Get Adobe Flash player

 


The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, March 12, 2007, at 7,30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Mike Smolek, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, Greg Bossaer, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Mitch Juris, Mike Annerino, Don Furrer, Don Pauken, Bob Brown, Cindy Whitmore and Harvey Garbison.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. A motion was made to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the February 12, 2007 meeting. Motion was seconded and carried unanimously.

****

#925 Mitchell A. & Renee C. Juris; The property is located on 1.887 acres, Part N ½ 16-27-3, in Union Township, located North of Monticello, West of East Shafer Drive and on the North side of Neininger Drive.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1to R-2.

President Anderson asked, is there anyone here to represent their request?

Mitch Juris stated, I am.

President Anderson stated, state your name.

Mitch Juris stated, Mitch Juris.

President Anderson asked, the commissioners have any questions about that request?

President Anderson stated, anybody in the audience have any questions about that request?

President Anderson stated, come forward and state your name.

Cindy Whitmore stated, my name is Cindy Whitmore and I live out there. I was just wanting to know what it is being rezoned for.

President Anderson stated, residential, it looks like to me.

Cindy Whitmore asked, renters?

President Anderson asked, do you want to expand a little on that?

Mitch Juris stated, it is being rezoned for residential.

President Anderson asked, do you have any idea what you’re going to build there right now or are you going to sell a lot or….

Mitch Juris stated, well, my immediate plans are to build two homes on the end for my family. But other than that I’m not doing anything else yet.

President Anderson asked, so then even on that you’d have to subdivide that?

Mitch Juris stated, it’s in subdivision right now.

President Anderson asked, ok. Is it already subdivided in several different lots?

Mitch Juris stated, yes

Cindy Whitmore asked, is it going to be for rentals?

Mitch Juris stated, not now.

President Anderson asked, how is it subdivided then?

Mitch Juris asked, did you get a survey?

Cindy Whitmore stated, no, we still have not received the subdivision.

Mitch Juris stated, right, it’s in the process of.

Cindy Whitmore stated, this is the preliminary in subdividing it.

President Anderson asked, you have to subdivide it afterward?

Mitch Juris stated, correct.

President Anderson stated, that’s what I’m saying.

Mitch Juris stated, right.

President Anderson stated, it’s not a subdivision right now.

Mitch Juris stated, correct.

President Anderson asked, any other questions about that?

Cindy Whitmore stated, the area back there is very quiet, very nice, we get more of these places being built that start out as zoning homes for the family but then they rent it.

President Anderson stated, we can’t control what he is going to do with that, I mean that’s not, you know if he’s talking about two lots on a little over two acres in a subdivision in an area that is pretty much residential around there and things like that we can’t, that’s not…..

Mitch Juris stated, I plan on retiring there. I don’t plan on renting them out, if that’s your concern.

Cindy Whitmore stated, that is my concern.

Attorney Altman stated, The only thing I can say is, is we’re rezoning it to R-2 and if somebody wants, someday to put rentals on there like you, if rentals go on your property also, if you happen to wish to put them on there we can’t stop that. Like Doc said we don’t regulate that we just regulate the use to residential. Ok?

President Anderson asked, how many lots on 1.87 acres, how many lots could he subdivide that into?

Director Weaver stated, I have not figured that. 6,000 square feet per lot is the minimum.

President Anderson asked, how much?

Director Weaver stated, they have to be a minimum of 6,000 square feet for a single family residence.

President Anderson stated, so it would be several lots.

Director Weaver stated, and then they’ve got to be 60 foot….

Mitch Juris stated, I have, in the Area Plan right now with five lots going on it.

President Anderson asked, is that what your, any other questions from the audience about the request?

Don Ward asked, why did you go with one and two family residence, single family?

Mitch Juris asked, pardon me?

Don Ward asked, why did you go with R-2 instead of R-1, one family?

Mitch Juris stated, I don’t know what the difference is so I was just getting it from Area Plan.

Don Ward stated, well, R-1 would be a one family home, R-2, you could have a double.

Mitch Juris stated, well, I really don’t want a double so I would really want R-1. The actual sign that they put out front said R-1, so maybe there was a clerical error there.

Director Weaver stated, I didn’t even see your sign when I went out to the property, so….

Mitch Juris stated, I’m putting a single family home on it. I’m not putting a duplex or something on it.

Director Weaver asked, Jerry we could amend that tonight, couldn’t we, to an R-1?

President Anderson stated, we could put a restriction on that. Would you be in agreement or disagreement with that?

Mitch Juris stated, no, I wouldn’t mind.

Charlie Anderson asked, would you guys in the back feel better if he did that too?

A member of the audience stated, sure.

President Anderson stated, we could do that.

Attorney Altman stated, so it would be amended to an R-1. You could go that way. You can’t go the other way.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, right.

Mike Smolek asked, are we ready to make a motion for that?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, we sure do.

Mike Smolek stated, I make the motion we zone it to R-1.

The motion was seconded.

President Anderson stated, so moved then.

Mitch Juris asked, so the R-1 gives me a single family residence?

President Anderson stated, single family residence but you can still have the private lines.

Mitch Juris stated, right.

President Anderson stated, with single family residence.

Mitch Juris stated, that’s what I wanted, I don’t know why R-2 came up.

Director Weaver stated, It does have a little bit different requirements, does require 7500 square feet for a home and it does require a width of 70 feet, minimum.

Mitch Juris stated, ok, the lots are broken up to roughly 100, four lots are 100 x140 and that one lot is 202x140.

President Anderson stated, you got plenty of room then on that.

Director Weaver stated, so you would still be ok then.

President Anderson stated, I’d say lets go ahead and vote than.

Denny Sterrett asked can we put anything on our ballot or….

Attorney Altman stated, you can, I always think it’s a good idea Denny. That’s what you’re voting on then if the tape was bad you’ve got the record. We have tapes that have not run.

Director Weaver stated, yes, once or twice.

President Anderson stated, pass that up. Never mind…

President Anderson asked, question back here? Come forward and state your name.

Harvey Garbison stated, Harvey Garbison. I live on 5624 East Neininger Drive. What about the ditch? What is he going to do about the ditch back between the….

Mitch Juris stated, that’s allowing me 200 feet to allow the ditch to go through.

Harvey Garbison stated, I was going to say, oh the ditch will, I was going to say that stays. Right, ok, I didn’t know weather you…

Cindy Whitmore stated, our perimeter drain goes there.

Harvey Garbison stated, yes, our perimeter drain goes into that. Yes that’s all I’m going to say.

President Anderson stated, on the subdivision, that’d be more into the drainage plan on that subdivision with that beyond.

Mitch Juris stated, that’s why the lot was 202 feet.

Attorney Altman stated, the voting on the rezoning 925, are 8 votes cast, 8 yeses as amended to A-1 to R-1.

The results of the vote were as follows, 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.

****

#926 Arthur J. & Sheila S. McGregor; The property is located on Lots 9-16 in Block 3 of Lake Drive Subdivision, in the City of Monticello, Union Township, located 209 Condo Street.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-2 to B-1.

President Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing that request?

Director Weaver stated, I’m not sure we do.

Attorney Altman stated, I was wondering when we pass that out.

President Anderson stated, I didn’t see anyone.

Director Weaver stated, yes, I know Dr. McGregor was not going to be able to make it. He was going to have a representative here.

President Anderson asked, is there anybody here representing Dr. McGregor? If not we’ll move this to the end of the end of the meeting and if we can we’ll bring it back up if somebody shows.

****

#311 Paul J. Spass and Michael Annerino; Requesting secondary approval of a 4 lot subdivision to be known as Annerino Subdivision, on 3.430 acres, Out NE Frax 28-28-3, in Liberty Township, located South of Buffalo and on the South side of Lake Road 76 E, at 5614 E. Lake Road 76 E.

President Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing the request? Want to come forward and state your name? And this is for the secondary, and we have received everything we need as far as…

Director Weaver stated, we have received everything, we have an estimate for both his road and his sewers and we do have a copy of, I put a copy of the letter of credit here for you to review. I believe everything is ready.

President Anderson stated, in order for…

Director Weaver stated, yes.

President Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any questions about that request? And it does meet all the specifications for the subdivision and you’ve got everything as far as getting all the improvements done?

Director Weaver stated, yes, it was brought up in my office today, it was questioned, Lake Road 76 E that comes off of East Shafer Drive that goes to the new road in this subdivision is a private road, and one of the neighbors, I thought he was going to be here tonight but one of the neighbors had concerns that if Mr. Annerino’s road is a public road and the road going to it is a private road, if the county actually had the right to go on the property, or go on that road to go to Annerino Subdivision. I called Jerry and gave him a for warning that this was going to be questioned that hopefully we could have an answer because we didn’t know really how to answer that when it came in.

Attorney Altman stated, I’ve given it quite a bit of thought and for about an hour and a half and I feel like I haven’t seen the dedication on the quote private road but lots of times, the private roads, because of use, have been expanded really to the equivalent of a public easement and…

President Anderson asked, Is there more than one house on that private road?

Director Weaver stated, yes

Mike Annerino stated, there’s probably, when you get to the end of the road there’s probably 15 to 20 houses.

President Anderson asked, this is the one they want to make sure your going to maintain the road on and everything and you guys are doing that yourself anyway what…

Mike Annerino stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, and I just feel like that it’s because of use it has aspects of publicness such that I think that clearly the county is able to do that.

President Anderson stated, I don’t see there’s any problem there.

Mike Annerino stated, I just want to do whatever is going to make everybody happy back there in that area.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think this actually had to do with what you were doing here other than you do have to pay for those things that on the road but I think the county has a right to get in there.

Mike Annerino stated, they plow it now.

President Anderson stated, their plowing…

Director Weaver asked, they do plow it?

Somebody stated, yes, they said that they plow it

Mike Annerino stated, that’s what the people at the last meeting said, the county’s back in there plow it but nobody knew who owned the road or whose road it was but whatever we have to do like if I have to make it private, county, it doesn’t matter to me either way. I have to do it up to county standards and I figured I might as well make it a county road so they would maintain it.

Attorney Altman stated, Exactly, I agree with you and I think that’s exactly what the other road would have the right to do.

President Anderson stated, we got one over here.

Dennis Sterrett stated, that gentleman came to my office too and I went down and looked it up. There’s two subdivisions west of you, one of them is Woodlawn Park and the other one is Chambers Addition.

Mike Annerino stated, yes, the road T’s there.

Dennis Sterrett stated, and there was, when Woodlawn Park was platted there was a 16 1/2 foot road platted back in there from that and then later on they dedicated another 16 1/2 foot off the north side of that.

Mike Annerino stated, I think his main concern, the gentleman that went to your office and everybody else’s office, I had talked to him today too, and his main concern was that if I made my road a county road that they thought they were going to make him make the other road coming in a county road and I don’t think they just made roads county roads without you requesting it as far as I know.

President Anderson stated, if it’s already a road he can’t…

Mike Annerino stated, well, it’s not wide enough, yes.

President Anderson stated, the county can’t force them into bringing it up to county specifications I don’t think now, that road would be…

Don Ward stated, actually it’s an advantage to make it a county road.

President Anderson stated, yes, it would be.

Don Ward stated, then the liability and everything is out of his hands.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, I agree Don, totally agree with that.

President Anderson stated, I mean it wouldn’t just be him though, it would be everybody else on that road to that.

Mike Annerino stated, they don’t want their road a county road is the concern.

Don Ward asked, well, does one man own it or who…

President Anderson stated, no, its, they don’t even know who owns it.

Mike Annerino stated, they don’t want their road coming into their houses a county or one specific person that I know of, I don’t know about the rest of the people.

Director Weaver stated, well the gentleman that was in my office, they own the property to the North of this road and to the South of this road so if they would have to bring it up to county specs they would have to give up property to make it wider.

Mike Annerino stated, because it’s not wide enough.

Director Weaver stated, that’s where he owns.

Don Ward stated, well, I was thinking, down to the T, not the part along the lake but down from the county road to the T make that county road and then your road would connect but if they don’t want to do it, its their business. The county can stop plowing it anytime they want to.

Mike Annerino stated, I just figured it was beneficial to let the county maintain it rather than me.

Don Ward stated, the county can stop plowing it anytime they want to.

Mike Annerino stated, yes, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree Don. I think they got a right to go in there.

President Anderson stated, there have been so many people using that for access, they can’t shut it off.

Mike Annerino stated, there’s a lot of houses in there.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s the bottom line.

Don Ward stated, well, whatever.

President Anderson stated, let’s go ahead and vote on it.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Annerino Subdivision was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

Attorney Altman stated, primary approval has been granted and subdivision is in compliance for secondary approval due to the bond in file.

****

#312 Roland Rosenboom; Requesting approval of a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Monticello Acres, on 1.578 acres, Part NE ¼ of the SE ¼ 29-26-3. The property is located in Union Township, south of Monticello at 5726 South Springboro Road.

President Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing this request? Want to come forward and state your name.

Don Furrer stated, Don Furrer, I’m representing Rolly. This house is already on the property and he bought the property and there has already been one house sold off he has to do this subdivision to be able to resell that one house.

President Anderson asked, is this for both primary and secondary?

Director Weaver stated, yes, this is one is here for both.

President Anderson asked, will this meet all the specifications of the subdivision?

Director Weaver stated, I believe it does.

President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions about this request?

Attorney Altman asked, no improvements are necessary, right Diann?

Director Weaver stated, not to my knowledge, no.

President Anderson stated, and that would be for the secondary anyway, wouldn’t it.

Jerry Altman stated, well, you’re right technically.

President Anderson stated, lets go ahead and vote and then we can vote on the secondary too.

The Primary Approval for a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Monticello Acres Subdivision was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

Attorney Altman asked, as I understand it, it is ready then for secondary approval ballots, right?

President Anderson stated, there are no improvements needed on it, so I’d say unless the Commissioners have any questions, let’s go ahead and vote on it.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Monticello Acres Subdivision was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

****

President Anderson stated, next on the agenda will be business. Diann do you have anything?

I know Jerry has got something.

Director Weaver stated, well, I did give the board a copy of a letter that I drafted up. I am required to give Greg Jacobs a letter stating why his request was denied at the last meeting. I kind of struggled with this letter, so I drafted this up. I’m presenting it to you guys for you to critique, and if you see something you want to change, please, let me know.

Don Ward stated, I think number one, item number one will probably shake him down to his toe.

Director Weaver stated, I kind of took that one out of the ordinance, is how I came up with that one.

Attorney Altman stated, I think it’s appropriate, however, given…..

Don Ward stated, it probably is, but he’s done hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of work out there.

Director Weaver stated, you’re right.

Don Ward stated, he’s way ahead of the engineering, which makes it very, very risky.

Director Weaver stated, so you’re not saying take it out, you’re just saying that its, its harsh.

Don Ward stated ,well, I think it will scare him.

Don Ward stated, maybe he needs some scaring.

President Anderson asked well, the only thing is he tried to change that plan and you got that down at the bottom, don’t you?

Attorney Altman stated, yes. I agree, I didn’t think, I just looked at this today and………

President Anderson stated, he still has the right to do what he originally planned anyway.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

President Anderson stated: we’re not taking that away from him.

Attorney Altman stated: no.

President Anderson stated: you can’t take that away from him unless he would come…

Don Ward stated, well, I don’t know whether it’s the right, or not, he has the right to come before us to see if he can get the approval.

President Anderson stated, he got it approved.

Mike Smolek asked, I was going to say, he hasn’t got the secondary yet, has he?

Director Weaver stated: well, he doesn’t have his secondary.

President Anderson stated, he got the primary.

Director Weaver stated: right.

Don Ward stated, he has approval to do something else but not what he wants.

Jerry Altman stated, that’s right.

Don Ward stated, we have him primary approval to do the other.

Attorney Altman stated, he hasn’t come in to ask for secondary.

Director Weaver stated, right.

Don Ward stated, he doesn’t want to do what he had set up before, I’m sure. He’s got it ready for the one that he came in for last time for us to change to. He doesn’t have it set up for the other one anymore. Did you go out and look at the hole, have you done that?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, it’s deep.

Don Ward stated, it’s amazing.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, he’s moved a lot of dirt.

Don Ward stated, he’s way ahead of his engineering that’s his problem.

Director Weaver asked, my pictures didn’t do it justice, did it?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, but most of the dirt moving is in Carroll County.

Don Ward stated, they moved it over there.

Director Weaver stated, the dirt came from White County and went into Carroll County.

Mike Smolek asked, have you sent this out yet?

Director Weaver stated, no, I was waiting on you guys to look at it before I, I had thirty days so I still have a couple of days yet to get it in the mail.

Jim Mann asked, has he been in to see you?

Director Weaver stated, I have not seen him since you and I talked the last time.

Jim Mann stated, he came in to see me out at the office and I think he’s trying to make sure that he understands what it means when he makes the change of what documentation from the guidelines he has to follow so when you said something to me about having a draft of a letter or putting something together I thought that was great. When I look at this I just wonder if this is what he is expecting.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know if he’s expecting a letter at all. I have not mentioned that to him.

Jim Mann stated, well I mean what I was referring to was the detail to which he needs to follow to do what…

Director Weaver stated, it’s not very detailed, your right.

Jim Mann stated, ok and I know you struggled with it, how much to say, and what to put in there, because actually it’s listed in there what he needs to do but I think its tougher discussion, I’m not quite not sure he grasps everything that he needs to do especially based on the change that he’s presenting to us at the meeting, the last one he was here.

Director Weaver stated, I did, I really did.

Mike Smolek asked, It is our obligation, I guess to draft the paper of what we need if he is going to change this like he is planning that he needs to start over with more fact and stuff like that or what do we need for him to go forward?

Director Weaver asked, how detailed do we get?

President Anderson stated, he’s got to bring more than a dream here.

Mike Smolek stated, right I understand that he’s already got all the dirt moved or half of it and we have nothing, basically.

Jim Mann stated, that’s the same question I asked. What is our responsibility, how far do you…

President Anderson stated, we don’t engineer it for him, he’s got to….

Jim Mann stated, I mean, the basic perimeters of what he has to do to be ready to come to see us.

Yes, and that includes a lot of things.

Mike Smolek stated, I guess to me that 10% down here is a big number because he’s already altered it that much with that plan. So does he really need to start over and say this is what I’m thinking now?

Director Weaver stated, well I wondered if I should put a sentence in there that if you want to follow through with this plan you must resubmit.

Mike Smolek stated, right.

Director Weaver stated, I did question that.

Don Ward stated, I don’t see how we can ever give an approval of that preliminary on what he has now. Do you? He’s way out of bounds. He’s clear off of his tract.

Attorney Altman stated, if he does, docs right he can go back to what he’s approved but he spent too much money to do that, I think.

Don Ward stated, but all this dirt moving is for his new plan. He has done part of the construction before he has his plan and it’s risky.

Director Weaver stated, it’s very risky.

Don Ward stated, also I’ve been told, and I think Denny knew that the core of engineers weren’t involved yet but he’s put rip rap down and the rip rap went in to the stream and that brings the core into it automatically when you dump into the stream, that’s when they come in so I don’t know why they’re not in there.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, nobody notified them yet.

Mike Smolek asked, is he bonded? Did he get bonded to do any of that?

Dennis Sterrett stated, he said he’s bonded.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, really.

Don Ward stated, I can’t see that it upsets him so much because he’s been through it once. He knows what to do. He really needs to start over.

Dennis Sterrett stated, what I like to say is when he first came in and got the drainage wavered he was starting out on that cliff there with the ravine with, I think it was 7 or 8 duplexes or something like that on top of the hill and that was all, and then he came and got a primary approval from us or something different so therefore he needed to get us a drainage plan. That’s where we are at now.

Director Weaver stated, well the area for the duplexes I think was that the part that came off of Richey Court or Richey Lane or whatever. That was a separate request we still have that plan.

Dennis Sterrett asked, oh do you?

Director Weaver stated, yes, that got tabled and never came back.

Dennis Sterrett stated, for Area Plan.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Dennis Sterrett stated, but it did go through the drainage board.

Don Ward asked, actually he has no certainty that we will approve that plan, none at all and he spent a lot of money on the hope that we would approve it.

Mike Smolek stated, but there’s nothing in the code that says that you can’t move the dirt, right?

Dennis Sterrett stated, right.

Director Weaver stated, not in my ordinance.

Mike Smolek asked, right but how do we protect the people if he backs completely out of this?

President Anderson stated, until you start effecting drainage and flowage and…

Mike Smolek asked, right but how do we protect the people that he’s got all of this dirt moved now and he just leaves it there I mean.

Don Ward stated, we can’t.

Don Ward stated, if we don’t give him approval…

Dave Scott asked, but if he goes to this book, to our Ordinance book and writes what he wants to do out of that book, we can’t turn him down, can we? So he needs to go to that book and write it accordingly to….

Don Ward stated, we might still be able to turn him down I don’t know. Primary approval doesn’t’ mean he’ll get secondary.

President Anderson stated, you could turn him down on a planned development. A planned development is not like a subdivision.

Director Weaver stated, right a planned development doesn’t have certain requirements, specific requirements.

Attorney Altman stated, but you have to give him a list of why and this is, what Diann is doing here is giving him a list why.

Director Weaver stated, I’m trying.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I remember that other meeting we were worried about how close the buildings were together, you know.

Mike Smolek stated, going back to that first statement is affect public health safety and welfare.

President Anderson stated, the density of what he is trying to do to me is too much and that would affect public health.

Attorney Altman asked, any addition do you think that Diann ought to add to the letter?

Don Ward asked, I think somebody had the one about starting over and I think that’s the point where he is. If he wants to do or make those changes he needs to start over don’t you agree? I mean how else are we going to approve it?

Mike Smolek asked, can you do that to his letter just highlight that bottom one and say if you want to do this you need to start over with plans?

Attorney Altman stated, with plans and specifications.

Don Ward stated, and following the PUD book.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, good.

Don Ward stated, because he’s going to half to because the people out there are going to force him to…

President Anderson asked, wouldn’t he have to present us with some way of actually paying for what he wants to do I mean your talking millions of…

Mike Smolek asked, that would be more secondary, wouldn’t it?

Attorney Altman stated, that would be more secondary.

Mike Smolek stated, where he’s got to prove the cost of everything.

Don Ward stated, he’s got to come the initial cost too.

President Anderson stated, which he doesn’t do.

Don Ward stated, which he doesn’t do, he never does. That’s why I’m talking money about, because I don’t think he knows and it’s an estimate, a shotgun estimate or better than that an educated estimate. May not be real accurate but it should be close and what he’s going to do and his preliminary plan should be the scope of what he’s going to do and he should follow it. Once it’s approved by us he should follow it to the end and the 10% only means all the little things added together that he changes is no more than 10%. He’s changing 50% right off the bat.

President Anderson asked, what do you guys feel about that boat storage there? Do you think that’s really…

Don Ward stated, that’s 50% right there.

President Anderson asked, yes, but do you think that’s actually feasible?

Don Ward stated, he’s completely changed it.

Mike Smolek asked, technology wise it is feasible, monetarily wise how is he going to back it up?

Don Ward stated, sure, if he wants to spend the money, you can do anything.

Dave Rosenbarger stated they’re building stuff that…

Don Ward stated, I mean I’m not trying to stop him I’m just saying we can’t go along with that and say it’s ok to change the thing 50% or 60% its way out of bounds but preliminary plans should be followed to the end. That’s why we approved it and the 10% means nothing about moving stuff around and everything. It means taking care of all the little items.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s right then it’ll always come up that you got to modify it a little bit.

Jim Mann stated, yes, so if he dropped back to reproaching us on what was approved in the past, he could do that as long as he followed and picked up from that point and regrouped. What we’ve seen and heard is much different obviously.

Don Ward stated, but the problem is he’s done all that excavation for the one he wants he has already done the dirt work, the excavation and he’s not going to go back and redo all that. He should just come in with what he wants and let us look at it

Dave Scott stated, and stick to it.

Don Ward stated, and stick to it yes once it’s approved, stick to it.

Dennis Sterrett asked, you don’t think the dirt work he done is for what had he presented us that got approved?

Don Ward stated, originally? I don’t think so.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, no, because he took too much of that hill away because where that hill has disappeared.

Don Ward stated, he’s actually gotten it ready for what he wants which is all the boat slips.

He’s not going to want to haul….

President Anderson stated, but if he wants that he’s going to have to bring it for a new approval, if that’s the actual plan that he wants, he’s going to have to bring in and we have to approve it again it can’t be, I mean he can’t just bring it in…

Dave Scott asked, for primary approval we need to see a master plan, is what you’re saying?

Don Ward stated, follow all the requirements of the PUD and that means money and the whole works so we can see. He didn’t do that do that before. He didn’t bring in the money.

President Anderson asked, the plan he brought before us, can we talk about that?

Don Ward stated, it’s our job to see that he can follow through.

Attorney Altman asked, now, you mean?

President Anderson asked, you think the density is too high that he’s talking about?

Don Ward stated, the density is plenty high that’s for sure.

Attorney Altman stated, I think you certainly can talk about because it bears on the letter that Diann is sending out, in other words we’re not deciding anything we’re just helping her with some guidance with what to put in that letter.

President Anderson stated, you have to say we have some questions about the density too.

Attorney Altman asked, versus the density of what was approved. That’s what your saying, right Doc?

President Anderson stated, yes, pretty much.

Attorney Altman stated, A & B.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, but his original on the density isn’t that high on the White County side. All the density is on the Carroll and I don’t we can ….

Don Ward stated, no it’s on us.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, there was only four building on us.

Don Ward stated, I thought there were four one way and two the other.

President Anderson stated, he’s got six here.

Director Weaver stated, there were four condominium buildings and there were six single family, I think.

Don Ward stated, then they had some other…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, okay.

Don Ward stated, he had 57 units.

President Anderson stated, but he’s wanting to do away with single family and go with more but he said he wasn’t going to change the density that much with from the original plan but I still think the original plan….

Director Weaver stated, his number of units didn’t change. His over all number of units didn’t change but the number of buildings did change.

President Anderson stated, and then its boat storage.

Don Ward stated, he wants to build condominiums in Carroll County but he wants their boat storage in White County

President Anderson stated, in White County yeah.

Don Ward stated, and I don’t think Carroll County is going to do anything for him until we make a move and I don’t see how we can do anything unless he follows the PUD and brings it in here and lets us see the whole ball of wax because he’s going to get opposition, you know that, he’s already had it.

President Anderson stated, I think so too.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, that’s the sad part about him doing all that work without getting his approvals first because he’s got a lot of money invested and he may not get what he wants.

Attorney Altman stated, well that’s the way it is though it’s a big boys world.

Don Ward stated, that’s right it’s the same with that other PUD we had down there at the south end of town, same deal.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I think he’s got more opposition now because of his dirt work.

Director Weaver stated, I do too, I agree.

Attorney Altman asked, ok, any more Diann? Anything you need?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t think so.

Attorney Altman stated, very briefly we have file suite against, I don’t know whether you know where Spears Beach Vue Resort is, across from Indiana Beach. Spear had two lots in there and he had like a lot of the small resort areas that blossomed around Indiana Beach and that became basically a grandfather nonconforming use but everybody thought it was ok and we let it go and it, and I mean since before 72 it was being used and sold that way as far as we can tell and as far as Diann can research it. Well, recently what has happened is they have apparently tried to sell units off of that. We got, Diann got a copy because somebody brought one in and then they tried to record a condominium setup, ok, and the condominium just shows 11 units on there and, you talk about PUD that’s what it really what it should be and is. Basically we filed suite that it is a non-grandfathered now because they are selling to people not renting to everybody that in the summertime and what have you, non-conforming use. They’ve also by trying to sell units that they call off there I think they’ve probably violated the Subdivision Control Ordinance also and we’ve filed suite in the court to get declaratory action on it.

President Anderson asked, have they already sold those units?

Attorney Altman stated, I think they have Doc. From we can tell Diann, Diann has had several, go ahead Diann.

Director Weaver stated, I have had several people contact me over the last two years and they say that they have contracts and have purchased on contract.

Attorney Altman stated, we have got our hands on one, one brought in and it’s very much like a contract like a sale of a unit.

Dennis Sterrett asked, are these all existing buildings or are they adding new, you think?

Attorney Altman stated, apparently they’re existing Denny.

Director Weaver stated, I believe so, I believe they are existing.

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s where I mean it was probably a grandfathered, non-conforming use. In other words they rented them to people…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, rented them as cottages.

Jerry Altman stated, as cottages in the summertime, or whenever and there is a lot of that around that area, well on the lakes too and most of it I venture to say happened before there was an ordinance in 72. Jim you’ve been around here and we’d like to talk to your dad maybe about that because we need a little more institutional memory on that but I bet, you know and now they are just trying to use the word condominium and circumvent subdivision.

Jim Mann asked, there’s actually been contracts?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, and this when you look at it if you didn’t know different, you’d think it’s either a subdivision, the sketch and plan, or a PUD.

Dennis Sterrett asked, is it kind of like Butterfield Camp?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, only, well at least that dense Denny.

Director Weaver stated, well there is no road going back in it. There is only one main road.

Attorney Altman stated, now, again if they came in with the proper PUD I think they …I’m just saying they haven’t followed the Ordinances. That’s all I’m really trying to say, in filing this but if you don’t do it here man, its going to be, everybody’s going to do it.

President Anderson stated, it wouldn’t be hard…

Attorney Altman stated, and they won’t have any supervision by the, and they won’t meet the standards at all Doc.

Director Weaver stated, maybe you said this and I didn’t catch it but we have tried to talk to their attorney. They had an attorney from over around Kokomo or over that direction and Jerry contacted him and we tried to talk to him, explain to him what they needed to be doing and we haven’t gotten anywhere with it.

Don Ward stated, the attorney’s getting paid by him so…

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing they want to do is record it and go.

President Anderson stated, they can’t record it individually record those and that’s what those people would have to have.

Attorney Altman stated, yes that’s what they have to have.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, so is that what they’ve done?

Attorney Altman stated, they’ve entered this for taxation but they’ve not recorded as individual unites like Doc’s talking about.

President Anderson, if they are sold off as individual units they have to be recorded.

Director Weaver stated, they did not change the legal description of the property.

Dennis Sterrett stated, so if somebody wanted to buy a unit H or something, they can’t do it. They can’t transfer.

Attorney Altman stated, it’s not split off.

President Anderson stated, they can buy it but they can’t resell it.

Dennis Sterrett stated, that’s what I mean, transfer it in the Court House.

Attorney Altman stated, and again I’m not saying it’s maybe so bad but this is why Diann and I have been trying to cooperate and at least see what we can have.

President Anderson stated, that would be the only way to handle it if they wanted to sell these off because you couldn’t make it a subdivision you’d have to make it Planned Unit Development.

Director Weaver stated, oh yes.

Attorney Altman stated, I think so Doc.

President Anderson stated, so I’d say you’re doing the right thing.

Director Weaver stated, and their attorney even gave us out of the Indiana Code the part that says the Subdivision Ordinance does not regulate condominiums.

Jerry Altman stated, no but…

Director Weaver stated, the Zoning Ordinance does.

Attorney Altman stated, the Zoning Ordinance does and before it’s a condominium we do have the Subdivision Ordinance does control that.

President Anderson stated, I’d say let’s let the court decide.

Attorney Altman stated, again more letting you guys know what we’re doing than anything.

Dennis Sterrett asked, so how are you, you’re suing them?

Attorney Altman stated, yes for Declaratory Action…of the Judge, in this case in Superior Court.

President Anderson stated, let a Judge decide it.

Attorney Altman asked, this we filed Wednesday, was it, last week?

Director Weaver stated, it might have been Thursday or Friday. It was the end of last week.

Attorney Altman stated, again just letting the board know and that’s all I’ve got to report.

President Anderson asked, any other new business or old business?

Greg Bossaer stated, one thing, you may have talked about this the last meeting but I was absent. It has to do with Wind Ordinances.

Director Weaver stated, thank you, I knew I would forget.

Greg Bossaer stated, we have three different energy company’s looking in the county to start developing wind farms.

President Anderson stated, wind.

Director Weaver stated, wind farms.

Greg Bossaer stated, comparable to what Benton County has gone through. Benton County has kind of done the research and has got good template for us to look at. Clinton County has also been involved with this. Obviously, when we totally rewrite our ordinance we will have to do something with that but before then we’re probably going to have to, because I think it’s going to come pretty quick.

President Anderson asked, and Benton County’s charging how much per?

Director Weaver stated, twenty thousand dollars I think for the zoning end of it and twenty-five hundred per unit.

President Anderson stated, per unit.

Attorney Altman asked, do you have a copy of that ordinance?

Director Weaver stated, I do.

Greg Bossaer stated, it’s on the Benton County CES website.

President Anderson asked, have they already started? Did anybody check other areas that have those?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, it’s the first one in Indiana.

Greg Bossaer stated, Minnesota, Iowa but they’re looking all over the state, all over the northern half of the state.

Director Weaver stated, well what I gathered from that meeting that I attended that White County and Benton County are the prime in the state.

Greg Bossaer stated, we’ve got the most wind.

Attorney Altman stated, so what you’re saying is this is something that we ought to be seriously moving forward on right away so maybe we could……….

Greg Bossaer stated, I could get you a copy or Diann could.

Director Weaver stated, I’ve got a copy.

Attorney Altman stated, let’s review it and maybe we can get it advertised.

Director Weaver stated, I will get a copy…

Attorney Altman stated, personalized and then advertised maybe. We’ve got to move ahead.

President Anderson asked, what kind of kind of rent do those companies pay on individual towers?

Greg Bossaer stated, it varies some of them are per acre some are five to six thousand per year.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, some of them are percentage of income. It’s all over the board.

Greg Bossaer stated, the big thing has to do with taxes. There is a thing in the state that they can get a tax abatement. So we have to be sure…

Mike Smolek asked, now these are mostly big companies doing it, not individuals?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, no.

Mike Smolek stated, well up in Minnesota they’ve got some farmers that pool together and make co-ops you might say.

Greg Bossaer stated, no these are major companies that will be tying in to generate electricity right there on the grid.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, what did they say, a million and a half dollars per tower, like a 120 towers.

Greg Bossaer stated, potentially.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, one farm. It depends on which company.

Greg Bossaer stated, that will be the whole area. The whole wind farm not one.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, that’s what I’m saying what they classify as a wind farm.

Greg Bossaer stated, some people may have 2 or 3 turbins, some may have nothing and then push all the infrastructure, new roads. There are a lot of issues. Especially for the county because some of these towers with the turbin on it can go 500 feet.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, right. Some of them are as high as 300 feet just to the motor and they are single structure, it’s just a pole coming out of the ground.

President Anderson stated, yes I’ve stood under them out in Iowa, not in Iowa, in Kansas.

Dave Scott asked, they are wanting something from BZA for test towers or something?

Director Weaver stated, yes, BZA has two on their agenda for Thursday night for test towers, yes. This is coming up quick.

Dave Scott asked, so is there something that we should know?

Greg Bossaer asked, those aren’t permanent?

Director Weaver stated, no, they are not permanent structures. They are temporary structures but temporary meaning like two years. I mean they could there up to two years.

Don Ward stated, I saw those in California.

Greg Bossaer stated, but physically when they leave I think the ground can be returned to normal.

Director Weaver stated, and they basically do look like a tower to me.

Don Ward stated, replace ethanol with wind.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, another alternative.

President Anderson asked, anything else?

Jim Mann stated, is there any update on the ordinance?

Director Weaver stated, I haven’t heard anymore.

Dave Rosenbarger made a motion to adjourn.

Dave Scott seconded the motion.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Director Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“I AFFIRM, UNDER THE PENALTIES FOR PERJURY, THAT I HAVE TAKEN REASONABLE CARE TO REDACT EACH SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER IN THIS DOCUMENT, UNLESS REQUIRED BY LAW.”

_________________________________________________