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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, July 9, 2001, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioner’s Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, Ron Pollock, Stephen Fisher, Don Ward and Gregory Bossaer. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: D.L. Flora, Robert L. Kelly, Lewis Hites, Carol Hendress, Eleanor Williams, Bill Williams, Elisabeth Nelson, Charlie & Cheryl VanVoorst, James Dowden and Fred and Shirley Boessel.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Jay Clawson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of June 11, 2001. Motion was seconded by Ron Pollock and carried unanimously.


#755 David L. Flora; Requesting to rezone from B-2 to I-1 on 17.00 Acres. The property is located in Big Creek Township at 5372 S. State Road 43. This has been referred back to the Area Plan Commission by the County Commissioners to review and approve the commitments to be attached to this rezoning.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing this request?

David Flora stated, I’m from Chalmers. I would like to have a piece of ground, of course I own there across from Chalmers and I want zoned for industrial use, they tell us that it needs to be zoned industrial. I had some papers blow on us and we have to repair the fence for that to stop, that’s what our intentions are, a 4’ wood snow fence, there is a gap in between. To put a snow fence up where it’s close to the, and about another 4” between the other board and that snow fence, I want two barbs on top of it. I think that would be better than the other type of fence and we can do that without too much expense we already have the snow fence for it

President Anderson stated, we have a written commitment here.

Attorney Altman stated, that was to construct a chain link fence 6’ tall along the entire North end and South boundaries of the real estate. Along the line that was 80’ West, of the entire East boundary of the above said real estate and excluding the part that is in front of his home or

veterinary office and clinic situation. The real estate, that was the commitment and that’s what I understood that the Board had talked about in the last meeting. That they wanted to control the paper that Dr. Flora is talking about. Of course, we were concerned about, we drafted that up and Dr. Flora signed the commitment. Now, the Commissioners have sent it back to us to look it over and I guess to consider the proposal about the fence being different like Dr. Flora has just related to us and it’s for the Board to decide.

President Anderson asked, so, the two barbs on top of it, will it be two, barbwire links on top of it or is it…

David Flora stated, it will be about 2” to 3” apart, it will be two barbwires.

President Anderson asked, so, how far will that bring the fence up then?

David Flora stated, about 6’.

President Anderson stated, about 6’.

David Flora stated, I thought that would be better than any other type that I could put up.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions about this request?

Jay Clawson stated, I don’t think that a snow fence would be an adequate boundary. You might stick it out in front, I mean after he puts his chain link, to put it out in front before it gets in there but, we’re asking for the property to be properly fenced.

David Flora stated, that we will do, I ordered contractors to do that.

Jay Clawson asked, what the chain link fence?

David Flora stated, no, to put up a regular fence along the road.

President Anderson stated, the fence that he is talking about is…

Jay Clawson stated, we had written that commitment up when you come in here. We made the proposal to you that, you’re going to do it with a chain link fence. Now, you decided, you signed this commitment that you were going to do it in chain link. Then you change your mind that you would go with regular snow fence, that would probably have the life expectancy of about 2 or 3 years, if you got it set up there.

David Flora stated, I don’t object to move that chain link fence, I just thought that this would be easier.

Jay Clawson stated, well, it would be a lot less expense but, the thing is, that’s what everyone wants, we ask for certain things, for the proper classification and then they want us to back off and go with the least expensive route.

David Flora stated, I’m not doing that to avoid it, we will have to put up a chain link fence if that’s what you are going to require.

Jay Clawson stated, the things that we asked, that are in our minutes from that meeting, are pretty much in his commitment. The things that I noticed seemed to be in there for the most part.

Attorney Altman stated, again, I do not have the minutes actually right here in front of me but, I tried to paraphrase them from looking at them Jay, as to what the Board, the proposal was chain link fence 6’ tall.

President Anderson asked, also, John Raines wanted that too, didn’t he?

Director Weaver stated, that’s right.

Jay Clawson stated, our Environmental Officer.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, so that’s why I put that in that way wasn’t because of anything that I thought personally.

Jay Clawson asked, do the Commissioners have any reservations, when they sent this back or did they just want us to review it?

Director Weaver stated, I think that the Commissioners returned it back to you because, they wanted to know that this commitment was exactly what you were wanting enforced.

Attorney Altman stated, because, I had prepared it after the meeting and you really had not seen it to consider it until today.

Jay Clawson stated, yes, this seems to be just what we asked for, I’m not sure everything to the tee was there but I think that, pretty much, it was there.

President Anderson asked, do any other Commissioners have any questions?

Don Ward asked, did we specify a height?

Attorney Altman stated, I thought that you said 6’ tall.

President Anderson stated, we have a restriction on that.

Director Weaver stated, maximum height is 8’ for a fence but the best that I recall we wanted a 6’. Also, if we had, under our residential protection, it requires at least 8’ in height. This isn’t up against residential but we would require at least 8’.

Steve Fisher asked, the other thing it says that, “in the event legal proceedings are initiated in order to enforce this written agreement, then the parties prevailing in such a litigation shall be entitled to a recovery of their reasonable attorney fees incurred.” That says, if they prevail, what if you get to the point where all of a sudden, you were to mediate something or there isn’t someone prevailing? You have initiated and say that okay you need to do this, this and this. What if I do this and who is going to pay the attorney fees in that case because, no one is necessarily prevailing?

Attorney Altman stated, you mediate who prevails or no one gets them. In other words, sometimes I have been in them when you mediate who is going to prevail. Usually, what that amounts to, attorney fees are going to be so much so, you settle the one side is going to pay such a percentage and the other side is paying the other percentage.

President Anderson stated, I guess that we, as a Board, decide whether we want to stick with the original commitment or will consider amending the commitment that we have.

David Rosenbarger stated, I would think that the snow fence would be an eyesore.

President Anderson stated, he’s probably talking the wood slat snow fence, I suppose what it would be on that. All of those in favor of leaving the commitment the way that it is, let's have a show of hands from the Board. No one opposed. The Board wants to leave your commitment the way that it is with the chain link fence. So do we have to…

Attorney Altman stated, that’s all.

Director Weaver stated, just your approval and then I will then take it back to the County Commissioners at their next meeting.

Attorney Altman asked, so this will be submitted to the County Commissioners at the next regular meeting and that will be when Director Weaver?

Director Weaver stated, next Monday.

Attorney Altman stated, next Monday morning at 8:30 in the morning and they will approve or disapprove at that time.

Director Weaver stated, if this is approved I just want you to be aware that a fence does require a permit so, you will have to receive a permit.


#757 William & Sharon Krintz; Requesting to rezone from R-2 to R-3 on 1.752 Acres. The property is located in Honey Creek Township at 1125 W. 300 N. This is being presented to the Area Plan Commission to review and approve the commitments to be attached to this rezoning.

President Anderson asked, this is another one that we have a commitment on. Do we have someone here representing that request?

Director Weaver stated, this one I brought back to the Board, I was afraid that if I went to the County Commissioners that they would send it right back. So, I’m trying to prevent that from happening.

Steve Fisher stated, they don’t need to be here anyway.

Director Weaver stated, that was my feeling that they agreed to this, I didn’t really tell them that they needed to be here.

President Anderson asked, all in favor of approving this commitment, I say raise your right hand. So moved.


#759 Robert L. Kelly, Inc.; Requesting to rezone from A-1 to I-2 on 7.626 Acres. The property is located in the Town of Reynolds and in Honey Creek Township, West of 366 E. U.S. Highway 24.

President Anderson asked, do we have someone here representing this request?

Robert Kelly was present to represent this request.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions for Mr. Kelly?

Director Weaver stated, I would like to clear something up before we get started. I have been asked by several people how this was re-filed so soon. Our Ordinance does not address, if an item is dismissed by the Board it does not specify that they have a waiting period before they can re-file a request and that’s why it has reappeared so soon on our agenda.

Steve Fisher asked, it used to be 6 months didn’t it?

Director Weaver stated, not for a dismissed item that I’m aware of. I know that in our Ordinance it says that if it’s withdrawn there is a 6-month waiting period but, the Board dismissed this.

President Anderson stated, it’s been several meetings ago and we have asked for a written commitment on this one too. We wanted a buffer area put in that and the Board has not been presented anything, and the Area Plan has not been presented anything on the commitment for a buffer zone on the town wells and the property.

Robert Kelly stated, I didn’t know about that, I was in Florida when it happened but, the buffer zone, the 50’ buffer zone…

Attorney Altman stated, we asked for 100’.

President Anderson stated, we asked for 100’, is what we asked for.

Robert Kelly asked, what about 50’, can I get 50’? I will probably not ever use it anyway.

Don Ward stated, I think that with 100’…

President Anderson stated, that’s what we asked for.

Don Ward stated, that was required.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, it was required.

Don Ward stated, there is a section here that shows no buffer at all between the town park and the town wells and I thought that the buffer was suppose to go all of the way.

President Anderson stated, we wanted to bring the buffer all the way along the houses plus back in through the town well.

Robert Kelly stated, the town is there to, I own that through there but, I just want to go up to my line. I don’t need to...

President Anderson asked, who owns that property next to this?

Jay Clawson asked, Charlie do you own this strip here, to the West end?

Attorney Altman asked, Jay, would you share with us all, which strip that you just asked him and you’re referring to?

Jay Clawson stated, to the left, or it would be to the West of the…

Attorney Altman stated, there are two jogs to the end, on Mr. Kelly’s property. There is a long piece that has just a little bit of an “L” at the top, is that all Charlie’s?

Jay Clawson stated, I know that you don’t own all of this back here.

Robert Kelly stated, I own this up here, to here, over to here…

Attorney Altman stated, we’re talking on the other side.

Jay Clawson asked, we’re talking about this property, is this Charlie VanVoorst’s?

Robert Kelly stated, yes, this here goes into the town over here, there should be a line through here.

President Anderson stated, but that’s up on this as far as being rezoned too.

Robert Kelly asked, if I get a 50’ buffer zone in there, I think that would be good enough, what is another 50’?

Don Ward stated, it’s required, it has to be 100’.

Robert Kelly stated, okay.

Jay Clawson asked, that is a requirement of the Board and our Ordinance from any residential area, you have to have 100’ buffer. There is a residential development through here right? That is where Charlie has his new…

There was discussion among the Board and the applicant.

Don Ward asked, who owns the wide strip?

Jay Clawson stated, Charlie VanVoorst.

Don Ward asked, he owns that then, that little notch?

Jay Clawson stated, yes.

There was discussion among the Board and the applicant.

Director Weaver stated, the minutes from the last meeting, I think that is what Attorney Altman is looking for.

President Anderson stated, Kenny Kelly is the one that was here the last time that we were talking to.

Robert Kelly stated, I will probably not ever use it anyway.

Don Ward stated, that may be true but, we need a plat that shows us exactly your property and what you’re rezoning.

Jay Clawson stated, legal plat, or survey and that doesn’t do it.

Don Ward stated, you might as well show all of it…

Robert Kelly stated, I bought this part and then I bought this part here. Everything over here I want to, I don’t own up to the town

Don Ward stated, we need a good drawing, we don’t have a decent drawing of it.

Jay Clawson stated, Attorney Altman, do we need for him to have a survey to show exactly what everything is? What we have here is not…

Attorney Altman stated, I would suggest, yes.

Robert Kelly stated, this is really a survey here, to find a surveyor that can survey is pretty hard to do.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that a survey would be definitely in order given the fact that he hasn’t actually been able to convince Don Ward here who is a surveyor what the tract is that we’re involved in.

Don Ward stated, I think that we should have a good drawing of the dimensions.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, a good survey.

Jay Clawson stated, so we can see the buffer area that is on this property…

Attorney Altman stated, that’s right because, otherwise, you don’t know where it is.

Don Ward stated, so that we know what we’re doing. So that they show the town lines and that they show your property lines. So we know what buffer is out there and you do too, so they don’t come back on you…

Jay Clawson stated, it has to be either some kind of fence or some sort of plantings.

Don Ward asked, we were going to make it lawn remember?

Jay Clawson asked, is that what we were going to use?

Don Ward stated, your son agreed to make it a lawn.

Robert Kelly stated, no, that buffer we are going to leave it farm ground.

Don Ward stated, that’s alright too.

Attorney Altman stated, let's get the information about what we’re doing.

Charlie VanVoorst asked, if you go back to your minutes of what you guys talked about the first time, I don’t really know which time. He was to tell us what he was going to do with that property. You guys had talked about possibly letting him use 50’ off of that East side to stock pile stuff unless they could come up with some other idea or something in writing telling you what he was going to do with it. So, is that still in effect or did we change our minds or what are we doing there?

President Anderson stated, yes but, we finally came down with that we wanted a buffer zone between the property lines and keep things away from you. As far as us telling him exactly what he can put on there I don’t know if we can get involved with that.

Attorney Altman stated, well you can, on a commitment you can. It’s like just on Dr. Flora’s or Mr. Krintz’s we come down until we can get that specific yes, if we choose to do so.

President Anderson asked, would you like to speak to the audience and tell them exactly what you plan on doing?

Robert Kelly stated, I really don’t have anything planned on it right now, I just want to extend my zoning on over to my property so it’s all under one zoning.

President Anderson stated, the one thing that we did though, is we wanted a commitment saying that you weren’t going to move your asphalt plant over there.

Robert Kelly asked, for about 20,000 dollars would you move an asphalt plant 200’?

President Anderson asked, would you be willing to put that into a commitment?

Robert Kelly stated, oh, it will never be moved, yes, I will never move it.

Charlie VanVoorst asked, would that be in writing then?

Robert Kelly stated, it will never be moved.

Charlie VanVoorst asked, that will be in writing then, is that correct President Anderson?

President Anderson stated, it would be on a written commitment, if he will agree to it.

Robert Kelly stated, yes, it will never be moved because, I’m not going to spend 20,000 dollars to move it.

Jay Clawson stated, any plant of any kind.

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing that I’m saying is that we have a hard time keeping a record when we go back and forth like this. I think that I hear the applicant saying he would put that in a commitment that he would not move the asphalt plant in any way shape or form from where it is presently located. That would be a part of the commitment that we’re talking about here but, we still don’t go back, get your answer about a survey to start with and you require it.

Don Ward stated, some plats, some drawing that shows the dimensions I think that they don’t have to survey it, just take the legal description, draw it up and show us what is going on. In the commitment we don’t want any, I don’t think that we want any asphalt material or oil or anything else stored on that strip.

Attorney Altman stated, but we have to find out where the strip is.

Don Ward stated, right…

Attorney Altman stated, so 20 years from now someone can enforce it.

Don Ward stated, that 100’, so that he knows where it is too.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, and the neighbors do too.

President Anderson stated, we weren’t limiting to other materials like stone or things like that.

Don Ward stated, right, I thought that we limited it to no stock piling within 100’.

Jay Clawson stated, in that 100’ buffer zone, no.

President Anderson stated, in that buffer zone no, right, but, on the rest of it...

Robert Kelly stated, I don’t see…

Jay Clawson stated, plus, we’re subject to Indiana Code on anything with this new Well Head Protection Act they passed on Indiana.

Robert Kelly stated, I’m farther than it’s suppose to be, I’m farther over.

Director Weaver asked, what is that requirement.

Jay Clawson stated, that could change at any time, you may find certain requirements in 10 years what you can put on there.

Robert Kelly stated, I have to do the requirement on the plans, I have to change things.

Attorney Altman stated, let's get the plat first and you can understand that we’re strongly considering the 100’ buffer and the fact that on that buffer that nothing will be stock piled and that that plant is not to be moved at all. I understand that you’re saying that you’re not going to move the plant. I’m just again, trying to say it out loud, so that everyone is hearing at least the point that we are right now. That doesn’t put us in stone, that doesn’t put you in stone and you folks out there can still talk or ask for more or say that it’s fine but, at least everyone tonight knows what we’re talking about.

President Anderson stated, if we do this, we’re going to have to require him to bring that written commitment this next…

Attorney Altman stated, yes sir.

President Anderson stated, okay and set up a date when Spark will be here so that everyone can join too and you’ll make it.

Attorney Altman asked, that would be next meeting. What time will that be Director Weaver? What is the date on the next meeting?

An audience member asked, what will it be used for?

Attorney Altman stated, that is a good question.

Robert Kelly stated, you’re talking 100’…

Don Ward stated, the rest of it, you can stock pile as long as it obeys all of the other laws.

Attorney Altman stated, again, I don’t know for sure, you have to decide that.

Director Weaver stated, the meeting will be August the 6th.

Jay Clawson stated, the I-2 property the rest of your property what they want to know is what you’re planning on doing with it. You’re saying that you’re not going to use anything on the buffer zone, what they want to know is what you’re planning on using on the rest of your property.

Robert Kelly stated, I have no plans now…

Jay Clawson stated, at this time.

An audience member asked, then why are we rezoning?

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s a good question, he can propose it…

Charlie VanVoorst stated, in an I-2 you can put a junkyard in there, you can do what ever you want.

Attorney Altman stated, that will be August the 6th right here, it will be the first one on the agenda and it’s now tabled for that request.

President Anderson asked, do you have a problem with August the 6th. Do you want to go 2 months?

Robert Kelly stated, I think that I’m leaving the last of July and I will be gone for about a month.

President Anderson asked, when will you be back?

Robert Kelly stated, I don’t know.

Attorney Altman asked, the next meeting is when?

Robert Kelly stated, let me check…

Attorney Altman stated, we have to know now.

Director Weaver stated, it will be September the 4th.

Attorney Altman stated, September the 4th would be the next meeting.

An audience member stated, that will be 2 months.

Robert Kelly asked, August the 6th or September the 4th?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, we need to decide now on the record.

Robert Kelly stated, I want to go August the 6th but, something might happen, I don’t know when that is…

Director Weaver stated, it’s the first Monday of August.

President Anderson stated, it’s the same day of August, on a Monday.

Jay Clawson asked, should we even put this back on the agenda until he gets the commitment and the legal description back to us that way we will have everything. There is no reason to receive this until we have that in front of us right?

Attorney Altman stated, Jay, I hear you but except for I hate to not let these people know when this is going to go on the agenda. That’s the only real problem that I hear.

Jay Clawson stated, but, if we don’t have a commitment, then there is no reason to hear it.

Don Ward stated, we need to specify a commitment too because, I don’t think that he knows, what did we specify the last time, 100’ buffer, no stock piling.

President Anderson stated, and not moving the plant on the property, the asphalt plant on the property.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that you need to see the line before you decide, that’s the real thing I don’t think that it’s the chicken or the egg, that’s the answer.

President Anderson asked, then we can solve both of them at the same time because, we can make the commitment here can’t we?

Director Weaver stated, I need those 10 days prior to the meeting, minimum of 10 days prior to the meeting.

Robert Kelly asked, when?

Director Weaver stated, 10 days prior to the meeting.

Attorney Altman stated, then let's do September, that will give you some time Spark, to have things ready, these folks then know when it’s coming back and then we will also have a good chance of having everything ready.

Robert Kelly stated, okay, if I’m going in August….

Attorney Altman stated, let's do September…

Robert Kelly stated, September…

Attorney Altman stated, then we have time to do it, and do it right.

Robert Kelly stated, okay.

Attorney Altman asked, September what Director Weaver?

Director Weaver stated, September the 4th.

Attorney Altman stated, September the 4th.

Director Weaver stated, I believe, it’s a holiday, but, from looking at this, I think that’s right, it’s a Tuesday.

President Anderson stated, it would have to be the 10th.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, Director Weaver is confused, it will be September the 10th, right here.

An audience member asked, is that on Labor Day?

Director Weaver stated, no, it’s the second Monday of the month, I said the first a while ago, it’s the second Monday.

President Anderson stated, September the 10th.

An audience member asked, the 10th?

Director Weaver stated, yes.


#760 Lewis Hites III & Steven Stearns; Requesting to rezone from A-1 to I-2 on 1.21 Acres. The property is located on State Road 16, West of Buffalo and behind 5900 E. State Road 16.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here to represent this request?

Lewis Hites was present to represent this request.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions? I don’t see anyone here in the audience.

Jay Clawson stated, the real question that I had was with this being back behind the…

Lewis Hites stated, Crystal Clear.

Jay Clawson stated, yes, what kind of ingress and egress that you have. It’s not shown on here. Do you have actual property that you own or do you have an easement.

Lewis Hites stated, we have actual property that we own out to the road.

Jay Clawson asked, should that be shown?

Attorney Altman stated, it should.

Jay Clawson stated, most of the time, when we get these, they are right on the highway. Then you have, it shows your easement because, if you were to sell this property to someone else they would need a way, we’re not sure if we need to rezone that whole spot, the drive back needs to be zoned the same, is that in the legal description?

Cheryl Hites stated, the drive goes right next to Zieseniss.

Lewis Hites stated, between Zieseniss and Westfall’, 25’…

Cheryl Hites stated, yes, from the road back to the property.

Jay Clawson asked, is it big enough for an I-2?

Attorney Altman asked, how many feet?

Lewis Hites stated, I believe 25’…

Attorney Altman stated, it’s not on the description.

Director Weaver stated, it’s not provided with this legal description, there is no easement included on that.

Lewis Hites stated, okay then we will have to…

Attorney Altman stated, I think that you will want to get that before you want to do anything. What I’m saying is, I’m reading the deed that’s proposed, set out here and it doesn’t show ingress and egress. I don’t doubt that you have it…

Cheryl Hites stated, we bought it afterwards and we have it printed out, we bought it off of Zieseniss’s, the right-of-way back to the property.

Attorney Altman stated, they should really be, I agree with you Jay, it should be part of this proposal. I really think that you want to have it part…

President Anderson stated, Director Weaver doesn’t think that we have any of that written on how wide that has to be.

Attorney Altman stated, maybe not but…

Director Weaver stated, no requirement on it.

Attorney Altman stated, but, it needs to be part of it for this application.

Jay Clawson stated, yes, if they own the property that should be show and be part of what is going back to it.

Director Weaver stated, I agree and make sure that it’s big enough.

Lewis Hites asked, what is the legal width?

Director Weaver stated, on an easement we don’t have a requirement, it is not in the Ordinance, it will be up to the Board to make that decision.

Attorney Altman asked, is this an easement?

President Anderson stated, if you want to change it into the county then…

Lewis Hites asked, a drive, what is the difference in the description?

Attorney Altman stated, I would have to read the deed before I could tell you what it is.

Jay Clawson stated, an easement is something that you usually pay for a lane just to let you go across their land…

Lewis Hites stated, we bought it.

Jay Clawson stated, if you bought the land you should have been deeded that much property. You should have a legal description.

Director Weaver stated, if you do, you need to get that to us fairly quick because, we will have to re-advertise this. So, we will need to get it, as soon as you can get it to us, so that we can get it re-advertised.

Attorney Altman stated, generally that’s 40’ wide to get services in and out of there because, of fire and that sort of thing, it would be needed that kind of access to get back in.

Lewis Hites stated, it shows on the driveway, the pictures…

Attorney Altman stated, I know that it does…

Lewis Hites stated, the legal description…

Attorney Altman stated, but, that doesn’t, I have seen it on the other guys property before.

Lewis Hites stated, it’s the West and the East sides, both sides.

Cheryl Hites stated, it’s very well divided of whose is whose.

Attorney Altman stated, maybe you should make sure that you get it to Director Weaver and we get it re-advertised so that we have it well defined here and protect your rezoning. So that you don’t come up short some day and not have enough property defined and rezone.

Don Ward asked, what is the part to the North of it?

Lewis Hites stated, I-1.

Director Weaver stated, that is a rezoning that we just did this year.

Don Ward stated, that’s what I thought and now we’re asking for an I-2 on this.

Attorney Altman stated, so we have to decide that too but I think that you’re quite right Jay, that we need that.

Greg Bossaer asked, what if it’s not 40’. It doesn’t say that it has to be 40’?

President Anderson stated, that would be up to us.

Director Weaver stated, I was reading, I’m sorry.

Greg Bossaer stated, it doesn’t say that it has to be 40’.

Director Weaver stated, no.

Jay Clawson asked, this has already been subdivided at one time so that was something that when we looked at the subdivision, that’s where that is defined isn’t it? The width of road and if it’s a preexisting division of property, you really can’t make them do that at that time. It just needs to be on the plat, the legal description of what is being rezoned that way it’s all one thing instead of when you come to sell you’re back part is that and then the front part is a different zoning.

Director Weaver stated, but for an industrial use even if they have 15’ they may become a factor correct? When you consider a rezoning…

Jay Clawson stated, if you ever wanted to sell it to someone else it would probably be a big hindrance if someone wanted to come in there with semis because, they wouldn’t be able to get semis in a 15’ area but, for them it may be sufficient.

Director Weaver asked, are there trucks that go back on the property now?

Lewis Hites stated, yes, we have 2 or 3 trucks a month, go back there.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that you will want to spell that out really well Mr. Hites.

Lewis Hites asked, then bring it to you as soon as possible?

Director Weaver stated, as soon as possible so we can get it re-advertised.

Cheryl Hites asked, then it will come up before the next meeting?

Director Weaver stated, it will be at the next meeting, it will be the 13th of August.

President Anderson stated, so that one is tabled until the next meeting.

Don Ward asked, what about that roadway?

Jay Clawson stated, they bought it off of Zieseniss, it was sold off so it wouldn’t be in Zieseniss’s legal description.


#262 Ralph McClurg; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Zachary Heights Subdivision on 6.835 Acres. The property is located in Prairie Township, on the South side of C.R. 800 S. and the East side of C.R. 125 E.

President Anderson stated, this request has been tabled.


#263 Fred H. Jr. & Shirley Boessel; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Boessel Subdivision #2 on 1.861 Acres, known as Lot 1 of Boessel Subdivision. The property is located in Monon Township at 6464 N. Bedford Bay Court.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing this request?

Fred Boessel was present to represent this request.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here with any questions about this request?

Attorney Altman stated, I certainly do have. We had a special exception, that this lot #5 would be part of and at the special exception before the Board of Zoning Appeals. They were approved to have what they have on there and it was in view of a subdivision like we have before us. They had several restrictions that they are required to have and I think that they should be on the subdivision because otherwise, the special exception is not good and without a special exception the subdivision really is of no value at all to anyone, especially them. Their special exception said that there were 10 campers and this plat shows that there are 11.

Shirley Boessel stated, no, there is only 9.

Fred Boessel stated, there is 9.

Attorney Altman stated, it shows 11.

David Rosenbarger stated, oh, the campers that are in the floodway, I didn’t see them.

Attorney Altman stated, the one that is, the one that they did take off at the special exception meeting is the one that is, I’m trying to describe this. The Southeast most one, just right above the double lots on the 90 degree double lot, double lot and that one is the one that was not on there and it would be the one that given their special exception would have to go off of this plat. The other thing, they indicated that the two dwellings I observed dwellings were single family dwellings. Again, I think that is important, given all that is on these lots that it be noted and part of the conditions of the subdivision. That it be single family, only that the other two pieces of building and that’s the 10’ x 15’ and the one that is 26’ x 12’ x 12’ x 14’ x 12’ x 30’ is storage areas and that’s all. The next thing, this is no trouble, this is not new for Mr. Boessel but, I’m just putting it on the record because, he agreed to it all at the special exception. That would be all of these units obviously not the storage units but the inhabited units be hooked up to the sewage system.

Jay Clawson asked, do you have this document that we can attach to the subdivision?

Attorney Altman stated, it isn’t quite that simple to do that, no, I don’t have that and I called the surveyor and talked to him about getting it ready and I didn’t get a formal call back.

Director Weaver stated, actually, I have a plat in the office this morning, I have not looked at it, I was looking at it a minute ago. These restrictions are not on it, what it does is it refers to the variance but, they are not written on the plat itself.

Attorney Altman stated, the other thing is they agreed that there would be nothing built in the setback area to the East and that the campers in the flood fringe area would be removed. If they are destroyed in anyway so, it unloads the properties somewhat and keeps it only at this level is what it were really intended to do. Again I’m just paraphrasing somewhat but, it really just, it really doesn’t effect lot #4 much at all with the exception that obviously if it is destroyed, the home has to come within the setbacks but, that’s not really not addressed in the special exception. The special exception said nothing built in the setback area or nothing else built on the whole lot other than what is there already.

Don Ward asked, what was the reason that one was removed or was to be removed?

Attorney Altman stated, it was already at that time, as I understood.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, it wasn’t there.

Attorney Altman stated, it wasn’t there.

Don Ward stated, oh, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, and I think that it just amounts to Mr. Milligan got it, it was there but, it got removed so it’s not there now is what it really amounts to. So, it’s not there and the rest of it I’m just repeating what they said.

Steve Fisher asked, so there is 10 campers on the property?

Attorney Altman stated, 10 campers on it.

Shirley Boessel stated, where there is 4 of them I a row, he made a mistake on that and there’s only 3.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, the bottom one is gone and we have removed that and again Mrs. Boessel just trying to relate what we had at the special exception and which you folks agreed to so that these folks know that is a condition upon the approval of this subdivision.

Steve Fisher stated, you said one more thing, you said that nothing is going to be built in the setback lines of lot #5, ever, or did you say when this is cleared off then it can be.

Attorney Altman stated, I suppose, they didn’t quite propose it but, if they clear everything off then it’s a setback line then they don’t have a reason for a special exception, then they don’t have a special exception. If they took everything off of there then they don’t have a reason for a special exception.

Greg Bossaer asked, then, they come back in…

Attorney Altman stated, then they come back in and build on that. The other conditions are about hooking to sewage and that would be needed but, most of those would go bye, bye.

Fred Boessel stated, we’re committed to sewage.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, I understand that, you have agreed to all of this and I know that. I’m just telling this Board what you agreed to Mr. Boessel.

Fred Boessel stated, I’m not happy about it but we’re doing it.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess that I’m suggesting that if we approve this that this just be a requirement. That these requirements of the special exception be set out along the plat as part of conditions and that’s all so that we can go ahead and not hold them up but, get that on there before we’re approved.

Don Ward asked, we’re giving them primary approval right?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, I think that subject to them doing all of this I think that the standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met because of the special exception.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The Primary Approval Request for a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Boessel Subdivision located in Monon Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

Attorney Altman stated, the indication is that primary approval is granted on receipt of the conditional conditions as required by the Commission and those conditions be that the requirements of the special exception be set forth on the subdivision plat. I believe that I can distribute the secondary ballot.

Director Weaver stated, I have not had a chance yet to look at the secondary plat. If the Board wants to approve it contingent on the fact that I will make sure that…

Attorney Altman stated, they’re not on there now, I bet you.

Director Weaver stated, no, they are not. That’s what I was referring to, that I received this morning that’s why I have not had a chance to look at the secondary plat. We just received drainage approval late this afternoon so, I have not had time to review that plat so, I don’t know that the Board wants to go ahead and vote on that secondary. I can not tell you if everything is on there for approval.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

President Anderson asked, so not vote on it?

Attorney Altman stated, not vote on it. It sounds to me like it’s not ready.

Director Weaver stated, it doesn’t sound like it is to me either.


President Anderson asked, do we have any business? Do we have a report?

Don Ward stated, we didn’t have a meeting although, I have talked to Steve Brook, he does not, think that we had better change the county…

President Anderson stated, Ordinance…

Don Ward stated, very much we can but, the reason being that they can’t afford to keep up the hot mix…

President Anderson stated, they are going to chip and seal anyway…

Don Ward stated, so, I told him that a good hot mix should last 20 years. He said well the problem is, that they will have it torn up before they get the subdivision built and I will be stuck with a hot mix road and no way to fix it. That really isn’t true either and we haven’t really gotten, I need to get a hold of Doug Roberts too, I haven’t talked to him…

Attorney Altman stated, so what he is saying is if you get it you have to replace it for what you have and he’s real concerned about being able to afford that.

Don Ward stated, well the smart thing is, don’t accept it until it’s ready.

Jay Clawson stated, that’s what we did with the city, when they are done with the siding then, we had problems with the new addition right off of Fisher Street. They did core samples and it didn’t pass, some were thicker and some where thinner and I don’t think that it’s been accepted yet they may have to repave the whole thing.

Director Weaver stated, I almost feel like we need to set up inspections like in stages they need to have inspections done.

Don Ward stated, they need to be staked and he agrees that we do need grade stuff and that we need cross sections. We need to know what is going on, he agrees totally with that kind of stuff but, he just doesn’t want hot mixed roads. I think that it would take a good hot mix road will last the subdivision and once that subdivision is done it should last another year.

Attorney Altman asked, how much problem do we have if we get them to give a good road with base and not have any petroleum on there?

Don Ward asked, the stone.

Attorney Altman stated, for just stone and this problem is and Jay you may depend on what you think there for a certain amount of time and tell me, I’m not sure what it is and then require the hot mix or the road go on there. Surely that works somewhere…

Don Ward stated, we want to discuss this a lot more, I told him that we need a list or a map showing the roads where also where strip…

President Anderson stated, malls…

Don Ward stated, subdividing along the road needs to be stopped and he agrees with that. He knows better than anyone else does probably, the roads where it would be allowed, on the minor roads. The problem with minor roads are in the future, they may become major.

Jay Clawson stated, well, there are certain minor roads through traffic not so much traffic flow now but, proximity to certain areas that’s like 25 years ago Springboro Road was not really a major road but, is actually become one. Who would have thought that the road, it’s a Carroll County Road now but, a lot of people think that the cut off to Americus and how much the traffic, when I was a kid, you could ride your bike on that road daily. Now, it’s you probably have a couple hundred cars an hour or more.

Attorney Altman stated, and Range Line too out here, I mean yes people drove on it but not like they do now.

Don Ward stated, Range Line Road is like the State Road 43 use to be and it’s become a major road.

Director Weaver stated, I know something else that Steve has mentioned to me that he has concerns about too is the setbacks off of the country roads. If they are zoned R-2 they can go as close as 32’ to that county road and he said that is not enough.

Don Ward stated, yes, it needs to be back 100’…

Director Weaver stated, maybe in town but not in the country he said that’s not enough.

Don Ward stated, that’s far too close. Even if you notice US Highway 421 down there by Delphi those houses are setback but, they are in the way of a problem all along when you get down to Carroll County they are a problem and they going to be worse eventually. They are set back probably 100’ or more.

Director Weaver asked, Jay, didn’t the city just approve some kind of Ordinance as to their requirements for sewers and roads?

Jay Clawson stated, yes we had common wealth engineers make up a book for anyone that’s developing anything as all our requirements for water, sewer and streets.

Director Weaver asked, is there a chance that you could get me one of those?

Jay Clawson stated, they are for sale, I can let you dissect my book, I have one.

Director Weaver stated, I think that would be something helpful for us to have a copy of in the office.

Jay Clawson stated, if you want to come and take it apart and copy it yourself.

Director Weaver stated, well, if the city wants to charge us I do have the money to pay it.

Jay Clawson stated, I will talk to the Mayor…

Director Weaver stated, normally we do that out of courtesy to each other.

Jay Clawson stated, okay, since you supplied him with the Ordinance book maybe we can get you one of those.

Director Weaver stated, well, it will be to the City’s benefit if we have one.

Jay Clawson stated, and then if anyone comes in, if a developer comes in, they’re for sale.

Attorney Altman asked, so Don, do you feel like maybe just more studying and thought on this?

Don Ward stated, well, I have also been busy the last month and I haven’t had time to, I want to get Doug Roberts involved too. I would like to have Steve come to the meetings. I do want to have a meeting between now and the next meeting for sure. I would like to see subdivisions, particularly large subdivisions hot mix.

President Anderson stated, when you get a large subdivision like that their going subdivision part one, part two, part three, part four, do you inspect the roads that’s clear at the end of it or do you do it…

Jay Clawson stated, is it Stone Hollow, the one that is Carter Subdivision…

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Jay Clawson stated, they’ve pot mixed and black topped that whole thing. That is one subdivision that has.

Director Weaver stated, and they are doing that one in phases is how they have done that.

Jay Clawson stated, the first phase is probably close to being sold out.

President Anderson stated, of course when you phase it like that you can keep you heavy equipment off of what you have done.

Jay Clawson stated, well they have gone in and they had some problems the first year but they went back in and re-did some. They put in a binder code and let it set for about a year and a half and then they went in and put a surface coat on it. Some of the binder did kind of hump a little bit when they cut it out but, it seems to be a pretty decent little road in there.

Director Weaver stated, it’s a nice addition.

Don Ward stated, if they have good grades and good drainage and got their sub-base compacted and put their base down good and compacted it will hold. The problem is that they don’t compact anything very well. They just run over it a little bit, call that good, then their stone maybe that deep in some spots and that deep in others and they try to smooth that all out and their blacktop ends up the same way, 1’ deep in some places. According to what Doug tells me, they end up with a really bad job and they use the material but, just haven’t put it in the right spot have it cut to uniform. I realize that it takes someone inspecting to see that is done and that it should be done but, the person developing the subdivision, their engineer should do it. If we start requiring a subdivision of any size, we require that they set their lines and grades and do the staking and stuff like that, it is going to run the engineering bill up but, your going to get a lot better job too. They are going to get more money for it too. If you go down to the National Homes Subdivision here, they built a fairway modest priced homes and at the time those were done about 9,500 dollars but, you take a look at their street, they are still pretty good. That’s been 40 years and they did it right to start with. They did go in and did it, step by step manner and they ended up with a good job and those homes still hold some value yet today.

Jay Clawson stated, the ones behind the Lilly Park, that was kind of a subdivision with curbs and sidewalks.

Don Ward stated, get this done right it will hold pretty well mostly automobiles is all that travels subdivision roads and you know when the weather will tear a road up faster than a car will. I have something else that I want to bring out and that’s Indiana Beach called me and was wondering what was happening about needing plans on everything that they have done since 1995?

Attorney Altman stated, we want permits and I didn’t realize that they didn’t have them.

Don Ward stated, I don’t think that they thought that they needed them.

Attorney Altman stated, well, I have heard that story the only thing that I can say is I think that the Ordinance is pretty clear and that’s all.

Don Ward asked, on their rides?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, well, and anything else that is built really.

Director Weaver stated, we have received a complaint is what initiated that.

Attorney Altman stated, I didn’t realize that they didn’t have permits and once I found that out it’s just real simple. If you build something you need a permit.

Director Weaver stated, they go through the State and get State permits but, they don’t come to the county and follow up with the county.

Don Ward stated, they thought that the State provided you with the plans.

Director Weaver stated, but, even if they do that’s just a State permit, we still require a county permit as well.

Attorney Altman stated, I hear you, the only thing that I’m saying is that’s what we’re asking for Don, if they built it and they didn’t get a permit for it we would like for them to apply, not like, we’ve said, do so.

Don Ward asked, they need plans to do that right? They need a set of plans, they are not my jobs, I didn’t do it…

Attorney Altman stated, I know that, they would need at least, well they need something…

Director Weaver stated, required plans…

Attorney Altman stated, in essence, yes.

Director Weaver stated, any time that there is a State permit issued, we require a set of plans.

Attorney Altman stated, the same thing that they gave the State.

Director Weaver stated, some of those rides require special exceptions, they exceed the height requirements.

Don Ward stated, I don’t doubt that.

Director Weaver stated, we have found in the past where some of these have been done, long ago, 1989 I think is the last one that we found.

Attorney Altman stated, and there was a time where we didn’t has that done but it doesn’t mean that it’s not required.

Don Ward stated, just slipped by…

Attorney Altman stated, we’re not jumping on them like crazy we’re just saying let's get them into compliance as soon as reasonably possible and if you want to come in, Director Weaver or myself will be glad to facilitate this any way that we can.

Director Weaver stated, they are working with us.

Attorney Altman stated, they are working with us.

Director Weaver stated, it’s going to be a slow process.

Don Ward stated, I don’t think that they know where everything is, I think that it’s the young Tom not knowing what has been done over the past few years, who did it, where it is, where stuff is stored. Let's face it I can see why, that is a very difficult place to do anything because you don’t know where anything is. Over the years, nothing has ever been set. So every time that they dig for a foundation, they run into wires, height, drains and all of that has to be moved. It’s moved but, it’s still never recorded but, put down the elevations, what is in there is in Tom’s head and it make it pretty tuff and I can understand how that happened. The way to do it is to start out doing it right 50 years ago and then it would be right today.

Attorney Altman stated, that didn’t happen so what we’re trying to do now is work to get it into compliance.

Don Ward stated, I understand.

Director Weaver stated, one thing that I would like to bring up again, we were worried about having a quorum for tonight’s meeting, until this afternoon. If you know that you’re not going to be able to attend, please give us a call and let us know as soon as possible. If you know that you will attend and you are not going to be available for us to get a hold of you, the morning of the meeting please call us ahead, let us know. It was 1:00 p.m. before we knew if we were going to have a meeting tonight or not.

Attorney Altman stated, budget time.

Director Weaver stated, yes, budget hearings will be in August, I haven’t heard, I don’t have a date yet but, we have submitted our budget.

President Anderson asked, do we have any other business old or new?

Don Ward asked, how is the new inspector doing?

Director Weaver stated, I think that it’s going to work out pretty good, it’s helping me, he is out there catching the people building without permits.

Don Ward asked, is he going to be able to do it for a while by himself?

Director Weaver stated, for the time being. He is still not dealing with any of the towns yet, the towns, some of them have adopted his Ordinance but our recommendation to him was to make them all go in effect at one time. He has to submit them to the State so he is going to submit them to the State for their approval all at once so when the cities go in effect it’s going to be all of the towns all at one time.

Greg Bossaer stated, if for some reason Director Weaver, you know that Spark is not going to be on in September I think that it would be nice to let those people know the same.

Director Weaver stated, Charlie keeps in touch with us.

Greg Bossaer asked, he does?

Director Weaver stated, yes, he comes in and checks with us.

Don Ward stated, Spark doesn’t understand but, he needs that for his own protection as well as everything else because he needs to know exactly where that line is.

President Anderson asked, do you want to close the meeting?

Greg Bossaer made a motion to adjourn.

Jay Clawson seconded the motion.


The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission