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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, June 12, 2006, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jay Clawson, Charles Anderson, Charles Mellon, Donald W. Ward, Greg Bossaer, Robert Thomas, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Michael J. Scheurich, Noel F. Lyons (Deputy), Robert W. Gross (R.W. Gross & Assoc.), and Dale Winger. Also attending was Joe Bumbleburg, Attorney with Ball, Eggleston.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Charles Mellon made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the May 8, 2006 meeting. Motion was seconded by Don Ward and carried unanimously.


#06-6 Caco Properties, Inc.; Requesting approval of a Planned Unit Development to be known as High Pointe on the Lake Condominiums on Lots 1, 2, 3 and 21 in Lakeside Heights Addition. The property is located North of Indiana Beach Road off of West Shafer Drive on Pony Lane.

President Charles Anderson asked, any body here representing that request?

Joe Bumbleburg stated, thanks Mr. Chairman. My name is Joe Bumbleburg with Ball, Eggleston at Lafayette. I have Bob Gross, our surveyor here with us and Mike Scheurich, the petitioner is also here this evening.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you want to make a presentation to us first?

Joe Bumbleburg stated, well, okay we’ve got some drawings here that we might want to just kind of show you to get us started. That’s the advertisement and I don’t think you really need that.

Here is a Wick Rimert, I don’t know how many of you may know Wick. Wick is a prominent architect, I guess he is really not an architect but he is a prominent designer of buildings and that sort of thing and this whole area he has a reputation for designing really beautiful looking buildings. He has done several in Lafayette and so. This is an artist rendering of the lake side view. This is the street view of one of the buildings. To give you some idea of where we are headed for that. And over here is a drawing that kind of shows the footprint of the buildings and Mike you can kind of be an easel for me. And we’ll show that to them now. Just and then we have a kind of a plan, a footprints of the buildings themselves of what the units might look like if you are curious about that. The element…

Attorney Altman asked, are those similar to the foot print that is put into evidence and…

Joe Bumbleburg stated, I think that those are very close to the…yeah it’s a copy, Jerry.

Attorney Altman stated, okay just so that we have those as the exhibits.

Joe Bumbleburg stated, okay, yes you have then the right copies. The plan is to build, well first of all let me say this, we are dealing with point seven five acre upon which we would like to build ten units. A planned development that would encompasses four lots that Mike owns. These are to be residential in character and I’m gonna kind of trying to go through tag words that are in this section of the ordinance. The parking in these buildings will be in garages the rule of two per unit will be adequately handled by putting both of those cars into a two-car garage. The buildings are going to be, as you can see, essentially two stories high with a basement and the theory is to do a condo conversion which would then permit these units to be sold on an individual basis, which is the standard way to do that. Bob Gross could tell you about the utilities as can Mike. And essentially what we have here is a awfully nice looking development that will provide in due course the opportunity for ownership by people to live along the lake in these condominiums that we get them built and that’s it in a nut shell. I don’t know that I need to keep this prodding much more than that and would rather let the three of us try feel questions that you might have. To, that would help us further talk about this project.

President Charles Anderson asked, first of is there anybody in the audience that has any questions about this request at all? Commissioners have any questions?

Don Ward asked, what about ingress and egress? What’s the road situation?

Joe Bumbleburg asked, Bob could you speak to that?

Bob Gross stated, probably just this one here probably showed best. There is an existing loop drive that comes here. And would, this drive would come off of that then.

Don Ward asked, what’s the width of that? Do you know? Is that private or?

Bob Gross stated, that would be a private drive and it’s about twenty feet wide.

Robert Thomas asked, we usually require more than that, do we not?

Jay Clawson stated, on normal subdivisions.

Don Ward stated, about forty, fifty feet.

Jay Clawson stated, on Northbrooke we allowed… what was the width of the roads in Northbrooke condominiums? Twenty-two feet something like twenty?

Director Weaver stated, I can’t tell you off the top of my head. I don’t remember.

Jay Clawson stated, that’s the one on North Main Street. With the width of the road but there was no parking.

Don Ward stated, width of the pavement.

Jay Clawson stated, right.

President Charles Anderson asked, how would fire equipment and things turn around in there?

Bob Gross stated, I assume the fire truck would pull up and I mean this drive is actually a little wider. Would be able to pull up and either pull down and back up or work around that twenty foot drive.

Don Ward asked, what is the black existing right-of-way of the private drive?

Bob Gross stated, actually there is an easement that goes through there right now.

President Charles Anderson asked, what’s that easement for? I think that was ingress, egress wasn’t it.

Don Ward stated, something designed in nineteen twenty-three.

Attorney Altman asked, but is it dedicated, is it still dedicated?

Don Ward asked, are you gonna be on your own property there in that triangle?

Mike Scheurich stated, yes.

Bob Gross stated, I believe this is still a privately held easement.

President Charles Anderson asked, are these going to have access to the water at all then? Or, I know the lake is there but…

Bob Gross stated, yes the lake’s down here.

President Charles Anderson asked, are there going to be docks and things down on…

Attorney Altman stated, you have to answer out loud, please.

Mike Scheurich stated, yes there will be docks if one so desires.

President Charles Anderson asked, then how will they access them right from their property?

Mike Scheurich stated, yes there is if you have good eyesight on the print it shows a boat access road, which is not correct terminology. It is a golf cart road or a walk way down to the lake.

President Charles Anderson asked, would it be through that…

Mike Scheurich stated, right here.

Jay Clawson asked, and then they will have like common boathouses? Like you will have a row of them, they can enter their own boathouse.

Dave Scott stated, yeah it will be like right in front of their unit, it’s gonna be like a…

Mike Scheurich stated, I don’t know how that would be it would be slips that you would put in there. There’s a lot of frontage there to do virtually whatever…

President Charles Anderson asked, how many foot of frontage is there? You got any idea?

Mike Scheurich stated, three hundred plus or minus fifty.

Don Ward stated, that’s not gonna be a boat launching or anything.

Mike Scheurich stated, no.

Don Ward stated, so they can build their dock and come in from somewhere else.

Attorney Altman asked, how are going to hold that bank? That’s twenty-five feet, twenty-eight feet going down. That access road.

Mike Scheurich stated, that’s Bob’s department to engineer that.

Attorney Altman stated, tell us about how you are going to do that.

Bob Gross stated, well if we have to, we’ll do retaining walls there. We’ve done different methods of erosion control but depending on the slops that we get into we may have to do retaining walls.

President Charles Anderson asked, as far as the whole front of that, are you going to have a sea wall in front of that?

Mike Scheurich stated, yes.

President Charles Anderson asked, what’s there now?

Mike Scheurich stated, a lot of erosion. Just natural.

Jay Clawson asked, with that being a narrow road are you planning on putting like sprinkler systems in these, with it being a planned unit?

Mike Scheurich stated, only of required.

Jay Clawson stated, okay.

Mike Scheurich stated, because there would, they all have to be individual units. So all of your drafts stops and everything has to be in place for the construction. So I don’t know that there is a requirement of residential sprinkler code that needs to be met. I don’t believe that there is but I’m not sure.

Jay Clawson stated, cause without being any municipal water there you know I would like to either see something either a wider road because if you’re gonna have to… if there ever is a fire you, everything would have to come in and out on tankers. Where if there was a sprinkler system in there, you would have less traffic with having to get water to them.

Mike Scheurich asked, what do you mean, a wider road off of West Shafer or a wider road to suck out of the lake for fire?

Jay Clawson stated, no they probably, we don’t they transfer water more than they do actually pull it out of the lake that close to town. Cause they ride up on the corner of trios is where the city water ends, so they would probably haul tankers back and forth. I can see a twenty-foot road if there ever was just trying to get in, you know, dump water and get back out. That’s one of the reasons that we’ve always asked for wider roads is just because once you get one piece of equipment in it’s just hard to get anything else…

Mike Scheurich stated, the one thing that one would see if they were to drive back and I don’t see the other adjoining property owner, he must have left but, what is this is poor. The road that would really access this there exists a lane.

Director Weaver asked, is that the gravel?

Mike Scheurich stated, yes.

Director Weaver stated, they have pictures and I’ve shown that in the pictures.

Mike Scheurich stated, there is not much there for a, there isn’t anything there for a road. It’s a gravel lane and that has to be improved to make something like this work. You know it’s wide enough to get your car down there. You know, you are not going to meet somebody on that. And so that’s I don’t think that I would attempt to construct something of that nature and have it access by a gravel lane. I think the only right way to do that is to start in with the concrete and know what the requirements are. But it’s my understanding that used to be a driveway back to a house and then somebody graveled it for access and made that made Pony Lane continue and make that a big horse shoe back in there. But that is there, I don’t believe that there is too much rhyme or reason on this 1923 plan might be present to you. It does show an easement or an access but it was just a driveway and then they took a fence down and put some gravel in and now the people that use the resort to the north can you know have an entrance or and exit.

President Charles Anderson asked, it doesn’t actually go through there now then?

Mike Scheurich stated, that is correct. But I don’t know that there is that that gravel lane is maintained or that it has a proper name on it.

President Charles Anderson stated, it would be a private drive is what it would be, cause it’s all private drives, it’s probably not even recorded.

Mike Scheurich stated, well Pony Lane is though.

Director Weaver stated, yeah, off of West Shafer Drive is Pony Lane, or the horseshoe is Pony Lane.

Jay Clawson asked, is your easement going to the left, the short piece going out to Indiana Beach Road?

Mike Scheurich stated, no it goes to the back of Bay Pointe Resort. I mean, it’s a building with where the engineering stakes were put it runs into the back of a building.

President Charles Anderson asked, what do your neighbors around there have to say about it?

Mike Scheurich stated, well the one neighbor left so, there is only one that’s adjoining property owner and he sat out there and talked to me for ten or fifteen minutes and I figured that he was going to walk in and listen but…

President Charles Anderson asked, did he say anything to you?

Director Weaver stated, no he didn’t but I saw him sitting there talking to Mike when I got here so.

Mike Scheurich stated, and then so he is the only affected property owner and he wanted to know what setbacks were. And I said I don’t know it’s in a red book here and then wanted to know what we were doing for privacy or landscape between the properties. And I said that we’ve got a lot of steps to cover before we get there. And then so…

President Charles Anderson asked, where’s his property set down there?

Mike Scheurich stated, his property is to the north.

Attorney Altman asked, is that Lot 22?

Mike Scheurich stated, 22 and 23 maybe.

Don Ward asked, who owns all of the other lots, in the bush here?

Mike Scheurich stated, I do.

Don Ward asked, you own all that?

Attorney Altman asked, you own lot 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 to the south?

Joe Bumbleburg stated, he owns lots 1-8 inclusive and 10-21 inclusive and a thing called Lakeside Heights Addition, Jerry.

Attorney Altman stated, okay. Fair enough. He doesn’t own 9 then?

Joe Bumbleburg stated, I have the deed.

Mike Scheurich stated, 22 and 23 is what the adjoining property owner has.

Attorney Altman asked, is it serviced by the sewer?

Mike Scheurich stated, it will be I have asked three times now for a letter of, that’s exactly who it served by because the adjoining property owners are. And I asked the superintendent to submit me a letter on three different occasions and he said that he would and he said that he would and I come tonight without it. He said that it would be served without an issue and then I’ve also got a letter from Nipsco for gas and electric.

Attorney Altman asked, you understand that would be a requirement?

Mike Scheurich stated, yes.

President Charles Anderson asked, what kind of price range are you talking about on these condominiums? Do you have any idea yet?

Mike Scheurich stated, there is a lot of work and ground to cover before a final price would be…

President Charles Anderson asked, do you have anything close or an idea? The only other thing would be children back in there. It’s gonna be pretty salty then.

Mike Scheurich stated, I guess that would be a matter of ones opinion, I don’t…

President Charles Anderson stated, no but I mean that you know if you had a lot of youths back in there. It’s pretty confined for them too. As they get older traffic in and out too, it would be pretty confined for them.

Attorney Altman stated, it would be very confining with kids in there.

President Charles Anderson stated, that’s what I’m saying. There is a price range really elevated, which it probably will be that would rule out some people. Just as far as younger couples and things.

Mike Scheurich stated, I think that there is without question a market to try to solicit with more than likely ultimately will be and you know as far as the price range.

Jay Clawson stated, mostly retired or semi retired type people that are two homes, one north, and one south maybe.

Mike Scheurich stated, theirs is middle-aged people that should have that money to work with from another part of the region than here. There’s some stairs involved in our floor plan so that would… so that is going to target an audience also.

Attorney Altman asked, Diann would you talk about the density and compare it with the relative zoning?

Director Weaver stated, I do not have any figures on density.

Attorney Altman asked, do you have any figures on the density, square foot per unit?

Bob Gross stated, we have a total. The total density is the total building density is twelve thousand nine hundred and ten square feet. And the ¾ of an acre is thirty three thousand five hundred and forty one square feet.

Charles Mellon stated, yeah, that leaves some green space behind across the lane.

Mike Scheurich stated, in between, yeah.

Attorney Altman asked so it will be about thirty three hundred square foot per unit, Diann? What is that compared to R-2, R-3 that sort of thing in requirements in our ordinance?

President Charles Anderson asked, any of the commissioners have any questions for Mike here?

Charles Mellon stated, Quail Run out here put up a lot of things similar to them units and he’s been trying to sell them for five or six years.

President Charles Anderson stated, that really doesn’t have anything to do with it. Whether he can sell them or not really doesn’t have much to do with us does it?

Charles Mellon stated, we never proved that he could sell them, or one unit. We are over hauling the book now I think that’s gonna come up in the book if we get it done. But he says that he is gonna sell units out of them, not the whole thing. So it hasn’t been allowed out there in Quail Run so how much difference is these units?

Jay Clawson stated, well his wasn’t done as a planned unit development.

Director Weaver stated, no it wasn’t. He never presented a planned unit development.

Jay Clawson stated, he came in and just put those in with setbacks. That was never done as a planned unit development.

Charles Mellon stated, well after he got them all built, it’s the same thing.

Jay Clawson stated, well these are, that’s what the planned unit development is for is to be…

Joe Bumbleburg asked, did I understand this right? You are rewriting your book right now?

Charles Mellon stated, yes.

Joe Bumbleburg stated, then if I am free to offer a suggestion, on your planned unit development districts ought to be a p.d.c.c., condo conversion. And you build that right into the system and I can share those with Jerry if comes down to Lafayette and do business with me. I’d be happy to do that because it works that way. Bob and I have experienced with several where you indeed if you have the ordinance drawn in some ways you can not have a condo if you don’t have a planned development. Isn’t that what we are familiar with, Bob? And so there is a way and I’d be happy to share that if you are in the process of writing your ordinance right now. Now would be the time to look at that.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, very good. I’d be glad to do that.

Joe Bumbleburg stated, it works that way and that takes care of where you’re headed and does that protection.

Charles Mellon stated, I know it wasn’t coded in our old ordinance.

Joe Bumbleburg stated, well and the old ordinance is the concept of planned development was a kind of a strange thing that came about kind of like top seed, it just grew. And even in our, our second revision of our ordinance down there finally made the planned development something that everybody finally understood. Saw Mill Run in Tippecanoe County in the south part of Lafayette was our first planned development and title people and the engineers will all, surveyors will tell you but I’ll tell you, it’s a disaster. And we made a lot of changes just like you were talking about to make sure that doesn’t happen again.

Attorney Altman asked, Diann did you check the density?

Director Weaver stated, an R-3 with sewer and water requires seven thousand square foot per unit, an R-2 is five thousand square feet per unit for two families for single family it’s six thousand square feet per unit.

Attorney Altman asked, how will they get water here?

Mike Scheurich stated, it will be a private well, it will be well water. It will have to be dictated by the state because it will be public drinking water.

Attorney Altman asked, so there would be…

President Charles Anderson asked, so it would be a common well then?

Mike Scheurich stated, yes.

Attorney Altman asked, served with private utilities set up and the water would come that way and the sewer will take care of the other? Right, okay.

President Charles Anderson asked, any of the other commissioners have any other questions about that?

Don Ward asked, I was just wondering since you own all of the horseshoe there, how about widening out that easement some from whatever it is, twenty feet?

Mike Scheurich stated, I don’t know. I don’t suppose you have a…

Don Ward stated, if you get out the forty feet the county will take over the maintenance and of that horseshoe road. What ever it is Pony Lane or whatever and maintain it and plow the snow and…

Mike Scheurich stated, only if that whole horseshoe were to be widened.

Don Ward stated, right.

Mike Scheurich stated, and I think that when doing that then as far as the in and out to the development you know would be widened. As far as where it goes on the rest of the way I don’t know that that would be something that I would absorb the cost on.

Jay Clawson asked, that you would be willing to listen to take it out to West Shafer Drive to expand that part of it for your ingress and egress?

Mike Scheurich stated, it’s the only right way to do it.

Jay Clawson stated, okay, because we really do like a little bit wider. More for a safety thing when we have this high density it’s just…

Mike Scheurich stated, I think that there needs to be the ability to turn a truck into it and what if you have somebody move in there that you’ve got to have the ability to get a vehicle into it.

Jay Clawson stated, with being around the beach. That is typically a real high-density area anyway with all of the resorts being, well you own the resort next to it and all the way up and down that road. I mean now is our time that we can do this higher density and make it more of a modern building than what was build forty years ago. You know, the scope of your project, I like. You know it’s your investment money and your risk that you are taking but if it can be done right I mean I myself like. There’s more baby boomers gonna be retiring wanting to buy properties like this and if it’s nicely done then.

Mike Scheurich stated. I think that there’s I believe that there is a need and or ability to sell them and I don’t think I would go this far if not. But there is a lot of unanswered questions. We have this. We have a, what I understand is a primary approval and then that’s when all of the nitty gritty and all of the money starts to flow to make, to answer all of these questions and to put everything exact. And some, I think that there is still some things that are unanswered and but the…

Jay Clawson stated, but that is what our secondary approval is always for. Right now, at your primary to see if we feel that is a needed structure. And it kind of fits in with the area that it’s in and that’s what we are here for now and then you spend the real money, like you said for secondary to make sure that all of the requirements that we ask are covered.

Mike Scheurich asked, but primary is another step after this?

Jay Clawson stated, no primary is this and then you have secondary as your final.

Charles Mellon stated, if some grandparents buy some of your units and raise their grandchildren and they got, did up the schools that way. That might be a good idea of making that road wide enough, like he said so school buses could get around it. In and out of there in the future. Now you may not think of that but if you build them too narrow and then that comes up, you’re gonna have to take more area and widen it out for the county to take over.

Mike Scheurich stated, I think at this point in time that you know I if somebody wants to make the requirement for a road I have no issues with what ever somebody’s requirement is. And I think that that is, that’s truly a secondary issue in my mind then the structures them selves. So if there is something that somebody desires and wants. I don’t believe that to be an issue.

Jay Clawson asked, cause like with most or regular roads have a fifty-foot right-of-way isn’t it?

Don Ward stated, well it has to have a forty or the county can’t maintain it.

Jay Clawson stated, well forty or fifty, I don’t think in this we need a whole fifty but the thing is if you had a forty foot easement the twenty, whatever our road specs are, they’re talking about future maybe water district maybe along with the sewer district. And if you have a dedicated easement instead of them coming in later and trying to obtain easements when you are putting this road in. Not that it would, it would still be your property but it would be a dedicated easement for more utilities if they ever wanted to come. And then they wouldn’t have to negotiate with you to come in and bring you water back here. Since you are off of the road there a little bit.

President Charles Anderson stated, your roads as they are set right now can by traffic or two vehicles go by each other, it’s just that the easement.

Mike Scheurich stated, sure if you want to go off in the grass.

Jay Clawson stated, but that’s something that we need to see in secondary.

Don Ward stated, the lane that’s shown there goes over to your property line on the south. Is that a dedicated easement right now?

Mike Scheurich stated, I don’t know.

Don Ward stated, is that why you say you don’t really know.

Jay Clawson stated, it was in 1920 when they split that.

Attorney Altman stated, the way that it is drawn up, I suspect it is.

Bob Gross stated, the… from the Lake Side Heights Reality and Development Company going on May 1924, there shows…

Mike Scheurich stated, yeah that’s right here which is Bob you were ten, ten feet, twelve feet on what this width is right here and then this is the road…

Don Ward asked, this is stoned right?

Mike Scheurich stated, no.

Don Ward stated, something is stoned back there.

Mike Scheurich stated, there is a stone lane back through here.

Don Ward asked, oh through there? Cause I walked back there.

Mike Scheurich stated, it would be like a walkway.

Don ward stated, yeah.

Mike Scheurich stated, yeah, this is still grown up and stuff.

Don Ward stated, yeah. Now this shows a thirty five-foot…

Mike Scheurich stated, no fifteen-foot walk.

Don Ward stated, oh a fifteen-foot walk and I thought that was just walking access.

Mike Scheurich stated, that’s what that shows and that’s what this shows. And it shows a thirty five-foot street and there is no thirty five-foot street there.

President Charles Anderson asked, is that an easement that they had or not your development but the lot that you are on, is that an easement for that?

Mike Scheurich stated, yeah, I’m not sure. I don’t know.

Jay Clawson asked, would that be when they first split that off in 1924?

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah there is a lot of those. I think there’s easements like that down to the water’s edge. Maybe on two peoples properties down to the water’s edge where they were designed that way.

Mike Scheurich stated, so which is this.

Don Ward asked, actually what is the dimension on this? Is that…?

Mike Scheurich stated, there isn’t. These are just from the geography.

Don Ward stated, no I mean the width of those. Is that supposed to be fifteen feet?

Mike Scheurich stated, it shows eleven here, this shows twenty.

Don Ward stated, twenty. So it doesn’t match the fifteen-foot walkway. Oh yeah here it is I see it here now.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there any other questions?

Don Ward stated, I think that twenty feet ought to be widened too. Cause they are coming off of Pony Lane and they need plenty of room to get down there in case there is a fire down in that area. I don’t think that walkway amounts to anything as far as a worry.

President Charles Anderson stated, you don’t think it would be if somebody else has that written up on some title or something they got and they want to shut you down. They might be able to shut you down because they have old easements through there.

Don Ward stated, that would have to be checked out maybe but…You didn’t find anything did you Bob?

Bob Gross stated, no we didn’t.

President Charles Anderson stated, a lot of those that person, the people that had that it might be written up in somebody’s abstract some where. But the people that previously put that in are probably gone by now anyway. A lot of times they would have those easements through there for access down to the river’s edge or to the lakes is what they were for.

Attorney Altman stated, so the modifications are basically that they would expand Pony Road, Lane I’m sorry. Is it road or lane?

Director Weaver stated, lane.

Attorney Altman stated, okay and also expand the road or easement going down to units 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 I guess actually also. To conform with the requirements road growth requirements of the ordinance. And I think that’s it other than the facts set out about the sewer and the private water, utility. I think that is basically what we’ve heard and talked about tonight.

Jay Clawson stated, and if you find out that there is some sort of residential sprinkling requirement from the state. If you could just put that in your plans if that’s gonna be that way…

Don Ward stated, the administrative building council will take care of that.

Jay Clawson stated, right well if it has, good but if not we’re not going to make you go above what the state asks. But when you come back if that’s in your notes that yeah that is part of the thing that…

President Charles Anderson asked, those walls around that will be what two-hour walls or something like that too?

Mike Scheurich stated, what ever the requirement is and I know that they are thick and there’s an air space and sheet layers of sheet rock and draft stop all through the thing so.

Charles Mellon asked, is that in sewer project number two, or number three?

Mike Scheurich stated, number two.

Charles Mellon stated, yeah and that’s pretty well along now, number two is.

Jay Clawson asked, Jerry, did you see anything that we actually should get on?

Attorney Altman stated, no I think that the sewer, the water setup, the roads to access there are the major things. Obviously you have to compare this to the R zonings that we have and to see that it is appropriate or not that’s basically where you are coming down to your vote.

Don Ward stated, I think, that you ought to have your road, Pony Lane there, where it’s adjacent to the six to ten area ought to be a wider street. And at least in that area be moved back to the west so that you have more room between the edge of the pavement and the condos. So that there is parking area in there without the back of their cars sticking out into the road or close to it.

Attorney Altman stated, cause they are gonna do it.

Don Ward stated, in that area at least.

Mike Scheurich asked, and you’re talking about at least right in here?

Don Ward stated, something there and on the other way, where your hand is. Where your right hand is, right there.

Mike Scheurich stated, that is. This would be. This would be probably the widest spot right here.

Several people said, this here.

Mike Scheurich stated, I, okay.

Don Ward stated, yeah right through there where the road’s over pushed away west. The travel pavement is where they have a little more room where their driveway is. Because they are going to have visitors and some place to park their car and their boat trailer. And you want to keep it back because that will start to pick up a lot of traffic.

Jay Clawson asked, is there a dimension on that? Looks like there is. Is that forty feet? Is that what that would be from the garage?

Mike Scheurich asked, where?

Jay Clawson stated, right there where your finger was.

Mike Scheurich stated, twenty.

Don Ward stated, that’s like twenty. That’s like just about what a car is, isn’t it?

Jay Clawson stated, yeah you definitely want to have it deep enough that when it, if somebody is there visiting that they have like a say a big van or something that it won’t be sticking out into the road. I mean that’s the bare minimum that we would like to see.

Mike Scheurich stated, and I think that what determines that is probably the grade on the front of this building. As far as where it is set at.

Don Ward stated, I didn’t walk over to the lake when I was out there. What is the difference in elevation, approximately?

Mike Scheurich stated, alot.

Don Ward asked, the ground and the lake is quite a bit?

Attorney Altman stated, twenty-eight feet is what it says.

Mike Scheurich stated, I’m gonna say about thirty feet.

Don Ward stated, it is quite a bit. I was thinking more like six or eight.

President Charles Anderson stated, as far as vegetation on the side of that hill. Have you got any idea what you’re going to use to try to hold that hill afterwards and what is it going to be something that stays low and doesn’t have to be mowed or?

Mike Scheurich stated, obviously maintenance would be something that that you wouldn’t want to try to do on that. And I think it’s gonna end a little on how the on this elevation that there … there has to be something there green to hold it but I think more important that you have got to have structure there that is going to hold yourself and that bank. So I mean that’s where the engineering for your walls and how you’re holding that building because I think that by the time that that goes in if you’ve really shrunk. How much dirt is really left there to work with from the front of the building down to your, down to your sea wall.

Don Ward stated, yeah because if theirs is that much difference in elevation you’re close out there in front.

President Charles Anderson stated, it’s called view. You have a better view that way.

Attorney Altman asked, do you have any drainage, county drainage coming through that area at all?

Mike Scheurich stated, that’s what Bob would design. There is nothing to my knowledge other than this ravine that runs down in between those two units where that road will be.

Attorney Altman stated, certainly you are gonna need drainage board approval for that.

Mike Scheurich stated, yes that’s correct. And we talked to Mr. Sterrett about that.

Dave Scott, Mike all of the lawn maintenance, trees, all that…

Jay Clawson stated, snow…

Dave Scott asked, you take care of all that?

Mike Scheurich stated, there will be a homeowners association established.

President Charles Anderson stated, because the way it is now there is no way you could mow something like that.

Mike Scheurich stated, well there is places that…

Several people said, on the topside.

Jay Clawson stated, in the common areas.

Don Ward stated, well this drawing here doesn’t is not… the building is probably fine but there are perspective as far as where the buildings foundations are in reference to the lake is probably about half of what it really is. Isn’t it? It’s really up about where the second story is. Cause you have got about ten feet there.

Mike Scheurich stated, it’s showing…at least the only place that you see on this end, is it shows that there is a full story in the ground. And that would

Don Ward stated, I see you’ve cut it down to twenty.

Mike Scheurich stated, right.

Don Ward stated, okay I got it.

President Charles Anderson stated, eighteen or twenty feet. It’ would be what eighteen feet then for the bottom of these two?

Mike Scheurich stated, somewhere there about, I would say that it would you are going to probably average about fifteen feet.

President Charles Anderson stated, fifteen feet. So how wide were you thinking on this road coming through?

Don Ward asked, me?

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah.

Don Ward stated, well I think it ought to be a forty-foot right-of-way, is what I think, minimum. In order for the county to eventually take it over which, is what I think should be done so that they don’t have to worry about it in the future.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s what I wrote down.

President Charles Anderson stated, we already wrote that down as a forty-foot right-of-way but…

Don Ward asked, forty? Well that’s a minimum they are not allowed on anything less than that.

Mike Scheurich stated, I mean you just think of a garbage truck going back there.

Attorney Altman stated, it’s has to get around some way.

Don Ward stated, you need alot but you don’t need that much. You know a twenty-foot pavement but you need some on the edges for walkway, parking, utilities.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other questions? If not I’d say let’s go ahead and vote and we’ve got these restrictions we’ve got…

Attorney Altman stated, yeah I’ve got a pretty long list here.

President Charles Anderson asked, you want to read through them again?

Attorney Altman stated, yeah. Basically it’s on sewer that it 32,341 foot, square foot, it’s ¾ of an acre and that building structure would be 12,910. Is that right? Okay very good, I thought I wrote it down. That plenty of road would be expanded to forty foot to West Shafer and that the roads in this planned unit development are the touch it would be expanded to the forty-foot right-of-way. To allow for the parking, that sort of thing. That the water would be a private utility. That and that expansion would be in front of lots 1 through and including 10. That they need drainage board approval that it would be a full story in the ground and average fifteen-foot height above surface. Anything else that I’m missing?

Mike Scheurich asked, the fifteen-foot was up above water, right Charlie?

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah but that wasn’t, that shouldn’t be a requirement on there, you don’t know whether it was gonna be…

Attorney Altman stated, no he just said it was, I didn’t think that’s quite a requirement. I’m just writing down what he said.

President Charles Anderson stated, you’ve got have a little distance for the sleds to go down to the ice.

Attorney Altman stated, and obviously we’ve talked about holding the banks and green but that’s not here, on this. This is for the next stage.

President Charles Anderson stated, and remember we are going to probably see more and more of these all the time so we may need that, those piece of paper out of Lafayette to add to our new book.

Joe Bumbleburg stated, he knows how to find me. So does she.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the White County Commissioners for their action.


President Charles Anderson stated, next we have business. We have any business to discuss? We got…


Director Weaver stated, I do have some attorney fees that we need to review and approve. I had mailed Mr. Dellinger’s to you and I also, since I mailed it to you, I also received one for Mr. Bumbleburg for some research and we’re… what he did for the BZA. And I’ve given you a copy of that one tonight. It was with the information that I gave you tonight.


President Charles Anderson stated, okay. Do we have any motions on those?


Robert Thomas stated, well if they did the work and sent us a bill, I guess we owe them.


Director Weaver stated I believe with Bumbleburg that will be the last bill on that.


President Charles Anderson asked, do we have a second on that?


Don Ward stated, I’ll second that.


Director Weaver stated, and I thought we might want to discuss the lawsuit.


President Charles Anderson asked, yeah do you want to discuss the lawsuit, Jerry?


Attorney Altman stated, yeah this is another thing on Rangeline. This of course is the, it’s transfer station on one lot and what he has tried to do is to expand that. At least that’s what, to allow them to use the other lot…


President Charles Anderson stated, access the other lot…


Attorney Altman stated, yeah…


President Charles Anderson stated, or access to the transfer stations through the other lot.


Attorney Altman stated, through expanding on the other lot. And that’s there is a lawsuit been filed. The county, their appearance on that and so have I. We both asked for an obtained extension to responsibly plead. Don’t have a lot of comments about that. It really is just the same old thing yet and now it is up to the judge to decide whether our position is right or their position is right. And that is about basically what it comes down to now.


Dave Scott stated, we’re saying you can’t use that lot and they are saying they can.


Attorney Altman stated, and they say they can’t and quite frankly the way I look at it if you expand the way they are going to expand. The ordinance doesn’t mean anything. If you can use the adjoing lot to for an adjoing use without rezoning that lot everything you know, everything adjoins something. And all of these can be expanded then…


President Charles Anderson asked, have you and George got together about this? Cause there is two different…


Attorney Altman stated, yeah I have talked to George on that about this and…


President Charles Anderson asked, what are his feelings about this?


Attorney Altman stated, basically the same thing. Same thing. He had an appearance of course for White County and Raines and…


Director Weaver stated, those two.


Attorney Altman stated, yeah and that’s where they are on that. And like I say he asked for an extension. A thirty-day extension and so have I. And that is basically where we are right now. But I wanted to make sure that the board got copies of everything and knows what’s going on. That’s basically it. I don’t think that this will be one that will have alot of testimony or evidence that sort of way but maybe…I’ve been surprised on that before. That’s their case to present.


President Charles Anderson asked, so they petition anybody they want to for a case like this?


Attorney Altman stated, yes that’s right. Anybody have any questions about what is or what’s going on?


Director Weaver stated, well most of them just got their information tonight.


Attorney Altman stated, did they oh I’m sorry. Well then read it over and give me a buzz. Okay.


Jay Clawson asked, why didn’t he ever try that?


Attorney Altman stated, I think the real problem they have is they got state approval…


Jay Clawson stated, well he owns this whole property here why can’t he just pull in off that lot and pull into there.


Attorney Altman stated, I think the problem is they got IDEM approval on the plan that they are trying to defend…

Jay Clawson stated, have they, not just the building because if they could flip the building around then where they could just enter from another I-2. And then they wouldn’t be exiting ingress, egress off of Division Road.


Attorney Altman stated, I think that is the real problem…


Jay Clawson stated, I would spend my money trying to get IDEM to revise that to flip it around and then that would eliminate alot of stuff off of Hanawalt…


Attorney Altman stated, I honestly think I would too. And I’ve been surprised that they haven’t done that


Don Ward asked, well when did they buy that?


Jay Clawson stated, in the middle of all this stuff going around.


Robert Thomas stated, the IDEM was already approved when he bought it.


Jay Clawson stated, no he bought the old junkyard.


Director Weaver stated, now, see, last time I checked there had not been any change of ownership.


Jay Clawson stated, okay well.


Director Weaver stated, so I heard that…


President Charles Anderson asked, did he buy the junkyard?


Jay Clawson stated, well that’s what I…


Charles Mellon stated, yeah he did.


Attorney Altman stated, it is certainly for sale.


Jay Clawson stated, well I’ve been told.


Don Ward stated, well if he owns it then he’s got a whole different ball game.


Attorney Altman stated, I agree, and I agree with Jay rather than spinning wheels and I don’t mean that…


President Charles Anderson stated, now we’re gonna have, I wonder how many test boards are gonna be done on that baby.


Charles Mellon stated, it’s already been approved.


President Charles Anderson asked, has it?


Charles Mellon stated, yeah.


Jay Clawson stated, yeah…


Director Weaver stated, well he still has to go through a special exception to use that property for a waste facility.


Attorney Altman stated, he would have to but it would be alot, I think it would be alot easier to get approval if he were going that way.


Director Weaver stated, yeah because he is already zoned an I-2.


President Charles Anderson stated, his main thing is on this other lot. He is using it for drainage too along with the driveway. That’s…


Attorney Altman stated, see it’s drainage plus he is going on it, I mean…


Jay Clawson stated, then he could run his offices and his repair shop out of that one thing and get all of his heavy equipment on the other thing. Theirs is alot more room.


Attorney Altman stated, I agree Jay. But then neither you or I are deciding how that’s happening. But that’s what we are doing. Look it over if you have questions, call me. Anything else, Diann?


Director Weaver stated, I don’t have anything else.


Attorney Altman stated, all right.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission