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The White County Area Plan Commission met Wednesday, September 22, 2004, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana. This meeting was continued from September 13, 2004 due to the fact that we didn’t have a quorum.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, Charles Anderson, David Scott, Charles Mellon, Don Ward, Robert Thomas, Gregory Bossaer, and Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: D.A. Diener, Jeffry P. Jordan, Connie L. Flick, Amy Chiszar, Don Kolezar, and Greg Johnson (did not sign visitor registration).

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Jay Clawson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the August 9, 2004 meeting. Motion was seconded by Greg Bossaer and carried unanimously.

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#856 Garry L. & Paula E. Cosgray; The property is on 0.710 of an acre, located at 1797 N. Francis Street in Norway. Tabled from August 9, 2004.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from L-1 to B-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing this now?

Jeff Jordan stated, I’m Jeff Jordan, representing Garry and Paula, they are away right now.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions or comments?

Jay Clawson asked, could you state the use of the house?

Jeff Jordan stated, it is going to be used as a Bed and Breakfast.

Jay Clawson asked, how many bedrooms?

Jeff Jordan stated, two upstairs and the main bedroom down stairs.

President Charles Anderson stated, Bed & Breakfast from people moving over.

Jeff Jordan stated, could be, not really.

Jay Clawson stated, it seems to have adequate parking. There is a detached garage with about 3 spots and then a circle drive.

Don Ward stated, they only need two.

Jay Clawson stated, there are plenty.

President Charles Anderson asked, are there any more questions? Does anyone in the audience have any questions?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The results of the vote were as follows: 9 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.

Director Weaver stated, that will be on October 4, 2004.

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#861 Board of Trustees of the Monticello United Methodist Church; The property is located on Lot 72 in O.P. of Monticello at 213 S. Illinois Street.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-2 to B-2.

President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda is #861 and it has been withdrawn.

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#298 Connie L. & Connie K. Flick; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Rickey Road Subdivision on 1.496 acre. The property is located in the City of Monticello at 203 and 205 Rickey Road.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing this request? Please step forward and state your name.

Connie Flick stated, I’m Connie Flick.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions on this?

Jay Clawson stated, yes, where do we start? By subdividing this it creates a non-conforming use with the little building and with setbacks. Is that building going to be removed?

Connie Flick stated, the reason I was wanting to subdivide it the lady is wanting to buy the house and half acre and she already has a loan approval, that is why I’m subdividing it. I want to sell all of it together and I was having a hard time selling it all together. I thought I could sell it easier if I cut the house out, so they could afford to buy it. That is the reason so I could sell the property, I have no intention of doing anything on the remaining property.

Jay Clawson stated, at this time.

Connie Flick stated, right.

Jay Clawson stated, another thing I didn’t see Denny for drainage there is not, there isn’t a drainage release.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yes there is.

Director Weaver stated, yes there is, there is a letter.

Jay Clawson stated, during this last huge rain that we had, we had many angry residences in the Northwestern subdivision area that were complaining about water pooling down on Northwestern and Heritage Road. We just want to make sure that there is an engineering, that it was looked over pretty quick before. To make sure that there weren’t any improvements that had to be done or should be done before this is approved because we already have put in a bigger tile in that area and it is not enough to handle what is already developed. If that is sold and more black top put in, where is that water going to go and how is that going to be treated.

Dennis Sterrett stated, actually the letter states that the Rickey Road subdivision has no development plans at this time. The future development may require a drainage plan. That is the way we left it.

Jay Clawson asked, before anything can be done, any construction or any changes.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, that needs to be a part of the terms and improvements if it is approved.

Jay Clawson stated, no body on the plat, we don’t have a setback from the, it would be the East side of the lot. Milligan did not put any measurements from the property line to the house was. That need to be on there, also there is a driveway to this house that is not shown. Jim should have put it on there, it has to be on the plat because if it is going into the other lot. For us to subdivide it, it needs to be changed. Somebody else buys that they might not agree that.

Don Ward stated, there are no setbacks shown for this side lot.

Jay Clawson stated, yes, those need to be noted.

Director Weaver stated, there are no side setbacks, I don’t believe because it is business zoning. I think it is a zero.

Connie Flick stated, because it is commercial.

Jay Clawson stated, the house is still.

Director Weaver stated, the house is a non-conforming use in a B-2 zoning.

Jay Clawson stated, so we have no setback requirements there.

Director Weaver stated, I’m looking.

Jay Clawson stated, B-1 has the 0 setbacks and the B-2 got.

Director Weaver stated, yes as long as it is has B-2 on the sides of it, then it has no side setbacks.

Attorney Altman asked, is the State Bank of Oxford zoned a B-2?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, the other is, what will be number 2 if approved will be is B-2 also.

Director Weaver stated, yes, and beyond lot 2.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand.

Jay Clawson stated, with the widening of Rickey Road that is the setback line now where the building is half way through and the new setbacks are going to be farther because of the right-of-way acquisition. That building to subdivide that should be raised, I mean there is no way that can.

Director Weaver stated, it is my understanding that he went to the City and spoke to the City and there was no additional right-of-way needed.

Jay Clawson stated, okay, I just wanted to make sure because there is a lot of extra.

Director Weaver stated, I did refer him to the city.

Connie Flick stated, they said they would not be taking any of the property. Todd was out there checking it out.

Attorney Altman stated, that building certainly is out of compliance that is along the North boundary there and the setback.

President Charles Anderson stated, if we rezone that then he would have to bring that into compliance or take it to the BZA.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, or remove it.

Director Weaver stated, that is something that is not real clear in the ordinance whether a variance comes first or the subdivision comes first. I had advised Mr. Flick that he might have to go through a variance for the building. I’m bringing it on to you, like I said it is not stated in the ordinance, which should be done first.

Attorney Altman stated, it is always in questions, either the chicken or the egg.

President Charles Anderson asked, what is she going to be using the house for?

Connie Flick stated, it is a Day Care now.

President Charles Anderson asked, is she not going to live in the house?

Connie Flick stated, no, she is not. It is a Day Care and she wants to continue daycare.

Attorney Altman asked, what kind of parking do you require for a daycare?

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think the kids can drive.

Attorney Altman stated, well the mom and dad’s do.

Director Weaver stated, a daycare is allowed in a B-1 not a B-2.

President Charles Anderson stated, not in a B-2, so this is non-compliance.

Attorney Altman stated, she is going to have to rezone.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think this is going to work.

Director Weaver stated, the parking for a Day Care is 1 per every 2 employee plus one for every 5 children.

Jay Clawson asked, if we zone this and didn’t make him raise, could we subdivide this and allow that building to remain and not ever let it have any improvements with it being out of compliance? I mean if he wants to keep the property there and the building there and not use it as a building or just as storage. If he wants to make it business it would have to be, if it is sold it would have to be pushed back to meet new requirements.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t have any trouble with using it for storage or what have you.

Jay Clawson stated, there could be no building permits issued on this to expand it with it being that close to the road. I don’t want like you say you don’t want to do anything to it, it is something that was built 40 years ago. At the time it was all right and with the traffic and the new road going in.

Connie Flick stated, I understand.

Jay Clawson stated, it would be nice if someone developed that and pushed it back a little farther. You can use it now for storage.

President Charles Anderson stated, we can still split this, but to have business in it the way she wants it, she needs to rezone it.

Attorney Altman stated, if she changes it to B-1, there would be a change in setbacks, wouldn’t we.

Several are talking at once.

Connie Flick stated, I will be honest with you I would like to sell it, I have no plans to do anything with it.

President Charles Anderson stated, you have no plans to do anything with it.

Connie Flick stated, I want to slow down, I’m tired.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody in the audience with any questions?

Dennis Sterrett stated, the legal description does not match the plat from the point of the beginning and to the South line. Something is amiss.

President Charles Anderson stated, so that would have to be changed on the. Are we doing both primary and secondary?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Jay Clawson asked, do we have to have a list of things that need to be done for him to have.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Connie Flick stated, I understand.

Jay Clawson stated, I would like for Jim to show the driveway on there too, just to make sure that the driveway is right.

Attorney Altman stated, oh it must be on there.

President Charles Anderson stated, do you want to go ahead then and try to do the primary or.

Jay Clawson stated, it all has to be done before we can do primary. Denny what do you see on the back line that needs to be changed?

Dennis Sterrett stated, to the point of beginning says North 89 59 25 East drawing and on the legal description is says South 89 59 25 East. It is just a type o problem.

Jay Clawson stated, okay, that just needs to be.

Dennis Sterrett stated, then the South line says Southeast and the description says Southwest.

Jay Clawson stated, okay, they need to get the legal description taken care of.

President Charles Anderson stated, basically we can’t move on this until this is corrected.

Jay Clawson stated, there are no utilities. There is one on the front that says power line.

Director Weaver stated, let me address this utility easement thing.

Don Ward asked, how do we figure out the parking for the house?

Director Weaver stated, I request utility easements to be shown and Jim got back to me and stated that there were none. I wasn’t sure what the reasoning was for that.

Attorney Altman stated, it shows power lines on that side, you would think certainly has to be some kind of easement to substantiate that and to allow that.

Dennis Sterrett stated, if it is in the right-of-way.

Attorney Altman asked, is it in the right-of-way?

Jay Clawson stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, if it is in the easement, then the actual description makes it not in the parcel of ground.

Jay Clawson asked, do we need to show the water lines, the sewer have located just incase they don’t go across the other subdivision.

Attorney Altman asked, do you know where they are?

Connie Flick stated, there are no sewer lines, I have talked to Criswell and he has worked out there. He talked to Bobby Wrede because I thought it was on the city sewer, but they said that the sewer has never been brought across there.

Dennis Sterrett asked, would the septic be on lot 1.

Connie Flick stated, it would be on lot, I don’t know.

Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman asked, Diann, are you making a list here?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Connie Flick stated, I hope it is behind the house.


Jay Clawson stated, well yeah, they’ve got septic, not on city sewer. That goes back to that secondary classification of lot sizes and everything, because I know the square footage is minimal if you are on the city sewer, but if you have septic it is like, I don’t have it in front of me.

Director Weaver stated, Jim’s report that he provided for the board states that it is on city sewer.

Dennis Sterrett asked, so do you think it will be through the city system?

President Charles Anderson stated, we need to find that out.

Jay Clawson stated, right, if it is that is not a problem, but if there is a septic system still, she is going to have to hook up to the city sewers before we can subdivide this because of the lot size.

President Charles Anderson stated, we need to know where the lines are.

Jay Clawson stated, she needs to put water line and sewer line are actually on the lot that she is keeping and not going across the other lot you want to subdivide.

Connie Flick stated, it is close, the water, I’m not sure what lot it is on, it is close.

President Charles Anderson stated, you are going to have to get with Diann, she has a list of things that you are going to have to do.

Dennis Sterrett asked, do you get a sewer bill that you know of?

Connie Flick stated, I don’t think so. I haven’t paid the utilities either.

President Charles Anderson stated, we will have to table this until the October 12 meeting.

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#299 William J. Misenheimer; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Mize Subdivision on .160 of an acre. The property is located in the City of Monticello at 221 and 223 W. Broadway.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anyone representing this request?

Greg Johnson stated, I’m Greg Johnson, representing Dr. Misenheimer.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners have any questions about the request?

Jay Clawson asked, do you want him to tell what he is going to do first?

President Charles Anderson asked, what are they doing?

Greg Johnson stated, the taco shop is planning on purchasing half of the building.

President Charles Anderson asked, isn’t this more along the line of a plan development?

Director Weaver stated, the building doesn’t meet the setback requirements, and again I have advised them that there may be a variance required on it.

Jay Clawson stated, well it brings the, when you split the parking issue, if Bill was to sell to someone else and it shows here that you only have two parking or 3 or 4 parking spaces it creates a gray area to where. We have never done something like this, could they leave the parking lot as a joint ownership? Then just subdivide the business property and use, by doing this it creates a, you guys get along, but somebody else might say at noon, I don’t want you taking up all of my spots. These are questions we need to ask the board to solve this.

Greg Bossaer stated, I have a question about the utilities. Do you share the utilities now?

Greg Johnson stated, no.

Greg Bossaer asked, you have a separate water line, and waste water line?

Greg Johnson stated, yes we have separate lines. The electric, no that is all separate.

Greg Bossaer stated, okay, that could create a problem.

Greg Johnson stated, yes, I’m pretty sure that it is all separated.

Attorney Altman stated, I certainly agree with you about the parking, that ought to be set forth as two lots and the building and parking be allowed to the clients. You need something that says that.

President Charles Anderson asked, what about the railroad? What is it considered is it considered a street?

Jay Clawson stated, it is considered a State Highway, the State, the city doesn’t maintain that. The State maintains the two block area there of railroad. One block North and one block South of 24.

President Charles Anderson stated, well as far as parking.

Jay Clawson stated, there is no parking on that street on, and on Broadway, you have what 3 or 4 spots.

Greg Johnson stated, 4 spots.

Jay Clawson stated, there is not a tremendous amount of street parking to help bring him into compliance there.

Director Weaver stated, you can’t count the on street parking anyway. It has to be on premise.

Don Ward stated, the entrance is here isn’t.

Jay Clawson stated, right.

Don Ward stated, that is why they don’t want to give that up. Why can’t he have an agreement with this guy, that if he sells that he always has the right to park.

Attorney Altman stated, that is fine, but that is that is what restrictions are or dedications are. That is what it ought to be for a good plan.

Don Ward stated, yes, you are right.

Jay Clawson stated, right it is for his restaurant, how many spaces is he required to have there.

Director Weaver stated, one parking space for 4 seats, plus 1 per employee per maximum shift.

Don Ward asked, what does that add up to?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know how many seats he has.

President Charles Anderson asked, how many seats to you have in there?

Greg Johnson stated, about 50.

President Charles Anderson stated, 50 seats that don’t add up.

Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, okay start your list Diann. A variance on parking, restriction and dedication.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t know how, you are in the downtown area. Why did we build parking in the downtown if you can’t use it?

Jay Clawson asked, do you have public parking, well is the parking at the Presbyterian Church, is that private?

Director Weaver stated, yes, private.

President Charles Anderson stated, yes, but just down the street and across the street, it is off street parking. It is a down town parking.

Several are talking at once.

Jay Clawson stated, to tell you the truth if there is no kind of agreement, lot 2 could block him from having access off of Railroad Street. You don’t have a, you are subdividing.

Don Ward stated, he could build his own lot.

Director Weaver asked, you want a parking variance? Do you want a setback variance as well?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, I think so. The business sign up there is that yours?

Greg Johnson stated, no that is Dr. Misenheimer's.

Attorney Altman stated, that ought to be dedicated for the two.

Several are talking at once.

Director Weaver stated, well how can you do that when the sign isn’t meeting setbacks, it doesn’t meet the requirements for a sign anyway.

Dennis Sterrett asked, where is the sign, I don’t see it.

Attorney Altman stated, the North West corner there. It just says business sign along Railroad and Broadway there.

Director Weaver stated, you must be looking at the secondary plat. The primary plat doesn’t identify it. It is the small rectangle there.

Several are talking at once.

President Charles Anderson asked, what kind of setback do you have to have in Town for a business sign.

Director Weaver stated, 10’.

Greg Bossaer asked, when did the sign go in? I mean if it is legal.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know when the sign went in. I’m assuming it is a non-conforming use.

Attorney Altman stated, it is legal, but non-conforming use. When you make subdivision you want things conformed. This is what it really amounts too. It isn’t that they couldn’t do this the way it was for the foreseeable future, it’s the fact that they are changing something, and you need to bring it into compliance. This is what we are trying to do here with out list.

Jay Clawson stated, if they took the line, like Don said and ran it straight out to Broadway and then just had easements drawn. Can you have 35’ or whatever on both sides where people drive in as right-of-ways? That would ensure there would never be anybody that could block somebody. I mean can a right-of-way go from one street to the other and then that way it would bring it more into compliance with the original lots that the City might have had.

Don Ward stated, that could be done on a dedication just show that.

Attorney Altman stated, I think it is just a dedication in that area for parking. I think that would be the easiest way. Egress and Ingress and parking, I think that is what you would want to say on that.

Jay Clawson stated, I mean we have a lot of lots in Town that are business lots down town and are this small or smaller. It is just that most of them are all the way to the street and they use street parking to do those. I just don’t want to see a gray area where somebody, there is a fight between two, or a lawsuit between two different people there.

Attorney Altman stated, you bet, we don’t need that, especially when we can prevent it. Don can you think of anything else that needs to be added to this plat?

Don Ward stated, no.

Attorney Altman stated, Diann is making a list. Do you understand that?

Greg Johnson stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, again how you actually deed the building area away is kind of up to you. We are working on the parking and access. As well as the variances that will be needed.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we make him go through the BZA first?

Jay Clawson stated, the sign.

President Charles Anderson stated, well supposable it is out of compliance.

Director Weaver stated, they have to do the parking and the setbacks for the building anyway, they can do them all at the same time.

Attorney Altman stated, I would say that is a very good idea.

Jay Clawson stated, that way he would be in compliance, so if he wanted to change the sign, it would be, they could do what ever they had.

President Charles Anderson asked, so do we want to have all of this done before he comes back to us with his primary and secondary plat?

Attorney Altman stated, I think it would be a good idea.

Jay Clawson stated, I would like to see it before we do a secondary on it. He could come back because the meeting is a week after our meeting, we could do primary with conditions that he get all of this, and then do the secondary after the variances. Do we need to have because Don brought up to me? Was there a Stated release? Since you are splitting these, are there firewalls between the two buildings? Does that need to be inspected by our building inspector to make sure that is adequate?

Several are talking at once.

Director Weaver stated, now that you have mentioned that there are state codes that regulate when you sell off part of the building. That would be a good idea to contact Dave and make sure that the building is in compliance.

Jay Clawson stated, if he gets an okay from Dave, you need to have from the building inspector that there is nothing else needed, or if you need a state release since you're dividing it. Just to make sure.

President Charles Anderson stated it is two businesses.

Several are talking at once.

Jay Clawson stated, so we are tabling this.

Attorney Altman stated, the variances have to be done first.

Jay Clawson asked, are you going to give him a list?

Director Weaver stated, yes, I will get it typed up.

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President Charles Anderson stated, okay on business we have Meadowbrook Subdivision.

Director Weaver stated, I thought I had sent you, yes I sent you a copy of the letter that I received that Ron Schmierer had brought into me. This is suggesting an amendment to the ordinance also.

Attorney Altman asked, is that the thing on Cass County that you talked about?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree with your issue on that. I think there maybe have a locate way to enforce something that isn’t quite exactly written in the ordinance. That may work out well for them, but I’m not sure it is really in there or really is being interpreted that way.

Several are talking at once.

Director Weaver asked, Jerry do we have an update on that?

Attorney Altman stated, it was supposedly going to be purchased, that hasn’t happened. What I have done was give it some time to see if it would eliminate the whole issue problem rather than, I think it is at the point it is going to have to get legated.

President Charles Anderson stated, the bond wasn’t.

Attorney Altman stated, in essence I wanted the board to know, this is my recommendation, that we need to proceed to enforce the ordinance for the subdivision. I just wanted everybody to know this and was told to enforce it, by filing suit.

Director Weaver stated, the Reynolds situation.

Attorney Altman stated, I just wanted to make everyone aware.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone have questions?

Attorney Altman asked, do you understand what the situation is? The subdivision had a bond and they revoked and they didn’t renew it and we called on the bond and they haven’t paid on the bond. The collateral things in buying it and get rid of that problem. That apparent is not going to happen. We need to proceed to litigate this.

Several are talking at once.

Don Ward asked, were we slow in asking for the money, should we have gone after that money sooner?

Attorney Altman stated, well, no.

Director Weaver stated, well we did try to, I believe.

Attorney Altman stated, the only problem was we couldn’t have done so a year ago.

Don Ward stated, we didn’t have a time limit on the bond did we.

Attorney Altman stated, we had a year, is what the bond was.

Don Ward stated, we should put a time limit on, the only way to control it is to put a time limit on it.

Attorney Altman stated, maybe it should be it he new ordinance.

Don Ward stated, maybe it should be flexible so that we could set it, like 5 years or 10 years. The huge thing maybe 10 or 15 years.

Director Weaver stated, our current ordinance does have a limit, but this was done under the old ordinance.

President Charles Anderson stated, that would no longer be subdivision once, he didn’t put any improvements in it.

Attorney Altman stated, that is a question.

Don Ward stated, you can’t revert it back without going through legal process.

Attorney Altman stated, legal process.

Don Ward stated, so they didn’t do that so it is still subdivision.

Attorney Altman stated, exactly right, that is exactly what I will be doing is revoking it.

Don Ward stated, put it back to acreage. Isn’t there a house or two there?

Director Weaver stated, there is one lot that has been sold.

Attorney Altman stated, thank goodness it is close enough that it isn’t a big issue.

Jay Clawson stated, it was built on the edge on adjoining property owner. That could be subdivided out.

Attorney Altman stated, I think they can be protected.

President Charles Anderson stated, the next thing.

Attorney Altman stated, the other one is, you guys turned down that rezoning through the Commissioners and they proceeded to keep the automotive business going. September 30, 2004 is the earliest to set that for trial. I have offered a $5,000 settlement and a retraining order that they do not violate the ordinance.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anymore new business?

Director Weaver stated, I have one thing, I have been contacted by someone that is wanting to put in a private firing range. Our ordinance does not address this, so I do not know what to tell this gentleman.

President Charles Anderson asked, where is he at, what area is he in?

Director Weaver stated, State Road 39, down in the valley.

President Charles Anderson stated, private, I guess there wouldn’t be an ordinance on that.

Don Ward stated, I don’t know. What is he going to fire?

Several are talking at once.

President Charles Anderson stated, a private range would not be controlled by us at all, unless.

Director Weaver stated, there are residences on the other side of it.

Several are talking at once.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Don Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission