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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, June 14, 2004, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Charles Anderson, David Rosenbarger, David Scott, Don Ward, Robert Thomas, Gregory Bossaer, Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Jerry Altman and Director Diann Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Roland Klockow, Charles R. Mellon, Don Tribbett, Mark Woods, Randy W. Price, Abby Lietz and Terry Beasey.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Jay Clawson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the April 12 and May 10, 2004 meeting. Motion was seconded by Greg Bossaer and carried unanimously.

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#854 Dreamco Enterprises Inc.; The property is located on 1.99 acres, in the City of Monticello at 725 W. Fisher Street.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from I-1 to B-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anyone here representing this request? Was this just to bring the property into compliance?

 

Director Weaver stated, yes, it was rezoned at one time. When the roller rink went in it was never rezoned for a more appropriate zoning.

 

President Charles Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions? Does anyone in the audience have any questions about this request? If not let's vote.

 

Jay Clawson asked, is it going to stay a roller rink?

 

Mark Woods stated, yes, we have been doing some sales out of there also. I called on doing it and asked what happen when they were doing all of the other sales here for the last 11 years.

 

Don Ward stated, its just like speeding, if you don’t get caught.

 

Mark Woods stated, I wasn’t doing it, I have only had this couple of years, but I was just trying to find out.

 

Without further discussion the board voted.

 

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the City Council for their action.

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#855 White County Rural Electric Membership Corp.; The property is located on 17.966 acres, in the City of Monticello at 302 N. Sixth Street.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from I-1 to I-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request?

Randy Price stated, I’m Randy Price.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions on this?

Jay Clawson stated, this is what we have to do, we did it for the schools. This is a bigger industrial tower. He has all of the permits from the FAA and the FCC.

David Rosenbarger asked, they are wanting to up it from an I-1 to an I-2 because of the tower?

Randy Price stated, we are only asking for the area where the towers are located, I think it is a 30’ square area and we had it surveyed by Jim Milligan.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anyone in the audience with any questions?

If not let's vote.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the City Council for their action.

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#297 Twin Lakes Regional Sewer District; Requesting approval of a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Booster Station #3 on .50 of an acre, more or less, also, an ingress/egress easement containing .062 acres, more or less. The property is located North of Monticello, directly West of 4967 E. 400 N.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anyone here representing this request?

Don Tribbett stated, I’m Don Tribbett and I’m the attorney for the Regional Sewer District.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have two of you then here with us?

Don Tribbett stated, just us.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions?

Don Ward stated, I have a question. The legal description that you have there for the total property that, was that they was it was in the Court house?

Don Tribbett stated, no, there is a clause missing off of that.

Don Ward stated, there is something wrong.

Don Tribbett stated, I can correct that on the description.

Don Ward asked, so you know this already?

Don Tribbett stated, yes.

Don Tribbett stated, there is also an error in the description on page 3 in the middle. Says South 90 degrees West, that should say 0 degrees West.

Don Tribbett stated, it says.

Don Ward stated, it says South 90 degrees West and should say South 0 degrees West.

Don Tribbett stated, right, that will be correct and we have corrected it.

Don Ward stated, okay.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone else have any questions from the audience?

Director Weaver stated, the property is currently owned by David L. & Tina M. Wolf.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anyone here representing them?

Don Ward asked, has this been cleared? This isn’t clear yet is it? The condemnation.

Don Tribbett stated, we filed a condemnation complaint and it has not been finalized yet. It should be shortly. I had spoken to Mr. Altman early on before we even started, so we were doing the proper procedure because I don’t think this was something that was really contemplated by your ordinance as to how you did it. Once we filed the condemnation complaint that we could go ahead and file the application for this subdivision.

President Charles Anderson asked, what was their objection to selling you the property?

Don Tribbett stated, money.

President Charles Anderson asked, how much? Can you give us an idea how far off you guys were?

Don Tribbett stated, the initial demand was about 3 times as much as what we had it appraised for.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have anymore questions?

Don Ward asked, are you expecting a jury trail or will the Judge decide?

Don Tribbett stated, well what happens is you start out of the taking it self, the acquisition. This should occur fairly quickly. Then the damages become the element that is contested and that portion of the case can be a jury trail. The request has to be made for one.

Don Ward stated, okay, I just wanted to know.

Attorney Altman stated, they still have possession and control and it is their ground. This whole proposal is based upon and not just based upon, but is a condition that it be continued through completion.

President Charles Anderson asked, in this area is this the only piece of property that could have been used?

Don Tribbett stated, well conceivably we could have went across the street, we had people there who didn’t want it there either, so.. I’m still hopeful with the Wolf’s. I have had contact with Mr. Wolf and I’m still hopeful that we will be able to resolve something shortly without going through the whole process.

Don Ward asked, are your hands tied as far as making more offer? I mean with federal money involved and such a way that you can not make another offer.

Don Tribbett stated, we are really only offering the appraised value and I can explained to them if they want to get their own appraisal. Then we might be able to negotiate based upon a different appraisal. We just can’t grab out of thin air a figure and agree to it. We have to work within the process.

Don Ward asked, did you have more than one appraiser?

Don Tribbett stated, we only had one.

Jay Clawson asked, Jerry do we have any conditions that we have to put on this?

Attorney Altman stated, that they have to complete the condemnation and the acquisition of the real estate.

President Charles Anderson stated, otherwise, it stays the same zoning as it is right now.

Attorney Altman stated, exactly.

Don Tribbett stated, complete the acquisition.

President Charles Anderson stated, it will stay the same zoning, they are just making a subdivision out of it. Any other questions from the Commissioners? If not I say let's go ahead and vote and it would be contingent on it being condemned or sold and acquired.

David Rosenbarger asked, doesn’t this have to go through the BZA for all of the setbacks and things? It doesn’t meet the, there is no room.

Director Weaver stated, the way we did the last one, it is going to meet the front setbacks. They have allowed enough room to meet the front setbacks. We treated the last one as an accessory building, which means it needs to be 5’ off of the rear and 5’ off of the side property lines.

David Rosenbarger asked, how do you treat an individual subdivision lot as an accessory building when it is the only building on it?

Director Weaver stated, well.

David Rosenbarger stated, we ran into something here back and I don’t know if it was the Regional Sewer, but little pump heads down here that the neighbors got to complain about it.

Director Weaver stated, that was another subdivision that they did.

David Rosenbarger asked, is this something?

Don Tribbett stated, I don’t think that was another subdivision.

Director Weaver stated, I think so.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yes 45’ or something down there.

Jay Clawson stated, yes, down at Tippecanoe Springs.

Don Tribbett stated, well that is Hubbard’s, but we haven’t, that is not complete either.

David Rosenbarger stated, I just remember something coming up.

Don Tribbett stated, we haven’t constructed anything yet, they haven’t constructed anything there.

Director Weaver stated, but at the time of the subdivision…

David Rosenbarger stated, I was thinking that was a stipulation to put on was you had to put something on it.

Jay Clawson stated, you had to put shrubs and things like that. There is a cell tower next to it and did they do something like that or is that property still owned.

Director Weaver stated, it is still owned by the Wolf’s.

Jay Clawson stated, they just lease the property.

Director Weaver stated, that is right.

President Charles Anderson stated, is that how they are assessing the value of the land, they can lease for a higher sale price.

Don Ward stated, well we also have to have the description corrected on the final plat.

Attorney Altman stated, that is right, it has to be correct.

Jay Clawson asked, are they going to come back for the secondary?

Director Weaver stated, we have both.

Several talking at once.

Don Ward asked, is it all corrected on the final?

Director Weaver stated, well I wasn’t aware of the problem of the legal description.

Don Ward asked, is it all corrected?

Don Tribbett stated, it will be on the final mylar, we will make sure that is all corrected.

Director Weaver stated, I do not have the final mylar yet. I have a paper copy, but not the final one.

Several are talking at once.

There is discussion among the board.

David Rosenbarger asked, what size is this building going to be?

Don Tribbett stated, 16’ x 28’.

David Rosenbarger asked, regular pitch roof, flat roof?

Don Tribbett stated, it has a gable roof, hip roof.

President Charles Anderson asked, is it a metal shed?

Several talking at once.

President Charles Anderson asked, what about the noise.

David Rosenbarger stated, everything should be inside.

Don Tribbett stated, everything is in the building, with the block it knocks down the noise.

Several talking at once.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Primary Approval Request for a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Booster Station #3 located in North of Monticello, was approved by a vote of 7 to 1, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

7 voted for approval on primary without conditions, 1 voted for approval with conditions.

President Charles Anderson asked, so can we vote on the secondary plat?

Attorney Altman stated, yes it is possible to vote on the secondary plat.

President Charles Anderson stated, and change it on the same.

Attorney Altman stated, but we do not have a mylar that is correct and that is something that is changeable and I would consider it a technical matter, but that is up with the board on whether they want to proceed without a secondary plat that is letter perfect.

Don Ward asked, can’t we always check it later?

Attorney Altman stated, you can always require it be correct and check it and it be a condition of the secondary approval. I think I would consider this a technical matter. Mr. Sterrett if we do go ahead as indicated that the call on the Section number is wrong on the secondary plat.

Director Weaver stated, on the surveyor’s certification.

Attorney Altman stated, I would presume that they have the same area call that Don indicated. I haven’t check that to make sure. Have you looked at it Don to make sure that it is right.

Don Ward asked, what was that.

Attorney Altman stated, the calls that you suggest were wrong on the primary.

Dennis Sterrett stated, Don doesn’t have that.

Director Weaver stated, right we do not send those out.

President Charles Anderson stated, so basically we can pass this contingent on the secondary plat being brought up.

Attorney Altman stated, as is says we have to place for the conditions for approval on the secondary ballot. The very least if you are going to proceed should be that they complete the acquisition and that they secondary be corrected to have the correct legal description on it.

Don Ward stated, yes, they have it for the property is correct as near as I can tell, but the over all property that belongs to the Wolf’s at 21 acres is not correct on here, and they know that.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand, but it again for the record what I’m saying, you are quite right they do know it.

President Charles Anderson stated, the description, it is correct on this description on this piece of property.

Don Ward stated, it appears to be.

Director Weaver stated, it should say Twin Lakes Regional Sewer District.

President Charles Anderson stated, I move that we go ahead and vote on this secondary contingent with the completion of the acquisition of the property and that the plat be corrected.

Director Weaver stated, that ballot is incorrect, it should be Twin Lakes Sewer District.

Jay Clawson asked, can we just change it?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, I would.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Primary Approval Request for a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Booster Station #3 located in North of Monticello, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Booster Station #3 located in North of Monticello, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.

Attorney Altman stated, we are changing this as the developer as being Twin Lakes Sewer district. This is approved with legally corrected showing the correct legal description and that the acquisition by the Twin Lakes Sewer District be completed.

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President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda would be business. First of all we are loosing a secretary.

Director Weaver stated, that is right, Steve Fisher has resigned and I talked to him today and that is effective immediately. We do need to appoint a new secretary for the board.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have any nominations?

Jay Clawson stated, I would nominate Don Ward.

Don Ward asked, did Steve quit?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there a second on this?

Greg Bossaer stated, I would second it.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anyone else?

Jay Clawson asked, is there anyone else interested in it?

Don Ward asked, Greg do you want to do it?

President Charles Anderson stated, it has been moved and second, nominations are closed. All of those in favor raise your right hand. The vote was 7 approved and 1 no. Motion carried.

Director Weaver stated, he is appointed by the school superintendents and I need to get a letter out to them and they will have to re-appoint someone.

Dennis Sterrett asked, is leaving the whole board, not jus the secretary spot?

Director Weaver stated, yes, he has an opportunity to teach over at Ivy Tech in Kokomo, and that is what he is going to do.

President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda is the amendments for the zoning ordinance.

Director Weaver stated, actually he is the one that wrote them up.

Attorney Altman stated, all right the first one I’m looking at is the amendment for the regulated amusement device. Are there any questions from the board about this one? Obviously, I tried to make B to C. B that it allowed for height to expand given the size of the lot. If the lot was there.

President Charles Anderson stated, he can go higher than the 45’ as long as he is half the distance from the line.

Attorney Altman stated, right, as long as he set it back far enough.

Don Ward asked, what do you guys think about that half? Has anyone thought about it?

Jay Clawson stated, I think it is a good idea.

Don Ward asked, is that too far?

David Rosenbarger stated, no.

Attorney Altman stated, they can always get a variance Don.

Don Ward stated, that is true.

Attorney Altman stated, is that were something that was a problem and I think of that as we look at high towers that we have around here that we occasionally have variances as a consequence of that. It isn’t like it is totally unbendable.

Don Ward stated, that is true.

Attorney Altman stated, the amusement person was here last time and he thought it was a good idea. Do we have a ballot?

Director Weaver stated, no it hasn’t been advertised.

Attorney Altman stated, oh it hasn’t been advertised. I didn’t know that.

Jay Clawson stated, we are just okaying it so we can advertise it.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have another one?

Attorney Altman stated, the next one is one and I must look at my book, but it was just to number reorder the section and delete a section that was not deemed necessary, unless you don’t want to proceed.

Director Weaver asked, what was this regarding Jerry?

Attorney Altman stated, I would have to look at the ordinance.

Dennis Sterrett stated, improvement location permit.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t agree with renumbering. I think if you renumber, I think you just need to omit, if you renumber you are going to run into problems.

Attorney Altman stated, so you would just?

Director Weaver stated, just delete the sections and just leave the numbering the same. You don’t change those numbers or you are going to run into problems down the line.

David Rosenbarger stated, I agree.

Attorney Altman stated, okay. So just delete it in its entirely and delete and renumber, etcetera. Just take it all off.

Director Weaver stated, that is the way I feel.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

Dennis Sterrett asked, why are we deleting improvement location?

Attorney Altman stated, it is taken care of by the ordinance through Dave Anderson’s.

Director Weaver stated, that is not true I have questioned this before, Dave Anderson issues the building permits. Dave Anderson doesn’t issue an improvement location permit. He doesn’t approve the location of the structure. He only approves the construction of the structure.

Attorney Altman stated, you can not have it both ways. I’m doing this because I thought that is what you wanted.

Director Weaver stated, I’m just trying to make sure that we are not making a mistake. I know we have ran into problems, but I’m not sure that this still resolves the problem.

Attorney Altman asked, do you want to table this one Diann?

Don Ward stated, he does check for property to see if they are too close to the property line.

Director Weaver stated, he does check the setbacks on behalf of Area Plan.

Don Ward stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, when that information comes into the office he is not the one that reviews the setbacks. That is done through my office.

Don Ward stated, but when he goes to the field, he takes a lot doesn’t he.

Director Weaver stated, right.

Jay Clawson stated, he has to sign off that it is being done right.

Director Weaver stated, the permit is issued before he ever goes out to the field.

Don Ward stated, she issues the permits.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t issue the permits Dave does. This is where the confusion all stems from. I know longer sign the building permit of any kind.

Jay Clawson asked, if someone sets a building wrong, who has the jurisdiction Dave does he find that when he goes out?

Director Weaver stated, no, I do.

Jay Clawson asked, you measure every building.

Director Weaver stated, if he catches it, he brings it to my attention and then Area Plan addresses it. We changed the title on the permits to say Building Permit and Improvement Location Permit.

Attorney Altman stated, why don’t we let this set for a month.

Director Weaver stated, yes, because I don’t know if this is the right answer.

Don Ward asked, when you put that on your permit though that this is an improvement location approval, I don’t think I would do that. It is their job to get it behind that line, not ours to check it. I mean we can check it, but to say it is approved, I don’t know if I would say it is approved or not. Unless you are absolutely certain.

Director Weaver stated, they have always said improvement location permit. It is the building permit part that we added.

Don Ward stated, a lot of properties do not have the corners staked and…

Director Weaver stated, we go by the drawing that they submit and when they sign the application.

Don Ward stated, you look at a drawing.

Director Weaver stated, we go by the drawing that they submit and the application says the the information submitted is true and correct.

Don Ward stated, okay that is different. I thought maybe you were going to the field and saying it is.

President Charles Anderson stated, but if the drawing is wrong, then.

Dennis Sterrett stated, so if we do away with this that 7.10 the requirement for a site plan does that go away too.

Director Weaver stated, good questions, I don’t know if that is in..

Dennis Sterrett stated, is that his category now.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know.

Don Ward stated, you don’t want to do away with the site plan. That is important. That is the only thing that you have to hold them with.

Director Weaver stated, right.

Attorney Altman stated, let's put this on hold for a month.

President Charles Anderson asked, was there anything else on that or was that it?

Attorney Altman stated, that was it.

President Charles Anderson stated, we have someone here who wants to address the board.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know if he is here to address the board or not.

President Charles Anderson stated, next on the business would be Meadowbrook Subdivision 2.

Director Weaver stated, well we have draw on the line of credit. This is Meadow Brook Subdivision. This is, well we haven’t received it yet. We over nighted it Thursday Night, Saturday was the last day for it to be in their possession.

President Charles Anderson asked, did you read that?

Director Weaver stated, Meadow Brook Subdivision 2 in Gingrich Addition. I did here from, this is a complicated situation. John Freeman at the time it was subdivided was the owner. He held the letter of credit on the property, he has since sold the property, but he was still holding the letter of credit on it. Every letter that Jerry has done, we have done, we sent copies to the current owner on this, I did this afternoon, and Jerry doesn’t even know this. I did get a call late this afternoon from the owner and he told me that we needed to do what we needed to do, that Mr. Freeman was the one that was responsible to have that letter of credit taken care of. He was not getting any responses to his phone to Mr. Freeman, like we are not getting any response. I guess we are just waiting to hear back from the bank.

Don Ward stated, the bank forwards the money to us.

Attorney Altman stated, we will proceed. What we really need to do is to give notice to all involved and proceed with the improvements.

Jay Clawson asked, what improvements?

Attorney Altman stated, roads, and…

Director Weaver stated, and some drainage.

Attorney Altman stated, roads, and drainage on that subdivision.

Don Ward stated, we haven’t got enough money to start with.

Director Weaver stated, right and that was what, we don’t have enough money to finish it all.

Attorney Altman stated, understand in all of the letters that we have sent out to the people that are in questions, we have not said you need to get full surety. We are going after what we can get.

Don Ward stated, what we can get.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess I’m saying to you is we read the subdivision control ordinance there is a section that talks about appropriate surety. This is how it gets to the end, when push comes to shove. We will see who shoves back, we are certainly not stopping here.

Don Ward stated, the developer always has his cost, and maybe that was his costs, but we are different. We need more money. We are going to get a contractor to get it done, and we are not going to get for the same price that the developer could do it. He could do it in his spare time, when he isn’t doing other things. A guy is going to have to go out there with equipment and all. It is going to cost us more money. We are going to have to decide whether or not when they say it is going to cost $30,000 to bring it up to date whether or not it really is. We may need $50,000 to cover us. That is the problem with this John Freeman, there wasn’t enough money to start with.

Director Weaver stated, this original line of credit was done in 1995. It has been almost 10 years.

Attorney Altman stated, so it is a continuing saga….

President Charles Anderson stated, so someone else owns the property now. What is their response to this.

Don Ward stated, they don’t have to finish it. The people, who own it now, won’t have to finish the subdivision.

Attorney Altman stated, they will have to take it subject too.

Don Ward asked, can we just banned the subdivision.

President Charles Anderson asked, do they want to do this?

Attorney Altman stated, we would have to file suit to do that.

Don Ward stated, that is what we might have to do, if we don’t get that check from them.

Attorney Altman stated, that may be if we don’t get a check from here, I could see that and revoke the plat. The real problem is…

It does happen to be one that is on the road, I’m hoping tomorrow or sometime this week that we get an answer before I begin the complaint in court. That is exactly where I’m going next on this.

Don Ward asked, if we get the check from the bank, will we have the right to go to the new owners and say look we’ve got this much money and we need this much more to cover us. If you want to continue, we want a bond for this or something, or we are going to court and disband this subdivision.

Attorney Altman stated, we are certainly going to proceed that way.

President Charles Anderson stated, other than the lot that is sold.

Attorney Altman stated, that is what we must do.

Don Ward stated, we have learned a bitter lesson on this.

Robert Thomas asked, you have no idea what the other owner want to do?

Director Weaver stated, the only contact that I have had with them was briefly tonight.

President Charles Anderson asked, they bought it as a subdivision? Maybe they don’t want a subdivision.

Director Weaver stated, I do not know the circumstances, I don’t know.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you could look at their deed and see how they bought it.

Director Weaver stated, yes, I think we do have a copy.

Attorney Altman stated, the deed was a meets and bounds and lot number.

Director Weaver stated, it was a quit claim deed.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, it was a quit claim deed. That doesn’t matter too much and yes we do have a copy of the deed.

Don Ward stated, we really need to talk to the new owner, even if,

Several talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, that is why I’m giving everyone notice, the new owner, the lot owners and the old person that is obliged.

Director Weaver stated, the quit claim deed only has lots numbers, no meets and bounds.

Attorney Altman stated, no meets and bounds. I stand corrected. I hadn’t looked at it for a while.

Don Ward stated, then the streets still remain….

Attorney Altman stated, anyway I just wanted to bring you up to date and obviously it isn’t always pretty.

Jay Clawson stated, since we are talking about roads and subdivisions, several of the subdivision that we have done in the last 7 or 8 years, we don’t adhere to our road construction detail. We let them off and build it to what the county specs are, but like I was out in the Hunters Ridge the other day, and that subdivision isn’t even totally complete. They put in a chip and seal road and the road is pretty much 80% deteriorated and the people are complaining back there. Now that we have accepted a substandard road, now it is up to this guy, the developer makes all of the money on the sell side and puts in a road that is up to that kind of travel and now the taxpayers of White County get to pay for it. I think there needs to be more a standard in the subdivision then what we are doing in certain amount of base, instead of chip and seal, if they are going to make the county take over. I mean sure the county will probably chip and seal everything after it is done, there ought to be, I mean we went to a lot of trouble if anyone wants to build streets and stuff, here are out specs and we want them built this way, sewer lines this way and for someone to just put any kind of road that they want and don’t’ have it tested where it has got to be 12” of stone. I mean the county accepts it.

Director Weaver asked, did the county accept that road?

Don Ward stated, the truth is we need a set of plans for the streets separate from the plat. The plat doesn’t tell you anything about the streets. If we are ever going to do the job right, we are going to have to force the developer to provide us with a set of plans that have been prepared by an engineering firm or somebody that knows what the heck they are doing. Put a stop to this of doing what they please. This is what they are doing.

David Scott asked, can we do a minimum standard?

Don Ward stated, I think, Denny was talking, we need a plat committee and add it to the budget. That committee ought to do the same things and check. We can give them the minimum cross section we will accept and then we can check that against the plans and see if we are getting what we are suppose to be getting. They are getting outside the right-of-way, and like Jay says they are not, a chip and seal road is a very temporary thing. We really need to be putting in mats of certain minimum depth of stone and minimum depth of base and…

David Scott asked, who would police this, the building inspector?

Don Ward stated, somebody, either the plat committee or somebody else to make sure that this is done and make the provide the plans and make them stake it in the field, and make them build it accordingly.

Jay Clawson stated, actually if you are doing a inspection process and they are doing a subdivision, there could be money built into the subdivision per inspections and improvements. Have an engineer go out and test, because we had streets that were built and had the core go out and had someone pour the streets and found out in 3 or 4 places that they were not right. We made them redo the black top because the depth was not right before we were going to accept it as a road that we were going to take care of it. They had to come and put another overlay on it.

Attorney Altman stated, it doesn’t mean that we can not hire someone to check, that has the ability to go check like that. I agree.

Don Ward stated, or we could require that the developer hire a professional engineer and that engineer is responsible to provide us with a complete set of plans to our satisfaction and to build it according to those plans period, if they don’t they are liable. That removes it from us pretty much. If we do catch the engineer screwing up then we’ve got someone to go after. In other words we would haven’t to check it ourselves. The problem is we have a conflict of interest right away because you have them paying the engineer and in realty it should be us paying the engineer to do it. They get an engineer to provide it and we get somebody to see that it is built according to the plans, that way you don’t get the conflict of interest. The guy paying the bill has always got he upper hand on you.

President Charles Anderson stated, it seems if the County if going to adopt those.

Don Ward stated, out in the county it really is the County’s responsibility. They really don’t have the facilities to do it and take care of it. It is kind of our responsibility to see that they provide a set of plans and that they do the thing right.

President Charles Anderson stated, we don’t have to change anything to do that.

Don Ward asked, can’t we hire an engineer firm?

Several talking at once.

David Rosenbarger stated, that is what they do in Brookston.

Don Ward stated, if you want to develop this is the rule you have to go by.

David Rosenbarger stated, in our subdivisions, they bring their engineer and then they take the plans to our engineer, but they pay the bill.

Don Ward stated, a confident engineering firm or any confident engineer is not going to be swayed much by the fact that the owner is paying him because he is liable. He is going to have to tell the truth, so if they get us a good set of plans and it looks good and we require it to be built that way, then the engineer to see that it is done and it is on his back. If it is not done right he is the guy that it comes back on. If he doesn’t do it right, then you can turn him in to the State Board of Registration. That will quickly erase his license.

Jay Clawson stated, but if we are not happy with the cross sections that is in our book, then we should have someone make up a cross section that we want to accept, to have, so when someone comes up when they ask what kind of road this is what we have and this is what we want built. Just don’t say we want a chip and seal road and they..

Attorney Altman stated, we can alter the ordinance, I can’t draw that up for you. If you want to get me what you are requiring in the city Jay, then I will include that as an amendment to our subdivision ordinance or for the rest of the jurisdiction.

David Scott stated, the County Highway would probably write the specs for us, wouldn’t they.

Jay Clawson stated, they probably should have a county engineer.

Don Ward stated, they should approve.

Several talking at once.

Don Ward stated, you know Jasper County I think when you put a subdivision out in the county you black top the roads. You do not chip and seal anything, you put the sewers, the drainage in, the whole ball of wax. They have people coming out of Chicago buying them, and they are putting in $250,000 homes and so they can afford to do that. The truth is this is what we should be doing. Requiring them to do actual black top roads and stuff built right.

President Charles Anderson stated, some of those subdivisions coming in Lafayette too.

Jay Clawson stated, well Wrede’s and Harner’s Subdivision that they did, they put all base, 2 mats of binder and a finish. Those roads going to stand up to a lot of time. I go to a lot of different subdivisions delivering stuff and see the ones that they do chip and seal and they are not, some of those are 3 and 4 years old and the roads are deteriorating horribly.

Don Ward stated, they don’t get any drainage on some of those.

Attorney Altman stated, why don’t you get me a copy of those specs. And we…

Jay Clawson stated, well what we have for the city is probably going to be, I would be happy to get them.

Attorney Altman stated, you can get one.

Director Weaver stated, I know the county doesn’t agree with what we have in our books.

Attorney Altman stated, the county highway can look at it.

President Charles Anderson asked, can you call the county and see if they will send that to us?

Terry Beasey stated, I’m Terry Beasey, Waste Management, I deal with what you are talking about all of the time. We call it quality assurance, and after a project is done the quality control and quality assurance plan requires that what has been constructed be inspected and a letter of that inspection stamped by a certified project engineer saying that it meets that specification. This is sent to the board prior to you releasing that road.

Don Ward stated, actually when you are constructing something it needs to be inspected periodically not at the end. It has to be done along the way, every step. You’ve got to make sure that the subgrade is right and then they put the right amount of stone in, right amount of black top, right amount of base, and right amount of surface. You’ve got to make sure that they do each step right and to do that you have got to have a complete set of plans, it has to be staked and you’ve got to have someone who knows what they are doing.

Terry Beasey stated, right.

Don Ward stated, you will get what you pay for. Cross-sections like this one are great except what do you do when you are in a big cut. This is where we are getting in to trouble. They show these beautiful plats, they are nice curved roads up and down the hills. What they are not telling you is when they start going through the cuts and start filling in the dips, they are out of the right-of-way. What we need is to know that they are not going to get out of the right-of-way. They have to take corrections to make sure they don’t’ get out of it. In other words if you are going to go through a cut, and you are going to get out of your right-of-way, you can level the land off so that the top of the slopes comes at the 50’ or where ever you want it. If you ever notice on roads there is either a very wide right-of-way or a variable right-of-way. If it is not variable it is wide, that is so when they hit a bad spot they got some room to work. A subdivision, they always try to say well 50’ street, well a 50’ street might be right in part of it, but it may not be enough for other parts. When you don’t have cross sections and you don’t know exactly what you are going to do and I don’t think most of these guys are doing subdivision planning do know what they are doing, until they start bull dozing. If you have a complete set of plans for the street then you know what you are going to do first. You stick to that and it cost more money, but it is worth a lot more money.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree.

Several talking at once.

Don Ward stated, you can actually have several different cross sections and be acceptable. If there is no sidewalk you can put lip gutters along the pavement and slope instead of sloping down, you can slope up and bring the water into the gutter and carry it away. There are a lot of things you can do. That is why one, two, or three cross sections are not going to solve the problems. A good engineer they could hire to do their subdivision might come up with 3 or 4 different cross section in the same subdivision and they all would be good. See what I mean, what we want is a good job, we don’t want to just dictate this is what you have to do, you have to stick to this 100%. We want a good job and a good engineer will do that.

Several talking at once.

President Charles Anderson asked, how would you write that up for the ordinance?

Don Ward stated, I would have to think about it how you would write all of that up. You could give some typical cross-sections for different situations.

President Charles Anderson stated, minimum as is.

Don Ward stated, yes, and then let them as their engineering firm to deliver us a set of plans with the cross sections, so we can see what they have used. Then if we had a committee set up then we could look at it and say we like this or we don’t like that or something like that and try to bargain with them to get what we think is a decent situation. I know it is an irritant to them, but if you look at some of our subdivisions they are not done very well.

Attorney Altman asked, is there anything else?

President Charles Anderson stated, we have the 2005 money-grubbing budget.

Director Weaver stated, I just put that on there so you can give comments and suggestions what ever. I think I did send you a copy of this years-approved budget. I had a few copies of the I did today, I asked for a copy of the whole county approved salaries and I laid a few of those out on the table.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you have a plat committee on here.

Director Weaver stated, I put that on there when we first originally started talking about it.

Dennis Sterrett stated, they haven’t met though.

Director Weaver stated, we have never amended the ordinance to allow for it. I put the money in there.

Greg Bossaer stated, I think it would have to have some members of the board, but if there is a professional that would do it.

Attorney Altman stated, I would have to read on it. I think you are exactly right on it. It has to be members of the board plus.

President Charles Anderson stated, and adds to it.

Attorney Altman stated, technical persons in there to take care of it.

President Charles Anderson asked, can it be both the Area Plan or BZA?

Director Weaver stated, you have two members that are on the APC that are on the BZA.

Attorney Altman stated, I think it is Area Plan actually as I remember. Let me reread that.

Greg Bossaer stated, we need to have that to change…

Director Weaver stated, I believe so, I think that is what we talked about before.

Greg Bossaer stated, the other question that I might have Diann is traffic.

Director Weaver stated, yes, there is only me and I don’t get out of the office often. Yes it is.

President Charles Anderson stated, this has already been approved.

Director Weaver stated, this has already been approved for the 2004 year. What I normally do when I submit for the next year, is I usually ask salary to be raised 5%. We don’t ever get, but that is what I asked for.

Several are talking at once.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have any other business?

Jay Clawson made a motion to adjourn.

Don Ward seconded the motion.

****

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Don Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission