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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, August 12, 2002, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Charles Anderson, David Scott, Stephen Fisher, Don Ward, Gregory Bossaer, Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors attending were: Charles R. Mellon, Ken Hinshaw, Robert Lamb, Rita Cameron and David Flora.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. No minutes were available to approve.

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#797 Rita C. & James A. Cameron; Requesting to rezone from L-1 to B-2 on Lots #3, #4, #5 and #6 in Beauty Beach Addition. The property is located in Union Township at 2715 S. Airport Road also known as Big Timber Lodge Inc. This was tabled from the July 8, 2002 meeting.

The recorder was not turned on.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to County Commissioners for their action.

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#798 David L. Flora; Requesting to amend the commitment as agreed on with the previous rezoning #775 on 17.00 Acres. The property is located in Big Creek Township at 5372 S. State Road 43.

The recorder was not turned on at the beginning of this request.

Attorney Altman stated, paper will be blowing that way, is that right Doc?

David Flora stated, yes, we would have to have East wind and it would have to get past, in order to cause anybody any trouble. We would have to have East wind, it will have to get past my

lagoon out there and it’s got trees, I recon as tall as my head or bigger and it has to get past the fence, the height on the West side of it.

Attorney Altman asked, that fence is a farm fence is it Doc?

David Flora stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, that’s the West boundary fence and it goes along the entire West of side you real estate. I don’t know if the Board has any other thoughts on this, I’m sure you do, at least they need that.

Don Ward asked, is it going to restrict his area? Do you have enough room leaving the fence the way that you have it?

David Flora stated, say that again.

Don Ward asked, do you have enough room to work inside of that fence that you have installed now?

David Flora stated, yes.

Jay Clawson asked, if you move the setback….

Don Ward asked, …expand it.

David Flora asked, what did he say? I can’t hear you.

Don Ward asked, do you think that you will ever need to expand out in that other area?

David Flora stated, there is no need for it.

Steve Fisher stated, I guess that’s what I would be concerned about it, if we made an agreement modification that whomever owns it in the future if they decide to, since it is all rezoned into “I’ or business or whatever…

Don Ward stated, I-2…

Steve Fisher stated, that whatever area is being used is going to be fenced I mean because you can easily go from the other side of that.

Attorney Altman asked, yes, so what you’re really saying is he has to restrict his use of the property that is North of this fence and the lagoon number 3 to the old A-1 usage, which is what he’s using right now for farming….

Jay Clawson stated, unless he fences it…

Steve Fisher stated, yes, if he wants to fence it that’s fine, he can use it.

Attorney Altman stated, unless, he fences it.

Jay Clawson stated, if he expands he needs to fence in what he expands.

Steve Fisher stated, right, that’s a good way to put it.

Attorney Altman asked, and that would be a fence no closer than 80’, would that be what you are saying Jay?

Jay Clawson stated, yes I think we need to adhere to the 80’ rule to the right-of-way, I mean he had that before he put his, you know build all of this fence and should have adhered to that when he does it because, I think that it, ingress and egress trying to get in and out and trucks parked that close when, I don’t think that they need to be on the setback. That’s what we agreed to with the, and he had that when he built the fence so he should have built it to what he agreed to, I mean that part of it, I agree. The main jest is to keep his paper inside his thing. I don’t have a problem with him you know, fencing off less area if he’s not using it because that’s what we’ve got it to just to keep the trash in…

Steve Fisher stated, right.

Jay Clawson stated, but keep it off of the State right-of-way, I think that should be adhered to.

Attorney Altman stated, so the 80’, and you’re saying this…

Jay Clawson stated, yes, that’s my feeling, I mean the rest of the Board can vote how they want to.

President Anderson stated, but, this wouldn’t comply with that and then…

Attorney Altman stated, so you would just have to move it back 80’.

President Anderson stated, move it back 80’ and the fence...

President Anderson stated, or put another fence and a gate in there.

Don Ward asked, I assume it’s not on the right-of-way line, right?

Jay Clawson stated, it’s on the old field right-of-way because it looks like he just put it right by the old fence.

Attorney Altman stated, possible that it will really work but, I suppose yes. The trucks I expect to keep them all as probably pretty, you know eliminate them pretty much.

President Anderson asked, are there any more questions about that?

Attorney Altman stated, we do have a letter, and I do want to read it in the minutes so that, we got this, the 12th of this month and it went to Director Weaver, in the White County Area Plan Commission from Wayne Klinkhammer. The letter was read out loud to the Board members and the audience members.

President Anderson asked do the Commissioners have any other questions about the fence, extend down from the 80’?

Steve Fisher stated, I would make a suggestion that he did just like Mrs., Rita did, is go to you and draw up a correct amendment of what he wants and what we’re talking about doing so that everyone is clear obviously it’s been….

Attorney Altman stated, and I understand Jay has voiced an objection of modifying the commitment to allow anything be closer then the 80’ to the highway…

Jay Clawson stated, right, that we specified.

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s what Doc. Was saying that he could possibly back up to that area and do that. I guess I’m saying is just to move this along is that and I hear you saying the same thing so I think that’s 2 votes that, does anyone else…

Don Ward stated, yes, I think that it should be.

David Scott stated, I will agree with that.

Attorney Altman asked, okay, so what do you say?

Jay Clawson stated, and then we can modify his fence to cover the in use area of, you know, any future expansion will have to be…

President Anderson asked, do you understand what they saying Doc?

David Flora stated, yes, I do.

Jay Clawson stated, any future expansion would have to be fenced in by the 6’ fence.

Attorney Altman asked, at the 80’?

Jay Clawson stated, right at the 80’ right-of-way.

Attorney Altman stated, 80’ from the right-of-way.

Jay Clawson stated, right.

President Anderson asked, does anybody have any problem with the back part of the property on the North, by the lagoon there, not fenced in?

Steve Fisher asked, it wasn’t fenced before though, right?

President Anderson stated, yes but, we would have had a fence out front but, I don’t see any need for it back there.

Steve Fisher stated, no.

Attorney Altman stated, I think what I hear everybody saying about this, since I am going to draft this that the consensus is that he moves it all back 80’, then he’s okay where he is…

Don Ward stated, well, chain link…

Attorney Altman stated, if he’s going to move, if he’s going to have the business further North, then he needs to extend his fence 80’, or off the highway 80’ and along the North boundary. If he ever expands...

Don Ward stated, or contain to whatever he expands.

Attorney Altman stated, exactly Don, yes. Do you understand Doc?

David Flora stated, I do.

Attorney Altman asked, is that all right?

President Anderson asked, do we have to wait for another meeting to do that?

Attorney Altman stated, I think that, number one he’s got a commitment already I think that probably, let me think just a second. Given the very little modification that we’re talking about just moving it back 80’, I think that if you voted tonight to accept that…

President Anderson stated, as what we stated on, on the record.

Attorney Altman stated, as it is stated and as on the drawing, I think that we can proceed right now.

President Anderson stated, I think that would be better off for Doc too.

Attorney Altman asked, yes, that’s one thing and then he knows right now where he is. Does that meet everyone’s approval?

Don Ward stated, yes.

Steve Fisher stated, that’s fine.

President Anderson stated, I say let's go ahead and vote.

Attorney Altman stated, so everything is moving back to the 80’ right-of-way line and that’s the…

Don Ward stated, well, that was in the part so we’re just saying that he has to move it back where it belongs.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, and he’s going to go along with it.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, I think you’re, that was approved.

Jay Clawson stated, we’re just cutting down his square footage area that he’s got fenced in and actually it will be a little bit easier to contain the paper, it won’t have so much room for it to blow…

Steve Fisher stated, right.

Jay Clawson stated, over to a fence that is 100’ farther away from it.

Attorney Altman stated, well, the one concern that we had and we got it tonight is they want to landscape they want it back and being back will help that somewhat. We’re not requiring that he put a particular landscaping but he certainly would have the fence.

President Anderson stated, put in a whole new part back in the lagoon.

Attorney Altman stated, well, maybe so.

David Flora asked, is it possible we could put a 6’ fence across that area?

President Anderson asked, so that you could use that front…

David Flora stated, use that to park trucks in.

President Anderson asked, I have no objections to that, does anyone else? If they put it 5’ on that where it comes out?

David Scott asked, I would like to see….objection to do that?

President Anderson asked, if he had the gate to where he could back trucks in there, is that what you mean?

David Scott stated, yes.

President Anderson asked, gate it, as long as it was gated other than when you use it. Does anyone else have any problems with that?

Jay Clawson asked, he is still wanting to park trucks close to the highway there. Is that what you’re asking there?

David Flora stated, yes, it’s a good place to park trucks.

Don Ward stated, I won’t say anything…

Attorney Altman asked, Director Weaver, does that conform with the Ordinance, the trucks parked there, that are used for storage as well as moving in and out, there is a lot of storage there, it may or may not be moved there.

Director Weaver stated, I can’t think in the Ordinance where it addresses a situation like that Attorney Altman.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, if it was an accessory building or storage building of some kind, no it could not.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Jay Clawson stated, I think that if they are going to be locked up for long-term storage they should be farther away from the right-of-way of the road.

David Flora stated, I think that fence use to stay there, the fence that I have there that is next to the road, that fence would stay there just in case anything would…

Director Weaver stated, it’s too tall, it cannot stay there, it’s too tall.

David Flora asked, what?

Director Weaver stated, it’s too tall, the Ordinance will not let a fence be that close to the road if it’s over 4’ tall.

David Flora stated, it’s 4’ from the edge of my outside fence.

Attorney Altman stated, it’s the height.

Director Weaver stated, the height.

David Flora stated, it’s 4’ to the outside fence and it’s 6’ tall.

Director Weaver stated, but, it can’t be 6’ tall and be that close to the road right-of-way.

David Flora stated, it’s already there, do we have to take it out?

Attorney Altman stated, I think that it’s required to be taken out, yes.

Director Weaver stated, I think that it is too.

President Anderson stated, either that or try to get a variance on it.

Attorney Altman stated, or try to get a variance, but this Board has to approve that in the commitment and they are saying no.

President Anderson stated, the back fence can be 6’ tall.

David Flora stated, the trailers are 13’ or 14’ tall.

Attorney Altman stated, if they are trailers and they move in and out…

David Flora stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, and they are on the road and licensed and all…

David Flora stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, then they can be that close okay but, if they are storage at all, in other words they are not plated and they are just storage and then I would say that they can not be there and the Board’s requiring that the fence go down that’s closer than 80’ to the highway.

President Anderson stated, but, if you…

Attorney Altman stated, he can have a farm fence up there but he hasn’t, animals, fence or gate, they will let him have it there as long as the gate is shut.

President Anderson stated, as long as you have a 6’ gate back….

Attorney Altman stated, 80’ behind…

President Anderson stated, it’s suppose to be 4’ but you could try to get a variance from the Board of Zoning Appeals on that too, to keep that fence there.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The results of the vote to amend the commitment as agreed on with the previous rezoning #755 were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative.

Attorney Altman stated, so we have approval of the new commitment that was, remove the fence back to the 80’ right-of-way line and remove the rest of it

Don Ward stated, well, actually it could go back father than 80’ if you wanted to.

Attorney Altman stated, it could go back father than 80’…

Don Ward stated, so it would be, 80’ would be the minimum…

Attorney Altman stated, the minimum…

Don Ward stated, the minimum distance, it might pay him to go back and bring…out another way but back then, I could see where it would work probably going back in either to the North or the South. Probably the South.

Attorney Altman stated, I think right now that’s what he’s setting to do.

President Anderson asked, but, does that have to go anywhere besides us?

Attorney Altman stated, not unless he gets a variance and if he gets a variance, he has to come back in and get an approval through the Board.

Director Weaver stated, it does not have to go back to the County Commissioners.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think so.

Director Weaver stated, I didn’t think so either but I wanted to make sure.

President Anderson asked, is he suppose to get with you about, to write this commitment out?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, let’s get together Doc and we’ll put that together, okay?

David Flora stated, yes.

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#799 Kenneth E. Hinshaw; Owner, Evelyn Clemans; Applicant; Requesting to rezone from A-1 & B-2 to R-2 on part of Lot#33 and Lot #34. The property is located at Buffalo at 200 S. State Road 39.

President Anderson asked, is there anyone here representing this request? Do you want to state your name?

Kenneth Hinshaw stated, I’m Kenneth Hinshaw and Evelyn. What we are wanting to do, we’re A-1 and B-2, Howard had an auto repair shop there for several years. That’s all been since tore down and cleaned up, what is there now is just a concrete floor where it sat. We’re wanting to take out, there are two trailers there and a family room in-between the two, those trailers are like 30 years old, there getting in bad shape. We’re wanting to replace those with a newer trailer, in order to do that we have to get it rezoned from business A-1, B-2 to the residential zoning. I will tell you that was here a while back and, not long ago there was 2 electrical fires inside the wall because of the electrical, the electrical system is getting really bad. There are leaks in the house, she has some guttering up above the doorway that has some water on it, this is between the roof and there so, in order to get this newer trailer in there we need to get this rezoning.

President Anderson asked, are you going to pull the other two old trailers out?

Kenneth Hinshaw stated, yes, we’re in the process of tearing one…

President Anderson asked, are you going to use the family room that’s there?

Kenneth Hinshaw stated, no it’s coming down.

President Anderson asked, everything is coming down, just the new trailer going in?

Kenneth Hinshaw stated, it’s 14’ x 72’ trailer.

President Anderson asked, what year is it?

Kenneth Hinshaw stated, it’s a 1998, less than 10 years old.

Director Weaver stated, it has to be a 1981 or newer, unless it has inspection, or special exception process.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions about that request?

Jay Clawson stated, no.

President Anderson stated, okay, then let go ahead and vote.

With no further discussion the Board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.

Attorney Altman stated, this will be forwarded to the County Commissioners and that will be at the meeting next Monday morning at 8:30 in the morning, right here and they have the final say. Thank you.

Kenneth Hinshaw stated, thank you.

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President Anderson asked, next on the agenda would be subdivisions and they have both been tabled so, we don’t have those so the only thing left would be business, if anyone wants to leave, they can leave right now. Do you have any business?

Director Weaver asked, just, are there any questions on Mr. Altman’s claim that he submitted? I might explain, if you see on the one bill the conference with Kimberly Hornback and letter, that is, I have requested that Mr. Altman deal with her, so that is why we have this one there.

President Anderson asked, is there any other business? If not do I hear a…

Director Weaver stated, wait…

President Anderson stated, okay…

Director Weaver stated, I have given to you tonight a proposed amendment for you to look over, I put it on the agenda for the next meeting for us to look at it further.

Steve Fisher asked, I have a question about that, I didn’t realize, maybe I didn’t read it right the first time but, all height is measured from the curb side, from the curb height?

Director Weaver stated, the way that it is written right now.

Steve Fisher asked, what if we have a lot going up hill, you’re going to calculate someone’s roofline off of, shouldn’t it be off of the corner like the first block of the structure or something like that?

Director Weaver stated, I looked at Tippecanoe County’s and theirs states something similar to, I don’t know, something like the average between two corners or something of that nature.

Steve Fisher stated, I guess that it would be the highest point of a corner or something like that, that would the best description because I think that if you start doing curbside, curb heights…

Director Weaver stated, I agree with you.

Steve Fisher stated, and you have a lot that has an elevation of 3’ or 4’ I mean that’s easily done, I mean those houses on Bluff, if you think about it, North Bluff over here, you have curb height down here and then the buildings are…

Don Ward stated, are in line…

Steve Fisher stated, right, it’s something that…

Director Weaver stated, well, I’m going to put it to where we take a vote the next time that is something to give it some thought and figure out how we want to change that.

Steve Fisher stated, I had never paid attention to that, that was the current thing and I said, oh, that can’t be.

Don Ward stated, the top of the foundation…

Steve Fisher stated, but, then you’re…

Director Weaver stated, then you limit how tall that foundation can be…

Steve Fisher stated, yes, someone can make a foundation that sticks up out of the ground a ways, you know tri-level…

Don Ward stated, mine does, it sticks up about 3 blocks.

Attorney Altman stated, yes it does, mine does too.

Dennis Sterrett asked, so is this the height that we’re looking at now will be less than what it was?

Director Weaver stated, it’s not changing the maximum height at all, it’s just changing…

David Scott stated, where you measure from.

Director Weaver stated, where you measure to the maximum height.

Dennis Sterrett stated, that’s what I mean…

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, I don’t see how we can limit from the curb…

Steve Fisher stated, I wouldn’t want to.

Director Weaver asked, do you want me to go get Tippecanoe County’s and read that to you while we are discussing it? I have it lying on my desk.

Jay Clawson stated, I’ll give you 5 minutes.

Don Ward stated, I don’t see how that can even be legal.

Attorney Altman stated, oh, yes, it’s legal.

Director Weaver stated, let me go get that.

Don Ward asked, why?

Attorney Altman stated, it just is, if it’s a restriction that applies across the board, it’s possibly…

Don Ward stated, well, let’s say that you have an increase in height of 10’ above the curve, you couldn’t do much of anything.

Attorney Altman stated, you require them to have, essentially what you’re saying is on, under that sanario, you’re requiring a variance.

Jay Clawson stated, yes.

Dennis Sterrett stated, now we’re limiting…

Don Ward stated, yes, so you go in and get a variance.

Attorney Altman stated, you’re requiring a variance.

Don Ward asked, but, what if you refuse to give it to the person?

Attorney Altman stated, it’s really difficult, the problem is, any way that you peg it so something, it’s off, for a certain piece of ground it’s off because, what if just the opposite, the ground went down from there and we have places with that and you could have a really tall structure, the way that this is.

Don Ward asked, how about taking it to the adjacent structures?

Attorney Altman stated, again…

Dennis Sterrett stated, it will still get you in trouble.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, it’s still, can bite you one way or the other and…

Don Ward stated, I suppose that they can go get a variance then and there’s no real problem with it.

Attorney Altman stated, it’s variable and that is the release mechanism.

Don Ward stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, obviously you could have it, Director Weaver, what does it say.

Director Weaver stated, Tippecanoe County states, the vertical distance from the finished ground level at the wall of the building nearest and most parallel to the front line, measured as an average of the ground level at it’s two furthest corners to the top of the roof.

Don Ward stated, that’s pretty good. You wouldn’t have to ask for very many variances with that.

David Scott stated, that’s off of ground level right next to the house instead of a curb maybe 30’ away.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, exactly.

David Scott stated, and it would also restrict being up 6 blocks…

Attorney Altman stated, yes, and the guy might say, I need 6 blocks and then he has to go get a variance, if he really needed it because, there are probably areas that you may in fact…

Jay Clawson stated, right because there are some places…

Attorney Altman stated, go into the hill…

Jay Clawson stated, this lot could be totally flat or running at a very little contour and they, to get the street, they dug the street out 8’ or 10’ to get the contour of the street that they way that they wanted it too.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, so you know again, I think that it is important to…

Director Weaver stated, okay, I will revise it and I will send a new one out then in your packets.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

Dennis Sterrett asked, so, this is the way that it is now?

Director Weaver stated, it depends on the kind of roof that they have…

Dennis Sterrett stated, it would do it like this?

Director Weaver stated, no, just the opposite, we’re going right now on that type of a roof, we’re going to the average between peak and the rafters, we’re going to the middle…

Attorney Altman stated, the mean.

Director Weaver stated, what we want to do yes, what we want to do though is go to the peak basically.

Attorney Altman stated, the problem with that is you can have it just fine, people don’t understand…

Director Weaver stated, don’t understand.

Attorney Altman stated, then they go out and build…

Dennis Sterrett stated, like I don’t understand…

Director Weaver stated, yes…

Attorney Altman stated, if a surveyor don’t understand, I can understand why people don’t understand and that’s what we’re coming at, is Director Weaver is making it so that it’s, how high is it and most people understand that easier and quicker, so that’s why Denny.

President Anderson stated, so that’s the answer, how high is the house?

Attorney Altman asked, is there anything else Director Weaver?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t believe so.

Attorney Altman stated, I have a couple of things that I will add to it that are just more what I call bookkeeping and that when we got the Ordinance, they put the wrong codes in, like the special exception area…

Director Weaver stated, well, if you want to do that, there is a whole lot of spots that need fixed…

Attorney Altman stated, oh, I have been working on that …

Director Weaver stated, oh, I have a list…

Attorney Altman stated, but, they are just bookkeeping.

Director Weaver stated, this is the priority one though, it’s just causing too many problems, that’s why I wanted to get this one taken care of.

President Anderson stated, if we have no other business do I hear a motion?

Jay Clawson made a motion to adjourn.

David Scott seconded the motion.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission