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April 21, 2008 Tape # 008

The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:35 A.M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana, with Board Members Ronald Schmierer, John Heimlich and Steve Burton, Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Dennis Sterrett, Drainage Assistant Mary Sterrett and Secretary Jamie Rozzi in attendance.

Also in attendance were Engineer Todd Frauhiger, Mike Schuerich, and Charlie Mellon.


The first item on the agenda is approval of the minutes from the April 7, 2008 meeting. Board Member Burton moved to approve the minutes. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. Motion carried unanimously.


The second item on the agenda was Mar Casa Townhomes Drainage Review.


“Did you get approval contingent upon the results of today?” Board Member Burton asked.


“Yes, I did,” Mike Schuerich, representing Mar Casa Townhomes replied.


Surveyor Sterrett showed the drainage plans for this project.


Engineer Frauhiger explained, “Those are the drainage basins that are shown broken down in the drainage report. The orange lines are storm sewers that are proposed to go into the drainage basin. There will be two discharges into Lake Shafer. The request was made not to put in detention because it was right on the lake shore. They are using a method ‘Beat the Peak’ and I reviewed the thought process and it seems valid. Basically, it is saying that this water is going to get into the lake and downstream before the upstream watershed gets there…with being right on the lake there is really no problem with it. There are drop manholes in here because there is so much elevation difference between the area where the town homes are going to be built and the lake. The one interesting thing is that the report stated for the safety of boating and aesthetics that the pipes were going to come in three foot below the normal water surface elevation of the lake. I’m not sure if there is three foot. As far as the calculation go, it’s not going to matter, but I think you probably need to talk to Bob and figure out where you want to bring those pipes in. I’d just cut them off at the headwall and not take them out to the lake. Because of the elevation difference we are going to have pretty extreme velocity. They are using drop manholes to take some of the energy out, but the two pipes that go into the lake, if I remember correctly, are 24 inch pipes and we’ve got velocities of 9 to 10 feet per second…below what’s required by the ordinance, we don’t allow anything above 15 feet per second, but 10 feet per second is a fairly extreme velocity. So, there will be some turbulence where the pipes discharge. I’m not sure what type of dock you are thinking about, but you might want to try and keep them away from the pipes if you can. All the drainage calculations were fine for the storm sewer, the only thing, there is an open ravine that is going to be filled with two of the buildings…I checked the drainage areas upstream and there doesn’t appear to any surface water that is going to be impacted. The drainage way that goes through the existing resort area (owned by Mr. Scheurich) is going to be picked up and taken to the lake. The calculations are fine, the pipe sizing is fine, there are going to be some very decent velocities at the outlet pipes, but you probably need to check on how far down into the water surface elevation you want to discharge.”


“I take it that you will be able to find out a lot of that information starting Friday when they lower the lake because that is when we are going to burn the holes in for the pipes. Where he wanted 3 foot below the top of water to top of pipe…I measured, there was only 19 inches of water there. Now, down where the 12 inch goes I had about 28 inches of water right there. The channel runs there, so it gets deep very fast right along that wall,” Mr. Schuerich explained.


“So are you recommending approval?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


Engineer Frauhiger replied, “Yes, I am recommending approval.”


Board Member Burton so moved to approve the drainage plan for Mar Casa Townhomes. Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion. Motion carried unanimously.


The third item on the agenda was to review the Spray List for 2008. Surveyor Sterrett showed a county map with all of the ditches that are scheduled for spraying this year. The Julia Connor and the Vanatta Branch #1 are both in debt, but they both do need to be sprayed. The Julia Connor is in debt $2,800 and brings in $1,137.


“What is it going to cost?” asked Chairman Schmierer.


Surveyor Sterrett replied, “I believe we have been getting it done for 7 cents per foot.”


Chairman Schmierer continued, “I would say if you just cleaned it two years ago that it needs to be sprayed no matter what. Do we need to raise the assessment on that ditch?”


“No,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“See, you have to keep in mind that it was cleaned, but it wasn’t debrushed so even though we’ve cleaned it, where it’s going to grow up is where we cleaned it,” Board Member Burton explained.


“Is there a lot of brush on it?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“I don’t think so,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“My opinion on any ditch is we need to keep those upstarts down. They are easier to kill small than they are big,” Board Member Burton stated.


Chairman Schmierer stated, “I say you go ahead and do them even though they are going to be in debt.”


“Are these the only two that are in debt?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Yes, we took the Amelia Suits off because we need to do a maintenance modification on that. County Line Tiling/Excavating cleaned it on a friendly clean out for Milt Cole. There was just a section that needs to be sprayed, but that one had a lot of brush that Mr. Ezra took off. We had sprayed along the road because it was really coming up and I think we did a good kill on that,” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


You said you think that we need to do a maintenance modification on it?”
Chairman Schmierer asked.


“I think we do,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“Well, put it on the agenda so we can do a maintenance modification on it,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“There is also a tile on that that we are always repairing. They put a new one in running parallel to the old one. On a Reconstruction project they put a new tile in and the old tile is still carrying water. I guess we still repair the old tile, I don’t know,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


Chairman Schmierer replied, “I thought we put the new one in to get rid of the old one, that’s what I thought we did.”


“It is still carrying water,” Surveyor Sterrett added.


“When they put the new one in they put a catch basin up there at the north end of it, didn’t they?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Yeah, and there is still the old concrete catch basin there. It is still taking water too,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“I thought they took that tile out,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“Well, it’s still taking water,” Surveyor Sterrett added.


Surveyor Sterrett asked what the completion date for the spraying should be.


“If you get the bid packets out today you can accept them at the next meeting that is enough time. They should know by then how much they want to charge. Wouldn’t you think?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Do they normally go out and look at all them?” Board Member Burton asked.


Surveyor Sterrett replied, “Well, we have the same bidders and the list is similar to the same list as we had in 2005. I notice that last year we used the same list from 2004 and the bid was pretty close to being the same for 2004 and 2007, I think it was within dollars.”


“Well, we can try it,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“We could give them an extension if we had to. So, July 1st?” Surveyor Sterrett asked.


“I think so, don’t you Board Member Heimlich?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“Yes, I think so,” Board Member Heimlich replied.


“They could get to as many as possible and if there is one or two you can get done they could always come back and…” Board Member Burton suggested.


Board Member Heimlich moved to approve the Spray List for 2008. Board Member Burton seconded the motion. Motion carried unanimously.


Chairman Schmierer stated that he heard there had been several complaints on the leveling of spoil on the Esther Fraser project. Chairman Schmierer stated that Mr. Ezra was in attendance and needed to know what the problem is so he can take care of it.


“I don’t know what Board Member Heimlich’s conversation was with Mr. James…,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


Board Member Heimlich said, “He said that the brush was just buried in the spoil and so when it was leveled off the brush was out there. Apparently he had a pile of posts up on the ditch bank that he said got thrown into that and he had to pick those up all again.”


“Is this the first place off US 24?” Mr. Ezra asked.


“No, I farm that. It would be just south….that field south of US 24 that I farm goes way back in there. Then there is a fence line going south…from there to 100 would be Frank James’,” Board Member Heimlich explained.


“I don’t understand this picture. I don’t assume that you piled that dirt up there by that bridge,” Surveyor Sterrett.


“That is something that we pulled out afterwards when we went back…I need to go back and get that pile of dirt because we pulled that out the second time we came through there, it had washed out from around the edge of bridge down in there so I pulled that out and they disked all that other down so we didn’t go back over that again. I forgot that we left that there,” Mr. Ezra explained.


“Furrer has land across both sides and I think he has a bridge across there, but I don’t think there is a bridge across James’,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


See tape for continued discussion regarding issues with leveling spoil on the Esther Fraser.


“I picked up three pieces of a Mulberry tree and everything and couldn’t figure out what else he was talking about…but I didn’t go that far down,” Mr. Ezra stated.

Roger Wiese’s said there was a hump and that it would create a problem to plant.


“There is a hump there. I was leveling it at like 10 o’clock at night and my depth perception was a wrong at night. Ok, well that I will take care of…that’s not a problem. I understand that.”


“So you weren’t done on Wiese’s yet?” Board Member Heimlich asked.


Mr. Ezra replied, “Well, I thought I was done, but I will grant you that the last section when I went back through it was late at night and I was running in the dark and I couldn’t see it good enough.”


“Well, I told Mr. Wiese…we’ve never had any complaints on Mr. Ezra and I said I would talk to Surveyor Sterrett and see what we could find out. He may not be done, and Roger replied that he had been back twice,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“I also noticed that there is a surface drain coming into the ditch and you’ve got that spoil up there and there was already a hump there…could you knock the spoil off and spread it up or down from there?” Surveyor Sterrett asked.


“There is not a lot on that, there was a hump before,” Mr. Ezra stated.


“I know there was,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“What happens…and that’s what I need for you guys to tell me what I need to be doing. If you take that down and smear it around the mouth of the inlet…,” Mr. Ezra stated.


“No, I don’t mean that,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“I think what Surveyor Sterrett is saying is to move it down several hundred feet in either direction if you can,” Board Member Burton explained.


“Mr. James had talked about a hump too, but he was more emphatic about the…you said there wasn’t any brush…he said there was brush buried in the spoil…and this pile of posts. The other issue was his surveyor stake,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“Corner post he calls it…and we went down there and looked at it and if it’s what we think it is…The only corner post I can remember is a plain steel fence post that was leaning over when we got there,” Mr. Ezra stated.


“He said this was a white stake. He called it a surveyor stake,” Board Member Heimlich replied.


“Well, it’s nothing you can’t handle Mr. Ezra,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


Mr. Ezra replied, “I just wish people would call me and talk to me because if I’m the one that did it then I need to know the facts so I can fix it. I can’t fix it if I don’t know the facts.”


“I told Mr. Wiese that we have never had complaints with Mr. Ezra before. I just told Surveyor Sterrett that he needed to be aware of it,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


The next item on the ditch was the Owen Denton Ditch.


Surveyor Sterrett explained, “This ditch is located up by Lee, Indiana, northwest of Monon. It runs into Jasper County and it is not on maintenance. The Denton Culp is a ditch running into the Owen Denton that is on maintenance. Rochelle Enterprises called the Surveyor’s office and said that Jasper County is putting their portion of the Owen Denton ditch on maintenance, but they weren’t including White County. They were not going to assess anyone in White County.”


Chairman Schmierer asked, “I wonder why they didn’t call us to have a joint meeting to do it?”

“I don’t know. Rochelle wants to put White County’s portion on maintenance. I looked at it and drew out the watershed. I gave him a petition and then I got to looking over north of Wolcott and it drains into the Owen Denton which is most north of Wolcott. I don’t think we can put those people north of Wolcott on maintenance with the drain up there (Monon Township),” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


“If they have the watershed on their side in there, then this should be on,” Board Member Heimlich stated.


“For Jasper County…,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“Well, it should be joint, but…,” Board Member Heimlich said.


“What I’m saying is if I get a petition to put 2.5 miles (Monon Township) on maintenance, how can we include these people down here (Princeton Township)?” Surveyor Sterrett.


“I wouldn’t think you could,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“They are going to say you cleaning that ditch up there will do me no good,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“Have you talked to Jasper County on this?” asked Board Member Heimlich.


“Yes, several times. They said they don’t want to include the White County landowners,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


See tape for more discussion regarding the Owen Denton ditch.


“In this area in Princeton Township is there any open drainage in there?” Board Member Heimlich asked.


“Yes, but I don’t have it marked on the map,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


“Our drains that drain into that from White County are the Stoller and the Hoagland,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“I don’t think you can include those people down in Wolcott though, but if Rochelle wants to get a petition for up there (Monon Township) I don’t see anything wrong with it,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“In order to put a drain on maintenance they need a petition, correct?” Surveyor Sterrett asked.


“Yes,” Attorney Loy replied.


“So it’s never been on maintenance?” Board Member Heimlich asked.


“No, we did a reconstruction on it in 1957. So it’s a regulated drain,” Surveyor Sterrett explained.


“It should be,” Attorney Loy stated.


Surveyor Sterrett had some issues to discuss with the Victor Tile. He explained, “He (Greg Jacobs) has it opened up and there is a swale in there. It’s not taking water. It is taking water, but…”


Board Member Burton explained, “The pictures aren’t going to show it, but when I was up there on Thursday or Friday you can see where the water is bubbling out of the ground at the broken tile. It’s not bubbling out of the ground, it’s bubbling up in under the water. Also, it was brought to my attention that there are two ponds between Hick’s Gas and Brookston and the one at Hick’s Gas has not gone down much, but the one closer to town that never goes down has reduced in size. Does that water go east?”


Chairman Schmierer stated, “The one at Hick’s Gas goes east and, according to Maxwell, that got damaged when they put the popcorn plant across the road.”


“And the one closer to town?” Board Member Burton stated.


“It goes southwest,” Chairman Schmierer replied.


“It was brought to my attention that once he messed this up that pond along 43 has gone down,” Board Member Burton stated.


“I don’t think that pond goes that way. It goes southwest because I’m hooked into that with that old car wash,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


Surveyor Sterrett showed several photos of the site. Surveyor Sterrett said, “Engineer Frauhiger and I stopped other there last Friday. There is the tile where he opened up and put rip-rap around and the water was a foot over that. So, the water is coming from Kent’s and going into this tile…so something is wrong between where it’s dug and the catch basin, which is about 200 feet.”


Engineer Frauhiger stated, “There was water flowing in the catch basin maybe two inches.”


“It is going through the catch basin, but there is a lot of stone in it,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


See tape for more discussion regarding the Victor Tile.


“There is the tile coming from the elevator. It is right there by where he had that rock dam and it’s underwater,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“I think….he dug a trench perpendicular to the tile and he’s got it exposed and then just downstream that is where it was bubbling out. You can see the water bubbling through the water,” Engineer Frauhiger explained.


“Isn’t he supposed to put the tile back, Surveyor Sterrett?” Chairman Schmierer asked.


“We allowed him to put a swale in there temporarily until he submitted a drainage plan,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“Yeah, it’s not going to flow. Right in this area he dug a trench across the tile and he had the tile exposed coming in from the adjoining property owners and going out, but they are both underwater by a foot and a half. Just downstream is where you saw it boiling out. His swale he dug all the way down through there is…three feet of water...and every place the tile is exposed you can see it in the water, but the water isn’t moving. So, the first big rain storm we get this property owner will have a huge mess because none of his tile is going to drain,” Engineer Frauhiger explained.


Surveyor Sterrett stated, “The reason there is water in here is because the outlet is no good. It’s opened up…”


Engineer Frauhiger said, “Well, some place between here and here (pointing) it could be crushed, it could be clogged…”


“Could you use a jetter on it?” Mr. Ezra asked.


“He has messed it up so bad that I don’t think it’s worth the money,” Board Member Burton stated.


Chairman Schmierer added, “He has driven tri-axles across it and everything.”


“I also think in this trench up here, the downstream side…you could see the tile but it was full of garbage too. It wasn’t a clear tile by any stretch of the imagination,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“It has always been wet back in there anyway,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


Engineer Frauhiger stated, “This section needs opened up or the whole thing is going to stay flooded. Do we want to tell him to get that opened up?”


“Sure,” Attorney Loy stated.


“I think we should write him a letter giving him x amount of time to get it opened up and, if not…He had some black pipe laying out there, but it’s gone now,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


“So the guidance you are looking for is?” Board Member Burton asked.


“Should we send him a letter?” Surveyor Sterrett asked.


“Send him a letter and tell him to get it fixed,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“Send it certified,” Attorney Loy added.


“In my last conversation with Mr. Jacobs, he stated that he had a drainage plan on the way ‘I’ll have it to you’ he said, and I mentioned that he could fix it or we could fix it and send him the bill,” Board Member Burton stated.


“We’ve got hours accumulated with this thing and we don’t even have a drainage plan yet,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


Surveyor Sterrett gave the board members a copy of a letter that was received from Mr. Don Ward. (The letter is regarding the tile north of 100 North on Allen, Northeast corner of VeraSun.)


Board Member Heimlich explained, “I guess my question was whether what they were planning on doing was necessary, or whether we already had a drainage easement there. He was going to have a legal description for the drainage easement...”


Board Member Burton stated, “We’ve been there before. I thought you said there was a tile across there, but it isn’t a county tile.”


“Surveyor Sterrett stated, “It is not a county tile. We looked at all of our maps and didn’t find any maintenance tile. Maybe the county highway got an easement sometime, I don’t know because it drains a side ditch.”


“Maybe we should talk to Steve (Brooke),” Board Member Burton said.


“I talked to Steve (Brooke), he didn’t know if there was an easement across there,” Surveyor Sterrett said.


“So it is about 460 feet across here from the road to the ditch and there is no way to get the water out of here I guess. I guess that is the question, what are we going to do with the water?” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“We went out and looked at that. It’s just a low spot, there is no way to get it out without making a connection to the ditch,” Engineer Frauhiger stated.


Surveyor Sterrett stated, “We think this tile goes to the ditch, but we’re not sure. I didn’t walk out there to see if there was an outlet.”


Board Member Heimlich stated, “Our question was whether or not it was a county drain and had a legal easement already.”


“No, there is no regulated tile there,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


Chairman Schmierer asked if anyone else had anything for the Drainage Board.


Mr. Ezra had a question regarding a work order that he had been sent. He explained, “You know the ditch that no one can reach that we need to bring the sides back up down there by Round Grove…”


“Vanatta…,” Surveyor Sterrett said.


“Yeah…we dug that ditch out last year or the year before…where that one section slides back in we dug that out three times when we dug the ditch and it has slid back in again because there is water just pouring through the banks. We need to something with that, I understand but I would be grabbing straws because I don’t know positively, but I think the only way to make that thing hold would be to dig and lay a tile from the ditch and come back across to stop the water from coming out. If we just keep digging that out you’re going to have a lake right there. I know there has been 4 feet taken off each side so that means 8 foot wider than it should be already and it just isn’t backing off,” Mr. Ezra stated.


“It is right out there where the Vanatta empties into the Pine. It has washed out on the east side,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“Somehow the water has to be stopped from coming through that bank to have any luck having the bank stay,” Mr. Ezra explained.


“Like he said, there is water coming out of the slopes,” Surveyor Sterrett stated.


“I have never done this; that is why I wanted to bring it up. I can’t see why it won’t work, but I have never done it to guarantee that it will work,” Mr. Ezra stated.


“What would you do, put a catch basin in back up in the field a ways?” asked Chairman Schmierer.


Mr. Ezra explained, “No, what I am saying is to drain the water down in the dirt. So, it needs to be a minimum of four feet deep, I’d like to see it five or six feet deep and come up to where the bank is still good and come out into the right-of-way and get about 30 feet out away from the ditch bank and then cut across in front of it and just lay a tile that will suck the water out right there so that it will dry that ground up so it can firm up. It’s extra cost, that’s why I’m asking.”


“And that is probably the problem is that there is no field tile around there so it’s just…,” Board Member Burton asked.


“What are you talking about running a tile parallel with the water and then run it down into the ditch?” Surveyor Sterrett asked.


“Yes,” Mr. Ezra replied.


“How much do you think it would be?” Surveyor Sterrett asked.


“It may be $600 or $700,” Mr. Ezra replied.


“We’ll take that under advisement and you guys go out and take a look at it, Board Member Burton said he would go with you,” Chairman Schmierer stated.


“Ok,” Surveyor Sterrett replied.


Chairman Schmierer asked if there was anything further for the Drainage Board. Chairman Schmierer then adjourned the meeting.