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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, September 10, 2007, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Mike Smolek, David Rosenbarger, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, Greg Bossaer, Robert Thomas, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Charles R. Mellon, Philll Zimmerman, Nancy Downey, Patrick Mazgaj, Perry McWilliams, Jeff Nagel, Larry Moser, Suzie Ford, W. Otie Kilmer, and Don Pauken.

The meeting was called to order by Vice President David Rosenbarger and roll call was taken. Vice President David Rosenbarger stated that Diann has informed me that we still don’t have the minutes completed for August, so we will put those on hold for now.


#941 Fertilizer Dealer Supply Inc, Owner & Phill Zimmerman, Applicant; The property is located on 10 Acres, NE SE 1-25-6 in Round Grove Township, located West of Brookston, on the West side of U.S. Highway 231 between C.R. 700 S and C.R. 800 S.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to B-2.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, anyone here representing this application. Step forward to the mic and speak your name please.

Phill Zimmerman stated, Phill Zimmerman with Fertilizer Dealer Supply.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, any Commissioners have any questions? Is this where the corn field sits, kind of?

Director Weaver stated, I didn’t make it out there. I did not make it out to this property, so I do not have pictures for the Board. I do have an aerial photo.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, where the Quonset sits?

Director Weaver stated, it is where the Quonset sits, okay.

Don Ward asked, do you know how tall the buildings are you intend to build?

Phill Zimmerman stated, oh, not for sure, but it would be the size of a typical shop. We’ll have probably 15 to 16 foot ceilings inside that. It’s going to be a pole barn type structure.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, similar to what you did in Fowler now?

Phill Zimmerman stated, yeah, exactly, the same, just moving it closer to the interstate and starting from with a new building.

Don Ward stated, well we have a letter from Bob Leader about, requesting we hold it until they know where the wind turbines are going, then we have another letter that, I don’t know when, it wasn’t dated but says that as long as the buildings aren’t taller than 65 feet he would have no objection.

Philll Zimmerman stated, I don’t think it’s going to be 65 feet.

Don Ward asked, you don’t, you don’t think it will be an issue?

Philll Zimmerman stated, uh, I don’t think so. And, my understanding, well I don’t know, I talked to the owners, the previous owners of the property, the Bell, the Bell’s and, you know, it sounded to me like the wind, wind things were going to be South of there and probably East of there, so, but it makes no difference to us if there right next to us or on our property or, I mean, we might be interested in putting one on the back side even, so were open to that, we knew that when we purchased it.

Attorney Altman stated, since Mr. Leader’s not here, we did receive a letter I guess, dated 9-5-07 and it’s a subject that requests tonight and it’s a proposed request for Fertilizer Dealer Supply tonight reading the letter to rezone on the West side of U.S. 231 North and 800 South and South of 700 South is located in the heart of a current wind turbine project for White County which would commence in 2008. This proposed facility could affect the location or elimination of a wind turbine. I request a hold on FDS’s request until the location proposed turbines could be considered, thank you, Robert Leader. And then there is, I think it’s the same letter, there is another one that we received on the 10th, address to Michelle. It’s on the same matter. Michelle is a person in our Department. (Jerry Reads Letter from Robert Leader)

Mike Smolek asked, what’s the proposed zoning on the wind farms? Have you gone any farther with that?

Director Weaver stated, no. I have not heard any more on that. I don’t know what the final decision was on that.

Mike Smolek asked, so if we go to B-2 on this, how’s that going to affect them later on?

Director Weaver stated, at this time I don’t know, I can’t tell you that, I don’t know. Because the ordinance is just in the stage of being written, so I, you know.

Mike Smolek stated, right.

Director Weaver stated, even what’s there in black and white now can change before it is adopted.

Mike Smolek asked, well does anyone know where the proposed wind farm is supposed to be?

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, out west.

Attorney Altman stated, and the truth is…

Dave Scott stated, well if you read the letter it says it’s in the middle of, it’s in the middle of the proposed area, well then there’s, all the way around you or…

Philll Zimmerman stated, right, right. I don’t know.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, it’s close to the…

Director Weaver stated, yeah, I can believe that.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, of the proposed map, but there again its still in the, in the, in the planning stages.

Mike Smolek stated, because I didn’t get a copy of that wind map, so I…

Director Weaver stated, no I don’t either, I have a copy of …

Robert Thomas stated, well I’m not opposed to the wind farms, but I don’t think we should be stopping people from wanting to put up business’s and stuff just because we know there’s a wind farm coming in, you know, if they were already started and planned…

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, are you, you going to try to keep this as close to the road as you can?

Philll Zimmerman stated, yes, yes.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, I mean, that’s going to affect…

Philll Zimmerman stated, we're going to, we're going to demolish the…

Dave Scott stated, that’s what I’m saying, there’s no, I guess these letters make it sound it’s going to be, this is going to stop there, but really it’s not going to.

Philll Zimmerman stated, yeah, were talking about demolishing the building that’s there, saving the cement, maybe putting a structure over that eventually, maybe this year, possibly a hoop type style building, canvas type top, just for outside storage. Then were going to build probably a shop that’s in the neighborhood of 120 foot long by 60 or 80 and then T off of that you know a retail parts.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, right.

Phill Zimmerman stated, similar to, if you’re, know what’s in Fowler. It would be similar to that. Similar to the John Deer Dealership out here, that’s basically what we do, we sell sprayers and parts and that type of thing so you know we need a shop tall enough to get a big sprayer in. So it’s not going to be 65 feet.

Dave Scott stated, Diann if we rezone this to B-2 what is the maximum height he can go without a variance.

Director Weaver stated, I believe its 45 feet.

Dave Scott stated, so regardless whether it’s him or somebody else, that’s the tallest they can do that.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, yeah.

Director Weaver stated, that’s right.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, do we have any comments from the audience? Any more comments from the Commissioners? Okay, let’s vote.

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.

Attorney Altman asked, that will be when Diann?

Director Weaver stated, that will be Monday morning at 8:30 in the morning.

Phill Zimmerman stated, okay.

Don Ward stated, right there.

Attorney Altman stated, right here, next Monday morning, in the morning, 8:30 in the morning.

Phill Zimmerman stated, okay. Do I need to be here for that also?

Attorney Altman stated, I always tell people that it’s the final vote and they do have the discretion to turn it down.

Phill Zimmerman stated, okay, cool.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, thank you Phill.

Phill Zimmerman stated, alright, thank you.


#942 Michael J. & Carolyn Sue Ford; The property is located on 2.04 Acres, SW NW 8-26-3 in Union Township, located South West of Monticello at 2492 S. 425 E.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-1.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, anyone representing that request?

Suzie Ford stated, yes, I am.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, come to the mic and state your name please.

Suzie Ford stated, my name is Suzie Ford.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, any questions from the Commissioners?

James Mann Jr. stated, yes. Point of clarification on the document. It says A-1 to R-1 and then, okay, pardon me, I stand corrected, I just…

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, you seen what’s around it.

James Mann Jr. stated, yeah, I was reading the R-2. Pardon Me.

Director Weaver stated, that’s alright, we make mistakes sometimes too.

Dennis Sterrett stated, actually I was reading that too.

James Mann Jr. stated, sorry.

Director Weaver stated, that’s okay Jim. They are requesting the rezoning because they are planning on subdividing the property, so, into a 2 lot subdivision, is that correct?

Suzie Ford stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, and R-1 would be just single, one family residences right.

Suzie Ford stated, yes. We don’t want to mow so much.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, anyone in the audience have a comment? Commissioners have any questions? Let’s vote.

Attorney Altman stated, there’s lots of single family residences in this location.

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action. That again will be next Monday morning, at 8:30, right here, okay.

Suzie Ford stated, okay, thank you.

Attorney Altman stated, thank you.


#07-7 Regal Development; Requesting Primary approval of a Planned Unit Development to be known as Shafer Shores Town Homes on Lots Number 7 & 8 in Shafer Shores Part 2. The property is located North of Monticello at 4599 N. West Shafer Drive and 4625 N. West Shafer Drive.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, anyone representing this development?

Perry McWilliams stated, I guess I was chosen tonight to represent.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, okay, state your name please.

Perry McWilliams stated, I’m Perry McWilliams.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, Commissioners have any questions?

Director Weaver asked, are you part of Regal Development Perry?

Perry McWilliams stated, no, I’ve actually going to be the contractor. Hopefully, hope, not taking anything, I would be the builder on the project. Actually tonight present we have me as the builder, the architect here, Otie Kilmer from Purdue University, Realtor Larry Moser, and then the owners, Jeff, one of the owners. So...

Attorney Altman asked, and the owners name is…

Jeff Nagel stated, Jeff Nagel.

Attorney Altman asked, okay Jeff, appreciate that. And you signed the application; I’m just looking at it, right. Jeffrey R. Nagel. Okay, very good.

Perry McWilliams stated, so you guys feel free to ask anyone questions, not just me. You know, lets use all these guys, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, and if you do, please come to the mic and respond, cause that away we get it on the record.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, okay, starting out I see 4 levels counting the garage.

Perry McWilliams stated, yes.

Don Ward asked, what is the height on a building like that?

Perry McWilliams stated, well, from, I guess from the water, that elevation, it would probably to the peak end up being 48 feet.

Don Ward asked, when you put an elevator in, is there going to be a stairs also?

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah.

Don Ward stated, so that…

Perry McWilliams stated, well, wait, Otie, yeah.

Otie Kilmer stated, I’m Otie Kilmer, the architect, yes the stairs are there, the elevator is for convenience. Yeah, for fire safety and stuff.

Don Ward stated, I thought looking at it maybe you took the stairs out and…

Otie Kilmer stated, oh no, were doing them both.

Don Ward stated, I was going to say.

Otie Kilmer stated, we looked at that real hard and said, well 4 levels you know, older people like myself, that’s a long ways to go so we got to get an elevator in here somehow, so.

Attorney Altman stated, will each building have stairs and elevator?

Otie Kilmer stated, each building will have stairs and anticipated were…

Attorney Altman stated, okay, I said that wrong, will each unit have a building and stairs for each unit.

Otie Kilmer stated, yes. Yes, the plan is to have each unit have its own elevators since they would be a private residence.

Attorney Altman stated, and own stairs.

Otie Kilmer stated, and own stairs.

Attorney Altman started, okay.

Otie Kilmer stated, yeah, no dual stairs, exiting problems like that, but again we're…

Don Ward asked, those elevators optional or…

Otie Kilmer stated, well were deciding the plans, we didn’t want to get ahead of ourselves and come up with a perfect plan like oh well if we have a problem is why, but at this point I believe…

Larry Moser stated, if the elevators would be option.

Attorney Altman stated, please come up to the mic, okay, we would, it’s not that we, you..

Larry Moser stated, I understand, I understand. The elevators would be an option and it may be something we tie into the eventual plan but we wanted to have the room there to install it.

Attorney Altman asked, and your name sir.

Larry Moser stated, Larry Moser.

Attorney Altman asked, and how are you related to the project?

Larry Moser stated, I’m the realtor that will be taking care of it.

Don Ward asked, is there any amount of, any number of spots…

Director Weaver stated, normal parking requirements would be 2 parking spaces per unit.

Don Ward stated, okay ones inside the garage and ones outside.

Director Weaver stated, it does not specify in our ordinance how that has to be laid out so…

Otie Kilmer stated, if I might add that, yeah, we have the possibility of two inside, they would be tandem loaded, but right now we have one inside and one right outside

Don Ward stated, you call it, you’ve got a stone wall I assume that’s between each unit.

Otie Kilmer stated, well we have a firewall between each one; the stone wall is primarily for visual, acoustical privacy and also to give it…

Don Ward stated, all the way to the top?

Otie Kilmer stated, yes somewhere, we also want the look, rather than just you know just a big wood frame structure puts some character into it with the stone if we can get it cheap enough from Perry.

Don Ward stated, he’ll do it for nothing. That’s why Perry’s coming back to the microphone now.

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah, strike that from the record what Mr. Ward said about doing things for nothing.

Attorney Altman stated, well I guess what we’re looking at or proposing but we may or may not approve, we may or may not require something be done and I’m hearing well we may have elevators, we may not, we may not, we may have stone, we may not, and I guess from the boards point of view and from the futures point of view we need some of this nailed down so that we can even, so we know what were looking at let alone what were going to possibly approve or deny, so that’s why I guess I’m hearing something that I need some more specificity so that we can know whether you did if we approve it what you said you were going to do.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay, well part of that Jerry is almost options in a house, if I will, okay. There will be options available for people certainly and one can vary from the next but number 1 of course we’ve got to have stairs at a bare minimum and we would love to have elevators in each one of them, we think that that is actually going to sell the project. So, you know, but to say in concrete that yes that is it, you know, we just cant do that right now and as far as aesthetically the stone, that’s not a problem, installing that and having that on there, that’s on the current plan.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, so the stone is not optional, the stairs are not optional.

Perry McWilliams stated, the only question is the elevator but at this point in time you know, we know that we will have that, you know, but maybe not in every unit right now. But the fact is you know we would love to do that. Either way there is going to be stairs or elevator. It’s not going to be a safety issue at all okay.

Attorney Altman stated, the way it’s proposed, if there’s an elevator as an example to unit eight it would not be designed such that people from unit seven could use it right.

Perry McWilliams stated, no, no, these are separate town homes okay, and there will be a fire wall and everything will be you know in accordance to code, you know, state code.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand, but the elevators aren’t so they can be used in common.

Perry McWilliams stated, no, this is not common, no, no, they are individual.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, that’s all I’m trying to get done is here, if one has one it’s because they paid the bucks and they can use it and nobody else really is going to be able to get to that.

Perry McWilliams stated, that’s right.

Attorney Altman stated, it won’t be in any other units.

Perry McWilliams stated, exactly.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, thank you.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay, yep.

Director Weaver asked, the basement level on this, how is that going to compare with the elevation now?

Perry McWilliams stated, well our current elevation, and how does it, clarify that question, to what elevation where I guess.

Don Ward stated, to the road.

Director Weaver stated, the lowest floor elevation is it going to be higher or lower to the road elevation.

Perry McWilliams stated, that will be lower certainly than the road is, you know, like a basement would.

Director Weaver stated, so you will be taking some of the dirt out.

Perry McWilliams stated, they, I’m sure it will be.

Director Weaver stated, because the current house is above the road level.

Perry McWilliams stated, yes, yes, and we know that that whole lot topography is shaping towards the water, okay and so it’s safe to assume that walk out or that basement area there will be some dirt removed in order to get that put in there properly.

Director Weaver asked, have you checked into flood elevations, that’s why I’m asking?

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah, uh. Larry, do you want to answer that, you had Bill Stine involved in the flood elevation stuff.

Larry Moser stated, we had Bill Stine come over and survey it and it’s marked on the plan where the flood line would be at and we’re well within the perimeters of that line.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, you’re 7’6’’ from the water level, am I reading that right?

Dave Scott stated, but that’s the not basic flood elevation.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, well that’s just there showing what the lake level is to garage floor level.

Attorney Altman asked, where is it marked on there?

Perry McWilliams stated, is there an x line that goes across there?

Larry Moser stated, we have a larger drawing which we’ll pass around here real quickly.

Don Ward stated, well that’s a lake, lake has to be up to a certain elevation.

Perry McWilliams stated, right, right, and what the flood elevation is what 6 foot above the lake. I mean is, as far as DNR, you know, what we have to build at.

Don Ward stated, 6 feet above.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I don’t think it's that much Perry.

Perry McWilliams stated, well I mean, you need to talk to Dave Anderson then, because you know, I have to build 6 feet above the water.

Dennis Sterrett stated, well I think you got to be 2 foot above the flood stage.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay.

Dennis Sterrett stated, so that’s probably, that’s one of DNR’s requirements.

Perry McWilliams stated, well maybe he does the 6 foot thing because of the flood insurance and to you know as a buffer because I knew he was concerned with you know flood insurance and so that’s what he’s been requiring me to…

Dennis Sterrett, I think the lake is 648, the high water is 652, and you got to be 2 foot above that.

Perry McWilliams stated, above that.

Dennis Sterrett, is that right?

Director Weaver stated, and that’s our local flood ordinance that requires 2 feet above.

Dennis Sterrett stated, so that’s 6 feet.

Perry McWilliams stated, that’s 6 feet, okay, okay, alright, but were, that was the first thing we did Diann, we had Bill go out and go ahead and tell us what the envelope is that we could work, we can build in. Okay, and so we denoted that with that hatch line and then we designed around what we had there you know to build and you guys what we want to do here is not, we just don’t want to put up just some cookie cutter you know low income places. We are looking at high income townhomes and part of the verticality in what were doing here is part of the design because on the top floor you know that actually acts as then the penthouse you know for this unit. So, it is 2 fold you know in what were doing I mean not only economically you know we want the units but the visual that we’re going to have with that and the staggering of them. You know, we’re not just putting a straight row of town homes in there. Hey, were doing something that hasn’t been done yet and we want to do it to a high level.

Otie Kilmer stated, that was my mistake on those, pardon me, small drawings from Bill Stine’s, he has the flood plane, it’s about halfway between the building and the actual property line.

Don Ward stated, property line.

Otie Kilmer, I neglected to get it on there or the machine turned it off on me or something, yeah, but we’d be happy to show that on a drawing.

Attorney Altman stated, not only have to do it, but you need to have it so that it comply with that too.

Otie Kilmer stated, yeah, we have it.

Attorney Altman stated, because it just can’t be built is what it amounts to.

Otie Kilmer stated, we will.

Attorney Altman stated, I’m not speaking for the board, I don’t vote, I can just tell you by law it has to happen.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, does this require some approval thru the drainage board as well?

Director Weaver stated, yes it will.

Don Ward stated, I see you’re using open web joist, are those the ones made out of ply board web and 2 x 4 or 2 x 6?

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah.

Don Ward asked, are those approved by the state?

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah.

Otie Kilmer stated, we’re looking at, I think, 16 inch open web joist not TGI trust joist for access that you can get the mechanical electrical plumbing thru that, but they are approved yes.

Don Ward stated, this looks like 12 inch open web wood joist.

Otie Kilmer stated, it’s an open web wood joist, yes, 2x4 horizontal, and I’ve got several projects in the state thru, no problem with that.

Don Ward stated, well that’s a structural thing anyway but I was thinking here not long ago, you probably read it Perry where the firemen were killed and they thought it was due to the open web joist.

Otie Kilmer stated, it’s the TGI’s the thin bed is what their really, it fails quickly so theirs some controversy on that, that’s a good point.

Don Ward asked, do you know, approximately, is this approximately the slope of going into the garage?

Otie Kilmer stated, well yeah, oh, Don’s a civil engineer, so c’mon, let him have it. I hear you and one of the revised drawings that guys, we need number one a eight foot garage door you know just because of the bounce and secondly yes we need, but again until we get the height established from civil engineers its difficult to, but I understand that yes.

Attorney Altman asked, so this isn’t as built with the, with this ground as built as to the ground level when your ready to build a home right?

Otie Kilmer stated, no we need to get some more things, that’s not a, as near as we can tell, the existing, or the slab of the garage is about 8’6’’ below the road. We’re about 8’ down so we have to make some adjustments across the parking lot and then drop.

Don Ward stated, I didn’t realize it was that high out there.

Attorney Altman asked, how much problem would that be Don? How much problem will that be for them to get down there with…

Don Ward stated, well I don’t know, I can’t see, I haven’t figured out where they are. I don’t know where the building is going to be in relationship with the edge of the road.

Otie Kilmer stated, we don’t have the topography that’s going to work it out.

Perry McWilliams stated, to answer that questions, were about 50 foot off the road.

Don Ward stated, 50?

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah.

Don Ward stated, that, that makes it steep, 16% grade.

Attorney Altman stated, is that something that ought to be put on the proposed, proposal Don to see if it works out ahead of time.

Don Ward stated, it would be a good idea to know what it is.

Attorney Altman stated, because that isn’t something you just drive down in is what I hear you kind of saying. Or is that what you’re saying is it would be very difficult for somebody just to drive down in with the usual ordinary car.

Don Ward stated, well I think, I don’t know how they would do this, there are ways it can be done where you lower your platform down there where you’re parking and bring them in sideways and it gives you a lot longer slope to get down, but 50 feet that’s a 16% grade, and that wont fly very well, so your going to have to go down a level and your going to have to bring them in all along the front, you know what I mean, to get them down, you don’t want to be on a 16% grade because it wont give you any parking area.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess what I’m saying is from the boards point of view, do we need to see that figured out before we go further on this project. The next thing I wondered about is how they can handle the water.

Don Ward stated, well they show picking up the water in front of the building.

Attorney Altman stated, well but they got this 16% grade.

Mike Smolek stated, so does all this stuff go on their secondary?

Don Ward stated, that’s an engineering problem

Attorney Altman stated, well it does, except it, I’m trying to think, you know if you don’t look at it now, your preliminary approval is significant step, is what I’m saying.

Don Ward stated, yeah it is, it’s a lot.

Dave Scott asked, do we have enough information?

Don Ward stated, we probably do need a plot plan, really showing all that, where you’re going to take the water and how you’re going to build you parking area outside the building so that its useable.

Attorney Altman stated, so that that be something you’d recommend we have ahead of time.

Don Ward stated, we really should.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

Attorney Altman asked, do I hear a motion that we table this until we get that?

Jim Mann Jr. asked, what’s the timeframe between the preliminary and then going forward for the final, is that just a meeting away?

Don Ward stated, it depends on how fast they have it ready.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I mean, in your mind would it be a meeting away or two meetings away or three meetings away.

Don Ward stated, probably one meeting.

Larry Moser stated, we’d prefer not, do we prefer we can go with Otie and get it prepared as fast as possible and get it to you folks for approval.

Attorney Altman stated, but if we approve it now were sawing off a limb as far as we are without input. Or an amount of input Jim is what I’m trying to say.

Pat Mansley stated, hi everybody, my name is Pat Mansley, I live in Shafer Shores Subdivision. This PUD is going to be built 2 or 3 doors away from me. I’m not against progress, okay, I’m not against progress whatsoever. A couple things I think you have to take into consideration, number 1, is there any PUD’s on Shafer Lake right now because what your going to do is, once this one gets done, believe me, there’s going to be in the next 5 10 years, there going to be all over Shafer Lake and all I’m saying is lets set some guidelines so that we all play by the same rules, okay. Number 2, what about the environment, okay. There’s 9 units there planned, sewer system can handle it, no number of grinders, sure that can handle that, number of wells, one well per unit, two wells per unit. What about lake access? There’s going to be 9 units there. Is each one of those units going to have access to the lake like I do? Again, these are just some environments. There’s gas tanks on the property. Are those gas tanks going to be removed, is the soil beneath those gas tanks are those contaminated? Are there going to be some test made? Again, I’m not against this, all I like to do is, please, consider everything so that when the next one comes around, and they are, I’m telling you, there going to be up and down that lake before you know it. Historical, there’s a red barn on one of those lots. I’m told that red barn is 89 years old. Is that red barn going to be torn down, does it have to be moved? Is it a historical thing in nature, I don’t know. Okay. The PUD requires a home, I don’t know anything about PUD’s, I’m from up north, but I do know this, I’ve been a contractor in the City of Chicago, he doesn’t like to hear that. I’ve had my house for 20 years, alright. I’ve lived there full time for the last 8. I’m retired. I do know that the PUD, well lets put it this way, a town house or condo has to have an association. Homeowners association. Is the contractor going to be that association. Is the contractor or is the group of people going to put together monies to make sure that improvements area are going to be done? There’s going to be sufficient funds. Does the contractor put money up front? I don’t know how that works. Okay. But I think it’s just some things you have to consider. Also, there planning on building 9 of them, which is great. Are they going to build all 9 at one time? Do they, who determines how they build them and what happens if 3 of them are built and or I mean 9 of them are built 3 of them are sold and 6 of them sit empty. Are we going to have a situation like Bridgeview by Sportsman? You know. What about the Windjammer? That’s been 4 or 5 years in the works, yep. Sorry to bring it up, but. All I’m saying is there’s a lot of considerations here. I’m not against, I’m not against it, all I would like yous to do is consider a lot of these things so when the next PUD unit comes up, okay, there’s the paperwork, the groundwork has been laid and the next one goes smoother. Thank you for your time.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, thank you.

Pat Mansley stated, and then everyone wants to know I am active in the community. Okay. I’m the ex-president of Lake Shafer Welfare Association. I’m on the board of directors, I also ran for politics on the Democratic side. Okay, so I’m very concerned what goes on here. Thank You.

Attorney Altman asked, Diann, does this need a variance to put off 9 units on this ground.

Director Weaver stated, I thought that was the reason for the Planned Unit Development.

Attorney Altman stated, but if were not a PUD would it require a variance for 9 units on there.

Director Weaver stated, I have no idea, I have not figured that out.

Don Ward stated, it would.

Dennis Sterrett asked, what’s the parking requirement again for…

Director Weaver stated, 2 per unit.

Dennis Sterrett stated, 2.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, and you have that.

Members of the audience stated, yes.

Otie Kilmer stated, may I bring up a point on the preliminary of these things. I don’t think our intention was to not look at the grade, look at the elevation, the water storm detention run off, I just thought that we were looking at the preliminary as the concept for a PUD for this okay and we can come back with those kinds of drawings. One of the concerns might be to go out now and higher the surveyors and engineers and get all that stuff done and find out whether 9 units just doesn’t fly on the piece of property and we just went thru all this grading and elevation, I’m sure we can work that out, its not a problem. Your comments are well taken I just thought in the preliminary stages do we have to have all that info now?

Don Ward stated, but isn’t that part of the concept, I mean that’s, the preliminary is the concept of what your going to do.

Otie Kilmer stated, the concept is the land usage.

Don Ward stated, we need to know, I think, pretty much, what you are going to do now.

Otie Kilmer stated, true but..

Don Ward stated, not the structural part, not the, how many wells or any of that but we need to the know the outside particularly, how you’re get, how you’re going to sit your elevations around the building and stuff like that I think is part of the preliminary.

Otie Kilmer stated, is it, okay, I don’t know.

Don Ward stated, I don’t know what the rest of them think but that’s what I think. That’s what you have to follow once we approve it.

Otie Kilmer stated, we will.

Don Ward stated, we have to have something to follow now if we approve this and when you come back with the final and then, for the primary approval we have to know you either are going to change this a little bit or we have to know that stuff I think. I don’t know what you guys think, but the idea is to know as much as we can…

Attorney Altman stated, from a legal point of view I agree with Don.

Otie Kilmer stated, it means we do need have to then get a complete topography survey and then hire a civil engineer to do a whole storm detention drainage and everything.

Don Ward stated, well I don’t think you need all that, you need to know what elevation the road is and you need to know an idea of how you are going to get down to this elevation 8 ½ feet below that road if that’s what it is.

Otie Kilmer asked, but doesn’t that go thru…

Don Ward stated, and how your going to level out that parking area because you show it level from where they back the car out to a level area, it may not be level but, but it’s a good idea to have that figured out now.

Otie Kilmer stated, but isn’t there another meeting or…

Perry McWilliams stated, wouldn’t that go to the drainage board I mean be a part of that then I mean showing that topography.

Don Ward stated, well the drainage, the drainage is part of it. I mean that’s that’s…

Attorney Altman stated, but this board decides, approves the concept and Don’s saying we don’t have the concept yet.

Don Ward stated, we don’t have it all, we have a lot of it but..

Perry McWilliams stated, I mean, there, there is the concept there, I mean.

Attorney Altman stated, you’ve got 9 buildings.

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah.

Attorney Altman stated, and you got that, but you don’t have how you are going to get down there.

Perry McWilliams stated, well we show well we show how we are going to get down there, Don’s wanting to know elevations you know as far as the topography and I don’t, we don’t have the topography on that, but that, but that concept is not going to change from this month to next month, that will be the same.

Attorney Altman stated, we’ve heard that before, we’ve seen many…

Perry McWilliams stated, well maybe you’ve heard that before but not from me. I mean, we have at least done our homework up to this point pretty good, maybe it’s not 100% right now, so.

Attorney Altman stated, we’re just saying come back with 100%.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay.

Jeff Nagel stated, Jeff Nagel with Regal Development. One thing that I’ve heard and we're concerned about too is that it is done right and it is followed thru. That’s why here now and that’s why we have the engineer here and the sales person and the builder and myself because all your concerns are exactly, and that was the reason why we put it off 1 meeting because we wanted to make sure it was something we can follow thru. If you guys say were okay with the concept, we’ll do whatever it takes with the engineering and stuff to make it work because we don’t want to be one of those other sites and were not going to be where its half way done, its not. And that’s why we have the right people in place to make sure that it does get done correctly. But we want it to come to you to make sure that this was the concept that you felt like we felt that is going to be better for the community and that it is going to be done and we are committed to do it right and that’s why the stone things and some of the stuff that were doing it is going to be a nice unit and we’re committed to making it that way.

Mike Smolek asked, are you guys going to put boat lifts or boat docks out there for them.

Jeff Nagel stated, we have talked to the, there is already boat lifts and boat docks and we have been talking to the committee about that and we are getting in line with them for that, and they said that we first needed to get okayed by you guys and then come back and see us is what they said. And if you have any other questions I’ll be happy to, you know, but my biggest point that I wanted to make is we are committed to make sure this happens and this is the reason why we’ve taken the time and it was my decision to go forward now to make sure if there was any real problems that we needed to address to make sure that we get everything right for the next time, but its important for us to know that if you agree with the concept then we can go forward and make sure that we get everything done right.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, what I’m hearing right now is that a part of that concept is how are you going to get from the road to your planned buildings?

Jeff Nagel stated, I think when you see the bigger drawings that we have, we have some bigger drawings and that was addressed somewhat. And we don’t have the bigger drawings with us right now and Otie and my partner’s also a engineer too and him and Otie has been talking and we really feel that we can work that out and were also committed to working it out if it takes it, so you know. You’re right 16% grade, you don’t want a 16% grade that’s for sure. But as it was first looked at it was told to us that it could be worked out and I understand you want to see it worked out, but if we can work that out we need to know if the concept is okay with you guys too.

Don Ward stated, well with 9 units you’re going to have a lot of people in and out during the day, you know. There’s going to be several trips in and out off and on that road and that’s a hot path in the summertime.

Jeff Nagel stated, yeah it is but it should have enough room for entry and everything for that and it’s a consideration we can take up also you know to make sure it is safe that they are going to be mostly vacation homes so its not going to of course and they’re only here on weekends when you need the people the least.

Attorney Altman stated, right, we’ve heard that before. It will be full time directly. That’s what everything else is. Starts out part time and goes to full time.

Jeff Nagel stated, well that’s not a bad thing for the community though because then you got all the food that everybody buys and …

Attorney Altman stated, we have all the traffic all the time.

Jeff Nagel stated, oh yeah, yes, yes, yes.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, I’m not understanding Diann this preliminary thing, I mean, explain to me preliminary verses them coming back for another approval, what is involved here, to me right now it doesn’t make me any difference whether you approve it or don’t approve it. The big difference to me right now is if you approve the preliminary and then you come back and we don’t like their steep bank coming down in or whatever can we stop it.

Director Weaver stated, I think that’s a better question for Attorney Altman.

Attorney Altman stated, no, no. Excuse me, I think you have some stop there but the real stop is today at preliminary approval. Excuse me, let me answer it please.

Jeff Nagel, I apologize.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, later on there is some stop involved but the big approval is the preliminary and the, I hear the slope in all and visibility getting in and out of there and drainage I don’t think is probably a big problem but I don’t know how their going thru that 9 units there that wall so to speak to get it out there but I bet they can, they plan it, but I think the big question I hear Don talking about, Don Ward, is how they are going to get down that 16% slope for 9 units, 9 people.

Don Ward stated, yeah.

Attorney Altman stated, and still be safe getting on and off a very busy road, county road.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, can we approve it contingent upon proper engineering analysis of the egress.

Attorney Altman stated, you can, but you saw off a limb. You lose some stop is what I’m saying, okay.

Mike Smolek stated, the grinder pumps and stuff, I’m assuming, are what these will be on. Is that correct?

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah Mike.

Mike Smolek asked, the front of that is going to be all concrete or not concrete or where we took, I guess, you probably don’t have the permits to do all that stuff because your waiting on this permit so on and so forth.

Perry McWilliams stated, exactly.

Mike Smolek asked, can you give me an idea of where you’re going to put that on the location of like this map.

Perry McWilliams stated, you mean the grinders?

Mike Smolek stated, yeah.

Perry McWilliams stated, I haven’t spoken to the…

Attorney Altman stated, come talk to the mic please Perry, I’m sorry, it just doesn’t pick up.

Perry McWilliams stated, that’s fine, no, no, that’s fine, no I haven’t spoken to Mike Dougherty on that Mike, but you know we really don’t want it, have to put them were pretty limited on them, on the back which is going to be West Shafer Drive, you know, I cant envision those being out there more than likely its going to be more for the lakeside and thru there I would think as far as your accessing them and getting to them. I don’t think its going to be on the West Shafer side on that, but I haven’t spoke to Mike Dougherty in regards to that but it just seems to me as far as a functionality part that if you are going to have a concrete parking lot there that those things would be in the grass that’s towards the lake. That’s my thoughts.

Gerald Cartmell asked, wells, there going to be 9 wells? Is that true?

Perry McWilliams stated, no, their wont be 9 wells. I mean, we can do a community well, you know, to service that, okay, so we don’t have to be punching in 9 individual wells there. We can go to a constant well system, a pressure system for that and cause even for the public you can do, as long as it’s less than 12 you’re fine. So it’s not even a public well system then, but yeah, go to the constant pressure system and that will service those.

Dave Scott stated, the gentlemen back here asked a question and I’m curious myself what about the well maintenance, driveway maintenance, maintenance on the, do we need to know that? How they’re going to take care of this afterwards.

Perry McWilliams stated, typically, yeah Dave, typically a project like this, you know, actually we’re doing, I’m doing one right now down on another lake in Waveland right now and the project down there is we set up what’s called a HOA which is a Home Owners Association, okay, and the Contractor isn’t around to service that. Okay. That is set up okay so monthly fees with all the residences there you know goes to this association okay.

Dave Scott stated, they appoint a leader and …

Perry McWilliams stated, absolutely, so that is all done and that takes care of all the mowing and any of the maintenance involved and what’s going on there, so it doesn’t come back to a building contract or anything like that.

Dave Scott stated, snow removal.

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah, exactly, that’s all part of that, grass cutting, it’s all home owners association.

Greg Bossaer stated, well and speaking of grass, do you have landscaping, green space plan also.

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah, Otie, do you want to discuss the Green Space and what you have there on that.

Otie Kilmer stated, yeah, those drawings are not updated. Basically where the driveway’s are and the parking that is the concrete, the rest of it is green space, down each landing coming off of the each unit there’s a small green space and then anywhere we’re not driving basically is all the green space. We have like a buffer yard 10 feet on the closest side to the south green space and then about 19 feet on the north side, so all the way around.

Perry McWilliams asked, is there a state requirement on that, that you have to adhere to on green space?

Otie Kilmer stated, no, no it’s a local community. And, somebody have another large drawing, I didn’t bring it with me unfortunately. We are over 52% landscaping, building coverage is less than 20 something percent, I cant, off the top of my head, I ran the numbers on it to look at it when we get to the point of storm detention and run off what we’d be dealing with. But most PUD’s and things like that, 50 % is a good number to get the landscaping up there.

Dave Scott stated, I guess I’m going to ask the board, does anybody see anything wrong with the concept outside these other problems of what are you doing here.

Mike Smolek asked, is 22 feet wide enough there?

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, well I guess part of that concept is getting in and out of it.

Dave Scott stated, yeah.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, that’s my opinion.

Otie Kilmer stated, right, and I agree.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, the buildings kind of conceptual to me, the building is a great idea but still part of that concept is how do you get in and out of it.

Perry McWilliams stated, well we can, again, we were saying, we were taking some ground out, we could leave some in, we don’t know exactly where the benchmark is set. We know it can be done. I don’t think it’s that difficult of a situation, its just no, we don’t have it established right now. We’re looking at the footprint, we know that we will have to adjust it and make it work and handle the storm detention run off and the slopes and getting in and out and things like that.

Dave Scott stated, well I guess the reason I asked the question was I knew there was a problem with coming in and out and everything else, I just want to try to touch on everything while he’s here so next time he comes he can get approval.

Perry McWilliams stated, coming in and out it’s a 24 foot access.

Dave Scott stated, well yeah, I mean everything we’ve talked about up to this point needs to be addressed, I think that’s the general consensus. I’ve, if you get that taken care of, is there anything else in this development that doesn’t look …

Attorney Altman stated, Diann does the size of the sign planned meet the specs of the ordinance.

Director Weaver stated, well the only ones we have right now is the size that the board was given. We were not supplied a larger set, which I thought we were going to have a set here for us tonight.

Perry McWilliams stated, yes we do, we do have that set.

Director Weaver stated, we need to submit that set into the file.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that seeing that would help figure out the concept. All the way around and I guess Diann on this amount of ground how many living quarters would be allowed in that much acreage? What’s it zoned, if you figured it out.

Director Weaver stated, well its zoned B-2.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand.

Director Weaver stated, so that, I mean, residences are not allowed in a B-2 zoning.

Attorney Altman stated, so it has to be rezoned.

Director Weaver stated, so I really can’t give that comparison.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, but it does have from what I’ve calculated from the subdivision plat it has 34,664 square feet within the 2 lots.

Attorney Altman stated, 34 divided by 9 would be 4000 square feet.

Director Weaver stated, not quite.

Attorney Altman stated, not quite the 4000 square foot. That would be the equivalent of R-4.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, it doesn’t even hit the scales.

Attorney Altman stated, R-3. I’m just again, talking conceptually because this matters.

Director Weaver stated, an R-2 requires 5000 square feet per unit. I know it doesn’t match an R-2.

Dave Scott stated, and since it’s a flood plain will he need a height variance or no? Does a PUD take it out of that restriction.

Attorney Altman stated, it wouldn’t necessarily.

Director Weaver stated, no.

Attorney Altman stated, it wouldn’t necessarily. That usually is how if a part of it is flooded and this board may in fact vary it if it needed a variance. Okay, I agree that we don’t have anything that says this is how high they are going to be. There just proposing it and that is part of the concept. When it does also. We just got to use the ordinance as the yardstick to measure it by too.

Director Weaver stated, well Jerry and answer to your question. An R-4 requires 2500 square feet per unit. That’s a mobile home park. It doesn’t meet any requirements

Perry McWilliams stated, it’s a PUD.

Attorney Altman stated, well true, but that’s still part of this concept and you proposed 9 and we can say well why not 6, you know, if you know what I mean and give people more square footage. That’s part of the concept.

Perry McWilliams asked, could you not build a quad or duplex or a triplex, oh you can’t build in the B zone, yeah. I was going to say you could pull it apart and build 3 triplexes but anyway. I don’t know the zoning.

Attorney Altman stated, well you’re talking the concepts and I can tell you that the board can have the concept that 6 units would be plenty in there or not you know just thinking conceptually on this.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, did you give them a copy of this list?

Dennis Sterrett asked, what’s this zoned now Dave?

Dave Scott stated, B-2.

Dennis Sterrett stated, B-2.

Dave Scott stated, because it says topography, utility service, land usage, land ownership.

Director Weaver stated, yes, they did purchase the copy of the ordinance for that.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, what do you think Don? You still thinking of the driveway?

Don Ward stated, well, yeah. I question they can get down. I’m not saying they can’t, but I don’t see an easy way.

Attorney Altman stated, I’d like to see that before we have it rezoned.

Don Ward stated, it shows 40 feet from what apparently is the center line of the road but I’m not sure of that. Down to a line … I don’t know where it is.

Perry McWilliams stated, it was 40 feet plus 10 feet to the narrowest and were getting the larger prints now to the narrowest point of that one building that comes the closest to the road and at one point it was something like 62 feet because it the way it…

Don Ward asked, that’s the corner of the building right?

Perry McWilliams stated, right, right, so the narrowest corner was, and the larger prints are coming, I apologize for not having them but, so that would be the minimum amount we have I think it was 52 feet wasn’t it.

Otie Kilmer stated, that’s the right of way line, not the center line of Shafer Road.

Attorney Altman stated, but we always, so how far are you from the property line?

Otie Kilmer stated, that is the property line.

Larry Moser stated, that is the property line.

Perry McWilliams stated, that’s the property line, the center line of the road is on the whatever the width of the road is.

Otie Kilmer stated, well it’s probably about a 20 foot road and it should be a 40 foot right-of-way. So you would gain 20 more, you would gain 10 more feet.

Don Ward stated, you’re 50 feet from the edge of that pavement to that line, that’s not very much. Have you thought about moving towards the lake?

Perry McWilliams stated, yes, and part of that has to do with the, how much room do we have for the flood zone. We have some room to move to the lake and obviously that wouldn’t be a problem for us to do it as long as its not a problem for the flood plain which I don’t think it would be and then obviously it we can keep as much greenery to the lake as possible is good but its got to be a working concept too otherwise it doesn’t matter how much lake frontage we have if it doesn’t work, so.

Don Ward stated, I don’t know where the lake is unless that line, that’s not the lake line, that’s the property line right.

Director Weaver stated, Don I have a primary plat from where this subdivision was platted if that would help you at all.

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah that bigger one might help.

Director Weaver stated, Don.

Don Ward stated, pardon.

Director Weaver stated, would that help?

Members of the Board and Audience speaking.

Attorney Altman stated, Don, you get us off of lead from square 1. Is it you’re considerate that we move, ought to have this down on plans before we proceed?

Don Ward stated, yes it is.

Attorney Altman stated, is that a motion?

Don Ward stated, yes.

Perry McWilliams stated, could we look at the larger ones.

Attorney Altman stated, could we have, do we have a second for that.

Don Ward stated, table it until we get a plot plan.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, do we have a second?

Bob Thomas stated, I’ll second.

Don Ward stated, that shows how were going to come off the road and how you’re going to park the cars.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, all in favor raise your right hand. Okay, were tabling it until we get more, showing how it will fit in there.

Attorney Altman stated, Don you going to vote for it. Raise your right hand if you’re going to vote for it. Okay, alright.

Don Ward stated, I can’t hear worth a darn.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s what I though, that’s why I said it louder. Okay, do you understand what we need?

Perry McWilliams stated, I do understand, the question that I have is that of course, again, we are, we are, really committed to making this happen and we’d like to move forward on a lot of these to speed things up. I guess I’m sorry we weren’t prepared for that because I thought we needed to get the okay for the concept and then come back with all the engineering.

Attorney Altman stated, this is more of an engineering…

Perry McWilliams stated, and so I rushed it and I rushed it because…

Don Ward stated, once we approve this preliminary you can’t change, everything put together can’t change more than 10%. So you’re held tight so you need to know in my opinion as much as we do. It’s in your best interest.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, and we want to know its going to fit in there and still be able to get up over it.

Perry McWilliams stated, right, right, and all we were saying was if it all fit and we could make everything work common sense wise and engineering wise that we would be able to make the, because we want to go with common sense in what works for everybody too and that’s what I guess I’m hearing too.

Don Ward stated, that’s what we want to.

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah and our big thing is that we just wanted to know that the concept is accepted will do whatever it takes to make it work.

Attorney Altman stated, bring it back and come see Diann ahead of time if you’re interested.

Don Ward stated, we’re not, we don’t want to slow you down.

Perry McWilliams stated, I think the bigger plans are here.

Don Ward stated, we need to know exactly what you are going to do.

Dave Scott asked, is there 2 parking spots in front of the buildings?

Perry McWilliams stated, there’s 1 and then theirs 2 on each end.

Otie Kilmer stated, there’s 1 outside each building and 1 inside garage.

Dave Scott stated, oh that’s where you get 2, okay.

Perry McWilliams stated, and on the bigger plans that hopefully are in there way in, it shows the parking inside.

Attorney Altman stated, we’re ready to go on to the rest of our agenda.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, could I ask something please.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, would you be, and I’m sure your, I have a feeling your answer is going to be yes, but would you be open to having these gentlemen come in, make a specific appointment and go thru some of the dynamics of what we’ve discussed, they really need to zero in on so when they come back next time that they’ve got their ducks in the pond of what we’re really requesting they have so we can move forward and that they can move forward you know.

Director Weaver stated, they have been into the office many times previously and yes I have no problem with that, I think what they need to do though is let us get the minutes together so we can have a list ready for them.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, okay. Because I’ve heard several things that the board seems to have concerns about.

Director Weaver stated, right I agree.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, and out of courtesy to make sure that they know what they need to do.

Members of the board speaking.

Attorney Altman stated, anything else?


Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, moving on under business. Art Anderson with Twin Lakes Regional Sewer District. Is Art here?

Someone stated, nope.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, okay, he’s not here. What’s the update on the Newkirk and VanDeWalle?

Director Weaver stated, I mailed a letter to Carol VanDeWalle on, I’ll give you the date here, on August 29th, we mailed that, I have been provided a new address for her so we mailed that certified mail to her old address and the new address. She did receive it at the old address and signed for the letter on September 1st. And I have not heard a word from her, so that’s where it stands. I did get information on filing this small court, or small claims court. We can put our court fees as part of that claim.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, does anyone want to pursue that? VanDeWalle. Newkirk and VanDeWalle thru small claims court on her fine. She did sign that she received the letter.

Don Ward asked, this is on the doggy?

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, yep.

Don Ward asked, 2600 is it?

Director Weaver stated, no it was $500.00 but it’s been accruing $50.00 a month since May 19th.

Dave Scott asked, are they gone?

Director Weaver stated, the dogs are gone. Well, as far as I’m aware the dogs are gone, and she’s relocated in Pulaski County.

Don Ward asked, how are we going to fine people who don’t have any money.

Attorney Altman stated, it could be a real good deterrent for her coming back.

Director Weaver stated, she’s selling dogs. So she may be making money from the dogs. She told me herself that she sells dogs.

Bob Thomas stated, banks don’t care if you don’t have money if you don’t make your payments. We’re not a bank so I say we go after her.

Attorney Altman stated, certainly. Actually with small claims we don’t pay court costs so we just, Diann can just go up and file them.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, he can file his judgment?

Attorney Altman stated, yep, and just like anybody else in small claims. So that it…

Don Ward stated, well its not going to get any smaller if she doesn’t pay it, so…

Director Weaver stated, and I think if we need, were going to act on this, I’ve been told she is considering relocating one more time so, I don’t know if we want to…

Don Ward stated, you mean outside of White County.

Director Weaver stated, she’s already out of White County. Out of the state of Indiana.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I make a motion that we give Diann the permission to go up and file small claims for this.

Don Ward stated, I second.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, second. All in favor raise your right hand. Unanimous.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, I think that was it on business other than Diann informed me that we had a little problem with the recorder last time.

Director Weaver stated, evidentially we had a bad tape in the recorder and we got absolutely nothing. The machine here. Hopefully we’re getting the meeting tonight, so I’ve given you a copy of what we’ve gathered so far from the minutes, but boy I sure would like some help on this.

Attorney Altman stated, I’ve been working on it but you guys were here and it sure helps if you write down, like Diann suggested.

Director Weaver stated, yeah if you could jot some things down for us and give it to me.

Mike Smolek stated, should we, who invested in the new recorder, that thing is older than I am.

Director Weaver stated, it wasn’t the recorder, it was the tape. Because we tried the same tape today and it does not work. We put this tape in and it worked fine, so it was the tape.

Dennis Sterrett stated, actually we have a recorder over there.

Director Weaver stated, yeah, but we don’t want to use that.

Dennis Sterrett stated, we don’t?

Director Weaver stated, no, and the reason being, with us typing our minutes word for word, we cant hook up a foot pedal to the computer. So that makes it very difficult for the girls. If you’re not doing it word for word it would work fine, but it makes it extremely difficult for the girls. So.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, so you want everybody to jot down notes and give them back to you or.

Director Weaver stated, if you would please and then we can get them ready and have them on the agenda for next time.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, if you remember anything that happened last time jot them down.

Director Weaver stated, I did want to let you know I’ve not heard anymore information on our new ordinance. I don’t know if you guys have gotten that reviewed or if you still have input please go ahead and get that to me to get it to them.

Members of the board discussed the trip to the wind farm in Bloomington, Illinois.

Pat Mansley asked, regarding the PUD and the next time they have to be here, will that be updated on that sign out in front of the building.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, it will be back on the agenda right.

Pat Mansley stated, no, sir, sir, the sign in front of the building that they had. Right now they have a sign advertising that there is a meeting.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, oh this thing here.

Director Weaver stated, the sign that’s posted on the property.

Pat Mansley, yeah, that’s correct.

Director Weaver stated, the sign that’s posted on the property.

Bob Thomas stated, someone brought a sign back tonight, is that it.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know, I didn’t know anyone brought 1 one back.

Bob Thomas stated, I saw somebody carry a sign in.

Director Weaver stated, okay, I didn’t see it Bob, so I don’t know.

Bob Thomas stated, it’s leaning right there I believe.

Director Weaver stated, if it is not next month we will probably I would think most likely send out notices again on it. Did you get a notice on it this time?

Pat Mansley stated, no, no.

Attorney Altman stated, spread the word.

Director Weaver stated, you are more than welcome to call the office and check up on it also, but I can’t promise you I will get that sign changed but I will try to get it done.

Pat Mansley stated, I’m just wondering how would we be notified.

Director Weaver stated, feel free to contact my office.

Pat Mansley stated, thank you.

Members of the board finished discussing the wind farm.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger asked, any other business gentlemen?

Director Weaver asked, any updates on our lawsuits?

Attorney Altman stated, oh, we have on the Freeman lawsuit. Thank you for reminding me. I’ve been bugging Kathy Russell rentals for the last person that this Freeman Subdivision south of town here for that new member here, I think your only one, it’s about a 30 lot subdivision, rural subdivision south of town and a little bit west and basically John Freeman subdivided it and then didn’t do anything with it really is what it amounts too. And then we can stand that and would as long as we have a letter of credit to his improvements and when that got bounced we filed suit against he and his bonding company, bank, okay, federal credit, okay. And it’s been setting there and they have tried to pass it along to about 3 different people who said they were going to put the subdivision in. I think it’s possible to really do that there. And the very last one is Kathy Russell Rentals, Inc. Corporation out of Lafayette we filed suit against them also because they bought it and anyway we have a pre-trial set on that because what were what the board has basically said to me as far as what I'm supposed to do as a lawyer if he’ll put the subdivision in that’s okay and put it in right the way the specs are that’s okay they just don’t dissolve the subdivision. And that’s where I’m moving to, but that’s in October I think it is.

Director Weaver stated, I haven’t been given that date.

Attorney Altman stated, and hopefully that will either get somebody you know what or off the pot. So, that is something, I’m trying to think.

Director Weaver asked, you do know that date?

Attorney Altman stated, I do know that date, but I don’t have it in my mind.

Director Weaver stated, I tried to call your office today to find that out.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, because I got the order today, and I think that’s the only thing I can think of. Okay.

Director Weaver stated, that’s all I have.

Don Ward stated, we’ve got a problem over in east Monticello, Earl Hornback built a subdivision and he put a road on the south side of it. The road is against old existing property, which then changes their setback line from being just a straight lot to a corner lot. So it changes from what 8 feet to 32 feet or something like that. This is kind of unfair. And we need to look at it for the future. If somebody’s going to build a road next to somebody else’s property then that person should be notified expressly what’s going to happen so that they can come in and fight it. And they should fight it, they’d be crazy if they don’t, unless they have plenty of land and it don’t matter. But this is a case where they don’t have much land, its going to eat up half the lot. But we don’t have any way to go about changing it, right, other than going thru the BZA.

Dennis Sterrett asked, so they did have a sideline and now they have a front line?

Don Ward stated, yeah, now they got a front line, they’re a corner lot now. Which they didn’t know when they brought the property.

Director Weaver stated, well but the subdivision was done prior to these people owning the lot.

Don Ward asked, but still. They didn’t know and I doubt the people knew that were notified.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know.

Don Ward stated, that’s what I’m saying. If were going to notify people about that we need to make it expressed you know explicit you know that this is what’s going to happen to you if that road goes in.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, that or we need to make them put the road in or take it …

Don Ward stated, or move the road out away from them.

Vice President Dave Rosenbarger stated, make them have a setback from a road against a private lot.

Don Ward stated, that allows a sub-divider to affect other people’s property.

Director Weaver stated, we need to address it somehow I agree that.

Mike Smolek stated, yeah because when you got, when he puts that road in you got utility setbacks and everything else and …

Director Weaver stated, and this isn’t a subdivision that’s been done recently, it’s been years ago. This just came up this issue.

Mike Smolek stated, well it actually came up when that other guys case, that lane that he had, they were going to combine the 2 to make the road out of, but if he didn’t want to combine his part he was going to combine it regardless because that setback still would fall on the side.

Attorney Altman stated, it does affect.

Mike Smolek stated, on that one case a couple months ago where they had that road they were driving around the fence and driving, using his road, it’s kind of the same scenario. Regardless if he wanted to have that setback or not he was going to have it because he was putting his road right on that line.

Don Ward stated, this is similar but not quite the same.

Mike Smolek stated, and they weren’t developed yet, whereas this is and …

Don Ward stated, what happens is you got a sub-divider who really can affect other people’s properties and that shouldn’t be allowed unless they agree to it. If they don’t mind that’s fine, but I don’t think they should, and I think we should watch for that in the future. If that happens make sure to make a point to straighten it out.


Greg Bossaer made a motion to adjourn.

Dennis Sterrett seconded the motion.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission