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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, February 10, 2003, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, David Scott, Don Ward, Gregory Bossaer, Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Larry Dill, John & Terri Raines, Lenard Nuest, Charles B. Roth, Larry Stonebraker, Ray Hanslow, and Nelsen Sorenson.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Jay Clawson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the December 9, 2002, and January 13, 2003 meeting. Motion was seconded and carried unanimously.

President Anderson stated, #810 that is listed on the agenda has been withdrawn. Those of you that are here for that may leave if you want too.

Charles Roth asked, with that being withdrawn has he been given notice, officially written notice of potential of violation?

President Anderson stated, yes, he has.

Charles Roth asked, what is the time frame on that now with that petition being withdrawn? What is the time frame on that now?

President Anderson stated, you were given 15 days.

Charles Roth asked, is that 15 days from now or 15 days from the time of the petition?

President Anderson asked, was he sent a letter? How many days was he given?

Director Weaver stated, he was given 10 days to contact my office. He came in and filed his rezoning request. I believe something was going to have to be decided tonight.

President Anderson asked, how many days would we normally give to remove this?

Director Weaver stated, it depends on the type of violation on how many days we give them.

President Anderson asked, okay with his type of violation?

Director Weaver stated, I would say we would give them 10 days at the most.

Don Ward asked, will the fine be automatic?

Director Weaver stated, I believe it would be.

David Rosenbarger asked, how much are we at liberty to ask questions without an attorney?

President Anderson stated, we can’t. We will probably decided tonight after we are in business then on what to do. If you want to stay for that you can.

President Anderson stated, the first order of business will be the continuation of reorganization and we have to elect a lawyer tonight to represent our group. We’ve got 2 petitions Larry Dill and Jerry Altman. We are going to do this by ballot. Everyone can go ahead and vote.

The Board members are voting at this time for an attorney.

President Anderson stated, 8 votes were cast and 8 votes were to keep Attorney Altman as the attorney.

****

#282 John J. & Teresa E. Raines; Requesting approval of a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Leaning Pine on .631 of an acre. The property is located West of Monticello directly East of 1190 Hanawalt Road.

President Anderson asked, is there anyone here representing this?

John Raines stated, John Raines.

President Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions on this?

John Raines stated, we just want to divided off and one section for one house and have someone build on it.

President Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions on this?

Jay Clawson asked, did all of the Commissioners read the letter in regards to the drainage.

It states in here that it is a drainage easement and they had the things stating that they could not build any closer 25’ from……

Director Weaver stated, they have gone through a drainage variance to amend what is on your plat. It shows 75’. It has been amended to 25’.

Jay Clawson stated, right, but that means a lot to us hearing this. Right now there really the way it is draw there really no buildable space on this lot.

Director Weaver stated, he also has received drainage approval. We have had a couple of inquiries from neighbors regarding this request. No statement against the request, just inquiries.

Jay Clawson asked, is the pole structure going to be back behind the lot?

John Raines stated, the pole barn is completely behind the lot.

Attorney Altman stated, Diann for the record the White County drainage has been obtained such that the 75’ has been reduced to 25’ and therefore we have an area 75’ x 170’ area that is buildable on this lot with that variance.

Director Weaver stated, yes, that is correct.

Attorney Altman stated, once again for the record. I know that it not precisely it, but it is a buildable area lot.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

President Anderson stated, so standard subdivision applies. Does anyone else have any questions?

Dennis Sterrett asked, did George get you that document?

John Raines stated, yes he did.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Primary Approval Request for a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Leaning Pine located in Union Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Leaning Pine located in Union Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

****

#808 Lenard & Julie Nuest; The property is located on 3.017 acres, Northwest of Monticello at 2579 E. 375 N. Tabled from January 13, 2003 meeting.

Violation: Doing a business without being properly zoned.

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to I-1.

President Anderson asked, is there anyone here representing this request?

Lenard Nuest stated, I am.

President Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions on this request?

Attorney Altman stated, a couple of things, obviously part of what this was tabled for is the written commitment a written copy is in the file. It was prepared by myself it is in the file properly signed. The applicants paid it for. I think this is here for our approval and review. I don’t see in the file where a written notice was sent to him about the violation.

Director Weaver stated, that is why he is here. Its for a violation.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand that. We talked about violations and so forth. What I’m saying out there, there were questions from the President on what can we do and what should we do about this, and maybe-other violations. I’m just sort of laying the groundwork of what if you are going to have a violation you need to give everybody notice.

Director Weaver stated, he was given notice. That is what I’m telling you he was given notice.

Attorney Altman stated, a written notice. I did not see it in the file.

Director Weaver stated, yes, that is why he is here.

Attorney Altman asked, is that it?

President Anderson stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, okay it is a letter dated November 18, 2002. He was given 10 days to file and cease and he filed within that time?

Director Weaver stated, yes he did.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions on this? We did get the commitment on the other.

Attorney Altman stated, yes we did. He is reading the commitment to the Commissioners at this time.

Greg Bossaer asked, did you have your building approved by the State Building Commissioners office? You are now a public building.

David Rosenbarger stated, it does need to be inspected to make sure it meets all the requirements. We held the guy on 39 accountable for that when he wanted to rezone to a commercial structure. Need to make sure it is suitable for a manufacturing facility.

Attorney Altman stated, the truth is, yes you can if it meets the inspections. You can proceed with an approval and the inspection being correct and meeting all of the standards required for a building to be used for things like that.

President Anderson stated, or he brings it into compliance.

Attorney Altman stated, yes if he brings it into compliance.

David Rosenbarger stated, I know you still do the trash for the Beach. You don’t run your business. I notice that you have your truck out there. You don’t haul during the winter do you?

Len Nuest stated, no

David Rosenbarger asked, it is just stored there when the Beach is closed.

Len Nuest stated, yes.

David Rosenbarger stated, I just wanted to make sure you weren’t going to be opening and running a trash removal out of that business.

David Rosenbarger stated, on the commitment on 1b it says all business storage and production activities need to be conducted solely inside the building. Then you go down to states in the event of failure to apply we have the power to automatically revoke it back to A-1. My biggest question on that is where do we stand first time a neighbor drives by and sees 6 or 7 pallets setting in the driveway. That would be in violation. Would are enforcement officer or one of us…….

Attorney Altman stated, obvious it could be a violation. Whether it is significant enough to in fact trigger that it depends.

David Rosenbarger stated, no we are getting back in to the enforcing issue.

Attorney Altman stated, that is right because it will always be that way.

David Rosenbarger stated, well the way I’m reading 1b is that all of the business storage and production activities.

Attorney Altman stated, and I thought that is what we said at the last meeting.

David Rosenbarger stated, I understand, but my other concern is that was his commitment was to keep everything inside.

Attorney Altman stated, and if it doesn’t, you are wondering…………

David Rosenbarger stated, 6 months or a year from now somebody drives by there and says there is 5 pallets setting in the driveway up against the building. Is he automatically going to be reverted back to A-1 and cease?

Attorney Altman stated, he would have to, quite frankly he would be able to defend himself in a cease and assist petition. That would be a matter that would be taken ultimately to Board of Zoning Appeals and then to the Circuit Court has to whether that triggers that kind of activity.

David Rosenbarger stated, then the commitment really doesn’t mean a whole lot.

Attorney Altman stated, yes it does, but its like always it has to be enforced. It gives sort of the structure, then as always somebody has to make a decision whether that violated or not. Then if the director or who ever the director is at that time decides yes it did, then they would take it to The Board of Zoning Appeals for enforcement.

President Anderson stated, well first they need to take it to him.

Attorney Altman stated, well yes of course.

David Rosenbarger stated, this does not say anything about the Board of Zoning Appeals. It says the …….

Attorney Altman stated, but that is what the law would require to do.

David Rosenbarger stated, well I guess I’m confused because this is not what I’m reading. It says the APC would be entitled to have the zoning of the above described real estate revert back to the A-1.

President Anderson stated, well if we did that then where would it go then.

Attorney Altman stated, then it would go the BZA to arbitrate.

David Rosenbarger stated, I’m just trying to understand and I know what he is saying what he wants to do, but I don’t like the enforcement issue, if this becomes an issue.

Attorney Altman stated, it always is and it always will be. Your example of 6 pallets if……

David Rosenbarger stated, it could be one. Here it doesn’t distinguish it.

??? stated, it’s actually impossible for him to operate a business there without him being outside there. You can’t take pallets in and out.

Len Nuest stated, my whole operation is inside. When a truck comes in, it goes in to the building. Anyone who drives by there can see that.

Attorney Altman stated, that is what I understood he said it was all in there.

Don Ward stated, you are satisfied with that.

David Rosenbarger stated, well I can see if he takes something off his truck by the end of the day everything would be put away inside. There is always a reasonable time you might have something setting out for a half-hour or so and then by the time it gets in, he not actually in the process of manufacturing or storing outside.

Attorney Altman stated, as I understood, again there is always some gray area in everything. He said he is doing that and that is why I drew it up that way.

David Rosenbarger stated, so anything in I-1 can go in as long as they do it inside the building.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, as longs as it is being done in the building.

President Anderson asked, are there anymore questions about this request? Is there anyone in the audience with a question?

Director Weaver asked, are we going to give him a time frame to get that building in compliance?

Jay Clawson stated, it would take him 2 or 3 months to get that passed in the state. To get a state release on that.

The Board is discussing what type of time frame to give him.

David Rosenbarger stated, if you started from scratch and you had this zoned I-1 and you wanted to build a building, you would have to send the plans to the State and get what is called a release. They would approve your plans and what we are asking you to do is that you send the blue prints for your building to the State and have them stamp it that the building is suitable to the Indiana Code, and that way it is on file. That way if you ever sell that building, they know that building won’t. It is for your own good.

Len Nuest stated, I had the company that actually sent me the materials to build it. I had certain guidelines I had to go by. All I need to do then is send that blue print to the State, they will approve that blue print, and then I will bring it back to you.

Don Ward stated, I would recommend that you take the stuff and go down to the administrative building council in Indianapolis, and they will talk to you about what you will need. I would make a special trip right off. When you get down there, take your stuff in and they have their own building. Look in the phone book and you will find it, and they will tell you what the situation is. They will run through it, figure the volume, and stuff like that. You can tell them what you have done. I think it will be an as built set of plans. Do you have rest rooms in it?

Len Nuest stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, You would have to have a plumbing plan, wiring plan. They will tell you what you need. That is the best way to do this. Then you know you are starting out right.

You need to give him a time to get this done.

Attorney Altman asked, you give us a reasonable time frame?

Don Ward stated, 6 months.

Attorney Altman stated, as I understand it now the application is now with 2 contingency. One is the approval with the written commitment, and the other one is to get the proper release from the State Building inspector. Is that the correct place Don?

Don Ward stated, the Administrative Building Council.

Director Weaver asked, Len, did you receive your copy that I mailed to you.

Len Nuest stated, yes.

Director Weaver stated, there is a typographic error on the original first page. We have gotten that corrected and a copy was sent to Len.

Without further discussion the Board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 1 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.

Attorney Altman stated, you need to get everything done that Don Ward suggested as soon as possible.

****

#810 Robert Mathew; The property is located on .680 of an acre, Southeast of Brookston on the South side of Creekside Court.

Violation: Storing business equipment in storage shed without being properly zoned.

Request: He is requesting to rezone from A-1 to I-2.

President Anderson stated, #810 was withdrawn, so we need to go on to the business. We can not discuss this since he is not here.

Attorney Altman stated, he is not here and I guess……

David Rosenbarger asked, my question is, is he in violation on this?

Attorney Altman asked, do we know if he is still using it the way he was Diann?

Director Weaver stated, my understanding that he is still storing the equipment inside. His intention is to pull them in the fall and pull them out in the spring.

Attorney Altman stated, that is certainly what he said.

Charles Roth stated, just for your information it’s just for storage and that is the only thing he is doing. We can’t quite understand why there is least one or two trucks parked there all day, continuously day after day. If all they are doing is storing his equipment.

Dave Scott asked, are they big trucks or what types of trucks are they?

Charles Roth stated, regular pickup trucks that bring workers in. They are working in there all day. If this is just a storage building why would they have workers working there all day, if it is just storage?

Director Weaver stated, I do know that there has been a septic system put in the facility. I suspect that there has been a rest room put in.

Charles Roth stated, there has been no permit for plumbing.

Director Weaver stated, there has not been any permits issued for the structure. I have had the building inspector go down and look at the structure this fall. To the best of my knowledge there has been nothing done. I couldn’t issue a permit because they are in violation for the use.

President Anderson asked, how long has he had a permit for what ever he is doing there?

Director Weaver stated, I think the audience could answer that better then I can.

Charles Roth stated, the barn itself is an old barn. It has been there. We moved into the community in 76 and the barn was there at that point.

David Rosenbarger asked, when was the remodeling done?

Charles Roth stated, the remodeling was done in the summer. This past summer because the same contractor was doing it that built the same facility I have across from the property. I know when it was being done. It was completed roughly around the first of October.

David Rosenbarger asked, how long has he been storing his equipment?

Charles Roth stated, the first time I noticed the big equipment being moved in was shortly after they completed the remodeling of the building. There was a big paving unit that moved in at that point. I know it came out some point about a month later and there was some more equipment moved in after that.

David Rosenbarger asked, when was the subdivision withdrawn?

Director Weaver stated, it was the December meeting.

David Rosenbarger stated, it was in the December meeting that he admitted that he was running a business.

Director Weaver stated, yes, and that he was storing equipment.

Charles Roth stated, he was storing and maintaining the equipment in there.

President Anderson stated, that was when he wanted to subdivide the property.

Charles Roth stated, you told him that he was in violation.

Director Weaver stated, right, and shortly after that we sent out a letter to them.

Attorney Altman stated, and then in his way he tried to comply.

Director Weaver stated, right, his attempt to comply was by filing a rezoning.

Attorney Altman stated, and then he withdrew it. When did he withdraw it?

Director Weaver stated, on the 4th.

President Anderson asked, did he give a reason why?

David Rosenbarger stated, Diann you stated that storing of business equipment, is the same as business use in the December meeting.

Director Weaver stated, yes, that is the way we have handled it in the past.

Don Ward stated, I think we have done that before in the past.

David Rosenbarger stated, he did say in the December meeting that he had pavers, and grinders stored in there.

Director Weaver stated, that would not classify as personal storage.

President Anderson asked, do any of the other Commissioners have any questions?

The Board is currently discussing this issue.

President Anderson stated, we have already sent him one letter right.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

President Anderson stated, we probably should send him another letter now that he has withdrawn everything. Give him 10 days to cease and desist.

Attorney Altman stated, I think you Director needs to go and inspect it and see if he has complied and if he hasn’t, then a notice to quit.

President Anderson stated, so that would be first and then post something.

Jay Clawson stated, you need to get something started and then get an up date at the next meeting.

Attorney Altman stated, and if he is still doing it and it sounds like he is, he is in violation and a fine needs to be imposed.

Don Ward stated, the thing is he knows that he has been in violation that is the problem. Then he withdrew the petition.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess I’m just walking this through and give him the notice. Then inspect it, and if he still is I suggest a fine imposed and a notice to cease and desist be posted on the property.

David Rosenbarger stated, so you are saying give him 10 days to get it out of there.

President Anderson stated, she would immediately do a site inspection and an automatic fine.

Attorney Altman stated, I think so, just so that we know and maybe not even give him the 10 days. I don’t know I’m just suggesting that. You guys have to decide that.

President Anderson stated, we need to decide on the fine and if it is not gone within 10 days, then impose the fine.

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing I’m saying is you need to understand. That is why I’m proposing this as a structure. I don’t have any problem going the other way either.

David Rosenbarger stated, we have sent him that letter stating. I mean we have a copy of it in the file.

The Board is having a discussion at this time.

President Anderson asked, when could you get out there?

Director Weaver stated, in a couple of days.

Charles Roth stated, thank you very much.

President Anderson asked, is there any more business?

David Rosenbarger stated, I have one question.

Director Weaver stated, yes, I still have one.

David Rosenbarger stated, Diann sent Dave out there, this guy put in a septic tank. He got the permit from the Health department and never got a permit from us and Dave is not doing anything about it. Is there something we can do to get Dave to do it?

Attorney Altman stated, that is the County Commissioners.

David Rosenbarger asked, can we go to the County Commissioners on this?

Attorney Altman stated, let's put it this way I think you can say what ever you want, but I think the Commissioners decide that.

David Rosenbarger stated, well that is what I wanted to know.

Jay Clawson stated, well if you wanted to use this as personal and wants to have a bathroom in it, does he need a building permit.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

David Rosenbarger stated, he got a health permit, but he did not get a building permit to put in the plumbing. This is the same thing as Williamson building without a building permit.

David Rosenbarger stated, back to the Williamson thing, that was a building permit. So how did you end up with that? Did Dave give that to you?

Director Weaver stated, I turned that over to Jerry because it is also a setback violation. It was not being pursued as a building violation so I was pursuing it as a setback violation.

David Rosenbarger asked, so the Commissioners are the ones who would pursue a building permit.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess they are the ones who would decide. It’s like me, you want something done and you tell me. I work for you, so I would do that, and he works for the Commissioners and therefore……….

Director Weaver stated, his violations are to go through the County attorney.

President Anderson asked, how fast is she?

Director Weaver stated, actually the County attorney is now George Loy.

David Rosenbarger stated, the truth is there is a lot going on that is now above board here.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t know about that, but something’s have not been pushed.

David Rosenbarger stated, right, that is what I mean.

Director Weaver stated, he did go and post a stop work order on Williamson, and then it did not go any farther.

Attorney Altman stated, I did get a phone call from her and we are pushing on that, and if they don’t get in right away, I will be in court by next Friday.

Director Weaver stated, back to Mathews, if I go and inspect this and they do have their equipment there. Then I need to send out a letter telling them to cease, desist, and fined $500.

Attorney Altman stated, I would post it right there on the building.

??? stated, Jerry run this by me one more time. If she goes down there and there is equipment in there. They are in violation, so they are automatically fined $500.

Attorney Altman stated, by that last order.

Director Weaver stated, you were not here. That was the ordinance I sent to you last month. The board did adopt it.

Attorney Altman stated, that is the $500 fine that I’m talking about right now.

???? stated, it sounds like he is going to get hit with a $500 fine.

David Rosenbarger stated, possibly more.

President Anderson asked, so are we going to give him a daily fine or just the $500 fine and see what he does?

Attorney Altman stated, let's do that, plus a remove cease & desist and then report back. Quite frankly if he doesn’t do something right away, there will be another one in court.

Don Ward asked, what if he wants to come back through area plan again?

Attorney Altman stated, you mean like for a rezoning or something. I guess he can. He can try.

Don Ward stated, so he could have that time then until we act on it.

Jay Clawson stated, in certain situations would a commitment not be an order, if someone had a storage building that was more accessible off of a good road that they wouldn’t charge. They could bring their equipment and set it in the wintertime as long as there was no activity. Leave it there for 4 or 5 months and then in the springtime haul it out. It’s just like a boat rental.

Director Weaver stated, a boat rental still has to have business zoning.

David Rosenbarger stated, right, but with a commitment it can be revoked. I don’t see on a decent road where this would be a problem. When they are done paving as long as they obey the frost and stuff like that. What is the difference if they have a combine or a roller and a paver. I mean if it’s inside with the door shut.

Don Ward stated, if we rezone this with a commitment. It is considered business, then he has to get his building approved. As long as he is doing maintenance in there. I don’t see why a pickup is bothering them.

The board is having a discussion.

President Anderson asked, is there any other questions?

Director Weaver stated, yes. I sent an amendment to you on table 2. This goes along with our maximum height requirement on accessory buildings. I have changed the maximum height from 15’ to 17’. The red figures are the new figures that I have added to this table. I tried to discuss this with Dave and he really did not have anything to say about it. I put these figures down and had him look at them. I asked for some input from him. I can’t say we really agreed on this because we really did not discuss this.

Jay Clawson stated, the A-1 and the City served by the City streets. If there is still property that you have it will be. You would recommend a 60’ setback if the City Street, instead of a county road serves it.

Director Weaver stated, I was just following what we had done in the past. That red figures….

Jay Clawson stated, say they were zeros, I mean…..

Director Weaver stated, they were blanks. We need to fill these blanks in.

David Rosenbarger stated, in the Williamson deal they found a lope hole. There are no setbacks on a city street.

Director Weaver stated, correct there was no figure there.

David Rosenbarger stated, we went after him for the setbacks on that addition he did and the attorney came back and said there are no setbacks on the City Street and we don’t need a setback variance. Because they are zero’s.

Jay Clawson stated, so because they were blank the deemed that a zero. I caught that the other day because the school cooperation is asking to build a canopy to gas trucks and what do you deem that structure. Is it an accessory building? What is all of the gas station ones at?

Director Weaver stated, they usually have variances.

David Rosenbarger stated, there is one more here. Diann brought it to my attention because it was in Brookston. One of its fronts is a state highway. Diann was telling me that in the past White County always looked at a street in town was a city street. I don’t know how it is in all of the other towns, but in Brookston 43 and State Road 18 are State Highways. Are they interpreting that wrong?

Director Weaver stated, if they are in the city limits we treat them as a city street.

David Rosenbarger stated, shouldn’t we legally those being on a state highway be the 80’.

Jay Clawson stated, well it would help to expand the highway.

The board is having a discussion.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, I’m certainly willing to enforce it this way and that is what we are going to do. I think what Diann has added will help the interoperation maybe more to the 32’. I’m going to proceed based on what Dave is saying on the Williamson one and proceed. I think this is a step maybe more conventional by completing this row.

Jay Clawson stated, I agree it needs to be done. It was up to whom ever wanted to interpret. It goes to the line above. Who is to say that it doesn’t go the line below? If it is a city street, if Monticello wanted to deem it a 50’ that is what we want or Brookston wants it something else.

President Anderson asked, is there anything else?

Director Weaver stated, that is all I had.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission