.

Jay Clawson stated, he said that they don’t have, usually if they have high-pressured….

Attorney Altman stated, I’m not only talking about that, the lines and everything. We need to have Milligan put that on.

Jay Clawson asked, we’re only doing primary aren’t we?

Director Weaver stated, we have drainage, we can do secondary.

Jay Clawson stated, they don’t have the utility easements on the lot.

Director Weaver stated, they are, let me look at my notes but, I think that there was a comment there are not utility easements on it….

Attorney Altman stated, he just said that there are.

Director Weaver stated, I will double check.

Joey Stiltz stated, you know what, I could be wrong.

Denise Denton stated, we never paid attention to it.

Joey Stiltz stated, I thought that there were but, maybe they’re not. Now that I think about it I don’t think that they are, I think that they are on the other side of the highway.

Denise Denton stated, we don’t have any on our side, I don’t think.

Director Weaver stated, the surveyor told me that there were no utility easements on this property.

Attorney Altman stated, they do want Jim to put the variance number on this.

Director Weaver stated, I already have that noted for him to do that.

Ron Pollock asked, is that N.I.P.S.CO. out there?

Denise Denton stated, R.E.M.C.

Joey Stiltz stated, R.E.M.C.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that the requirements of the Board is that the home variance be shown on the final plat and apparently we are coming down to reviewing the pictures. You are mistaken, there is not a utility line on your side of the road.

Director Weaver stated, looking at these pictures, I think that they are on his side.

Don Ward stated, I don’t think so.

There was discussion among the Board members.

Director Weaver stated, they access off of the county road, not the highway.

Joey Stiltz stated, if you look past my property you can see that there are poles on the other side of the road.

Attorney Altman stated, then they need to be on that plat too.

Jay Clawson stated, yes, they are on your property.

Joey Stiltz stated, all I think is just one pole and then the rest of them are across the road.

Attorney Altman stated, it needs to be on there. The other thing is the access off of County Road 500.

Ron Pollock asked, are we going to add additional information to the drawing?

Jay Clawson stated, variance must be shown, utility easements, if Jim goes out there and inspects that and there is not any on there, then it doesn’t have to be on the plat. I just want to make sure.

Director Weaver stated, I can go back out there.

Attorney Altman stated, and the access easements off of County Road 500 on lot #1.

Director Weaver asked, lot #2 is going to access off of the highway?

Denise Denton stated, yes.

Director Weaver asked, your house is on lot #2 or lot #1?

Denise Denton stated, ours is the first one on the county road.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The Primary Approval Request for a 2-lot subdivision to be known as Wanda’s Acre located in Monon Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

Attorney Altman stated, it shall be granted upon the result, received of the additional conditions as required by the Commissioners subject to completion of the plat showing buildings, access to lot #1 off of County Road 500 and power utilities need to be on the plat.

Director Weaver asked, the buildings need to be shown…

Attorney Altman stated, that building.

Director Weaver asked, on the secondary plat?

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Jay Clawson stated, yes.

Joey Stiltz asked, is this someone that we had to this drawing?

Denise Denton stated, yes, the surveyor.

Director Weaver stated, Milligan, Jim Milligan did it for you.

Joey Stiltz asked, so, we need to have him redo it then?

Director Weaver stated, actually, I will contact him. We will have to have you come back in though and sign the plat.

Denise Denton stated, okay.

Attorney Altman asked, do you want to go ahead and approve secondary subject to the same conditions?

President Anderson asked, do you want to go ahead and approve the secondary?

Attorney Altman asked, subject to the same conditions?

Don Ward stated, yes, subject to the primary, subject to the conditions of the primary.

Attorney Altman stated, there aren’t any improvements to be installed and it’s a 2-lot subdivision.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Wanda’s Acre located in Monon Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

Attorney Altman stated, subject to the conditions as established on the primary ballot being approve and properly noted on the plat.

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#260 Lowell, Donald & Glen Stockment, Owners; Robert Wrede, Applicant; Requesting secondary approval of a 10 lot subdivision to be known as Ten High Acres – Part 2 on 10.000 Acres. The property is located in Honey Creek Township on the Northwest corner of C.R. 225 N. and C.R. 300 E.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing this request?

Bob Wrede was present to represent this request.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions about this request?

Director Weaver stated, they do have drainage approval, there is not a copy of it at this time in the folder because, I was not able to get a copy of it today but, I have verified that they do have drainage approval. To the best of my knowledge, it does meet all of the standards of the subdivision. The one question that I did have, are there any improvement to be put in other than drainage?

Bob Wrede stated, no.

Director Weaver asked, is there anything that we need a letter of credit on?

Bob Wrede stated, well there’s the drainage, we have to build the drainage plan that was submitted and permitted. I don’t know what the new County Inspector, the way that I understand it is, the Certificate of Occupancy is not going to be issued until the drainage is complete. Do you still need the bond on top of the leverage of having because, you can’t sell any lots in essence until, you can sell a lot but, the property can’t be occupied. It seems like a double dip to me to say that they can’t occupy the house therefore the drainage plan if it’s not complete you can’t sell any lots except for the first one. Do you see what I’m saying, until it’s done. So now, we’re going to get a bond and then we’re also going to say that the Certificate of Occupancy is based upon the drainage plan being completed? You have enough leverage with the certificate of occupancy on the house with the new Area Plan Inspector without the bond.

Attorney Altman stated, our Ordinance requires them. If you complete the, the way to avoid the need for that expense is to put the improvement in.

Bob Wrede stated, I agree with that and that’s what we’re doing now but it’s still a point that it doesn’t make sense and it does. I as the developer can sell the lots and I can sell 3 lots before a house is built and before the Certificate of Occupancy. I can have some money and still not do it so, I understand that there is a safeguard there but, it just seems like the scenario is getting steeper and steeper to develop in White County. It’s getting to be a concern but, I understand the Certificate that is an irrevocable letter surface as the bond correct, for the amount?

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Director Weaver stated, we need an estimate.

Attorney Altman stated, we need an engineer’s estimate.

Bob Wrede asked, am I an independent contractor enough, that my estimate will qualify? Do I have to go to one of my competitors and get an estimate of what it’s going to cost to put my drainage plan in?

Attorney Altman stated, I think that probably you can go to a County Engineer to get that approved or the County Surveyor will be able to review your…

Rick Raderstorf stated, I would have to ask him for it, I don’t have a clue.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions?

Don Ward stated, I really think that you need to get someone in the business to give you an estimate, a Registered Engineer or a Registered Surveyor or someone that is an expert in this field that can give an estimate. It probably wouldn’t take them very long.

Bob Wrede asked, in this area, of things if I have it built and inspected and approved prior to selling the first lots is it still necessary to get the bond?

Attorney Altman stated, no.

Bob Wrede asked, what is the bond contingent upon? Is it contingent upon this approval tonight?

Attorney Altman stated, the bond is required if you are going to record the plat before you put the improvements in.

Bob Wrede asked, so, if I have the improvements built prior to recording then I don’t record until I sell the first lot?

Attorney Altman stated, then, you don’t need a letter of credit.

Bob Wrede asked, so, if I have it built, inspected and approved prior to recording the plat even though the approval process is complete to the Commissioners, then I’m still okay?

Attorney Altman stated, that’s right as long as all of that is in. In other words, if you would walk in today and say that it is all in and certified and all and we approved it you could record your plat. So, we’re saying that the converse of that is if it’s approved today, subject to putting those in as required by the Drainage Board and you don’t record the plat before that, you don’t need a letter of credit.

Bob Wrede stated, very good, I understand.

Ron Pollock asked, so this is subject to the Drainage Board?

Jay Clawson stated, it already has drainage.

Don Ward stated, it’s all approved

Attorney Altman stated, I would certainly put the improvements in, I think that this one, you just approve it because, what we’re talking about is just things that have to be done.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Ten High Acres located in Honey Creek Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

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#262 Ralph McClurg; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Zachary Heights Subdivision on 6.835 Acres. The property is located in Prairie Township, on the South side of C.R. 800 S. and the East side of C.R. 125 E.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing this request? This one will be tabled until the next meeting then.

President Anderson stated, next on the agenda is business. Do we have any business?

Director Weaver asked, do you have anything that you want to address to the Board?

Mike Dotson stated, I live next to the property of the McClurgs and I just had some questions, how many units that they are going to put in there, how this would effect the drainage on my property just…

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing that I can say is since it’s been tabled it will be deferred to the next regular meeting and that is when Director Weaver?

Director Weaver stated, 2nd Monday.

President Anderson asked, what is that zoned?

Director Weaver stated, agricultural.

President Anderson stated, he can only have….

Director Weaver stated, he can only have single family residence.

President Anderson stated, on each lot…

Director Weaver stated, he is requesting 2 lots.

President Anderson stated, unless they come back and want to subdivide each of those lots, acres in a subdivision.

Mike Dotson stated, I just know when it rains it all comes across our driveway and into our pasture and I’m just concerned about that.

Attorney Altman stated, we can’t hear the merits on that.

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Don Ward asked, on this Stockment rezoning of that 10 lots on that all along the highway. Is there a way that we can pass an Ordinance to get the Commissioners approval to, when they have a certain number of lots along the road like that, that we can require that they build their own road off of the county road? So that they bring it out, in one place instead of 10 driveways.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that would be a wonderful idea.

Don Ward stated, that’s already got the driveways along the South side….

Jay Clawson stated, the only thing that I see good about that it’s a secondary road but, when you’re starting to get on Range Line Road, Airport Road or Springboro Road or whatever they call it further South. Roads that are main arterial roads where high traffic, Don is exactly right whenever there is a subdivision the should be made to have a couple points of ingress and egress instead of people backing out on to these roads. I can see over the next expansion with Lafayette coming this way, high traffic areas that’s going to snarl traffic horrible. People trying to back in and out and it’s much higher speed than what is posted out there if you go on any of those roads there, they are not driving 45 they are driving 60 to 65.

Director Weaver stated, the only concern that I have with that is our Subdivision Ordinance says that you can’t have double frontage lots.

Jay Clawson asked, what does that mean?

Director Weaver stated, you can’t have a road in the front and a road in the back.

Jay Clawson stated, I don’t mean in the back.

David Rosenbarger stated, that’s what you would have to do in order to do that you would have to face the houses North.

Director Weaver stated, right like Bob Wrede’s subdivision that’s what we would have to do….

Don Ward stated, no, put the road next to the road, put a 20’ strip in there or something and they still face the same direction.

Jay Clawson stated, set them back farther, he has an acre lot, set them back a little bit.

Don Ward stated, it’s not so bad right now but, think in 20 or 30 years in the future.

Director Weaver asked, would we want that to be the same width as a platted road or would we treat it like an access.

Don Ward stated, it wouldn’t, actually, if the county is going to maintain it it would have to be 40’.

Director Weaver stated, the Ordinance requires 50’.

Don Ward stated, they can leave it a private road if they want to but, that is not going to work very well it has to be a street.

Attorney Altman stated, Cass County has done something and I’m not sure, I’m trying to find out what it is but, they have limited the number of the population along roads like that the numbers that can be there. I haven’t had a chance to talk to you about this Director Weaver but, they have made an adjustment…

Director Weaver asked, the number of drives, is that what you’re saying?

Attorney Altman stated, I think that is what they have done so that it does minimize some of that.

Don Ward stated, there is a lot of that because it’s cheap, they don’t have to build a road and it’s real nice except for it screws up the road…

Attorney Altman stated, it sure does and it kills people.

Jay Clawson stated, and drainage, the ditches, once you start getting 15 different culverts along the road two guys smash the ends of theirs down and then the ditch doesn’t drain any more. Per quarter mile, there can only be 3 road cuts, would be something, I’m not saying that should be the law but, there needs to be some kind of formula that you can say when you’re developing that there can only be so many road cuts per…

Rick Raderstorf stated, you can have farm entrances or home entrances you would have to limit it because, they have farm entrances too. So, if you count entrances you would have to count and obviously, they are not going to be used like a residential entrance but, you’re still going to have them there.

David Rosenbarger stated, farmhouses might have 2 or 3 entrances.

Rick Raderstorf stated, yes.

Jay Clawson stated, most of that is for subdivision when someone subdivides it on frontage road it can be a formula in your requirements that in any subdivision you can only have so many entrances off of per 1,000’ or what ever.

Gary Barbour stated, off of a County Road or a State Highway…

Jay Clawson stated, right to make it so that they start developing….

Gary Barbour stated, unless, it’s a contained access…

Jay Clawson asked, access road, that’s like the one that we did a Brookston. Now that it’s all built up there I can foresee that being problems especially in the winter with people pulling in and out of all of those, he’s from Brookston, what do the people from Brookston feel about that? Not much?

David Rosenbarger stated, not much but, they don’t like it.

Jay Clawson stated, but, if you sell another 40 houses go up there, where they were all entering in…

David Rosenbarger stated, they are putting up the last house right now.

Jay Clawson stated, that could have been easily accessed off of the…

Attorney Altman stated, county road…

Jay Clawson stated, yes, the secondary road, what is that 100 East…

David Rosenbarger stated, then you got into the same thing, a road on the front and the back of the house, you can’t do that right?

Director Weaver stated, the Ordinance says that you can’t, we have approved them, Sycamore Estates has them but, we require…

David Rosenbarger stated, I can see your point there then you do it that way then the highway gets to look at the back of all of these houses.

Jay Clawson stated, but, you see Lafayette, they have done it countless subdivisions have the backs facing arterial roads…

Don Ward stated, it’s fairly frequent too.

Jay Clawson stated, yes, but, they are not ingress and egress and every house on the main road. If they don’t have access to that road that it’s using it as a frontage, calling it a frontage to where you can have, I can see it would be good to have access on both of those road when your designing it people would be driving through your…

Gary Barbour stated, carport…

Jay Clawson stated, yes.

President Anderson asked, you have something?

Director Weaver stated, just a couple of things that I want to follow up, first, some things that we had mentioned last month we had a violation with Indiana Beach allowing Poncies to park boats on their property on Washington Street. We had Gutweins up in Monon using a residential lot for parking for the business use and I had turned these matters over to Attorney Altman so, I was just curious where these stood.

Attorney Altman stated, I have contacted both of them to take them off the violations, how to do it without litigation.

Director Weaver stated, because, I have not seen any progress.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree.

Director Weaver stated, these have been repeated problem areas and that’s why I turned them directly over to Attorney Altman. We have sent out numerous letters to them to quit this use in the past, they would quit for a while, and then they would start up again. I don’t feel like it would do me much good to pursue this and that’s why I gave it to Attorney Altman. Next thing that I have, I have a budget form in my office is there anything that anyone wants, need to add, change anything for our budget for next year.

Don Ward stated, I think that it’s time to really talk to Steve Brooke about upgrading what we get out here in subdivision for roads. He is unhappy with it, it’s not good….

Jay Clawson asked, even chip and seal is not sufficient enough?

Don Ward stated, it’s not enough and they are poorly engineered I think that we need to require that when a subdivision is done with streets in it that there be a planted profile for the street, cross sections so that we know what is going on. That’s no more than you do out here in the county and it’s not that expensive and you get a better job actually. I talked to the, like Steve and Doug here in the town where they get black top a foot deep because, they don’t get their grades right. So they spend, they probably spend the same amount of money just don’t do as good of a job. We set up in the Ordinance where we require the sub-grade, be staked and during construction and get the stuff done right for a change and we also need to look into curbs and gutters on all of them. Go out here to Timberline Lane, or wherever it is out here in these subdivision, they are nice homes and yet they don’t have any curbs or gutters and they really should have. If you go down even the national homes addition and take a look at it, it was done better by far, cheaper homes than some of these with expensive home, somehow we should be able to get curbs and gutter…

Jay Clawson stated, we just, the City of Monticello hired an engineering company draw us p a set of specifications that each developer that comes in town if they want to do any work in Monticello, this is what it is, it’s water, sewer, streets everything. Everything is written what we want done because, the county does not have it comprehensive enough…

Don Ward stated, no, it doesn’t theirs is really slim.

Jay Clawson stated, it says in our books, for years when I first came on, it says all roads are going to be black topped. It doesn’t say that subdivisions are all chip and seal and the thing is what I’m finding in a lot of these subdivision going out and doing repair work is they put these roads in there and by the time that they are done with construction these roads are nothing…

Don Ward stated, that’s right…

Jay Clawson stated, now we as tax payers, have to keep maintaining these things, they are not, if they put in a good black topped road, had a good base under it and are good approved roads it’s not a detriment to the taxpayers to take this subdivision in here. Here is developers like Bob, I’m going sell of 10, well what development cost does he have other than coming here to two meetings to Area Plan, have Milligan stake out 10 lots and put in a little bit of drainage. Then look at what they make off of ground that is 1,000 dollar an acre ground if that much with it being sandy in those parts but, there has to be a little bit of cost to develop…

Don Ward stated, it’s worth more, the guy is going to pay more if he is going to get a good street, curb and gutter, it’s worth more when he sells it because, it’s going to be more valuable.

Jay Clawson stated, we get it all of the time in the City, the places that they didn’t put sidewalks and they want them now. The places are all sold and the people have families, and it’s “when are you guys going to put curbs and stuff”, the developer should have done that.

Don Ward stated, that’s right.

Jay Clawson stated, that’s one of the things that you look for in a subdivision when you buy, are those things there.

Don Ward stated, even out in the county you have a big subdivision you really should have curb and gutter because, it’s a small town to start with, they should have things done right. Have it done right and if we had some engineering done on it the way that it should be instead of giving us a topographical map of two nice lines drawn on it for a road we would know whether we’re getting our monies worth or whether they are going to get their landowners their monies worth. Whether, you have to know whether or not you can keep you utilities inside of the street or like down at Brookston when they got outside of the right-of-way and we’re putting the utilities in the lawns. Those are the things that we need to know they have just gone as far as we will let them go. Wherever we have drawn the line they will go that far and that’s as far as they will go so, I think that we need to draw our lines a little tighter. It’s not going to cost that much more money if you do it right.

Director Weaver stated, I think that we need to have some kind of an inspection, someway of having the stuff inspected because there is a big burden put on myself and Attorney Altman to make sure that we can release these letters of credit that everything is in. We don’t have the knowledge or the ability….

Don Ward stated, some of that stuff we require that and then the engineer is going to be liable for it, if he doesn’t see to it…

Director Weaver stated, that’s what we have been doing is requiring a letter from an engineer stating that they are satisfactory.

Don Ward stated, that right, make him liable.

Director Weaver stated, but, we did that with this one up on Fisher Street that Jay is saying that there is still a problem in so…

Don Ward asked, who is the engineer?

Don Ward stated, Paul Coutes.

Jay Clawson stated, they put their little ponds in but, they never put the tile, I don’t know if it’s actually drainage to sufficient but, it’s doing better than I thought. I went back there after the big goose drounder the other day and I figured that those apartments would all be wet. It was muddy everywhere but, there was not tons of surface water standing so it’s somewhat better but, I didn’t actually walk back into check those ponds to make sure that they are drainage out instead of actually holding because they are not actually designed to hold water permanently.

Rick Raderstorf stated, I think that back one might be.

Jay Clawson asked, is it?

Rick Raderstorf stated, I could check but, I think that it might be.

Director Weaver stated, we definitely need to come up with a better…

Rick Raderstorf stated, see the Drainage Board did, sometime earlier this year they imposed, now when a subdivision, drainage permit or when they turn in a drainage plan they charge them, they have to submit 1,000 dollars for review view and then another 1,000 dollars for inspections because, of what you have there. See once we approved it, there was no money for any inspections or anything. So now, they are charging another 1,000 dollars for a couple inspections during the construction but, that one, I know that we sent them a letter here a while back and they sent us a schedule of completion on that Fisher Street. When they gave it to us it was about 3 or 4 weeks ago right when it started raining so I know they’re not, I don’t remember what their letter exactly said but, they gave us a schedule but, I don’t know what it said.

Jay Clawson stated, another thing on subdivisions that we have done, like in these same people that they develop it and then they don’t maintain it. It’s becoming a real, I don’t know if that’s going to have to be something that we evade the property though the City or if there is something that can be gotten through Area Plan. With real high weeds like horse weeds and stuff growing up in a lot of these subdivisions and vacant lots where they are not keeping them mowed and they are actually not finished grade on these. A lot of them, they just half way developed it and just left great big mounds of dirt and it just needs to be spruced up the big rocks picked up. Get it where they can if they are not going to sell them right away and develop them they need to look half way decent.

David Rosenbarger stated, Brookston does have a nuisance Ordinance on weeds…

Jay Clawson stated, I think that we have on too.

Don Ward stated, we can come up with a deal that says that they must do their finished grading and they are not done and they don’t get their bond money until that is all done.

Jay Clawson stated, that maybe something that we can look at but, no one knows what they are doing where they get done they should put some kind of halfway finished grade to each lot at least make it so that it can be…

Don Ward stated, and leave it mobile.

Jay Clawson stated, some of these out in the country a lot of them will sow some kind of alfalfa in them and they will let guys bail hay off of it until they sell the lots…

Rick Raderstorf stated, but, that looks nicer than…

Jay Clawson stated, yes, and a lot of times it does look halfway decent and then instead of paying someone big bucks to mow it someone is getting cuttings of hay off of good ground. It gives ground cover so that it doesn’t erode because that’s what I see a lot of over there. They have so much dirt laying there when it started raining a lot of it they had, the improvements that they put for their drainage is going to all full of mud. That’s what happened on the tile out here, that they put in behind the medical arts center I hear that it’s about half full of…

Rick Raderstorf stated, it was, that was because of the end of it gave away.

Jay Clawson stated, sucked in a bunch of sand.

President Anderson stated, there are some manor things here that we want to work on, ingress and egress on county roads…

Jay Clawson stated, and Attorney Altman hit it about right when he said that if we could see what other counties are doing in theirs and kind of look at what they are doing and see what we can do…

Attorney Altman stated, I’m trying to think of who told me Cass County did that and I can’t, but, we can give them a call and check and see what they have done or at least get a copy of their Ordinance…

Jay Clawson asked, is Tippecanoe County very receptive about sharing their ideas of stuff that they do?

Director Weaver stated, I have a copy of their Zoning Ordinance in my office now, I don’t know about the subdivision but, I have not had any problem getting anything from them.

Jay Clawson stated, just to read through it and just see what ideas that they have because, they seem to be pretty progressive on things that they do or try to for as much growth as they have had over the last 20 years.

Don Ward asked, what about the subdivision down here on Gordon Road? How are they coming along?

Jay Clawson asked, their first phase they have all of their roads, curbs and stuff in but, that is one of the ones that I said that they need to finish grading it so it can be mowed or whatever…

Attorney Altman stated, it sure does…

Jay Clawson stated, it looks bad and if he’s wanting to sell lots it would improve the whole aspect of being able, to make it more sellable. If they spruced it up because, I had neighbors from across the way up Gordon Road that has called me and aren’t too happy about it. I guess that we will just, doing that on future subdivisions we just need something needs to be noted or get something in our book that the lot will be finished and seeded.

Don Ward stated, I don’t think that it’s that big of an expense…

Jay Clawson stated, it’s not and the thing is, they have a bunch of big rocks that they dug up when they were doing their sewers. They pushed all of that stuff and there’s 10 pieces of 6” pipe that is cut off that should just be hauled to some storage lot somewhere if they are planning on using it or just disposing of it to get rid of it. He said well, my lots aren’t selling as fast as I thought and I though well, you need to spruce it up and make it sell.

President Anderson asked, how about the roads in their subdivision, how are we going to set up standards for that?

Don Ward stated, that’s something that we need to talk about.

President Anderson asked, that’s what I’m saying, is it in the book the way that it should be?

Don Ward stated, maybe we can’t require curbs and gutters but we need to especially in the City of Monticello. We need curbs and gutters and even in towns but, out in the country if a subdivision is a certain size or it gets over a certain number of lots it probably, they should be forced to curbs and gutters because you’re really putting it in a town. Just like it has at Brookston, put in 2 or 3 homes and then all of a sudden boom, over by Rensselaer it’s right down the road, one right after another.

President Anderson asked, if we get a subdivision that comes in the next time what do we want to do about the roads on that?

Don Ward stated, we can’t until we back an Ordinance, get it approved and official and everything.

Jay Clawson stated, well, when the County Highway Director tells them well, we’ll take these roads why are they saying, that we need to sit there and go is that exactly what you want. He needs to look at this and say, are those the roads that you want. We have a book here that says they need to be built like this.

Director Weaver stated, what he wants is not what we have in our book…

Jay Clawson asked, I want a thing that is on paper, so when these people come in and if they are not done, if someone like Dave goes and inspects that one, we have an inspector and they do a poor job and they find out that there is 2” of gravel and 1” of blacktop and they say that it is a done road, we’re not going to accept that road. Or, if it’s a chip and seal, if they inspect it and find out that it wasn’t chip and sealed right, you can go back and say well, the guy can do a terrible job and say well, there it is, here’s our road. Unless there is something set down that is some kind of specification they can put down about anything that they want, am I not wrong?

Don Ward stated, that’s right, there is no one to watch them. It’s pretty tough to do if you don’t have your own inspector….

Director Weaver stated, evidentially that’s what they found out with the drainage.

There was discussion among the Board members.

David Rosenbarger asked, is this something that we need to work more with Steve on?

Don Ward stated, yes.

David Rosenbarger stated, writing up something that he has…

Director Weaver stated, not only Steve though but, we need to work with the towns as well because the City might have something completely than the county does.

David Rosenbarger stated, I don’t know about Monticello but, Brookston has it’s own Subdivision Ordinance book…

Director Weaver stated, see the problems with the towns is the towns don’t let us know about that to where maybe we can help, let the people know that up front. We need to work more closely with the towns when they adopt Ordinances like this.

Don Ward asked, can we have each town adopt what we do?

David Rosenbarger stated, we can have something and ask them if they want to adopt it.

Director Weaver stated, the thing is, I have sent letters to the towns when we work on amendments. I have sent letters to the towns before asking for their input asking for them to attend the meetings, we get no feed back from them until they go to the town Board and then they are like well, we don’t want this. So I don’t know what we can do different on this, we need to try something because what I have isn’t working.

Don Ward stated, I think that Steve would probably go along with the map, he would want say at least 6” of compacted ag and 2” of bituminous or 8” and 2” would probably be better. The best at least have 6” and 3” but, that gets expensive you can’t drive them clear out of business.

Jay Clawson stated, but, in this little diagram here, it shows two different roads. It shows one with curbs and then it shows another one with just a swale. If you get something like that where he would actually sign off you don’t need anything. Then you can say this is the minimum standard for White County and then you can put your little exceptions that Brookston has. Their requirements or Monticello has different requirements if everyone else does that but, it should be noted, so noted that when anyone gets this and anyone that never comes in to do a subdivision should know automatically.

David Rosenbarger stated, which the Town is going to be the minimum, most of your towns, if they are going to accept it, they are going to accept it, the county or make it more stringent.

Jay Clawson stated, yes, these would be the minimum requirements for a road.

President Anderson asked, do we need to set up a committee to do that?

Don Ward stated, probably, yes.

Director Weaver stated, it kind of sounds like it.

President Anderson asked, do you want to do that now? Do you want to think about it?

Attorney Altman stated, do it now.

Don Ward stated, I suppose that we should do it. Jay Clawson needs to be on it, Rick Raderstorf probably needs to be on it, anyone else that wants to do it.

Jay Clawson stated, we should have an engineer on here too.

President Thompson asked, who all has volunteered?

Attorney Altman stated, I have seen 4 people volunteer.

The 4 Board members on this committee are Jay Clawson, Don Ward, David Rosenbarger and Rick Raderstorf.

****

Jay Clawson made a motion to adjourn.

David Rosenbarger seconded the motion.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission