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November 5, 2007 Tape #023

The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:50 A.M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana, with Board Members Ronald Schmierer, John Heimlich and Steve Burton, Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Dennis Sterrett, Drainage Assistant Mary Sterrett and Secretary Jamie Rozzi in attendance.


Engineer Todd Frauhiger, Monticello Mayor Kathy Altman, Mr. Charles Mellon, Ms. Suzie Ford, and Mr. Joe Dunbar were also in attendance.

Chairman Schmierer opened the meeting asking for approval of the minutes for the October 15th, 2007 meeting. Board Member Burton so moved. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. Motion carried.

The next item on the agenda is McDonalds’ Drainage Review for their new construction on U.S 24/Broadway.


Engineer Frauhiger explained, “Just to get our bearings, the new Walgreen’s under construction is just on the adjoining property to the west. McDonalds did do storage detention calculations and they did have to detain water on their property. They are going to do it two-fold. They are going to detain it in the parking lot at the storm water inlets around the north, east, and west side of the parking lot and they are also going to use the pipes themselves underneath the parking lot to get their required storage. Everything is curbed in; the only water that leaves the site is just a little bit at each driveway where there is a break. The rest of the water is contained on the site and the curbs are on the property lines. They tied into the existing storm sewer underneath U.S. 24 and that pipe flows all the way down to Buss Ditch. The downstream end of this pipe was reconstructed when U.S. 24 and Sixth Street was redesigned. I talked to INDOT about this particular plan to see if they had problems with it being tied into that sewer. They did not have any problems with it. The open outlet at Buss Ditch is at least a 24 inch, possibly a 30 inch pipe. There is plenty of capacity once we get the water down to Buss Ditch. Walgreen’s is also tying into the same pipe, but based upon Walgreens underground storage and the storage that McDonalds is supplying, INDOT feels comfortable that the 15 inch pipe will have adequate capacity to carry all water at least down to the intersection and then the larger pipe on down to the Buss Ditch. From a drainage standpoint, we’re ready to recommend approval for this particular site.


“The property to the east of them, the Harvest Time Restaurant, they have a major water problem there when it rains. That place is flooded when it rains. You can hardly get into their building on the west side when it is raining. They are trying to drain that parking lot into a hole out by the street,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“What is interesting is that this 15 inch storm sewer from INDOT ends right here at this structure (right at the drive for McDonalds),” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


Chairman Schmierer continued, “Whatever the Harvest Time Restaurant has, you can see it out there on the on the west side of their parking lot, you can see the hole in the ground. It is about an 8 to 10 inch hole in the ground where they are trying to drain all of that water into.”


“Is it an inlet or just a suck hole?” Engineer Frauhiger asked.


“It’s an inlet. When it rains, that parking lot is flooded,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“You answered my question, Todd. To go along with what Chairman Schmierer was saying the INDOT pipe stops there and doesn’t continue on, so there is not a possibility of someone else tying into it to where we’ll be over capacity, correct?” Board Member Burton explained.

“That is correct. What is interesting is that they (Harvest Time) are obviously tied into some tile,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“I don’t know where that water goes; all I can tell you is that if you go to the west side of their driveway and you can see the hole. They have tried to grade it that way to get the water to go that way, but when it rains ½ inch rain, the whole parking lot is flooded,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“Didn’t the engineer say that there was a drainage divide and that part of the water went east and part of it went west?” Surveyor Sterrett asked.


Engineer Frauhiger stated, “If you go out there now, there is a ditch that is going to be filled in. You will see a pipe that comes this direction, there was a ditch created here, and I think that Walgreens put a turn lane in about 1 ½ weeks ago.”


“I don’t think there is anything you can do about it, I am just stating that place next to McDonalds holds water,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“I think that McDonalds will stop some of the water that used to run over there. If you look at the contours,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“I don’t think there is anything we can do about it, I just wondered if that was the same tile, but you don’t think it is?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“No, I don’t think it is. It shows it ending right there at McDonalds,” Engineer Frauhiger answered.


“What about that property behind there? I know there is some kind of building there, it is all McDonalds?” Mr. Mellon asked.


“No, there are houses behind McDonalds. There is an auto sales business behind Walgreens and the building that is existing on the McDonalds property will be demolished,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“So it is ready to be approved Engineer Frauhiger?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Yes it is. I do want to mention that we had a chance to speak with Mayor Kathy Altman and Doug Roberts this morning to kind of go over the plans with them. Do you have any comments?” Engineer Frauhiger asked.


“Yes, so is it the consensus that the McDonalds Drainage System will actually help the Harvest Time Restaurant’s drainage problem?” Mary Altman asked.


“It is not my consensus. That is what the Surveyor and Engineer have said,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“It should help,” Engineer Frauhiger answered.


“I am concerned because you are talking about the divide where the water drains west and the water drains east. Is there a better way to do it if we get the water from the restaurant also draining to the west? I am thinking of any remediation we can do to take water out of the system it is draining into,” Mayor Altman commented.


“It seems like a good place to tie in, if you could do that it would be at this inlet here on the McDonalds property, but with the curb along the eastern property line any water that would have flowed over land onto the restaurant property will now be caught by the curb and directed to one of those inlets. So, that is why it should definitely help,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“It doesn’t help it further to connect it to the tiling system so that the Harvest Time’s system can drain west?” Mayor Altman asked.


“If you connected it, what would have to happen is that you’d have to connect it here (pointing to the inlet on the McDonalds property) and that pipe would have to be larger,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“I don’t think we can ask them to do that,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“No, you can’t ask them to do that,” Mayor Altman agreed.


“One of the problems with the Harvest Time Restaurant is that it is an old drive-in restaurant and the back half of that (before they built the front on) was built flat on the ground. They have water that even gets into the kitchen area and stuff back there too. They haven’t done anything to help themselves,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“I am just trying to find out if there is any way that we can address the city’s overall problem of too much water going into the wastewater treatment plant,” Mayor Altman explained.


“I don’t think that water goes to the wastewater treatment plant. No, the water that flows west goes to the Buss Ditch. I don’t know where the water goes that flows east. There is a just a pipe or suck hole there,” Chairman Schmierer explained.


“The east drain goes uptown,” Mr. Mellon added.


“Yes, because it is really flat. There is a 683.24 and a 683.3, 683.3, 683.7, so if anything it was coming this way,” Engineer Frauhiger explained.


“I think the lot next to the Harvest Time Restaurant is higher than their parking lot too. I think both the east and west lots are higher, so they are basically sitting in a hole,” Chairman Schmierer added.


“It should help because it is a little higher existing over here than it is here, so the water is going toward the east, but we’re going to stop it,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


I entertain a motion to approve the McDonalds Drainage Review. Board Member Burton so moved. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously.


The third item on the agenda is the request of a drainage exemption for Ford Acres Subdivision.


“Where is Ford Acres Subdivision?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“If you take 425 East almost down to Luse Road, Ford Acres is on the west side of the road. They want to sell the vacant lot to the north of them,” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


“How big is the vacant lot?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“I think it is 0.8 of an acre,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“Was it already a plotted subdivision?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“No,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“Are they selling to adjoining landowners?” Attorney Loy asked.


“They are going to divide it up into two lots. There is a house on the other lot. The total acreage for the tract is 2.04 acres,” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


“Don’t they have to go through Area Plan also?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Yes. It has not been to Area Plan yet,” Surveyor Sterrett explained. Surveyor Sterrett then described several photos that he had taken of the site. There is a corrugated pipe that runs underneath the road that allows drainage from the east side of the road to the west side of the road. So, this is a low lot. You can see a little bit of dead grass back in this area,” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


“Where does that water go? Does it flow right through?” Board Member Heimlich asked.


“I think that water comes from the field to the west,” Ms. Ford replied.


“Were you satisfied with it John when you looked at it?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“I wondered if you were going to build there. You have that water coming from the other side of the road right through the middle.


I imagine that the water comes through and goes down. The grass is dead right in this area, so it probably comes down and flows back into this and toward the field. If you build on that lot you’d have to provide some way for the water to get around it. You would have to raise your house up a couple of feet,” Surveyor Sterrett.


“I’m not sure that you would want to grant a blanket exemption to that because depending upon what is done there, it could affect some other properties,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“Is it going through the BZA or Area Plan?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Area Plan,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“You are going through the subdivision process for a two lot subdivision, correct?” Attorney Loy asked.


“Yes, we are going to make two lots out of one,” Ms. Ford replied.


“Is that a 15 inch pipe, do you know?” Engineer Todd Frauhiger asked.


“I never went over there and measured it. It looks like a 15 inch pipe. You can see that these are two foot contours, so 99, 97, 96…,” Surveyor Sterrett added.


“Don’t you think we would be better off to let them subdivide it and then when they get ready to build have them come in for a drainage permit so we can see what they are going to do?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“I was wondering about that. Is there going to be another time that they come to us? At this time there is no building proposed, but if we grant the exemption, what happens later if someone wants to build something there?” Board Member Heimlich asked.


“The neighbor, we haven’t approached him, might be interested. He had talked about it at one time. The neighbor to the north,” Ms. Ford stated.


“The thing is that if someone builds something in the middle of where that water is flowing the water is going to be diverted somehow. It is going to affect somebody,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“The water is in the back of the lot more,” Ms. Ford added.


“Now it is, but if someone builds up front in the middle of that lot, that water that comes from the other side of the road is going to be diverted someplace,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“It would seem like there should be a drainage and utility easement across both sides of the property. Board Member Heimlich, you are exactly right, there will have to be a swale constructed between the properties to go ahead and get the water around the building site and back. Normally, that would be done on the drainage or utility easement,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“So, if you split the property line with the ditch you would have enough room for a swale,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“I still think we want to hold off on giving a drainage exemption,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“I don’t think that it fits the exemption clause because someone could be affected by what goes in there. Someone’s drainage could be adversely affected,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“So, basically the next time that you would look at it would be when someone purchases the lot wanting to build a house. They would have to go for a building permit,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“Then at that point they would need a drainage permit,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“She won’t be able to get it through area plan without drainage,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“The reason she is here to begin with is to subdivide,” Attorney Loy stated.


“I suppose that you could make conditions to it,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“I don’t think you can give a blanket exemption to it. I think they need to have plan for what they are going to do with the water. So, if they want an exemption from a drainage permit, I don’t think it fits the criteria for an exemption and we don’t want to give an exemption. We need to have a drainage plan submitted,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“Are you sure that the culvert is working? There is no water lying in front of the culvert and there is not any water in the middle of the land. It’s in the back of the lot,” Ms. Ford stated.


“There wouldn’t be, except for a heavy rain,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“If you build a house in there and raise it up two feet, that water can’t get through there any more,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“There are two foot contours there, so there is quite a bit of fall,” Engineer Frauhiger added.


“I think what it really needs is a drainage plan, not an exemption for drainage,’ Chairman Schmierer stated.


“Wouldn’t that be up to the person that bought it?” Ms. Ford asked.


“You are going to have to have a drainage plan to get through Area Plan in order for them to approve it if you are going to subdivide it. Your Surveyor is capable of drawing up a drainage plan to show where he is going to go with the water on that lot. He would like to take the easy way and just get an exemption, but it doesn’t qualify for an exemption the way our books read. Todd, is that correct?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Well, they won’t have to put detention in, but you are right, since there is drainage crossing the property they have to show how they will perpetuate that,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“You just can’t run the water over on the neighboring field either. You are going to have to do something with it,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“This water that comes from upstream, that water has to be perpetuated,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“You have to keep that water flowing the way it is now, you can’t just block it,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“If this is 99 and 93 over toward the field then it has to be heading toward the field,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“Any building there is going to block that water flow,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“I don’t know who designed this but they need drainage and utility easements, they need to show the ditches, and they need to show how the water is going to be handled,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“It is not impossible to do; you just have to have a drainage plan. You need to have a plan for that,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“And I get that from the Surveyor?” Ms. Ford asked.


“I would say that he is capable of drawing it in,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“I don’t think it would take anything elaborate,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“You aren’t referring to Surveyor Sterrett are you?” Attorney Loy stated.


“No, she would need to get it from her surveyor, Jim Milligan,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“I just can’t believe that I am having so much trouble trying to sell one piece of acreage that we don’t want to mow anymore,” Ms. Ford stated.


“You really don’t have any trouble other than the fact that he asked for a drainage exemption and he should be well aware that it doesn’t qualify for an exemption,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“So why he didn’t just go ahead and do it?” Ms. Ford asked.


“I don’t know why he didn’t. It just doesn’t qualify for the exemption,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“He may disagree with that statement, but that is the answer,” Board Member Burton stated.


So, I need to have a drainage plan designed and it will have to be brought back up before the board?” Ms. Ford asked.


“Yes,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


The next item on the agenda is Joe Dunbar and the W.F. Meyers Drain. He is requesting to put in an 8’x32’ tank car. There is a pipe under the road. I think there is a 12” or 15,” tile coming out of the field.


“You can see that crossing from the interstate can’t you, Mr. Dunbar?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Yes, you can,” Mr. Dunbar replied.


“Is there something in there now?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Yes, a concrete bridge. It is deteriorating and it needs maintenance,” Mr. Dunbar stated.


“So, basically we are doing the same thing that we did for Mr. Wiese, correct?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Yes,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“Where he pays for it…we put it in and he pays for it,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“The way Mr. Wiese did was that he got the contractor, we paid for it and then he reimbursed us,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“You understood that right, Joe?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“No, I didn’t. I hadn’t heard that, but that’s ok. Anyway to get it done,” Mr. Dunbar replied.


“Mr. Don Ward’s report said that an eight foot culvert should easily pass a flood occurring once every 25 years and should do the same for a 35 year flood frequency. However, he did not think it would work for a 50 year, he thought it would go over top,” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


“Overtop the pipe?” Engineer Frauhiger asked.


“Yes,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“Did he say how many acres he thought drained into that?” Board Member Burton asked.


“Yes, he estimated 758 acres and he used 800 for his calculations. He had them done down at Kline’s down at Lafayette. He is also recommending to put (inaudible) and rip-rap at the inlet and outlet to prevent any erosion,” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


“With that short of pipe we prefer to put concrete on the ends, so we have the full length of the pipe for the crossing. If you put rip-rap then it has to slope,” Mr. Dunbar stated.


“Don Ward meant rip-rap down in the ditch in front of the pipe,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“We can just use that concrete for that,” Mr. Dunbar stated.


“So you were going to put headwalls on it?” Surveyor Sterrett asked.


“That would be my choice so we can use the whole pipe,” Mr. Dunbar stated.


“So, Mr. Dunbar will get the contractor to put it in, present the county with a bill, the county will pay the bill and Mr. Dunbar will reimburse the county, correct?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Yes, that way it goes through maintenance,” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


“On the flood part, I was over there when they had those big floods a couple of years ago in July. It never got up to the bridge, but the bridge is low, it goes down low and there is 7 feet down to the bottom of the ditch now and if you put an 8 foot pipe in, you are going to raise it up quite a lot. If it does flood, it would be gone within a day and wouldn’t stay there very long. We’re not going to damage any crops, my crops would be damaged as much as anyone else,” Mr. Dunbar stated.


“That ditch starts back to the west, just such a short distance from this crossing. If the water goes across that bridge it’s because it’s backed from the interstate, probably not because it’s backed up at the bridge,” Board Member Burton stated.


“Actually, the interstate pipe is 12 foot,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“But it’s a matter of it being backed up in the other direction,” Board Member Burton stated.


“The plans say the pipe under the interstate should have been buried two feet below grade,” Surveyor Sterrett added.


“Plus, you’ve got the interstate side ditches dumping in,” Board Member Burton stated.


“I would entertain a motion to approve a drain for Joe Dunbar on the W.F. Meyers Drain that he will reimburse the county for,” Chairman Schmierer stated. Board Member Heimlich so moved. Board Member Burton seconded the motion. Motion carried.


“We are working on cleaning a ditch over by Headlee. The ditch is Branch #5 of the Ackerman. It runs down through Roth, Nice, Hood, Blackman, and McKillip properties. There is a county tile coming in at this point and it is all backed up. We keep repairing the tile in that spot. So, we have about half day more of surveying this branch and then we’ll have to put it on the drawing table. Branch #5 of the Ackerman is paid by the Ackerman Drain. Will we want to have a landowner’s meeting?” asked Surveyor Sterrett.


“Probably,” Attorney Loy stated.


“I wanted to do it on Maintenance, there is approximately $41,000 in the fund,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“Do we notify the entire Ackerman watershed?” Surveyor Sterrett asked.


“Usually the answer would be yes, how big is your watershed?” Attorney Loy asked.


“There are 100 landowners and 4,400 acres,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“You will have to notify all of them because Branch #5 of the Ackerman is paid by the Ackerman,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“That’s fine, I just wanted to be sure,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“The last item I would like to show you is how many watersheds have been put on GIS. It looks like they are about half done. If I want to look up the watershed of a particular area, like the Ackerman for example, you can just select it from the list on the left and it will bring it up,” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


“Why did they pick the ones that they have done so far?” Board Member Burton asked.


Surveyor Sterrett continued, “We sent them about two dozen at a time. We went down the list of drains and sent them according to their number. We had a list to start out with so they could give us an estimate of how much it was going to cost. We used that list and sent it to them and then when they switched from Plexis to Manatron it kind of stopped. It has started back up again and it will be nice when it is finished to have that information available. I will be able to see where the watershed boundaries are. You can turn the parcels on. They don’t have it loaded on yet, but eventually you should be able to click on a particular parcel and it will tell you how many acres drains into the drain. When they get it done, you will be able to get a report on how many acres are in that watershed. You will be able to click on ‘View Report’ and all of the landowners will come up along with the amount of benefited acres.”


Chairman Schmierer asked if work had begun on the Esther Fraser. Surveyor Sterrett stated that County Line Tiling/Excavating has to do the A. K. Ruth before starting on the Esther Fraser. There is also about 2,000 feet of the Coonrod that was supposed to be cleaned and Surveyor Sterrett called Sam Snyder who got the bid on that and Mr. Snyder said that he was starting November 6th or 7th on that job.


Chairman Schmierer then asked if there was anything further for the Drainage Board.


Chairman Schmierer then adjourned the meeting.