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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, January 9, 2006, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Gary Barbour, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, David Scott, Charles Mellon, Donald W. Ward, and Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Terry Beasy, John O’Connor, Don Pauken, Bill Pyle, Dino Antonelli, Dow Dellinger, Jeff VanWeelden, Tom Parsley, Brenda Parsley, John Raines, Terri Raines, and Jim Thayer.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken.

President Charles Anderson stated, first on the agenda would be reorganization and we need nominations for president.

Jay Clawson stated, I will re-nominate Charles Anderson for President.

Charles Mellon seconded it, and I move that the nominations be closed.

Jay Clawson stated, I will second that.

President Charles Anderson stated, next would be Vice President.

Charles Mellon stated, I nominate Jay Clawson.

Don Ward stated, seconded it.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I make motion to close the nominations.

David Rosenbarger sated, I will second it.

President Charles Anderson stated, next would be Secretary.

David Rosenbarger stated, I will nominate Don Ward.

Jay Clawson stated, I will second it.

Charles Mellon stated, I move that nominations be closed.

Jay Clawson stated, second it.

President Charles Anderson stated, next on the reorganization would be the appointment of Director. We don’t have any one else running do we?

Gary Barbour stated, I make motion to nominate Diann Weaver.

David Rosenbarger stated, seconded it.

President Charles Anderson stated, I guess I really haven’t called a vote on this, but we don’t have to since no one else is running. Vote was unanimous on all 3, President, Vice President, Secretary, and Director. Next on the agenda would be the Attorney. Do we have anyone else here?

David Rosenbarger stated, I will nominate Jerry Altman.

Charles Mellon stated, I will second it.

Jay Clawson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the December 12, 2005 meeting. Motion was seconded by David Scott and carried unanimously.

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#896 Arthur E. Segal, Owner; James Norris, Applicant; The property is located on 4.625 acres being Part S SE 20-27-3, located West of Monticello on the North side of C.R. 100 N and on the West side of the railroad tracks.

Violation: None

Request: He is requesting to rezone from A-1 to I-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request? Please come forward and state your name.

James Norris stated, I’m Jim Norris. My reason for doing this is I need to get my business re-established Jim’s Truck and Auto. Also I own another business which is J & B Trucking. Actually need this room to be able to expand to do that.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anyone with any questions about that request?

Dino Antonelli stated, I’m Dino Antonelli, property own just South of where the proposed change it. Basically I just don’t think the road can handle it. I know that there is a frost law on that road and when that comes in affect. He is talking about bringing semis up and down the road and I just don’t think the road can handle it.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you want to respond to that?

James Norris stated, it is funny Mr. Segal has been there for years bringing heavy equipment up through there to do land around here for conservation and things of that natural. He moves dozers and things of that natural up there. I really don’t see how that would affect the road conditions. I don’t have, I think I only have 6 trucks. I’m sure if that road can’t handle 6 trucks going up and down it for a couple of years we have a problem. I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes, just want to be a good businessman here in this county. That is where I want to stay.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anyone else with any questions? Do the Commissioners have any questions?

Charles Mellon stated, Segal has used that himself to put dirt and stuff like that.

James Norris stated, actually right now the County, which I’m not opposed to it, they’ve talked to me to continue to use it because they put their sand there and they bring dump trucks back in there all of the time. I don’t plan on changing. I don’t need all of that area. I’ve got 4.6 acres. I’m going to leave it just like it is.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other questions?

Jay Clawson stated, I-1 can’t run that, I-2 is the only.

Director Weaver stated, not for the trucking business. For the repair yes I think it can, but not for the trucking. Transfer station for a trucking is I-2.

Jay Clawson stated, being so close to town, I would like to see a restriction that it not ever be transferred over to… Does a scrap yard have to have a special exception?

Director Weaver asked, are you looking Jerry?

James Norris stated, I don’t want it to look like no junkyard.

Jay Clawson stated, I understand that.

James Norris stated, I don’t want to be able to sell it as a junkyard. I’m going to have trucks parked there, but they will be running trucks, I’m not going to put any cars and sell parts out of there. I don’t plan on doing and I don’t want to do it.

Jay Clawson stated, once it is zoned I-2, who you sell it to, the next person, anything that fits in that zoning regulation can be done and we are trying to protect future people.

James Norris stated, I understand. Well no one is going to buy for at least 15 to 20 years until I die.

Charles Mellon asked, are you the one who had the fire up town at your business?

James Norris stated, yes sir I did.

President Charles Anderson stated, what he is talking about is limiting to your use and if you would sell it, it would be for that use, but if they tried to change it to something else after it was sold, then it would have to come back in and it would go back to the original zoning.

James Norris stated, I understand.

Jay Clawson asked, would you be willing to agree to those terms?

Attorney Altman stated, a waste facility takes a special exception, a salvage yard takes a special exception, a junkyard takes a special exception in this zoning, I-1 or I-2.

Jay Clawson stated, so they would have to go to BZA if they wanted to do.

Attorney Altman stated, if they want to do that. We have all seen one man’s repair place to go to something less than what we want. Then an auto salvage yard repair would take a special exception, auto-wrecking yard would also take a special exception.

Jay Clawson stated, okay we don’t have to worry. There would have to be extra.

Attorney Altman stated, any of those would take in there.

James Norris stated, if I did get this zoning per say and say 5 years down the road I want to sell my trucking company or my Jim’s Truck and auto repair would they have to go through rezoning a again to just buy that for the same thing.

President Charles Anderson stated, not for the same thing. You don’t have to put that on there. We can vote on it the way it is without the stipulation.

Jay Clawson stated, with having extra action on that petition I don’t think we need to regulate him that much, I was just worried that you could switch without ever having to come back to the board. I really don’t think he needs to put it on there. I’m not going to ask him.

Charles Mellon asked, do you think the county is going to put anything else besides the gravel or the stone?

James Norris stated, they haven’t said anything.

Charles Mellon stated, once they leave snowplow blades and other equipment and junk like that you aren’t going to let them do that.

James Norris stated, no, I rather not.

Charles Mellon stated, it might look like a junkyard then.

James Norris stated, no I don’t want to do that. They have a dozer or end loader there, which they need to load the trucks. When I get this done it is going to be nice, I want it to look good.

Charles Mellon stated, they have one South of Reynolds South of the Church that has everything in it. Use to have may not be cleaned up yet.

President Charles Anderson asked, anyone else want to respond to this?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioner for their action.

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#897 John O’Connor; The property is located on Lot 2 in Fisher Street Subdivision #1, located in Monticello at 602 W. Fisher Street.

Violation: None

Request: He is requesting to rezone from B-1 to B-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, anyone here representing this request?

John O’Connor stated, I’m John O’Connor, good evening. Basically I am going into another business and I need to get the land rezoned for an auto sales lot. Hope to be a part of the business community that is still on going.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anybody in the audience have any questions? Do the Commissioners have any questions?

Charles Mellon stated, that would be next to Brim on the other side.

John O’Connor stated, it is on the Brim side, yes.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the commissioners have any questions?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the City of Monticello for their action.

****

President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda would be business since we don’t have any subdivision. First on the list is Rangeline Properties. I think Dow Dellinger is here and wants to say something to the board or present something.

Dow Dellinger stated, I’ve got a handout for the board. We are here before the board today on behalf of Rangeline Properties and I think you guys are familiar with the property that we are talking about in Lot 1 and 2 of Korpita’s subdivision. We’ve had several discussions with Rangeline properties and we have a permit that has been issued for a transfer station that they received preliminary approval on the transfer station. This summer we are ready to move forward with it. Dave Anderson said he wouldn’t reissue a building permit for the transfer station because we weren’t sure we meet the requirements with the Drainage Board. We contacted Denny and did a revised plan of the drainage that the county Drainage Board approved at that point and time, sometime over the summer. It is our understanding that IDEM, that John Raines had contacted IDEM and told them that we would be in violation of the zoning ordinance if we were using lot 1 for access to lot 2. At that point and time IDEM contacted us and said they would not issue a final permit for construction without us having a letter from the County that said that the drainage plan was approved and that we could use lot 1 for drainage of lot 2 under the zoning ordinance and that we needed to have permission or approval from Area Plan to utilize access from Lot 1 to get to lot 2. First I contacted Mr. Altman your legal council to see what his opinion was. Mr. Altman stated he didn’t believe we could use the access across lot 1 which is zoned Agriculture to get to the Industrial zoned lot 2. We asked, Mr. Altman to give us a basis on that decision and we didn’t get anything. There was no part of the ordinance that he pointed out to us, couldn’t give us any examples of that taking place. Where the Area Plan had issue a cease and decease order or filed suit against somebody asking for an injunction for use across a lesser zoned parcel of real estate to get access to greater zoned parcel of real estate. I talked to Diann this morning and she informed me that under direction of council refused to sign a letter that we need for the permit, but she had not understood and she hadn’t read the zoning ordinance to deny us access across that, she made that statement based upon direction from legal council. What I have done is prepared a memorandum of the law and on the ordinance. Basically, your zoning ordinance says nothing about access. There are two portions of the zoning ordinance that described access and defines a driveway. That section says that a driveway is acceptable in any zoning ordinance or level of zoning. If you look at the law in Indiana it is basically borders the boards read. The zoning ordinance very closely, the term is strict construction or they don’t try to extend the ordinance by implication. Basically if there is not direction in the ordinance you can’t just say that we think the ordinance says something that is not there. In this case there is nothing in the ordinance that says we can’t have access. The reason we are coming before you today is basically we didn’t want to put Area plan in a position where the Director says we can’t use a portion for something that is not in the ordinance. We have to go to BZA to get a decision from the Board that may not have direction from the entire Area Plan board. If we don’t get the direction from the entire Area Plan board basically what we have to do is file a declaratory judgement suit in the White Circuit court. There is basically no basis of law of why we can’t have access to that. We will get a ruling in our favor. We are trying to circumvent that today, we wanted to address it to the board and give the board the opportunity to give Diann some direction on what their thoughts were on this issue and get a letter issued so we don’t have to continue to jump through the hoops. Really why we are here we went to the county originally to the Commissioners said we don’t want to step on the Area Plan toes, let them make the decision and then we ran into a brick wall from there. IDEM suggested that we just go to the Commissioners and have them write the letter and George Loy didn’t think there was a problem with the letter, but deferred to the Commissioners. The Commissioners said lets not step on the Area Plan Boards toes. Let’s, let them do it. We have had the full run around that has cost us 3 months on our project. We’d like to stop it because a lawsuit is going to cost my client another 3 months before we get a decision. A decision is in edible there is basically no way under the law of the State of Indiana or our current zoning ordinance that we can be denied access across lot 1 and we would like to cut to the quick if we could finalize this issue.

President Charles Anderson stated, let me talk to the commissioners first here.

David Rosenbarger stated, are we just talking about water.

Dow Dellinger stated, no this is for access across lot 1 for a driveway.

David Rosenbarger asked, why do you need access if you have access off of Division?

Dow Dellinger stated, because in the plan that we drew we wanted to utilize access off of, instead of Hanawalt we wanted it off of 300 basically we thought there would be less traffic and less damage on Hanawalt. We’ve tried to appease the local residence down Hanawalt by directing traffic away from Hanawalt Road.

David Rosenbarger stated, my question, this is new to me. I understand what you are talking about in all of your things of law, but to me that would be a land lock. There is still an in and out off of Division. Right.

Dow Dellinger stated, they have access off of Division correct, but we want to use lot 1 for the traffic pattern. It is zoned Agriculture.

David Rosenbarger stated, that is the part I’m having problems with. I could see where you could fight for access off of one coming off of 300 East if it was land locked, or no other access. Now you are asking for special access from what I’m looking at you don’t need it. You already have access off of Division.

Dow Dellinger stated, well we don’t need special access we are the property owner and we have the right to utilize the lot 1 for access for our lot 2. We aren’t asking for an easement across someone else’s property, we are asking to utilize our own property. Not being in your zoning ordinance says you can’t restrict us from that use.

Attorney Altman stated, I humbly disagree and I’ve told you that Mr. Dellinger. This wasn’t why this was on the agenda today it was to as I understood it, I asked for it to be on the agenda tonight for me to report on the removal of the containers that were on the lot that was north of here that I filed the lawsuit on. That is why I asked for it to be on the agenda tonight.

President Charles Anderson stated, he called and asked if he could speak to the board.

Attorney Altman stated, I didn’t know that, I didn’t know he had called and asked to speak to the board tonight. I guess what I’m saying that is what I understood and what I came here to talk about. I got a copy of the memorandum about 5 minutes before the meeting started so I could read it. In essence from the point of view of the law I don’t disagree with Mr. Dellinger’s basic law here. I just disagree and indicated to simple things support the position that I’ve taken and I’ve talked to Diann about. One is that we have constantly since 1972 with all ordinances required that every parcel of ground be zoned consistent with the primary use from which is being asked to use for. The second thing is on page 27, 3.2002 talks about accessory uses and says that “Accessory Uses such as the following are authorized in all districts: curbs, driveways, fences and hedges, lamp posts” and ectetra and ecteria is allowed there, but when you go to how accessory buildings or use is defined in our ordinance on page 3, it says it “is a subordinate building located on the same lot with the main building, or a subordinate use of the land, either of which is incidental to the main building or to the principle use of the land”. I guess the reason I fell like this is not a permitted use of lot 1 is because there is no permitted primary use on this lot 1 because of it’s zoning. It is zoned A-1 that is consistent with the accessory use that these people are wishing to do and this is what I agree, I couldn’t show one place where we had filed suit against anybody from stopping them from doing this. I agree with Mr. Dellinger and I don’ think it disposes of the issue just because I couldn’t say somebody got aggressive or got or went to court to challenge us. I don’t think that disposes of the issue. The ordinance I think because it says what it says, says that a primary and every lot has a primary use and the primary use for an agriculture lot is not to permit it to be what they wish to do and therefore an accessory use in the form of a driveway for that use is not a permitted accessory use. Even though a driveway would be permitted on there if that were zoned an I-2, since it isn’t I believe our ordinance says it can’t be used.

David Rosenbarger stated, one of the things that comes to mind is in the past and it all goes back, say that was allowed to use the driveway across there what happens the first time someone complains about him stopping before he crosses the imaginary lot line and parks a truck along the driveway.

President Charles Anderson stated, as far as a driveway it can’t be used as storage, it couldn’t be used for parking area for the business on that other lot. As far as I’m concerned if we allowed something like that, but I think in the past and I know on some businesses, especially in people’s houses we have just zoned the building, we didn’t rezone the driveway for anything to that. We have did that in different industry to, but I can’t think of any particular in business I think Gary Dedaker’s insurance business out here I don’t think we made him zoned his driveway to business.

Attorney Altman stated, I think it was apart of the original. Doc my memory and yours is as good as mine there, but I thought we went all the way to the highway.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think so.

Attorney Altman stated, certainly that.

President Charles Anderson asked, anyone else?

Attorney Altman stated, I may be wrong, but doc you may be right on that.

Dow Dellinger stated, just so we are clear. The zoning, the law and the State is the zoning ordinance is restrictive, it is not that you have to be zoned correctly for usage it is for you to restrict the use of the property. The zoning ordinance says nothing about the restriction of access, that is the problem. There is no restriction anywhere in the ordinance. As a matter of fact the ordinance says a driveway can be utilized any level of zoning.

Attorney Altman stated, there we disagree on what the ordinance says.

Dow Dellinger stated, you can disagree with it, but there is no place that restricts access, there is nothing in the ordinance that restricts access. Jerry you can’t add rules as the board feels, you have to read the zoning ordinance and it is not restrictive, you can’t restrict that use and there is no place that restricts the access.

Gary Barbour asked, what was presented before this property was even rezoned? What was presented to the board was it Area Plan or BZA or special exception. They had to have a special exception to get it zoned to use it.

David Rosenbarger stated, for lot 2.

Gary Barbour asked, what was presented I guess would be my question at that point and time and also were there any restrictions put on at that time during either one of those votes. Can anybody answer that?

Dow Dellinger stated, I know we have approval from the board for the special exception.

Gary Barbour stated, I understand that.

Dow Dellinger stated, I don’t know, the permit application was sometime in 2003, that you had it drafted.

Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, Diann is going to go get the file for the special exception for his prior predecessor when they got the approval.

Gary Barbour stated, that will shed more light on were we are heading here I think.

President Charles Anderson stated, when it was originally presented it wasn’t showing that they had a drive coming off of 300 it was showing a drive coming off of Division Road that was when it was a two story frame residence on there.

Don Ward asked, did you say that you wanted to come off of 300 E?

Dow Dellinger stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, this is the part that says easement for ingress/egress. That is the only way you can enter is here. You said you wanted to enter off of 300 E.

President Charles Anderson stated, here is the whole drawing of what. This is what was originally presented and shows it off of 300 E.

They are going over the paperwork and several are talking at once.

President Charles Anderson asked, where does that tile go? That tile comes through.

Several are talking at once.

David Rosenbarger stated, they do have an easement on Lot 1, but it is off of Division Road.

Dow Dellinger stated, yes, the have, they have spun that, I gave you guys the wrong easement lot, it should be. We didn’t get you the right one.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone in the audience want to respond to any of this?

I’m going to let you guys talk, but I really don’t think we can decide anything.

Attorney Altman stated, this hasn’t been properly noticed up.

President Charles Anderson stated, yes to be able to do this we have to run it through a notice.

Dow Dellinger stated, we just wanted to address it to the board and you guys couldn’t discuss it with Diann and if Diann still doesn’t read the interpretation that way our understanding is we would take it to the BZA and let them appeal it and then take our steps with the County Court if we need to. We wanted to make sure the board knew our issue and try to address to everyone what our issue was and give some sense to talk to Diann. I told Diann we didn’t want to blind-side her today that we were going to talk about it and give you some time to discuss that.

Bill Pyle asked, does this drawing misrepresent what you are trying to come across, isn’t that misrepresenting what you are telling this board tonight.

Dow Dellinger stated, well lets see what the drawing is. I made a mistake when I said it came off of 300, I thought the last drawing for the permit came off of 300 not off of Division. I’ve going to draft and over head and tell you in a minute. That may be the permit drawing, I thought it was the other way.

Bill Pyle stated, well what I understand what you are trying to do misrepresents what you are trying to do. This doesn’t show anything about Division Road or I mean Rangeline Road.

Someone is showing the map to Dow. Several are talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing that I can tell real quickly to sort of answer what you are asking for. The special exception was for Lot 2 not anything else. Lot 2 in Korpita Subdivision so it wasn’t anything with Lot 1. They are talking about tonight.

Gary Barbour stated, there were no restrictions on that property.

Attorney Altman stated, not on lot 2 or lot 1. There wasn’t any request to cross that lot 1, like they are asking tonight, and there wasn’t any grant allowing that on lot 1.

Gary Barbour stated, what about when we rezoned Lot 1.

President Charles Anderson stated, we didn’t.

Gary Barbour stated, no I don’t mean rezone, there wasn’t any restrictions.

Attorney Altman stated, I can’t tell you, I would have to look at the minutes to give you an answer to that.

Gary Barbour stated, that is what we need to look at, there was some type of restriction put on that lot on what they could or could not do there.

President Charles Anderson stated, that is one thing we are going to have to have Diann look into.

Attorney Altman stated, I would be glad to do that and report back to the board.

Gary Barbour stated, I thought when we rezoned that, that there was some type of restrictions.

Director Weaver stated, for lot 2 or lot 1.

President Charles Anderson stated, we didn’t rezone lot 1.

Director Weaver stated, lot 1 went it didn’t get zoned, so lot 2.

Gary Barbour stated, I thought there was some restrictions put on there.

Attorney Altman stated, there maybe on the special exception, but we need to check those minutes.

Director Weaver stated, are you deciding what you are wanting researched.

President Charles Anderson stated, yes.

Dow Dellinger stated, my mistake with the access is off of Division road instead of 300. The drawing you have is the last one that was submitted.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any other Commissioners have any questions on it? Does anyone else have any questions for Dow or VanWeelden? Jeff we asked you to move those dumpsters or containers off of those lots clear back in August. Why did it take so long to get them off of there?

Jeff VanWeelden stated, well I first moved all of the ones I operate with that I would possibly be using. I pulled off all of the ones that pertain to my business. Then the rest are the ones I left there are the ones that I wasn’t going to operate my business with.

President Charles Anderson stated, we had to use our lawyer to pursue getting those dumpsters taken off that lot over there. According to the board as long as you cleared that and we got it done by a certain time we were fine as long as you paid the lawyers fees. Are you willing to pay the $300 fees?

Jeff VanWeelden stated, yes.

President Charles Anderson asked, you are going to do that?

Jeff VanWeelden stated, yes.

President Charles Anderson stated, if you were allowed to put a drive through there, you realize it is in a, that would be subdivision and it would have to be at least 50’ wide, which if you are going to move trucks through there you would want something wide anyway. If it went through lots of a subdivision it would still have to meet the subdivisions size per drive through there too. Lets try to keep it down on how many people speak and how long, we really can’t discuss this.

Don Pauken stated, what subject are we on here the fine?

President Charles Anderson stated, the fine, we already fined them once. They didn’t move them again.

Don Pauken stated, that was correct but that was $500 for that one and that…

President Charles Anderson stated, right now what I’m asking for is the $300 in the legal fees so the taxpayers don’t have to pay the $300 in the legal fees.

Bill Pyle asked, is the Circuit Court thing done? Is that over, he hasn’t said what is going on there.

President Charles Anderson stated, they settled it out of court is what they’ve done.

Bill Pyle asked, they settled it out of court?

President Charles Anderson stated, yes.

Bill Pyle stated, well for 16 months they were in violation and not only that.

Attorney Altman stated, you need to come to the mic.

President Charles Anderson stated, you need to come to the mic.

Bill Pyle stated, I’m Bill Pyle. Not only were they out of violation there, but this lot 1 that we are talking about now that they are trying to get access across they’ve had dumpsters and trucks parked over there in violation of that zoning. Diann has taken pictures of it and it was on the agenda to be discussed here to night.

Director Weaver stated, that is another subject that we need to discuss about this property owner tonight.

Bill Pyle stated, you know 16 months in violation and a $500 fine they got off cheap he can do that again. He can do that again, that is cheaper than renting property.

President Charles Anderson stated, the next time he tries that the fine will be continuous as long as they are in there, we will try and stack it on there. There is a limitation as to what we can fine somebody.

Bill Pyle stated, he has done it again, Doc he has done it again on lot 1. Are you going to fine him on lot 1?

President Charles Anderson asked, is there proof that he has stuff on there?

Bill Pyle stated, she took pictures of it.

Director Weaver stated, I have information and there are pictures.

President Charles Anderson asked, are they the ones you took?

Director Weaver stated, some of these I have taken and some of them I have not taken. This is what I had given to the board at the last meeting.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you want to respond to that?

Jeff VanWeelden stated, I have containers parked next to my building that is zoned I-2 next to that building I have containers next to it.

President Charles Anderson stated, these pictures show them off of that.

Jeff VanWeelden stated, exactly why you know.

Bill Pyle stated, once again I just want, you said the next time he did that well this is the next time and we as landowners around there would like to see another fine at least.

President Charles Anderson asked, are these not your dumpsters?

Jeff VanWeelden stated, that one was set there when it got delivered it got set off there. When were these taken in November.

President Charles Anderson stated, you know you are being watched all of the time by the neighbors all around there and you now you are not suppose to use that lot for that reason.

Jeff VanWeelden stated, well I mean obviously I know I’m being watched I’m not trying. This here is my parking lot, that is not parked there over night, I mean.

President Charles Anderson stated, it isn’t suppose to be there at all.

David Rosenbarger stated, over night isn’t an issue, being there period.

Jeff VanWeelden stated, so when I pull in to a parking lot to get paperwork, I can’t pull in a parking lot and stop, it is just like pulling into a restaurant stopping to get lunch.

David Rosenbarger stated, what they are looking at is the dumpsters are setting on the ground.

Jeff VanWeelden stated, this is a picture of a truck and run right in. That truck is always parked around back it was there and someone was inside the shop.

Bill Pyle stated, I want to make one more comment if I could. You know I’ve said from day one it appears that he might be thumbing his nose at the ordinances and the county laws. We feel that way that is what worries us about what is going on down there. When he gets a trash transfer station what chances and what accusations are we going to have to make to get him in forced. We are worried about that he is a risk taker. You know what you said it tonight, you said look that thing has been worked out of the court, next time he does it, this is the next time.

Jeff VanWeelden stated, this one right here.

President Charles Anderson stated, really to do this at all we have to put this the notice and bring back a fine legally we have to do that. I think we are going to have to do something about it. Actually tonight what we were here tonight was to decide if we could put a driveway across lot 1. I don’t know.

Don Ward stated, what it looks like is you are adding on another area. Why not ask for a rezone?

Rezone that piece.

??? stated, sir we were talking about coming off of 300 E. The drawing didn’t match that at all. I could see a reason if you wanted to come off of 300 E. You’ve got access off of Division Road so actually if we give you the right to use it.

David Rosenbarger stated, it makes lot 2 bigger

Dow Dellinger stated, that is essentially what it does, you can’t build on it, you can’t add on to it.

David Rosenbarger stated, you can’t park on it.

Tom Parsley stated, is it my turn. My name is Tom Parsley. I live North of Rangeline Properties about a quarter of mile. I set at my breakfast table every morning to see what is going on down there. I can tell you right now I’ve got pictures in my camera at home that hasn’t been developed yet showing a truck and big covered dumpster full of trash I assume setting on lot one. When I went down to take the picture of this one of his drivers came by and got out of his truck and wanted to know if I need some help or something. By this time I got what I wanted and I left. Within 30 minutes both of the trucks and the dumpsters disappeared off of lot 1. I think a fine should be levied too.

President Charles Anderson stated, right now we have to re-advertise.

Tom Parsley stated, he said while ago that all of these remain there and there was about 15 or 20 of them that stayed there until December 30 about 12:00. A truck pulled in there and started picking them up I watched them and they took them to the junkyard all except two. Two of these dumpster are no good, not being used wand up on lot 2, so when he tells you all that is setting there is junk that is not right. Or at least he is using junk dumpsters for business he put two of them on lot 2. I think a fine should be imposed.

President Charles Anderson stated, one more can speak and then we have to shut this off.

Don Pauken stated, I’m Don Pauken. I’m looking at this exhibit that was presented to you in that package by Mr. Dellinger and don’t be mislead that easement that is begin shown here is needed for the business the trash transfer business because of the loaded containers which compressed garbage. He needs that area there if he only needed an access from 300 to come in to that area which he doesn’t need because like you say he is already coming off Division and he has access that way. He still wouldn’t be able to operate the business because he doesn’t need all of this space is what I’m saying. He is showing that space because he needs it for the business of putting 50 containers in to be loaded and carrying the loaded containers out.

President Charles Anderson stated, it does free up more space on his lot.

Don Pauken stated, it is not only for access of the trucks coming in and out, but also to operate the business as far as the compressed material and the containers to haul the compressed material.

Bill Pyle stated, you are not talking about one zone here, one zoning. It has to be zoned I-1 first with a special exception.

??? stated, I-2.

Bill Pyle stated, no it has to be zoned I-1 first and then gets a special exception. So that is two zonings, that is what you are going to redo by doing or allowing that, you are going to be changing two zonings on lot 1. It has to be zoned I-1 with a special exception to give it I-2 for trash. This county decided it was important enough to anything that handles trash to have two special zonings. Now he wants you to disallow that and let him drive across there. Those garbage trucks are going to be hauling garbage one way or the other. Probably both ways and that is in use of the business, so that is not the way the zoning is made.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the Commissioners want to respond to that?

Director Weaver asked, Denny do they have to have a retention pond for the drainage?

Jeff VanWeelden stated, it has already been decided by the County.

Dennis Sterrett stated, no it was approved by the county. It was approved by the Drainage Board yes.

Director Weaver stated, the drainage easement that is here is that pond going on lot 1?

Dennis Sterrett stated, yes.

Dow Dellinger stated, as far as the zoning for the use of the second lot, we’ve got approve from Diann for the use in the permit process. The zoning is correct for that basically all we need is access to use for the space to get the trucks into that spot. That is what we are asking for, we are not asking for expand the site at all. They are only asking for access into that lot.

David Rosenbarger asked, is that line defined where you can drive by and see which is lot 1 and lot 2?

Bill Pyle stated, there is a telephone pole.

Jeff VanWeelden stated, there is a telephone on lot 1, if that is the property line then I’m actually only….

Several are talking at once.

President Charles Anderson stated, there are to many people talking at once.

David Rosenbarger stated, my concern was what has gone on in the past is an unfortunate nightmare. You are going to have constantly with that line and driveway, he is going to be fined every time he turns around. If he sets a dumpster off in that and if he gets an okay on that, I mean you are just asking for problems.

Dow Dellinger stated, and we asked to rezone it just so we didn’t have these issues.

David Rosenbarger stated, I understand.

Dow Dellinger stated, there is industrial on the South of him and industrial on the West of him, the entire corner except lot 1, industrial. We would love to have it industrial we wouldn’t be having this discussion. When the zoning was denied we are here in front of you trying to enforce our property rights under the State of Indiana. The law is if the zoning ordinance doesn’t say we can’t do it, we can do it. That is why we are here, I would love to have it Industrial and we could use that whole corner and we wouldn’t be here having this conversation. Talking about Jeff not paying fines, I’ve got news for you, he has a $10,000 bill from our office, he still owes the engineer what $6,000 there and he just paid out of pocket so we can make sure we meet the Drainage Board about $6000, there is nothing cheap about this project. These guys have costs of $20,000 at this point and time.

President Charles Anderson stated, it is there ever right to be able to do that.

Dow Dellinger stated, and I’m saying they can, they are saying there is no penalty here, I’ve got new for you there are lots of penalties been paid on this project.

President Charles Anderson stated, my problem was why did it take so long to get those out of there when we asked them to be moved? Then all of a sudden he wants to come before us and present something new and then all of a sudden they mysteriously leave the property on the other side.

Dow Dellinger stated, they left the property after Jerry and I discussed. Our argument was we had junk and Jerry gave us an offer and we accepted it and that they were gone and pay the penalty.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that is right, we resolved that issue.

Dow Dellinger stated, Jerry gave me an offer and I said I’d call and say we take it and then they will be off of there.

Attorney Altman stated, I talked to Don, Gary and I talked to several of the board members and that was the proposal they said to give to Rangeline since they had already imposed the fine. I did that in a letter and I agree with that. Beyond that I don’t think we were in a position to do anything else.

Bill Pyle stated, as some of the landowners out there, I think you are being, you are making a lot of deals with this guy, and we don’t appreciate, okay. You are making it easy for him and…

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think we’ve made a deal yet at all other than solve the problem of getting rid of the dumpsters.

Bill Pyle stated, he was going to get rid of those when he says those dumpster were over and not a part of his business,

President Charles Anderson stated, well the dumpsters…

Bill Pyle stated, wait a minute, he owned them and he left 2 or 3 of them there. He did that for 16 months it wasn’t just a couple of months.

President Charles Anderson stated, as long as we knew about it before we sent him a letter, it was in.

Director Weaver stated, his attempt to rezone was in December.

Jeff VanWeelden stated, the Commissioners made their final decision that they actually went in to effect was not that long.

President Charles Anderson stated, which was back in August. At that point we probably should have started fining him again, but we didn’t. I apologize to you guys for that and there is one reason I just wanted to get them off of there is to get it done and over with.

Bill Pyle stated, now he has done it again.

President Charles Anderson stated, because of our ordinance we can not act. I will ask the board members do you want to bring him back, we have to advertise this for a meeting to bring up these new discretion or the dumpsters being in the wrong spot and talk about a fine at this next meeting. Anyone want to make a motion?

David Rosenbarger stated, I will make the motion.

President Charles Anderson stated, now as far as the driveway across there, anybody have any idea how we want to proceed about that?

Gary Barbour stated, I would like to see us get some more information. I would like to look at the past minutes.

President Charles Anderson stated, as what.

Gary Barbour stated, I would like to see us review the past minutes from BZA and Area Plan.

President Charles Anderson stated, you want to review the past minutes and how about any precedence or things like that. Do you want to go that way?

Jay Clawson stated, we don’t have any precedence of letting someone accept an access easement across the lot, I’d like to see the Judge make the determination whether our ordinance is outside the law.

President Charles Anderson stated, so we can bring that…

Jay Clawson stated, instead of us trying to determine that. Dow presented his case, but I’m not a lawyer, I’m an appliance man.

Dow Dellinger stated, we ask if that is the case we would like to take it to the BZA as soon as possible, so we can get our suit filed, we can’t do anything until we go through all of our administrative options.

President Charles Anderson asked, who on the board right now would want to deny this so he can pursue his next?

Attorney Altman stated, this isn’t before us.

President Charles Anderson stated, we can’t do it anyway.

Bill Pyle asked, was it on the meeting minutes tonight or was it ever supposed to be on the agenda?

David Rosenbarger stated, we can’t do anything on this tonight.

Several are talking at once.

President Charles Anderson stated, it was not on the agenda, we weren’t suppose to discuss it, but I allowed you guys to discuss so you could vent your objections to it to. All he wanted to do was present it to the board what he wanted to do to find out if he could do it. The rest of this we didn’t have to hash it over at all. We probably shouldn’t have done that, there have been meetings you’ve come to and haven’t been able to vent and you’ve been upset over that so I allowed you to vent. We will actually have it advertised and bring it to the next meeting.

David Rosenbarger asked, in the mean time can we have those records available for the next meeting?

President Charles Anderson stated, yes, and see if there was any precedence set.

Director Weaver asked, anything else besides the minutes?

President Charles Anderson stated, if there is any precedence or if anyone can fine anything. That will slow you down for another month.

Dow Dellinger stated, well I think we can ask Diann to make the, or write her for her theory on the zoning ordinance or her ruling so we can take it to BZA. We wanted to present it to you guys to see if you had any impute in it before we made that request.

Director Weaver stated, you are still looking at February.

Dow Dellinger stated, right. So I don’t know if.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think there is any way to stop that either.

Attorney Altman stated, we would be happy to get that determination so you can make your appeal.

Bill Pyle stated, we would like for the thing with the next violation to be brought before this board before that is even addressed.

President Charles Anderson stated, we can not stop that.

Bill Pyle stated, no she has the violation we would like that to be resolved.

Director Weaver stated, which it would be because the APC meets before.

Bill Pyle stated, before anything else happens we want that addressed.

Director Weaver stated, the APC meets before the BZA, so I can put it on both February agenda’s.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other questions out there? Okay next on the business we will be addressing the new ordinance.

Director Weaver stated, the addressing ordinance. This is something that I sent to you guys about changing the name of the roads. We need to adopt an ordinance we need to make an ordinance to address when someone wants to change the name of a road. The Commissioners have turned this over to us to handle so we now have to come up with a procedure of how we want to handle it.

President Charles Anderson stated, that would change 911 addressing and everything.

Director Weaver stated, yes right. Area Plan handles all of the 911 addressing. I don’t know if everyone is aware of that, but we do.

President Charles Anderson stated, I would think anyone on that road would have to agree with a change of address. I don’t think one person should be able to dictate to another person that they are going to have to change their address just because they want to.

David Rosenbarger asked, if it is a private drive how does it get an address, would their address come out to a public road?

Director Weaver stated, the rhyme or reason of that I can’t tell you. Initially I don’t know how that was done, we were not involved in that. I don’t know how that decision was made. This property that this is pertaining to this particular that brought this supposable they own the road. There are only 3 houses on the road. There are only 3 landowners.

President Charles Anderson stated, they would have to pay any cost involved in changing the 911 addressing. Any cost involved in the Area Plan office for changing the address. Any other?

Attorney Altman stated, it needs to be posted and advertised.

President Charles Anderson stated, yes posted.

Attorney Altman stated, similar to our ordinance now. I think you are hitting it on the head anyone on or that uses that road ought to be in the loop.

Don Ward asked, are we going to have a hearing for it?

Attorney Altman stated, I would think so.

President Charles Anderson stated, that would be county wide too.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

President Charles Anderson stated, it would have to be brought before all of the town boards.

Attorney Altman stated, I think…

Director Weaver stated, the ordinance, is that what you are saying?

President Charles Anderson stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, are they asking us to make a decision or make a recommendation and they no to Monticello, Monon, or Wolcott.

Director Weaver stated, my understanding from them is it lies in our hands.

President Charles Anderson stated, the rule would change and I think we could handle it with the Commissioners. If it is a town change I think it would have to go to the them just like a zoning would, go before the town board.

Terry Beasy stated, would you substitute the term, I’m not official, but substitute the term people who have the address on the road with the people who abut the road because they could have a future address. So wouldn’t it be proper to be all of the abutters to the road if you are going to change the road.

President Charles Anderson stated, I’d say property owners abutting the road too.

Attorney Altman stated, or just a home on there.

President Charles Anderson stated, or you just do away with the road.

Several are talking at once.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone else have any questions or additions to add?

David Rosenbarger stated, my questions is driving around the country when you go into an area that has a private drive which is what they are trying to say you will see 1 mail boxes out on the county road. Why do they have an address other than lot 1, 2, 3 whatever?

President Charles Anderson stated, they have to have a 911 address.

Attorney Altman stated, it is for emergency.

David Rosenbarger stated, well you have trailer parks and it is lot 1, 2, 3 and the address it out on the main drag.

Director Weaver stated, I think what Dave is saying why aren’t they addressing off the main road.

President Charles Anderson stated, the mail being delivered has to have a 911.

Director Weaver stated, which some of them are done that way, what the rhyme or reason was to how they did it.

Dennis Sterrett stated, the property is meets and bounds I think, they are not lots.

Director Weaver stated, true I think that is right. I think you have given me enough to start drafting something up.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay next on the agenda is the improvement location permits.

Director Weaver stated, yes. As you know I have discussed this before, the Building Department and the Area Plan Department are separating. Currently Area Plan has handled all of the money and both departments have looked at the information and one fee is paid it was collected by Area Plan. With this split the fees for building permits will no longer go into the Area Plan receipts, it will go to the building department receipts. Area Plan will still have to review the site plans and for zoning and parking, landscaping, all of these things. I need to know because we are trying to get our new program done for our book keeping. I need to know how the board wants to handle these improvement location permits. Do we actually want a permit or do we just want a stamp and sign off on them, do we want to charge a fee?

David Rosenbarger stated, you don’t do the background check.

Director Weaver stated, I still have to do the background check. I still have to look at all of the site plans and still have to look at zoning.

David Rosenbarger stated, you can split a fee with them.

Director Weaver stated, the biggest part of the fee is to cover the inspections that the building department does.

David Rosenbarger stated, okay is it 75 – 25 percent for when a fee is paid like that, does one department bill the other one. It is just paper work.

Director Weaver stated, that is what I’m asking what do you want us to do because in the past it has all been lumped together.

David Rosenbarger stated, right, if they are going to split the two departments they both deserve reimbursement. There are something’s that the building department does not require permits for, but yet Area Plan Department does, like fences, patios, those type of things. He doesn’t inspect them and he doesn’t have anything to do with them.

President Charles Anderson stated, is that fee coming to you then or does the fee go.

Director Weaver stated, right now there is no fee that comes to Area Plan at all for these. We need to, right now it is all set up as one fee.

David Rosenbarger stated, I understand before the split was there a charge for a fence.

Director Weaver stated, yes there was a charge.

Jay Clawson stated. it isn’t a business that is going to fail by not having that money come in, it is going to the county any way. I mean.

Director Weaver stated, he would prefer not to have anything to do with a fence permit or a patio. He doesn’t inspect them.

Jay Clawson stated, the money is all being taking in by the building department what is the big deal, I mean you won’t show any revenue coming in, but you are still doing the same work that you always have, I mean our responsibility is still the same. Every permit issued you still have the same criteria that you have to do no matter what. Sure you aren’t having money deposited in the thing and actually you don’t have to worry about taking time out of your day to count the money and go to the bank and deposit the money.

David Rosenbarger stated, what about fence permits are you going to do away with them.

Director Weaver stated, signs either.

David Rosenbarger stated, if you don’t get a permit it is kind of hard to enforce, billboards and stuff.

Jay Clawson stated, well I mean she was talking about improvement location permits. If there are certain things they are not doing, then yea money should be taken in for that, but to worry about, you know there is already part of that bill in the building permit that is used to take care of the fees associated to that and then they added on a bunch for the inspection process. If there is something that Dave is not doing and you know we should have a set fee for getting that permit.

David Rosenbarger stated, I guess my other question is everybody is suppose to go to Dave for a building permit, but they walk in for a fence permit, is he going to tell them they need to go see area plan for that permit.

Director Weaver stated, well with the remodel.

David Rosenbarger stated, or do we tell Dave that he is going to do all permits.

Director Weaver stated, with the remodeling we are going to be separate, but we are going to be together. When they get done with the remodeling you are going to walk into the office and there is going to be a long counter there that is going to be Area Plan behind that long counter and to the left is going to be Building Department.

David Rosenbarger stated, so it is still going to be it he same room.

Director Weaver stated, yes, so it isn’t like they are going to have to go down the hall.

David Rosenbarger asked, is that in Dave’s ordinance that he doesn’t do fences, and signs or is that just something he decided?

Director Weaver stated, he goes by the State Building codes and the State does not have any codes for those type things.

David Rosenbarger stated, we have an ordinance for them.

Director Weaver stated, we have setback requirements for them.

David Rosenbarger stated, I would say that you are going to want to keep doing that or you have no control. If they are coming into the same room you are going to know that.

Director Weaver stated, we should.

David Rosenbarger stated, is someone comes in asking for a permit to put a fence up or sign that Dave is not carrying, the people in your office ought to hear that and say that is us.

President Charles Anderson asked, how does Dave want to handle the money part of it, does he care?

Director Weaver stated, his secretary is handling their money, I do not have any part of that money. They will have their own receipts and we will have our own receipts.

President Charles Anderson stated, so if you are going to do the fence permits, the sign permits, I’d say that ought to give you, it all goes into the same county fund. Do our permits cover the cost of building inspections and Area Plan?

Director Weaver stated, we really don’t have a building permit fee anymore. He has the building permit fee.

President Charles Anderson stated, no, but the county still has to cover some of the cost.

Director Weaver stated, the fees that he charges are suppose to cover his inspections.

Jay Clawson stated, at first it was just a small fee.

Director Weaver stated, right, when he came on the fees went up considerably.

Jay Clawson stated, yes they figure so much for inspections to go out.

Attorney Altman stated, a lot more work going on.

President Charles Anderson stated, what do you think about tacking on more fees on to it to try to cover the cost. Do you think people will get too upset?

Director Weaver stated, I think if we keep it at a, I mean for a fence I don’t think they to pay, right now it is $30. I think that is assess, I don’t think it should be that high since there is no inspections. To me $15 to $20 is sufficient. Mainly it is our time to review their plan and that type of thing.

President Charles Anderson stated, the Council is the one who funds it the Commissioners.

Director Weaver stated, I did talk to one of the Commissioners today and he really didn’t have an opinion he felt it should be up to us and he trusted us with making the proper decision.

President Charles Anderson stated, you think you ought to charge an extra fee on top of what Dave is charging for what you do.

Director Weaver stated, I hate to do it, but I hate for us not to receive anything for our time and effort.

Jay Clawson stated, if you guys where a business like mine and you needed the money, you would know, but it is all going to the same thing it is a mute point. Yeah you can say your office took in this much money, but it is still the same.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know if this could be done, but the thought had crossed my mine that he allow like $15.00 for each of his permits for the expense and the time for the Area Plan Department and it be charged all as one.

Jay Clawson stated, it doesn’t matter it is all one fee, it goes to the county and if you would have to worry about not meeting pay roll because you are not getting this, your people are going to get paid. You are going to get your pay no matter what how it is taken in.

Director Weaver stated, that is what I’m saying.

Jay Clawson stated, it is just more bookkeeping to support it there and get there and then Dave would have to do and then his secretary would have to worry about all of the money and the books. That gives you time to catch up on some of your work that they are putting on you like addressing and all of that.

President Charles Anderson stated, it could be a 15% figure and…

Jay Clawson stated, right the county council knows that $50 out of every fee is Area Plans work that we have to do to make this go. They will take us for granted that every, you know we issued 500 permits or 1000 permits last year and that $50 of that was work that my department does, I mean who care how the money is handled.

Director Weaver stated, but what do we do about the items that he doesn’t deal with.

Jay Clawson stated, that is what I’m saying we know to bring those things out at the next meeting and have a proposal of what is done and what we can go with and just charge those people. The rest of it don’t worry about it.

David Rosenbarger stated, all we need to cover is what he is not going to worry about.

Jay Clawson stated, right we just have the two things the signs and fences just charge for those.

President Charles Anderson stated, one of the problems is that when she goes before the County Council to ask for more money too, she is not making a dime.

Jay Clawson stated, you need to let them know that there is no revenue coming in to this department anymore because it is all going tot he building department.

David Rosenbarger stated, they know that up front it isn’t a problem.

Jay Clawson stated, I mean they decided to take that away from you.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I spent $150,000 putting tiles in last year and we didn’t bring in anything in the surveyor’s office.

Several are talking at once.

Director Weaver stated, I need approval on the attorney’s fees. You have a claim from Jerry and a claim from Dow.

Several are talking at once.

Charles Mellon stated, I’ll make a motion.

Jay Clawson stated, I will second it.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other business?

Charles Mellon stated, a person’s house burnt down and they want to build it in the same place and I thought I heard a few years ago that if your house burnt you couldn’t build back on the same foundation.

Director Weaver stated, it has to meet the current setbacks.

President Charles Anderson stated, it has to meet the current setbacks.

Charles Mellon stated, the setbacks would be different.

Several are talking at once.

****

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission