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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, February 12, 2007, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Mike Smolek, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, Gerald Cartmell, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Mike Weaver, Jeni Weaver, Mike Annerino, Charles R. Vaughan, Greg Jacobs, Daryl Johns (SFLECC), Charles R. Mellon, Jeanette Rosenbarger, Ron Reagan, R. Joe Roach, Lindy Karberg, Suzy Karberg, Linda Diggs, Cheryl McIlrath, Sherry Cruelto, Joe Cruelto, Stuart D. Fillinger, Lisa Werline, John Wells, Mike ???, Jason Summers, Tobi Summers, Tom Schrader, Joan Wontor, Chris Schrader, Richard Goebel, Jay G. Smith, Gerald Fontanyi, Dale Winger, Kathy Winger, Ron Best, and Kevin Ward (White County Sheriff Department).

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Don Ward made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the December 11, 2006 and the January 8, 2007 meetings. Motion was seconded by David Rosenbarger and carried unanimously.


#923 Paul J. Spass and Michael Annerino; The property is located on 3.430 acres, Out NE Frax 28-28-3, in Liberty Township, located South of Buffalo and on the South side of Lake Road 76 E, at 5614 E. Lake Road 76 E. Tabled from January 8, 2006.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to L-1.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request?

Mike Annerino stated, Mike Annerino.

President Charles Anderson asked, does anyone have any questions about his request? Do the commissioners have any questions? Basically it is being zoned what it actually should be, lake property. Does it have lake frontage?

Director Weaver stated, yes it does have lake frontage.

President Charles Anderson asked, anyone in the audience have any questions? Tom Schrader stated, Tom Schrader. I would like to know what the request is for and what the party is doing?

President Charles Anderson stated, he is wanted to subdivide that property. Please come forward and explain what you want to do.

Mike Annerino stated, I would like too, we have a 3.5 acres parcel approximately. I would like to subdivide it and be 3 lake front lots and then one additional lot which nothing will be built on next to it that doesn’t have any lake frontage. That is it.

Chris Schrader stated, I’m Chris Schrader. How are you going to divide plot up?

President Charles Anderson stated, that is going to be done tonight too.

Chris Schrader stated, that is my question.

President Charles Anderson asked, someone on the board want to hand him a plat so he can look at it?

Director Weaver stated, Jerry it isn’t in there.

Mike Annerino stated, I would like to mention also that lot 1 that is the biggest parcel there is filled with trees and it is kind of a mess over there right now. We really don’t have any intention of doing with that. When I went to subdivide it Jim Milligan recommended it because it could potentially be a building site just subdivide it into that extra lot now. Our intention is not to do anything with it right now, we are going to clean it up and make it nice. It is run down.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the commissioners have any questions? Right now we are on the rezoning. Any other questions from the audience?

Chris Schrader stated, the only thing we have a concern is and we are the neighbors down there. Is that we just had the road paved and we paid some money for that and want to make sure that the residence that are there will be responsible for the up keep of that because the County maintains it as a gravel road and we paved it to improve it.

Mike Annerino stated, I have to put a county road in going in to the subdivisions. My will be built up to county specifications. That is a requirement of Area Plan so I will have a county road going in there just built like the road that goes back to the other houses in there. I don’t know exactly where you are at.

President Charles Anderson asked, is this the access road to this.

Mike Annerino stated, this is the main road that goes in to all of the houses back here on the lake front. Mind you, you have to turn into 500 or 600 feet before you would get to their houses.

Chris Schrader stated, can we, all we ask is that.

President Charles Anderson stated, that would be something you guys would legally have to set up yourselves.

Mike Annerino asked, what is the concern?

Chris Schrader stated, that maintenance will be shared and that someone else, we paid to improve the road and that.

Attorney Altman asked, what are you talking about?

Chris Schrader stated, Lake Road 76 East. There is 20 or 30 house along there.

President Charles Anderson asked, did all of you sign on to maintain that road?

Chris Schrader stated, we all voluntarily.

(He is showing them on a map where the maintained road started.)

Don Ward asked, from East Shafer Drive.

Chris Schrader stated, yes, the entire lake road.

Don Ward asked, so that is a private road all the way in?

Chris Schrader stated, it is maintained by the County and they won’t pave it because it is not 20’.

Don Ward stated, well you have to check to see if they claim it and it would be their road.

Tom Schrader stated, they don’t and for the last 25 years since I’ve been there we’ve maintained that. We’ve pitched in every year and put gravel down and last year we actually had it paved. So all we are asking as users of the road that these people would participate in the…

President Charles Anderson stated, that would have to be in the restricted covenants on the subdivision itself.

Mike Annerino stated, what I’m putting in will be up to the standards.

Tom Schrader stated, your road is fine, it’s this road that we all would share that is…

President Charles Anderson asked, does the county plow the snow on that road?

Tom Schrader stated, yes.

Mike Annerino asked, so you are concerned that these 3 houses would share the cost of maintaining that road coming into there?

Tom Schrader stated, right.

Mike Annerino stated, I don’t know how you guys would handle it.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think we can handle it.

David Rosenbarger stated, my question now is if that is not a county road does he have to have special permission to hook on to it. He is wanting to put a 50’ county maintained road in.

Mike Annerino stated, I talked to the county guy already about doing it and what my requirements were and how deep the stone had to be and how wide and there was no concern whether I touched, I mean there is a driveway there already. When you come up that road there is a driveway to get to the house to the existing house already. Because of adding additional they want the county road going in there. They didn’t have a concern about it at all.

David Rosenbarger stated, my questions is, I understand that 76 E is not a county road.

Tom Schrader stated, that is correct.

David Rosenbarger asked, who owns it?

Tom Schrader stated, we don’t know.

Mike Annerino asked, does the county plow it?

Tom Schrader stated, yes.

David Rosenbarger stated, if it is not a county road how does it get put in the plat?

Mike Annerino stated, the county must have something to do with it if the County plows it.

President Charles Anderson stated, it was probably adopted by the County.

Tom Schrader stated, I will give you a little history. Prior to Sue Flack purchasing this field from the owner that this gentleman bought this property from they didn’t use this road. They came down the next road south into this property. After he sold the property to Sue Flack then he started using this road to get to the property and he put the road in. That was part of the agreement. Sue Flack agreed to put a covert in I believe so he could get access to this road because prior to this covert he couldn’t get across the property to the road. It is a plastic covert that they put in.

Mike Annerino asked, can I ask a question? You have a set amount $50 a year you pay?

Tom Schrader stated, no we split the maintenance up between the 22 homes that are there.

Mike Annerino asked, does everyone pay?

Tom Schrader stated, everyone pays. It is nickel and dimes, but one of the concerns.

Mike Annerino stated, I don’t have a problem with it I was just wondering how.

President Charles Anderson stated, it would have to be on your restrictive covenants on your subdivision. We aren’t on the subdivision yet, we are still on the rezoning. Do any of the commissioners have any questions?

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 1 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.


#311 Paul J. Spass and Michael Annerino; Requesting primary approval of a 4 lot subdivision to be known as Annerino Subdivision, on 3.430 acres, Out NE Frax 28-28-3, in Liberty Township, located South of Buffalo and on the South side of Lake Road 76 E, at 5614 E. Lake Road 76 E.

President Charles Anderson stated, as far as Mr. Annerino putting a restrictive covenant on that, if everybody else doesn’t sign on that then there will be 3 people on that road. It would have to be a neighborhood agreement I would think.

Tom Schrader stated, I think that is something…

President Charles Anderson asked, something that you can work out on your own?

Chris Schrader stated, possibly. I think it would be something that would be really nice to have ahead of time, but…

President Charles Anderson stated, we can make it a commitment if everybody else would join him.

Chris Schrader stated, I think that would be very fair. It can be divided.

Mike Annerino stated, I don’t have a problem; there is probably a 75% chance that I’m going to be building down there myself. I’m not 100% positive yet. There is going to be some nice houses in there. Either way my partner is building down there. I mean we are going to maintain the road. Where we live now we all pay a certain amount of money and we maintain it and we take care of it. I don’t know legal what if you guys want to do something, if you want me to shake your hand and agree with you.

Chris Schrader stated, the only concern is that and maybe the whole group.

President Charles Anderson stated, it would be up to him to make the commitment that if everyone would join him on there.

Chris Schrader stated, that would be very.

Mike Annerino stated, my opinion is and with everyone I have dealt with if they have to pay a little bit of money to have a nice road to drive to their house on 99% of the people do not have a problem with it. Like you say everyone pays and it all works out. There is not going to be a problem here.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you want to add it to your subdivision? Agreeing to, if everybody agrees and forms a neighborhood agreement. Can we do something like that?

Attorney Altman stated, we are only on primary plat anyway.

President Charles Anderson stated, if he can’t get everyone to agree to it I don’t think he should be left with the whole thing either.

Mike Annerino stated, that is something legal that everyone would have to do.

Chris Schrader stated, I don’t think it is going to be a problem.

Mike Annerino stated, if it is 20 people or 3 people I don’t think it is going to be a problem. There is 75% chance that I’m going to be one of the people and my partner is one of the people and probably is going to be friend and it should be okay.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any questions?

Don Ward stated, this is based on whether the Commissioners approve the rezoning, right?

Director Weaver stated, yes it is.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other questions? Any one in the audience? This will be conditional on whether the rezoning is passed by the commissioners.

David Scott stated, the lot size here is this 60’ or 70’? Is that at the width of the lot or the setback lines?

Mike Annerino stated, that is the width of the lot. Not the lake side.

(He is showing them information on the plat.)

David Scott stated, the only comment I would like to make to him is I’m on the Board of Zoning Appeals if you take 18’ off of that that gives you 40’ wide is the widest house you can do with out a variance. I think our board is going to quite a lot of variance unless you can prove a hardship so I just wanted you to know.

David Rosenbarger stated, it is 49’ almost 50’ house.

David Scott stated, oh okay, just as long as you understand.

Attorney Altman stated, is this on the sewer system.

Mike Annerino stated, yes, I have to run a main line in. I’m going to sign a contract to run the sewer line, just waiting on approval. The road and the existing structure…

President Charles Anderson stated, that would be secondary anyway.

Director Weaver stated, yes, and he already does have a letter in the file from the Sewer District.

Mike Annerino stated, I’ve talked to the contractor already and we are good to go.

The Primary Approval for a 4 lot subdivision to be known as Annerino Subdivision was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.


#06-4 Gregory A. & Jerrielyn Jacobs; Requesting to amend primary approval granted on April 10, 2006 to allow a Planned Unit Development to be known as Windward consisting of 57 units on 4.39 acres, Part SE 28-26-3. The property is located South of Monticello, off of South Oakdale Road and at the end of Upper Hambridge Road on the White County-Carroll County line.

President Charles Anderson stated, I think there is a lot of confusion out here. What he is wanting to do is, he is not wanting to increase the density of the amount of units he has, but he is wanting to change the configuration and he is wanting to add on an underground boat storage area on this. He is wanting to change the size of the buildings, but not increase the density of the buildings on that. Do we have anybody here representing this request?

Greg Jacobs stated, yes Greg Jacobs.

President Charles Anderson stated, I think we have some people that are concerned about that. You have given us a few things of your concerns written to the Area Plan. They have been added to the record.

Director Weaver stated, the board members have copies of those.

President Charles Anderson stated, probably have the same concerns but only get bogged down with everyone speaking about the same things over and over again. If we get some of the representatives up and it meets what the problem you have with it and leave it at that and keep going over and over on the same thing. Do we have anyone here in the audience with any questions about that request?

Charles Vaughan stated, my name is Charlie Vaughan an attorney in Lafayette. My point here is this plan that he calls for that he slipped in is a 169 slip for boats. I want to point out that the ordinance that you are working on here is a P.U.D. ordinance which I’m sure you are all aware of, but what I’m really seeking is that we follow the ordinance instead of going at this thing willy-nilly without knowing where we are going. The ordinance does set up definite requirements. This is more than an amendment because the first thing it says for a deviation of an improved P.U.D. are preliminary is if it exceeds 10% of the previously approved dimensions providing such shifting that, that is the maximum you can do. Well changing from 4 to 7 exceeds I mean there isn’t any question what you have done there. So we’ve got more than an amendment, he is submitting a new preliminary approval because he has got more than 10% change. Be that as it may I want to get to the more meat of it if I may here. The ordinance provides and I will briefly point out here what I think is important and what I’m really seeking is that he comply with the ordinance. I’m not interested with a site plan where somebody it isn’t even a site plan, but a drawing just a piece of paper with a bunch of slips on it showing this is where the boats are going. That doesn’t mean any more than the paper it is written on. What the ordinance say if he wants to do something on like that, here is what all should be considered it is said the purpose of the P.U.D. is to permit flexibility and regulation in land development and encourage innovation land use and varied of design layout type of structures constructed. Well none of this is done. Not one of those requirement is meet we don’t have, we have a drawing, we don’t have any engineering, we don’t have a top level, we don’t have any thing except he wants to cut a hole in the side of a little inlet there and run under ground and just zigzag back and forth to where he gets 169 slips. I think this is rather obtrusive and doesn’t follow what the ordinance provides. If you will read under regulations and standards for improvement 5.20. This is what it must have as uses. The use proposed will have a beneficial affect and not adversely affect public health safety, welfare, convenience or the environment. Now let me ask you what you think this thing running in there underneath the building he is going to so called build is going to do to the environment. You are supposed to not have an adverse affect. What is an additional 169 boat going to do on the lake for the environment? How is this going to help anybody or anything unless you sell gasoline? I can’t think of anything else he can do create more accidents the health of safety of the people on the lake. I moved from Lake Shafer to get away from the congestion on the lake. I went down to Freeman because it is a quiet lake and I like it. We are going to be right back there the wave runner coming in and the weekenders going wild. I mean that is fine for the beach I love it that is great, but I live there. I think that this has an adverse affect and here is your ordinance. It says convenience, or the environment of any combination there of. Its present potential surround land uses. That mean surrounding, what is he going to do to the surrounding land. I think you will hear from some people here who are pretty up set about what it does to their surrounding land. Look at the dirt up there that this goes sky high and stops. Where was the site plan, where was the top of, where was the permit to do this. I think he is in deep trouble with IDEM over what he has done because he has just went ahead willy-nilly and moved dirt as he pleased. This does not comply with the ordinance. You must have a land scalping plan provided to ensure the purposes will be adequately buffered from one another and surrounding public and private property. This isn’t done he has got mounds high of dirt right up to these people’s property line. This has been going on for 5 years. There is another thing here. The preliminary phase materials to be submitted cause this is a resubmission because when you go to slip in a 169 slips for boats to clutter up the lake that is a major, major change. It says he must submit a statement of the developer’s objections and purposes to be served economic feasibility. Where is the economic requirement, he is required to have an economic phase ability study here. I don’t think, I mean I know there has not been one done. A study on the impact and public skills and utility. Where is the utility study? Where is the cost study on the utilities that this man is going to do? Where is the engineering drawing on the utilities? Where is the consensus from the sewage people and where it is to be and that is in the distance to the sewage and how that is going to be handled. The impact on the natural resources what do you think he did to the natural contours of that land without permission. It says in the estimated cost. I don’t have any cost to what this project is going to be. I don’t know if IDEM is ever going to let him go in there and create all of these canals and zigzag stuff and put cement over the top. How high is the cement going to be? How high is the roof? Where are the specs on this thing? Where is the foundation? What is he going to do when the ice freezes? Is the foundation going to move, then what is going to happen to the condominiums above it. These are things that are required by the ordinance. We don’t have any of this information and I’m just asking don’t do anything for him until he complies with the studies and engineering and topos and what the ordinance is asking for. Simply asking for what the law is in reference to a P.U.D. A P.U.D. is a very specific thing. You have to come back if you want to change anything. You really have to change it. I’m not apposed to whether he has 7 or 4. I’m just pointing out that it is more than 10%. What I am opposed to this project and slips it is totally unreasonable. Now I have some other things I will quickly, I think he has to comply with. Where is the internal arrangement of parking lots, curbs, locations providing such functional rearrangements are or even a plan of the parking lots and the traffic controls? There is no plans, there is no traffic plan, hasn’t been to any traffic engineer saying this is good, bad or indifferent. I mean there are so many things missing, it boggles my mind. The um, wait a minute, uh here it is. He is supposed to submit a site plan that has all of the contents of everything that he wants to do. All we have is a drawing. The drawing in there with some little squares where a guy got to a 169. That certainly isn’t what is planned. Where is the profile and the details of the roads? Where is it? Nobody knows. Where is the parking for all of these 169 people? Where is the parking, where is the off street parking, where is the guest parking? These are all things a traffic engineer should give his opinion for and provide for and let us know what it is going to be. Lets talk about the county road. The county road on 2 sides of this is a county road. Now are you going to have these 169 apartments. That is going to give you they say not all at once, but somewhere down the line there is going to be using these if the plan he is proposing goes through. That is going to put, they say that triple. Each condo will have a car travel on that road 5 times a day. It is going to be about 800, that is going to be 40 to 50 additional cars he will be bringing in. Where is his mind, he is supposed to build or pay for as a developer for half of that road. It goes in an L shape and that road is quite long and if you don’t get the money now. All of us in this room get to pay for the road for this developer. I frankly don’t want to. I think he is going to have the development I want to do and provide and is that a bond. Does he post a bond? It would be about $300,000 minimum I would say for that. He posts a bond for the $300,000 so we know we are going to get the road built and we are going to have the money. We don’t want him going belly up and have this thing built and have it there and then the tax payers have to pay for it. That is a $300,000 mistake we would make if we don’t make him post a bond. You will post a bond in Tippecanoe County I would guarantee it if you are a developer for half that road. They aren’t going to get stuck with that bill. I want to see that kind of responsibility. There is no mention of anything like that and there was, by this ordinance he was to give us a soil conservation service, soil information, subsoil, soil identification codes, soil names clearly marked on the plans. Where is that? You can’t even find what soil is on top. He’s got that stuff piled everywhere it has been so mixed up that nobody can tell where anything it is, except just keep looking at where it is now. Not where it was in the natural course. I’m not saying you can’t move some land, but this was a deplumation of the property. Where is the drainage report? He’s got all of this stuff stacked up high and you are going to tell me that there is a plan for this. It rains on it, it comes down, comes on the neighbor. There is no plan, this man just went in and did what he pleased. Another violation of your own ordinance. You are supposed to do an infrastructure report. That is an impact of the project of the public school systems. I don’t know if one kid or 100 kids are going to go to this school. I don’t know if those people are going to get in those condos and say hey we like it up here, we are going to live here. That has an impact on your schools. What are we doing about fire protection, police protection? Where is his report on this? Where is the feasibility study on what it will be and how much will be required? That is required, that is not here. As I said the proposed assess roads and potential highway improvements. We don’t know. He is trying to buy some house to get another entrance I hear. I don’t know. Geez we are suppose to know this, this is a P.U.D. this is a P.U.D. that means this baby is locked up. This is what it is going to be and you better comply. Then I want to get back and I don’t want to bore anybody here, but I’ve got one more thing. The environmental report he was supposed to give a detail on the impact of the proposed by the developer on the environment on both the site and surrounding area. I would really love to see that, I really want to see that and I think you do as an Area Plan Commission. You are perplexed, your job is to protect the county and try to do the best job you can with what comes before you for the benefit of the citizens that comes before you. Where is the biological impact on the floor and fauna? Shoot there isn’t any. It has all been turned up side down and filed away. We were to have a study on that and where is the physical environment impact such as noise, dust, site disturbances, and vibrations. 5 years, 5 years, this guy has torn everything up running those big machines day and night. He better be glad I’m not his neighbor because we would be in court so quick he would know what happened. He violated the ordinance. There it is, it says he was supposed to do a study on this and get your approval of what he did. No he didn’t do that, he just wanted to do what he pleased. I think I have talked enough. I would implore you to if I could I would ask I guess that he be required to follow your ordinance. That is all I want make him give us all of this information so we know where we are. We don’t want something half built out there, we don’t want to be financially responsible, we don’t want to try to clean up a mess that has been created. I want to know in advance that the project is good. With all of these studies and we will know if it is good. If he complies with your ordinance we will know whether this is a good project or not. I thank you. I’ve talked enough.

President Charles Anderson stated, just a second here.

Mike Weaver stated, Mike Weaver, 5911 Richey Park Lane. I’d like to explain my position on the Windward project. First of all I’m not against development and this is not a personal attack on Greg. I’ve met with Greg 3 or 4 times and he has always been very cordial. I would like to talk about high density and impact on the county and financial responsibility, neighborhood responsibility, construction process responsibility and my suggestion on how this development can be acceptable. I guess high density housing is something new for White county, I don’t think it can be found anywhere. Greg has made some comparisons to Bridgeview and his plans he has submitted. In his plans he has requested 169 units where Bridgeview only has 75 units. He has made some density comparisons 5 people per acres and Bridgeview 6 people per acre and Windward.

President Charles Anderson stated, you need to clarify that. It is 57 in White County and the other is in Carroll County. So you are county two counties in that which I still feel is high density myself anyway 57 units on 4 acres.

Mike Weaver stated, well I think the importance of this is the density of the White County water front. The development most all of it will take place on the water front in White County. If you look on the sheet one in the booklet I just handed out. I went to Google Earth and captured some pictures there. Google Earth has a measuring tool and I measured the shore lines and although it isn’t a survey information and it is not exact foot to foot, but I’m quite confident that it is probably within 5%. What I found was Windward has approximate 540’ of water front and we are wanting to build a 169 units that will share that water front. That breaks down to 3.2 units or 3.2’ of water front per unit. Bridgeview, I’ve got 75 units and 838’ of water front and that breaks down to 11.2, but my wife and I just recently talked to some sales people and we found out that at Bridgeview the 75 units are not all water front units. Only 35 units will have water front so that changes the number to 23.3’ of water front per unit as opposed to 3.2’ in the Windward. It is just a fine example of funneling I think it is something that everybody is trying to stay away from if you look on sheet 2 I’ve highlighted the White County property in red and I’ve highlighted the Carroll County property in yellow and the water front is in blue. These numbers I took right off of Greg’s plans 4.39 acres in White County and 21.41 in Carroll County. Only 17% of this project is in White County, but almost 100% of the water front is in White County. As far as a break down on the homes 57 in White county and a 112 in Carroll County that means only 33% of the tax base will come to White County, but yet White County is going to provide all of the water front. At the Carroll County Area Plan meeting on January 23rd, Greg made a comment about the south edge of his development will be for single family homes and he was requesting 70’ lots for those and compared them to the lots in the Hambridge Addition. If you look at sheet 3 and again I went to Google Earth and I used the measuring tool again and the Hambridge additions there are 2,678’ of water front. My wife and I drove around and we realized that we counted 38 homes that shared that water front. If you break that down that is 70.49’ of water front per family. This includes the homes inside the interior of that addition not just the water front. We took that one step farther with what this development is going the water front will be primarily in White County. So let’s do the same comparison to White County. Went back to Google Earth in Richey Park and I measured 2,346’ of water front there. I county 23 homes in that addition that is 102’ of water front per home in neighboring White county Richey Park. If you go to sheet 5, the Google Earth tool again. I’m showing how I measured 539’ of water front and again only about 450 of this is in White County and the remainder in Carroll. This breaks down to 169 units at 3.2’ of water front per unit. My concern about, my great concern about the high development is I’ve talked to one of my neighbors who is a builder it he Fishers area and he has a lot of experience in Guiest Reservoir. He was talking about the million dollar homes being built in Guiest Reservoir and they started building condos and once the condos development began people stopped building large homes. It made the lake so busy and a less desirable place to be. Consequently they haven’t sold all of the condos. There are a lot of vacant condos. I think a good example of this would be my wife and myself. We have property straight North of this development and we have already been before this board for a variance and we want to tear our cabin down and build a new home. I’m not sure I can do this today not with the development going on next door. Some of the points that Charlie hit on the financial responsibility. If you look at sheets 7 and 8 you can see pictures from the sail clubs that I took a week ago. He has had a huge impact on the County with the excavating. He has dug a hole that can be seen for a mile away on the lake as soon as you come around the corner of White Oaks there it is. He has created an eye soar. It made congestion on the lake with spectators. He has created a huge liability for this county with bluffs that are dangerous. I’m concerned that what if this project goes belly up and some of those bluffs are left there. The fence that surrounds the property is just a cheap construction fence that I think the county should seek out a bond or ask Mr. Jacobs to put money in escrow to make this property a safe place again should the project go belly up. I would also like to talk about neighborhood responsibility. If this development happens, what about lighting? The plans I looked at show a lot of lighting along the water. I don’t want my property lit up like a Walmart parking lot 24 hours a day 7 days a week. What about quiet hours? What time does everyone not be revving their boats up, not playing loud music, not being down at the water front dancing carrying on, shooting off fire works? In the Carroll county meeting on January 23 Greg mentioned a 24 unit resort. How are they going to know what the ordinances are? What the quiet hours are? Who is going to police this? What about the trash? Who is going to take care of the trash that blows off of the cover garage into the lake or over into my property? How is that going to be taken care of? How are we going to police the boat traffic in and out of the cove? Another concern is the people who buys a condo and uses the slips in the garage. What about silt clean out? This thing is going to be covered 5 or 6 years down the road. It becomes silted and you can no longer get boats in and out. How are you going to clean it out it is covered you can’t get any machinery in there. I guess most of all I want to know what Greg plans on doing to protect my property against trespassers, trash, 24 hour daylight, and I would like to ask the board before we go any farther, I like to request an 8’ privacy fence be put around this hole development right now, I don’t want to look at this anymore. We don’t want to have to hear it and we don’t want to have to be victims of the dust. I understand that condo living can be nice; I just want to make sure that people who live in condo’s share on amenities. I want to make sure they share those amenities that are on their own property not mine. I’d like to talk about the construction process. Greg has mentioned in his plans that this will have very little impact on the neighbors. I’m here to tell you that is very far from the truth. We listen to that equipment run 12 hours plus a day over 7 days a week, holidays. It just never stops. He has at his plan that this development will take place for 10 to 15 years. I can’t put up with this for 10 or 15 years. That is crazy to even request that. I’d like to ask this board right now to regulate and put in some work hours. Make it a 8 to 5 operations. No Saturdays no Sundays, definitely no holidays. Give the people who live in that area some peace and quiet. My suggestion is let Mr. Jacobs development but I’d like to restrict him to just 5 lots on the water front to be comparable to neighboring Richey Park. He has 500’ of water front and every home in Richey Park has an average of 100’ to 200’ water front. Let’s do the same. 5 lots over there that have a 100’ of water front. I think at a bare minimum the smallest lot in Richey Park is 50’ wide. Water front should be no more than 50’ wide, or in other words 10 slips. I think to allow 57 slip marina or the 57 units he already has primary approval on is just crazy. I think that 169 units marina in this area is absolutely totally ridiculous. If you let Windward start this project, this development can happen everywhere around the lake. I think we are just opening a can of worms here. I’d like to see Greg to request the 5 slips in front of SFLECC just like everyone else has to do. If the 5 lots are not sufficient, there are a lot of subdivisions around the like that have a lottery system. They have 50 homes in the development and only have 5 boat slips and the draw each year to see who uses those 5 boat slips and everybody else’s a boat launch, or has a boat launch in place. I talked about high density, funding impact on the county, financial responsibility, neighborhood responsibility, construction process responsibility, and enclosing I look around the lake and see a lot of cottages being torn down and nice homes being built. I think it is important to continue the trend of nice homes being built rather than less expensive condos. We all know that nicer homes tend to be more full time residence and provide a more economic stability to the community rather than a temporary home that will only use the lake and leave their trash. I’m not against the building, but I’m against the over development and the damaging affect it will have on the lake and the affect it can have on the county. I’d like to please ask everybody before you vote to take a look at pictures 9 through 15. These were all taken from my deck and ask yourself if you would like to live next to this development.

President Charles Anderson stated, right now I would like to ask Mr. Jacobs to come back up here and let him respond to some of this. First of all I want to read something that he told us on April 10, 2006. I’m Greg Jacobs this is for some of you that may have been on the board for 3 years or better, some of you may go back to May of 1996. Hopefully with our blessing this will be the last time this parcel of land is brought before you. I would like to know where you are going. I’d like to know what you plan on doing with this property. I’d like to know how you are going to pay for an underground boat storage with 169 units. How are you going to support the buildings on top of that with this new proposal and I think you have gone beyond the 10%, but just moving the buildings let alone trying to build this underground storage unit.

Greg Jacobs stated, I’m not sure about the 10%, it is obvious it is more than the 10% and that was the reason that I came back in other business last month and discussed the change that was primarily driven by buildings that were originally approved after marketing.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah but it was approved on solid ground to not being built over a vault.

Greg Jacobs stated, I don’t remember discussing foundations at the time and I’m not sure as far as the legality and what the ordinance states about whether it is a garage for a vehicle or a garage for a car. That is why I came back to Diann and discussed with her what I wanted to do and the fact is I believe the setback and the design. It is the design up here on the right is not, those are the ones that set back in the Carroll County side. I think it is a plus that they are set back in an L shape configuration. The approval before was for 6 homes and 4 buildings 10 structures in all. I realize that the single family homes are smaller. I believe the amended request is provides for depth and sets it back away from the one neighbor who is concerned Mike. It is far less obtrusive I would say than the buildings that were originally designed that are on the left.

President Charles Anderson asked, how do you propose to vent 160 boats?

Greg Jacobs stated, vent?

President Charles Anderson stated, to vent the gases and the things.

Greg Jacobs stated, well you know there is parking garages…

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah but parking garages are usually open, they are open and have air vents.

Greg Jacobs stated, you see a, you see on the design there I tried to give you some.

President Charles Anderson stated, you are going to make it water proof at the top, you would have to vent it at the top too.

Greg Jacobs stated, you see that there is live wells in the top and the final engineering isn’t completed and the conceptual is for preliminary for the preliminary process and the…

President Charles Anderson asked, when is the final ever going to be done?

Greg Jacobs stated, soon I hope. You asked about the ventilation. The whole front is open, no different than a parking garage structure. There are codes that have to be meet that an engineer will have to follow too. Make sure it meets codes.

President Charles Anderson asked, how do you determine freezing and thawing inside a building like that? Are you going to heat that area?

Greg Jacobs stated, no, I’m not an engineer, but we’ve consulted with an engineer and an architect company quite extensively on this and there is a certain depth that the foundations have to be at regardless of whether there is water or I don’t profess to be an expert on it, but I’ve been assured regardless of whether water or dirt that foundations can be put in. We’ve had Patriot Engineering do extensive geotechnical borings and reports to certify the soils. The soil certifications are 5,000 psf which is standard housing in the 2 to 2500’ range. So we have some really good substructure if you will to put foundations on.

President Charles Anderson stated, once this is all built then the people are going to live there, to be able to maintain that you’ve got to sell everything out of that to be able to have payments in that would be able to maintain the property.

Greg Jacobs stated, well there will be a phasing plan that would be.

President Charles Anderson asked, how can you phase that boat dock in? The underground sewage for the boats, how can that be phased in?

Greg Jacobs stated, well depending on which way you go if you go with the larger buildings then you do two buildings up front and then you do the two behind the building on the new design with the smaller buildings you would do the L the two in Carroll County and come back around in the White County side and then you can work you way back out. You do the retaining wall first and the marina is phaseable.

President Charles Anderson stated, the marina though, the whole design of the marina was to skirt the SFLECC to me so they don’t have any say in it all anymore.

Greg Jacobs stated, that is not true, I have went to the SFLECC in July and meet with Joe Roach and told him what I was wanting to do. Just conceptually in conversation and I was advised that the first thing I should do is go and contact the Army Corp of Engineers. I contacted the Army Corp of Engineers and meet with Debra Snider with the Army Corp of Engineers and Marty Malphine on site and I verbalized to Debra what I wanted to do and what would be required of her and she instructed to me that it would be exempt from a 401 permit from her office as long as we meet certain criteria and basically it was only one that was if the debris was immediately moved up stream as she put it. I followed up with her on two separate occasions by phone just to reiterate that conversation and…

President Charles Anderson stated, any debris that comes into the storage area has to be released up stream,

Greg Jacobs stated, well when the, well 99% of all excavation would be done without any water and when you open up the part that is on, it is not on SFLECC property and it is not, again we are not trying to skirt the requirements with SFLECC that is why I contacted them. So what little when that is opened up or dredge open if you will. As long as that is immediately removed and not put in the water, just as long as it is cleaned out.

President Charles Anderson stated, clean out.

Greg Jacobs stated, it is exempt from her 401 permit. I did that, I understand now that it is fairly controversial I suppose and maybe political incorrect from the SFLECC stand point, I believe there maybe one month in 7 that I haven’t been there. The fact of the matter is the request that I’ve got before them regardless I’m allowed to do. What I’m trying to do is as Mr. Vaughan put it so elegantly at the SFLECC meeting today a little Honeoye, which I’m very well aware of what gain slips can look like. There are some that look like little Honeoye, but the, what we are doing was preserving shoreline and we have the right to go out there based on the SFLECC policy to what I would say litter the shorefront with 45 or so slips and do what Bridgeview is doing and I will use them as example. There 40 sum slips end to end and that is not bad. They are doing what they have to do. So we can do that, we are not asking them for a permit to do that. We are asking for a permit to.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you have an estimate of an over all cost of what this whole project is going to cost?

Greg Jacobs stated, well we are working on the marina. We have a preliminary cost that they are less and they will come in very close to what it is costing to put a slip in on the water with a covered slip in, obviously you can’t go in and do 50 and only sell 2 then the cost of average is not what you project, but the costs are very close to what a slip cost to higher one of the 3 or 4 contractors to come and do and put it in there.

President Charles Anderson asked, but do you have an overall cost of the whole project? What is it going to cost to finish this project all 3 or 4 phases that you’ve got, plus the slips?

Greg Jacobs stated, well if you look at all phases of infrastructure and not talking about buildings, just talking infrastructures.

President Charles Anderson stated, I mean buildings and everything. I’d like to know exactly what kind of cost that you are going to have into this.

Greg Jacobs stated, well the buildings will be roughly a million dollar a piece. We aren’t going to go out there and build 10 buildings at one time. We are going to go into a sales mode.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you have any idea of the total cost of the whole project?

Greg Jacobs stated, the infrastructure cost is somewhere in the $8 million range. Then the buildings are depending on the building…

President Charles Anderson stated, the roads and the green spaces and everything else what are you figuring on that.

Greg Jacobs stated, the infrastructure somewhere in the $8 million range.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t know if you can build it.

Greg Jacobs stated, pardon me.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think you can build the boat storage area for $8 million. I don’t know. The footings for the structures that are going to be built on top of that.

Greg Jacobs stated, the average cost to build a parking garage has increased from $8,000 to $10,000 on the low side and the municipalities of the Purdue’s of the world are spending somewhere between $13,000 to $14,000 for that. That is including the parking roof concrete roof structure.

President Charles Anderson asked, does it have that per floor or is that.

Greg Jacobs stated, we are not putting a floor in, so we have a water floor.

President Charles Anderson stated, no I mean per floor.

Greg Jacobs stated, no that is per stall and that includes the two way traffic that goes around, so let’s use the high side, lets just say it is $15,000. That is on the high side and that is municipality. We consulted with a construction management firm before we started this and got some preliminary numbers. That is how we started. We based it on what it would cost to do a parking garage. Obviously if you are trying to do 30 instead of a 100 your cost, you economy of scale is lost, but we have done a substantial amount of homework on it. You can’t see unless you have preliminary approval. Now we can go with less, we can build; we can do the 4 buildings.

President Charles Anderson asked, what are you doing right now, what is all of the dirt moving? Other than these 57 units that you originally got preliminary on, do you have permits for anything to be built in Carroll County right now?

Greg Jacobs stated, no and we aren’t building anything at this point.

President Charles Anderson stated, but you are working the ground over there.

Greg Jacobs stated, right and we know that we have to come back and provide financial responsibility through the form of a bond. I’m still not sure it was brought up at the Carroll County meeting about the bond for the county road. No body has ever brought that up at either meeting as far as a county official goes. So I’m not sure about and I have meet extensively with the Carroll County highway department supervisor, so I’m not aware of any requirement to as Mr. Vaughan suggested a $300,000 bond for the existing roads infrastructure. I do know we have to submit a bond before we can get a building permit that covers our before we can get a secondary approval. The dirt unfortunately for it to be even close to being feasible we basically taking the dirt from the White County side and moving it on to the Carroll County side and taking what was non-view acreage and distributing the dirt and creating one large pond and home site that have lake view.

President Charles Anderson asked, how long is that mound of dirt going to set on the Carroll County side?

Greg Jacobs stated, I guess it depends on how long it takes to get approval.

President Charles Anderson asked, on the White County side are you going to build the 57 units at once or are you going to phase those in over a period of years to?

Greg Jacobs stated, no, the plan is to do 4 first. The feasibility study that we had done last year, we hired a copy from Colorado a nationally know company to do a feasibility study THK and Associates. Their feasibility says that we concentrate on the White County side and said the absorption should be 3 years for 81 units. That was assuming starting construction in 2007 and bring in a product. Obviously economic factors play a part in it. These are largely second home dwellings. I would say that 75 plus percent will be, which is the nature of both lakes, so consequently the concerns for pressure on the school systems should just be the opposite. It will generate tax dollars averaging easily in the 225 and up range. They should generate some nice tax dollars for the county. As far as White County is concerned really there aren’t any services required.

President Charles Anderson stated, I’m not too worried about the schools or anything. I’m just worried whether this project can ever get done or whether it ever will get done, how long it will take.

Greg Jacobs stated, yeah.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the commissioners have any questions?

Mike Smolek asked, where are the boat slips going to go? Can you show me here?

Greg is showing Mike on the maps where the boat slips are going.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any of the commissioners have any other questions? Everything from the Audience is going to come down to the same thing over and over again. I don’t think as far as what was passed before we had that, we can’t deal with that tonight anyway, but for what you are asking for tonight, I don’t think unless you can bring before us actually what the ordinance says under the preliminary phase appears to be submitted. I think we need all of that before we can even look at this new proposal. We can table this and have you bring it before us later on.

Greg Jacobs stated, okay.

President Charles Anderson asked, do any commissioners have any help with that?

Don Ward stated, I feel that same way you do this is too big of a change from what it was. I think we need to go back for a preliminary approval.

Greg Jacobs stated, is the change the fact that the boat slips, or the change the building configurations.

President Charles Anderson stated, I’d like to know exactly step by step what you plan on doing to complete phase 1, 2, 3 and 4 at some point. Especially our phase, I’d like to get a dead line, a cost and how you propose to be able to finish this project. Whether we need to get bonds.

Greg Jacobs stated, the secondary requires that I post a bond, so again is the concern, I’m not asking for increase in density.

President Charles Anderson stated, I know that, I don’t like the boat storage underneath those buildings. You know you are putting; you are going to have to go deep to support just the structures, let alone the buildings on top of the structure. With freezing and thawing there are probably sprigs in the side of those hills and I don’t know how you would be able to hold that or how long you would be able to hold that.

Greg Jacobs stated, pier constructions and I’m not an architect or engineer, but pier construction all though it might be new here. It has been done for years.

President Charles Anderson stated, we don’t watch the history channel.

Greg Jacobs stated, I didn’t get this idea from the history channel, but it is done everyday on the coast.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess what we are seeing is the ordinance has certain requirements that you are suppose to bring us in the way of studies and reports and we don’t have them here. That is what we need to have before we can make a decision.

Greg Jacobs stated, I understand, I’m just trying to pen down the specific as far as the design goes because I sense that is part of the concern.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think the concern whether you can do that and to have that concentration of boat slips in there I think it is too many for one thing. If you are going to have 2 slips per unit like you said you might want, then there is going to be smaller jet skis there and everything coming in and out of that building, the amount of gas in that building whether… Are you going to have alarms in there is there is to much carbon monoxide and things like that it he storage area.

Greg Jacobs stated, it would have to be engineered, it is no different than parking garage.

President Charles Anderson stated, I would just assume there be a parking garage there than a boat storage there.

Greg Jacobs stated, so you are talking about engineering things and code issues that have to be met to get approval from the State and there is.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t like the boat slip idea at all. Do any of the commissioners have anything they want to say about the boat slip, part of it being built underground?

Don Ward stated, you can do it. It is not out of question on not being able to do it.

President Charles Anderson stated, it is not a violation of the code, but I don’t know.

Greg Jacobs stated, you mentioned that it is a garage so I just need to, I guess…..

President Charles Anderson stated, you’ve got one area that has a problem, but how about cleaning silt out of there?

Greg Jacobs stated, well.

President Charles Anderson asked, are you going to be able to get to the whole thing to clean the silt.

Don Ward stated, yes.

Greg Jacobs stated, we’ve got…

President Charles Anderson stated, but that is going to be laid back on the people…

Greg Jacobs stated, no like any condo association there is cost contributed. I will show you, we have pretty much thought this through. The engineering even though I didn’t know it was required for this. Is in the corner of the marina where the water comes down, we are actually providing for a silt trap coming from Richey Park. So we are catching it there. We’ve, although we haven’t sat back down with Denny and talked to him about before there was an exemption provided that we didn’t even have to bring it into this vote. We are proposing to bring the run off from the entire development into this area. Probably not smart because it is going to create a maintenance for the HOA as opposed into the bay where there is no boat traffic anyway. We are proposing to put it in on our side of it and yeah we’ve got a less than 12% grade that is 15’ wide that will support vehicle, small mini excavators, small bob cat that can actually come in to the end where the inlet for the storm is dumping into the inlet.

President Charles Anderson stated, lake fluctuation in that area, how much does it fluctuate in that boat area?

Greg Jacobs stated, it hasn’t fluctuated a 10th of an inch in 5 or 6 years. It is 12.5 it is 612.5 lake fluctuation and they have documents, they are govern they have to I don’t know what the guideline is off the top of my head, but by the law the lake level has got to be maintained.

President Charles Anderson asked, how far is that from the dam?

Greg Jacobs stated, probably 3,000’ I would guess.

President Charles Anderson asked, you don’t get much back grade from the dam area itself, but yet they still raise it. On the neighbor, I’m going to ask the neighbor, how much does the lake fluctuate on your dock.

Mike Weaver stated, maybe 10” or 12” after a major storm.

President Charles Anderson stated, after a major storm it isn’t into the feet area.

Greg Jacobs stated, well after a major storm maybe I don’t about that.

President Charles Anderson asked, yeah but would that bring boats in your boat storage area up over their?

Greg Jacobs stated, the clearance is like 14’ so it would be no different.

President Charles Anderson asked are you going to adjust the height of the docks to where the boats wouldn’t come up and land on the docks when it is flooded.

Greg Jacobs stated, it wouldn’t be any different than a dock outside.

President Charles Anderson stated, it wouldn’t be any different, but you’ve got to get in there. As long as the dock isn’t under water you’ve got people walking on the dock to manage their boats too.

Greg Jacobs stated, I don’t believe we’ve ever, up on the river part we may have seen that, up by Riverside, but I don’t believe Lake Freeman on the main body has ever seen.

President Charles Anderson stated, the little cover where the ditch comes in.

Greg Jacobs stated, I’ve seen it three within 12 or 16”. Then after it gets out into the bay, but so it is really not you know any different. The piers would be at the same height that they are put on the outside.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t agree with the underground storage of boats. Do any other commissioners have any questions about the storage part of that where they have difficulty?

Don Ward stated, my understanding was that you intend to filter the water.

Greg Jacobs stated, that is the intent.

Don Ward stated, to take care of that and keep it clean.

Attorney Altman asked, where are the specs?

Greg Jacobs stated, specs.

President Charles Anderson stated, he doesn’t have any of that.

Greg Jacobs stated, it isn’t required for a primary, unless you would put that on there.

President Charles Anderson stated, let’s see who has a problem with the boat storage, raise your hand. Who doesn’t have a problem with it?

Several are talking at once.

President Charles Anderson stated, you are going to have to have all of this information to bring this before us again.

Several are talking at once

Mike Smolek stated, I’m with Charlie and the ventilation is a big thing.

Don Ward stated, that is engineering and that is not something we have to worry about. This is primary. The final thing you’ve got to show it all.

Mike Smolek asked, how much does this deviate from the original proposal?

Don Ward stated, in my opinion quite a bit.

Mike Smolek stated, I’m the new person.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you would know about that.

Don Ward stated, well it just seems to be more than 10%.

Mike Smolek stated, I’m not saying it can’t be done.

Greg Jacobs stated, well it is 10% isn’t that what the ordinance says, if there is a deviation more than 10% then you have to come back and get your approval. Isn’t that right?

Don Ward stated, I think you have to come back for a new preliminary approval. Not to improve the old preliminary. You have to have a new preliminary approval. Which is what it looks like to me.

Greg Jacob stated, that is why I asked what procedure. Isn’t there a clause in there for an amendment?

President Charles Anderson stated, yes, if it was under the 10%. If the change was under 10%, your change is well over the 10%.

Greg Jacobs asked, so is there or is it against the approval, is it a violation of the ordinance if what is approved has boats underneath it.

President Charles Anderson stated, yes because you are changing the plans.

Greg Jacobs asked, how? If I don’t change the building configurations.

David Rosenbarger stated, because of the boat slips.

Greg Jacobs stated, I don’t think it is the slips, I can still put slips outside, I don’t think it is what is best.

Don Ward stated, once we give you preliminary approval then you can get the details. You are changing the beginning, you are changing the preliminary. I don’t think you can do. If we give you approval on this, I think you need to come back and asked for new preliminary approval. I think it is too big of a change for us to make. I’m only one person to make on this original set up. Once you get a preliminary approval then you can get some engineering done and some concrete stuff done. That is what we thought you were going to do on the preliminary approval is go back and get more engineering and start detailing things and start getting it down to nitty-gritty so we know what is going on. You are starting a whole different ball game in my opinion. You need to come back again for preliminary approval. What do you guys think?

President Charles Anderson stated, If he wants to change the plans to this, you’ve already got preliminary for doesn’t include the boat.

Don Ward stated, right the other one is out the window. If he comes back a preliminary approval on new stuff.

Greg Jacobs stated, so with the plans that has preliminary approval is against the ordinance. If that remains as it is other than garage below it that is a violation of the preliminary approval.

President Charles Anderson stated, I wouldn’t call that a garage, you are changing the whole plan.

Greg Jacobs stated, there is no footing requirements asked or even discussed about.

Don Ward stated, you don’t on preliminary, we don’t get into that. It is the over all scope on the preliminary approval that we look at and the scope have changed. The scope is different; the location of the buildings is different.

Greg Jacobs stated, I’m speaking about he old one.

Don Ward stated, the old one is different.

David Rosenbarger stated, the old one nothing was said about the underground boat storage.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think you would have gotten the old one passed with underground boat storage, but I wasn’t here either.

Greg Jacobs stated, what is it, you’ve made the statement that I’m skirting SFLECC.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t know how you are going to hold the lake back from where you are at. Engineering you probably can do it, but I just don’t like the idea of it. It is my own personal opinion.

Charlie Vaughan asked, Mr. Chairman can I call for the question, I think we have labored this to death. I want to call for the question; I think we have debated it until it is beat to death. Let’s have a vote.

President Charles Anderson stated, as far as this brought forward tonight is passed.

Ron Best stated, my name is Ron Best and Mr. Vaughan presented a case and the ordinance has been broken so many times that it isn’t funny. I don’t see how you can even consider passing it. He went through a long list and everyone here has heard it, you’ve heard it.

President Charles Anderson stated, what he is here for is a change in it. I don’t know. I don’t know how we can reverse what was brought before us.

Don Ward stated, a lot of the things that was brought up have to be brought up after the preliminary approval. You can’t do the engineering, you can’t do the process, you can’t do that stuff until you know the scope of what he is going to do. Once you’ve got the big plan then you start figuring.

Charlie Vaughan stated, if it pleases you, the preliminary phase materials to be submitted. The economic feasibility study, the impact on the utilities, circulation facility, impact on natural resources, impact on the general area and adjacent property. Estimated cost and plans showing and the economic value general time of schedule expected completion dates. These are all with the preliminary plat.

Don Ward stated, he has spent a lot of money to get that far.

Attorney Altman stated, it is required to do that.

Charles Vaughan stated, all I’m asking is he just complete or just comply with the ordinance or else.

Greg Jacob stated, for the amended request this was presented, I’m not sure about the economic feasibility. When we presented this preliminary this report was filed from the engineer and I assumed there was no question about it. Now granted there are some changes, I thought I approached you and asked what I needed to do and we thought that the first stop was I approach you under business and we put a formal request in and paid a fee to do an amendment, so evidently that was incorrect. The attempt was not to be here and waste your time tonight. Had I known that I would have been working on those things?

Mike Weaver stated, can I make another suggestion, can we considered some working hours. It is going to thaw out pretty soon and he will be back to digging dirt again. Can we establish some working hours.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think as a board we can legal set working hours for him. You can approach him or get….

??? asked, where are you as far as the Carroll County side stuff, have you gotten primary approval there?

President Charles Anderson stated, no. I’m going to go ahead and take a vote on this. I don’t think as far as amending the primary. I don’t think as far as take a vote on whether we should amend this. Raise your right hand or do we have a ballot.

The results of the vote for the amended application were as follows: 0 affirmative and 8 negative.


President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda is business and we have a fine on there and it is Fontanyi. Is there anyone here representing that request? This fine was for bringing a trailer on to the property and you have destroyed it, tore it apart?

Linda Fontanyi stated, correct. We got a permit to move it in White County.

President Charles Anderson stated, then you found out you weren’t suppose to do it because of the year of the trailer.

Linda Fontanyi stated, yes, we weren’t supposed to do it.

Director Weaver stated, the permit they got was a moving permit, a tax clearance that comes through the treasurer’s office. It causes a lot of confusion for people.

Linda Fontanyi stated, okay, but when I called the lady I asked her what we had to go through.

Director Weaver stated, I understand that, but I wanted to make the board understand.

Linda Fontanyi stated, and that is the only thing that she told us that we had to come in and make sure the taxes were paid.

President Charles Anderson asked, then we contacted you about it being out of compliance and is that when you tore it apart?

Linda Fontanyi stated, I contacted Diann.

President Charles Anderson stated, we had a meeting and your fine was to be heard and you weren’t there or you didn’t realize it or you didn’t get the notice when the meeting was to be at that point.

Linda Fontanyi stated, correct.

President Charles Anderson asked, did they get with you right away?

Director Weaver stated, yes they did.

President Charles Anderson asked, anything from the commissioners? Any idea what you want to do about this situation?

David Rosenbarger stated, I recommend that we suspend the fine.

President Charles Anderson asked, do I have a second on that? All in favor of suspending the fine raise your right hand. Fine is suspended.

Linda Fontanyi stated, okay thank you.

Mike Smolek asked, is there anyway we can change the wording on the Treasurer’s? I mean I have found 13 mobile homes in Cass Township and two of them had the permit to move it.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t even know what it says at the top of the page.

Mike Smolek stated, there is one in here.

Director Weaver stated, that might be a stated board.

Mike Smolek stated, it says mobile home permit for moving.

Director Weaver stated, yes it does say mobile home.

Mike Smolek stated, that is just a tax.

Director Weaver stated, that is a State form.

Attorney Altman stated, you aren’t going to get that form changed, what you might do is go to the Treasurer’s office.

David Rosenbarger stated, and give them a form to stick with it.

Director Weaver stated, we can do that I’m sure.

Don Ward stated, if you bring it to White County.


President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda is the Green’s. Are the Green’s here?

Director Weaver stated, they are not here. I didn’t ask them to come.

President Charles Anderson stated, all we did was ask them to block that road off.

Director Weaver stated, so a chain with a pad lock is sufficient. I thought so since there is no permit required for that I felt it should be on record that the board had no problem with that. That was acceptable. I was just trying to protect them I guess is what I was trying to do.


President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda minutes for rezoning.

Director Weaver stated, yes, Jerry and I have not been able to get together on that, that is for the variances. We need to get together.

Attorney Altman stated, that hasn’t been advertised yet.

Director Weaver stated, no, we haven’t gotten over them yet and we have found some other things. We do have one other item I would like to bring up and that is we had an appeal and I guess that is what they called it filed for Tippecanoe Country Club for their subdivision.

President Charles Anderson stated, subdivision because it didn’t meet their setback for their covenants. So it meet our setbacks, so I don’t think that would be, that wouldn’t have anything to do with us.

Don Ward asked, what happen?

President Charles Anderson stated, it doesn’t meet their setback for their restricted convents of their.

Don Ward stated, I thought it did.

Director Weaver stated, our front setback is more restrictive than theirs, but their rear setback is more restrictive than ours.

David Rosenbarger stated, there was enough room to meet their square footage.

Director Weaver stated, correct.

President Charles Anderson stated, it meet ours, but not their restricted convents. I don’t if that would be.

David Rosenbarger stated, that would be under theirs, if someone wanted to build there, they would be the ones to stop it.

President Charles Anderson stated, if they wanted to contest that, that would be a court matter, that wouldn’t be our matter.

Attorney Altman stated, that is what the appeal should be a court matter, rather than.

Director Weaver stated, my question to you what do we need to do with this letter if anything that we received.

President Charles Anderson stated, I would respond back to them that the board decided it was a court issue.

Attorney Altman stated, they have to go through a Citerior to appeal it.

Don Ward stated, they will have to enforce their own now.

Attorney Altman stated, they have to do it within 30 days. However if it is a private covenant type thing, they can do that now and they have the standing to do it.

Don Ward stated, if they cut back the building room on that, there won’t be any room to build on it, only thing but a tent.

Attorney Altman stated, I won’t argue with you, but still.

Director Weaver stated, will you prepare a letter to send to them.

Attorney Altman stated, yes I will.

David Rosenbarger stated, another thing. Diann called me on this matter when she first got it and she went and did some researching on it and stated that to file an appeal after a primary, but on that one we did it on both the same night. What do the girls in the office do when someone notifies them that they want to file a protest or what ever? What is their course of action, do they tell them where to go to research it or do they say. Because they were totally lost.

Attorney Altman stated, that is a good question. How much of a lawyer do you guys expect the ladies in the office to be.

David Rosenbarger stated, none what so ever. When someone comes in, that has been some of our complaints on our APC they can’t get any answers. So we’ve just given them a question that they don’t know the answer and I’m asking what do they tell them other then stand there and go like this. I mean does Diann send them to you.

Attorney Altman stated, that would be fine, or they should get a lawyer to advise them. In this case they should have got a lawyer to advise them.

David Rosenbarger stated, they are wanting to appeal a primary subdivision.

Attorney Altman stated, and the state statue is very clear that you had to do that within 30 days by filing what is called a Writ of Citerior with the Circuit Court.

President Charles Anderson stated, they have to file it through the Circuit Court.

David Rosenbarger stated, well if that is in our ordinance, state ordinance that they can file that thing then we should be able to give them some direction if it is nothing more then contact your lawyer. I’m asking for Diann and Paula in the office that is another one where they don’t have to stop and shrug their shoulders.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree.

David Scott stated, does their setback requirement, they use the most stringent on theirs and ours is it still a buildable lot?

Director Weaver stated, the thing is we don’t enforce theirs, we enforce ours we don’t enforce private, restricted covenants.

David Scott stated, some soul is going to get burned on a lot it sounds like to me.

President Charles Anderson stated, they aren’t going to get burned, they are going to get stoned.

David Scott stated, well they are going to be in BZA to get a setback variance and if we don’t give it to them. We probably won’t now, someone is going to get burnt buying a lot they can’t build on.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that is a problem, I agree because of the private restrictions.

David Rosenbarger asked, does that answer your questions.

Director Weaver stated, I guess I will just contact Jerry or contact an attorney.

President Charles Anderson stated, have them contact Jerry and he can tell them how to get an attorney.

David Rosenbarger stated, some of the complaints we get is because they don’t know the answers.

Jim Mann asked, what is the status of a new one of these?

Director Weaver stated, that is one of the things I need to update you on. The new ordinance it has been confirmed by John Heimlich that Cynthia Bowen is no longer with HNTB. He has a conference set up with HNTB and Cynthia Bowen for Thursday so we will no more after Thursday, but right now we really don’t know where we stand.

Attorney Altman stated, that is bad.

Jim Mann asked, so is there anyone with HNTB that can pick up the ball and carry through?

Director Weaver stated, at this point I do not know because I don’t know if they know where we stand.

Dennis Sterrett stated, she took a lot of notes.

Jim Mann asked, what is she doing now?

Director Weaver stated, she switched Companies, she is with another company and I do have a copy of her card in my office.

President Charles Anderson stated, I think we got burnt one other time on the last one.

Director Weaver stated, like I said I will know more after Thursday. John has a conference call with both of them.

Dennis Sterrett stated, we haven’t had anything in the paper, we were planning on have 2 public hearings or one.

Director Weaver stated, we were going to have one public hearing before we had the APC public hearing. We still had the Tier 2 that she hadn’t gone over, she had done the Tier 2 the Wolcott corridor and we were going to have a meeting to go over that and we never did. She also was suppose to get with Dave Anderson and myself regarding mobile homes. The mobile home section of the ordinance and that did not happen either.

Attorney Altman asked, what have you received in final form?

Director Weaver stated, I have not received anything. Also I just wanted to mention that I know the APC received a letter complaint on the office last week. I just basically want to say thank you to those who called us and asked us what it was pertaining to. I appreciate that because so many time we don’t an opportunity to explain what we saw go on. So I appreciate those who called.

Attorney Altman stated, they didn’t send it to your lawyer so I don’t know what you are talking about.

Director Weaver stated they didn’t send me a copy either, I was oblivious to it. Basically what it boiled down to I think the complaint is with the Building Department and not with Area Plan office.

President Charles Anderson asked, was that from Donya?

Director Weaver stated, yes. It really was that Area Plan got involved because Area Plan helps the Building Department out when receiving information on building permits. The problem really hinged on the Building Department not our office.

David Scott stated, Denny called him and I called him and Denny had him mad by the time I got to him.

Director Weaver stated, when they first came in no the subdivision, as a matter of fact this is with Mary Whitman the subdivision I don’t who called and who didn’t. I actually ended up sending a letter to her and telling her to come in and sign the subdivision plat and get it recorded so they could even get the building permit, they tried to pick up the permit and the plat wasn’t recorded.

Attorney Altman stated, why does that not surprise me at all, she wouldn’t do that.

Director Weaver stated, I do appreciate those who called and it is very frustrating from our end to not get a chance to let you know our side of the story. Also I have given you the 2006 annual report. In the letter I know those of you who have been around awhile. There is no information in that report regarding building permit information income, or how many issued, because we no longer have that information so it is not there.

President Charles Anderson asked, why would they send that to me?

Director Weaver stated, they sent it to everyone.

President Charles Anderson asked, why would they call me, oh you sent that?

Director Weaver stated, no I didn’t send it, it came from the Commissioner’s secretary.

President Charles Anderson asked, but why wouldn’t he call me if he wanted to talk to me?

Director Weaver stated, I didn’t even know about it until the board members started calling the office. I had no idea.

Attorney Altman asked, is that the complaint?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

President Charles Anderson stated, there is no complaint there

Director Weaver stated, no.

David Rosenbarger stated, I had a very lengthy discussion with her on the phone.

Director Weaver stated, one other thing I would like to mention to the board, I don’t know if any of you remember Melanie Harl who use to work in the office about 3 years ago and she left us on her own and she is coming back. She is our new employee, she starts February 26th.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other business?

Director Weaver stated, no that is all I have.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission