Get Adobe Flash player


The White County Area Plan Commission met Tuesday, October 09, 2007, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Charles Anderson, Gerald Cartmell, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, Greg Bossaer, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Joseph Maxson, Betty Abbott, Dorothy Maxson, Cindy Viney, Pat Mazgaj, C.R. Mellon, W. Otie Kilmer, Perry McWilliams, Walt Owens, Larry Moser (Real Estate Network), Tim Shaffer, Charles Roberts, and Nancy Downey.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Don Ward made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the August 13, 2007 and September 10, 2007 meeting. Motion was seconded by Jim Mann Jr. and carried unanimously.


#943 Walter E. & Patricia J. Owens; The property is located on Lot 7 in Fowler Addition, in the Town of Wolcott at 405 W. US Highway 24.

Violation: This structure was converted back to a residence without proper zoning or a building permit.

Request: They are requesting to rezone from B-1 to R-1.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you guys want to talk about the violation first? We didn’t impose a fine on them but they came in… Do we have anybody here representing their request? Do we got Walter or Patricia?

Walter Owens stated, yes, Walt, Walt Owens.

President Charles Anderson, Walt Owens. But he came in as soon as you found out you had a violation, you came in to talk to her.

Walt Owens stated, yeah, we was putting the roof on it, we took the walls out about 4 years ago to make a beauty shop out of it and I put the 2 walls back up that made the 2 bedrooms. Never thought about a building permit. It’s going now to residential permanently. It’ll never be a business at least not while I own it. So.

President Charles Anderson stated, but you’re your, you want to bring it back to a residence or you going to sell that or you going to?

Walt Owens stated, it’s for sale, it’s for sale, but the sale fell thru so now it’s for rent.

President Charles Anderson asked, the Commissioners have any questions about that for him? I don’t think he realized that he needed to bring it back to.

Walt Owens stated, I just didn’t think of a building permit when I, because I put the 2 walls back up that we took out to make it a beauty shop. We made it 1 big room.

President Charles Anderson asked, the Commissioners have anything on a fine on that? Do you want to discuss a fine or just…

Don Ward stated, well he didn’t know.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah I think he knew but he just didn’t worry about it.

Walt Owens stated, yeah I knew I should have had a permit but I just didn’t get one because I didn’t think I’d, I just spaced it to be honest with you. I’ve done a lot of buildings so I know I’d have to have a permit’s I mean.

Don Ward stated, so you did know it.

Walt Owens stated, well, yeah, I don’t want to claim ignorance because I just didn’t think that I would need, never paid any attention, I just put the walls up.

President Charles Anderson stated, as soon as you thought about it you came in and talked to Diann.

Walt Owens stated, well, we came over there, well we’re selling it, I was selling it and …

Director Weaver stated, yeah, he’s selling it. When was it that it was converted? That was not recently right.

Walt Owens stated, last fall. But I only had somebody in it for a couple months. I didn’t even realize that it was commercial until we came over and I was selling it and the lending institution figured out it was still zoned B-1 instead of R-1 and I couldn’t sell it so that’s when I realized okay, now we got a problem.

President Charles Anderson stated, anybody else, commissioners have a question about that.

Walt Owens stated, whatever you want to do.

Don Ward stated, a hundred dollar fine?

President Charles Anderson asked, any other suggestions, from the commissioners?

Gerald Cartmell stated, I thought the standing thing was 500 bucks.

Director Weaver stated, the way your policy is written is that it’s starts at $500.00. The board can raise or lower that. I don’t care what everybody wants to do but I just thought that’s what it was.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other thoughts on this? Do you want to make a motion then?

Jim Mann Jr. asked, so the standard is 500?

Director Weaver stated, $500.00 that’s the way the policy is written.

Don Ward stated, I’ll make a motion that the fine be lowered to $100.00. Anybody want to change it?

President Charles Anderson asked, any seconds on that?

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I would second that.

President Charles Anderson stated, all in favor of the $100.00 fine for the violation raise your right hand. Opposed. And we’ve got 1 opposed and 1,2,3, did somebody not vote?

Attorney Altman stated, I think they all voted.

President Charles Anderson stated, oh, so you got 6 to 1. That would be a fine imposed of $100.00. So we will go right to the request that you’re requesting to rezone from B-1 to R-1. Mr. Owens is here representing that request. Commissioners have any questions about that? We know why he’s going to do it. Anybody in the audience have any problems or any questions about the re-zonings? If not, I’d say lets go ahead and vote on it. We got a ballot anywhere?

Attorney Altman stated, I’m thinking, looking at something else you’re right, wake me up.

Don Ward asked, what’s across the highway from this?

Walt Owens stated, the old hotel. Now apartment complexes. Or apartments, like 5 of them. And 1 house down is the veterinary office they remolded.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the City of Wolcott Town Board for their action.


#318 Dorothy Maxson; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Abbott Subdivision on 0.417 of an acre, Part SE SW 28-27-3 in the City of Monticello at 803 N. Third Street.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing that request?

Joe Maxson stated, I am, Joe Maxson.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have any questions in the audience about that request at all? Do the Commissioners have any questions about that request? She had gone and gotten a variance hadn’t she?

Director Weaver stated, yeah, she did get her variance approved.

President Charles Anderson stated, approved on that.

Director Weaver stated, and that, the variance is just for lot 2. It does not affect lot 1. Lot 1 will have the standard setbacks.

President Charles Anderson stated, on the primary we don’t need it but the secondary we need the drainage on this.

Director Weaver stated, right, they have applied for a waiver to the drainage board, it goes to the meeting Monday, right.

Dennis Sterrett stated, right.

Director Weaver stated, Monday’s meeting, but it has not been approved or acted on as of this time.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay, right now we’re just voting on the primary though. Do the Commissioners have any questions about the request at all?

Don Ward stated, well I got a comment and that is that the 3rd Street is 40 feet and we don’t do subdivisions unless we have a 50 foot street so we’d have to have you donate 5 lineal feet more to make 25 feet on your half. So that eventually it could become a 50 foot street. Now that, you only have a 6 foot from your existing street line to the house which that alone will leave you 1 foot, however if you had a fire you couldn’t rebuild that anyway without moving back, so I don’t think that really affects that that much. So we’d have to have a commitment that you’d give us that additional 5 feet.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you understand that?

Joe Maxson stated, mm hmm.

President Charles Anderson stated, and we can do that and still pass this primary approval. How about on the other? Is there another house on this lot too?

Joe Maxson stated, there was a house on Lot 1.

Director Weaver stated, Lot 2.

President Charles Anderson stated, that’s the one you got the variance on too. So they would have to build on the center of the lot anyway if it burnt down, they couldn’t rebuild on it, the 50% right. Any other questions? Let’s go ahead and vote. You might want to go ahead and put that on there that contingent on 5 foot access on the right away.

President Charles Anderson asked, can we do secondary contingent that they do that and that they have the drainage?

Members of the Board are talking.

President Charles Anderson stated, well got a little problem on the secondary approval on this because we don’t have the drainage and the 5 foot should be on that plat. If you want to go ahead and try to pass this contingent that the drainage passes and …

Don Ward stated, well it would have to be subject to approval of that. We could do that.

President Charles Anderson stated, so you’ll go ahead and you can either agree or disagree with going ahead on the secondary contingent that the drainage is waived and that they have the 5 foot.

Don Ward stated, nothing wrong with that.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I don’t have a problem with it, I mean, Diann will, when it gets to Diann’s office with all that on it then it will be approved right?

President Charles Anderson stated, so we can go ahead with the secondary then and take care of that for you too so that way you can get, you want to get that approval before you start building though, but you can do that fairly fast, so.

Attorney Altman stated, the balloting on Primary Ballot on application number 318, conditions were that 5 foot on the North, of the North right away on Third Street should be donated for the subdivision lots 1 and 2 provided 25 foot runway, right-of-way, excuse me, and that the drainage board, well that would be on the primary, and based on that it was approved 7 to 0, those requirements.

The Primary Approval for a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Abbott Subdivision was approved by a vote of 7 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

Attorney Altman stated, and if you’re willing to proceed on the secondary subjects to those conditions you need to write them in also so that, so that we have a plat that is properly approved and reviewed. I’d sure put both of them on there just so everything’s protected.

Don Ward asked, what are the other conditions, I only have 2?

Attorney Altman stated, I think that’s only 2. That was a 2 right?

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah it was 5 foot and then subject to the drainage board. Drainage waiver.

President Charles Anderson stated, so the secondary plat has to be amended and brought back into her after the approval has been, well amended anyway if it gets approval from the drainage board.

Dave Scott stated, this 5 foot that he gives up now, that’s going to change his building lines is that correct or no?

Director Weaver stated, yes it will.

Dave Scott stated, just so you know if you ever go to build, that building line on that 1/3, it will be 5 foot back.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Abbott Subdivision was approved by a vote of 7 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met and the following conditions is that the drainage board approval be met or obtained or waived and the 5 foot access easement along 3rd Street be shown on the secondary plat. You need to get that to us.


#07-7 Regal Development; Requesting Primary approval of a Planned Unit Development to be known as Shafer Shores Town Homes on Lot Numbers 7 & 8 in Shafer Shores Part 2. The property is located North of Monticello at 4599 N. West Shafer Drive and 4625 N. West Shafer Drive. Tabled from September 10, 2007.

President Charles Anderson stated, and there are some things the Commission wanted to add to their plat or primary approval.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, Charlie I just need to at this point just indicate to the board and the audience that I am going to excuse myself into the audience and I’m just citing a rule in the zoning book, its on page 61, having to do with voting if for some reason there might be a direct or indirect interest in the activity that is being presented to the board. So because of that I am going to excuse myself out in the audience. I just wanted to go on the record with that.

Attorney Altman stated, thank you.

Don Ward stated, were going to dock your pay.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, that’s okay. That’s alright.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have somebody here representing this request?

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah, actually we have several representing this evening, I’m Perry McWilliams, local builder here Monticello. John Hudack, John is actually Regal Development, he’s the investor. Larry Moser, local realtor who is hopefully going to sell these things. And then our architect, Otie Kilmer from Purdue University. Right now just a mouth piece guys, any questions can be directed to any one of us here.

Don Ward stated, wait, we’re out of line. Its Regal Development’s next.

President Charles Anderson asked, is this Regal?

Director Weaver stated, yeah.

President Charles Anderson stated, we’re in line.

Don Ward stated, okay, Shafer Shores, alright. Sorry Sir.

Perry McWilliams stated, that’s okay, that’s alright. Well maybe the last one didn’t work well for us, last meeting, so we thought maybe a different name might help, so you know, you’re alright. If we’re turned down, we come back next month with a different name. So, yeah.

President Charles Anderson stated, so going along with Regal Development. The Commissioners had some questions that they wanted to be brought back before they, the primary approval would be approved on that. Anyone want to, I wasn’t here at that last meeting. I kind of know what you’re basically asking. Anybody on the board want to state any questions that you have with the new plans that they showed you?

Don Ward stated, well Denny and I met with them last Tuesday, last Wednesday, afternoon, and we had a question about the ability to get automobiles in and out of the garage or where to park them and how they were going to get up on the highway. Well at the time they thought there was an 8 ½ foot drop from the pavement down to the floor level of the basement and that turned out to be wrong. So, they now have a lot less slope and it looks okay. That part of it looks fine. I don’t think they had to change locations of the building or anything like that. That looked good. Looks like they have probably adequate parking. They’ve added where they’re going to put their grinder pumps, their utilities, and stuff like that, tennitively anyways. Where the lawn area is, we questioned the stacking of them 4 floors high. Rather than stacking 3 different apartments on each floor, and there comment was that they sell a lot better if they’re 3 floors high or 4 floors high. I know nothing about that, so I’ll stay out of that. We also questioned the number of them in a density for such a small area of land. We will let some of the others comment on that. We discussed the plot plan which they did have, kind of a, well, sort of a beginning of a site plan. They had a sheet with some elevations on it which is a long way from a site plan but that is what they used to help determine what they could do there with this other plan. We didn’t say too much about it, it was a poor substitute for a good site plan. I think you know that. Site plans have existing buildings, fences, trees, power lines, water lines, sewer lines, you know, the whole 9 yards. That makes a good site plan. And a North arrow. So, but we did already too much about that. But we discussed that, we seemed to be pretty happy with that weren’t you Denny?

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah.

Don Ward stated, that part of it. The rest of it we didn’t get into which is the density, the stacking of them 4 deep. 4 floors deep. I guess if you want to build it that way. I don’t know, not my business. At least I see it that way.

Perry McWilliams stated, I’d like to address that just for a second, the first one on the stacking. The, one of the reasons we don’t have the stacking approach, as Don’s mentioning, we thought that in this design by having more of the individual town home units, okay, it gives people a sense of ownership and a property that that have. Irrespective if they are living on a floor of a building that almost has an apartment feel to it and we don’t want apartments. We want town homes. And in order to achieve that we need to have that separated you know where they have their own town home instead of the other method. So that’s why the design is the way it is. We think that it will be more attractive and hopefully lend to a more upscale type kind of environment. So that’s how I answer to this stacking. Otie, you’re the architect.

Otie Kilmer stated, it’s a good idea. It’s a good change if you get into a multi-family issue. The minute you put a 3rd one on top you’ve got to get them to the 1st floor, so suddenly you have to have a separate stairway if it’s a private unit getting all the way to the first floor. Second floor has the same thing. Unit on the second floor has to have a private stairway so does the individual unit getting to the first floor. I have no tripled my stairways. My other option is go to multi-family. You come out to a commons, double stairway, you go thru the state that way. Fire egress and all those kind of things. That’s not a town home. The idea then of stepping them back again if were putting the garage as a covered entity we’ve also got to get to the garage which then pushes it further back, makes the envelope bigger. If we try to stair step them back the sites going down not up so suddenly the building is going up, the view from the lake is a massive thing and now I’ve got pillars holding it up. I can get some great screened porches, but quite frankly with the owner were sitting at about 50% land coverage which in my opinion a dozen or so PUD’S done and multi-family, were pretty good tight coverage on the land and leaving as much. Don’s idea is good but it will increase the envelope. And suddenly were into multi-family situations not your own individual thing. Elevator thing would have to become commercial.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other commissioners have any questions about that?

Dave Scott stated, I just see 2 wells on here that’s going to be community water system.

Perry McWilliams stated, yes it is. It’s the, I consulted with, well I always work with Deld Brothers, not to give them a plug here but, I found out that they you know have been doing this for a few years and I had them come out to the site with me and show them exactly what we were doing. Actually we felt one well could have probably done it and satisfied that but by adding a secondary well we are going to be feeding 2 directions so that if 1 well ever does go bad we’ve got the other one as the back up.

Dave Scott stated, they’re going to be hooked together then. To one system.

Perry McWilliams stated, in the center, in the center we will have the opportunity to convert over to another well if we have too, if one goes bad for some reason, but the constant well system now that is being used, that gives you that constant pressure and enables you to, you know, put several units on 1 well. And our spacing is good, in reference to the sewer district and the grinders. I checked on what we needed on that, and that was for closed system. We only needed to be 10 foot to be 10 foot away from that actually so that was plotted with the same thought in mind there Dave.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you can get pressure up to the top floor then from the water.

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah, with the constant well system, yeah.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other commissioner have a question about the request? The total structure height to the basement is 47 feet is that what it came to?

Perry McWilliams stated, I think that was plotted there, isn’t it Otie?

Otie Kilmer stated, it’s on that drawing.

President Charles Anderson stated, and from the basement, where you drive in, you walk up to the 1st floor to don’t you?

Perry McWilliams stated, right now yes, yep, that’s how it’s drafted on there.

President Charles Anderson stated, right now, will you, plan on…

Perry McWilliams stated, well that’s what our plan is showing, yes, that’s correct.

President Charles Anderson stated, now 1 of the guys, 1 of the developers, Regal said he had built some other condos on another lake similar to this or? It was in the minute’s last meeting.

Perry McWilliams stated, that was Jeff. That was John’s partner.

John Hudack stated, hi, John, Regal Development, no, we had not developed any other condos, was that a misunderstanding maybe?

President Charles Anderson stated, no it was in the minutes from the last, that somebody had developed, in southern Indiana, or further south than this on another lake, had developed something similar to this.

John Hudack stated, yeah, I read the minutes and speaking for my partner, I don’t believe there’s anything that we represented that we had built in there. Him or I both.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay, do you have an idea the cost of what these condos are going to sell for or the total…

John Hudack stated, sale price or construction cost or…

President Charles Anderson stated, construction cost and what you do expect to propose the sale price?

John Hudack stated, sale price probably around the $400,000 mark per unit.

President Charles Anderson stated, per unit. You want to state your name, we’ve got to get this on the record.

Larry Moser stated, my name’s Larry Moser with Real Estate Network and we haven’t set the list price yet okay but its going to be probably looking at how the CMA’S fit throughout the region in the area it’s going to be around 5 to 570 somewhere in that vicinity. It won’t be at 400 I want to make sure that’s clear.

President Charles Anderson stated, what about total cost of the project? I mean you guys have the…

Perry McWilliams stated, we don’t have all the prices together on that Charles you know, we’re trying to get approval at this point and then we will get our package together on all our contractors and come up with a finalization on numbers.

President Charles Anderson stated, can you give me a ball park figure or anything like that or is that a little too far in advance?

Perry McWilliams stated, you know it really is because we, you know, you know certain things like an elevator, if it is in fact an option instead of being on there would factor into the overall cost of what were doing here.

President Charles Anderson stated, do you know of any other condos built similar to this around anywhere or why do you feel these would sell better this way just because it’s a single package this way out? You still got to go 5 flights or 4 flights of stairs to get from 1 to the very top of the…

Perry McWilliams stated, but the esthetics of what were building here. I think that you’re asking a question why do I think this is better than another design. Well why do I think this house looks better than the other house? Well it’s the design, overall look, and design of that. You know that’s what sells me, you know, and I think that this design is a good one. And going to look better than any other approach. We don’t want it to look like apartment buildings. We don’t want that at all. We want the town home look in that sense of individuality you know per these units. So to answer that question, you know, again, its style, its taste and we think that this hits the mark.

President Charles Anderson asked, commissioners have any questions?

Dave Scott stated, Diann, …the height, the BZA?

Director Weaver stated, no, not with the planned unit development, they would not?

President Charles Anderson stated, that’s 1 of the reasons we want to go with a PUD too, along with it, we can increase the amount of units in a PUD too.

Dave Scott stated, aint going to happen.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other commissioners have any questions for Perry or one of the other guys right now? Anybody in the audience have any questions for the Planned Unit Development.

Pat Mazgaj stated, my name is Pat Mazgaj, I don’t have a question about the unit. I just have a general question. How do you determine where the flood plain line is?

President Charles Anderson stated, board of engineers determines that.

Pat Mazgaj stated, it doesn’t have anything to do with the plot or anything?

President Charles Anderson stated, they’ve got to, a certain height they’ve got a certain height according to the engineer that’s put out. Then you go from it. These have to be 2 foot or 6, 2 foot above or 6 foot above flood plain.

Director Weaver stated, the lowest floor elevation has to be 2 foot above base flood elevation. But if, my understanding from Dave, who is the Building Inspector, they have to be a total of 6 foot above the lake level with floor elevation.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay, 2 foot above that.

Pat Mazgaj stated, thank you.

Don Ward asked, do you have a floor elevation of the 1st floor? The sea level.

Otie Kilmer stated, no we don’t have a full engineering plan. We know the lot like slopes 2 to 3 foot each way but we haven’t set it yet because we’ve got …the structure and then start the retaining walls.

Don Ward stated, well was that, I don’t remember, Dennis do you remember that their site plan, was that the sea level? It was wasn’t it or wasn’t it?

Dennis Sterrett stated, I think it was.

Don Ward stated, I think it was 600 some, 600 and some. Okay. We really do need that.

Otie Kilmer stated, that looks like what we set the lower floor at.

Don Ward asked, hmm?

Otie Kilmer stated, that is what we set the lower floor elevation.

Don Ward stated, yeah, that is really what we need, what the floor is.

Otie Kilmer stated, well, if I my understanding on a preliminary, as an architect, having done this for a few years, like 35, obviously I know I need a civil engineer and we need all the grade and elevations I need a structural engineer to set these things. Until I get all that grading, detention plan, and set my floor elevations, I can’t tell you right now in a preliminary exactly where I’m at. But believe me it’s got to go before the state which they won’t care about the site. But much like the last one, we’ve got to have a detention plan, we’ve got to have all these things in place. We’re not going to build a building, you know, I’m certainly not going to put my stamp on it if it’s going to get flooded out there. No I don’t have it in this preliminary. I can make a guess were about 2 or 3 feet down from that slope, but I don’t want to pin it down until we see the drainage plan, which we haven’t done but fully do in the next step if we get approval.

President Charles Anderson asked, does somebody want to address the buildings on here and where they’re at and buried gas tanks in this area? What’s going to happen with those. That was in the minutes too. I was just going by what was in the minutes.

Larry Moser stated, again, I’m Larry Moser. There was questions about whether there was tanks in the grounds or not and there was research done on a phase 1 and phase 2 inspection and we brought the owners back in that owned it before and they had pictures of where the tanks were and there was probes made in that area and there are no tanks there. So the tanks are gone.

Attorney Altman asked, do you have a copy of the phase 1 and 2 inspection?

Larry Moser stated, not with me but we certainly do have those, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, those would be pretty relevant to have right now. For this board to look at.

President Charles Anderson stated, about the tanks. We have another question back here in the audience.

Pat Mazgaj stated, no, I just wanted to, I think…

President Charles Anderson stated, you want to state your name.

Attorney Altman stated, excuse me, you have to come to the mic.

President Charles Anderson stated, yep, we got to get you on the record.

Pat Mazgaj stated, hi, Pat Mazgaj, I believe the tanks are above the ground. There in this are here. See there was a red barn here.

Gerald Cartmell stated, about 50 years ago.

Pat Mazgaj stated, yeah, 60, okay, right, this small area here is where I think they’re at and I think they’re above ground.

Larry Moser stated, exactly, there was an existing tank above ground.

Pat Mazgaj stated, yeah, right here.

Larry Moser stated, and when the property was purchased the bank did make us do a phase 1. When the bank see’s a phase 1, it does identify any existing land use, previous land use, it did identify a tank. When a bank see’s a tank on a phase 1 they immediately go to a phase 2. We have to do sample borings and a test of the surrounding.

President Charles Anderson stated, and it was tested clear.

Larry Moser stated, yeah, we did sample borings and it was completely clear.

President Charles Anderson asked, what about the buildings now that are on there? Is there a building still on this property?

Larry Moser stated, there is a building still on the property yes. There is an existing above ground tank which would obviously be…

President Charles Anderson stated, no but I mean about the buildings that are still on, the buildings are still on this property right.

Larry Moser stated, yes, exactly.

President Charles Anderson asked, what is going to happen with those buildings?

Larry Moser stated, those would be removed.

President Charles Anderson stated, all of them, everything would be removed.

Larry Moser stated, there within the footprint of the development.

President Charles Anderson asked, any commissioners have any questions? Anybody have any questions about the density of the …

Gerald Cartmell asked, have you talked to the neighbors around to see what everybody thinks? I mean, if you were going to build that next to me I wouldn’t be very happy because I can’t see that direction, you know.

Larry Moser stated, well we have talked to the property owner to the North, I believe in Lafayette and also we have had some conversations with the people on the South and obviously the signs up in the front so if they had some opposing opinion I would imagine it was important enough to them.

President Charles Anderson asked, what did you have to send out?

Director Weaver stated, we just sent to the adjacent property owners.

President Charles Anderson stated, we sent out to the adjacent property owners. You want to come forward and state your name.

Pat Mazgaj stated, again, I’m not objecting this, I’m curious. I live the subdivision right over. This plan here looks great, showing me everything I wanted to know okay. The only problem is, with the problem to the south. The 3 lots are owned by people who don’t live in this town so their not going to come from up north.

President Charles Anderson stated, now if they were adjacent to this property they would have gotten notice from it.

Pat Mazgaj stated, pardon me sir.

President Charles Anderson stated, if they were adjacent to it they would have gotten notice and if they were interested then…

Pat Mazgaj stated, yeah, well okay, I’m sure they did, I’m sure they did. Okay, all I’m saying is the only reason I’m why I’m here is cause I’m concerned because I could, I could, I could throw a golf ball..

President Charles Anderson asked, how far are you from the…

Pat Mazgaj stated, 250 feet.

President Charles Anderson asked, what’s a 47 foot building down there going to do to your view of the lake?

Pat Mazgaj stated, it won’t bother me at all because it’s going to be in back of me. I have no objections to it if you people approve it, that’s fine with me.

President Charles Anderson asked, anybody else in the audience have any questions?

Perry McWilliams stated, Charles actually the closest building there, the Shafer Shores, the little cottage right there, that guy, believe it or not, is acquaintances, he’s from the Valparaiso area and Jeff, the guy who was here last week who’s also his partner, they have been talking and he was excited about this actually going on there, so it wasn’t a thing where it was like oh man, you know, the big city comes and builds this conglomeration and I’m down here, no. You know, he wasn’t objective to that at all.

President Charles Anderson asked, you’re calling Valpo a big city?

Perry McWilliams stated, huh.

President Charles Anderson asked, you’re calling Valpo a big city?

Perry McWilliams, no, well, I just, that’s my, my, no, maybe not. But, I’m just saying as far as a development. It wasn’t a concern for him and he knew Jeff as well, so. You know, and if you knew Jeff, I don’t know if that’s a good thing.

Dave Scott stated, this isn’t just for this one but for any of these P.U.D.’s, does the county or anything have to see some kind of financing or bond or something so they don’t start and do concrete work and then quit and then there’s a hole there is that a concern or who handles that part of it to make sure that the thing is funded so that…

Attorney Altman stated, unfortunately that isn’t part of the ordinance.

President Charles Anderson stated, you want to address that as far as what phases you’re going to go thru. Is there going to be more than 1 phase as far as the structure is concerned.

Otie Kilmer stated, no, this is something we’ve been about 3 years in the planning. So it’s very well planned out. We’ve been to the bank obviously for the acquisition of the property, we’ve been talking about construction financing, we could certainly furnish a bank letter of commitment you know that we are serious about buying and we are going forward with this. We are talking to the bank about a financing program that would roll into percept of buyers so the bank is already familiar with the property and the project and prospective owners may have a little easier way into the …

President Charles Anderson asked, as far as construction though, are you going to do all 9 units at one time or you…

Otie Kilmer stated, yes.

President Charles Anderson stated, the whole 9 units at 1 time. Are you going to try to pre-sell these building or you…

Otie Kilmer stated, sure, as soon as we get approval, we get drawings, we will go forward with an actual scale model that we will put into the realtors office.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there a certain percent that you want to have sold before construction starts or you go?

Otie Kilmer stated, yeah, we’d love to have 9 of them sold before we start.

President Charles Anderson stated, I know that. I’d like to mushroom hunt to.

Otie Kilmer stated, yeah, it’s not a commitment for my bank or myself. We’d love to have 1 or 2 in the fold but it’s not going to hold us up.

Gerald Cartmell asked, each unit has how many units in it? Is it just 1 family per unit or is it 3?

Otie Kilmer stated, 1 family per the 9 units. So it’s a total footprint of 9 units for 9 individual owners.

President Charles Anderson stated, I’d rather be one of the kids, I want to be on the 3rd floor. Commissioners have any questions.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess what I do want to talk about that, our ordinance says that the density of the home and the covered area and the pavement and that sort of thing, cement and all, can’t exceed 65% and that’s why I wanted to check and make sure that that is where you are right now, at 50.

Otie Kilmer stated, it is on the drawings in the upper right corner there.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, alright. Just wanted to make sure.

President Charles Anderson stated, that is that it doesn’t exceed the 65%. That would be…

Otie Kilmer stated, yeah, I’m very comfortable with those numbers, Otie Kilmer, the architect. The numbers up there, yeah, I took the surveyors map and we’re real close. The square footage exactly of the lot is a little difficult. He’s not in auto cad and so we go off maybe a percent or something. But I’m very comfortable with it.

President Charles Anderson asked, but it comes with 50, how many percent?

Otie Kilmer stated, 50%.

President Charles Anderson stated, 50%.

Otie Kilmer stated, 17,424 square feet.

Attorney Altman stated, and what is the density per unit.

Otie Kilmer asked, of the whole lot?

Attorney Altman stated, of the whole lot?

Otie Kilmer asked, okay, are you talking, okay, the whole lot is 34,000 square feet? So 9 units, it would be about 9 x 4, 4000 square feet.

President Charles Anderson stated, 3800, something like that.

Otie Kilmer stated, yeah.

Gerald Cartmell asked, how close are these together, right against each other or…

Otie Kilmer stated, there’s a 1 hour or 1 to 2 hour, 1 hour I think it will be rated party wall with a separation space in between.

President Charles Anderson asked, and that goes clear up thru the ceiling then?

Otie Kilmer stated, 3 units and that goes all the way to the roof and fireproofed to the roof, 5 foot each side per the building code.

Gerald Cartmell asked, is there any way for fire equipment to get around to the lakeside?

Otie Kilmer stated, we have an access road there with a pumper truck, I, you know, were close by, obviously it has to go thru your local fire department and get approval, but I don’t see anything, we put the access in …

Gerald Cartmell stated, oh, here it is, okay, same place the water goes.

Director Weaver stated, well that kind of leads to a discussion I had with our building inspector, Dave Anderson, I spoke with him this afternoon about this project and have you been in touch with his department at all regarding this?

Larry Moser stated, no, Diann, I guess the reason we haven’t been in touch with his department is because we know that after, if we get approval, then we go to his department. I mean, and then we touch on any construction concerns he has. There wasn’t, in our opinion, we didn’t want to, you know, put the cart before the horse.

Director Weaver stated, understandable, but he does want to make sure that everybody realizes that when you go 4 stories that it will require sprinklers which will also require holding tanks for water. And he also has concerns about insurance because of the distance this is from the fire departments. He didn’t know if you had checked into those, that, into the insurance perspective of that.

Gerald Cartmell asked, is that Monticello or Buffalo?

Director Weaver stated, umm, it’s still in Union Township so it would be in Monticello jurisdiction, but I think it’s probably about ½ way between Monon and Monticello. Am I right Nancy.

Member of the Audience stated, yeah.

President Charles Anderson stated, so at 4 stories they needed a sprinkler system in that, which would increase the cost of what you guys are planning on doing too.

Otie Kilmer asked, well what I might ask, in that particular one, is that multi-family or single family for 4 stories?

Director Weaver stated, that I can’t answer. He did not tell me.

Otie Kilmer stated, multi-family, 3 levels above is always sprinkler. And I’ve done 18 units, multi-family is something we’ll look into. Obviously we’re not going to be able to fire trap it. I’m not sure that is true for single family.

Director Weaver stated, okay, well he was aware that these were going to be condominiums and single family units.

President Charles Anderson asked, would that change your plans at all as far as… You want to come forward and state your name again?

John Hudack stated, we will look into that, that might be a new development but I don’t think that would, but we would have to look into that.

President Charles Anderson asked, the commissioners have any questions about that?

Otie Kilmer stated, Otie Kilmer architect, I’ve done several restaurants and other situations we’ve had to go sprinkler and some owners with metal studs and things like that, but usually if we can get the water pressure up we can supply that. The builder won’t quote me, but normally we run about 225, $2.00 a square foot for sprinkler system once we have the pressure, yes we’d have to look at tanks or extra pumping but it’s not a significant jump. I’ve had some apartment owners that we’ve had projects not go before because they were so close in the line they do not want to do that, but we don’t see that as a problem on that amount. Thank you.

John Hudack stated, John Hudack, again as Perry said, we’re really in the preliminary cost budgeting stages, obviously we do have some budgeting and sale price versus profit. Again, we’re not, we’re at the preliminary stage right now so we haven’t talked to the Building Commissioner, we haven’t gone down every single road. Like Otie say’s, I’m familiar with the multi-family, 3 above sprinkler, we’re reviewing this as a single family, so that’s something we will address obviously, but obviously there’s some things that once we get thru this process we will go on and finalize, make a lot of finalization, you know site plans and you know get with the Building Commissioner and find exactly what he is requiring, go to state code, you know, and make sure everything exactly is required. Again, we expect some…

President Charles Anderson stated, but everything’s got to be in place before you can start building it anyway.

John Hudack stated, exactly, exactly.

Gerald Cartmell asked, how far is it from the North side to the South side? From unit 1 to unit 9? I don’t see it on here anywhere. I’m sure it is but I just don’t see it.

President Charles Anderson stated, 9 x 20 almost is about 180 feet.

Gerald Cartmell asked, is that what they are? You’re going to drag 180 feet of hose from the North side to the South side to fight fire?

Perry McWilliams, there’s an access road around there Gerald.

Gerald Cartmell stated, it doesn’t show that. It shows it on the North side only.

Perry McWilliams stated, but you have a parking lot in the front.

Gerald Cartmell asked, and then where’s it go? How do you get down here? You can drive on this grass? I’m a fireman, that’s why I’m saying. Fire trucks are very heavy and it aint going to fly on grass. I just, you know, just something I’m wondering about.

President Charles Anderson asked, how much hose do you usually carry on a truck?

Gerald Cartmell stated, well you carry tons of it but it’s down the street.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah.

Gerald Cartmell stated, you know, across the yard, you got to get the pump close. I don’t know, that’s something for the…

Dave Scott stated, typically we carry 500 feet, so our hydrants are 1,000 feet apart. I don’t know what everybody else does.

President Charles Anderson stated, my only concern is a little bit the density, the height of those buildings.

Attorney Altman stated, as to the density. I just kind of want to talk about the ordinance a little bit. This is zoned B-1. That doesn’t mean that this board can’t go ahead and put residences in there even though isn’t an approved use.

Director Weaver stated, it’s zoned B-2 currently.

Attorney Altman stated, B-2, okay, okay. But either way, B-1 or B-2.

President Charles Anderson stated, the P.U.D. can go in anything.

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s right, however I guess I’m saying, I’m looking at the minimum square footage that we have in our residences here in our ordinance and I guess I’m just indicating to our board and decided how much of a variance you effectively are going to give to…

President Charles Anderson stated, the only 1 that gets down there is an R-4.

Attorney Altman stated, R-4 is the only 1 that does that.

Director Weaver stated, mobile home park.

Attorney Altman stated, R-1 is 7500, R-2 is 5000, R-3 is 7000, and R-4 is 2500. Again I’m just talking about the facts. I guess, like you kind of said Doc. This is the first one I’m aware of that we’ve talked about in White County and this is going to be the, if it’s approved, the standard, the yard stick and I think everybody has to be very careful about how, what you do here, and what the board, as to what you allow or don’t allow. I’m not saying either way, I’m just talking about the facts.

President Charles Anderson asked, the other Planned Unit Development, how many, how much footage was he talking about? He was going to end up 3000 something too wasn’t it, Jacobs.

Attorney Altman stated, Diann, do you remember what Jacobs had? I can’t remember. I don’t know, but I guess what I’m saying is we have to look at this very carefully and I know you are and I know they are too, so I don’t mean that, but I’m just saying that before you vote you got to look at that, and you don’t need to vote tonight, but whenever you do you, you have to decide that. The other thing is, our ordinance says that what they present needs to meet the primary plat requirements and Diann, we always ask this, does what they presented, meet the primary plat requirements for a subdivision control ordinance.

Director Weaver stated, I can not answer that, I do not know. I have not looked at it with that perspective.

Attorney Altman stated, can you indicate, whether it does or doesn’t, what you presented meet's the requirements of the primary plat.

Perry McWilliams stated, hi, Perry McWilliams, I guess Jerry I’m just a little bit confused because it seems like to me that you’re trying to pull from existing zoning requirements and trying to lump that into a P.U.D.

Attorney Altman stated, no, I’m reading from the P.U.D. ordinance.

Perry McWilliams stated, my, again, I thought the P.U.D. was just that, that we were submitting a plan that hopefully is thought out from architects, engineer’s and builders and we’re submitting it to you for you guys to render you know you’re decision on that and I believe that it would be a case by case situation. I don’t think even though you if you gave us permission that you immediately were required to give everyone permission. Certainly what we’ve already gone thru, you know, to try to get primary approval, it’s a very difficult road and you know, we’ve tried to answer those questions and feel like hey, we’ve got a good product and we’re being responsible in what we’re doing so, let’s not confuse it.

Attorney Altman stated, I’m not confusing it. I’m saying that’s what the ordinance requires.

President Charles Anderson stated, he’s just trying to point that out to us board members. It’s up to the board, it’s not up to Jerry.

Attorney Altman stated, oh no, I don’t decide it.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay, okay, very good.

President Charles Anderson stated, he’s just trying to give us a idea of density and other density’s with other zoning’s we got on there. It does state though that P.U.D.’S intended to accommodate developments with mixed and varied uses sites within usual topography or unique settings within the… and I suppose you would be within a unique setting because of the lake and everything on that, or on land which exempts difficulty or costly development, and you’re probably going to have some costly development there. And shall not be allowed for the zoning classification to sought primarily to avoid the imposition of standards and requirements of other zoning classifications which, you know, one of the reasons you’re wanting a planned development is to get away from some of those zoning classifications.

Otie Kilmer stated, I’m Otie Kilmer again, the architect, having done a few P.U.D.’S in other communities, one of the things they look at which is pretty common throughout is the square footage and lot coverage for example I’m currently involved in one in the City of West Lafayette. The City has set a standard in P.U.D.’S of no more than I think landscaping has to be a minimum of 19% or something like that. We’re sitting at 50. So if you look at a lot of the P.U.D.’S whether they be residential or commercial you find these standards and I think that’s something that most communities want to be in, they look at that history and say well wait a minute, now what are we doing for the community. Should we allow a bigger coverage? Yes it’s a number of units put on it, but if you look at how the land is used and what have they given back as far as greenscaping and those kind of things and look at those percentages and say no, we’re not going to let you go 75% coverage, you go 20 or 40 or something like that, and I think that has probably some more merit looking at very, house on a very large lot and toning down, what are you giving up here and how do you address those? How is one different than the other, and I think the P.U.D. allows that kind of flexibility if you can look at those kinds of things and say well what’s the minimum and what’s the maximum and those might be a way, once you get some history into it, to take a look at, thank you.

President Charles Anderson stated, but also there is a limited amount of space on the lake and Planned Unit Development’s are going to be here and be here to stay so you know.

Otie Kilmer stated, if I might add one more thing, Otie Kilmer, other situation I’m involved is they set limits. There is no more than 2 P.U.D.’S within 2 miles or this particular subdivision can have not more than 2 in 5 year proposal. Maybe your staff could look into some of those kinds of ways of governing that kind of growth which I know you don’t want. Thank you.

Larry Moser stated, one of the other things that Jeff asked me to mention was that obviously this is a B-2 at this time and it is a rental area and there was as many as 26 boats available and there was traffic in and out of this thing all summer long plus there was picnicking going on there I mean there was a lot of activity. So I mean there was things that were going on that are probably going to be lessened at the point of our development and some time ago there was also trailers up front there which were eliminated with the purchase of the acquisition of the property to the left, so you know, I mean, as far as extra work on the lake, basically it’s going to be less in my opinion than it was before.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other questions from the Commissioners?

Greg Bossaer stated, I guess you bring up a good point though Doc, that that’s the most valuable property there is. There’s limited, everybody wants to be there. There’s limited lot size and this is kind of a unique way to bring in upscale accommodations and …

President Charles Anderson stated, my only other concern is, you know, how something like that’s going to sell if you get up into the 5 $600,000.00 bracket and whether you know of course you’ll know that you know whether you go on with it and put the money or investment in it.

Larry Moser stated, well I’ve moved right at about 5.3 million this year in a soft market and I have comps that will substantiate what I am planning on listing those things for, so I seriously guys…

President Charles Anderson asked, where are the comps from?

Larry Moser stated, from Lake Shafer.

President Charles Anderson stated, Lake Shafer area.

Attorney Altman stated, the price, I don’t doubt that it will sell. It’s the rest of it that I’m only talking about presenting the board. Doc, they sell, I just can tell you that and I just know Jim, though he’s a board member and he’s recused himself, I’m sure he’s convinced at the price they’re talking about that they’ll sell.

President Charles Anderson stated, they’ll need the elevator.

Attorney Altman stated, I would agree.

President Charles Anderson asked, any more questions from the board? You want to go ahead and vote on this one? That’s all we got.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, the vote on P.U.D. #07-7, we have 5,6 votes cast, 1 that recused, vote is 5 to 1. The matter is not adopted. It will be continued to next month for the revote on that for the board that’s there.

President Charles Anderson stated, major problem is, you got to have 6 votes for it to be approved. I should have mentioned something to you about that. You only got 6 members here that can vote.

Perry McWilliams stated, I’m sorry, can you explain.

President Charles Anderson stated, we had to…

Perry McWilliams stated, can you clarify please what the 6 votes.

Attorney Altman stated, the vote yeah, go ahead Doc.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah, you need, there are 10 members of the board. You need 6 members out of the 10 members to have it, for a recommendation to be made. This will be sent.

Attorney Altman stated, this is the board. You need 6 votes to approve it. And we don’t have it, we only have 5. When that happens it’s, when it’s at that level in other words it’s continued in next months meeting for a vote on the same matter until 6 votes are obtained either way.

President Charles Anderson stated, so it will be brought back up at the next meeting and hopefully we…

John Hudack stated, I’m sorry, could you please you clarify we had 5 yes 1 no.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s right.

John Hudack stated, and…

President Charles Anderson stated, it’s a matter of public record, you can go look …

John Hudack stated, I believe you, I understand. How do we make sure at the next meeting that we have our 6 or 7 board members that we need.

President Charles Anderson stated, you can call the office and find out.

John Hudack stated, because obviously, you know, again, many months with Diann and talking and the planning.

Director Weaver stated, if we can even tell you. We had 2 board members today that never even told us if they were going to be here or not be here. So we may not be able to tell you even.

Attorney Altman stated, I’m sorry, we just don’t know.

President Charles Anderson stated, that position is totally decided by us.

Director Weaver stated, no, it goes on to the County Commissioners, yes it does.

President Charles Anderson stated, if it goes onto the County Commissioners…

Director Weaver stated, it goes onto the County Commissioners.

President Charles Anderson stated, they should vote on it before it’s brought back to us.

Director Weaver stated, that’s what we’ve done with the others. It goes on to the…

President Charles Anderson stated, if it goes onto the County Commissioners you’d still want to take it onto the County Commissioners because they have the final say of it.

Director Weaver stated, and then it comes back. I don’t know, right or wrong but I know that’s how we’ve done the others.

Attorney Altman stated, alright then, to be consistent then it would then be forwarded to the County Commissioners with a no pass recommendation.

President Charles Anderson stated, with no recommendation.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, no pass recommendation is what, because it needs 6 to have that recommendation.

President Charles Anderson stated, but they have the final say on it.

Attorney Altman stated, but they have the final say and they can say, they can ignore our vote and approve it.

President Charles Anderson asked, when is the…

Attorney Altman asked, that is when Diann?

Director Weaver stated, it will be forwarded onto the County Commissioners for the next meeting next week.

Attorney Altman stated, next week, 8:00, 8:30 here in the morning.

Perry McWilliams, so if, Perry McWilliams, I’m sorry…

President Charles Anderson stated, that’s the reason we only had 5 votes. If we go to the County Commissioners and they say yes that overrides us. If they say no then it’s …

Perry McWilliams stated, okay, if someone comes to them, I’m just trying to understand a little bit county government, I didn’t understand how that worked.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t either.

Perry McWilliams stated, if someone comes in here then and you guys all vote 6 to 1 or whatever and you turn them down…

President Charles Anderson stated, as long as there were 6 you’re fine, but theirs only…

Perry McWilliams stated, but I’m saying, if you turn them down, you’re saying theirs always the recourse of going directly to the Commissioners even if you’re turned down.

Attorney Altman stated, I was wrong to start with. I was wrong to start with.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, this is forwarded to the County Commissioners on any vote.

Perry McWilliams stated, alright, so if it was approved it would go onto that next step.

President Charles Anderson stated, unless it goes to a town board, even though only 5 of us voted for it…

Perry McWilliams stated, so the only thing is it just doesn’t go to them with an endorsement.

Attorney Altman stated, with a positive recommendation.

Perry McWilliams stated, but will it, will they have the ability to see what the vote record was? That’s public knowledge right.

Attorney Altman stated, sure will.

Several members of the Board are speaking.

President Charles Anderson stated, if you’re there you have the ability to tell them yourself.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay, okay, alright, very good, alright. So we can proceed then on that notation. We don’t have to keep losing time.

President Charles Anderson stated, if you go there and they say yes, it’s a done deal.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay, okay, alright.

Director Weaver stated, that will be at 8:30 Monday morning.

Perry McWilliams asked, can I ask for a clarification on, okay, we go for the Commissioners and let’s just say they approve this, okay, and this is just still a preliminary approval, is that not correct?

President Charles Anderson stated, right.

Perry McWilliams asked, now, would the board or someone give us a checklist of what we need on the secondary approval necessary to finish up that because I’m not familiar with it? I’m just learning about it as well but it would help us out if we had a checklist of what we did need to have. Is that possible?

Director Weaver stated, I thought it was covered in the ordinance. I’d have to look again before I could tell you that.

Perry McWilliams asked, Don does that make sense, what I’m requesting?

Don Ward stated, it makes sense but I don’t know the answer because I don’t know whether we have a system or not. We’re new at this too. I’m not quite sure…

President Charles Anderson stated, it would be similar to what you would need for a subdivision though wouldn’t it. I mean, you would need everything you would need for a subdivision on that secondary.

Don Ward stated, well this is a lot, going to be a lot more complicated than that I think, wouldn’t it Diann? Wouldn’t they have to have approved plans from the state?

Attorney Altman stated, yes they should.

Don Ward stated, before we get a secondary approval.

Director Weaver stated, I can’t answer that Don.

Don Ward stated, or can we make that condition?

Otie Kilmer stated, I’m sorry, no the current project I’m doing right now in the City of West Lafayette, again, I’m not comparing cities but I’ve done a number of these. I know that the basic planning, the ideas good, it matches what the city wants and all that, now we go to the building department permits and things, we go to state, if it’s multi-family, single family does not go for a state permit, there might be a little concern here there so close together. We’re still treating it as a fire separation, so it would go to state, they do their design release, they get the full set of drawings at that point. We usually don’t file the full set of drawings at that point. We usually don’t file the full set of construction drawings until we know if we even have the preliminary and final approval from the zoning board. We would just waste all that time and money and peoples energy’s and stuff, but once the board approves in theory what they see on paper sure you’ve got to have a full set of drawings and things then that goes to the state for commercial and other but not single family. If it goes single family, no problem, we’ll send it single family, but the ones I’ve done before, apartments, even the condominium, we didn’t have to do that. I’ve never done that in a preliminary.

Don Ward stated, is this where the funding and all that comes into play? It is isn’t it?

Director Weaver stated, I believe so.

Don Ward stated, where we have to know the cost where the money comes from, a certainty that it’s going to happen. And I don’t know what else, what else is there.

President Charles Anderson stated, and you’d have to know exactly how you’re going to build it to, we’d have to know that, within 10%.

Don Ward stated, they don’t have a, some kind of, secondary approval with us they don’t want to go ahead with the final design. I don’t know the process, heck, I better shut up.

Director Weaver stated, when they come for secondary approval we need to know exactly where those buildings are supposed to be.

Perry McWilliams stated, well we don’t object to where it’s plotted right now. As far as where they’re going.

Director Weaver stated, but the drawings that you’ve provided don’t give us a location. A precise, I mean like, this drawing here, at least I didn’t see it, didn’t tell me how far back you’re going from the water.

Don Ward stated, yeah, you got to have dimensions. Don’t have elevation. Compared to the lake, the road, everything. Site plan is not complete.

John Hudak stated, sorry again, John Hudak, like Perry said, were here for preliminary approval and I guess the point were trying to make is if we did, if we spent 20 or $30,000 for full engineering, 50 or $60,000 for full architectural drawings, you know, line everything up 100% and then we came back and then it was like, nah, I don’t think we want this in our town. I mean, we’re trying to get your blessing to say yeah now its time to go to the next step, spend all the money…

Don Ward stated, well once you get preliminary approval here, that is basically what you’re going to do. You’re going to stick with that, that’s why we said, that’s why I wanted elevations and things, because that’s what you’re going to be stuck with once…

John Hudak stated, I agree, but again once we do full engineering we might decide you know if this building has to shift 6 inches this way because…

Don Ward stated, you can do a little. You can do some.

John Hudak stated, this, again, this has been thought thru several years at this point, so this building is what we are proposing. We’re not going to come back and go, you know, it’s going to be 13 units and they’re going to be 57 foot tall.

Don Ward stated, well, that, that would, if you would do that you’re done. I mean, you start over.

John Hudak stated, okay, we’re going to do 10 units and 49 feet.

Don Ward stated, well you only get a 10% change.

John Hudak stated, yeah it’s, again, were well within, it’s well thought out, this is, we’ve had many meetings, we’ve had years of, we hand picked this plot. We’ve been looking for land for several years. It’s not something we decided hey we’re going to throw up a few townhouses, we looked at, you know, we got Otie very early involved, we said hey Otie what can a density be on this and he said well hey were doing some you know 75% said well you know we want a lot of green space, we want these to be real friendly, we want people to walk up and feel like its their home. We don’t want it to feel like a condo or like you’re in a apartment building some massive blob stuck in a plot of land, so we kept a lot of green space. We put a lot of thought into density, how it would affect the area, we wanted to have just a great product. So again, we could come to the next meeting, we’ll have bank commitments whatever you need, like Perry said, if you tell us what we should come back with, you know, we’ll have it, just like last meeting, we covered the engineering, the grinders, gas service, whatever you want, we’ll come back with, but we just need an expectation from you, what we should come back with, and that’s fine, that’s all were asking for.

Don Ward stated, well we’re going to have to get that figured out.

President Charles Anderson stated, I’d go thru the chapter.

Don Ward stated, it would have to follow the book whatever it says, right.

Otie Kilmer stated, may I ask one more, Otie Kilmer, I’m sorry, that was the point, if I took that auto cad drawing now and in 10 minutes I could fully dimension that thing and have so many numbers you couldn’t see the thing, we don’t need that. I guess my concern from what I was asked to supply, if I look in that book and I find I need those fully dimension to each point of the building to the site plan, because again, I might have missed that, but if I have, like Perry said, a checklist…

Director Weaver stated, you’re going to need that for the secondary, I’m almost sure.

Otie Kilmer stated, if it’s in the book, great, I’m more than happy to do it, but I didn’t realize that we had to have it fully dimensioned, but again if I had a checklist like Perry said we can see yes, this no problem. Thank You.

President Charles Anderson stated, I think it is in the book.

Larry Moser stated, it goes back to the word preliminary and I know you guys don’t have a lot of experience in this area and we’re asking to get it right, but last week we were asked and we spent another 8-$10,000.00 in our research to get the list that I got from Diann being how to get down to the garage, the parking, the utilities, the wells, the grinders, the greenspace, the plot plan that shows the surrounding areas and we’ve came up with all of that and we sure appreciate the 5 votes, okay, but somewhere amongst us we want to get started obviously because we got a spring coming and obviously that’s going to be the time we want to be selling. There’s been somewhere in the vicinity of $750,000 bought spent on this property, there’s a lot of money going into this and theirs a lot of responsibility that goes along with that, okay, and we felt like we did have a list from you guys and we did approach that list with diligent and effort, and I know I spent hours on it between last month and this month and so you know again to me that gets back to the preliminary approval and then let us go on to the next one and I’m sure there will be plenty of questions with that one and we will be glad to answer those questions as we go forward but we did spend our time doing what we were asked to last time but how do we know if there will be enough members here, I mean.

Attorney Altman stated, you don’t know.

President Charles Anderson stated, there’s no way to tell, but I would try to call or call each individual and see…

Attorney Altman stated, the ordinance says what you need to do, if you do that, it says specifically on page 49 if you set forth the requirements set forth in subdivision control ordinance for preliminary and final plats if you do that you’ve done it, if you don’t, its not approved, and I’m sorry I cant design you’re your project but …

President Charles Anderson stated, they didn’t want you to…

Larry Moser stated, yeah, were not sorry about that Jerry.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand that but I’m telling you that the requirements are in the ordinance and we can’t do that for you.

Perry McWilliams, yeah, so Perry McWilliams, one more thing so we can get out of your hair guys, yeah, were frustrated, okay, you can see that on us, we’ve put a lot of hours into this stuff and thought we really were pretty confident coming into this meeting and hopeful that we would have the votes to move to the next step and know it’s a little frustrating on our part to leave her without anything, knowing that you guys cant do anything about about it. I understand it, that’s what the ordinance is. But it then puts us in a risk factor again from the Commissioners of being approved or not.

Members of the Board are speaking at once.

President Charles Anderson stated, if the Commissioners turn this down it doesn’t come back to us.

Perry McWilliams stated, so we can proceed from here.

President Charles Anderson stated, to the Commissioners to see what their outlook is on it, but if it doesn’t, if the Commissioners turn that down it doesn’t come back to us.

Perry McWilliams stated, it’s done, it’s dead in the water.

President Charles Anderson stated, it’s done, you’d have to resubmit it. Either the same way again and try to find out how many people are going to be here or alter it somewhat, you know, I cant just, 10 individual people on this board and each individual has their own vote, there is no way to tell how a person is going to vote.

Perry McWilliams stated, and if there not at the meeting they can’t vote.

President Charles Anderson stated, if they are not at the meeting they can not vote.

Perry McWilliams stated, no absentee voting.

President Charles Anderson stated, no.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, but Perry understand too, we don’t have to send this to the Commissioners Monday and Jerry you may know off the top of your head but I think we have 30 days to forward this on so you know if you want to get additional information to you know make this more solid before it goes to the Commissioners you can do that.

Perry McWilliams stated, yeah.

Director Weaver stated, but I do have to have it at least a week prior to.

President Charles Anderson stated, but there’s nothing that says you can’t tell the Commissioners that 6 people here and 5 voted for you.

Perry McWilliams stated, it’s just nice to go into that meeting saying you guys approved it, that’s all. You know, even if the vote…

Attorney Altman stated, it happens is all I can tell you.

Perry McWilliams asked, have other things passed with the same situation? People going before the Commissioners with no vote.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah, they’ve overrode us before.

Attorney Altman stated, not often.

Perry McWilliams stated, I didn’t need to hear that Jerry.

Director Weaver stated, you have to understand too that Planned Unit Development isn’t something they’re used to looking at.

Perry McWilliams stated, okay, alright, so they may have a hands off approach and say nope, go back to where you came. Okay.

Larry Moser stated, Larry Moser again. Can I ask a simple question? Has there been any P.U.D.’S preliminarily approved by this Commission on Lake Shafer? Can I ask who that was.

President Charles Anderson stated, on Freeman.

Attorney Altman stated, on Lake Shafer.

Director Weaver stated, on Lake Shafer.

Larry Moser stated, no I’m saying Lake Shafer.

Director Weaver stated, yes, yes, Mike Sheridan.

Larry Moser stated, okay, thank you.

Director Weaver stated, Mike Sheridan.

President Charles Anderson stated, it was by the beach wasn’t it?

Larry Moser stated, can we get a copy of the minutes for that?

Attorney Altman stated, sure, tomorrow morning, they’d be glad to give it to you, you bet, public record.

Larry Moser stated, okay, very good.

Attorney Altman stated, thank you.


#07-8 TSCR, LLC; Requesting Primary approval of a Planned Unit Development to be known as Lakewood Condominiums on Lot Numbers 3, 4, 5 and 6 in Frank R. Burch’s Lakeside Second Addition. The property is located in the City of Monticello at 208-214 N. Beach Drive.

President Charles Anderson asked, anyone here representing that request?

Tim Schaffer stated, Tim Schaffer.

President Charles Anderson asked, Commissioners have any questions about their request?

Director Weaver stated, just so everyone realizes, this is an existing structure. This structure is already there. It is an, currently an apartment building.

Don Ward stated, we have no real typical, condo or whatever you’re going to have, elevations, plans, and things like that.

Attorney Altman stated, there is no site plan. No site plan. There is no site plan.

Tim Schaffer stated, yeah, we have, what’s the gentlemen’s name?

Don Ward stated, well that’s the site plan and this is better than theirs but it’s still sketchy. I’m not talking about, I want to talk about the building. Apartments. You’re going to have certain number of them.

Tim Schaffer stated, they are town houses.

Don Ward stated, an actual layout here and a elevation, a section thru the building, or anything about what you’re doing. At least I don’t have it. Does anybody have it.

Attorney Altman stated, no.

Don Ward stated, I haven’t seen them.

Tim Schaffer stated, of what were doing, in what respect.

Don Ward stated, like what they have.

Attorney Altman stated, a site plan is required. This is on page 49. And the site plan says 5.3003 says, that the information required on either the preliminary or final site plan shall conform with the requirements set forth in the subdivision control ordinance for preliminary or finals plats respectively. Just like I said the last time.

Tim Schaffer stated, I understand that.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s on page, preliminary requirements are set out on 11, page 11 of the subdivision control ordinance. And this is what we are used to seeing before we can basically go to the next step and review it.

Tim Schaffer stated, well I went thru all those steps and I hired an engineer that I thought was going to provide me with that information.

Don Ward stated, well you do have a site plan, but you don’t have much of anything on the building. I mean. Elevations thru the, I mean sections thru the building.

Tim Schaffer stated, I can tell you if you…

Don Ward stated, elevations showing the parking area, the floor elevations, all that kind of stuff. Sort of like this. Did you see what they had?

Tim Schaffer stated, no I didn’t.

President Charles Anderson asked, hey you want to come on back?

Don Ward stated, they had, you know the floor plans, section thru their buildings, and each floor, and what you’re going to do. Typical, they are going to make theirs all alike basically, but…

President Charles Anderson stated, you already in a existing building, does this building meet all the new fire codes?

Tim Schaffer stated, yes, we have, the building has stone, what is that..

Charlie Roberts stated, between each unit is 8 inch cement blocks clear to the top. In the attic there is double jimson board for fire wall, so I mean, and the original design is thought out for safety concern. As far as that it should be, I mean, when they got the original plans to build this…

Don Ward asked, do you have a set of the original plans?

Charlie Roberts stated, no I do not. I tried to obtain those, but I know they had to have all those heights and all this stuff that you’re looking for when it was passed, I think it was built in 78. So I mean it’s it’s already crossed that hurdle before.

President Charles Anderson stated, but you’re turning it into a Planned Unit Development, but if there has been any changes in that it would have to be upgraded to any new changes, building codes to wouldn’t it. Would the building inspector?

Director Weaver stated, the one thing that, I talked to the building inspector today about this property also. He did say that there would be required 1 hour firewall between each unit. And the fire alarm system would have to be direct wired and a battery backup. He’s not sure how these structures were built to know if these requirements have been met. Especially the fire wall.

Tim Schafer stated, they have been. They have been. I can, we can attest to that.

Director Weaver stated, his recommendation was that it be inspected…

Tim Schafer stated, well we hired the engineer, obviously he didn’t, we thought we did well with what we paid for. That’s $2000.00 right in front of you buddy.

Attorney Altman stated, you heard about the money that they talked about. $2000.00, I don’t sniff at it.

Tim Schafer stated, I hope not, I mean.

President Charles Anderson stated, I would get a hold of Dave in the Building Department and try and get him to go thru it and inspect it.

Tim Schafer stated, yeah, would that suffice if we had him go thru it and check out the firewalls and such.

President Charles Anderson stated, well no, you would still need a …

Don Ward stated, I think we should have sections thru the building, I think we should have floor plan. Are these 2 story? I went and looked at them and don’t remember.

Tim Schafer stated, yeah, their town houses.

Don Ward stated, town houses, 2 stories. The setup, has there been any changes to the building since it was built that you know of.

Tim Schafer stated, no, no.

President Charles Anderson stated, but you don’t have the old building specifications.

Tim Schafer stated, well we asked if he had them and he said he wasn’t sure where they were. Ken Miller was the owner previously.

Attorney Altman stated, you better get that. It will save you a lot of money I think.

Tim Schafer stated, he said when he moved his office…

Don Ward stated, you could check with the State Building Commissioner and see if they have a set of plans. They might have.

Tim Schafer stated, okay, okay, alright.

Don Ward stated, you say it was built in 72?

Tim Schafer stated, 78.

Don Ward stated, 78. 30 years, that’s a lot of time.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, you’re right Don.

Director Weaver stated, Don do you know when the City of Monticello had their inspector?

Don Ward stated, I, 30 years ago I doubt if they had anybody.

Director Weaver stated, because I know that they used to require plans.

Don Ward stated, well they might have something, but I don’t know whether they have archives or not.

Director Weaver stated, well I don’t know what happened to those plans when Braksma left. Actually Dave Anderson might know, it seems like they did at one time offer those to him so you might ask Dave Anderson if he has those or knows what happened to them.

Tim Schafer stated, okay, alright.

Don Ward stated, if you can find out who designed it, they’d come closer to having plans or knowing about it.

Tim Schafer stated, okay, alright, we’ll check that out.

Gerald Cartmell stated, probably Miller’s dad built them.

Tim Schafer stated, he did, he built them. He did a good job. I mean, obviously.

Don Ward asked, who built it?

Gerald Cartmell stated, Joe Miller.

Tim Schafer stated, Joe Miller.

Don Ward stated, well he had to have a set of plans because they had to be approved by the state so somebody had to design them for him. I don’t know who that would be around here but. Probably an architect.

Tim Schafer stated, we’ll try to find that information out.

President Charles Anderson stated, well we need to get him a list of what he’s got to have going into the next meeting.

Don Ward stated, if you, if you can’t get it, then you’re going to have to get it drawn up for us.

Tim Schafer stated, so if I can get the plans then…

Don Ward stated, that would be great.

Tim Schafer stated, that will work.

President Charles Anderson stated, get plans and then he wanted elevations and things too.

Don Ward stated, well yeah. Plans will show sections thru and the ground elevation with reference to the 1st floor, and then of course the 2nd floor is…

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anything else you think they need to get for us? As far as the lake, do you have anything down to the lake on this.

Tim Schafer stated, yes, all the way down.

President Charles Anderson stated, all the way down. What is, do you have docks for this or…

Tim Schafer stated, well, that’s already in our plans. If we get approval we’ll do that.

Attorney Altman stated, you ought to have that on here in case.

Tim Schafer stated, well we’re not going to, we’re going to do that if we have approval, but we’re not going to do that unless we get approval. I mean, obviously that’s a lot of money to, you know, put in a, if we’re going to rent them out, obviously, or if we’re going to sell them.

Don Ward stated, each apartment would have its own actual garage right?

Tim Schafer stated, each apartment has its own actual garage except for 2.

Don Ward stated, see that that doesn’t show on here…

Tim Schafer stated, well he drew a small drawing for you.

Several Members speaking at once.

President Charles Anderson stated, if you’re planning on doing something down on the lake front you ought to get a little bit of an idea of what you’re going to be doing down there because once we give you a preliminary you cant change it from that preliminary.

Tim Shafer stated, okay, alright.

Attorney Altman stated, limited to 10% is what…

Tim Shafer stated, okay, I see what you’re saying, okay. So I put that into the plan with the steps.

Attorney Altman stated, so you got to have some there.

Tim Shafer stated, all we would do is put steps down to it, we wouldn’t do anything else other than that.

President Charles Anderson asked, there’s no sea wall down there or anything?

Tim Shafer stated, no sea wall down there. It’s it’s the river.

Don Ward stated, Charlie if you want this you can have that. It would kind of give you a, see that drawing there, that’s about as good as the…

Jim Mann Jr. stated, you’re not planning any piers or anything at this point.

Tim Shafer stated, not at this point.

Don Ward stated, you don’t have the problems that they have so you need to show where the utilities come in, power lines, water…

Attorney Altman stated, they have one here. That’s what Doc said.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you want to talk about this Don.

Don Ward stated, yeah, this was really good. But that’s the big question we had before was how they were going to get the cars down. Well they drew it all the way from the street.

President Charles Anderson stated, well you have plenty of parking there. Are these garages 2 car garages or 1 car garages?

Tim Schafer stated, 1 car garage.

Don Ward stated, to see level data so that we know the relation to the lake, road, and everything else.

President Charles Anderson stated, he needs to leave 2 spaces, is that what you got?

Tim Shafer stated, yeah, we got plenty of parking. We’re getting ready to have it all paved right now.

President Charles Anderson stated, you were working on that today weren’t you.

Tim Shafer stated, yeah were working on that today, trying to get that…

President Charles Anderson stated, I’d try to put that on to or have someone draw it to scale what you propose to do down there.

Tim Shafer stated, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, you’re right Doc. You’re exactly right because otherwise you can’t put it on there.

President Charles Anderson stated, well individuals could.

Attorney Altman stated, we told them to do the same thing. 10%

President Charles Anderson stated, back on the record.

Tim Schafer stated, we’re thinking price wise 180, something like that. More affordable. That area is, if you’re all familiar with that area, I think most of you are probably, are apartments and townhouses and duplexes.

President Charles Anderson stated, it would be fun dirt road back there years ago.

Tim Schafer stated, is that right?

Attorney Altman stated, do you have questions about what we’re wanting you to bring back so that you understand.

Tim Schafer stated, I think I do.

Don Ward stated, you know that we have to know the square footage per unit, total square footage, the square footage of the land, stuff like that. So that we know the percent. Green space, the percent of buildings, the percent of driveways, and all that. You realize you have to have all that.

President Charles Anderson, green space, how do you measure the hill.

Tim Schafer stated, okay are you sure, are we still talking about the same. We’re already there. We just measure from what we already have. Obviously we’re not going to be building anything. Everything we have is already there.

Don Ward stated, I’m sorry, I can’t hear you.

Tim Schafer stated, everything we have is already there, right. I mean our building is there.

Attorney Altman stated, but you have to establish where it is.

Tim Schafer stated, so we will just measure where we’re at this point. Well that’s what we thought we did actually.

Don Ward stated, yeah, you’re looking at the point. I guess, this is not detailed enough. Now that’s your site plan.

Tim Schafer stated, from here, if he shows what were needing to go, what he says…, draw in those measurements. I mean, he told me if he didn’t have enough he would be willing to add more. I mean.

Don Ward stated, it would be nice if he could show the contours but I don’t think he has enough elevation.

Tim Schafer stated, he actually shows further up.

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think you’re in a flood plain.

Tim Schafer stated, we’d all be hurting if we did.

Don Ward stated, well I make a motion we table this until additional information is provided.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have a second on that?

Gerald Cartmell stated, second.

President Charles Anderson stated, so moved.

Attorney Altman stated, can I have the ballots back please. I got yours Doc. That will be next month.

Tim Schafer stated, next month, okay. Hey, do we need to keep the sign up out there.

Director Weaver stated, yes, yes, leave it up.


President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda is business.

Director Weaver stated, we have checked into getting those small claims filed. We kind of got delayed on that. But in the meantime we received a letter from Carol VanDeWalle stating that she’s had some problems physically and financially. I am going to respond to that letter. I did show it to Jerry and we discussed it and I am going to respond to that letter. So that’s where that stands at this point. And then the lawsuits I think Jerry would have to update us on those.

Attorney Altman stated, on Spear, we finally, last week, got service on Mr. Spear. Basically he, we had a real fun time we had to service but he we finally did. We have a deputy prosecutor over there that does that for us in Howard County and quite frankly he probably enjoyed it to much to be paid but we still got to ask him to be paid. So we have that and that is we just finally got the answers of that is just about to be joined. Borys it’s essentially at the same level and I do know this that Mr. Blair is wanting to basically settle the case. I don’t think its settle able. I think were going to have get the court to basically order them remove the trailers there. That’s the one where they put 2 trailers. Am I using the right word.

Director Weaver stated, R.V.’S.

Attorney Altman stated, R.V.’S in and then they hooked them up to the sewer, put a sewer line in there so their no longer moveable. That’s where we are. And then with Meadowbrook, Diann have you heard anything back about whether we have a hearing coming up the 21st of this month. Basically trying to get that settled thru the court and that was proposed and then all the sudden Diann gives me the phone call that Russell, the most recent purchaser, wants to sell 2 lots off it and can she do that. And basically I told Diann and we worked together on this that if you put in the improvements or post the bond you can possibly do that but we both suggested that you get in the sewer line and make sure that she has everything because now the sewer is out in that area now and get that done. And I don’t think you’ve heard anything back have you.

Director Weaver stated, yeah. I have. I haven’t gotten with you to update you on the situation. I have met with her again. She still wants to sell the 2 lots off without putting the improvements in and so she is now considering re-platting a portion of that subdivision before she puts any improvements into it. So I think that’s probably what she is going to propose at our pretrial. He wants to be able to sell the 1 lot off so that they can build and put the driveway off the existing road. She’s been in touch with Steve Brooke at the Highway Department he has no problem with her accessing off of Chalmers road for those lots. And that’s really where it stands. I think she’s waiting to hear back from me if we are going to allow that.

President Charles Anderson asked, does that affect the subdivision adversely in any way doing that?

Director Weaver stated, well the lots that she’s wanting to sell off are existing lots. These front an existing road. They also have a new road that comes up to the back side of them.

Attorney Altman stated, there only existing if the subdivision state is allowed to not be all vacated.

Director Weaver stated, yeah.

Attorney Altman stated, and of course the reason we’ve all petitioned to vacate it wasn’t because we don’t want subdivisions. It’s because nobody was putting in improvements and it doesn’t sound like she’s wanting to do that either and I don’t see any sense particularly bending on that.

President Charles Anderson stated, …come back and re-subdivide it.

Attorney Altman stated, well and then if she proposes that that’s a different kettle of peas Doc and you guys decide that, yeah. So that’s basically where I feel like that we need to do that either she brings them back then the board can look at it.

President Charles Anderson stated, you got to vacate it first then she can bring it back.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, okay, okay, that’s kind of what I thought but I wanted to make sure that…

President Charles Anderson asked, what do you guys think? Vacate it and then bring it back?

Don Ward stated, I’d rather her see her either live with what she has or vacate the whole dang thing and redesign it.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, that pretty much a consensus of the board.

Member of the board stated, yeah.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, we’ll carry that to court.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other business?

Director Weaver stated, that’s all I have.

President Charles Anderson asked, any motions?

Don Ward made a motion to adjourn.

Greg Bossaer seconded the motion.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission


















Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________