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The White County Area Plan Commission met Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioner’s Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, Stephen Fisher, Don Ward and Rick Raderstorf. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Charles R. Mellon, R.F. Kelly, Michael Finnegan, Noreen & Troy Holmes, Charlie VanVoorst, Donna Warner, Kay Heisner, Lee & Diane Miller and Bruce Moss.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. David Rosenbarger made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the September 10, 2001 and October 9, 2001 meeting. Motion was seconded by Don Ward and carried unanimously.


#772 Donna K. Criswell; Requesting to rezone from I-1 to B-2 on 0.727 Acres. The property is located in the City of Monticello at 400 & 402 W. Fisher Street.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing that request? Do you want to state your name?

Donna Criswell stated, Donna Criswell Warner.

President Anderson asked, is there anyone here in the audience with any questions about that request at all? Do the Commissioners have any questions for Donna?

Director Weaver stated, we have not had any calls on this request. Under the analysis if you will notice on your staff report, I have noted that this does meet the minimum size requirement for a B-2 zoning. There is an existing retail business on the property that is grandfathered from the old zoning and what they are wanting to do is make some changes to this property. So they need

to bring this business into compliance with our current Ordinance before they can do those changes.

Attorney Altman stated, so that this is not a violation of any sort, it’s just bring it in like you said…

Director Weaver stated, that’s right…

Attorney Altman stated, compliance and they can do what a B-2 should be.

Director Weaver stated, right.

President Anderson stated, if there are no other questions, I say let's go ahead and vote.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to City of Monticello for their action.

Attorney Altman asked, that will be next Monday, right Jay, at 7:00?

Jay Clawson stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, and they will have the final say so, if anyone is interested, they had better be there.


#773 Charles W. & Cheryl A. VanVoorst; Requesting to rezone from R-2 to B-2 on .462 Acres. The property is located in the Town of Reynolds on the South side of 2nd Street (U.S. Hwy. 24) and on the East side of the railroad tracks.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here to represent this request?

Charlie VanVoorst was present to represent this request.

President Anderson asked, is there anyone here in the audience with any questions about that request at all?

Robert Kelly asked, how can he start building before he gets it rezoned? Is that legal?

President Anderson asked, the original zoning on that is what, R-2?

Director Weaver stated, R-2 and he did get a building permit for a detached garage.

President Anderson asked, and then, do you want to respond to that Charlie?

Charlie VanVoorst stated, I started out that I was going to put an apartment in there, I changed my mind I thought that I might put an office building in there.

President Anderson asked, and you want to contest to the legality of what he has done so far on that?

Attorney Altman asked, obviously, if he puts a business in there he needs to rezone it for an R-2 that would be assuming that the, I don’t think that the request, building permit would permit an apartment being there would it?

Director Weaver stated, no.

Attorney Altman asked, so that would have to be changed or amended if that’s what he’s going to do?

Director Weaver stated, that’s right.

President Anderson asked, would that be a State permit then, if it’s going to be a business?

Director Weaver stated, if it’s going to be a business yes, he will have to go through the State and I believe that he has already talked to our building inspector about this.

Attorney Altman asked, and is the building permit that he received, is that building consistent with the building permit that he has received right now?

Director Weaver stated, as far as I’m aware, yes.

President Anderson asked, what he is building right now will go into the, as residential and wouldn’t, hasn’t crossed any lines or anything?

Director Weaver stated, not that I’m aware of, no.

President Anderson stated, on residential, he is allowed to put a building but, what he uses that building for if it’s residential he can’t use that as a business. It would have to be under that residential code in there.

Attorney Altman stated, but, he hasn’t done…

President Anderson stated, but, he still has a right to build a building on that but, have a change the zoning to business then he has to instead of a county permit, he has to have a state permit for that.

Director Weaver stated, in addition to a county.

President Anderson asked, in addition to it. Do you have any other question about that Spark?

Robert Kelly asked, if he puts and office building in, is that business?

President Anderson stated, right now it’s nothing. Right now it’s a structure being constructed. If he doesn’t get it changed to business, he can’t run it as a business, he would have to do something else with it that would be within the guidelines of an R-2.

Attorney Altman stated, and having a detached garage is consistent with that so right now, he has a permit to do what he is doing.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions?

Jay Clawson asked, does the foundation that is there meet the setback requirements for B-2 on a highway or is that going to have to be raised before it can be constructed?

Don Ward asked, do you intend to convert that building to a business building?

Charlie VanVoorst stated, it’s being built as a business building.

Don Ward asked, so it would go through Administrative Building Council, it would be approved right?

Charlie VanVoorst stated, it already has a state permit.

Don Ward stated, it already has it.

Steve Fisher asked, Attorney Altman, can you build a detached garage on a residential lot alone without a residence there?

Director Weaver stated, you could not under the old Ordinance but, you can under this Ordinance.

Steve Fisher asked, that’s why I was, with the new Ordinance you can?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Steve Fisher asked, without it attaching to another property?

Director Weaver stated, and Jay, in answer to your question, yes, this would still meet the setback requirements under a B-2 zoning.

President Anderson asked, do any other Commissioners have any questions about the request?

Robert Kelly asked, what would be the setbacks on that?

Director Weaver asked, what is the setback requirement?

Robert Kelly stated, yes.

Director Weaver stated, under the R-2 zoning it is 32’ from the front, 6’ on the side for a detached garage, 6’ on the side and 6’ on the rear. Under B-2 zoning it is 25’ on the front, 8’ on the side because, it adjoins a residential property and 10’ on the rear.

Robert Kelly asked, the height on that has nothing to do with it right?

Director Weaver stated, I have discussed the height of the building, I was concerned about the height of the building myself, I have discussed that with the building Inspector and he assures me that it is going to meet the height requirement for residential or business, either one.

President Anderson asked, are there any other questions about that request at all?

Jay Clawson asked, does Reynolds still have that part where when you build the building, they have to pave, did they amend that…

Director Weaver asked, for the parking?

Jay Clawson stated, for the parking.

Director Weaver stated, I believe that they did amend that.

Jay Clawson asked, approved parking and since this is going in and has a parking plan that he submitted to you for the business meet? We have never done this where it’s in the middle of construction…

Director Weaver stated, no, Reynolds does require that it be paved and is still with the old Ordinance on that.

Attorney Altman stated, so he would have to pave the parking there.

Jay Clawson stated, right.

President Anderson asked, and there is plenty of space for parking area?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

President Anderson asked, are there any other questions about this request?

Jay Clawson stated, normally when we’re rezoning it’s pretty easy, you can say this but, when someone already has a foundation there you need to make sure, it’s kind of a different situation than we normally do.

Steve Fisher asked, where is this residential that is abutting?

Director Weaver stated, to the East.

Charlie VanVoorst stated, there is business to the East.

Director Weaver asked, is it business to the East?

Charlie VanVoorst stated, yes, business to the East.

Director Weaver stated, then you’re residential to the South.

Charlie VanVoorst stated, South, right next to the…

Director Weaver stated, yes, I do remember that on the zoning map.

Don Ward stated, North is business too but, I think that it said not, it was residential.

President Anderson stated, to the West is the railroad tracks and then the business.

David Rosenbarger asked, are we requiring a fence between the residential and a business?

Director Weaver stated, if it gets passed, part of the Ordinance is that they do have to put a fence up yes.

Steve Fisher asked, which, is that the full length or just where it abuts against the residential.

Charlie VanVoorst asked, if it adjoins a business you have to have…

Jay Clawson stated, no…

Director Weaver stated, if it adjoins residential.

Jay Clawson stated, if you abut up against a, business abuts up to a residential…

Charlie VanVoorst stated, it doesn’t so…

Director Weaver stated, on the South side it does, correct.

Charlie VanVoorst stated, on the South side…

David Rosenbarger stated, this says general business to the West and South.

Charlie VanVoorst stated, you have business all of the way around it but, the property I use to own, that I sold.

Director Weaver asked, Dave, it doesn’t go the full length of there between those two streets, correct Charlie?

Charlie VanVoorst asked, pardon?

Director Weaver asked, let me bring this to you, it only goes half of this lot right?

Charlie VanVoorst stated, no it goes from street to street.

Director Weaver stated, yes it does go from street to street so, it does not directly adjoin residential.

Steve Fisher asked, it does not?

Director Weaver stated, no because, there is a street there.

Don Ward asked, this is the old railroad property there isn’t it?

Director Weaver stated, yes, it is.

Charlie VanVoorst stated, the grain elevator sits over here.

Don Ward asked, what is the business to the East?

Charlie VanVoorst stated, it’s just a lot that is zoned business.

Director Weaver stated, yes, just a vacant lot zoned business.

Steve Fisher stated, it’s not showing that lot on this drawing.

Don Ward stated, they are not showing…

Jay Clawson stated, it’s not showing…

Don Ward stated, that’s the difference then.

Charlie VanVoorst stated, there use to be a house there.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any other questions? Does the audience have any more questions at all? If not I say let's go ahead and vote.

Jay Clawson asked, he’s going to have to resubmit his thing for the building permit, building permit for a business right?

Director Weaver stated, yes, we will have to revise his permit, yes.

Jay Clawson asked, you would check into everything to make sure…

Director Weaver stated, right, to make sure that it is valid.

President Anderson stated, it’s usually a good idea, if you’re going to build a business on a property to have it zoned that way.

Charlie VanVoorst stated, that wasn’t my first intent though. In fact, I was in the process of subdividing it to put a duplex on both ends of it. In fact, the paperwork was never finished by Milligan to subdivide it.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to Town of Reynolds for their action.

Attorney Altman stated, this will be forwarded with an affirmative recommendation to the Town Board of Reynolds, we do that, we don’t know exactly when they will hear it so, you have to check with them to make sure to know exactly when they will hear this matter. They usually do it right away but, sometimes we don’t know what right away it fits into their schedule.


#774 Troy & Noreen Holmes; Requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-2 on 3.66 Acres. The property is located in Honey Creek Township at 2681 E. 325 N.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing that request?

Troy Holmes stated, Troy and Noreen Holmes.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions about that request at all? Anyone in the audience have any questions about the request? Do you have anything?

Director Weaver stated, we have not had any calls on this but, under my analysis I have put that it does meet the minimum size requirement for the R-2 zoning. There is an apartment, an existing apartment in what was an attached garage. The property is not zoned for two residences on one parcel of ground so they are requesting to bring the property into compliance with the Ordinance.

Attorney Altman asked, so is it presently being used as two residences.

Director Weaver asked, I don’t believe their, you’re not actually at this time using as two residences…

Troy Holmes stated, no.

Director Weaver stated, they have just recently purchased the property and that’s how this all came about, they called us for an address for the apartment and that’s how it was discovered that they had an illegal use on the property.

President Anderson stated, if there are no questions, I say let's, do the Commissioners have any questions…

Director Weaver stated, yes Jay, Andy’s Hideway is right there behind it.

President Anderson stated, if not let's go ahead and vote.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to County Commissioners for their action.

Attorney Altman stated, they will at their next meeting which is next Monday morning at 8:30 right here and they have the final say on this, next Monday morning right here at 8:30.


#775 Lee & Diane Miller; Requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-1 on 3.00 & 3.00 Acres. The property is located in Union Township on the North side of Luse Road and East of C.R. 425 E.

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing this request?

Lee Miller stated, Lee and Diane.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions about that request?

Don Ward asked, where is the ingress and egress, to enter your property? It looks like it is landlocked.

Lee Miller stated, there is an easement to the first lot.

Attorney Altman stated, the description says that the above parcel having a 30’ assessment across the entire East end is what it says Don. Both of them say that they have, the other one says that it has and I don’t know which one is which but, one of them says that it has a 30’ access easement from the Southeast corner of said parcel to Luse Road so I don’t know exactly where that easement is but, that’s the description that we were given Don.

President Anderson asked, do you want to respond to that Lee?

Lee Miller stated, there is going to be 3, 3-acre lots. Now, one of them is our current residence, it has a 30’ easement and we have the legal description of the other two the middle one also has a 30’ easement and then the last one does not, the easement goes to that third property and that’s the end of the easement. So the first two properties have a 30’ easement and the third one does not. Once you reach that property, you are on it.

President Anderson asked, are you going to subdivide these lots?

Lee Miller stated, no.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any other questions? What is the third 3 acre lot zoned? The one that you’re living on right now.

Lee Miller stated, that is the first one, just a little over 3 acres, 3.011 or something like that.

Director Weaver stated, and it is zoned A-1, Agricultural.

Lee Miller stated, yes.

President Anderson stated, so they are changing it?

Director Weaver stated, no, the one that has the home on it now is not being changed. It is the two 3 acre tracks behind that, to the North of them.

President Anderson asked, does anyone in the audience have any questions about this request?

Steve Fisher asked, why bother rezoning it, it’s already cut, he can build on it…

Director Weaver stated, he can build on it but, the R-1 zoning gives him a larger building area.

Steve Fisher asked, is that what you’re after?

Lee Miller stated, yes.

David Rosenbarger asked, and he doesn’t have to have a variance?

Director Weaver stated, right.

Attorney Altman stated, but, it does restrict it to one family residence, it is a trade off here but, it isn’t exactly that.

President Anderson stated, if there are no other questions, I say let's go ahead and vote.

Jay Clawson stated, it’s not really in compliance, we asked for more easement than what…

Attorney Altman stated, than what he has apparently.

Steve Fisher stated, they are buildable now as they are as a new point…

Jay Clawson stated, self maintained it your self, that’s the only thing is, if you want a road back there that would ever be taken over by the county it would have to have a 50’ easement.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, it really limits complaints…

Jay Clawson stated, those are the things, if you’re willing to look at those, so are we.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to County Commissioners for their action.

Attorney Altman stated, it will be forwarded to the County Commissioners next Monday morning at 8:30 and they have the final say on this.


#267 Kay Heisner; Requesting secondary approval of a 8 lot subdivision to be known as Echo Trail Estates on 8.905 Acres. The property is located in Liberty Township on the Southwest corner of Kiger Drive and C.R. 850 N.

President Anderson asked, does everything meet the…

Director Weaver stated, yes…

President Anderson asked, is there any improvements that they need to do on this?

Director Weaver stated, looking back on my notes from the last meeting, we asked for something in writing saying that the Association is responsible to maintain the 6” drainage tile and clarification on tract A, the purpose of tract A, both of these items are on the new plat that we have in the file.

Jay Clawson asked, did you get the thing from the well drillers?

Director Weaver asked, we needed a letter from the Moss Well Drilling and I think Kay, did you want to inform them about that?

Kay Heisner stated, I have Bruce Moss from Moss Well Drilling right here and you can either ask him questions or he can just give you some information on that area and how much water we have available up there.

Attorney Altman asked, where is the plat?

Director Weaver stated, very front.

Attorney Altman stated, you go ahead and present your evidence Kay.

Bruce Moss stated, I didn’t know about writing a letter because I really didn’t know exactly what you people wanted me to address. The question that I was asked was, is there water, is there a problem with water? Is that a general question?

Jay Clawson stated, a couple years or so ago they came toward and a lot of the neighbors were worried about the water table in that area with another big subdivision would that drop the water table in that area and cause other people in your proximity to loose their water, that’s what we were…

Bruce Moss stated, an aquifer, what feeds the area is an aquifer. The aquifer recharges every single day, sometimes to the magnitude of 20 to 30 or 40 million gallons of water every day so when someone asks about water table, water table we call a static water table. Water tables fluctuate and has nothing to do with how much water is available, if you drain Lake Shaffer, a gallon of water weighs 8.66 pounds, gravity of water on the earth puts pressure to push water up to people’s wells you’re not drinking lake water but, that gravity is what pushes water tables and makes it fluctuate. So when you drain the lake peoples water tables drop unless they have what is called a shallow well or a 2” well or a driven well the likelihood of their well drying up or having problems is basically slim to none, 2” wells are different. Most 2” wells range from 15’ to 50’, probably 90 percent of all 2” wells in this area range in that, if they are a two inch well so will they run out of water, I mean, there is no guarantee that no one would ever run out of water but, the probability or possibility is not very high.

Jay Clawson asked, if they have a modern drilled 4” well…

Bruce Moss stated, 5”…

Jay Clawson asked, is it a 5”, if it’s a standard well they shouldn’t have any problems, there is enough water in that aquifer to carry it?

Bruce Moss stated, there is enough water in that aquifer, there is already laws that are in effect not codes but, actual laws that are in effect that if you whether you’re a farmer or a business or a municipality like Delphi, the City of Delphi, if you remove I think that it’s, I may be a little bit off but, I think that it’s 90 gallons a minute if you multiply that out but, if you remove 90 gallons a minutes and you effect other peoples wells you are legally responsible to take care of their wells. There is other criteria that comes into that but, the City of Delphi, no one is immune from it so a residential person is not hardly going to effect anyone, the average person uses 75 gallons of water per person, per day. You would have to put in multitude to magnitude and unbelievable irrigation systems and even then prudential obviously effected but, they were removing 5,000 gallons per minute when you take in all that they were doing, well you certainly can effect aquifers that way but, you are responsible so will her subdivision effect, I doubt that you could even measure what if any effect that it would have. The wells in that area are quite strong. We have a very rare situation in the Monticello and entire White County of problems finding water, it’s just not a problem it’s just a question of how deep we would have to go.

President Anderson asked, how deep are those wells in that area?

Bruce Moss asked, is this like 850 North up Kiger, is that where it’s at?

Kay Heisner stated, yes, where Steve Carter is.

Bruce Moss stated, probably wells will range from 70 to 110, probably 8 percent will fall right in that range and they will vary anywhere from 25 to 150 gallons per minute. A homeowner’s normal average well only uses 10 to 15 gallons per minute when it’s being used. The reality is that it’s not really used a lot when you think about it, you shower, you wash but, on the whole you’re not using a lot of water. It takes months to affect an aquifer. Also if we would have a drought or a dry spell, people begin to panic and they give me all kinds of calls when in fact it’s going to take anywhere from 3 to 12 months of a dry spell or a wet spell either one to effect the aquifer because, hydrological site takes that long. It’s not instantaneously by any means it takes a long time to effect that aquifer. The drought that we had a couple of years ago, it took almost 9 months before it really started to effect people that had lost track of time and they didn’t, it just takes a long time and even then even though it effected it the only thing water tables dropped, it recovered eventually.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any other questions?

Ron Schmierer asked, when this subdivision was brought before us about two years ago Director Weaver, wasn’t at that time, wasn’t there more questions about the sewage than anything else about the septic systems in that area and not being able to handle it. If I remember, we had a room full of people that in the Commissioners meeting and they all questioned the septic, was that water or that subdivision been test bored the same as you did in Prairie Township when you done that subdivision to make sure that septics are suitable for that ground?

Director Weaver stated, she did have soil tests done on these lots.

Ron Schmierer asked, she did?

Director Weaver stated, yes, she did and they are in the file.

Ron Schmierer stated, I was just curious because, I remember that two years ago or, about two years ago when that was an issue.

Director Weaver stated, it was a rezoning that’s when she was trying to rezone the property.

Ron Schmierer stated, okay, I remember that there was quite an issue about it.

Director Weaver stated, right, and she has had soil tests done and the plat does show where each one of those locations have been done.

Ron Schmierer stated, that’s fine, I just had a question on it.

Jay Clawson stated, from what I remember, there were people that were asking more about the water.

Attorney Altman stated, they were talking much more about the water tables…

Ron Schmierer stated, well, we had both…

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t recall septic being the issue up there, do you? I don’t doubt that they came to you about that.

Jay Clawson stated, it could be where they came to the next week to their meeting and had a bunch of whole different questions.

Ron Schmierer stated, there was water and septic both at that time and that was the only thing that I was questioning.

President Anderson asked, are there any other questions?

Attorney Altman asked, Bruce, what is your occupation?

Bruce Moss stated, I own, I’m half owner of Moss Well Drilling Incorporated.

Attorney Altman asked, how long have you drilled wells?

Bruce Moss stated, I started when I was 5 years old, I had a corporate life of about 12 years before I came back into it so, I have done it all of my life.

Attorney Altman asked, how old are you now?

Bruce Moss stated, 47.

Attorney Altman asked, okay, you drill wells in the area?

Bruce Moss stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, I’m trying to lay a foundation here so that the basis of your testimony, you do wells in this area?

Bruce Moss stated, yes, I do, a lot.

Attorney Altman asked, a lot in this area. Approximately, how many wells have you drilled in this immediate area?

Bruce Moss stated, overall in a years time we will drill about 240 to 250 wells, in this particular area, in White County, I would say probably 35 to 40 a year.

Attorney Altman asked, so your testimony is based upon actual experience in drilling wells in the immediate vicinity, Echo Trails estates subdivision.

Bruce Moss stated, yes.

Kay Heisner stated, Attorney Altman for the record, I went on the Internet and there is the state has the wells or they are suppose to be registered and they are not all there but, there was two right on that, on that Kiger Drive that he drilled.

Attorney Altman stated, very good, I believe it, I just want to make the record.

Charlie Mellon stated, Moss Well Drillers has drilled for us since about 1961 or 1962. They drilled about 8 wells on the farm and they were going to drill our irrigation wells but, he didn’t want to tackle it so he got his relation gilman in Lafayette to drill us 4, 12” wells and you don’t need to worry about water up there, there is all kinds of water.

President Anderson asked, do we have any other question?

Attorney Altman stated, relative to the other issues that we have asked them to bring on the plat and I’m reading from it right now. Tract A, and that’s the small tract that accesses to the lake and is also refereed to as common area is to be owned and maintained by Echo Trail Estates Homeowners Association and that’s one thing that we wanted to have and have on the plat. The tile drains from the detention pond on lots #3 and #8 are to be installed by Echo Trails Estates Development. The repair and maintenance of this 6” tile drain from the detention pond on lots 3 and 8 shall be the responsibility of Echo Trails Estates Homeowners Association and I just everyone to understand that, that was and is being put on the plat so as we have requested. I wanted to read it into the record. I think that, that’s the only thing that they isn’t it Director Weaver?

Director Weaver stated, I believe so.

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s all that we have requested right?

President Anderson asked, so, everything that we have asked have been, passed the standards, everything is in compliance and waiting their approval?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, very good.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Echo Trails Estates located in Liberty Township, was approved by a vote of 7 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

Attorney Altman stated, 10-day appeal and then you have a subdivision.


President Anderson asked, next on the agenda is business and we have Ron Schmierer here with us and would like to talk to us. Would you like to come up Ron?

Ron Schmierer stated, first of all fellows I would like to thank you for the job that you do, you keep us out of hot water most of the time. What I came by for tonight is we’re in the process with Cheryl Pherson to do some revamping on the Ordinance for the Area Plan for the way of permitting for Indiana Beach rides. There are two or three issues there that concerned me and the rest of the Commissioners and that is the fact that if we’re going to permit these rides. We basically have to have them inspected. We don’t have anyone in the county we want for an inspector because we don’t have anyone that we want to pay that kind of money to in the first place. In the second place, it was my understanding when I first came on 5 years ago or soon to be 5 years that they hadn’t been permitting these rides from the standpoint that they didn’t want the liability and there again, that’s one of the reason that we’re going to do some work on this so when we get this done which I hope that she will have it done in the next month or so, I will get copies to Director Weaver and she can get copies to you folks so that you can read them and we would like to have your input to see where, what you think about it in what we’re trying to do. The only other issue that I think that we really have that we would like to see something done with and I’m not sure that has anything to do with your Board is I think that I probably get more complaints and John does too and I’m sure that Bud does too is the permitting process. We would like to get the permitting process to where someone doesn’t have to come back and forth 3 or 4 times. I feel like if they come here from Brookston or Round Grove or someplace with the right materials to get a permit that they shouldn’t have to come back a second or third time. That is 50 miles round trip to Round Grove and we’re going to work with Director Weaver on that to see what we can get done on that. Other than that, that’s just, I wanted to come in tonight and let you know that we are working on it, Cheryl is working on it and we get to where we get the Ordinance rewrote the way or amended, whatever you do with them.

President Anderson asked, doesn’t the state have some kind of inspection that they do on those rides?

Ron Schmierer stated, the state permits the rides and that’s the reason that we don’t do it, we don’t want to permit. We don’t want the liability so you get someone out of Chicago that comes down here and if the county has permitted a ride they are an idiot enough to stand up on a ride and get their head tore off we’re going to get sued. I know that it’s a prevalent lawsuit, we’re probably not going to loose but, by the same token it costs money to hire and attorney to defend us for something that we don’t need to be doing. The Beach had came to the Commissioners probably 2 years ago and asked us to put an Ordinance in the county to, it was illegal for them to ride a ride other than the way that it was intended to be rode and at the time I guess that they had problems with people standing up on roller coaster. Well, if the idiot wants to stand on a roller coaster power to him but, I’m not going to tell him he can’t stand up because if he gets his head tore off, I want him to sue the beach, not White County and that’s just, as far as I’m concerned, they don’t need us to give them an Ordinance like that they own the Beach they have the right to throw anyone off of the property that they want off of the property and that’s where we stood on that so that’s the reason why, that’s mainly the main reason why we don’t want to permit the rides is the liability end of it and inspecting it. so even Marion County doesn’t issue permits for the rides, we checked that out through the state so that’s what we’re going to be working on because we just thought that we should come forward to the Board, let the Board know what we’re doing and elevate some problems if we can.

Steve Fisher asked, are you just talking about the rides them selves or are you talking about all of their structures?

Ron Schmierer stated, just rides, the only thing that we’re interested in is rides. Structures are no better than you or me, that’s the way that I look at it, they have to get, and I don’t think that they have been getting some of their structures but I think that they will in the future.

Director Weaver stated, they are doing better.

Ron Schmierer stated, I don’t think that there is any problem with them now and I don’t know whether, I can’t, it’s oversight and Spackman does a lot for the county, when we put the stop light in I just had an argument with someone the other day and Don knows when we put the stop light in, Spackman paid for that, we didn’t and there was a guy complaining about that the other day so they, that’s fine, they should get what they need to get but, the rides as far as I’m concerned and as far as John, Bud and I are concerned and from the liability, that’s the reason that we’re doing it and that’s the only reason why we’re doing it because I don’t want the liability and I don’t know what it would cost for an inspector, my God, I can’t imagine.

Jay Clawson asked, are you getting too much problems, I mean if we don’t look at their plans, if they submit plans to us before they build…

Ron Schmierer asked, on the rides?

Jay Clawson stated, yes.

Ron Schmierer stated, I don’t want any part of it.

Jay Clawson asked, you don’t even want to look at them.

Ron Schmierer stated, no, I don’t care what they do, they get a state permit, if anything falls down, let the state worry about it. I don’t want any part of it, that’s the way that I look at it Jay.

President Anderson asked, does the State send people out to inspect it?

Ron Schmierer stated, oh, yes, they can’t even turn the electric on to those rides in the spring until the state s in there to inspect it.

President Anderson stated, well, there is no reason for us to inspect them again.

Ron Schmierer stated, no and they are here in June, July and August, they are here every month, at least once a month, every 30 days.

Attorney Altman asked, but, the actual structure the ride sits on, you want that to be solid right?

Ron Schmierer stated, I don’t want anything to do with that ride, I don’t give a damn if it falls over, we’re not going to permit it.

Attorney Altman stated, no, but, you said structure and we have our Ordinance says is like the beams that carried up there…

Ron Schmierer stated, we’re not going to have anything to do with the beam.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, that’s what I want to hear then, it isn’t, I want to know what you…

Ron Schmierer stated, I don’t want the liability for the county.

Don Ward asked, do they have their own inspectors on payroll or do they hire someone?

Ron Schmierer asked, State?

Don Ward stated, yes.

Ron Schmierer stated, I don’t know but you know they have a schedule inspection twice year too. The other thing too that you have to remember about rides is we don’t wan to permit rides from the standpoint if they are coming in over at the county fair with the Farris Wheel is a shabby outfit, if you permit that too so if we don’t permit rides, that keeps us out of that and I’m sure that you’re not going to loose a lawsuit like that but, it costs thousands of dollars to be finished and that’s the reason that I’m saying it.

Don Ward stated, if I, charge admission that gave him a lot more authority to throw people off.

Ron Schmierer stated, it does but they came to us and asked us to do it. I should have brought that letter tonight and I said no the day he came I said why would we want to do that? Why would we want to open the county to more liability, and I don’t want to. We have enough liability coverage.

Steve Fisher asked, what if they decide that they are going to build a new rocket ship ride or something like that, what protects the people in that vicinity of their rights to say gosh we don’t want a 10,000’ tower or something like that, are you considering anything with that of a maximum of what they can do out there?

Ron Schmierer stated, if it’s an entertainment ride the state will issue those and there is a way to go through the state to stop it too.

President Anderson stated, there is probably a height limit on that…

Ron Schmierer stated, well the state has a height limit on that and I don’t know what they are but, that’s like when they built that roller coaster, they had a state inspector there practically every day this last winter and I didn’t realize that until just lately.

Steve Fisher stated, that’s kind of the reason for the Board itself is not only make sure that the people do the right things as far as the ordinance is concerned, to protect the property owners themselves for their value of what they have.

Ron Schmierer stated, I agree with you but, the thing of it is, we’re going to let the state protect them.

Steve Fisher stated, I understand you objection, I just wondered, don’t let too much of it go though whether or not he can do anything more.

Ron Schmierer stated, what has he got 2 properties around there to protect and the lawsuit or the people that are raising hell now all of that is, is money. I set in BZA meeting and that’s money. You’re in business, you know what I’m talking about, and I hear it every day of the week. That is not my concern about that out there. The thing that I’m talking about is no concern to the county, I could care less but we’re just not going to.

Jay Clawson stated, well, look at what the Chamber of Commerce got into by just tagging their name on a little rodeo if someone gets hurt then what do they do, they not only name the people that had the rodeo, the rodeo and since they endorsed the thing then the Chamber of Commerce gets put on the lawsuit too.

Ron Schmierer stated, you’re looking at someone out of the kindness of his heart, some young kid came to me about 14 years ago and said I want to run a stock car this year, will you sponsor me and I said yes, put my name on it and I will give you 500 dollars. The wheels flew off of that stock car and my insurance company paid like a 37,000-dollar claim and the guy from the insurance wanted that off of that stock car yet that night. I never dreamt that would happen and I don’t know what they spent in funds to protect me but, I never dreamt that would happen and so that’s and the trouble of it is the society that we live in, you fellows know as well as I do that the society that we live in it’s free money go after it so that’s the reason that we just decided that we just don’t want it and he is getting ready to remodel that other roller coaster right now and I think that it’s going to go higher I’m not sure if it’s going to go higher or what he’s going to do with it but, it’s going to go faster I’m sure and if the county, if it’s a catastrophe I don’t want the county to be name in a lawsuit and that’s what it amounts to. We have discussed it between the Commissioners and maybe we’re doing wrong but, we’re doing what we think is right and that’s all that you can do.

Don Ward stated, I don’t think that you’re wrong, I think that it is a state thing, it’s not really a county…

Ron Schmierer stated, we don’t’ want to do…

Don Ward stated, and we’re not experts on that…

Ron Schmierer stated, I can’t imagine what he’s paying an inspector to be on the payroll 4 months a year.

President Anderson stated, we don’t have a big enough of a tax base to do it…

Ron Schmierer stated, no, and that’s the trouble. I appreciate you letting me speak to you, I just wanted you to know what we wee doing here.

President Anderson asked, do we have any other business that we want to discuss tonight?

Director Weaver stated, yes, first Attorney Altman, did you want to explain to them with your pictures tonight I gave you a copy of a land use committee report. Do you want to explain that to the Board?

Attorney Altman stated, I never saw a land use committee report, oh...

Director Weaver stated, I was going to say, you gave it to me this morning and asked me to give it to them.

Attorney Altman stated, the, I’m trying to think that task force that they have organized on this Lilly’s Grant Fund, Foundation. It has 9 particular areas and one of them is land use. We have had a committee working on this trying to come up with a mission statement and in some areas of concern that they wanted to come up and their primary recommendation and Greg wrote this up as to have it studied through an ad hoc permit. They believed that they just, I guess they believe that this is the best way to help us do our job and this is a lot broader than just zoning but, it has a lot to do with zoning I sure appreciate some input on that if you have any that you would like to do and that’s about all that I really can say. Read over it, please get back to me on that.

Don Ward asked, by Thursday right?

Attorney Altman stated, well, we’re going to make a report Thursday but that doesn’t mean…

Don Ward asked, you mean later…

Attorney Altman stated, yes because you guys are probably going to be on this committee that I expect the Commissioners will decide to have to study this and to work on things like septic and limitations and size of lots and all of these sorts of things and quite frankly they are really worried about even having subdivisions in agricultural areas and limiting that. Force then to go towards the towns and cities that are already have the septic and the water. So this is just a start.

Don Ward stated, well they also have police protection, fire protection…

Attorney Altman stated, yes and that’s no less actually Don you’re right, we don’t need to cobble it up more than what we have and it’s only going to get worse if we don’t take a step of some sort there. What else?

Director Weaver stated, I had sent out copies of the claims to the Board members, any input, any questions on any of these claims. I sent these to you, I’m just having a hard time, no criticism to you Attorney Altman but, I don’t have knowledge of what’s feasible, what’s not feasible what we should pay, what we should not pay and someone had suggested to me that this would be, let the Board see the claims that would be a way to monitor these claims if there was anything to be questioned then that would be the opportunity to do so. So that’s what I have done.

President Anderson asked, do we have any questions out here on these?

Don Ward asked, the one question that I have was on this one of October 22nd, preparation of the stipulated settlement was that our job?

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t know, let me take a look and figure it out…

Don Ward stated, Little, Attorney Little.

Attorney Altman stated, that was for the Board of Zoning Appeals.

Don Ward asked, so you prepared that for the Area Plan?

Attorney Altman stated, for the Board of Zoning Appeals.

Don Ward stated, oh, I see.

Attorney Altman stated, and I always figure honestly that I, when someone hires me that they really get more benefit out of me if I prepare the first draft of a document than let someone else try to fill the darts out because I can make it so it’s where I want it to be and generally they don’t even change it then. If you let someone else do it then you have to throw the darts and usually it takes more lawyer time than preparing the first draft.

David Rosenbarger stated, several of these I think I’m right are things that we requested where we added something to I think it was on Furrer’s where he had to write up an agreement that, that was all that it would be used for and I’m just using that for an example, Attorney Altman, you bill was 70 dollars, that was to review it?

Attorney Altman stated, yes and to add things to it, I would have to look at my bill and see exactly…

David Rosenbarger stated, I guess my thought is and I know that the Town of Brookston has gone through it, that should be a cost deferred not to the, we have gone through such a thing that when our lawyer needs to look over a proposal that we have asked for or that we want them to do, our lawyer is to okay it, fine tune it or whatever it’s at their expense. Is there any way that we can write up something like that if we ask for a, I don’t know what the word is but, when we ask someone to…

Attorney Altman stated, an opinion is generally is what you would ask…

David Rosenbarger stated, yes, when we’re asking them to write up something specific to put with the title or whatever it goes with the zoning, our lawyer has to read it and make sue it’s what we asked for but, it should be their expense.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t have any problems with that.

Director Weaver stated, I agree with that.

Attorney Altman stated, it just hasn’t been but…

David Rosenbarger stated, there again and I probably seem like the county as far as the town just let them know, have your lawyer get a hold of our lawyer because you’re going to pay for it and he can give you an idea of what it’s going to cost, give you an estimate or something like that. I know that Brookston got to the point, we were spending a lot of money on lawyers looking over thousands of stuff and in fact we kind of got taken to the cleaners on one deal and that’s when we adopted the deal that if our lawyer does something to check their work…

Director Weaver stated, I think that’s a good policy because our costs are getting higher and higher…

David Rosenbarger stated, right and that’s what I look at here, some of these that I recognized were stuff that we asked for and I know that Attorney Altman has to, whether they had their lawyer draw it up or whatever he had to look over it to let us know that it’s okay but, that’s just an added…

Steve Fisher asked, basically, can’t you just make that an office policy upon yourself Director Weaver to just say that when they are in the office, we’re going to change something on your benefit…

Director Weaver stated, I think that’s something that needs to be done right here when we’re discussing a commitment we need to tell them right up front, if there is a commitment then it’s at their expense for their attorney and our attorney to review it…

Jay Clawson stated, and if we’re here at the meeting, I agree, we should let them know because actually by us giving them a commitment we’re doing something different out of the scope of our ordinance which is going to take extra legal fees and the county should not have to pay for it…

David Rosenbarger stated, I agree…

Jay Clawson stated, and like you say, Attorney Altman should be compensated…

Director Weaver stated, yes, right…

Jay Clawson stated, because it’s more but, I thin this is something that they draw up especially for them, it’s not something that it’s a blanket policy that’s going to cover everyone in the county so Attorney Altman should be compensated by that person and most of the bills in here are minimal, 80, 60, 80, 100 dollars some might be a couple of hundred if it’s and most of the ones that were higher I’ve seen were BZA people tat were in trouble so you had more time involved in those…

David Rosenbarger stated, the only thing that I see right now is Attorney Altman is pretty much guaranteed that we pay his bill here because if we go this other route, how do we make sure that you get paid from these people. In other works, can we make the show proof that attorney fees have been paid before the building permit is issued.

Director Weaver stated, well, but, there is not always a building permit in fault so we can make it be paid prior to the rezoning passing.

David Rosenbarger stated, I’m just looking at the attorney side of it…

Director Weaver stated, that s a good point too….

David Rosenbarger stated, we need put some teeth in it that you’re not going to get this unless you take care of…

Director Weaver stated, and we do on like the BZA items where they are a violation or something of that sort if they are penalized or fined we do try to cover our expenses, that’s the reason I made this chart up so that we know how much expense we have incurred on anyone particular item so that we can recover those costs…

David Rosenbarger stated, that’s just my opinion, I just hate to see taxpayers in the county paying for someone’s special exception or their plan development or whatever.

Don Ward asked, we need some kind of a set up so we know so if there’s an addition of what we pay to make sure that we pay what we should pay. There are some things that we really should pay.

Director Weaver asked, does the Board have a problem with me continuing to make copies of these so tat you can review them and prior to us paying these bills so tat you are aware of what costs were incurred?

David Rosenbarger stated, I see what you’re saying, there are certain things that Attorney Altman does for the Board that is for the Board…

Don Ward stated, yes…

David Rosenbarger stated, I guess my concern is that, is why I brought it up, the special exception that they write up or commitment and Attorney Altman needs to okay that, that’s what the Board did want and it would refer to us, I think that a specific that I think they should carry the burden of the finical part of it.

Director Weaver stated, my feeling too, we have had someone this year that has requested to conference with Attorney Altman and myself and I feel that, that person should have to pay Attorney Altman’s fees. I don’t know if the Board agrees with me on that, that was my feeling is that if they are requesting to conference with our attorney then they should compensate our attorney otherwise, they can come to me and if there are questions then I will go on to our attorney but, if they want to conference with our attorney I feel like they should cover that expense.

Don Ward stated, I agree.

David Rosenbarger stated, if they are requesting a conference with the lawyer then…

Jay Clawson stated, definitely…

David Rosenbarger stated, yes.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t have anything else other than, amendments, has anyone given any thought to any of those, anything that we want amended. I hope to work on amendments this winter, over the winter and get some things done that I had hoped to get done last winter.

Jay Clawson stated, Steve asked earlier about detached garages and I noticed that there is one and the same person is building another one and it’s going to move the same thing, it was built as a detached garage it was sold and then became a residence and with the population that is changing they think that it’s, well it’s not, how do we keep that from happening because the square footage is not there…

Director Weaver stated, we have a square footage requirement…

Jay Clawson stated, somehow it has slipped through the…

Director Weaver stated, it has never been enforced…

Jay Clawson stated, the thing, so is it now with our new building inspector?

Director Weaver stated, I can’t answer that.

Jay Clawson stated, another thing that people have brought up to me is when you’re laying out homes is a lot of people in the neighborhoods are upset that they have narrow lots and people are bringing sectional homes in, setting them sideways with the end of the house facing the street, it’s not good for the neighborhoods, a lot of people don’t like it, it’s just ruining the whole look, if they have certain sections out that now are made that you can pull in a narrow lot and they are designed to have a front entrance and that’s the way that they are designed but, the house has to have a front door facing a street, you know setting the street somehow. We need to fine-tune our Ordinance because it’s becoming more and more of a practice.

David Rosenbarger asked, that is but is that how you get your street addresses, which street your door faces?

Director Weaver stated, no, if your on a corner lot it is optional which street you are addressed off of and it doesn’t necessarily have to be which way the front of the home faces. Something too would be sectionals…

Steve Fisher stated, I agree with him on that same thing…

Director Weaver stated, I agree…

Steve Fisher stated, the thing with the garage is there didn’t seem to be a problem with the old ordinance other than you don’t build a detached garage before a residence…

Director Weaver stated, yes but, in a lot of situations you have people that are wanting to build a shed or a detached garage for them to store their materials in while they are building the home, that does happen a lot.

Steve Fisher stated, as long as there is some type of commitment that they are going to do that I see the case that they are going to build a garage and then all of a sudden they are running a small engine repair shop out of it…

Director Weaver stated, okay on the other hand too think along the lakes, a lot of the properties that own lots along the water don’t have room for that detached garage on that lot so they purchase property across from it and if we don’t allow it then that property is…

Steve Fisher stated, but, you can marry those two lots together, you can say these two lots are one…

Director Weaver stated, you can’t combine them together if there is a road in-between.

David Rosenbarger stated, what you want to do is not have the turn it into a house…

Director Weaver stated, well, my thought on that too, is require it to meet the setbacks for a house because a detached garage does not have the same setback requirements as a home. So if it is built, as a detached garage not let it be converted to a home unless it meets our minimum space, building requirement and setbacks for a home if we can think about doing something like that.

Jay Clawson stated, because I think that there is one on Third Street that was just built, it was two cars, actually it was set as a 3-car garage and now it’s a two car and I think that there is an apartment moved into the other end of it. I have been trying to kind of look at this but I think that’s what it’s moved into.

Director Weaver stated, well, we have a building inspector in Monticello now and we sure can check it.

Steve Fisher stated, down on the corner of Bluff and South Streets you have a duplex that had an old existing lawnmower repair shop that now all of sudden, I think that unit is a triplex because I think that there are people living in that back building….

Rick Raderstorf stated, there are two buildings, there is the bigger old garage and then behind it there is another little…

Director Weaver stated, see they really can’t do these things. They are required to get a building permit to do so and that’s when we check the zoning and they should not be able to have an address for these, they should not be able to get electric hook up, they should not be able to do a lot of things without us getting involved.

Steve Fisher stated, maybe it’s shared, maybe one person is paying the bill for the entire lot and splitting it up, there are ways to get around it…

Director Weaver stated, they are getting around it, we’re finding more and more.

Attorney Altman asked, do we need to file a violation on these things? It sounds like we do.

Director Weaver stated, well, that’s just like the rezoning that we had tonight, he claims that there was an apartment in this home when he purchased the home but, they called us wanting an address for it so that they could have their own meter for that apartment that’s the only way that we got involved and at that time we told him sorry, we will not give you and address because it’s an illegal use so we will not issue you an address for that apartment but, if it had not been for that we would have never known.

David Rosenbarger stated, if they would have left the electric and everything on one bill…

Director Weaver stated, right, we would have never known.

Jay Clawson stated, probably what might have happened was these people that lived there before might have had a mother-in-law or someone that was living in the back part, fixed it up as an apartment for them or a child, grown child that and it was alright, everything was paid out of one thing but, if you want to have separate utilities…

Attorney Altman stated, it sounds to me like the thing Steve is talking about is we should get in a violation on that and maybe on the apartment that you’re talking about, the garage that you’re talking about Jay, if you would both please get me the specifics, I would be glad to research it and file a complaint on that, both of them.

Don Ward stated, we definitely need to follow up on that.

Director Weaver asked, yes, we do. I’m sitting here thinking though is this our area or is this, maybe we can get the building inspector is…

Attorney Altman stated, it sounds like a zoning problem, a triplex…

Director Weaver stated, the triplex would be…

Attorney Altman stated, the other may not be but, I’m not…

Director Weaver stated, that’s something that I guess has caused a little bit confusion, the building inspector as to who is to pursue what violation, especially when they are a joint violation.

There was discussion among the Board members

Jay Clawson stated, well that was the whole idea when we said, when they were building the second duplex, was how can they, they are suppose to put them on the street, that’s a perfect example right there that we will see for 40 years of bad zoning.

David Rosenbarger stated, Brookston is full of those little skinny lots…

Jay Clawson stated, well they get variance and they put two duplexes on little bitty lot one of them is on a retaining wall, you can’t even walk out the front door without falling off, you have a 6’ drop and they don’t have enough room they need a railroad turn style, they go in there, they pull the cars and turn the cars sideways so that they can get in the garage…

Director Weaver stated, okay, and that did go through the Board of Zoning Appeals to get approval to go in.

Jay Clawson stated, that’s what I mean and I asked one of the members on that and they just thought that they were giving a variance for setbacks for one duplex to go in there but that is one of the things that you can sit and see why you are making a decision of what you are actually doing. Something that fell through the cracks that we won’t be able to change but, you can see for future reference that those questions are asked so that doesn’t happen.

Director Weaver stated, why we are on that subject, I do have a comment, in the years that I have been director I just think that the Board of Zoning Appeals has really shown great concern now, much more than they did when I first took over and I think that the county is going to benefit from that, I think that they are more concerned and trying to do a much better job.

Don Ward made a motion to adjourn.

Steve Fisher seconded the motion.


The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission