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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, August 9, 2004, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, David Scott, Don Ward, Gregory Bossaer, Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Marc Campbell, Kirk Sullivan, Niles V. Leonard, Carrol Sullivan , Charles R. Mellon, Jack C. Martin, Kay Harrison, Mark Martin, Joyce Martin, David Alm, Chester Kawecki, Randy W. Price, Ethan D. Price, Ralph Frost, Susan Frost, and Gilda Hickman.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Jay Clawson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the June 14, 2004 meeting. Motion was seconded by Greg Bossaer and carried unanimously.


#856 Garry L. & Paula E. Cosgray; The property is on 0.710 of an acre, located at 1797 N. Francis Street in Norway.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from L-1 to B-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing this?


Attorney Altman stated, I would move that we restructure the meeting or put it at the end.


President Charles Anderson stated, we will put it at the end, in case they show up.



#857 Mark Martin; The property is on 3.002 Acres, located North of Monticello, on the Southeast corner of C.R. 400 N and Lake Road 26 E.

Violation: None

Request: He is requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anybody here representing that request?

Mark Martin stated, yes it is Mark Martin and Joyce Martin.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions on this?

Does anyone in the audience have any questions about this?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to County Commissioners for their action next Monday at 8:30 a.m.


#858 HJH, Inc., Owner; Aqua Environmental Container Corp., Applicant; The property is on 9.534 Acres, located at 8793 & 8883 W. US Highway 24 on the East side of Wolcott.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from I-1 to I-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anyone here representing this request? Would you state your name for the record?

Kirk Sullivan stated, Kirk Sullivan.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions on this?

Don Ward asked, what are the existing buildings on there?

Kirk Sullivan stated, there is an existing building for Indiana Ribbon that is also on that parcel. There is also an outbuilding described as a pole barn, which is to the West side of that.

Attorney Altman stated, the staff report shows an existing building that goes across and encroaches on property to the West, which is what you just talked about. Is that property, do you own that also?

Kirk Sullivan stated, no right now the current owner is HJH which is Indiana Ribbon. They are the current owner of the property. We are applying as a future purchaser to purchase the property.

Attorney Altman asked, to the West?

Kirk Sullivan stated, it would be, the property is made up of two parcels and we would be purchasing both parcels.

Attorney Altman stated, so that building would be all owned by you and would all be zoned an I-2.

Kirk Sullivan stated, yes, the parcel to the West of the dividing line. I haven’t seen the legal description on it.

Director Weaver stated, yes, let me explain. Part of this property is in the Town of Wolcott and part of the property is in the Township. He is not requesting to rezone what is in the Town. At this time which does include the West side of the building. My understanding is it is under lease and they are not going to be occupying that side of the building at this time, he is just trying to rezone the East side.

Mark Campbell stated, Dwyer currently has a lease and it is a 4-year lease and it is being used for warehouse. We are applying for that at the time being. The rezoning is with the approval of the current owner.

Director Weaver stated, that dark line that you see on the staff report is the Town limits.

Kirk Sullivan stated, as I understand the history of the building was originally two out buildings, one of them had a fire which is the one to West and when they rebuild it, they didn’t rebuild it as a separated building. They built it as an adjoining structure.

Mark Campbell stated, there is still a firewall in between the two.

David Rosenbarger asked, is it on the city property line.

Mark Campbell stated, the portion of the Dwyer, part of the Dwyer lease is currently in the county and part of the lease is in the City, which is why it doesn’t cause us a problem. We initially don’t plan on doing anything with that for the next 4 years.

President Charles Anderson asked, you say that there is a firewall in the building itself right on the Town line?

Mark Campbell stated, actually it is on the County. We have better use then what we need. The Dwyer part is the only part that encroaches and only the Dwyer part encroaches in the city.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any other questions on the request?

David Rosenbarger asked, my only question is how do you rezone in the middle of a building?

Attorney Altman stated, it is very easy.

David Rosenbarger stated, just draw a line through it.

Director Weaver stated, the legal description would tell you where the line is.

Attorney Altman stated, the legal description yes, I didn’t bring that up so much I just wanted to make sure that they knew that the building was divided. More than anything it appears that the I-2 or I-1 is on the highway and it has all of the, it is pretty much isolated and on its own. It has all of the things that would probably make it industrial structure. Since it showed the building encroaches.

David Rosenbarger asked, what happens in 4 years when they get the rest of that bought? How will that affect the business?

Mark Campbell stated, we are buying the whole parcel at one time. They will be leasing form us as of October.

David Rosenbarger stated, I guess what I’m looking at is….

Kirk Sullivan stated, none of our manufacturing that we do is anticipated being done in that section of the building.

Mark Campbell stated, the difference between for our purposes between the I-1 and the I-2 is due to flammables. That is pretty much it. As you may no or not know the fire main comes right down there and it is a great parcel for that. All we have to do is in this parcel is not do those activities there and we have plenty of activities to do so it is not a hardship for us.

Kirk Sullivan stated, I don’t anticipate us coming in to rezone the second parcel from an I-1 to an I-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any question for the HJH representative?

Jay Clawson stated, the only question I have is we have had questions about the environmental and with chemicals that they will be using. Are you State licensed and regulated?

Kirk Sullivan stated, this is one step of the process and the next step after the zoning would be to file for a title 5 permit with the State of Indiana.

Jay Clawson stated, this clears what is on site and clears the emissions.

Kirk Sullivan stated, yes and that process is under way for the application with the Stated. That will be separate.

Mark Campbell stated, just so you know our waste product we don’t put in the ground or the water table or the sewer system. We don’t produce anything other than some cutoff of some plastic solid waste. We recycle our acid tone and those kinds of things so the only thing would be an emission, which is because of the patterns, it is not a concern at least from the county people and the development people who have been trying to get us in your wonderful county.

Jay Clawson stated, okay it was just a question.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anyone in the audience with any questions? Are the Commissioners done with it?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action next Monday morning.


#859 White County Rural Electric Membership Corp.; The property is on 2.351 Acres, on the northwest corner of Sixth Street and Washington Street in Monticello.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from I-1 to B-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing this request?

Randy Price stated, I’m Randy Price.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions on this request?

Does anyone in the audience have any questions?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the Town Council for their action next Monday evening at 7:00 p.m.


#860 David C. Alm & Eileen L. Laskowski; The property is on Part Lot 3 & Part Lot 4 in O.P. Block 4, located at 307 S. Prairie Street in Brookston.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from B-1 to R-3.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing that request?

Please come forward and state your name.

David Alm stated, I’m David Alm.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions for him about this request?

Don Ward asked, do you have enough parking area?

David Alm stated, I believe so, we have a 3 car garage, this.

President Charles Anderson stated, you need to come forward so they can here you on the mic.

David Alm stated, what we are doing is, we are expanding on to our house to accommodate my mother in law and my nephew who is deaf and mentally handicap. They can be in our house. My mother in law is getting to the point where she can’t be on her own at this time. Really only 3 cars that are driven. My nephew, mine, and my wife’s. The lot is 75’ wide on the back and we are putting on an attached garage for 3 cars. There is a number of things we are having to do. One is the changing the zoning and that is because we are zoned a B-1 right now, so we can’t legally live there, I guess. We are doing that because we are doing a major change and adding on basically a little apartment for my mother in law. We are doing an attached garage. She is a heart patient and, if we did a separate garage we could meet the setbacks. We are hoping we can have it attached so she doesn’t have to go out in the winter. I honestly don’t know the rule for R-3. The reason we are going R-3 instead of R-2 however, is at some point, we hope to have her with us, but it may be 5 to 7 years something like that and possible to have a bed and breakfast type situation, which we feel Brookston could use. The closest right now for a hotel is I-65 or Reynolds there is just nowhere if you have company and you want to put them up and not in your house. It isn’t possible. That was a thought, along down the road we might want to do. Along the back it is possible to park 5 cars. We would only have 1 couple at a time if we do that, I’m not certain that we will.

Don Ward stated, the rule is 1 parking space per guestroom.

David Alm stated, there is just one guestroom. I think we would be okay on that. Farmer State Bank has a parking lot across the street that I’m sure they would be, they would work with us on that.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone in the audience have any questions on this?

Do the Commissioners have any other questions?

Jay Clawson stated, since we are going to an R-3 zoning everything is going to have to be brought into compliance and things like that. I’m not sure if we have anyone up there, when you change this what kind of legal ramification is there, does he have wide enough doors for equal access to anyone who wants to use it. Is it easy to rezone this without getting into trouble or does that have to be handicap bathrooms?

President Charles Anderson stated, does that apply to him for just adding a room for the mother that would apply to him unless he tries to change it to a Bed & Breakfast and then at that point he would have to comply with everything.

Attorney Altman stated, when it begins to be a Bed & Breakfast then it has to comply with those regulations at that time.

Director Weaver stated, he would also have to do something with the building department as well at that time. I think they would be the ones to check for those kinds of things.

Attorney Altman stated, when they begin the Bed & Breakfast use when ever that is, you or whoever does it in the future it would have to be in compliance with all of the rules and regulations.

Jay Clawson stated, another thing that we had to deal with recently in our city is someone going in and changing the zoning and accepting a house that has side walks out of compliance with the city ordinance. Or if you let them change the zoning and they come in and say the city needs to change the sidewalks, how does the Town of Brookston feel about that? Is the sidewalk in good enough shape? By changing this do we make sure all of those things are up to grade before we rezone or am I looking too deep into this situation?

Attorney Altman asked, you are asking the city to put sidewalks up?

Jay Clawson stated. Yes, like things that have been rezoned like someone rezoning on a fringe of a residential area and expecting the city to replace the sidewalks. Should we as a board make sure these things are up to snuff at the time of the rezoning?

Attorney Altman stated, you can do that or you can just say that.

Jay Clawson stated, I mean if they are in decent shape, but if they are out of compliance.

President Charles Anderson stated, you have to go back to the city.

Director Weaver stated, the town does the final approval, if the town thinks that needs to be addressed at that time. That would be the place for it to be handled.

Don Ward stated, since this is residential, this is an R-3 zoning.

Jay Clawson stated, that is true it is just another question I brought up to the board. I mean does the actual Town of Brookston can do that if they want to mandate that they can.

David Rosenbarger stated, changing this to a R-3 is he going to apply for setbacks on 4 sides.

Director Weaver stated, two sides I believe.

Several talking at once.

Director Weaver stated, the back is currently in compliance, but where the addition is it will take it out of compliance.

David Alm stated, however, we will be, Ripley Street is the street West of 43.

Director Weaver stated, you need to come forward.

David Alm stated, Ripley Street is the street that is one block West of 43. Where on the front is 3’ farther than the existing building which was built in 1854 to 1858 was built, so what we are doing a variance to make that be so if the building were to ever burn down we could build it back in the same dimensions that it is. On the back we are adding on the apartment for my mother in law and the garage and because we want it attached then that has the new setback rules. Just as the street runs, Ripley is kind of was a, all of the houses face 43 and have the back on that side and it was kind of like an alley. All the houses face East that is their front yard. Of all of the houses on Ripley on our side of the street we would be the farthest back even we are going to be 30’ from the street which is really 18’ from the property line. Everyone else is like 24’, so we will be back farther but we will be closer than what is normally allowed under the new zoning. So we, and if it turns out we can’t do that we can always separate the garage and then we are only 5’ setback and we will be within what we need. We will have to wheel granny out doors.

??? asked, is the house zoned a B-2.

Director Weaver stated, I think maybe it is.

David Alm stated, what happened when the uniformed code came through we used to be R-2/B-2. It was sort of viewed as an, I think, they do that as an enterprise zone, kind of, a business zone so that houses that are in that zone or around where a cluster of business are viewed as possible might change to business. At the time Farmers State Bank owned our house, we bought it from them and at that time it was thought they might bull doze it and put a parking lot or something, that would be a shame because it is really a class. Anyway so many of the houses anywhere around business in Brookston tend to be, they all were R-2/B-2 and when the uniform thing came through they flip to B-1, which is kind of, you’ve got to pick something I guess and that is what they picked.

President Charles Anderson asked, are there any other questions for this?

Ralph Frost asked, does that mean I can’t live in my house, do I need a variance to live it.

Susan Frost stated, we live next door.

President Charles Anderson asked, are you still zoned B-2?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

President Charles Anderson stated, you are grandfathered in.

Director Weaver stated, you are grandfathered as long as you don’t make any improvement on the home more than 50% of the value of the home.

President Charles Anderson asked, what if it burnt? They would have to rezone it?

Director Weaver stated, then you would have to rezone.

Don Ward asked, do you have a connection with this building?

David Alm stated, yes we do, we are in the process of tearing our garage down, and with their cooperation we are building it back.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone else have any questions about this request?

Attorney Altman asked, for the record you are?

Ralph Frost stated, Ralph and Susan Frost.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the Town of Brookston for their action.

David Rosenbarger stated, we meet this Wednesday and in two weeks.

David Alm stated, my schedule is real tight because all the..

Attorney Altman stated, probably the best thing to do is call Diann tomorrow…

Director Weaver stated, even if I get it out in the mail tomorrow they won’t get it by Wednesday meeting. The mail to Brookston just doesn’t go that fast.


#295 Jack C. & Fern H. Martin; Requesting approval of a 6 lot subdivision to be known as Apple Acres on 6.904 acres. The property is located Southeast of Brookston on the Southeast corner of County Road 1100 S and County Road 200 E.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request? Please come forwards and state your name.

Jack Martin stated, I’m Jack Martin and I have appeared before you before. At the last meeting we were asked to have some drainage plans drawn up and we contacted our survey and they drew these plans up and it was requested that the State set in a drainage engineer which they did and as I understand it he has approved the plans. Then we were asked, to secure an estimate of the cost for doing this work. We did secure this and filed it with the Area Plan people and then after that we will have to meet certain requirements at that time. If there are any questions I will be glad to answer them.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions?

Don Ward asked, why did the Commissioners reject the rezone because you didn’t have the drainage.

Jack Martin stated, I’m sorry.

Don Ward asked, did the County Commissioners reject the rezone because you didn’t have the drainage plan done.

Jack Martin stated, not that I know of.

Director Weaver stated, no that was not the reason at all. At that point he had not even applied for the subdivision.

Jay Clawson stated, he was going to go try to rezone it to an R-1 and now he is doing a subdivision on an A-1.

Attorney Altman stated, it is now 6 lots.

David Rosenbarger asked, where is the pond at Jack?

Jack Martin stated, it is to the Southeast. This is where the buildings are here.

Dennis Sterrett stated, the plan is to put a detention pond on lot 6.

Jay Clawson stated, that is where it will end up at.

David Rosenbarger stated, he said the southeast.

Dennis Sterrett stated, that is the existing pond.

David Rosenbarger stated, okay I’m talking about the retention pond that Ed Wahl gave an estimate on.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yes that is the one that goes on lot 6.

David Rosenbarger stated, so lot 6 will become nonexistent.

Rex Hendryx stated, it is on the North side of it.

Jack Martin stated, I don’t think that is correct Rex.

Several talking at once.

Rex Henydryx stated, the detention pond is to the South of lot 6, it will take part of it.

David Rosenbarger stated, so it will be part of lot 6.

Dennis Sterrett stated, we have the drainage approval.

(Currently looking over the plat.) Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, you ought to have that detention pond on this subdivision on the second plat.

David Rosenbarger stated, on the primary.

Attorney Altman stated, on the secondary. This is the secondary we are voting on.

Director Weaver stated, this is the secondary plat.

President Charles Anderson stated, we have already did the primary.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand that I mean this needs to be on the plat.

President Charles Anderson stated, we can still pass this contingent upon that being on the plat.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, I agree, there is no reason why it can not be contingent on it.

David Rosenbarger stated, with the detention pond not being a part of it.

Attorney Altman stated, show that too.

David Rosenbarger stated, with that retention pond being on Jack’s ground that is not going to be a part of the subdivision something would have to be on that piece of property stating that ponds belongs to the subdivision in case of.

President Charles Anderson asked, does it drain itself?

Attorney Altman stated, just so it is dedicated. That ought to be added to the secondary plat. We can pass it contingent upon that since the drainage board has it and they have it approved. You need to have the surveyor add it to that.

President Charles stated, so they want to add the retention pond on to the secondary plat and…

Attorney Altman stated, and the property that is not on the plat dedicated to the subdivision.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Apple Acres located in Southeast Brookston, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met, primary approval has been granted and the Subdivision is in compliance.


President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda is business.

Director Weaver stated, you still have Cosgray, you have not acted on it.

President Charles Anderson stated, we still don’t have anyone here for Cosgray so we will table Cosgray to the next meeting.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions regarding the amendments. It has been advertised?

Director Weaver stated, it has been advertised.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone in the audience have any questions.

Ralph Frost stated, just briefly could you say what the amendment is.

President Charles Anderson stated, it has to do with amusement parks. We will give you a copy if you want to read it.

(Diann gave him a copy)

Attorney Altman stated, this has to do with regulations for a regulated amusement device.

Ralph Frost asked, does this have to do with the noise of the roller coaster?

Attorney Altman stated, really this has nothing to do with sound.

President Charles Anderson stated, the height.

Attorney Altman stated, this just has to do with the height and the setbacks.

President Charles Anderson stated, let's go ahead and vote here.

Ralph Frost stated, can I ask another question?

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Ralph Frost asked, what were the setbacks before?

Attorney Altman stated, it was vague, we felt like an amusement ride needed, generally needed to be higher than what was allowed, which was 45’. Because of that we sort of compromised if you are going to go higher than that then you have to go back farther than that. That was our thinking on that, or get a variance. We just compromised so if you go higher than you go back half. The amusement people thought that was fine.

There was 8 voters cast and there was 8 approved and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.

President Charles Anderson stated, Diann do you have a comment on that.

Attorney Altman stated, Kevin Reynolds this board has not had so much contact with that, but I think it is a regulated board. Kevin Reynolds is out here on Range Line North, about 3 houses North of 24. The houses are on the East Side and he.

Director Weaver stated, he is the first one.

Jay Clawson asked, is he the one with the auto parts and auto repair?

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Jay Clawson stated, we told him to stop and cease at that time.

Attorney Altman stated, yes anyway, his lawyer now wants to settle the lawsuit in the worse way and I told him I would take this to our boards and how they want to settle it. I’m just getting feed back from the boards, BZA and the APC to see what they think is necessary. He was told no and he cleaned up for a little bit and then he went back to doing just the same old thing. We had one of our Policeman went out there in plain cloths and got a clear bid on, requested that he repair his car and the guy decided he would do it, so we decided that we would enforce the ordinance and now the lawyer wants to settle it. I’m willing to settle with the terms the board is thinking about.

David Rosenbarger asked, how do they want to settle it?

Attorney Altman stated, obviously no violations, then I’m asking, they just don’t want to go ahead with a trial.

David Rosenbarger stated, I understand that, but…

Attorney Altman stated, the minimum I would want is a restraining order from not doing it and I don’t know what that will do. However, if you look at it, you go through trial I don’t know, I think we will get a retraining order, I don’t know it is the same restraining order and I guess we would have to get the same enforcement. What I feel like is we at least need to impose a fine and that is what the board ought to give me an idea of what you want and…

President Charles Anderson asked, how much has this cost us so far?

Attorney Altman stated, I suspect around $800 or more than that.

President Charles Anderson stated, at least recoup what it has cost us plus, maybe $500 or more.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t have any trouble with that.

President Charles Anderson asked, what do you think Diann?

Director Weaver stated, I know what a headache these people have been and I don’t think it is stiff enough.

David Rosenbarger stated, can you ask for a settlement, and then the restraining order put in there again and a dollar amount that if they go back and collect so much a day from the day they started.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t have a problem with that.

Director Weaver stated, this is something that we have been monitoring for years.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, we really have.

Several talking at once.

President Charles Anderson asked, how many man-hours have you wasted on this.

Director Weaver stated, it wasn’t only me it has been John Raines has helped us with this.

Attorney Altman stated, a lot of good and a lot of work.

President Charles Anderson asked, what would you say has cost the county besides legal fees?

David Rosenbarger stated, legal fees of $1500.

President Charles Anderson stated, fine him that and charge him so much a day if he does it again from the time he starts again.

David Rosenbarger stated, from the time they caught him starting again.

President Charles Anderson stated, charge him $500 a day if he starts it again.

Attorney Altman stated, he is smart enough to know he is not going to work on John Raines vehicles any more. He is smart enough.

President Charles Anderson stated, we are just giving you an estimate anyway, you have to BZA and they will bump it up on us. I say $1500 and let the BZA raise it.

Attorney Altman stated, then how much a day?

President Charles Anderson stated, I say $500 a day if he starts it again.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. Does everyone else agree with that?

Jay Clawson stated, he was specifically denied, I mean it not like he didn’t know, he was told.

President Charles Anderson asked, let see a show of hands who is all in favor of the $1500 and $500 a day.

Attorney Altman stated, okay fine. Okay Diann what is next?

Director Weaver stated, I just have some miscellaneous things. Williamson, Stan Williamson, we have a trial set up for August 20, at 9:00 a.m., if anyone wants to attend that. That is a building and setback violation in Brookston.

Ralph Frost asked, can you briefly say what that was about?

Director Weaver stated, he built an addition on to his home without a building permit and without meeting the required setbacks. When he was told to go through a variance process he did not do that. It was posted a stop work order and continued to build and now occupies the addition.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you have anything else Diann?

Attorney Altman stated, yes the other thing I presume is the Freeman Subdivision is on there.

Director Weaver stated, yes it is I skipped it.

Attorney Altman stated, do you want to continue to skip it.

Director Weaver stated, no, it wasn’t intentional.

Attorney Altman stated, it is in a state of flux. I’m ready to file a lawsuit to vacate the subdivision. I don’t want to, we have one lot sold, we can not completely vacate it. I don’t want to completely vacate it.

President Charles Anderson asked, how about the money?

Attorney Altman stated, this is sort of the wild card that has come in. Diann has, that there maybe somebody interested in buying it and posting and taking care of the problems. I’m not sure I don’t want to go into it. I would prefer not to go to much deeper, since this is not an executive session and the public is here. Maybe next month if we don’t have it sold and put in compliance, then we say we need to have an executive session and talk about it.

President Charles Anderson asked, was there any money in that letter of credit.

Director Weaver stated, the bank denied it.

Attorney Altman stated, the bank denied it and I think it amounts to we have to go to court to get it.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anything else?

Dennis Sterrett stated, what good is the letter of credit, it must not be very good.

Attorney Altman stated, I’m not very impressed with them, especially.

Director Weaver stated, I thought we did everything to get that money.

Attorney Altman stated, the truth is, I’m sure of that, I can’t tell you. I think Diann is exactly right and we are going to have to go to court to get a judge to order it.

President Charles Anderson stated, a line of credit that means the bank is responsible for it. Even though someone may be bankrupt the bank issuing it is still liable for it. They should have had the money locked up.

Dennis Sterrett asked, you have to sue the bank then?

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Don Ward asked, do you thing the bank had the money locked up and then they pulled the money out and told them to do away with the letter of credit? That is what it sounds like to me, the bank isn’t give them the money back as long as there is a letter of credit.

Attorney Altman stated, I would rather not talk about that now.

Director Weaver stated, the only other thing I was going to mention was the budget hearing. If anyone wants to attend the budget hearing it is tomorrow morning at 8:15 in the council room.

Attorney Altman stated, I think it is really helpful, if you can be there that is wonderful. It really supports Diann and the ladies that work very hard at a very frustrating job.

Director Weaver stated, the BZA brought up and I believe they are going to attend the meeting because they brought up at their meeting the other day that they had concerns about. I didn’t put in the budget to accommodate this, is security at night when we are here in the building with our meetings, there is no security. They thought maybe that should be something addressed.

Attorney Altman stated, the truth is people you are setting up here and how do you get out.

David Scott stated, the BZA gets a little rough in here.

Attorney Altman stated, the BZA does a little more fining than you do. You are getting to do enough of that, you’ve got to think about that. The Commissioners have the same problems.

President Charles Anderson stated, you can usually calm them down, there has been some irate people and you wonder walking out here.

Director Weaver stated, we do have a panic button in here, but the building is locked up and they won’t be able to get in here to get to us. During the day it is fine.

Several talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess what I’m saying is talk to the council about this because I don’t think anybody thought about it, until two nights ago.

David Scott stated, we had that lady and she was something else.

Attorney Altman stated, you need to think about this.

Jay Clawson stated, business advertising in the right of ways because now I have had two other business say that their competition is advertising on the corners of roads all over the place.

Director Weaver stated, let me know who it is, we did take care of the other one real easy.

Jay Clawson stated, did you, I haven’t seen anything.

Director Weaver stated, we made a phone call and told him to get them down or we were going to make him pay a permit fee for everyone of them.

Jay Clawson stated, okay, the guys said he would not do that, but if all of the other company from around Brookston for deposal that were out on the other side of Reynolds. There were hundreds of the deposals signs on all of the roadways, they drove fence post or nailed the to the signs at any intersection. That is a violation of our ordinance. It is different if you are doing a garage sale for two days and take them down. When they advertise permanent on the roads something needs to be done, it will be an acceptable practice and we will have hundreds of signs at every intersection.

Director Weaver stated, do you know who they are, we will try it again.

Jay Clawson stated, that is okay if you have gotten something done on it.

Director Weaver stated, I just forwarded this letter on to the board from George Loy. Jerry got one and I got a copy of it. It is just a suggestion to amendments and I thought the board would like to look this over.

Jay Clawson asked, should we have this on the agenda for the next meeting then?

Director Weaver stated, we can do that yes. I also, now that I’m talking about amendments. The County Commissioners have approached me that they want us to look at out subdivision ordinance and see if we can’t come up with an amendment for a way for a utility to acquire ground without going through the subdivision process. I guess some counties have an exemption for utility purposes only. The County Commissioners would like some thought into that.

Attorney Altman stated, I assume that is for the sewer systems.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, is that for large tracts of land or for strips for power lines, cables.

David Rosenbarger stated, the little areas we have done for the pumps.

Director Weaver stated, that is what they are referring too.

Don Ward stated, something that we need to keep in mind on that stuff is, utilities have a tendency to stay right on the property line or road and we need to push them back a little bit because if you ever want to widen the road then you are stuck with them. It is expensive to move them, we have one down here South of Hanenkratt’s. It is right against the right-of-way of the road and we need for right-of-way. It will cost at least $100,000 to move it and maybe $500,000.

David Rosenbarger stated, who regulates that.

Don Ward stated, it was put in sometime ago. Century Tel bought it, so they didn’t know where half of the easements were, it was a mess.

David Rosenbarger stated, but if another one goes in there and they replace the lines, who regulates it.

Don Ward stated, no body apparently. We need to tell them anytime any utility is going to do anything look into the future because they cross the streams and then they are in the way of a new bridge. With a little bit of money spent at the time they do the work they can stay out of the way of bridge and don’t come up real fast. Directional boring anymore, and if they just stay back away from the banks it would save a lot of trouble. We have had a lot of trouble at Brookston. I have talked to the Engineer in Ohio and said you need to look to the future and he said no one ever has. They understand now because it is coming back to haunt them.

David Scott asked, is it us that regulate this?

Don Ward stated, well if they come in, if we are going to give them a blank piece of paper and they can do whatever they want.

Several talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, Don why don’t you think how much they need to be backed off and give some thought on that and give…

Don Ward stated, it depends on the location, if it is at the top of the hill, it needs to be cut back, if they are on the level it needs to be… maybe all they need is another 10’, if we have a 40’ right-of-way, we should never let them doing anything close to that. They need to stay back.

The one in Chalmers they fenced right against the State highway. There is good chance in the future that will be…

Several talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, give it some thought Don and get back with us on it.

Director Weaver stated, jay I have a response to something that you brought up at the last meeting. We were talking about the road cross sections. I did get a copy of the counties cross sections and I think Dave Rosenbarger was going to get Brookston and you were going to get the cities.

Jay Clawson stated, I have them out in the truck and did not deliver it.

Director Weaver stated, well I do have the counties so if you want to look at it. Also, you had mentioned to me about Hunters Ridge and their roads. The next day after that meeting I called and spoke to Steve Brook and he told me that it had not been taken over at that point. Since I have talked to him the developer has been in touch with me and was inquiring about what can be done to get the county to take that road over. I directed him to the highway department because there is a petition that has to be done and taken care of.

Also I gave you a copy of a letter I got from the Commissioners, I just thought would be of interest to you regarding our fines. They are requesting information on who we have fined and why we have fined them. That is it.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anything else?

Don Ward stated, what did we say about the cross sections of the roads.

Director Weaver stated, we were going to get copies of…

Don Ward asked, from where?

Director Weaver stated, Monticello, Brookston and the Counties.

Don Ward stated, that is not what I was talking about. What I was talking about was they must cross section existing ground at certain intervals such as 50’ and have an actual set of plans for the road and street, so we know exactly what they are going to do and that they know exactly what they are going to do. We know that there is enough ground for drainage. we want 50’ might be more then enough in some places, but it maybe a lot less. So whenever we are in fill away or cut area you may need more right-of-way. They can correct that so you can stay within a certain specified right-of-way. It takes work to do it. They don’t know half of the time what they are doing and I can tell that by looking at them.

President Charles Anderson stated, we need something to hand them say you have got to meet certain specifications on this.

Don Ward stated, yes, what we need is a set, you are going to have cross sections, you are going to have final cross sections drawn and you are going to know exactly what you are doing and you are going to stake it when your in the field to build it, so you can keep the grades the way it is suppose to be and the drainage the way it is suppose to be. If you have been out on Range line the last one 4 or 5 miles North they just graded the existing ground and dumped some stone and called it a road. When you build them up like that you don’t have anything.

President Charles Anderson stated, that is when you need an engineering guy to check those.

Don Ward stated, that is what we need to do, it will cost some money, but in the long run they will get a lot better job. If you look at subdivisions that have had the engineering planning done, they are a whole lot better.

President Charles Anderson stated, so basically we need to require them to contact an engineer.

Several talking at once.


The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Don Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission