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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, July 14, 2003, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, David Scott, Stephen Fisher, Don Ward, Scott Kyburz, Gregory Bossaer, Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Charles R. Mellon, Jay Cherry, Vallery Cherry, Shirley Hanslow, Ruth A Sorensen, C.E. Calloway, Ray Hanslow, Peter Sorensen, Renee Cleefman, James Stonebraker, Todd Mathew, Jamie Mathew, Greg Jacobs, Charles B. Roth, and Richard Hubbard

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. No minutes were presented to the board for approval.


#821 Richard J. & Sandra L. Suray Revocable Trust; The property is located on Lot 1 in Breezy Hill Subdivision West of Lowe’s Bridge at 3838 E. Bailey Road. This was tabled from the May 12, 2003 meeting.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from B-2 to L-1 to bring the property

into compliance with the White County Zoning Ordinance.

Tabled until August 11, 2003.



#826 Jay E. & Vallery F. Cherry; The property is located on part of Lot 742 in W.W. Raub’s Second Addition, in the Town of Chalmers at 205 & 207 S. 22nd Street and 214 & 216 W. East Street.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-2 to R-3.

Jay Cherry was there representing the request.



Attorney Altman stated, noncompliance, right.

Director Weaver stated, correct, they are zoned R-2, 1 and 2 Family residential.

Attorney Altman asked, but if they rezone they could add another duplex to this?

Director Weaver stated, yes, possibly.

Attorney Altman asked, with a variance or without a variance?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t have enough information to tell you that.

President Charles Anderson asked, what kind of problems would they have as far as a permit?

Director Weaver stated, they haven’t applied for any permits. They can do repairs and improvements up to 50%.

President Charles Anderson asked, what exactly are you wanting to do?

What are you talking about as far as having to?

Jay Cherry stated, it has just been explained to us that say for instant we had to replace the roof, that we can’t even do that right now without having permission from all of the neighbors around there. That they all have give the okay.

President Charles Anderson asked, is that in the restrictive covenants that you have?

Jay Cherry stated, that is what we have been told by other.

President Charles Anderson asked, by your neighbors?

Jay Cherry stated, no, by other people who have the rental properties in the area.

President Charles Anderson stated, no that is not true.

Vallery Cherry stated, or if something would happen that fire would happen, that we couldn’t rebuild on the same property.

Director Weaver stated, that is true, yes.

Vallery Cherry stated, this is just pretty much to protect ourselves, so that down the road if we want to see or if we want to do anything to the property. That it would be rezoned the R-3.

President Charles Anderson asked, so basically, right now, you are not wanting to change anything, you want to leave it as it is.

Jay Cherry stated, no, it is just to protect us down the road.

Steve Fisher asked, do they understand that unless that building is totaled destroy they can rebuild.

Director Weaver stated, they cannot improve it more than 50%. If it is totally restored or rebuilt it has to be rezoned. We have tried to explain that yes.

Steve Fisher stated, okay.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 6 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to The Town of Chalmers for their action.


#827 A. White Rock Family Partnership; The property is located on 4.7366 acres more or less, North of Monticello, just North of 1922 N. West Shafer Drive.

Violation: Applicant currently allowing Hubbard’s Chevrolet to conduct car sales on the property without being properly zoned.

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to B-2.

B. Hubbard Chevrolet-Cadillac-Buick Olds-Pontiac-GMC Trucks, Inc.

Violation: Conducting car sales on property with out being properly zoned. Cease and desist order posted June 20, 2003.

Note: These are combined as Richard Hubbard has been the principal person applying for White Rock Family Partnership and was the person who accepted the notice of violation for Hubbard Chevrolet-Cadillac-Buick Olds-Pontiac-GMC Trucks, Inc.


President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request?


Richard Hubbard stated, I’m Richard Hubbard.


President Charles Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any questions on this?

Anyone in the audience have any questions on this? Again this takes 6 votes to get a positive recommendation.


Attorney Altman stated, it looks pretty similar to a plat, but it says it is a rezoning survey.


Without further discussion the board voted.


The results of the vote were as follows: 6 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to White County Commissioners for their action.

President Charles Anderson stated, on this we had a violation. The violation was the applicant currently allowing Hubbard Chevrolet to conduct car sales on the property without being properly zoned. He was given a Cease and Desist order on June 20, 2003. Do you have any comments on this Diann?


Director Weaver stated, I think it is pretty self-explanatory, the board received a copy of the information taken at the time they came into the office. They came in originally to apply for a permit for a temporary trailer for the tent sale. They did not come in with all of their information when my secretary brought it to my attention that they had been in, I informed her that they were not properly zoned. She got on the phone with I believe it was Pat, and explained the situation to him, explaining that they were not properly zoned. They did then go ahead and do the car sales without a permit and being properly zoned. I did post a Cease and Desist order and gave a letter to Mr. Hubbard on June 20 and asked, them to removed the cars and trailer and tent immediately. The cars sales, as a matter of fact they just removed the cars this morning.


President Charles Anderson asked, can you give us any reason why you did that Dick?


Richard Hubbard stated, we are a little bit at the mercy of the board and of course the mercy of the system. What happen after 13 years of doing the same exact same thing in the same basic location except different, how I looked at it I own the property where before I did not own the property. When we did everything as we always had, which we have always filed for all of the permits and the applications in a timely manner. When we did this and found that the property that I owed was not zoned for Business. We immediately came in and applied for everything as soon as we could to get things going. Because of the newspaper and because of the next meeting schedule with the time delays that we had and everything had been done from computer people, advertising, had all been done 6 months ago and it was a thing that was basically no way to stop what was in process. I was just at the mercy of the system of what was happening.


President Charles Anderson asked, you didn’t have any idea that the zone of A-1 you couldn’t run a car dealership?


Richard Hubbard stated, my cars, my property and I have done the same thing for the last 13 years.


President Charles Anderson stated, but you were across the road. Did you know what the zoning was across the road?


Richard Hubbard stated, I never thought that on my farm I couldn’t sell a car. People sell on their street corners all of the time. You have had one for sale down at your place, I’ve seen them down at your place. I didn’t know I couldn’t put them on the farm and do that.


Director Weaver stated, but that is not a business.


Richard Hubbard stated, I understand I’m just. Until I realized through the permit process and then because I was still 3 weeks out. I asked for a special variance, since I applied for everything. I never heard from Jerry on that. I don’t know. Everything I thought was being complied with. It was anyone flaunting any system in anyway, or I wouldn’t have been in for the permits and I wouldn’t have filed for anything. I wouldn’t have done anything.


President Charles Anderson asked, do the commissioners have anything?


Director Weaver asked, when did you purchase this property? How long ago?


Richard Hubbard stated, I don’t know exactly. Probably been about 2 years ago.

We didn’t have it the other year because we couldn’t get it ready. It was total farm ground before.


President Charles Anderson asked, what is the legality of the fines and things like that.


Director Weaver stated, you passed a policy last winter that it is an automatic $500 fine minimum.


President Charles Anderson asked, what can we do on that?


Attorney Altman stated, you need to, my name was just mentioned, I wasn’t aware of other than Doc asking me if there was anything that could be done that.


President Charles Anderson asked, what was in that ordinance that you.


Richard Hubbard stated, upon visitation I asked at that time surely because of all of the things that has been on every application everything has been done, the survey and everything, if there was a temporary variance or something that could be done.


President Charles Anderson asked, what did you read to me from that book.


Richard Hubbard stated, it would just be common sense that there would be, but I just never heard anything back on that part of it.


Attorney Altman stated, well all I’m saying is that the request I received information was from Doc to check to see whether there was any thing that would allow for this to be done differently. The ordinance in reading it, there wasn’t anything that could be done differently. That is all, like I said the request was through Doc and to check it and as we always try to do all of the time to make sure we are serving everybody and not undoing stopping any development in White County. The truth is I can’t find what I read right now, what I read to you the other day. There are several places that allow for a temporary occupancy, but they did not seem to be here as the standards.


Richard Hubbard stated, that was another thing it was for days not a life time situation. That is just where I asked for.


Steve Fisher asked, what was the time frame when you came in to get the permit to.


Richard Hubbard stated, I’m not exactly sure, it was 20 some days or 24.


Director Weaver stated, they came in on May 21, and I posted that stop work order on June 20.


Steve Fisher stated, I mean from the time where the office said, oh my gosh we got an A-1 zoning here.


Richard Hubbard stated, I did everything immediately, I did it as quick as I could do it.


Steve Fisher asked, was he called on the same day?


Director Weaver stated, yes.


Attorney Altman stated, its not that it didn’t comply, it didn’t allow for that. That was the unfortunate thing about it. The ordinance did not allow for that.


President Charles Anderson stated, it’s a gray area.


Jay Clawson stated, they allow tent sales on the fair grounds and they are not zoned right.


Director Weaver stated, that is a different ordinance.


Attorney Altman stated, that is a different ordinance, but that is up to you guys to decided.


President Charles Anderson asked, do we decide the fine even though it is a mandatory fine.


Director Weaver stated, yes, according to the policy that you adopted yes it is.


President Charles Anderson asked, is there anyway we can waive that legally?


Attorney Altman stated, we will issue an automatic $500 fine, it is part of.


President Charles Anderson asked, can I get some more impute from the commissioners?


Gary Barbour stated, I have an opinion and I guess I will make a motion. I make a motion because I don’t think you need to waive the fine totally because a violation is a violation. If you let somebody walk and everybody is going to try and walk. I make a motion that we fine him a $100 and that he print an apology in the local paper stating what had happened and that he apologizes for doing that so we get people aware of what is going on and what we are doing here and.


President Charles Anderson asked, what do you think about that Dick? Does that satisfy you?


Richard Hubbard stated, I’m totally at everyone’s mercy.


Steve Fisher stated, if this is still open for discussion. The only thing I know that when a person comes into the office and they applied for whatever it is, if the error is okay we didn’t realize this was something that cannot be done and they leave the office under the idea they have completed what they have, even though we picked up the phone and gave them a call. It seems like there is a little bit of responsibility of the office having the correct information and that would have been stopped at that moment, you know saying whoa we cannot do that.


Gary Barbour stated, no, how are you going to know if they have got all of the information given at that time.


Director Weaver stated, this was done within minutes Steve. As soon as they left the office, Cindy walked back to my office told me what was going on and I told her immediately I had researched this previously because I had been told that this was going to happen.


Richard Hubbard stated, if that is true why didn’t you comment then.


Jay Clawson stated, yes why didn’t you.


Director Weaver stated, it is not my responsible to say look you need to rezone, it is your responsibility to come to the office and inquire. I had heard rumor, I don’t put faith in rumor.


Richard Hubbard stated, but for 13 years you knew we would be in.


Director Weaver stated, I knew you would be in, but I did not know for a fact that you were going to put it on that side of the road. Like I said it was a rumor off the street. I don’t put any weight in rumors.


Richard Hubbard stated, let me tell you if you came to my place I would sure tell you okay.


Director Weaver stated, I apologize, I did not deal with your son when he came in either. That is why as soon as she came in I notified her, or told her to notify him.


President Charles Anderson stated, another thing everybody does not know, we don’t know what all is in that book.


Steve Fisher stated, I understand that I think that the office, not to lay blame on anybody, I think the office needs to have good customer service at that point, and why can’t we have that information somehow for them. Do we have to change something or what.


President Charles Anderson stated, the whole thing started months before that. Dick didn’t know that he needed to change the zoning on that.


Steve Fisher stated, yes that is what I mean.


President Charles Anderson stated, there is no way for us to foresee something like this.


Attorney Altman stated, how does she know that Mr. Hubbard was going to do something that she doesn’t know.


Steve Fisher stated, other than this is the parcel I’m going to do it on, what is the zoning of that?


Attorney Altman stated, he has always done it on the other side of the road.


Director Weaver stated, but I, we deal with people weekly calling that are looking at purchasing property and inquiring ahead of the purchase even. This is something that could have been done last year, this could have been rezoned last year.


David Scott asked, is there someway that there like Mr. Hubbard had no choice but to go on with doing it. Because of advertising came into play here. He probably went ahead and did it knowing he was wrong, so there should be someway.


Attorney Altman stated, the Area Plan Commission reserves the right to increase, decrease, or move a fine based on the evidence provided.


David Scott stated, we have run into this before in the BZA where I mean with a school. Their guys all volunteered their time and everything else to do something and when they go to the last minute the school was getting ready to start, they can’t wait for 6 weeks for.


Gary Barbour stated, right, but we fined them and they had to print an apology saying to the kids for educational purposes.


David Scott stated, what I’m saying there should be something in there so that in this case, the case of the school where they don’t have time to wait 2 months to come before this board or what ever, they can proceed at their own risk or something. I mean both of these, he did, he tried to do to make it right. The time element wasn’t such that he could do it right.


Richard Hubbard stated, I hadn’t requested a special meeting or and I don’t know if it is ever done that way. I don’t know.


David Scott stated, you know this is going to come up again sometime, and there needs to be an out for people don’t know the rules, but when they find out what they are they don’t have time to you know.


President Charles Anderson stated, it would have to be a real, it would have to be something that is closing and.


Jay Clawson stated, he was in good faith filing his petition and got his survey, if he would have not come back in and ran his tent sale and not filed his petition for rezoning, then I would say you could maximum fine him because he would be flaunting it in the face of Area Plan. Through the end of the discussion I would be more than happy to second that.


Director Weaver stated, he had the rezoning filed before the tent sale even started.


Jay Clawson stated, I know, but in any, I have never done anything to that scope but I know a lot of times when you are running any kind of special sale you spend months and months trying to put together all of your advertising with all of the dates, and special promotions that you hand out to people in the streets and things that are mailed. People who are financing, he had to bring computer guys in there, you are moving a whole business out for a 14 days or 21 day sale. There are a lot a logistics to that. You just can’t say we are going to back this off 3 weeks.


President Charles Anderson asked, you probably stayed longer because of the rain?

We have a motion and a second. Why don’t we just call for a show of hands all in favor raise your right hand. All of those opposed. So we have a fine of $100 and write what happened, why you did it and put it in the paper Dick.


David Scott asked, there isn’t anything we could do.


President Charles Anderson stated, there isn’t. In the book there is a little, if everything was in order and ready to go and he missed it and at the Directors discretion she might be able to let it go with a, but I don’t think we can find that right now. It doesn’t really define real well.


David Scott stated, I want to say one more thing, the other side to this is we have to try to be fair to Diann because after all she is out there trying to enforce rules and that is why, I know it wasn’t easy for her to go see Mr. Hubbard. This is a tough situation, and I wish there was some way that we could.


Attorney Altman stated, either you have an ordinance or you don’t.


Gary Barbour stated, being on the BZA and seeing the violations that we see on a monthly bases, if we don’t stop it some place it will continue on and on and on, and this could have been a lot worse. This could have been a $500 fine and it could have been a $10,000 fine.


President Charles Anderson stated, there is a limited, it could have been $500 a day for each day that he was out of the ordinance. It could have gone, I think the State’s limit is $2500, but I’m not sure if that is still in effect.



#285 George Cleefman Jr.; Requesting approval of a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Cedar Hill on 1.886 acres. The property is located West of Reynolds, on the Southeast corner of County Road 100 N. and County Road 300 W. This was tabled from the May 12, 2003 meeting.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anybody here representing this request?

Renee Cleefman stated, I’m Renee Cleefman.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any questions on this?

Director Weaver stated, I would like to state that she has changed her plan from a 3 lot subdivision to a 1 lot subdivision. She has kept the lot on the corner and done away with the other 2.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone it he audience have any questions on this?

Dennis Sterrett asked, is this a final approval on this tonight?

Director Weaver stated, you do have the secondary plat and it is ready for secondary approval.

Dennis Sterrett stated, the 3 lots where approved by the drainage board, I think it should go back to the drainage board and let them look at the one lot because it is different than what was approved by them the first time. I know she has been here 4 times, but can we approve it on.

Director Weaver stated, you can approve it based on a contingent.

Renee Cleerman asked, Mr. Sterrett can I ask why?

Dennis Sterrett stated, well the drainage board approved a 3-lot subdivision and this is different. It is a 1-lot subdivision.

Renee Cleefman stated, well we have chosen, well there was just supposable not enough land to make 80’ from this road and 80’ from this road, and 15’ we were 20’ short the first time because of an access road which I wasn’t going to do anyway. I was using my own driveway and no one will ever buy that land, because I won’t sell it to anybody. It is my yard, so the particular area we choose had plenty of 80’ from this road and 80’ from this road and 15’ from both sides and it is kind of flat. The front part is, which we are not planning on using it.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I don’t think you will have any problems, I mean we meet Monday.

Renee Cleefman stated, okay.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I just want the drainage board to look at it and approve the one lot.

President Charles Anderson asked, so it meets everything on the subdivision.

Renee Cleefman stated, this is kind of ironic because if this had all gotten approved the first time and we had set the trailer a tree would have fallen on it, if it had gotten approved again and there was a house on the other lot, 2 trees would have fallen on it.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Primary Approval Request for a 1-lot subdivision to be known as Cedar Hill located in West of Reynolds, was approved by a vote of 6 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Cedar Hill located in West of Reynolds, was approved by a vote of 6 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

This is subject to Drainage approval.


#288 Robert A. Mathew; Requesting approval of a 1 subdivision to be known as Little Pine #2 on 1.157 acres. The property is located Southeast of Brookston on the South side of Creekside Court.

President Charles Anderson asked, was this tabled before.

Attorney Altman stated, it is a new application.

President Charles Anderson asked, are there any questions on this?

Attorney Altman stated, as I understand this request, it is exactly the same request we had before us. Is that correct Diann?

Director Weaver stated, to the best of knowledge yes.

Attorney Altman stated, the access to this parcel of ground is the same access 22’ and no change in anything else, concern is about drainage and access.

President Charles Anderson asked, what is the access to this?

Director Weaver stated, 22’

President Charles Anderson stated, 22’ of access on the front of this.

Attorney Altman stated, the ordinance stated it needs to be 50’.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the commissioners have any questions?

Attorney Altman stated, it makes the plat non-comply with our ordinance.

Todd Mathew stated, whether or not its subdivided or not, there will be someone living there. That is not going to change a bit. This is just so that I can get a mortgage for my house. So I don’t have to buy the entire property from Dad. We have been living there for a year now and the access was just fine.

Robert Mathew stated, we are not going to put any more houses there. When this first started everyone thought at one time that we were going to put 5 or 6 houses there. That is not going to happen. If we can have this stated to my boy can his home and finally have a house payment, I would be so relieved. Besides that I will put in there never to be subdivided again, what ever is under your ordinance just to get us out of this. We’ve been going through this for over a year now.

Jamie Mathew stated, there is a pole barn there now, we want the pole barn separated from the house. We don’t want the pole barn.

Robert Mathew stated, Milligan already did the survey, I didn’t think this was going to be any problem and then there are some neighbors and stuff that didn’t know what was going on, which I can understand. I can understand because they didn’t know us. We have talked to them, if they would like to say, nothing has changed. I just want him to have a house payment, and him have that. This is never going to be subdivided again. If you want to state that, I will sign it.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody here with any questions about this request? Please state your name.

Pete Sorenson stated, I’m Peter Sorenson. I’ve lived there for 32 years I think it is. Originally there were a lot of promises made and the people who made those promises are long dead.

Robert Mathew stated, well what if it is in writing.

Pete Sorenson stated, it didn’t matter. You get conveniences and all sort of things and it doesn’t matter. You say your not going to build on that and I guess I believe you, but the next guy that owns its, may say I don’t care about that. I’m going to build.

Robert Mathew stated, if it can never be subdivided again, isn’t that self-explanatory. I mean couldn’t it be?

Pete Sorenson stated, nothing has changed from the original thing going on here. I mean the road is still not wide enough, the drainage is still horrible.

Robert Mathew stated, because of the house we built up there.

Pete Sorenson stated, no.

Robert Mathew stated, oh come on it is not going to change no matter what we do.

Attorney Altman stated, this is not the way we handle.

President Charles Anderson stated, we have another man back here who wants to talk.

Charles Roth stated, I’m Charles Roth. I think the question over here I don’t think that there is a one of us in the community there has any objection to your son living in the house. That is not the question. There are two questions. 1. Is the ordinance is has already been brought up in this County call their zoning office.

Robert Mathew stated, that has nothing to do with this meeting.

Charles Roth stated, yes it does, it has everything to do with this meeting. This is the zoning board. We have guidelines set aside for subdivisions and that one resets essentially the guidelines for subdivisions in White County. If we make an exception here then we have got to look at a lot of other subdivision requests or that are potentially out there, that could come before this board. The other thing is by taking the 1.157 acres off of there, you are still left with 3 acres at least, a little over 3 acres. There is nothing that I know of that would prevent you from building another house on that along with the barn. There are no prevention’s that I’m aware of. Maybe the board can correct me on that, but I don’t see one. I think that there are a couple of things here that is of the objections of the community. So I raise that. The question between 22’ wide, there is no question, yea you can get people up there, but I tell you, you will have a tough time getting emergency vehicles up that 22’ road. They already know that, and that is why the questions are being raised. That is the reason that the 50’ is in there.

Robert Mathew stated, but nothing is going to change, I mean there is just the one house there.

President Charles Anderson stated, well the road is not going to bigger. The drive won’t be 50’ wide for the county to be able to take it over and drainage on both sides of it and other things.

Do the commissioners have anything on this? With a 22’ road it doesn’t meet our subdivisions ordinance.

Director Weaver stated, the roadways are required to be 50’.

President Charles Anderson asked, how many houses are on the property you are trying to spit?

Robert Mathew stated, there is only one and there is only going to be one.

Director Weaver stated, this is one house and one pole barn.

Robert Mathew stated, the pole barn was there when I bought it. It has been there.

President Charles Anderson asked, how about the remaining.

Robert Mathew stated, these people could tell you better than I can how long that pole building has been there.

Attorney Altman stated, is the 22’ road there significant enough acreage that could be subdivided into this if it were allowed to do this. In other words, if you set a standard or put a standard or a bar here and everybody thinks they can require. That is why the ordinance talks about and requires a 50’, and why we have turn down plats before that didn’t have that.

Robert Mathew stated, you know when I bought this place from the Realtors they said I had no problems what so ever, and I am so far in debt on this and I can’t even get him a house. He can’t even get anything established for himself. You know what, what am I suppose to do. Am I just suppose to just sell it all and take a loss and let them deal with it later with somebody that maybe they could have somebody worse. I have been so friendly with all of the neighbors and Cecil you know I have. I have been around and talked to every one of them. I have been as sincere as I can, if you guys just want me to take a loss on it, then just tell me tonight to take a loss at it and let him move his family out with my grandkids. You guys decide.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the commissioners got anything to say? This comes off of, who road does this come off of? This is Creek Side Court.

Cecil Calloway stated, it is a privately owned road.

President Charles Anderson stated, but it is owned by all of the property owners in that area.

Cecil Calloway stated, no.

President Charles Anderson asked, who owns the road?

Cecil Calloway stated, I do.

David Scott asked, do they have an easement or something?

Cecil Calloway stated, no.

President Charles Anderson asked, then how did he get bound into buying something with no easement to it?

Cecil Calloway stated, I don’t know if he has an easement or not.

Robert Mathew stated, we were told we did by the realtors.

President Charles Anderson asked, who was the realtor?

Robert Mathew stated, Jeff Ward.

David Scott asked, what about everybody else back there, they don’t have an easement to the road?

Cecil Calloway stated, I couldn’t answer that, I couldn’t tell you that.

Raymond Hanslow stated, we live immediately to the East and we don’t pay any easements.

President Charles Anderson asked, has the county taken over that road, or is that just a private drive?

Cecil Calloway stated, I wish they would.

President Charles Anderson asked, when you built that house did you get a building permit?

Robert Mathew stated, yes. All of the building permits are in order. I think that Diann can agree with that.

President Charles Anderson stated, then you actually shouldn’t have issued a building permit.

Several are talking at once.

Jay Clawson stated, they were okay with the 5 acres, but now they want to split 5 acres into 2 lots, which by doing that creates one more building, one more lot buildable because it is over 3 acres. By subdividing it there is no way you can, it is not stated as a non-buildable lot.

David Scott stated, I don’t see how people can build houses without having an access easement.

Charles Roth stated, most of these homes where built in the 1970’s, like 1972, 1973, and 1974. You were required to have a building permit, but that was just about it.

Dennis Sterrett asked, didn’t the Smith’s own that?

Several are talking at once. Discussing when the subdivision ordinance went into effect.

Gary Barbour asked, what was the original subdivision ordinance road width?

Attorney Altman asked, what was it?

Director Weaver stated, I can’t answer that.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t know and I can’t answer that.

Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, it was 37 ½’ for the first subdivision ordinance required that you have that much contact with an access street.

David Scott asked, how can we make this work?

Charles Roth stated, I would have less objections if his house said it took 3 ½ acres.

Gary Barbour asked, can you afford to do that.

Charles Roth stated, am I right, then you don’t have a buildable lot on the other side of them.

President Charles Anderson stated, you don’t split that.

Charles Roth stated, okay, but you are still opening up a can of worms for yourselves because everybody else can develop.

Robert Mathew asked, is there anyway else to do this, does anybody know?

Director Weaver stated, there is no way to divide the property with out going through a subdivision.

Attorney Altman stated, and there is no way a subdivision can be approved on a 22’ access easement.

David Scott stated, and we are just talking about the road coming from Creek Side Court up to the property.

Charles Roth stated, no from 1250.

Several are talking at once again.

Attorney Altman stated, they are all in the same boat, the whole property owner.

Several are talking at once again.

David Scott stated, no body can sell their house until the road gets.

Gary Barbour stated, they can sell their houses, but they can add to.

David Scott asked, how are you going to borrow money if you don’t have access to your property?

Several talking at once again.

David Scott stated, if you go to sell now, you don’t actually have access to your house.

Attorney Altman stated, I bet you they do have like Mr. Sterrett by use and prescription of law that doesn’t mean that it is satisfied.

Robert Mathew stated, so if everybody else is in violation.

Attorney Altman stated, no we did not say violation.

Robert Mathew stated, well they are all.

Attorney Altman stated, there are questions about their access.

Robert Mathew stated, they are doing something that when I bought the property I can’t do.

Attorney Altman stated, you can continue your property the way it is right now.

Jay Clawson stated, you can sell him the whole 5 acres, which you say he can’t afford and it would be done. He could have a mortgage on the whole thing, but you can not divide that property for him to have his own lot and you can do what ever you want to. If you decided to sell that lot to her and she decides to build a house on it she could, which we are not trying to get ourselves in trouble by being able to allow another.

Robert Mathew stated, okay that is the only property out there beside going way back in the fields, even if it was that way it can never be subdivided again, if someone did build one more house is that just going to ruin everything out there.

Gary Barbour stated, is sets a precedent for the rest of the County and then you are going to have everyone and their brother coming in wanting a 20’ access to their property and you are going to end up with emergency issues and things like that.

Attorney Altman stated, we just made Mr. Jacobs modify his application to give the full access in there.

President Charles Anderson stated, hand that back there.

Charles Mellon stated, Doc, has there any of these other families ever had any kids go to school out of that locality.

Charles Roth stated, yes.

Charles Mellon stated, the County should maintain the roads for that school bus to get up there.

Charles Roth stated, the kids walk out to the school bus.

Charles Mellon stated, if they got little kids coming on somebody is going to have to make provisions for them to get on.

Charles Roth stated, a school bus can not turn around down there.

Jay Clawson stated, the only way that he could really do this, is if he got with the property owners all the way down the road and got an easement granted, someone on either side of the road to establish it as a true deeded 50’ right-of-way at least back to your property off of that road.

Attorney Altman stated, as they all should do.

Jay Clawson stated, I mean go all the way back to the back and grant that as a platted easement and then if you guys want to bring your road up to compliance to where it meets the county specs, then you can petition the County to accept it and then they will take care of it. Like any subdivision anybody who develops has to bring the road up before the county. The County is not in the business of developing roads. If all of you went together and did that then the County would accept it.

Charles Roth stated, the entire road is in such poor shape. The last rain we had mud. If you widen it, he has a pole barn that won’t exist. How close is the pole barn to the road. I mean it is right there.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you could go north.

Charles Roth stated, that guy owns the land North too.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I guess he is not in here tonight.

Charles Roth stated, he is not here. Everybody might be willing to give some.

Attorney Altman stated, that is the solution in this.

Charles Roth stated, everybody can give some of the land, but the entire road has got to be dug out and ballus brought in.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree with that.

Charles Roth stated, I don’t how many people are willing to give that up.

President Charles Anderson stated, originally you guys where talking about helping fix the road.

Robert Mathew stated, how much more am I going to be in to this. Its like my God I can’t afford anymore you know, I can’t. I thought we were good enough neighbors and every body else gets by with it and I don’t know why everyone is so against it. I don’t know why this is such a big issue, but it is and I don’t know I guess as a family we will have to figure out to do something else.

Greg Jacobs stated, isn’t if he wanted to do a deed restriction to his property which I’m not sure that the zoning ordinance allows it, but if the true concern of the board is that you have to follow the letter of the law because the ordinance is written, isn’t the plan development rezoning an option for him? That spells out exactly what he is wanting to do, which more or less is a deed restriction.

Attorney Altman stated, it would be, but it doesn’t give him any more access to his lot.

Greg Jacobs stated, isn’t the question really is it reasonable.

Attorney Altman stated, no the question is access to the lot

Greg Jacobs stated, but which is a single family home at 20’ access.

Attorney Altman stated, it isn’t just for one lot, it is for the whole thing.

Greg Jacobs stated, it is for a planned development, so I’m just asking if that, a plan development allows for a little more flexibility if the request is reasonable and its not just about the ordinance spells.

Steve Fisher stated, the only thing with a planned development that really the idea behind it is scheduled for a larger type development, like what you are doing verses…if we had, you know, if you think about all of the small access roads along both lakes you know, you could have everybody that has something a little bit different say, well I’ll just go with a planned development and that would be a real problem. That is what I see, I think that you are right in what you are saying but I don’t. For that 22’ I don’t think it will work. Keep in mind just because you get an easement for the, if you are able to get easement back to your property to make that 50’, that doesn’t mean you have to build a 50’ road to get back there. It just means that you have to have your neighbors agreeing that some how you have 50’ of access to get back to your property. Then you get together and say okay we need to improve our road and build it so the County will maintain it.

Robert Mathew stated, well you see the thing is that is never going to happen, we are out of there, they are going to continue to do what they do. I mean it is okay with them, it’s just that I’m there. If we were gone, it would be better for the whole community.

Steve Fisher stated, the other side of that is if they see something that they are going to be getting to because you are going to have to give for them to get something.

Several are talking at once.

Steve Fisher stated, that is what I mean I think that you are taking this a little short sided in thinking that well they have something to gain by your by cooperating with them too.

Robert Mathew stated, I have done everything to cooperate, I offered to help maintain the road.

Several are talking at once again.

Steve Fisher stated, I appreciate your predicament and there again it isn’t necessarily you or your family or what ever, you are thinking County wide the structure.

Todd Mathew asked, who would have the entire cost of bring that up, obviously because we are the ones wanting to develop.

President Charles Anderson stated, no not necessarily. Everybody should, I don’t know if you can get some community group together.

Todd Mathew stated, there are a lot of retired folks in the neighborhood.

President Charles Anderson stated, yea, but do they want to continue going down a road that you say is almost impassable at times. It sounds like a place I wouldn’t want to live anyway.

Todd Mathew stated, he came down and visited with us for a little while and he was talking about, well a lot of the problem is the water of course because basically the ditch that goes through there, the water runs right down the road. The last time I spoke to him he said something about the farmer back behind us should have the tile his field so where we wouldn’t get all of those acres of water down our property. I don’t know if anything else was said about that or not.

President Charles Anderson asked, you haven’t had anything go through the drainage board or something?

Pete Sorenson stated, I couldn’t speak for Ron, but I can’t speak for the drainage board either. However, most law and I’m sure Indiana is no different than any other farming states. All of the ones that I am familiar with indicate you have to be able to handle the water coming off of your land under its natural conditions. If it comes onto your land you have to keep that entrance open, if it goes off of your land you have to keep that exit open. You and divert it anywhere on your property if you want. The natural flow of that water coming into that subdivision is off the land that is higher than the subdivision and its natural flow is to that creek. It’s diverted already coming down along the edge of that road. That is fine, you can divert it down along that road as long as you want, but what that does at certain times when we have high rains like we have had recently and particularly in the spring time of the year. That keeps that road very soft, now Ron can come out there and look at it all he wants. The only time he will see it, is if he is out there after a long period of rain because you not only have low surface water you have underground water coming on to there.

President Charles Anderson asked, was he there last week?

Pete Sorenson stated, well it probably soften up last week, but it didn’t get near as soft as what it does in the spring.

President Charles Anderson asked, how many families does this involve all together?

Several answered 9.

President Charles Anderson asked, is almost everyone represented here?

David Scott asked, can you not come up with some kind of co-op out there. You are all going to have the same problem, if you go to see your house and a guy has to get a mortgage, you don’t have access easement or right-of-way, their not going to be able to get a mortgage.

Larry Stonebraker stated, there isn’t much point in doing something with the road, unless you do something with the drainage.

Several are talking at once.

Charles Roth stated, if you don’t do something with the water, it is not going to accomplish anything.

David Scott stated, it sounds like that needs to be done anyway.

Todd Mathew stated, it is never going to be fixed unless we subdivide it sounds like.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the commissioners have anything?

David Scott stated, we can not approve this with, he can’t put something in there that says he is not going to subdivide or build on anything else.

President Charles Anderson stated, the only thing I, if he subdivides it and made it in 2 lots and put restrictive convenants, but I don’t know if that would hold up in a court or not, and then we still have the 22’ road coming into.

David Scott stated, nothing is changing there not adding any houses or people or anything else.

Robert Mathew stated, hopefully down the road he wants to buy all of it, its just you know its not possible right now. I’m not saying 5 or 6 years down the road.

David Scott asked, can’t you and your son write up a legal agreement outside of this, and leave the subdivision alone. It allows him to pay.

Todd Mathew stated, that would be great, we have went through every aspect of this, we originally was going to see me the entire property for what I could afford and if I ever sold the property I had to give him his money back to him. That pretty much throws that out the window. There is just in a corner.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t know, if you sold that you would have to sell the land back to him and if you sold your house at that you wouldn’t have anything. If it was all just one house, heck with the size of the lot, you are just selling your house. You would have to split that land.

Todd Mathew stated, we have talked to the Bank about leasing the land for 100 years and the bank doesn’t want to do that either.

President Charles Anderson stated, but you could sell it back to him and jack up the interest rate and if you sold it back, capital gains. If you sold it back for the same amount he sold it to you and you jacked him up on interest would come out to be the same thing, and then you would be getting a higher rate.

Robert Mathew stated, we’ve weighted it out and we have done everything and the only thing we could do is if they could get that acre off, so they can have a house payment down the road. Like Ron Schmierer even talked about a retention pond there to come off of that field. He wants a little pond, but what I’m saying its still your, it would be a good place to do it and Ron Schmierer said it would be a great place to do a retention pond. If all of that water comes in there, can anyone tell me what is going to happen in 5 years from now? I have no idea what is going to happen in 5 years from now. All I know if right now and I know the last year and how much it is really costing me.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone on the board have any ideas.

Steve Fisher stated, other than what you were saying that some kind of an agreement between those two about how, whether he buys the whole 5 acres from him and then he rents that portion from him or back to him or what ever, I don’t know. I don’t see with the access how we are going to do that. I mean that is asking us basically.

David Scott stated, how can we check when we have to vote with this ballot.

Steve Fisher stated, I mean the way it is written how do you get around that.

David Scott stated, with a condition.

President Charles Anderson stated, the condition that they widen the road.

Several are talking at once.

Robert Mathew stated, somebody really wanted to they could have bought the 5 acres and Cecil and I have talked about this. His biggest fear when he didn’t know us, he thought someone was going to build 6 or 7 houses. Am I correct?

Cecil Callaway stated, that is right.

Robert Mathew stated, because he didn’t know us. You could build 6 or 7 houses if you fix that road up. If you were going to do subdivision you could do that road up to there and you could do 6 or 7 houses back there. You see what I’m saying though. These people didn’t us at the time and we went around and talked to them and this is where we are at now. We’ve got the house built, I just want to have the acre off, and I want the other 3 separated, plus maybe later on down the road he can afford, if he can’t, I don’t know what.

Steve Fisher stated, the other side of that and you said it earlier in the meeting, there is suppose to be 10 of us here tonight, there is 6 and so I mean you may have 4 other opinions that maybe interested in what you are saying.

Robert Mathew stated, are you saying I’m better off tabling this.

Todd Mathew asked, is there any kind of condition that the property can be sold to an adjoining neighbor the remaining 4 acres whatever is there.

President Charles Anderson stated, you could do that.

Todd Mathew stated, without having to worry about another house being built, would that even be legal.

Robert Mathew stated, see this is another thing we were thinking about doing, is buying 2 tenths of an acre from a neighbor and then I could subdivide at 3 and that is legal with the board. We are just a quarter acre shy, we are just not quite at 6 acres. We could have done this and it wouldn’t have matter. I understand that there are rules, you know what I’m saying.

Attorney Altman stated, that isn’t the situation, go get whatever and it looks different.

Robert Mathew stated, I understand the rule.

President Charles Anderson asked, what is the zoning on that?

Director Weaver stated, A-1.

There is discussion among the board members.

Jay Clawson stated, what he brought up in his last comment if you can find a neighbor to sell you a half acre or what ever and then just do it like, I don’t like the way people do these 3 acre, A-1 splits. That might be money ahead than trying to mess with the road, if you could negotiate with a neighbor to get you that much more land where you could just split it up that way. Legally we are bound by our ordinance and we are just trying to find a way to do it and we don’t have a way with you getting a different road back there.

Gary Barbour stated, the best way is still the same way that Steve described it by getting the 50’ easement and it benefits absolutely everybody and there is no money changing hands.

Several are talking at once.

Gary Barbour stated, maybe working with your neighbors to get everybody to allow the easement and find out what the real easement for the property is going in there. Everybody has got access to it and in order to have access to it there has got to be an easement someplace. If there isn’t one, if I owned property back there you can bet your butt that from a legal stand point I would want to know what easement or access is because that is my property back there. That to me is what you need to be doing, get the easement fix and get the 50’ and call it a day.

Robert Mathew asked, we just have to go 50’ in.

Several talking at once.

Larry Stonebraker asked, are these people grandfathered in anyway. I mean if they were here and have an access road before you had your subdivision laws in here aren’t they grandfathered in some kind of… It doesn’t affect me because my driveway goes out to 100, it is just the side of my property that comes out to the road. It seems to me that these people using this road all of this time that they certainly have legal access to their property.

Jay Clawson stated, he does for the one lot, but he wants to divide it into 2 lots.

Larry Stonebraker stated, no, the rest of these folks here. You are saying.

Steve Fisher stated, we are not saying.

Larry Stonbraker stated, someone is saying

Steve Fisher stated, what we are saying is we don’t know, you haven’t present any evidence of where the easement to your property is, so we really don’t know. That is something I guess that you guys have to prove or show to us. This is how we have right to get to our property, but we don’t know if you have it or not.

Several are talking at once.

President Charles Anderson stated, that is one way you can get and do that and get it subdivided. So do you want to table this until next month to see what you can do?

Robert Mathew stated, I hate to, but I know what is going to happen tonight.


#03-3 Gregory A. & Jerrielyn Jacobs; Requesting approval of a Planned Unit Development to be known as Windward on 3.97 acres. The property is located South of Monticello and Richey Lane off of Oakdale Road on the White County – Carroll County Line.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request?

Greg Jacobs stated, yes I’m Greg Jacobs.

President Charles Anderson asked, did you change what we asked you to change at the last meeting?

Greg Jacobs stated, yes, I even noted everything on the plat, only thing that we did was revision. My understanding is that everything is as we agreed at the meeting. The one thing that probably isn’t addressed that I thought of on the way over here was the dry well or dry hydrant that I agreed to put on the property to the South. I don’t believe that I addressed that. The other thing that we noted on that 40’ we tried to note it where to meet the boards concerns, but yet have the flexibility that we can move that 40’. That is worded that is why it is worded the way it is to give us flexibility and still meet the request of the board.

President Charles Anderson asked, what else did we have on there, we had about the?

Director Weaver stated, drive way width, setbacks and distances between dwellings, and locations of driveway, 40’ driveway with a 20’ surface, 20’ setback from the public road, 15’ setback surface from private drive.

President Charles Anderson stated, everything on that list you agreed to even, these houses you don’t know for sure on the rear foot property, exactly where they are going to go. Have we entered anywhere what the setbacks where to be.

Attorney Altman stated, 12’ between the buildings.

Director Weaver stated, it is suppose to be 12’ to 18’ between the building and both with firewalls.

Attorney Altman stated, and it doesn’t say with firewalls

Greg Jacobs stated, no it does not.

Several are talking at once.

Jay Clawson stated, we talked about anywhere they are that close 12’ to 18’, it was going to be brick, non-combustible exterior and once it is 18’ apart, you can put your regular siding on or what ever. That is what we agreed on in the last meeting.

Attorney Altman stated, and that is really not set out in.

President Charles Anderson asked, if we have to can we add that to what we have said. It needs to be on that.

Attorney Altman stated, that is the only thing to say is that it is not there. It needs to be on the final.

Director Weaver stated, something that I started to mention the last time was and I’m assuming that Greg is aware of this. A residential building that has more than 2 units in it does have to go through the state for a state release. Were you aware of that?

Greg Jacobs asked, the triplex has to go through the State?

Director Weaver stated, yes, and my point with this is they would help regulate the firewalls and that type of thing.

President Charles Anderson asked, can we pass this and have him add that to it or does it have to be added to it before?

Attorney Altman stated, well this is preliminary first ballot.

President Charles Anderson state, we can have him add it on everything we put down.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that would certainly, I think you ought to look at this real carefully and those things that we are talking about like the noncombustible surface can be added to that. I don’t see anything wrong with that on a preliminary plat that it be added to the final plat. As I see, he has got the private drive and it is optional, and if he doesn’t put it in there and use for access back there. It sure looks like you are going to have to have something go back there. If you do that it has got to be the 40’ just like it is set down, we are requiring, and obviously the surface has to meet the county specs of the subdivision ordinance. He says comply with White County standards on that. Private drive structure, so he is putting that in the way we are requiring.

Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman asked, Steve do you know anything on that, it seems you were in on that?

Steve Fisher stated, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Dennis Sterrett stated, backing out of the driveways, that would be a minimum of 20’.

Steve Fisher stated, I wasn’t at the last meeting.

Jay Clawson stated, yes the driveway has to be 20’.

Attorney Altman stated, he has it here.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yes, it is down here in the notes.

Attorney Altman stated, I’m not exactly positive that. It looks like to me that they are. The only one I might question a little bit is the very North one there, that says SF on East Side whether that is 20’, it probably is. It looks like it is 20’ on the plat.

Director Weaver stated, I have a note that says the boathouses need to be shown, I don’t remember the discussion on that.

Several are talking at once again. They are all going over the lists and the plats.

Greg Jacobs stated, my question was on the setback as to whether I would have to come back as far as putting covered boat slips in. Trying to keep not having to get a variance for covered boats. To be quite honest, I forgot about that. I don’t remember if it was a stipulation or not

You couldn’t address that without being shown. You couldn’t grant me permission if something wasn’t on paper.

Director Weaver stated, I have the rough draft of the minutes on the computer, do you want me to go print them out?

Dennis Sterrett stated, it looks like he has a triplex out there on July the 4.

Greg Jacobs stated, pardon me.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you had a triplex setting out there July the 4th. Wasn’t there 3 tents sitting out there.

Greg Jacobs stated, I don’t know. I wasn’t around.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you issue the permits for that?

Director Weaver stated, only if they are on the property. If they are on SFLECC property we don’t do anything.

President Charles Anderson stated, the boathouses won’t be on the.

Greg Jacobs stated, no, I don’t even think that they will, they way the property line goes, or where the land is at they will be in SFLECC. We don’t have our permits, we have been through the preliminary meeting.

President Charles Anderson stated, we will have restrictions on what you put on the property.

Greg Jacobs stated, my concerns at the last meeting was not having to go through a variance process, if I could prevent that. I wasn’t sure about what or when a variance was required to put a cover over the boat. Even if it is a covered dock it has to be approved by SFLECC, but does it require a setback variance.

Director Weaver stated, if it goes on your property.

Greg Jacobs stated, okay, so.

President Charles Anderson stated, we won’t know that until you get it done anyway or where you are going to locate them. We couldn’t tell you that.

Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t see your road, Doc is just pointing out on your roads. On Street C the width and the dimension and that sort of thing on this preliminary plat.

Greg Jacobs stated, that is spelled out on the Carroll County plat. You are right it is not labeled on this plat.

Attorney Altman asked, what is it on the Carroll County Plat?

Greg Jacobs stated, 50’.

Attorney Altman asked, and what is the surface?

Greg Jacobs stated, the surface is 20’.

President Charles Anderson asked, didn’t we agree to 40’?

Attorney Altman stated, no that is on a private drive.

Attorney Altman asked, where is the dry hydrant going to be?

Greg Jacobs stated, the dry hydrant actually is South, it is not shown, it actually goes another 500’ South. I do have a master plan that shows all of the property and for the secondary make sure that is identified. It is at the bottom of the hill, where you go 400’ South of 775/1250 entrance. You go down in the dip of the hill and then there is a road that goes back into the bay and is 100’ off of the road. Right there is where.

President Charles Anderson asked, what kind of lifts will be on that and how many.

Several answered at once.

President Charles Anderson asked, how many boat slips are you going to put in? Are you going to put in just enough for that area or are you going to rent to anyone back in that area?

Greg Jacobs stated, primarily for the residents until it builds out. They won’t be ready for the public until the land starts selling. We have room for, right now we have 65 boat slips and probably room for another 25.

Attorney Altman stated, the plat that showed the Carroll County involvement in that was on the Windward plan unit development White County that was submitted a long time ago. Sheet 1 of 5. I don’t know if there is anything else that would be submitted that would show where that was and I didn’t get all of the way down. As I understand Mr. Jacobs right in here is where you are talking about the dry hydrant. Is that right in this area?

Greg Jacobs stated, yes would be right.

Attorney Altman stated, and that is what you were looking at originally Steve when you looked at this. Had in mind and therefore if he did that he would be in compliance with what you were requesting.

Steve Fisher stated, it doesn’t have to be in compliance, I mean he is building something that nobody else has. I think it is great, I guess as far as the maintenance plan of up keep of the whole development, you probably want to keeping doing service on that hydrant. There maybe a requirement having someone once a year go down and blast that out. They get collect with bottom soot and that kind of stuff. That maybe something you want to do.

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing is if we did take that idea and incorporate it within the 12 and the 18’ and allowing that variance.

Several answered we understand that.

Jay Clawson asked, what is the status on drainage? Have you been to the drainage board?

Greg Jacobs stated, yes.

Dennis Sterrett asked, did I send you a letter?

Greg Jacobs stated, well I didn’t get a letter, but you told me that I would.

President Charles Anderson stated, the way I see it right now what we need to add here would be and it is not written on here anywhere about the 40’ private drive and 20’ surface, 20’ back up for public road, 15’ setbacks from the surface of the private drive.

Attorney Altman stated, it isn’t on there, but I think they comply.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yes it is on there.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay, which of these are not on there?

Greg Jacobs stated, I think the non-combustible building material should be spelled out on #5.

Attorney Altman stated, right and go to 18’.

President Charles Anderson stated, 18’ you don’t need any non-combustible material.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that needs to be spelled out and looking at the rest of the list here Diann. The location of course of the dry hydrant and that will be noted as part of this. Is there anything else you think ought to be added to this?

Dennis Sterrett stated, the right-of-way width on the Carroll County side.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, it needs to be noted.

Steve Fisher stated, the meeting I was at before, Don Ward was talking about did you change the 20’ pavement size. We had talked about it has been 2 months ago, so you were talking about 24’ at one time and now I see it is 20’.

Greg Jacobs stated, Don had said, there was discussion, it was preferred that we go to 24’ and we originally was going to curve gutter and then after we were dealing with the county highway, the Carroll County Highway. When we went to the White County Highway and 20’ is what they will approve, but the Carroll County ordinance requires with curb and gutter 26 or 28’ of pavement. What we did in address their concerns was parking, and the lack of parking, even though we meet all of the parking requirements in there being a lot of seasonal visitors because of the lake. What we did to address that as well as the parking, we went to a 50’ right-of-way and we have 20’ road surface with 10’ between the road surface and the sidewalk that will be grass. That was approved there to allow for parking off completely paved and not on the side walk. Don was comfortable.

Steve Fisher asked, can you make your roads non parking in a planned development? What if someone parks on that street?

Greg Jacobs stated, well we are going, I guess there isn’t a whole lot you can do, other than you know, tell them to move. We have talked to Carroll County Highway about address the concern even though the likelihood isn’t there. We asked, the Carroll County if they would post no parking signs in some specific areas, especially 775 not so concerned on our flow. You know you are going to get that type of situation if you don’t address it. WE feel like by adding 10’ of level parking area off the edge of the road that will go a long ways in preventing people from wanting to do that. Maybe or we hope back in our area in the White County area, that we allow enough parking, that you don’t have the need to do that. There will be some limited therefore areas. As it is I really think it will be view as, to be honest with you I will not be surprised if the 40’ going back in there from time to time had some of that situation. I don’t know how we can prevent it, other than we can post signs, but people will do as they want.

Steve Fisher stated, I think the signs are a good idea. Most people to pay attention to the signs.

Attorney Altman stated, on the dry hydrant we talked about maintenance by the Association of that, I gather that would be part of what your association would be doing. It is a part of it. Its got to be done.

Jay Clawson asked, when most people have these dry hydrant I have seen different points in the county to where people have them and the fire department can go in and use. They can go in and use the dry hydrant, you don’t have a problem with that. Because if the other fire departments know they would probably say that this is open to like Chalmers Fire Department would actually come down and do the maintenance. They like to have the accessibility to these stations through the county that they would probably come down there, hook water to it, and blow it out.

President Charles Anderson asked, are there anymore questions about this plat? We don’t have to note everything. What else did we have on there, we had to add the?

Attorney Altman stated, I have the Carroll County dimensions on the roads, location of the dry hydrant, maintenance, and the non-combustible material added to #5. Denny what else.

President Charles Anderson stated, the setbacks that we made do they, those are just standard setbacks for L-1.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I just have the Carroll County roadway showing.

Attorney Altman asked, does anyone else have anything. I’m just trying to run this fairly.

Director Weaver stated, I have building separation on there is if it is over 18’ do we need the firewalls.

Attorney Altman stated, that would be continuing #5. The non-combustible between 12 and 18’ and then 18’ there is no restriction.

President Charles Anderson asked, but should it be spelled out what the setbacks are? We are the ones that determined the setbacks.

Greg Jacobs stated, he didn’t do that right this much as much as the setback lines on the plat.

Director Weaver stated, it really helps us in the office when they are noted.

Greg Jacobs stated, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, I put that down as my #4 that setbacks are L-1 to be put on the plot.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Primary Approval Request for a Planned Unit Development to be known as Windward located in Union Township South of Monticello located on the White-Carroll County line, was approved by a vote of 6 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.


President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda is business.

Jay Clawson asked, do we want to act on this or look over what you presented to us? All of these changes.

Director Weaver stated, that was something that was brought to my attention and that I never supplied the board with. That is a copy of the building inspector’s ordinance. That is just for your information.

Jay Clawson stated, so maybe we should just punch it and put it in our ordinance books.

Dennis Sterrett stated, is this the county ordinance?

Several answered yes.

Jay Clawson made a motion to adjourn.

Gary Barbour seconded the motion.


The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission