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April 16, 2007 Tape #009

The White County Drainage Board convented at 11:25 A.M., EDT in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana with Board Members Steven Burton, John C. Heimlich and Ronald Schmierer, Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Dennis W. Sterrett and Drainage Assistant Mary E. Sterrett in attendance.


Also attending the meeting were Brad Smock, Don Pauken and Charles Mellon.


Chairman Ronald Schmierer called the meeting to order.


Chairman Schmierer announced first on the agenda we need a motion to approve the minutes of the April 2, 2007 meeting. Board Member Steve Burton so moved and Broad Member John Heimlich seconded the motion. The motion was carried unanimously.


Next on the agenda was Smock Farms, Brad Smock Hog Facility Drainage Review. Surveyor Sterrett reports that we have this review for………., question was asked if Brad Smock was present. Answer from Surveyor Sterrett, Brad was here, he came down to the Surveyor’s office and the review was discussed with him. Brad didn’t have any problem with what we discussed.


Engineer Frauhiger presented the Drainage Review for Brad Smock’s Hog Facility. Engineer Frauhiger said, “We went out last week, question was asked where is this located and the reply was near Idaville on Division Road. Engineer Frauhigher continues, what they had planned to do, he submitted for an IDEM approval and IDEM came back and told him that he had to shut off a surface inlet. Surveyor Sterrett and I went out last week to look at the situation and just happened to bump into Bob (Smock), who spent quite a bit of time out there with us, Bob (Brad’s father) owns the farms around the proposed facility. There is a fairly big low spot drained by that surface inlet and it was news to Bob that IDEM was requiring him to close that off. After looking at it, Jim (Milligan) had planned a berm around the building which Brad has absolutely no problems with but Jim just went ahead and put the eight (8) inch tile where IDEM had originally approved the surface flow to go. So, all the water would have dumped into a low spot with no drainage any more which wasn’t going to work.”


Engineer Frauhiger said, I met with Jim (Milligan) last Thursday and we met with Brad this morning and what we are proposing is, they are going to build the berm which Brad has no problem with, we are just going to move the eight (8) inch tile down to this property corner which keeps it well over three hundred (300) feet away from the nearest surface inlet. He (Brad) is going to talk to his Engineer (Mike) and they are going to file a petition with IDEM to change their surface water plan from this, to an eight (8) inch pipe down here which will eliminate having to close this off. After I met with Jim Milligan, went over all the calculations, which were fine, Jim said he had zero problem also just directing all the water down to the corner and putting the eight (8) inch tile in the corner. None of the calculations change, Brad is o.k. with it, Bob is o.k. with it and Jim was o.k. with it so at that particular point I think we are ready to make recommendation for approval.”


Surveyor Sterrett said, “The building is eighty-two (82) by four hundred and twelve (412), the new building.” Engineer Frauhiger continued to say, “They have a drainage problem right now, even with the with the surface inlet in the low spot. You can see where it stays wet and he has lost some crops, Bob was all for the concept of storm water potential and Brad understood also.” Chairman Schmierer asked, “So IDEM don’t have to approval that before we do?” Engineer Frauhiger said, “That is correct.” Board Member Steven Burton asked, “Can we approve this on IDEM’s acceptance ?” Engineer Frauhiger replied, “You can make it contingent on it if you want to.” Chairman Schmierer entertained a motion accept as such, to go ahead and make that motion. Board Member Steven Burton made the motion if IDEM accepts this then we will accept this as the Drainage Plan, contingent on IDEM’s approval. (Brad Smock’s Hog Facility) Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. Motion carried unanimously.


Surveyor Sterrett asked the question, “He will not be able to get his Drainage Permit until he (Brad) supplies us with IDEM’s approval is that correct?” Engineer Frauhiger stated, “He has to go to IDEM because he made the comment this morning that he could not build it this way or he could not build the other way because IDEM would come out and say that he built it incorrectly. He has to go back to IDEM anyway to get the approval and if IDEM would say he can’t do that he will have to go back to the drawing board anyway. It should not be a problem; he doesn’t want to put concrete down, does he?” The answer was “Yes”. Chairman Schmierer said, “We still want IDEM to approve that, we hate to hold him up but by the same token…….give him a foundation release. Surveyor Sterrett stated, “That he (Brad) was wanting a letter from the Surveyor’s Office so he could get a building permit.” Board Member Heimlich said, “If he is scheduled to pour we can give him a foundation release, we have done this before.”


Next on the agenda Richards Subdivision Drainage Review. Surveyor Sterrett said, “They are requesting a wavier. Showing the Drainage Board the plans, he says, “This is Stevenson’s Point pointing to the aerial, this is a five lot subdivision. Jim’s letter in regard to Richards Subdivision says, (reading the letter). The applicant is asking to be exempted from any provisions of the White County, Indiana Drainage and Sediment Control Ordinance this is a non-residential subdivision and the lots are to be used for accessory buildings by the property owners on the north side of the road. Each lot may have to be examined in the future depending on what is proposed to be built. This has gone through Area Plan primary and it was approved on a couple of conditions. One of them was moving the right a way line, there is only a twenty (20) feet road in here again showing Board Members the Drainage Plan. This road come down here and dead ends at this guy garage, you either got to turn around in this guy’s spot or ………”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “What is going to keep them from going to work and building houses in there?” Surveyor Sterrett answered, “That was another thing that Area Plan required was to move this line, actually Area Plan requires fifty (50) feet right of way and there is only twenty (20) feet, but if we moved it fifty (50) feet it would go through this guy garage. So they went to forty-six (46) feet, so this line will move to forty-six (46) feet leaving seventy-four (74) feet. The other requirement was that it would be non residential and that would be stated on the final plat, so no residences can be built. The reason for the subdivision was for two people living along the lake wanting to build garages. Surveyor Sterrett said, “What I am saying there will be some changes in this plan but nothing that pertains to drainage.”


Chairman Schmierer asked, “What if they put in a drive way and building in there you mean to tell me it is not going to affect the drainage?” Engineer Frauhiger replied, “Not in the area, we went out and looked at it and it has good fall right down to the lake.” Surveyor Sterrett using the drainage plans said, “This line is going to shorten up which is only going to leave them seventy-four (74) feet, then there is a thirty (30) foot set back, a resident could not even be built in there. Unless they got a variance but they are dedicating it as a non resident subdivision. Chairman Schmierer said, “Did we approve that this morning?” Surveyor Sterrett said, “I doubt it because it has to go through Area Plan one more time, since it is a five lot subdivision.”


Chairman Schmierer entertain a motion to grant an exemption on Richards Subdivision. The motion was moved by Board Member Steven Burton and the motion was seconded by Board Member John Heimlich. The motion was carried unanimously.


Chairman Schmierer asked, “So they can’t build on that?” Surveyor Sterrett answered, “No, their not going to be able to, well they can build garages on it.” Chairman Schmierer said, “Yes, but they can’t build houses on it.”


Surveyor Sterrett presented the Drainage Review Plans for Monticello Mini Storage, located by the water tower on Sixth Street. Tim Deardorff, Monticello Mini Storage is wanting to add another building and is asking for an exemption to the White County Drainage Ordinance.


Engineer Frauhiger speaking, “What we did we went out and looked at it, do we have the plan in there?” Looking at his drawing (Tim Deardorff) Engineer Frauhiger said, “This building was granted an exemption last year some time, April 17, 2006, about a year ago. Now he has come back wanting to build the same building again. The land here is basically swamp lands owned by the Drive-In-Theater and what we suggested to him and he concurred is since there is so much standing water on the site here (indicated on the map), It looks like he put in a French Drain around this building, there is standing water on the Drive- In-Theater site and that is definitely the low area where all the water in this area drains. We searched all the property owners of record around this and we had him (Tim Deardorff) send out a letter. The letter stated that he was asking the Drainage Board for an exemption to build another building. We got back one response back.”


Surveyor Sterrett showed the letter that was send out and said, “Fred Shidler, from the Golf Course, came in and wanted to see what he was going to do and I showed him the plan and told him that he (Tim) was going to build one more building. Fred said he did not have any problem with it and we never heard from anybody else.” Chairman Schmierer added that it probably isn’t going to affect anything way. Todd agreed and he said that it is going to go to the swamp area where it always goes.


Engineer Frauhiger continued, “The letter was sent out last week so it has been out a little over a week now and no one responds back so far. I am with you; I don’t think it is going to make any major difference. We figured it (the letter) would cover everyone if he got that sent out to the other adjoiner property owners. We put him (Tim) on notice that if he put up an additional building we might have some additional requirements. Surveyor Sterrett reads from the minutes of the April, 17, 2006 Drainage Board Meeting. “If they (Monticello Mini Storage) come back in the future with a lot of hard surface over here we might have to look at something, but right now I don’t see any reason not to go ahead and allow them that building. He is asking for a waiver, that was last year.”


Chairman Schmierer entertained the motion to grant Monticello Mini Storage a wavier of the Drainage Ordinance. Board Member John Heimlich made the motion and Board Member Steven Burton seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Chairman Schmierer presented a letter from Jasper County asking White County to waive our rights on spraying ditches in Jasper County. Chairman Schmierer reads the request, “White County agrees to waive it rights on the Frank Nesius for the purposes of spraying 2007. We have done this in the past, it has been two or three years since we have done it.” Surveyor Sterrett showing the Board (on the drainage map) the area in White County that the Frank Nesius drains. The ditch its self is not in the County but some of the acres in White County drain into the Frank Nesius Drain in Jasper County.


Chairman Schmierer entertained a motion to waive White County’s Rights on the spraying of the Frank Nesius Ditch, Joint Board with Jasper County. Board Member Steven Burton so moved the motion and Board Member John Heimlich seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


Chairman Schmierer asked the Surveyor if he had any thing more to add to the agenda and Surveyor Sterrett wanted ask Board Member Burton about work just done on the ditches in Round Grove Township. Board Member Burton replied, “I haven’t heard anything so that must be good.” Surveyor Sterrett said, “I got a call this morning from Kent Blume, he thought the spoil needed to be leveled a little better. I kind of agreed with him so Mike is going over there at the end of the week and level it off some more. Board Member Burton said, “The Conner looks nice from what I saw from the road. I had forgotten that he was going to do it at that time.” Surveyor Sterrett replied, “That pipe under 1125, the culvert under there was full before that ditch was dipped; now it is falling out of the pipe.”


Chairman Schmierer asked a gentleman in the audience if he had something for the Board, answer “Yes”.


Don Pauken stepped to the microphone. “I put you on a copy to a letter that I sent to the Building Inspector relative to RangeLine Properties. What I would like for you to do, in under number four (4) no drainage permit I requested you should assess their drainage plan approval. The reason for that is listed up in the second item, for a commercial on site waste disposal in each State of Indiana Health Department has certain requirements specified in IHC 6-10 which prohibits travel over the septic tank and field. and also covering is in violation. Underneath this problem, I assume the State requirements; their minimum requirements for commercial on site and the County can not go against or make it easier than what the State has provided. If you give them the permit what you are saying is go ahead and violate the State Code. What I’m asking you to do is take another look at the Drainage Plan relative to that potential problem. I am not saying that they can not get around it in some manner. Right now their permit says they are going to be driving over this impervious surface that is over the field and the tank, if there is a field there. Your tile is right below it which would provide a break down of the system, which that is why the State has the requirement. Breakdown of the system would cause sewage flow into the tile. So, I think you need to re-look at that and also re-look at the drainage plan relative to transferring of the containers from the loading bay. The normal system for a small transfer station is to have one box, basically, and to transfer the box or boxes and transfer them on the drive way. If they do this they tip up and drop the loaded box on to the drive way and anything coming out of the, since they are tipping the box, would come out the end, leachate and fall on to the drive. If they transfer boxes, then they haul the big box to the land fill but……..has an impervious surface which they will doing this on. The leachate then from any rain, snow or snow melt or ice melt would push this leachate into that proposed detention pond which then goes to the Diener Tile, eventually getting into Lake Shafer. So, I think at looking back at the Drainage Plan you should re-look at the Drainage Plan for those two (2) problems. One of them a violation of the State Health Department Code and also how they transfer the boxes. Now, if they don’t transfer the boxes in the drive that one may go away. The State as I understand it, minimum requirement and you can not make it “LESS” of a requirement for the County. If I am wrong let me hear your comments.”


Board Member Heimlich: Actually we have approved the Drainage Plan and I don’t think the……….I remember we talked about the septic system at the time in relation to the tile but I don’t know it is the Drainage Board, I mean we don’t normally get into the issue of the septic systems.


Attorney Loy: Correct


Don Pauken: That was not discussed at the meeting?


Board Member Heimlich: Right!


Chairman Schmierer: I don’t remember that.


Attorney Loy: Coincidentally you also approved a Consent to Encroach…..


Board Member Heimlich: I was going to get to that because we did mention that in our last meeting.


Attorney Loy: I have that!


Board Member Heimlich: You do have that?


Attorney Loy: I have that and attached to it is the map of things that might refresh your recollection of where things are.


Board Member Heimlich: And also have they paid the Drainage Review that’s owed?


Surveyor Sterrett: He called and asked how much that was.


Board Member Burton: Also, I thought when we approved the Drainage Plan that it was contingent on it being resent back to the State because………


Board Member Heimlich: To IDEM and that I assume is being done now.


Attorney Loy: Which I think that has been accomplished.


Board Member Heimlich: It has been done then, I didn’t know.


Attorney Loy: That is my understanding but I can’t confirm that.


Board Member Burton: But until that………….


Attorney Loy: But the Consent to Encroach is strictly for allowing structures as close as, I think, nineteen (19) feet, to the centerline of the Diener Drain.

Broad Member Burton: Right


Chairman Schmierer: There was no, there was no, we didn’t give them the right a way to put black top over it?


Board Member Heimlich: No, just build the building.


Attorney Loy: Yes, just build the ……..the nineteen feet is here.


Board Member Burton: And those would be the cement approach ramps.


Attorney Loy: I held this up because I didn’t, I held on to this until the resolution of the BZA matter and the intermitting lawsuit was over and done with. But this is something you had approved quite some time ago, about a year and one half ago.


Board Member Heimlich: Is the lawsuit done with?


Attorney Loy: Yes, it is.


Chairman Schmierer: I was told last week that it wasn’t, I was told last week that there was a monetary settlement.


Attorney Loy: I sent over copies of the judgment.


Board Member Heimlich: Yes, that was my understanding but Mr. Schmierer was told that ……….


Attorney Loy: You hear all sorts of stuff on the street.


Board Member Heimlich: This wasn’t actually on the street.


Chairman Schmierer: No!


Attorney Loy: That lawsuit is over and done with.


Board Member Heimlich: O.k.


Attorney Loy: No, there are no damages……………


Board Member Burton: Back to my question is it you’re understanding that IDEM has approved ……..


Attorney Loy: I’m not one hundred percent sure.


Board Member Burton: What I’m saying from the Drainage Board is that………


Attorney Loy: That was a condition.


Board Member Heimlich: Right!


Board Member Burton: So there should not be any permit issued until that is cleared up.


Surveyor Sterrett: No!


Attorney Loy: Correct


Someone (Mr. Paulken): There is also the Building Permit.


Board Member Heimlich: But that Drainage Review bill has to be paid.


Surveyor Sterrett: Yes!


Attorney Loy: I am going to tell Mr. Dillinger that, yes this is already it been signed or whatever but a condition of handing it over, so to speak, is payment of all the fees that owed the County.


Inaudible …………………See tape


Chairman Schmierer: So what do we want to do?


Attorney Loy: …………the report to be signed and then I will forward it on but I want payment of our fees that is owed the County, how much?


Surveyor Sterrett: $1,607.50, I think it was.


Board Member Heimlich: Yes!


Attorney Loy: There is a modest handling charge for preparation of this as well so……….


Chairman Schmierer: So do want us to approve this today?


Attorney Loy: It has been approved.


Board Member Heimlich: Yes, we have already approved it, it is just a matter of the paper work had never been done.


Chairman Schmierer: How many copies do you want signed?


Attorney Loy: I would like this one (1) plus two (2) more.


Board Member Heimlich: But they have not got the Drainage Permit yet?


Surveyor Sterrett: They have not got the Drainage Permit; their Drainage Plan has been approved.


Board Member Heimlich: Yes, we approved the plan contingent on IDEM approving it, that is where the hold up came.


Surveyor Sterrett: I think he either called or came in and wanted a Drainage Permit and I said we got …………………


Board Member Heimlich: So, he will have to come back to you with that IDEM approval.


Surveyor Sterrett: That is right! Before Area Plan will issue a Building Permit, he will have to have a Drainage Permit.


Board Member Heimlich: Right!


Mr. Pauken: Can you answer a question for me, what about the State violation? Can you ignore that?


Board Member Heimlich: I would have to ……………


Attorney Loy: People bring up these pop quizzes all the time, they find something on the internet, I don’t know what you are talking about.


Mr. Pauken: I got it straight from the Department of Health.


Board Member Heimlich: That’s fine but what I’m getting at is I don’t know as the Drainage Board is……..

Attorney Loy: I spend thousands of dollars on Law book that take up………..I don’t know what you are talking about.


Board Member Heimlich: He is referring to the septic system.


Attorney Loy: What you just spoke about?


Board Member Heimlich: Being under the………….


Mr. Pauken: You mean you don’t understand that?


Board Member Heimlich: Being under the road………….


Attorney Loy: There are ten of thousand of laws and people say that I found something on the internet on the Indiana Administrative Code that tells that……..o.k., what is your question?


Mr. Pauken: I’m just saying that this is a point blank; it would be a point blank violation of the Indiana Code…….Department of Health.

Attorney Loy: I hear….there is violations all the time with all sorts of……….I wouldn’t begin ………..


Board Member Heimlich: I am not arguing that is a violation, I would think it would be too, because they always tell your leach field you don’t drive heavy machinery over it or any thing like that. So, if you had it where you are going to have semis driving over it that would seem to be a violation but I’m not sure if that is for us to address


Board Member Burton: It is more of Dan Banes…..


Mr. Pauken: The Drainage Board is involved because of the tile that run underneath, so the break down of the system causes contamination in the tile. This is why the Drainage Board is involved.


Board Member Heimlich: That is something, I do remember, I don’t know how long that was now, that Denny and I were both out there and that was one thing that we checked for on a couple of different occasions was any smell in the tile, none was found.


Mr. Pauken: They are not driving over it at the present time; there is no drive way over it. When the facility is put in is when it is going to occur.


Engineer Frauhiger: If it would occur it would have to be corrected, again you are saying what if this happens, what if this happens, what if this happens.


Board Member Heimlich: I never even; at that point we never got a definitive answer where the system was…


Engineer Frauhiger: No, not even sure where it is and there was concern because there was a hole dug out there with some broken clay tiles. The concern that was raised was maybe they have already taken that leach field, actually from the septic tank and tied right into the tile. That’s when we went out a number of times to see if we could recognize sanitary sewer flow in the tile and we never did. We did ask for location drawings of that leach field and I don’t think we ever got a true definition of exactly were it was so apparently you have and you say it is under the drive now.


Mr. Pauken: That is the only place it could be, if there is one.


Attorney Loy: This has been discussed for a year and a half this just didn’t come up today, two years, three years.


Chairman Schmierer: It was discussed back in 04 that is when I was still in here before, and I just came back.

Attorney Loy: People farm over it, drive over it, have crossing over tiles all the time, why didn’t you bring this up two years ago? I mean I asking?


Mr. Pauken: Probably did, I probably did!


Board Member Heimlich: I think it was brought up at time cause that’s why Denny and I, as I say when we were out there at that tile that was one thing we were looking for was whether that was any sewer smell coming out of that…….


Surveyor Sterrett: There was even discussion of even driving over it.


Charles Mellon: It wouldn’t have been then because there was no driving over then or no trash being transferred then, there wouldn’t have been any smell in the tile.


Engineer Frauhiger: There is a gravel parking lot out there right now, traffic moves over it……………..


Board Member Heimlich: Traffic does drive, if that is where it is…we never got a definitive answer to where it was.


Surveyor Sterrett: There is traffic over the tile right now.


Board Member Heimlich: Over the tile yes!


Surveyor Sterrett: At the entrance to other …


Board Member Heimlich: But I’m talking over the septic system.


Engineer Frauhiger: But the leach field has to be extent under that ground now it wouldn’t be big enough otherwise.


Attorney Loy: Their septic system?


Engineer Frauhiger: Their septic system!


Board Member Burton: That is still an issue with Dan not, Dan Banes not this………


Chairman Schmierer: Yes, the Health Department.


Mr. Pauken: If the State controls commercial on site sewer systems, Dan does not…..I have been in contact with Dan and he…….


Board Member Heimlich: What did he tell you?


Mr. Paulken: He says I have nothing to do with it because it is a commercial establishment; it goes by State regulations, not mine.


Board Member Heimlich: But who inspects it?


Someone: Nobody!


Mr. Pauken: Right now nobody, they don’t even know if they have a permit to put it in.


Someone: It?


Mr. Pauken: The one that they have…..


Engineer Frauhiger: You said that you talked to the State?


Mr. Pauken: Yes!


Engineer Frauhiger: What did they say, they didn’t say come to the Drainage Board, I’m sure.


Mr. Pauken: No, they said to talk to IDEM………..I talked to IDEM and they said no that is the Health Department. So, I called the Health Department back and I said, you get with the State and give me an answer. They’re saying it is your problem.


Engineer Frauhiger: They are both the State…..sounds to me that the State Code and the State violation one of the State agencies is going to have to step up and say allowed or it is not allowed.


Mr. Pauken: Exactly and they have both been altered and so called have gone to their legal department but I have not heard anything from them.


Chairman Schmierer adjourned the meeting.