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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, May 12, 2003, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, David Rosenbarger, David Scott, Stephen Fisher, Don Ward, Scott Kyburz, Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: R. Joe Roach, Eugene B. Lucas, Viola Fleenor, Sandra Brown, Greg Jacobs, Herbert Hunt, David & Betty Downey, Richard Suray, Robert Teumer, Lisa Werliner, Mick Yoder, Don Tribbett, Roland Klockow, Melissa Cunningham, Ingrid Landis, Jerry Bonnell, Craig Kelley, Harry DuVuall, Dale Bartlett, Judy Bartlett, Brad Smock, R. Daniel Hanenkratt, Sean Chiszar, Renee & George Cleefman, Linda L. Nurmann, Mike & Carol Mikesell, Joyce Kelley, Vicky Truax, Jan Hall, Betsy Hall, Ed Grist, and Christenia Grist.

The meeting was called to order by Vice President David Rosenbarger and roll call was taken. Vice President David Rosenbarger made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the April 14, 2003 meeting. The Board voted unanimously to approve the minutes.

****

#815 Robert Teumer; The property is located on 2.571 acres, Northeast of Buffalo, the last house at the East end of Red Maple Court on the North side of the road. This was tabled from the April 14, 2003 meeting.

Violation: None

Request: He is requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-2.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing this?

Please state your name.

Robert Teumer, stated, I’m Robert Teumer. I was told to get an attorney and I was suppose to be here again tonight I guess.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do any of the commissioners have any questions?

Director Weaver stated, we wanted a commitment for the drainage and we have not received anything on that.

Attorney Altman stated, this is the one that the neighbors had some concerns, and he also had some concerns about the drainage.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is your lawyer coming tonight?

Robert Teumer stated, I don’t know if she is coming or what. She said she would have it in your office by 10 days before. I tried to call her this morning and I did not get any response.

Attorney Altman stated, I was just over at my office and checked my memos and notes and I have not received anything.

Robert Teumer stated, nothing.

Attorney Altman stated, nothing at all. I’m sorry to tell you that.

Robert Teumer stated, I tried to get a hold of her today and I did not get any response. She was to call me back and she never called my back.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that we, unfortunately this did not get to me because of that the best thing to do would be to table it until next month and let's both ride her a little harder.

Robert Teumer stated, she was out of town trying to get a Seeing Eye dog. She was to be back on the 30th, I was there, and she said she would have it in your office. Why it did not get there I do not know.

Attorney Altman stated, I did not get it.

Jay Clawson stated, I make a motion to table it until next month.

Don Ward seconded the motion.

Attorney Altman stated, this is table until the June 9, 2003 meeting at 7:30 right here.

Robert Teumer stated, thank you.

****

#817 Hanenkratt Grain Co. Inc.; The property is located on Lots 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66 and part of the Northwest Southeast, 28-27-2, 155 ½’ x 50’ and 143’ x 100’, in the Town of Idaville at 104 & 106 E. South Railroad Street and 302, 304, 306 S. East Cross Street. This was tabled from the April 14, 2003 meeting.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from B-2 and R-2 to I-2.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone representing Hanenkratt Grain Co.?

Brad Smock stated, I’m Brad Smock.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do the Commissioners have any questions?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know if the Commissioners remember, but part of this property did go through rezoning once before, we did approve it. It went on to the County Commissioners they also approved it. That approval was later than revoked. It is coming back to you tonight.

Brad Smock stated, I’d like to make a comment on that real quick. Since that time we have purchased the church that is beside us also, there was an auction for the church beside it and that is also now part of the property that we are trying to rezone. I believe the problem before was the square footage. Now having the church beside it has eliminated that problem.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, was that part of a lawsuit?

Director Weaver stated, no, there was no lawsuit.

Brad Smock stated, there was no lawsuit.

Attorney Altman stated, I think part of the issue was the size of the lot and what you are saying, is that with the addition of this land you have increased the track to be consistent with what the ordinance requires.

Brad Smock stated, yes, we have increased it. I believe there is 4 lots of the church. Don’t quote me on that, but we have increased it enough to make the difference that you are requiring.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, so it does meet the minimum requirements?

Director Weaver stated, yes, it does meet the requirements. There is an alley dividing this property. It’s on two different streets and then an alley in between. That alley has not been vacated. Is that correct?

Brad Smock stated, I could not answer that one honestly. I don’t know.

Director Weaver stated, it was not included in the legal description, so I’m assuming that it was not.

Brad Smock stated, there is one alley that.. are you talking North, South, or East, West.

Director Weaver stated, East to West.

Brad Smock stated, okay. I can not answer that one.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, does that affect the lot size if the alley is there?

Director Weaver stated, the alley is not included in the lot size.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, so this section is big enough, and this section is big enough.

Director Weaver stated, I could not tell you that, I did not calculate them separately.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, with the alley it does make it two separate lot sizes, if the alley is not vacated. You don’t think that has a bearing on the minimum.

Attorney Altman stated, no on the minimum, has a bearing on the whole variance, excuse me the whole rezoning. That is what you folks have to decide.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, does it make a difference if it is a street

Attorney Altman stated, no I do not think so. It’s the amount of ground that proposed to be rezoned.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, my question would be is the total square footage for the proposed lot does the alley make that two different lots when it comes to square footage.

Attorney Altman stated, I do not think so.

Don Ward asked, so do you intend to vacate the alley?

Brad Smock asked, do we intend to vacate the alley? I guess at this point, I do not know. We have this option you are saying.

Don Ward stated, you always have that option.

Brad Smock stated, okay, actually on that alley there would only be one, if you are looking at it Pat Coffing owns the little house right beside it and other than that the only access that the alley would provide would be stuff that we would own.

Dennis Sterrett asked, no utilities down there that you know of.

Brad Smock stated, yes, NIPSCO has power lines above it I do believe.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, I believe we have a comment from the audience.

Diann has pictures here.

Someone from the audience is asking if we have pictures or not.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, yes you can bring them up, but they will have to stay with the board. Please state your name.

Craig Kelley stated, I’m Craig Kelley, I’m an Idaville resident. The lot size is not big enough and for the people who were not here, I also have all of the newspaper articles that refer to the problems that we had back when this all started three years ago. If anybody is interested in the Town’s petition against it or any of that, I have the newspaper articles.

At this time they are looking at the pictures that Craig Kelley handed out.

Brad Smock stated, that picture you are looking at right now is of two garages that we own now.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, these two here?

Brad Smock stated, yes.

Craig Kelley stated, to the right side of that alley is the house that sets there.

There is discussion among the board at this time, and Craig Kelley is passing out copies of articles.

Craig Kelley stated, it is my understanding that the minimum requirement was 2 acres. There is not 2 acres on this property. Actually that land between the church which is built right on the corner and those houses is no bigger than my back yard. Pictures appear to look longer than it is. When you are standing there, there is no way its that big. As stated the lots are not joined.

There is a discussion among the board and they are all looking at new additional pictures with Craig Kelley and Brad Smock.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, just a minutes Brad. Did you have another comment.

Craig Kelley stated, yes on that picture if you notice there would be a lot more people here, but no body really knew about it. The only sign as you can see in the picture that I passed around one sign for rezoning stuck between a tree and a truck that they parked along the road. None of the other lots had signs for rezoning on them.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, just one is required.

Director Weaver stated, only one is required, plus we did send out notification through the mail to all of the adjacent property owners.

Craig Kelley stated, well the point is a lot of people didn’t know and this effects the whole town, not just the people right next door. It effects the whole town.

Brad Smock stated, our business hours are 8:00 to 5:00 Monday through Friday and the only time that the truck was setting outside is and if you see the picture it might be parked beside the sign, but not in front of it. It was there every day after 5:00 and before 8:00 and all weekend long and how many weekends it was out there. We just pull it our across the road. The reason we put the sign there because it is in the middle of the property.

Director Weaver stated, I have a picture of the sign and it is not blocked.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there anymore comments?

Brad Smock stated, the only comment I was going to say that may help you guys, I guess and I don’t know how you are looking at the picture, but as you can see it is kind of L shaped. The two houses, the one I’m looking at is where the North is pointing to me. The L shape, okay the two houses would be on the West end of the L, and then the rest is the property from the church. The main purpose, I guess, would be for an office and scales to be over on the church property. The back part would end up more or less just being a staging area for a semi to be able to turn around, a truck or a gravity wagon what ever it may be to have grain on it to be able to get on or off of the scales. I don’t know if that helps clarify kind of like the geography of the thing. If there are any other questions, I would be glad to answer them, if anything I can help explain.

???? stated, one of the complaints a few years ago was the flies that where flying around. Are you doing any more to stop that?

Brad Smock stated, yes the bee wings actually it would be the same stuff as last year, it would be the same equipment that, but this year needless to say it happened somebody called the IDM probably stemming from this I would say. They came and gave us an inspection and said that we were in regulations on everything and there was nothing they couldn’t find anything that could write us up on because we are in compliance with everything that needs to be done. I have that at the office that says everything checks out and was released at the office. The only reason they did come and took pictures and they came during the heat of harvest was just because they have to follow up on any complaint that they get. I can get that information, and the girls name so you can call on who came and did it.

Steve Fisher asked, why are we doing it to I instead of an A-1.

Director Weaver stated, they are going compatible with their other property. Their other property is zoned industrial.

Steve Fisher stated, I was wondering if industrial was what you were asking for, but we were looking up you can do grain elevator in agriculture zoning also.

Brad Smock stated, oh you can. You can put an office or anything in the A-1.

Steve Fisher stated, it says grain elevator.

Director Weaver stated, they have to have at least an acre to do that.

Brad Smock stated, then part of it also is the church as you see that picture there too. The church agreement when we purchased the church was it had to be torn down within two years. That church will no longer exist that was part of the deal made with the congregation. If there were that many people in Idaville that did not want it they probably wouldn’t have agreed to sell the church to us.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are they any more questions from the commissioners?

Anybody else in the audience? Please stand up and state your name, please.

Harry DuVall stated, I’m Harry DuVall. I live right on the corner where this is. I’ve got a grain elevator to my North and to my West and I really don’t want it to go to the South. I’m concerned about the traffic issue. There will be more semi’s and stuff in and if we do have families in town. We need to think about that too. Semi’s wide turns you can not see and the roads are not very wide for two semi’s to get by. They are not wide enough for two big grain trucks to get by. That is one of my big concerns. I live right next door on the same block, North of the church across the street. That is my biggest concern.

Brad Smock stated, I guess the only follow up I have on that one is just if we build a bigger scale, that is the only main outlet to 24. Main Street for all of the farms South and then all of the farms North have to go by the Firehouse there in Idaville anyway. The semis are going to be there whether we’re there or not. That is today’s agriculture, all farmers have semis, so they have got to get to 24 because that is their main outlet. That is my only comment on that. I guess it doesn’t matter what we do here, there is still going to be semi traffic, unless we tell all the farmers that they can’t have them anymore and that isn’t going to happen either.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there any more comments?

Jerry Bonnell stated, I’m Jerry Bonnell and I’ve lived in Idaville all my life and yeah he is right there is a lot of traffic through there and they come flying through there, which is not all of his, but some of them are. They have over there all of these semi’s going to be. They are going to be backing, turning, and trying to make curves and everything and these little kids walk up to the edge of the sidewalk they are not going to be able to see. They go flying through that town and its not only his business, but if you put scales and everything down town. He is wanting bigger scales and get bigger semi’s in there, so you are going to get these bigger semi’s right in the middle of town. He put up those grain bins back in 1986 or so and they weren’t really in compliance to the ordinance. They are setting right on the road, so when they are filling their grain trucks they are setting right on the road. They are already half blocking the road and you get all these other semi’s coming through there and you got two or three semi’s trying to make it through there. You got one setting on the side road and two passing you got three semi’s trying to make it through town. These kids are walking out there to go to school and everything. They told us the last time if we were so concerned about our kids getting run maybe we ought to keep them off the road and I don’t think that was to good of a thing to say. They should be considerate of our kids. My kids are grown, my kids they were told not to get up on that road because if you get semis flying down that road as fast as they can they couldn’t hear a kid if they hit it anyway. They would run over it with 16 wheels and keep on going. It’s just really dangerous. I think it would be a bad deal to put it in the center of town. I think he should go on the out skirts if he wants to expand then he could expand all he wants. The Commissioners they didn’t want to listen to anything we had to say. They already had it in their minds they were going to put grain bins all over Idaville and there was nothing we were going to do about it. They told us to be quite and set down. I don’t think it is benefiting our town a bit. What he’s got right now is fine, but when you go adding more grain bins and bigger set of scales, getting more semi’s down there, and that town is full of kids. The kids with no supervision are running wild. That road Main street with no stops and when they cross the rail road checks 2 or 3 miles to go they do not slow down a bit.

Brad Smock stated, I guess my only comments on that also would be first of all: you know as well as I do there is no body who wants to injure a kid or run over a kid or any of that stuff. As far as driving slow, there are other trucks beside our trucks that do drive through town. As far as us just moving to the country and starting all over and doing this. Our business is fine the size it is now. Well I’m glad somebody never told Sam Wal-Mart, or what ever Wallman, that his business was fine the size it is now because look what we have today. Not that we will ever be at that point, but that is growth and that is business. You have got to expand with the needs that the way business is going you have got to expand to stay competitive in the business or else you are not in the business any longer.

Gary Barbour asked, do you ship anything by rail?

Brad Smock stated, no we do not, we do not have the capability shipping anything by rail.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, does anybody else have something to add that we have not heard?

Craig Kelley stated, I want to add something else. Back when this happened before the church was in consideration when this was going to be zoned. He says it is added now, but when they came out it was in consideration with that church all along even 3 years ago when this started and they know it. If you go back to the records you will see the County Commissioners actually went out there and looked at the property and the church was in consideration. It hadn’t been added to it. I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of that.

Attorney Altman stated, it has been added new now.

Craig Kelley stated, well its added new now, but it was added then. They were considering it.

Attorney Altman stated, it was not before us at the time.

Craig Kelley stated, it was considered you could read the articles in it where it was here.

Attorney Altman stated, maybe, but it is legally changed sir, and that does make a difference.

Craig Kelley stated, my dispute still is that it does not meet the minimum requirements for this.

Brad Smock stated, as far as the church we just purchased that maybe not even 6 months ago, so as far as that being in the records three years ago. It might have been what okay if we could do this, this would be a good fit, but like I say again I guess it was a public auction, so we did not know at the time that we would end up buying it. We would not have known that three years ago either. That is the reason the congregation had a public auction so if we ended up buying it there wouldn’t be any of this flash back, let's say or how ever you want to put it because it was everybody had their right to do what they felt needed to do.

Gary Barbour asked, is that rail line used at all?

Brad Smock stated, yes, but it was used quite a bit this fall because ADM’s dryer was broken and they shipped a lot of corn. I’d say maybe once a day would be pushing it. During harvest it was probably once a day and now it is probably once every two or three days maybe. I do know recently they’ve gone through there and put ties in and worked on it the other day. I don’t know if their plan is to utilize it more, but I would say two or three times a week probably on general.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there any more questions?

Don Ward asked, is there anything you can do or have you thought about levitating some of the arguments they have about traffic. I don’t know what he is talking about being half way out in the street and all of that kind of stuff.

Brad Smock stated, a lot of what you are hearing is probably a version of exaggeration, but I’ll show you on this one. Right now our office and scales are right here and now we weigh all of the trucks off of 24. They have to come down this road and turn down here and our grain dump is right there. What we want to do is put the scales here and semis, trucks, trailers, or what ever it’s obviously makes more sense to me because you are right there. Instead of having to come down here and then go down that street.

Don Ward asked, are you going to close that scale?

Brad Smock stated, that would be the plan eventually, whether we get that all done right now, I doubt it.

They are currently looking at a map of where they are going to put the scale and office.

Brad Smock stated, our game plan was to have someone from Purdue come and might try to engineer the best way for the traffic flow to go. Anyway just get someone else then us to say okay this would be good. We want to get someone who can actually say okay.

Going over the map again with Brad Smock on where the traffic was going and the buildings.

Jerry Bonnell stated, He saying there is a exaggeration on the pictures, I’d like to see them. Do you have the pictures of Hanenkratt on the main road.

The board is giving the pictures to Jerry Bonnell to look at.

Jerry Bonnell stated, the ones they did back in 1986 this is his lot and he has corn bins out here by the main street that goes through town, not the highway the main street. Those corn bins where the county highway stops and their property stops you know like a sidewalk, those corn bins sitting right out there by the side walks, so if a truck is setting there filling he is setting on the county highway. If you have another semi coming this way and another coming this way which they do all day long you have three semi’s.

They are looking at the pictures again and Jerry Bonnell is talking to some of the members.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there anymore questions, if not let's vote.

Attorney Altman stated, we have received on the record 4 photographs and a file with newspaper clippings in there from 2002.

Without further discussion the board voted.

Attorney Altman stated, the votes were as follows: 7 affirmative and 1 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners with a positive recommendation on Monday morning at 8:30.

The actual vote results were as follows: 6 affirmative and 2 negative.

****

#821 Richard J. & Sandra L. Suray Revocable Trust; The property is located on Lot Number One (1) in Breezy Hill Subdivision West of Lowe’s Bridge at 3838 E. Bailey Road.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from B-2 to L-1 to bring the property into

compliance with the White County Zoning Ordinance.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there someone representing this?

 

Richard Suray stated, Richard Suray.

 

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, Diann have you had any comments on this?

 

Director Weaver stated, yes, this went through a subdivision and went through the area plan office. If I remember correctly it was zoned B-2 at the time it was subdivided and did have residence on it at that time. The ordinance no longer allows for residences in business zoning. Therefore he wants to rezone this so it is in compliance with a home on the property, so he will be able to make some improvements.

 

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, so there is only one house on there right now?

 

Director Weaver stated, the best I can recall there are two cottages.

 

Richard Suray stated, correct. Hopefully both of those will be going and put up just one residence.

 

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, so is it subdivided for the rezoning or is it one tract.

 

Director Weaver stated, it is one lot with two cottages on it.

 

Richard Suray stated, I think one of the sheds was the bait shop and it has been relocated.

 

Attorney Altman asked, so are you proposing to remove both cottages and put a residence on this lot if I is rezoned?

 

Richard Suray stated, yes, it is going to be a sequence of operation there. I have to take down some of it and build the house and then the rest of it will all come down.

 

Attorney Altman stated, and this is a part of your conditions for the rezoning.

 

Richard Suray stated, yes definitely.

 

Attorney Altman stated, if you do that you would be obliged to do so within or the zoning would be null and void.

 

Richard Suray stated, what kind of time because it is going to be at least a year because I’m not retired yet. As soon as I retire I’m moving down here and that is when we are starting.

 

Attorney Altman stated, you need to put a two year limitation on that. Is that reasonable?

 

Richard Suray stated, yes that is reasonable.

 

Director Weaver asked, are we going to have a commitment with this?

 

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

 

Richard Suray stated, I already have the drawings on this.

 

Attorney Altman stated, we should have a written commitment on this.

 

Steve Fisher stated, as long as going out and doing something there, he has started it correct.

 

Attorney Altman stated, the Commissioners will want to see us and have an approved a written commitment, so the simplest thing to do would be is have him get a written commitment. Table this and get a written commitment of the time frame you are talking about removal of these two cottages and putting the other on. Then get it approved here by the board and then on to the County Commissioners.

 

Richard Suray stated, it is already on one of the drawings that has been turned into you. The sequence of procedure here for removal and construction. There is a site plan that I gave Diann.

That was on March 28.

 

There is a discussion among the board members.

 

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, how can we, there are still two buildings on there. How do even with a commitment, how is that commitment be written to enforce. We have to get it back to one. Whether you do it in two years or what happens if he doesn’t? We’ve gotten into this before.

 

There is a discussion among the board members.

 

Director Weaver stated, the commitment has to read that he is removing at least one of the homes.

 

Richard Suray stated, I have a survey here already made which shows the new residence. This is a new one that was just recently made showing the new residence and everything on it. I don’t know if that will help you or not.

 

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, it could only be one residence.

 

Richard Suray stated, this will be overlapping

 

Director Weaver asked, is that the survey for your variance?

 

Richard Suray stated, yes.

 

Director Weaver stated, he is planning on requesting a variance for the new home as well.

 

Richard Suray stated, I’m planning on doing that in August.

 

Attorney Altman stated, the simplest thing to do is table it for a commitment that he removes one and gets back to one residence.

 

Jay Clawson asked, do you understand what he is asking you to do?

 

Richard Suray stated, well I have to remove one in order to build the house.

 

Attorney Altman stated, I agree.

 

Richard Suray stated, it even shows there or it is overlapping and then I’m in trouble there.

 

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, but to be able to rezone it the building has to be going. We can’t rezone it and have to residence on it. So that it was the commitment states that you will do that in a certain amount of time.

 

Attorney Altman stated, since you have the time we are just going to take a moment to get the paper work done ahead of time.

 

Richard Suray stated, that’s fine, I don’t have a problem with that.

 

Jay Clawson stated, it will require you to come back to next months meeting

 

Richard Suray stated, I can’t come next month, I’m from Chicago, its difficult for me to even be here today.

 

Jay Clawson stated, we can do it the following month, and you can set that up with Diann.

 

Attorney Altman stated, so that would be in July.

 

Richard Suray asked, that can not be set up with the contingent that this is all going to happen in a certain amount of time.

 

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, that is what the commitment is for.

 

Richard Suray stated, I’m not planning on taking this down by July. I have it rented out right now until May of next year and after that is when I’m going to start my part.

 

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, the commitment will state when the house will be down. It is a legal document when it will be done. Then the board and the Commissioners can go off of that.

 

Steve Fisher stated, that way if something happens to you or if you try to sell we have that commitment in place that, that is going to happen.

 

Richard Suray stated, that is fine, I can’t build my house on it.

 

Attorney Altman stated, it will be heard July 14 at 7:30 right here.

 

Richard Suray stated, I will certainly try.

 

Jay Clawson stated, sir you can have someone represent you. If you send the commitment to our lawyer, and he states it is okay if you have someone come here for you, like a neighbor, or a friend or if your attorney draws up the papers then he can represent you.

 

Director Weaver stated, you would need to put your sign back up on the property.

 

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, this is tabled until July meeting.

 

Attorney Altman stated, have you or your lawyer get hold of me right way.

 

Richard Suray stated, what exactly do you want.

 

Attorney Altman stated, it needs to say that you are removing one of the cottages and when.

 

Richard Suray stated, I understand.

 

****

#822 Eugene B. Lucas & Viola M. Fleenor; The property is located on .77 of an acre just South of the Town of Monon at 7150 N. Railroad Street.

Violation: They have placed 2 sheds on the property without a building permit.

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-2 to have a zoning that better fits

the size of the lot.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing this?

Eugene Lucas stated, I’m Eugene Lucas.

Director Weaver stated, Mr. Lucas is trying to clear up the violation that is on his property and in order to get the sheds to where we can issue a permit on them. He wants to leave them where they are located. The reason for the rezoning is to change the setbacks and at the same time it better fits the property and it will also bring the sheds into compliance so we can issue a building permit for them.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, what is around him.

Director Weaver stated, he is just South of the restaurant on the South edge of Monon.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, so he is the last property into the state right away.

Director Weaver stated, there is a parking lot to the North of him, railroad to the East of him, and there is an adjacent property to South of him, and then farm ground to the West of him.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, what is the property zoned at?

Director Weaver stated, it is zoned A-1.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do any of the commissioners have any questions?

Anyone in the audience have any questions?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners next Monday morning at 8:30 a.m.

****

#284 Irvin Bowie; Requesting approval of a 3 lot subdivision to be known as GB Acres on 3.012 acres. The property is located North of Monticello, East of County Road 300 East on the South side of Stahl Road. This was tabled from the April 14, 2003 meeting.

Director Weaver stated, the reason this was tabled was not all of the adjacent property owners were notified, so we did re-notified and there was no one here representing the request.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing this.

Sandy Brown stated, I’m Sandy Brown.

Director Weaver asked, Sandy are you with a Real Estate Company?

Sandy Brown stated, yes, Stefaniak Realty.

Attorney Altman asked, does this meet the subdivision ordinance Diann?

The roadway is in there at 50’.

Director Weaver stated, the roadway is existing.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand, but the access to the property is I call it the roadway and it probably isn’t, its still at the size minimum that we would require.

The board is currently looking at the maps and plats of this subdivision.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do any of the commissioners have any questions, or comments?

Director Weaver stated, this has received drainage approval.

Attorney Altman stated, we did receive a letter by fax and I’m going to go over parts of that. My daughter Vicki & I own a house directly across the street from the area that Mr. Bowie is seeking to develop. Be advised that there is no reason why we were not notified as we bought our house from Mr. Bowie just last year in May of 2002. Yesterday, Saturday, April 13, 2003 we were talking to a neighbor who told us about the hearing. He indicated the hearing was to be Tuesday, April 15. When I called the Area Plan today, I was told that the meeting was this evening. I could not make plans at this late date to attend the hearing tonight.

I will be brief with this statement we would like read before the hearing. The three acres across the street Mr. Bowie’s property is currently a wooded area with two vary unsightly out buildings and a very stagnate pond. The pond is probably a marvelous breeding ground for mesquites and the out building will soon fall down, we do like the wooded area. We have no objections of houses providing the houses should be constructed like the rest of the homes in the area, not trailers or modular homes. Some of the trees should be saved and it should be very clear to new homebuilders that they do not have any access to the lake across the street, which is through our property.

Attorney Altman stated, as to the home we do not control how they are constructed, just the number and where. The trees often like to be saved, but we can not control that either our ordinance does not allow it. We don’t allow any body goes across anybody else’s property. Disapproving or approving of this subdivision wouldn’t change that situation at all.

Director Weaver stated, we did late this afternoon receive a copy of the restrictions for this subdivision. You do have a copy of that with your information. We also did make sure that Grace Kelley was notified of this meeting.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there anymore questions? Let's vote on the primary application then.

The Primary Approval Request for a 3 lot subdivision to be known as GB Acres located in North of Monticello in Monon Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as GB Acres located in Monon Township, North of Monticello, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

****

#285 George Cleefman Jr.; Requesting approval of a 3 lot subdivision to be known as Cedar Hill on 4.542 acres. The property is located West of Reynolds, on the Southeast corner of County Road 100 N. and County Road 300 W. This was tabled from the April 14, 2003 meeting.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing this?

Renee Cleefman stated, I’m Renee Cleefman. I don’t understand how this got 4.542 acres because it is like 7.something acres.

Director Weaver stated, this is the part that is being subdivided. It does not include the whole tract. On their information I have a note down there on their analysis the lots are coming out of the 7.542 acres tract with the proposal being 4.542.

Renee Cleefman stated, would Mr. Ward or Mr. Fisher want a picture, the over the pictures. Do they have the pictures.

Director Weaver stated, yes, did you receive a copy of this. There is a couple in that file.

The board is currently going through the files looking for some pictures that some of the board did not get. There is discussion among them. They are discussing the pictures and who got them and who did not get them. Renee Cleefman is talking to some of the board and other board members are discussing this between themselves. Everyone is talking at once.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, George is the crib on the North side of the right away the 40’ drive?

George Cleefman stated, right now its not.

Renee Cleefman stated, the crib is right here.

Everyone is currently looking at pictures and talking at the same time.

David Rosenbarger and Director Weaver are looking at pictures with Renee Cleefman.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there anymore questions from the commissioners?

Is there anyone in the audience with questions?

Jay Clawson asked, Diann are we okay with the 40’ road right away?

Director Weaver stated, we knew that the barn was…..

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, we knew the barn, did you see the aerial picture, and it is on the North edge of the right away.

Renee Cleefman asked, Jay do you need to see what building they are talking about?

Jay Clawson stated, no I understand.

Attorney Altman stated, it’s the 40’ that we are concerned about rather than the 50’.

There is discussion among the board regarding the 40’ and the part of the lot that is not part of the road, its part of the lot.

Gary Barbour stated, we have done this before with someone else and the last time they had 30’ on here, and we told them that they had to have a 50’ and it was denied because it wasn’t wide enough. Even though you are not calling it a roadway or a driveway, it is still access to lot two. What we had determined before was that it had to be 50’, no we have gone from 30’ to 40’ here, and I guess I’m in agreement with what Jay is saying because we denied it before on 40’. Same thing, same type of property, but we denied it. I guess I’m going to be in agreement, we need to go 50’, if we are going to do it.

There is discussion among the board regarding the 50’ road right away and where it should go. They are looking at pictures and maps again. They are discussing the width of the road and the access to the property.

Renee Cleefman stated, there is room to get a fire truck in there.

Gary Barbour stated, I’m not disputing any of that. What I’m saying we have as a board, denied it to other people, where they had 40’ access.

Jay Clawson stated, it is a rule in our book that it has to be 50’ right away, even though there is a road through the back, if you guys sold it. Say if your kid builds a home and then they sold it to someone you don’t like back there and you decided, this is all hypothetical, but those things do happen more times than not to our board. If we did not leave enough access then we would be in trouble later on down the road.

George Cleefman asked, can we take 10’ off of lot 1?

Jay Clawson stated, yes, or 5’ off of.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t think so because then you are cutting into the width of the lot and I think it is at its minimum now.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, this is showing 150’

Director Weaver stated, and I think that is the smallest it can be. That lot can not go any smaller.

Jay Clawson asked, could you take that 10’ through that crib there? Because they are not going to use that anyway until something happens.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, well, is the corncrib in line with lot 1 or lot 2?

George Cleefman stated, lot 2.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, then they could put 10’ to the North of the lane. It would be L shape. See what I’m saying. You are not going to take anything away from lot 1,but you are going to add 10’ x 328’ long and stop at the beginning and just make it a full size lot too.

Do you see what I’m saying George, you don’t have to go the full length. Just in line and that would give you all of the standards there.

Jay Clawson asked, is the crib that far back?

Renee Cleefman stated, yes

Attorney Altman stated, I think we need to table this until that gets done.

Gary Barbour stated, as a board member I apologize, but as we have done in the past, I can’t …

Renee Cleefman stated, the old house use to set there and….

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, George do you want to table this.

Attorney Altman stated, he just did.

Renee Cleefman stated, what are we responsible for trying to accomplish in the next 30 days.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, make that 40’ to 10’ against lot 1.

Renee Cleeman stated, Mr. Milligan’s job.

Director Weaver stated, even though the corncrib is going to encroach on that, they want you to go ahead and improve that to the 10’.

Renee Cleefman stated, that is fine, but how do I accomplish trying to get this done through Jim Milligan.

Director Weaver stated, I can call him.

David Scott asked, is the 50’ right away rule is that a written rule?

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, yes.

David Scott asked, where, I mean when people come in and try to figure out how to draw, I don’t like seeing these people time after time after time, either they come to the meetings and you give them something else to come up with next time. That has got to quit.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, we didn’t do that.

Gary Barbour stated, I was under the understanding at that last meeting that we had set this at 50’.

Jay Clawson stated, we did ask for the 50’ the last time, and Jim should have drawn it at the 50’or told them that is a requirement. He has been doing that or done enough of these over the course of time over the last 8 years, since we have had this new book. He should know that when he submits one that, the other one he did for GB Acres was 50’ and that is what we ask for every meeting.

David Scott asked, are you talking about Mr. Milligan?

Jay Clawson stated, yes, he did the same one for them, I mean he drew both of them.

Attorney Altman stated, page 16 of the subdivision ordinance the road right away is 50’.

This is the road right away for this residence. Therefore you must meet the street access. It is the street access and that is why we go to that.

****

#286 Twin Lakes Regional Sewer District; Requesting approval of a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Twin Lakes Booster #5 on .58 of an acre. The property is located North of Monticello on the Southwest corner of County Road 400 East and West Shafer Drive.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, anyone representing Twin Lakes Regional?

Don Tribbett, stated, I’m Don Tribbett from Logansport. I’m the attorney for the Twin Lakes Regional Sewer District. I have with me this evening Roland Klockow, he is the engineer for the project. You may or may not have seen in the newspaper the Sewer district is getting ready to go to bid on a new project. Referring to it as the Norway or Phase I project, which essentially does Norway, and then everything that has not been picked up on the West side of Shafer to Lowe’s Bridge, and also across Lowe’s Bridge a small area on the East side of Shafer. The connection with that project, the engineer has determined that there is a need for a booster station and so what we are wanting to do is acquire .58 acres from the SFLECC and we have an agreement with them for the .58 acres. We learned that we need to go through the subdivision process, since we are splitting off from a larger tract. I can not answer technical questions, but I think Roland can to the extent if you have any questions. I’m sure he will be glad to answer those. There is one issue that is not fully resolve and I apologize for that, but that is the issue of drainage we have not yet received drainage approval, although, I did speak with Todd Frauhiger this afternoon and explained the situation to him. He indicated to me that he was quite confident that there will not be a drainage problem because the impervious area that we will create will be so small that we will be exempted. We do need to file with him a request for that exemption, he indicated that if we do that, he could get that on the agenda or the Drainage Boards as early as next week. He felt quite confident that we would not have any problems. So I guess what we are asking for you to do tonight to approve this, subject to the drainage approval. We do recognize that we have to have that approval or waiver, so with that having been said. I would entertain any questions that the board may have.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, does the board have any questions?

The Board is currently looking at the maps and survey. The board is discussing if they had done one like this in the past.

Someone from the audience stated that there would be a pump house on this location.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, I just want to make sure this is going to meet the setbacks and not have to have a variance.

Dennis Sterrett stated, it looks like they are.

Director Weaver stated, not on this one.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, it’s 150’ square roughly.

Dennis Sterrett stated, well here it’s 100’.

Director Weaver stated , not for an accessory building.

Dennis Sterrett stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, we have given it accessory building setbacks. This does not have any restriction on it. We could put restrictions in there that it could not be anything more, if the board wishes to do that. It’s strictly up to the board. In your packet you received on their reports, and it does state right there that the purpose is for the utilities.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, I know what they are going to do, I’m just looking at the future.

Director Weaver stated, I know that is why I thought you might want something as a restriction.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there anymore comments or questions?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Primary Approval Request for a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Twin Lakes Booster #5 located in Union Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Twin Lakes Booster #5 located in Union Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

Attorney Altman stated, this is based on getting drainage approval.

****

#287 Twin Lakes Regional Sewer District; Requesting approval of a 1 subdivision to be known as Transfer Station “A” on 0.025. The property is located East of Airport Road on the South Side of Luse Road before Oak Springs Court.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing this?

Don Tribbett stated, I’m Don Tribbett. I represent the Twin Lakes Sewer District and I have Mr. Klockow with me. This one is a little different, there will be no structure on this one. This is the one is on a very small lot. They are booster pumps, as I understand it. There will be three grinder pumps in the ground, all you will see is the caps of the grinder pumps. This is actually on the sewer project that was just completed. The pump manufacture did suggest these additional pumps because it would enhance the longevity of the pumps on down.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, if you want to ask a question, please state your name.

Ed Grist stated, my name is Ed Grist. I live about three houses from his proposed project. Our concerns are that is there going to be a building like on the other and I hear him say no. We want to know the purpose of this project and if anything going to be above ground and be unsightly for our neighborhood.

Roland Klockow stated, that is one of the primary concerns of Mr. Hubbard’s as property owner, and we have indicated because these are just the grinder units, I don’t know if you have seen them, but anyway the only that you will see will be that little green cap and it is our intent to a little landscaping around it. There will be the electrical panel there and we do intend to set it back. The only thing is the red light will have to be visible from the road, but the panel and everything else we are going to try to landscape around it so it is not an eye soar.

Ed Grist stated, there are already some underground pumps there.

Roland Klockow stated, the purpose on down below there is quite an elevation from the lake level up to that point. The number of grinder pumps that are down below will pump up into this station and be re-pumped from there. That is why call it a transfer station and its main purpose it extends the longevity of all of the other pumps.

Jan Hall stated, I’m Jan Hall. I’m a property owner down there too. My concern is the grinder pumps are almost flush with the ground, but they do have these unsightly posts with these electrical boxes that stick out of the ground. If you have ever been by Richey Park or been down by Pearson’s Lakewood it looks like a deserted part of the maginal line, so I’m concerned about that and I mean for what we are paying for each month a guy can not get out of his truck and see if a light is on or not.

Roland Klockow stated, the light is a State requirement that the light has to be visible.

Jan Hall stated, can’t the guy walk up to it and see if it is visible can’t he.

Roland Klockow stated, it is an alarm light, so that alarm light can come on at anytime.

Jan Hall stated, it has a reset button and a siren and a light and you go and reset it and the light still flashes. My question is why can’t some landscape be put around that so this is not an unsightly thing stick out of the ground.

Roland Klockow stated, well, like I said we do intend to landscape around it, but the light (red light) has to be visible because of the State requirements for that.

Jan Hall stated, the State requires that a man can’t get out of a truck and go look at the light.

Roland Klockow stated, no he absolute can not.

Jan Hall stated, then why can’t it be landscaped around it.

Roland Klockow stated, it kind of defeats the purpose of it being an alarm light and when the light goes on at 10:00 at night, and he is not on duty at that time.

Jan Hall stated, well if he is checking portions of the system to see that it is operating properly, I mean he has to take what action he can take to find if it is on or not.

Roland Klockow stated, in addition the district is looking at monitoring those.

Jan Hall stated, my final comment is that is very unsightly and if your putting in the system fine. If we are putting these unsightly portions of the facilities in neighborhoods I think we need to rethink it and do has much as we can to make it look as pleasing as we possibly can, rather than just taking an attitude it’s a State Law.

Betsy Hall stated, I have another question on that. Who is paying for the additional pumps and why now after the whole system is in you find it necessary to have these now, when the system is already completed. Why did you pick this location when it could have been out on the main road where it would have been out of the subdivision totally.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, that is something more for the Regional Sewer board.

Jan Hall stated, the commissioners approve public works projects in this county do they not.

This is a part of the public works.

Don Tribbett stated, we don’t get permission from the commissioners.

Jan Hall stated, well the commissioners gave approval for the sewer system around the lakes.

Don Tribbett stated, no they did not. The sewer district is organized under the State Law and State Statue. The Commissioners were apart of the community that appointed members to the sewer district board.

Betsy Hall stated, so we have no say so on what goes on with the sewer district.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, we are here….

Jan Hall stated, it was my understanding that the Commissioners had an oversee on the sewer district for Twin Lakes maybe that is incorrect.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, we don’t, it is a separate deal. We over see whether it meets all of the requirements of subdivision.

Steve Fisher stated, its not that you do not have valid complaints or issues, but this board determines whether or not they meet…..

Several are talking at once.

Jan Hall stated, please make it pleasing to the eye.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there anymore comments or questions?

Roland Klockow stated, this station originally started real close to that location and then it was moved three or four times and it was back at the same point in which we started.

Betsy Hall asked, could we have this in writing somewhere that there will not be a building put on this property.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, with this size of lot that is not possible.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Primary Approval Request for a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Transfer Station A located in Union Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Transfer Station A located in Union Township, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

Attorney Altman stated, this is subject to drainage approval.

****

#03-3 Gregory A. & Jerrielyn Jacobs; Requesting approval of a Planned Unit Development to be known as Windward on 3.97 acres. The property is located South of Monticello and Richey Lane off of Oakdale Road on the White County – Carroll County Line.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing this?

Greg Jacobs stated, I’m Greg Jacobs. A few years ago, maybe six years ago, this tract of land which really a portion of what we are asking to rezone is a portion of a 4.85 acres tract that we had received a seven lot primary subdivision. Some six years ago prior to the sewer coming in shortly after that approval, they had started talking about the sewer. We basically set tight on it and then adjoining my land. One aspect of the original primary approval we were never really comfortable with. There is a 25’ access comes out of here and we did not include that in acreage it really serves as no value to the development of the ground. We ended up with 3.97 acres. Originally this was our only ingress and egress to this tract of ground before we were able to purchase this which amounts to 20 acres. What we did we come down here off of 775 and we have laid out streets in accordance with Carroll County Subdivision. I will say that those streets, the requirements in Carroll County are only 40’ right away. We have laid these streets out in the hatch area, our striped area represents the portion of the street that access the property.

Jay Clawson asked, Greg I have a question for you. Has this been approved in Carroll County yet?

Greg Jacobs stated, no, we are seeking a same thing a planned development. The only aspect of the, the only reason we need the planned unit development zoning is because we have some higher density lots over here, other wise all of these lots and streets meet subdivision ordinance as it is written.

Jay Clawson stated, but with your access coming off of Carroll County wouldn’t it be. We can’t really act until they or once they get you approval. Then we can discuss a lot of things tonight and it is kind of contingent the way your plan is shown to us, it has to be approved in Carroll County before it comes to us in White County for us to act on it.

Greg Jacobs stated, I was hoping like the drainage that we could open it up for discuss and get it conditional and then come back for a secondary approval.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, it would be there maybe-other things too.

Greg Jacobs stated, I didn’t think I could go away with a secondary approval tonight.

Attorney Altman stated, we usually don’t do anything until the primary. We can certainly talk about it

Greg Jacobs stated, it is my understanding I guess that I lost the original primary subdivision approval, which was for a 7-lot subdivision. Basically I’m not prepared to represent that here tonight. Those 7 lots, basically that 25’ access came down the North side of the White County line and that was the access to the 7 lots. So considering that we have a 7-lot approval that the ordinance allows for as long as you 7500 sq. ft. per dwelling basically we have 14 dwellings that could be 7 lots or 14 dwellings that could be constructed on the property. We are asking for the ability to construct 16 dwellings, which if you look at the 3.97 acres that gives us an average of 12,783 sq. ft per dwelling. In the current L-1 zoning the actual square footage we will have will allow for 23 dwelling units, which we are only asking for 16. This is purely a representative of a plan. This is not the exact location. What we want to do is have the flexibility to develop condominiums that would have 16 dwelling units in where single family up to a 4 dwelling unit. We have the lake frontage here that will allow for docks, we have been to the SFLECC and have preliminary approval. We have not got our permit yet for docks along here and for docks along here. We can put docks here in front as well. We have more than enough room for the docks. To give you some type of idea the type of structure, although, it is showing a sprawling triplex design we are going for more of a multi level design, but there are 3 or 4 pictures there that represent the type of structure or work we are looking for. We want the 2, 3, or 4 unit dwelling to not contrast with the single-family dwelling. We are asking for a 12’ building separation which I believe is a little bit less than what the L-1 zoning ask for.

Attorney Altman asked, this is in your restrictions your proposed covenant and restrictions that we don’t have a copy of right?

Greg Jacobs stated, it is my understanding that I have to have them filed by the secondary approval.

Attorney Altman stated, I sure would like to see them now.

The board is currently looking at the plans.

Greg Jacobs stated, the drainage standpoint, we are going to ask for a waiver. We believe that we have a very good request for a waiver because this sets very high up on a bank. We have a ravine here that has natural flow down through here to the lake. There is a ditch that drains I don’t about 50 or 60 acres that comes up here across Richey Park and this field here to the North of the County line. The nature flow as you can see that this is a 45’ embankment and everything pretty much only a little bit kind of goes this direction. We have identified two lots on the Carroll County side that address the drainage on the other side. We actually have the ability to drain back if the drainage board deems it necessary. This outfit right here shows the outlet for, it does have an outlet here that flows back to this drain. This represents the sewer that we currently have in place up to Van Hole water plant 3 and we currently have a sewer line right there.

Greg Jacobs is currently showing the sewer lines on his map to the board.

Don Ward asked, what is this storm drainage here, is that open ditch or tile?

Greg Jacobs stated, no that is a tile from a pond. I have a larger drawing of the Carroll County side.

The board is currently looking over the plans and discussing them.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, if I’m reading this right you have triplexes in here and do you know you have to change the zoning.

Greg Jacobs stated, isn’t that what we are doing tonight.

Attorney Altman stated, it certainly is an R-3 is not in this as an L-1.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, so a PUD puts it all in one area.

Attorney Altman stated, I like to have the zone be consistent with what the usage will be.

Greg Jacobs stated, I thought that was the purpose of the plan develops with more flexibility.

Attorney Altman stated, its what the board would agree to. Since it can be rezoned I…. This here is the garage.

The board is currently going over the maps and plans from Greg Jacobs.

Attorney Altman asked, so the White County portion of this will be all owned by your or your corporation all of these units in there?

Greg Jacobs stated, no it would be a Homeowners association and suppose until it is sold out.

Attorney Altman asked, so you intend to sell these out as separate pieces.

Greg Jacobs stated, yes, this is not for rental purposes. This is for individual homeowners and those are for only rental purposes.

Attorney Altman stated, that would be the condominiums.

Greg Jacobs stated, its based on condominium concept, but they are not being built for rentals. They are being built for 2nd or primary homes.

Gary Barbour stated, can I asked what type of targeted price range you are looking at in here?

Greg Jacobs stated, starting at a low $125,000.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, what effects do set backs have for a plan unit.

Attorney Altman stated, you set them as you go it would be like we did with the one north. It’s the Northbrook, we did there we could put these in, limited, how close to each other.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, that all has to be set up.

Attorney Altman stated, it all has to be set up.

Jay Clawson stated, Mr. Koch is the same one that did, your engineer did Ward’s property.

Greg Jacobs stated, yes he did.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, a subdivision ordinance has nothing to do with this then.

Several are talking at once.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, so the board sets the setback.

Director Weaver stated, we set a minimum

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, that is what I meant.

Director Weaver stated, that gives them some flexibility.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, they can move them where ever they want as long as we don’t get into a certain footage.

Jay Clawson stated, since we are at a lull Steven and I. He is on the Fire Department and I am the liaison for the City for the fire department. We are looking at the density of this if, Steven was asking at some point is there any excess for like a dry well into the lake for getting water if there ever a fire in this area for drilling on. I was telling Steve that you have a lagoon that comes back that kind of has a level drive.

Greg Jacobs stated, we have already thought about that and we would be more than willing to put a pipe up to the, actually the best place would be to the pond. That way they could pump it out of the pond so you will need a place on the Carroll county side as well could be feed with water from the lake.

Steve Fisher stated, there is a requirement on how much water, how deep it has to be year around and those types of things for putting a dry hydrant in. You need to contact the fire department and they can tell you what that is. Something that size and the distances that you are talking about to municipal water instead of running back to town its almost to the spring factory to get to hydrants and that is a considerable distance and since you have that lagoon area maybe at some point it would be a good place to put it.

Greg Jacobs stated, as long as we can pull from the lake is an option.

Steve Fisher stated, your distance on that pond unless you can get a truck 20’ from that pond.

Greg Jacobs stated, what we can do is come up on the county line site, like you say the dry hydrants, which is just like a hydrant.

Steve Fisher stated, yes, it looks just like a hydrant and you can draw off of it.

Attorney Altman stated, I’m circulating, I asked Diann I kind of anticipated the access coming through the Carroll County roads and all for White County property. I asked what would the road geography or a typical section would be. It is somewhat different than ours. Jay has a copy of that to look at and I think we would all be interested in reviewing that to make sure, just to know what would be for the roads that are coming to the White County portion of this project.

Greg Jacobs stated, is this what you plan to use.

Director Weaver stated, this came from Dale Huffer, he faxed that to me this afternoon.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, does anyone from the audience have any questions?

One at a time stand up and state your name.

Bill Hector stated, 12330 West Dr., I live on the South side of Mr. Jacob’s subdivision in Carroll County. I heard a lot of numbers thrown out there about lots and units. I was curious how many units are going into this proposal.

Greg Jacobs stated, 16.

Bill Hector stated, 16 individual family units.

Greg Jacobs stated, 16 dwelling units.

Bill Hector asked, how dwellings in a unit?

Greg Jacobs stated, it could be up to 4.

Bill Hector stated, so it could be 4 families in 16 units, so it could be 64 units.

Greg Jacobs stated, no it could be 4 families in 4 units or 16 families in 16 units or 8 families in.

Bill Hector asked, so the most you would have is 16 families?

Greg Jacobs stated, right. The average density would be just shy of 10,800 sq. ft of land per dwelling unit.

Attorney Altman asked, have you seen a copy of the map?

Bill Hector stated, no I have not seen the Carroll County one. I mean the White County one, I have seen the Carroll County one. You can come up and look, this is not a secret.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, Greg is showing 3 units and you said 4 units.

Greg Jacobs stated, that is just a portion of it.

Attorney Altman is going over the map with people from the audience. Several people are talking at once.

Diann and David are talking, Jay Clawson is talking to people from the audience all at once.

Carol Mikesell stated, my name is Carol Mikesell and I live at North Hamby Drive below this addition and I would like to submit some of the issues raised published in the Carroll County papers. Its not only the congestion of the road, but there are several other issues. This density housing that is going to saturate our area. Some of the things that were looked at where the parking problem on a 25’ road when you are putting in 40’ lots and you are using boat trailers and 2 parked cars on those lots. The 775 we have counted as many as 32 driveway entrances on that road and of course your White County area will then come in and feed in what now is an already congested area on 775. We would like this put into the record that there are several issues of this high density housing addition. This is from the Carroll County Comet.

Greg Jacobs stated, if I may we keep using higher density rather than smaller lots. It is a fact that my square footage is requesting from you in White County sections are roughly 10,800 sq. ft.. Your own ordinance allows for 7500 sq. ft. I’m not even coming to the maximum. The record will show Carroll County that I’m asking for 6900 sq. ft. per dwelling unit. The ordinance allows for 6000. I’m not going in for the maximum, there is some question about the smaller lots 40’ lots as far as how we can minimize the lots over in the Carroll County side, but that is for the Carroll County. I think the fact of the matter is for what has had primary approval prior that there is no question that a 40’ right a way into this subdivision is the best thing for it. I would hope that I believe I can come back with highway approval. I don’t know that I could come back with I believe it will take 2 more meetings. All I have to do is getting rid of the smaller lots and every aspect of my Carroll County subdivision meets their ordinance. I’m prepared to do that if that is what the Carroll County board asks me to do. I would beg of the board to consider at least a primary vote upon contingent just like we have to have contingency on drainage, contingency on the county highway. This really is all about the county highway approving the road for what they would do with the subdivision. I would think, but at any rate whether it is highway approved or county highway approval, or Carroll County APC, I would hope that we at least get a primary vote with contingency if that is possible.

Attorney Altman stated, I sure would like to have some more time to look at this. I just received the by laws for this association. I sure would like to find out, the board would like to find out what is going on in Carroll County. I think we need, before we can figure out what is going on in White County end of it.

Greg Jacobs asked, what are the issues? Really the separations of buildings, density is I would think the biggest factor egress and ingress is a factor.

Jay Clawson stated, the egress and ingress and set backs between the two buildings. Like you say your densities. I don’t think is a problem. We just got to figure out as a board what we want as a minimum between houses.

Greg Jacobs asked, are you talking 12’?

Jay Clawson stated, the way you got them where it is corner of buildings being meet and then going in different angles to where it is more separations. Where you asked for 12’ would be like just to corners of the building like that.

They are looking at the map at this time. Jay and Greg are going over the plans.

Jay Clawson stated, I don’t see a rule in my opinion I’m not speaking for the board any real objection things to what you presented on the White County side as far as planning the development. Compared to what we had on the NorthBrook condominiums that we did a couple of years ago. Your engineer designed them.

Attorney Altman stated, I think I would like to see…

Don Ward stated, wider streets going into the condominiums. It’s in Carroll County, but as far as we are concerned.

Greg Jacobs stated, it’s not the issue it’s the 24’ pavement right away. What would you like to see?

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, 50’

Several talking at the same time again.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, what is the count here.

Jay Clawson stated, the city just passed we had an engineering company give us make us up a specification book and we asked for a 24’ hard surface between the curbs on any street. Like say you are a developer, you come to Monticello, and you want to develop subdivision in town we have a book available that shows us 24’ is what we ask for. I think by far then they ask for specs on the radius of entrances and stuff.

??? asked, what is Stone Hollow’s?

Jay Clawson stated, I do not know that is Carroll County.

Gary Barbour asked, how would the drinking water be for this development?

Greg Jacobs stated, we have 2 options, wells or we are planning on piping in, we own a public water system. Cedar Crest Mobile Home Park and we are hoping that we can run 3-inch water mains that is what has been engineered and we are testing and trying to meet the full criteria and we feel that is a better way than having wells throughout the project.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree. How long will that take you to get that approved?

Greg Jacobs stated, it’s an idea.

Attorney Altman stated, I can understand that.

Greg Jacobs stated, well it’s accessible through the sewer, so you know one works just as well as the other. I would hope I’m not held up because I don’t have that in line because I can go and drill a well and legally supply water to it. I don’t think that should be an issue. I think the 30’ is a little excessive. I wouldn’t have a problem doing something similar to Stone Hollow if that is 24’. I think that would work well for there, if that would satisfy the board. What I’m hoping is at least to be able to leave here and I heard it may not be feasible for the June meeting, but I would at least like to have the opportunity to address any and all concerns prior to the June meeting.

Jay Clawson stated, 24 would be better for passing vehicles and that kind of stuff. I noticed on Northbrook their road is a little bit small than a 24 and its, especially with passing with two big trucks passing on that road you can pass, but it is kind of tight.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, but would 24’ of asphalt how much right away do you need to build and put the water line in.

Don Ward stated, well that goes under the pavement. If you are going to have a 40’ right away I suppose 24 is not to wide with curbs I don’t think. If everybody agrees on this I won’t agree with it. Are you going to have side walks like that section shows, so you can not have to wide of pavement or your are not going to have room for side walks. I’d say 24 are an absolute minimum.

Jay Clawson stated, like you said, you are going to have to submit that to White County Drainage, either they will give you an exception or you will have to come up with a plan before it is brought back to us anyway. That is up to them to deem what is necessary for your development.

Greg Jacobs stated, so other than the dry hydrants, I will need 24’

Jay Clawson stated, that is not a requirement by us. He is concerned with the environment, with the density of this and as far as this to any water source. If it can be designed in here, now would be the time to design it in, instead of finding out 5 years from now, boy we should have done that.

Greg Jacobs stated, I’m interested in the safety and I’m willing….

Jay Clawson stated, and I’m sure the insurance rates for your entire neighborhood by having this available. It couldn’t hurt. Everything we do in the City with the ISO rates better which lowers everybody’s insurance rates.

There are several different people talking at once.

Greg Jacobs stated, the current set back in an L-1 is at least 8’ or 18’ with a sum of and in an R-4 it is 12’, in a R-3 it is 12’.

Several are talking at once again about the setbacks.

Attorney Altman stated, you are talking about far bit more density here than single lots would be and the potential for a lot burning in one spot than in individual spots and I hate to say it that way, but that is the way it is. If you have more people in here, the separation really does matter.

Greg Jacobs asked, are you uncomfortable with 12’?

Attorney Altman stated, I am a little bit because of it being out so far away from the fire department. I really am.

Greg Jacobs asked, will this dry well address this?

Attorney Altman stated, it certainly goes towards it, yes Greg, it certainly does go towards it. You still got to get a truck out there, if you can’t get a truck out there. Steve can you get out there in 10 minutes?

Steve Fisher stated, it is probably further out there.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, you need to check with Mr. Couts about that from a fire point of view, the standards about everything. You need to see if 13’ would be enough or 12’ is enough and I really would be interested in Mr. Couts impute on that as to how another minute or two with this dry hydrant is enough. That is what we are really looking at. In other words you maybe 5 minutes or 3 minutes max. Fire department engine being there. You are going to be 8 to 10 minutes. I’m not sure and it makes me leery.

Greg Jacobs stated, in the same token in a mobile home park it is 10’ separation minimum in a cinder block in a firebox.

Attorney Altman stated, they are a lot shorter and they are only one at a time. You may have as many as 3 at a time. It could really be a lot of burning. Where that extra foot there could make a big difference. I’m not sure I would like some impute from Mr. Couts and maybe research it ourselves. Any other questions for next meeting.

Greg Jacobs stated, I just want to know when I leave here knowing that I have address each and every item that I need to address. I don’t want to miss anything.

Steve Fisher stated, until we see a final thing we can’t say, and you may bring something back and we might say, well that is different.

Greg Jacobs stated, well the ordinance, if the board is not, I don’t know what I could possibly bring back from a fire issue. You two gentlemen know best. I mean its what you are really comfortable with this, I will come back with something more comfortable with. I don’t think Mr. Couts the excellent engineer that he is, I’m not sure what we can add to the argument that 12’ is to close. Is 12’ close or a lot.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that here in town and really close to the fire department.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, what kind of height deal, not to change the subject, but you were even talking about taking. How many stories?

Greg Jacobs stated, 30’. The bottom is half under.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, I’m assuming that is something that needs to be in a plan and needs to be in the specks. Like I said Greg this is new to me and.

David Scott asked, what is the height requirement?

Director Weaver stated, the typically R-2 zoning is 30’.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, would each one have a garage? No matter how many units you will put in?

Jay Clawson asked, what are the exterior treatments are you planning. Is brick?

Greg Jacobs stated, either brick ethes or hard lapboard (we may need to ask Dave about this) cedar siding. No vinyl siding what so ever.

Steve Fisher stated, you could put on your closes edges you can make them non-combustible by putting brick up and help it out that way to.

Attorney Altman stated, again this will, when you come to a plan community development these sort of issues the board and the developer and we look for the developer to sort of name there what ever it is to resolve these issues.

Greg Jacobs stated, I understand I really do, I just want to make sure that as many of the issue we raise now I won’t be in August.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, will each unit have the ability to park 2 cars, like one inside or one out front in the driveway or..

Greg Jacobs stated, yes.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, it looks like on this drawing you have a parking lot.

Greg Jacobs stated, there are 2 parking spaces minimum for the dwelling units.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, so is there one in the garage or is there going to be like a parking lot or will it be one in the garage and one in the driveway?

Greg Jacobs stated, no it will be one in the garage as well as outside.

Attorney Altman stated, see up there they have none outside.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, what I’m getting at Greg is this a parking lot that you have in this drawing.

Greg Jacobs stated, well we having parking you know we want over flow parking.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, this is an overflow that each unit has, is that in the width of the driveway or the length?

Greg Jacobs stated, it is both.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, there are no measurements on here what so ever, so in your plan unit you are going to have to show the width of the drive. So that it does show that two cars car be parked there. One car garage or two. Each driveway has to show a certain width and length, so you can have, you are stating 2 or 3 spaces per dwelling. That needs to show somewhere in the specks. I guess the driveway.

Attorney Altman stated, we would like to have a schismatic, excuse me that is the wrong wording. I blueprint of your single, double and your triple, so we have that down on the specifications of that also.

Greg Jacobs stated, can I not provide you with specifications for that structure and some semblance, I’d like to have the flexibility too.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, could it be in square footage and by floor.

Steve Fisher stated, as long as he has his building dimensions I think you could, I mean is that acceptable.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Steve Fisher stated, just have your outside dimensions for your buildings. You have done that here. I can’t imagine having a blue print ready for June.

Jay Clawson asked, shouldn’t one of the requirements be, if he is going to allow parking in the driveway, that the driveway be deep enough for a single car that the sidewalk, so the cars will not be parked on the sidewalks. See what I’m saying.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, he is talking about the width is wide enough all you need is one car forward. He wants it to where no car would have to park on the sidewalk crossing.

Jay Clawson stated, just as long as the garage is far enough back so no one parks on the sidewalk. At one time some one proposed an addition and all of the sidewalks were covered if anyone parked in front of the garage.

Attorney Altman asked, how is the electric service going in?

Greg Jacobs stated, NIPSCO is going over head right now upper Haamby Drive to the county line and then from there underground.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, so are the transformer do they have to be in a right away or does that do on someone’s lot. When they go underground the transformers have to set somewhere around there.

Greg Jacobs stated, my preference that they would be close to the right away.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, I would think they would go in the right away.

Don Ward stated, you are not going to have a lot of room on the right way.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, well that is what I’m trying to get at is, he has to make enough room in his right away for something like that and still have your road. I mean that is something to check to see where they put it or where they are going to require you to have it.

They are having a discussion about the electric right away. Several are talking at once.

There is a discussion going on between Attorney Altman, Jay Clawson and Greg Jacobs.

Attorney Altman asked, is this going to be a common area?

Greg Jacobs stated, there would be a common area, but not for the Carroll County side. The White County side. That is just one of the access things we will have to deal with.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, what I’m saying from a point of view of your organization, it is intended for this unit be just used by the White County side of this. The White county access would be just to the White County side.

Greg Jacobs stated, there is a portions, see the yellow line where the Carroll County lots will be into White County, so it is not exclusive to White County. There is a portion of the lots on the line there.

Attorney Altman stated, that would be a part of this.

Steve Fisher asked, to you have places for street lighting.

Greg Jacobs stated, yes, what we are doing is incorporating a mailbox with a street comet built on it with a light and a light, and street address on the mail box that. Each lot is required to have… That light will be required from dust to dawn and it will be required to be on that is the way we are addressing the street light, so at least every 50’ there will be a light.

Attorney Altman stated, Carroll County’s portion of this isn’t’ shown on or doesn’t appear to be shown on the, I’m talking about page 2 of 5 here. I’m curious where is this laid out, so the board can see your true Carroll County portion that will be a part and parcel of this.

Greg Jacobs asked, do you want to see the Carroll County plan.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, the part that over laps into White County that you were talking about.

Attorney Altman stated, I mean it shows here, but…

Greg Jacobs stated, there is not a plan representing it.

They are currently looking at plans.

Dennis Sterrett stated, it is in there.

Attorney Altman stated, no it isn’t, and it’s in here.

Dennis Sterrett stated, he still is in Carroll County.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand, but he is also saying that this ground right here is…

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, you said some kind of lot was over lapping in White and Carroll County.

Greg Jacobs stated, see this right here on the front page of the White County, okay see this bold line here. As far as our Homeowners Association goes and this makes up Windward Carroll County and this is Windward White County.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, there are no lots over lapping the Association will take in 2 counties.

Attorney Altman stated, every thing we have seen is, I’m looking in this area right here. Then you show lots here 1,2,3,4 and they are not shown on here.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, we they are in the corner, you have two single lots come on over to the right. What is that spot?

Greg Jacobs stated, that is not our land that is Mrs. Calhoun’s, our neighbor.

Attorney Altman asked, then why is it on here?

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, it is showing it as per lots.

Steve Fisher stated, well he is representing as is, these 4 lots are not us.

Attorney Altman stated, okay. That is who did you say Mrs. Calhoun?

They are currently showing the maps to Attorney Altman because he was confused. Several are talking at once.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, have we given you a good idea of kind of where we are headed.

Greg Jacobs stated, would it be possible, I know I gave you, I know you keep everything I gave you, but would it be possible to have one set of those back.

Attorney Altman asked, would you want to come back to the next meeting?

Greg Jacobs stated, there is nothing there that can not be addressed.

Several are talking at once again about the dates of the next meeting and when Carroll County will meet again.

Jay Clawson asked, what is the timetable for the drainage board to meet.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I think is the week before the meeting.

Attorney Altman asked, when could he get on your agenda Denny?

Dennis Sterrett stated, it is to late for the next meeting.

Several are talking at once again.

Jay Clawson stated, if you have a waiver from him then we will be able to hear it, but if they deem that you have to have a full blown plan then it would have to be.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, Jay he can be on the June 2, which would be before the next meeting.

Jay Clawson stated, okay, then he would no then whether or not he had to go farther about.

Director Weaver stated, but not soon enough to send you any information in your packet. We try to send those out 10 days prior.

Several are talking at once again. Jay and Greg are having a conversation and Diann and David are having a conversation.

Jay Clawson stated, we need to know that you have a written thing for a road and that type or whether or not you get a waiver or even if we acted on primary, it would have to be, if they have a contingent on an okay from the drainage board and then once you got the whole thing, then it could go secondary.

Gary Barbour asked, do you want the county to maintain the roads in the White County part of it?

Greg Jacobs stated, no, not at all.

Gary Barbour stated, I want just wondering because of the access through Carroll County we would have to get approval.

Greg Jacobs stated, no.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anymore business?

Bill Hector stated, I have one more thing to say, if I could. I wanted to ask the board a couple of questions if it is not appropriate tell me. How many of you have a place on the lake? How many of you use the lake? We are talking about adding according to the Carroll County paper and some of the numbers that I have heard thrown out, we are talking about adding 1000, plus what you guys have people, plus visitors to this lake on the weekends, so that is to give you something to think about.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, thank you. Do we have anymore business Diann?

****

Jay Clawson made a motion to adjourn.

Everyone seconded the motion.

****

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission