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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, December 8, 2003, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, David Rosenbarger, Don Ward, Gregory Bossaer, and Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver

Visitors Attending were: Rodney Tatman, Roy Tatman, Gene Tatman, Charles R. Mellon, Joe Smith, Marita Smith, Jeffery McGuire, Susan Snyder, Jack Martin, Fred Shidler, Sue Penn, Bill Penn, Hal Koekenbert, Don Knop, John Copas, Matthew Zook, Nancy Downey, Tarquin Rayfield, Dave Anderson, Paula Norwood and John R. Roscka

The meeting was called to order by Vice-President David Rosenbarger and roll call was taken. Greg Bossaer made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the October 14, 2003 meeting. Motion was seconded by Don Ward and carried unanimously.


#830 Carl E. & Lou Ann Hites; The property is located on Lot 29 in John C. Karr’s Addition, in the Town of Buffalo at 311 S. State Road 39. This was tabled from the October 14, 2003 meeting.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-2 to B-2. This request is being referred back to the Area Plan Commission Board by the County Commissioners for approval of commitment.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do we have anyone representing this request?

Attorney Altman stated, by our rules failure to appear for 2 consecutive meetings the rule says that the petition shall be dismissed. I asked, Diann before and she has heard nothing. This is the rule that we operate under, accordingly by operations of our rules this matter is dismissed.


#836 Dane R. & Linda C. Davis; The property is located on 4.00 acres, South of Monticello at 3731 S. Freeman Road. Tabled from the November 10, 2003 meeting.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-2 to A-1.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, this has been tabled until the January meeting.


#838 Donna S. Durflinger; The property is located on .539 of an acre, West of the Town of Monon at 808 W. State Road 16. Tabled from the November 10, 2003 meeting.

Violation: None

Request: She is requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-2.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing Donna Durflinger?

Attorney Altman stated, this has been tabled until the January meeting.


#840 White Rock Family Partnership; The property is located on 17.807 acres, except 1.002 acres, more or less, North of Monticello at 1922 N. West Shafer Drive.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 & B-1 to B-2.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing White Rock Partnership?

Attorney Altman stated, this is also tabled until the January meeting.


#841 Jack C. & Fern H. Martin; The property is located on 5.673 acres, Southeast of Brookston on the Southeast corner of County Road 1100 S. and County Road 200 E.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-1.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing Jack Martin?

Jack Martin stated, I’m Jack Martin.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do the Commissioners have any questions?

Greg Bossaer asked, do you intend to subdivide this property in to lots.

Jack Martin stated, yes sir.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, does this run on 1100 South, is that the full distance.

Kind of in an L shape.

Jack Martin stated, yes. It is right around the two corners.

Rex Hendryx stated, I’m Rex Hendryx. This is kind of rough draft. Right now we have plans to have 6 lots running on 1100. Most of these lots are going to be on 200 East and 1100 South. We were going to develop back in there, but that kind of went fuie and now we are going to do 3-acre lots.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, this parcel actually goes clear up to the apple barn.

Jack Martin stated, just short of it.

Don Ward asked, is there some way you can bring the two lots here out to 200 East rather than 1100 South? To many outlets 1100 is really busy. It is going to get busier. There are already a lot of houses out there.

Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, I will tell you that there are a lot of concerns about that and quite frankly the Commissioners turned down a rather larger subdivision for somewhat the same reasons of this access problem. That wasn’t all outlets on main roads, they were just concern about outlets and proper control of them.

Rex Hendryx stated, so in other words, we are talking about a neighboring subdivision.

Several are talking at once.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there anymore questions from the commissioners? Any questions from the public?

Gene Tatman stated, I’m Gene Tatman. I have a livestock operation right beside it. What is going to happen to that?

Attorney Altman asked, tell us about your livestock operation?

Gene Tatman stated, it is on the 40 acres on the side of it to the East of it.

I have got cattle, hogs, a plow to finish.

Attorney Altman asked, how large is your operation?

Gene Tatman stated, 350 head of hogs, 35 head of cattle.

Attorney Altman asked, so you are finishing out 300 head a year?

Gene Tatman stated, no that is what is on hand right now.

Attorney Altman asked, how many a year do you run through there?

Gene Tatman stated, I have a 70-head sow.

Attorney Altman asked, do you run that full time?

Gene Tatman stated, yes.

Attorney Altman asked, how many pigs to you feed out a year?

Gene Tatman stated, roughly 1500.

Jack Martin stated, his pig operation isn’t even near this area. His operation is in the South End of the orchard.

Gene Tatman stated, but I spread my manure right next to it, the road. I have already had complaints from the EPA about the smell because people didn’t like it. So they had them out to visit me. They jerked water samples off of the creek that goes to the….

Attorney Altman asked, Moots Creek?

Gene Tatman stated, yes.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, what would be the restrictions if he was to ever expand? Isn’t there a minimum footage from a hog barn?

Attorney Altman stated, there is, but it depends on the size of the unit and whether it would be considered a confine feed lot as to whether Mr. Tatman’s.

Greg Bossaer stated, that would not be a confinement according to IDEM’s rules.

Attorney Altman stated, if he was to get bigger or if somebody else out there in that agriculture area decide that they wanted to have something bigger there and I don’t know what the Lehe, that is further away, but not to further away.

Jack Martin stated, at this time we have no plans to develop that part down to the orchard at all. This is just an experiment, our best lots will be along the two roads. Fortunately the wind comes out of the Southwest away from the pig farm, for the most parts.

Attorney Altman stated, obviously it is a problem.

Gene Tatman asked, what about the septic systems out there? Well you know that the Nicholas addition got septic problems.

Attorney Altman stated, tell us about it.

Gene Tatman stated, tell you what you know or what you don’t know? You already know. Godlove is out there every month pumping septic outs. They were just out there Saturday pumping septic out. The ground is no good. You even got septic that lie only 6 inches below the ground. In the summer time the guy gets stuck in it with his lawn mower. That is how close it is to the ground.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, isn’t that something that the County Board of Health will determine whether the lot would handle the septic system or not?

Attorney Altman stated, that is true.

Gene Tatman stated, well if it doesn’t handle it now, your going to tell me that it will handle it after they look at it. They are supposed to look at every one of them to start with.

Don Ward stated, they determine you would have to have a bigger lot.

Greg Bossaer stated, you have to have the leach tested and find out how large the leach bed has to be and may have less lot.

Gene Tatman stated, well it is just like over at Nicholson some of them don’t have any problems and some of them do, but the ones who put the raised mounds in create the problems for the other people. Everybody can not put in a raised system and make it work. It may work for a short time, it isn’t going to work forever. My main concern is my live stock. What is it going to do to me?

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, it is preexisting, someone builds a house they can see that hog barn.

Gene Tatman stated, do I have to keep having them out there to check me for the odor when a neighbor complains about it.

Attorney Altman stated, I wouldn’t doubt the answer to that is yes. I’d like to tell you something different, but no matter whether this happens or not. I think that is the answer.

Jay Clawson asked, there is a lot of houses in the area already.

Gene Tatman stated, the same ones that are complaining though, they new I was there and new I had that smell before they moved there. They even told them that.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess what I’m saying is you need to make your case and you have and we hear that. You need to go to the Commissioners and do the same thing just like they need to do the same thing.

Gene Tatman stated, I mean there is a lot of heavy traffic that runs that road. The more outlets you put the more problems you’ve got. I understand that. I don’t have any problem with people building houses as long as it is not affecting me personally. I have got sons there that make a living off of that farm and we don’t want to be setting out there with all of these buildings because we can’t use them.

Attorney Altman stated, thank you very much.

Director Weaver stated, I would like to mention to the board, we just had a rezoning request I believe a similar request to go from A-1 to an R-1 for a subdivision and one of the concerns that the Commissioners had was because of the septic systems and not being near public sewers. That was something I wanted to mention to you.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, this request is just for one lot.

Several answered no.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, he is asking for one parcel right now. He is not asking for a subdivision right now.

Director Weaver stated, that is what the request was previously.

Several are talking at once.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there anymore questions from the audience?

Rex Hendryx stated, we are talking about rezoning 5.67 acres. That is the issue here.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, that is what I was getting at it is one parcel of land rezoned.

Gene Tatman stated, I might say that we have operated out of that orchard for 33 years and we have never had a complaint from the neighbor about our operation. We do every thing at times, we don’t spray when it is going to the West. We do not intend to violate what we have done in the past.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 2 affirmative and 4 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action, next Monday morning.


#842 John R. & Teri D. Roscka; The property is located on 1.888 acres, East of Monticello on the South side of U.S. Highway 24 directly West of 6368 E. U.S. Highway 24.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from B-1 to R-1.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing this request?

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think they are. They called me at home, and he said he had to go and that he would appreciate if we would put his rezoning to the end of the line in this matter, and I told him I would ask that for him.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, we will put this one back then.

After all other requests were heard Vice President Rosenbarger announced this request again.

John Roscka stated, I’m here.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there any questions from the Commissioners?

Don Ward asked, you want to walk to work?

John Roscka stated, yes.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, anyone in the public have any comments?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 6 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to White County Commissioners for their action next Monday.


#843 Jeffrey W. McGuire; The property is located on Lot 19A & 20A in O’Connor’s Boulevard Addition, in the City of Monticello at 921 O’Connor Boulevard.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-3 to B-2.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing Jeffrey McGuire?

Jeffrey McGuire stated, I’m Jeffrey McGuire.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there any questions from the Commissioners?

Greg Bossaer asked, do you want to use it as a Doctor’s office again?

Jeffrey McGuire stated, I’m not quite sure what I want to use it for, a small business.

It has been a medical office in the past and I believe the zoning changed, not me. It was zoned originally for a medical office building and when I went to sell the building, I was told that the zoning had changed and it was residential and that I couldn’t reopen my office. I don’t think I did anything wrong.

Director Weaver stated, what we found when we researched this property the old ordinance allowed a doctor’s office to be in an R-3, which is a multi-family zoning as long as it had an approved special exception. This property did go through that process, but when we adopted the new ordinance it took it out of compliance.

Jeffrey McGuire stated, I wish I would have been notified at that time, so my listing would not have been incorrect. When you change your rules you should let the person know that he is not zoned properly.

Director Weaver stated, we do advertise when we are adopting a new ordinance.

Jeffrey McGuire stated, I received no notification.

Director Weaver stated, we put it in the newspaper.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, so it fell out of compliance because it set empty?

Director Weaver stated, yes, and it is no longer in compliance with this ordinance.

Attorney Altman stated, it would be grandfathered, if it continued to be used that way.

Jeffrey McGuire stated, it was used in the interim after I left town as a small business. Unbeknownst to me the zoning had changed. For a period of time I was in violation.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, does anyone in the audience have any questions? Commissioners any questions?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 6 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to City Council for their action, next Monday.


#844 Tarquin Rayfield; The property is located on 0.24 acres, more or less East of Monticello between County Road 650 East and Riverview Cemetery, on the South side of Riverview Road.

Violation: None

Request: He is requesting to rezone from A-1 to L-1.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone representing Tarquin Rayfield?

Tarquin Rayfield stated, I’m Tarquin Rayfield. I’m the owner of the sub-lot.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions?

Don Ward asked, do you have water and sewer there?

Tarquin Rayfield, no and I’m not aware of when the sewer line is suppose to come in. The idea for the rezoning was to potentially put a residential home there, or a cottage type lake front style, and if there was not sewer or water available we would use a holding tank for sewer. I wouldn’t approach the building office without that type of design.

Director Weaver stated, I did some checking on the public sewers on when they are going to go in and they are estimating 7 years.

Jay Clawson asked, will there be any parking on this lot, most residence have to have a minimum of two parking spaces on here.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, correct, that is a real good question and in fact if you look at the topography of the other homes that are on that street they actually did that with the same type of hill structure and they have two car parking with 60’ lots right in the area about 250’ away. The idea is a small retaining wall and then do a small excavation to make a flat parking lot

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, are there any comments from the public? Is there a difference in lot size from an A-1 to an L-1?

Director Weaver stated, A-1 is a minimum of 1 acre with a 150’ width.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, that is why it isn’t an A-1 now. It doesn’t meet the specifications. It might make more sense to be it he L-1 classification. The idea is of course to meet the building laws in order to accomplish such a task.

Attorney Altman stated, I hear a couple of things being talked about here. Let me try to at least suggest a potential solution. I hear you talking about a modification a limitation of use in the way of how you handle the septic system. What we usually do when somebody comes to us with that sort of a request, we suggest that they prepare what is called a commitment. It says on paper that I am committing my use to this restriction and with that restriction I would like the board and then ultimately the Commissioners to review your request and look at it with that restriction on it. I think that quite frankly I would suggest that your best way to proceed right now would be to prepare that commitment and table your request tonight and prepare the commitment and present it next month. Then the board can review that and then I think that you would have a much better chance at getting a positive vote here and maybe a positive matter.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, okay that sounds fine.

Jay Clawson stated, we have never had a request on this type of property that is so vital and with our lake clean up, we have tried to be sensitive to that. Can we ask that there be some sort of engineering. Can we by law ask him to have that. To state that is stable enough to be zoned for a residential application?

Attorney Altman stated, that is a reasonable request.

Jay Clawson stated, then we can have that to make our determination because we are not engineers and I don’t think. I mean Don is, but I don’t know if you can determine the soil. It needs to have some one professional look at it.

Attorney Altman asked, do you understand what he is requesting.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, yes I do, and I thought that would fall under what the building department would allow as a conceivable building lot.

Attorney Altman stated, I think what you are seeing is a concern now and maybe this would be the second thing that you bring back to us. If you need more time we will allow that.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, sure, I just need to know if you want a soil engineer or a design.

Don Ward stated, you really need a soil engineer at least an over view of what you are going to do.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, okay, I’m looking for a zoning change here. I’m not looking for you to approve the building because that falls into the building department.

Attorney Altman stated, we aren’t talking about the building, it’s whether the lot can support any building.

Jay Clawson stated, you can tell us this and then you could turn around and sell it and somebody thinks they can build on it and then find out from a building inspector that you can’t build on this lot and then it is virtually worthless piece of property.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, sure they don’t want to be buying a picnic spot, I understand that.

Attorney Altman stated, okay we have two things. Is there anything else?

Director Weaver asked, what are we looking for on this commitment? When this commitment comes in what am I suppose to be looking for?

Don Ward stated, the stability of the embankment as much as anything.

Director Weaver asked, isn’t that what the soil engineer is going to do?

Don Ward stated, that is what they do and it would be up to them to make the decision. You can build on it.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, the general design in that area is to make the retaining wall the back of the house foundation. That is the best way to make that work. Once you start with that wall and you don’t push to much dirt around you aren’t going to have any run off into the lake.

Attorney Altman stated, in the commitment he is just going to have to develop how he is going to handle the septic system. Whatever that is and put it down in black and white. Then get approval one way or the other from the board and then ultimately the Commissioners.

Director Weaver stated, the septic system isn’t that something he is going to deal with the Health Department on. He is going to have to have a septic permit before we will issue a building permit.

Attorney Altman stated, that is right, but he is going to make sure that he has a lot to even do that with.

Several talking at once.

Don Ward stated, we need to know what type of home, where you are going to put the well, an idea of where it is going to be. What kind of parking area, and things like that. Just get the soil engineer to tell you something about the embankment. That is really the first step.

Tarquin Rayfield asked, would that be a recommendation to hire an architect.

Don Ward stated, that would probably be a good idea or. Show him what you want to do.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, okay, there will be a lot a perimeters and not only one individual does this kind of thing. I would have to hire 3 people to cover the soil, architect, well.

We all know these things are doable, but can I get it rezoned and then work with the building department to accomplish this properly. One without tearing up the neighborhood and second without ruining the water and the lake, and thirdly the potential soil run off. I think it is very doable. It shouldn’t take me $2,000 and hire out 3 people to prove you gentlemen that I can do that.

Attorney Altman stated, bring it back. If you have any questions, call me.

Tarquin Rayfield stated, okay I will do that.


#845 Matthew Zook; The property is located on Lot 12 in Hughes Business Park Subdivision, South of Brookston at 100 W. 1250 S.

Violation: None

Request: He is requesting to rezone from B-2 to I-1.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, is there anyone here representing Matthew Zook?

Matthew Zook stated, I’m Matthew Zook.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do the Commissioners have any questions?

Director Weaver stated, part of these lots have been rezoned, part are I-1 and some are still B-2 zoning.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, so we more or less have I-1 and B-2 in the whole thing out there.

Jay Clawson asked, so you are going to have this pole building here and the storage unit behind it and all of that is your part of the lot.

Matthew Zook stated, yes that is all apart of my lot.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, so it goes clear out to 1250?

Matthew Zook stated, yes it does.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, does anyone in the audience have any questions?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 6 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to County Commissioners for their action next Monday morning.


Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, we have an appeal of a fine on Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith stated, I’m Joseph Smith.

Attorney Altman stated, I just stated for the record that November 3, 2003 Diann Weaver the Executive Director imposed a fine as set forth in the letter. The property is not properly zoned for the use. The use is being a trash disposal business. The record is set up, I trust you have a copy of all of this?

Joseph Smith stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, I just want to make sure this doesn’t have to take a lot of time, but I want to make sure that Mr. & Mrs. Smith that you are aware of what was filed and what the board members have before us. I think we are now ready to listen to your appeal of your fine.

Joseph Smith stated, I’ve never done this before, so I’m a little nervous. What is the definition here of a trash disposal business. I have a pickup truck with a 3-yard dumper unit in the back of it and it has a rack up on it. When I go out and pick up my stops and then I go to the land fill and dump it and then I bring it back home or I did. I’m now taking some where else, but I would bring it back home and if there was anything on it, it would be less then probably what everyone else has on there house the day before trash day. I had a one ton truck there that I did have some trash in it because I had picked it up and didn’t have room for on the other truck and it was there for a couple of weeks. There was probably two loose yards of trash in that. It was all contained all bagged. I never put anything on the ground. I’ve got nice property and nice neighborhood and I don’t want to mess it up. I had it contained in bags and in my trucks. If I set a 6 yard dumpster out there and had Waste Management come out and dump it and then I could throw my trash in it. If I had one of the other guys dump it and they would have a lot of once month pickups. It would be no worse then, I actually have a better situation with my truck and dumping it 2 or 3 times a week. If it is a trash facility, then every dumpster behind every restaurant is a trash facility and they are subject to a fine. I don’t understand I guess what the deal is.

It is a dodge ram 250 pickup truck with a dumper cart in it. I use to have a trash business and I do know the difference between a trash facility and that would be like a landfill at Buffalo or the dump station down in Delphi. That is a place where they bring trash to it and then they use it to transfer trash with. A pickup truck, I have a hard time accepting that is a trash facility. It is a unit, but I don’t think that it is a trash facility.

Jay Clawson asked, are you storing business vehicle equipment on a residential lot.

Joseph Smith stated, a pickup truck, well yeah you put your van there when you take it from your store. I know I see a NAPA truck setting just down the street and I’ve got 4 neighbor’s right there beside me that have burn barrels and they are lighting that thing up all of the time. Should I start burning will I be, that isn’t right, I don’t agree with the burning at all. It is nasty. I think the fine is excessive I guess, if you have to impose it you can, but I think $500 for my pickup truck. It puts a hardship on us now because we have one vehicle that we have to have there. Our van that we go places in and before when Rita wanted to go shopping or something she could do that and I had a truck that I could get in and take care of what ever I needed to do. Now we don’t have that. I’ve got the two trucks. I took the signs off of the ton truck because I thought I could park it there because I’m not going to be using it. It is strictly an emergency back up truck incase the other one quits.

Attorney Altman asked, so you had two trucks?

Joseph Smith stated, I had two trucks. One is a 1 ton with a dump bed on it.

Attorney Altman asked, these are pictures of them right?

Joseph Smith stated, I haven’t seen the pictures. Yes that is it. On the one I took the signs off of it. He is pointing out the trucks to he board from the pictures. I still don’t understand I see signs on vehicles all over town with personal business vehicles. It is up to you guys.

Attorney Altman stated, looking at the pictures that there is, the issue really comes down to the fact that on this site.

Joseph Smith stated, I have no problem, I’m not going to put a trash company on that site any bigger than this. If it grows into something bigger than something I can handle in a pickup. I will go somewhere else with a better situation. I had a business, I had a trash business for 13 years. I know how to run a bigger operation and we are doing this for the extra income and that is basically it. I enjoy the business.

Attorney Altman stated, I can only tell you that looking at the two photos here that it is much more than you are zoned to be. I’m not telling you where you ought to be in our zoning, but I will tell you given the zoning that you have, the use far exceeds it as shown in the two photos. I will tell you that for the attorney for the board.

Joseph Smith stated, I don’t have a problem not keeping the truck there, you guys don’t want them there. They are moved they are parked on another lot inside a building.

Attorney Altman stated, as long as it is properly zoned.

Joseph Smith asked, for what, it is an Industrial zoning. I know you are suppose to have a trash exemption, but I still going back to a pickup truck with a dumper cart on it. If I was having trash trucks and I need somewhere to put 6-yard dumpsters or 2 yard, like I use to have. I don’t intend to get back into that. A pickup truck, I don’t know.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand what you are saying, I understand you are not at the size that. I would suggest that any storage of trash in an R-2 of any sort that is business related violates the ordinance.

Joseph Smith asked, so a person can’t even have a dumpster behind their house?

Attorney Altman stated, as running a business, I’m talking about. If I had it and it was appropriate to have it for whatever reason, it is different and it wasn’t running a business. It is the two together that goes beyond what the ordinance allows.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, he is advertising this address as the business.

Joseph Smith stated, no I’m not, we have a PO Box number. We don’t advertise that business. I want no body bringing trash to my back door or dropping it off. I don’t want any body bring it to my back door and put it in my truck. I don’t want people coming to my house for that business because it is not, I don’t want that, if they want me to haul their trash, I will get in my truck and drive out there. I will pick it up and then haul, but to come there and make payments, I want them to send it to a PO Box. That is what we have done.

Attorney Altman stated, we aren’t addressing that, we were talking about what we see in the pictures. That is a violation of our ordinance. I’m not telling you that you can’t operate your business they way you want to and do it properly. I hope you can. I’m saying that this is a violation. Our Director has made that determination already and what before the board is whether the fine is to stay, modify or otherwise.

Joseph Smith stated, I have moved the vehicles off the property, so you guys can make up your mind on what you want to do with it.

Attorney Altman asked, is there anything else from the board? You need to modify this or what ever. You need to make a motion, and a second and vote on it. You have to vote on the appeal.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do the Commissioners have a suggestion to make motion, thoughts?

Don Ward asked, what do you guys think about the fine?

Attorney Altman stated, Dave just asked, Diann if he has been cooperative in this matter and Diann said yes.

Director Weaver stated, yes, he has been cooperative.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that is real important.

Several talking at once.

Don Ward stated, I make a motion that we fine him a $100 fine.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, do we have a second?

Gary Barbour stated, I will second it.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, all in favor say “aye”.

Everyone replied “aye”.

Attorney Altman asked, you understand what has happened?


Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, we have a second appeal of a fine for Steven M. & Susan Snyder of 504 South St, Brookston. Is there anyone representing?

Susan Snyder stated, I’m Susan Snyder.

Steven M. Snyder, I’m Steven M. Snyder.

Attorney Altman asked, you are not represented by your Attorney?

Susan Snyder stated, no, Mr. Little’s mother will be operated on tomorrow in Chicago and he went to Chicago after he left his office tonight to be with his mother.

Attorney Altman stated, I didn’t know that. If he had called in for a continuance we certainly would have given him one. Do you want to continue this?

Susan Snyder stated, I would just assume to do it tonight if possible.

Attorney Altman stated, we can proceed, but I’m trying to tell you that kind of circumstance is totally appropriate to ask for and we would grant you a time next month, so that you could come in and have your lawyer with you.

Susan Snyder stated, no, that is all right. I talked to Bob today and he said he could not come tonight. I would just assume get this over with.

Attorney Altman stated, so you want to proceed on your own. Okay then state your case.

Susan Snyder stated, the only thing I have is the letter that I received. I didn’t receive it, it was sent to my husband. When I went into the office the day I received the letter, I asked, why I didn’t get one too. They said that my name was not on the property, therefore I didn’t receive the letter. My name is on the taxes and my name is on the deed and everything else. Normally I don’t open his mail, but when I saw it was from Area Plan I opened it to see what was going on because I was not aware that there was a problem. I thought it was one of the neighbors.

Then it says it has been brought to my attention you have changed a garage into an apartment. What was done on the garage was enclosing a porch. There is no water, no bathroom, no kitchen, nothing in this garage building and there still isn’t to this day. It is not livable. I kind of wonder how enclosing a cement slab into a porch turned it into an apartment.

Attorney Altman asked, are people living in there.

Susan Snyder stated, no.

Attorney Altman asked, sleeping in there?

Susan Snyder stated, yes there were two girls and the situation was that my son and my daughter-in-law live in this home and they have two young children. We were going over and babysitting with the kids late at night between 10:30 – 1:00 in morning from the time when one parent went to work and the other one came home. No way we are going to have a 3 year old and 1 year old by themselves at night in a home. We both worked, we both had to be at work by 7:00 a.m. and these girls came down and took care of the boys at night. There was not an extra bed in the house, so they set a bed up out there and that is where they slept. They do their cooking, or they did, they bathed in the house because there is no water in that building. There is no stove, nothing it is a storage building.

Greg Bossaer asked, there is no heat at all?

Susan Snyder stated, there is a forced air heater that we put in there 8 years ago when we bought it, so they could use it as a shop in the winter time to do stuff.

Attorney Altman asked, but it was used for somebody’s residence and they were inhabiting it, they were sleeping in there?

Susan Snyder stated, there was a bed in there.

Attorney Altman asked, people were sleeping in there?

Susan Snyder stated, yes, but we also have a shed out there and if we put a bed in it and they wanted to go out and sleep in it in the summer time because it was too hot in the house. I don’t think that would make the barn an apartment.

Attorney Altman asked, how long were they sleeping in there?

Susan Snyder stated, I do not live there.

Matt Snyder stated, maybe 5 months.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, did they have another residence or was this their primary place to stay?

Susan Snyder stated, no they stayed in the house with them. They used their phone, computer, and they stayed in the house with them, when they were not sleeping.

Attorney Altman stated, there are a couple other things I need for you to talk about. Getting building permits for the fence, you don’t have a building permit for the fence?

Susan Snyder stated, no we have to go before the BZA board we are on the January 15. We are scheduled for that.

Attorney Altman stated, there is a fence there and you do not have a building permit for it.

Susan Snyder stated, no we do not. We called before the fence went up to area plan and they said that we did not need a permit for that.

Attorney Altman asked, whom did you talk to?

Matt Snyder stated, I don’t know.

Susan Snyder stated, they called twice, who they talked to I don’t know. It was under 48” so they didn’t need a building permit for that. When they put it up, then I went up to get the building permit, I went up the day I received this letter. I got the request for what we had to do and within 3 days we had the plans up there for the building permit for the fence and the porch. When I went up then that was on a Friday when I went up on Tuesday to pick it up they said they would give me the permit for the porch, but not for the fence because it was, we could not determine the road right-of-way. How far it was from the road right-of-way. So they said I needed to get a variance in order to have it closer than 10’ to the road right-of-way. They said the road right-of-way was a foot inside the sidewalk, which meant we would have to have the fence back 11’ from the sidewalk. That would put it 9’ in front of the house. I applied for the variance, we had a surveyor come out and do a survey and I applied for the variance and I do not have a permit. I have a sign up that says we have applied for a variance. I’m not sure what that has to do with an apartment.

Attorney Altman stated, it is a violation, building without a permit. That is what it has to do with it.

Susan Snyder stated, according to this the fine was for changing my garage into an apartment.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand, they are both violations. That is all I’m trying to say.

Susan Snyder stated, okay. I went in and did everything that I could do within 3 days of getting that letter.

Attorney Altman asked, are the two girls still sleeping in there?

Susan Snyder stated, no.

Attorney Altman asked, when did they stop?

Matt Snyder stated, 4 days ago.

Attorney Altman stated, I’m asking questions for the record, someone else ask questions.

Susan Snyder stated, I’m not sure setting a bed up there so they had a place to sleep while they were helping watch the kids and like I say, it says I need to bring it back. It is still a storage area. There is a washer and dryer and the stuff is still there.

Several talking at once.

Matt Snyder stated, everything is still the same. I’m living at the address and everything was in that building before they started sleeping in there. Nothing changed, only they brought cloths they could change into and sleep in there.

Attorney Altman stated, I will read from the zoning ordinance, Dwelling, page 8. A permanent building or portion there of designed in using exclusively for residential occupancy. I don’t have a lot more to say other than the record is before you.

Director Weaver stated, I was just letting the board know we do have Dave Anderson the building inspector here. He is the one who originally went to the property and we have Paula Norwood, secretary from my office here. She is who dealt with the Snyders when they first came into the office.

Attorney Altman asked, Dave would you please come up and tell us a bit what you saw when you went to the premises?

Dave Anderson stated, the 14th of August I went to the 504 S. South Street and I believe it was his wife is who I talked to. Standing between the house and the garage in question the door was open to the garage. There was an addition built on the garage. The porch addition the door was open inside and it appeared to have a chair, couch, something setting there. I did not enter it. It seems if I remember that there was carpet on the floor. I just informed them you can’t have two residences on the same property. If they attached it to the house it would be different, but it was not and they asked me options. What can they do. First of all the addition part of it said you had to get a permit for that if you do any further building you would have to have permits for that also. I was informed that they were just sleeping in it. There is no running water, not a full fledge dwelling, but they were still using it as sleeping quarters. I just informed them to contact Area Plan and you can’t be living in it.

Attorney Altman asked, that was in August of this year?

Dave Anderson stated, yes.

Attorney Altman asked, have you had any other contact with this premise or these people?

Dave Anderson stated, no.

Attorney Altman asked, does the board have any questions for Mr. Anderson?

Don Ward asked, you said you saw carpet on the floor?

Dave Anderson stated, there was a chair on the one side the door was open and the light was on and it was starting to rain. The two ladies that were using this for sleeping quarters, I was standing there talking to them. I think Matt was there and I started speaking to them, but I did not go in. It appeared that something was set up and they just admitted that they were sleeping in it, so I did not go in.

Attorney Altman asked, do the Snyder’s have any questions for Mr. Anderson?

Paula do you want to come up and speak about the experience you had, so we can better understand what the situation is.

Paula Norwood stated, Mrs. Snyder and her son, and daughter in law all came in on the 18th. Basically they were just getting information. They wanted information on what they had to do to get the building permit for the screened in porch and the fence this was in response to the letter that we had sent them. The daughter in law informed me that there were people staying in the garage and I asked her what they were doing. She said that they were sleeping in there and that there was no running water and that they came into the house to take their showers, but that they did everything else in the garage. I told them everything that we needed for the building permit, told them that the people had to move out of the garage and bring it back into proper use. The daughter in law asked me if the two people living there could move into their main house. I told them yes as long as they were not living in the garage they could live in the main house.

On September 26, 2003 Mrs. Snyder and her son came back in to apply for the permit for the fence and the enclosed porch. We pulled out all of the paper work and told them it would be ready the following day after 12:00 and then we started discussing the fence. They did not know where the road right-of-way was and I was not sure where it was. From the pictures and what they have on the map it was not meeting the setbacks and that they had to determine that and they had to file a variance. I asked if the people moved out of the garage yet, and I was told that they had not and she had been advised to hire a lawyer by Patsy Schmerier and that is the last that I talked to them about it.

Attorney Altman asked, does the board have any questions for Paula? Do you have any questions for her?

Susan Snyder stated, no, I’m not sure I did not say, did I tell you that Patsy told me to hire a lawyer.

Paula Norwood stated, yes.

Susan Snyder stated, I asked Patsy about, okay I have no questions for her. I don’t think that I had told her that. I did talk to Patsy.

Attorney Altman asked, does the board have any questions for her?

Susan Snyder stated, I talked to Patsy, I talked to the lawyer the day I left here. I saw Patsy oh I don’t know sometime after that and I just asked her if she would come over and look at the building and verify that there is no running water in that and that it is not livable. I don’t know how Patsy got and that is all I asked of Patsy. I also talked to Ron. They own the business across the street from us.

Attorney Altman asked, do you have anything else?

Steven Snyder stated, I have one question. I understand that we are being charged for converting a garage into an apartment. Is that correct?

Attorney Altman stated, essentially using it as a dwelling, yes.

Steven Snyder stated, well it was never a garage in the first place.

Attorney Altman stated, it is the use of it.

Steven Snyder stated, well I understand that, but we are being charged with converting, which we never did.

Director Weaver stated, that information that you are looking at is what we were using for, when we started investigating this.

Steven Snyder stated, I think if you went back far enough to the original owner of the house prior to us that is what she used it for.

Director Weaver stated, this is before we did any research this was the beginning of our research.

Steven Snyder stated, okay, but we are still being accused of converting it.

Susan Snyder stated, changing it to an apartment.

Steven Snyder stated, we never did, we didn’t change anything.

Attorney Altman stated, it really doesn’t matter, if you are using it as a dwelling area it violates the ordinance. Whether you converted anything or not, it doesn’t matter. It is the use. Zoning controls the use is what I’m trying to say.

Steven Snyder stated, okay

Attorney Altman stated, if you use it long enough and your testimony is it was at least from August to about 4 days ago that it was used as sleeping quarters for two humans. That is what the potential violation is. That is what the determination of the department is. Additionally not having permits is also a violation. We are just here to listen to your appeal.

Susan Snyder asked, are you required to get a permit for a fence under 4’?

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Steven Snyder asked, everyone?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, and if you know of anyone, who doesn’t, please let us know.

Steven Snyder stated, then you are going to be busy then.

Susan Snyder stated, that is what we are wondering. Why, like our neighbors fence is closer to the sidewalk then what we want ours. There is less than a 1’ away from the sidewalk and we have to either move ours back 10’ or get a variance. The chain link fence only a block down went up 3 years ago is against the sidewalk. But ours has to be back 11’.

Attorney Altman stated, bring that in and so the department can take action on it.

Susan Snyder stated, I have pictures of it.

Attorney Altman asked, what I want to know do you have anything else you want to talk to us about your appeal?

Matt Snyder stated, when that building was built originally the lady that had owned it prior to us lived in it, while her parents lived in the house until they died and then they moved into the house. I have people in town that has told me that it was used for several years like that.

Attorney Altman stated, in the 70’s, unfortunately the ordinance changed in 1995.

Don Ward asked, what about the future, no one is sleeping in or going too.

Susan Snyder stated, no, they came to help with the kids because they’re working.

Several talking at once.

Don Ward stated, are you going to stay in compliance by not having one there.

Susan Snyder stated, yes. The kids are not working those shifts now, so it is not necessary to have them there with the young ones.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, I understand that, I think things have changed and they don’t need them now. What I’m looking at is almost 3 months from when you were notified before they moved out. What if the kid’s hours change again?

Susan Snyder stated, okay, this is only hear say I don’t talk to these girls, they are friends of theirs. One reason why they hadn’t left yet, one of the girls had inherited a home from an estate and they were waiting to get into that house. They had to wait until the estate was settled to get into the home.

Attorney Altman asked, where is the home they went to?

Matt Snyder stated, it is around Zionsville.

Attorney Altman stated, the answer to Mr. Ward is that you are in compliance and you are staying in compliance.

Susan Snyder stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, you have a variance filed and you are going to get the building permit.

Susan Snyder stated, for the fence.

Attorney Altman stated, for everything.

Susan Snyder stated, I’ve got the porch one. It has already been issued and cleared.

Several talking at once.

Don Ward stated, this was to have been filed before the 17th.

Susan Snyder stated, Bob tried to call and get it set up and he called Jerry and he could not get hold of him, by the time we got hold of him and set things up, it would have been the November one. We have a daughter that is in the Army and stationed in Belgium and we had already set up to go to Belgium to visit my daughter and her family there. We could not be here for that November meeting because of that. Bob sent them a letter and told them that we would be out of the Country for the November meeting. They were notified and asked if we could come to this meeting. That is one reason I didn’t want to put it off any longer because we would have been here in November, except we were visiting our daughter.

Attorney Altman stated, that is correct.

Director Weaver asked, they got approval from you Jerry to be heard more than 60 days from the request or the fine being imposed.

Attorney Altman stated, Mr. Little asked me for a continuance.

Director Weaver stated, I was not aware of that, I was not informed of that.

Several talking at once.

Director Weaver stated, the appeal wasn’t filed in time to go on the November meeting.

Attorney Altman stated, I think there is no question about that. It wasn’t very timely filed.

Director Weaver stated, I guess the point I’m trying to make is if they couldn’t make the November meeting, it still should have been filed in a timely manner to be at the November meeting and then we could have granted a continuance.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree with that.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, any comments or suggestions from the board?

Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman asked, Mr. Ward do you have a proposal to make on the fine matter?

Don Ward stated, I make a motion that set the fine at $200.

Jay Clawson stated, I second the motion.

Vice President David Rosenbarger asked, all of those in favor say “aye”. All replied “aye”

Attorney Altman stated, the motion was carried by a 6 to 0 vote. Needs to be paid right away, within a week.


Attorney Altman stated, let me make an announcement on the Indiana Beach. Essentially the judge ruled that the special exception was allowed, but the height restriction was not allowed by the Judge. It is kind of an interesting decision that essentially says at least in his mind that probably can not be granted. Diann probably has a copy of that here, oh you don’t have. The special exception is allowed which let's them operate their business. Obviously the BZA will offer an appeal of this. Diann is there anything else in the way of legal that I should be talking about.

Director Weaver stated, if you look with your pictures, I have given you a proposed amendment for the zoning ordinance. You need to look this over, it is regarding amusement parks. The Commissioners have given this to me and would like for us to look at it and consider it for adoption with our ordinance.

Don Ward asked, won’t that be looked at with the new?

Attorney Altman stated, it certainly will be.

Several talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, let me make a suggestion to the board also as an alternative. Page 28 where it says amusement parks, B-2, and C-1 special exception. I would suggest the simplest way would be to make that B-2 amusement park would be an allowed use there. Trying to do the least modification is what I’m really suggesting here. Rather than what they did, it is all right. Then on our schedule our district regulations and it is page 35. It would seem to me that in B-2 then that the principal structure height could be * beside the 45’ and that there be a #7 there and that height would be more consistent with modern use of amusement parks and height to maybe 85 or 90’. It would seem to me to.

Vice President David Rosenbarger stated, you are going to open that up with a lot when you single that out like that.

Attorney Altman stated, that happens with everything with a sense.

Don Ward stated, when we go way out say 100’ or 125’ it looks like we should set a minimum distance that can be from the lot line.

Attorney Altman stated, the only think I guess I would say is maybe so and you have to look at it that way. The only thing I’m thinking of is if you did that for just amusement rides regulate and I did like the fact in this proposal that they had, they went and they have a regulated amusement device and that is what I’m talking about. Allowing that structure only to be that height.

Greg Bossaer asked, who are they? Who did this?

Attorney Altman stated, the attorney’s for the Indiana Beach. I’m just suggesting that we quickly and without a lot of change add those two changes and do a whole lot quicker and simpler and I think from the departments point of view the ability to know what is happening and least change and continue.

Director Weaver stated, the board needs to look this over, so we can address this at the next meeting.

Jay Clawson stated, in our schedule of uses on the fines imposed, we need to be a little more specific. That business for trash hauling really doesn’t meet the waste facility the way it is described in the book. I mean it is a business that needs to be in some type and described and set what type like a trash hauling or however, we want to describe that. Where these people are hauling directly to because the trash in the trucks and it doesn’t need to be a home occupation type of business. It shouldn’t be ran out of any residential residence anywhere, but it needs to be described that this can be done either in an I-1 or a B-2. The trucks need to be stored inside or what ever. He was trying to describe my business of just a van.

Greg Bossaer stated, it isn’t the same. His vehicle is a part of the equipment and your vehicle hauls the equipment.

Jay Clawson stated, we need to clarify it.

Director Weaver stated, you need to discuss this after next months meeting.


The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Stephen Fisher, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission