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The White County Area Plan Commission met Tuesday, November 13, 2007 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Charles Anderson, Gerald Cartmell, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Toney Isom, Harold McGill, Sharon Garbison, Tim Schaffer, Charles Roberts, Suzie Ford, Michael Ford, Fred Minnick, and Ben Woodhouse (Deputy).

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Don Ward made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the October 9, 2007 meeting. Motion was seconded by Jim Mann Jr. and carried unanimously.


#944 Sharon Garbison; The property is located on Lot Number 13 in H.P. Bennett’s Addition, located in the City of Monticello at 717 S. Main Street.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from B-2 to I-1.

Gerald Cartmell stated, Sharon Garbison. Sharon Garbison.

President Charles Anderson asked, okay, Sherry Garbison, what did I say?

Gerald Cartmell stated, Gibson.

President Charles Anderson stated, well where did I come up with that? Do we have anyone here representing the request? You want to step forward and state your name.

Sharon Garbison stated, I’m Sharon Garbison.

President Charles Anderson asked, the Commissioners have any questions about the request at all?

Gerald Cartmell stated, so now this is, I guess I do. So you want to go from B-2 to I-1, which is what, light industrial?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Gerald Cartmell stated, and that opens it up for what?

Director Weaver stated, a big variety of things.

President Charles Anderson stated, a lot of things.

Director Weaver stated, well Jerry’s got my book.

Dave Scott stated, what are you planning to do Sharon?

Sharon Garbison stated, can, can, because Tracy is renting the building from me and he is the one…

Dave Scott stated, painting business?

Tracy Eastes stated, painting contractor yes, we’re not a business.

Attorney Altman stated, if you would talk please come up to the mic. It just doesn’t pick up sir is what I’m trying to say to you.

President Charles Anderson stated, and you are, you want to state your name?

Tracy Eastes stated, I’m Tracy Eastes and I’m a painting contractor here in town and what I do is finish cabinets, doors, things like that, so I’m just needing a place to be able to spray, paint, and lacquer and varnishes and things like that.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you want to, do you have any other questions about what can be done in an I-1?

Director Weaver stated, it opens it up to a wide variety, auto body painting and repair, truck and car rental and sales, automobile service repair, a commercial bakery, a beverage bottling plant, box paper manufacturing and cabinet manufacturing which is what he is wanting to do. A farm store or fiberglass manufacturing, a food warehouse, food processing, these are all items Gerald that do not require a special exception what I’m reading to you. Furniture manufacturing and repair and refinishing, commercial green house, janitorial services, machine shops, marine accessory shops, mobile home sales, moving company, newspaper printing facility, pallet production and refurbishing, parking facilities, a wide array of, I don’t know if you want me to go on.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you want the rest of them?

Dave Scott asked, is there anyway he can do what he wants to do without changing the zoning, with a special exception or anything like that?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t believe so.

Attorney Altman stated, I would agree with Diann. I don’t think so Dave at all. I think this would be number 1 would be if we decide you want to recommend this at the primary place that maybe a commitment would be a good idea to at least confine it to this use rather than these other things that would be very bad I suspect would probably be pretty objectionable and this might be too but those others I know would and I guess this would be a primary place for…

President Charles Anderson stated, another thing, the lot size and everything wouldn’t meet the requirements for an I-1 either and you’d have to go to the BZA again because you already did that once when it went to a B-2 didn’t you?

Sharon Garbison stated, I went and had a variance you know to have that done.

President Charles Anderson stated, for a B-2, for an I-1 you’d have to have another variance on this property because it doesn’t, according to what we have here it doesn’t meet the minimum lot size of 25,000 square foot, minimum lot width of 250 foot, so there would have to be a variance even if this was passed or if the zoning was changed on it you’d have to get a variance to do anything, really to do anything with it wouldn’t she?

Director Weaver stated, well for it to be a primary building possibly and yeah for the lot width and the size.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, I think you’re right Doc. Exactly, he’d need a variance for that.

President Charles Anderson asked, the Commissioners have any other…

Jim Mann Jr. asked, have you got your, is the building set up to handle the painting, in terms of the exhaust and all the precautions that you need to take?

Tracy Eastes stated, as soon as we got this done that’s going to be put into place.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, as soon as you get it done, yeah, okay, because I know they have to have certain rooms to do the painting in and there’s a lot of things that, so I presume you’ll meet the guidelines.

Tracy Eastes stated, right, yes, yes.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, are there specific guidelines you have to meet because of the nature of the work?

Tracy Eastes stated, no, not that I know of…

Jim Mann Jr. stated, not that you know of.

Tracy Eastes stated, no, just the exhaust, that would be the only thing, explosion proof, fan, exhaust.

Don Ward asked, don’t you have to have all explosion proof fixtures, switches, lights, and everything.

Tracy Eastes stated, uh, I don’t know, I’ve worked at a lot of shops where nothing is really any different. So I don’t really know about that, only thing I know is we’ve always had to have the explosion proof fans, exhaust fans. Lighting and stuff, I don’t, that may be, I don’t know for sure.

Don Ward stated, I think you’d have to be approved thru the state in order to do that, I think you’d have to have everything explosion proof in the paint rooms.

Tracy Eastes stated, it’s a very small, it’s not like I’m going to be running a conveyor system constantly in there spraying. It’s just the, you know, like some interior doors for a house or a cabinet, things of that nature, it’s just small things.

Don Ward stated, you’re not going to paint automobiles or anything.

Tracy Eastes stated, no, no, just like kitchen cabinets, your interior doors on your house or exterior metal door, things of that nature, the small things.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, piece by piece.

Don Ward stated, …I think should be reminded of that there, they about have to have 100% vote.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah, there’s only 6 members here and to get a positive recommendation you’d have to have 6 of us say yes to this, otherwise it would go with, if one person disagreed with it, it would go with no recommendation to the city board.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, it would go city Doc. So what Doc’s saying is you can wait till next month and get a larger, we have a 10 member board, only happen to be 6 of us here tonight.

President Charles Anderson stated, if that would happen, you never know that’s going to happen either, the only way you can tell that is to call in to Diann just before the meeting and find out before she gets out of the office.

Gerald Cartmell stated, well the other thing would be we could find out about all the electrical stuff to, or somebody could research that and see what that has to be.

Director Weaver stated, I think probably the building department could answer most of those questions.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you want us to go ahead and vote on this or do you want to table it till next meeting and then ask those questions but, the only thing is, even if we pass this, it would still have to get a variance on the property to change the building.

Dennis Sterrett stated, minimum lot width’s 250?

President Charles Anderson stated, that’s what you have on here.

Director Weaver stated, for an I-1.

Don Ward stated, well the city has to approve it too don’t they.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, right.

President Charles Anderson asked, what.

Attorney Altman stated, city has to approve it.

President Charles Anderson stated, city would have to approve it too.

Director Weaver stated, yes, that’s correct.

Don Ward asked, how large is that building?

Tracy Eastes stated, its 1100 square feet.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, it’s on the survey I think on the back.

President Charles Anderson asked, you want us to go ahead and vote or you want to table it or…

Sharon Garbison asked, well, but didn’t you have to have 6 people here to vote.

President Charles Anderson stated, we’ve got 6 people.

Gerald Cartmell stated, but you get one No vote and it’s a no go.

President Charles Anderson stated, if we didn’t have 6 people we wouldn’t have a meeting tonight.

Sharon Garbison stated, so then, so what happens if you vote on it. Then it says no it’s just done or we table it or…

Attorney Altman stated, no it goes to the city council, but it goes without a positive recommendation.

Sharon Garbison stated, I see, I see.

President Charles Anderson stated, it still goes on, but then if it’s turned down there you can bring it back.

Don Ward stated, they have the final authority. Ours is a recommendation.

President Charles Anderson asked, when do you bring it back, or can you?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t remember on that one. One of them you can one of them you can’t.

Sharon Garbison stated, so if I table it, were tabling it to find out what, I guess that’s my next question.

Don Ward stated, you table it until there are more members. If we have 8 members, 2 could vote against you and you still would have a positive recommendation to the city.

President Charles Anderson stated, and maybe that’s the building…

Don Ward stated, with this, if 1 votes against it then you have no recommendation to the city. Of course the city has the final vote any way.

President Charles Anderson stated, likely the city wouldn’t pass it, but you know, that would be so far out of compliance with an I-1 anyway in that area, I’m not sure, it’s debatable if it would pass anyway.

Sharon Garbison stated, right.

President Charles Anderson asked, can I say that?

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, exactly, I think it’s a very valid point. The other thing you can do is if you are going to combine your use to a very small use you could draft a commitment, it’s a written document that basically says, yeah, I-1 is allowed here but I’m only going to be using this for a small use. That might make it much more powerable to the board and the city council.

President Charles Anderson stated, and after that use was over it would revert back to B-2.

Sharon Garbison stated, that was my next question, is there something we can do just to get it to the use of what he’s doing and not any more.

President Charles Anderson stated, that would probably make it more apt to be able to pass and I don’t know about the BZA whether, what kind of problems the BZA would have with allowing that.

Attorney Altman stated, but that’s the future. But that would be the start, and I think it would be a good start is if you did a commitment and you can talk to Diann about that and I can give you a form and you can take it to your attorney if you want to and I would be glad to work with him or her about doing that and bring it back next meeting with Don’s questions answered and these other things so it is more powerable like Doc suggested.

President Charles Anderson stated, I would talk to Dave Anderson too about what you need.

Don Ward stated, yeah, about what you need for approvals because you may have to have some state approval thru the administrative building council. I don’t know, your building may not be large enough to go into that but I think it used to be 30,000 cubic feet.

President Charles Anderson stated, but Dave would know whether, what type of switches you would need in there to probably.

Sharon Garbison stated, Dave Anderson.

President Charles Anderson stated, he’s in the building department, its right up next to...

Director Weaver stated, he’s in the same room with us but on the other side.

Sharon Garbison stated, exactly, so what we need then I, you could get another form to commit to doing just this. So, but does that still mean we have to go back in and have that variance because of the lot size and all that?

Attorney Altman stated, I bet you would, yes, yes. Because…

Don Ward stated, it would probably help you, it’s for us, but it would help you for the city council and the BZA as well.

Sharon Garbison stated, well I figure if you guys pass it then everything’s okay. If you guys aren’t going to like it they’re not going to like it either.

Don Ward stated, that’s not a guarantee. They can override us.

Sharon Garbison stated, well, but they should be pretty close.

Don Ward stated, well the BZA, they are totally different group. Right Diann. Diann knows more on it.

Attorney Altman stated, so you are going to table it?

Sharon Garbison stated, yes, and then go ahead and …

Attorney Altman stated, very good, now, as far as the form on the commitment would you please either if you want to come over to my office and get a copy of one its sort of a generic one and then you can sort of draft it up the way you want it. I’d be glad to help you or your lawyers do that, okay.

President Charles Anderson stated, so this will be tabled to the next meeting.

Director Weaver stated, the next meeting will be December 10
th. We will need your information prior to that so that we can mail that out to the board members so they can review it before the meeting.

Sharon Garbison stated, what date?

Director Weaver stated, December 10th.

President Charles Anderson stated, no what date would you need those information’s by?

Director Weaver stated, oh, we would have to have it no later than the end of the month. November 30th. We mail our packets to the board members 10 days prior to the meeting.

Sharon Garbison stated, okay, we will do that. Am I done?

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah you’re done.

Sharon Garbison stated, thank you.


#319 Michael J. & Carolyn Sue Ford; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Ford Acres, on 2.04 Acres, SW NW 8-26-3 in Union Township, located South West of Monticello at 2492 S. 425 E.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing the request? You want to come forward and state you name?

Michael Ford stated, Michael Ford.

President Charles Anderson asked, the commissioners have any questions for Mr. Ford about the subdivision? If there not ready, I’m going to ask the audience if they have any questions about the subdivision, does anybody in the audience have any questions about the subdivision? You want to come forward and state your name please? You want to stay up there so maybe…

Toney Isom stated, Toney Isom, my property borders and I’m against it because if they build houses in there it’s going to force more water on my property. I mean it stays under the water high into the year, it’s a bad situation, its natural drainage thru there.

President Charles Anderson asked, you want to respond to that, you want to give us an idea of what you want to do and why you want to subdivide that piece of property.

Michael Ford stated, well it’s getting to be to more than I want to mow and so forth and I just thought I’d go ahead and sell an acre and I wouldn’t have to bother with it, but I disagree with it being a natural drainage. It’s not a natural drainage, its only higher than that lot, then that lot comes down and it’s higher than me and I’m here and there’s an acre lot and then there’s Toney. Toney is a lot higher than the lot, if anything his water runs down onto that lot, that lot won’t run up hill to him I mean…

President Charles Anderson asked, does that lot fill up when it rains, is it pretty well..

Michael Ford stated, it does fill up when it really rains but you get like 2 or 3 inches but it comes from the field in the back because of the 10 inch tile in the back. The county tile’s not big enough to take the water in. Just when I first lived there, the first 5 years, the whole 4 acres behind my house was all government land. They never farmed it because it always stood in water. After about 4 years living there they came in, spent some money, went over into those woods over there, dug up the tile, took a bunch of roots and stuff out of it. Of course it went right thru the middle of the woods. Of course that helped for about 2 or 3 years but now its back where it’s not taking the water as fast as it should.

President Charles Anderson stated, the building site that would be on that would be lower than both your house and his house wouldn’t it?

Michael Ford stated, yeah, if somebody built a house there, I mean, the first thing there going to have to do there is bring in fill then. There going to have to bring fill in and bring the one side towards the north, that’s where the driveway would come across and then come across the house. Then the side that’s to the south, that’s the low part and my property comes down like this and that property comes down like that, there could be a swale right there, but when it gets to the back that’s where that county drain is and like I said it just doesn’t, can’t take the water.

President Charles Anderson stated, fill would change the drainage of that property to if you filled it up as high or higher than what the neighbors are beside that it would change the drainage somewhat on that, do the commissioners have any questions?

Michael Ford stated, I don’t think you could build it up higher than the neighbor.

President Charles Anderson stated, it would be cost prohibited to do that.

Michael Ford stated, well there’s a hill here and then the property comes down like that and this lot is like here and it just the problem is the road is higher than the property. The road is high and then the property comes down like that and it levels off this way but it comes down off the road.

Toney Isom stated, there’s a culvert on the road now. Cause you cross the road into that.

Don Ward asked, how large is that do you know, how large is that culvert, 12?

Toney Isom stated, I believe its 12 inch.

Don Ward asked, what happens to that water?

Toney Isom stated, it goes down that, that, that, that swale, that’s where that water runs across that ditch down into that soil.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, that makes sense.

Michael Ford stated, there’s hardly any water that comes out of that ….

Don Ward stated, which is what about between the 2 lots here?

Michael Ford stated, pardon?

Don Ward stated, is that swale in between the 2 lots or is it part of? This shows your land is quite a bit higher than this.

Toney Isom stated, but my garden gets under the water…

Michael Ford stated, but the water comes from back …

Harold McGill stated, Harold McGill, I live on the other side of the road which is the natural… This right here is the property here and back over here is Toney and Doug’s or Mike’s property. There talking about 20 foot taller than what they are and the water runs towards the nearest ditch from my place and then from Doug that lives down the road from me, I guess it’s about 1000 feet. There’s a sewer in between us that catches the water from him and that and Doug now has to have a sump pump underneath his house to keep the water out from underneath his house from the water. If we get an inch of rain his sump pump turns on.

Toney Isom stated, this creek back here, I call it a fish pond, it’s a big fish pond here with catfish. It’s always got water in it. I’ve only known of 3 or 4 years of the 17 years I’ve lived down there that it hasn’t been under water. The last 2 inches of rain we got, you can go out and look now, there’s what, about 20 foot out from the beam and your grass is killed where the water came up and killed the grass.

Michael Ford stated, yeah but it doesn’t come from the front, it comes from the back. I’ve stood there, Toney and I have stood there and seen the water come right across that field just come right across there…

Toney Isom stated, it’s a natural drain is what it is, the water, or the ground all slopes to that point. It’s just a natural swamp is what it is.

Michael Ford stated, that’s problem with his…

Harold McGill stated, where a guy would put a sewer in or a septic system in I would have no idea unless it would be upstairs someplace.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah, it would probably have to be a mound system or something like that which would be cost prohibited too.

Harold McGill stated, uh, there’s no place to put a mound system in Charlie. Doug Wiseley has his, he had to put a mound system in his and he had to go back to the back 3 acres. Before Doug bought his house, the guy that bought it before lived, worked at NIPSCO and I lived out in that area in a farmhouse at the time and he put a fiberglass pool in his backyard and it popped up out of the ground 3 times because he has springs back there, but Doug doesn’t have a drain underneath his driveway, the rain comes down and they put a new drain in down by Jim’s house down at the end. Jim Scheller and they brought the next field over from me, there’s one behind me and one beside me. They bought a big drain underneath the road down there and they put a drain in on that side so everything drains down that road but Doug doesn’t have a culvert underneath his driveway so his driveway stops his water.

Toney Isom stated, that maybe something to be checked to because they put dirt, they came out and they redid that drain, the county came out and redid it and then Scheller had tile put around his property and then the water back on the other side of the road starting standing again. Now whether he blocked part of the tile off so the water wouldn’t all run thru cause I know for sure. If you can get rid of the water standing I got nothing against you building over there, I got nothing against you building over there right now if you can figure out the water.

Michael Ford stated, well I don’t want to have water problems either, I’m not planning on selling my house either, I’m planning on living there and I don’t want to make problems for myself either.

Harold McGill stated, sell a house and tell a guy at the same time he’s got a septic system and first time you flush the stool it all pumps out of the ground ….

Toney Isom stated, the only thing I’m worried of, if they start building houses in there and then…

Michael Ford stated, well we're only talking about 1 house, not houses.

Toney Isom stated, even 1, you’ve got to have space.

Harold McGill stated, even 1 house right now, it couldn’t take the water, you could go out there and check it yourselves and see right now it would not take any more water.

Michael Ford stated, well I don’t have any trouble with my septic system, never have.

Harold McGill stated, no, I said, but if you put one more in there then you will because of the water table…

Michael Ford stated, I think if it’s built up and you put a mound system in I don’t think there would be a bit of a problem, the water comes from the back, it’s a natural flow.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah but its still awful low in that area. The building site is real low.

Michael Ford stated, oh it would have to be filled, I mean…

Toney Isom stated, well, that would put it on me then.

Michael Ford stated, Charlie you know, you go by there every day, how often do you see it without water in it?

Harold McGill stated, there aint no easy way to drain that out there.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I don’t think there’s a county tile over there.

Michael Ford stated, there is a county tile that comes across there.

Toney Isom stated, its way out in that field though, probably 150 feet.

Michael Ford stated, it cuts across the field and then it cuts across the corner of Scheller’s lot and then it goes thru Medley’s woods there.

Harold McGill stated, how big a tile is it?

Michael Ford stated, 10 inch.

Dennis Sterrett stated, it’s probably overloaded.

Harold McGill stated, it was put in there and it’s probably a 10 inch tile or 8 inch.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I’m not so sure whether that’s regulated there or not, I’d have to look at my maps.

Michael Ford stated, the county worked on it but that was back in ’89, ‘87’, ’88, ’89, ’90, something like that. It’s been so long ago that …

President Charles Anderson stated, it still didn’t solve all the water problem in there though.

Michael Ford stated, it did for awhile Charlie, and then all of a sudden, bam.

President Charles Anderson stated, then all of a sudden, bam, it started filling back up again. Do the Commissioners have any questions about this?

Dave Scott stated, he’s got almost an acre there on his lot if he decides to build a house there is there anyway he can build retention or equalization ponds or something. Is there room for that on there to instill. Is that not practical or?

Dennis Sterrett stated, well, I imagine there is, I don’t know if he’s got an outlet. Like he said the water comes off the field to that spot too.

Harold McGill stated, see it’s a natural drain. If you go out there and look at it, it starts up here and drops off about 60 foot off that corner. My property sits right over here and its 26 foot drop to that corner.

Michael Ford stated, I mean, I mow that lot every week and the only time I can’t mow is in the back. I can’t mow in the back. I got water in my, on my property, there’s water in the bean field, corn field, whatever it is at the time. There’s, that’s part of the big puddle back there and the edge of it cuts up into my lot. I mow everything except I have to mow around where the water stands in the very back.

Harold McGill stated, well last year the whole lot was covered. Toney, I was trying to help Toney put a fir tree that came out.

Toney Isom stated, one year it almost got to the road.

Harold McGill stated, water was up to here about.

President Charles Anderson asked, is this for both primary and secondary approval?

Director Weaver stated, no, they do not have their drainage approval so it is only coming for primary approval.

Harold McGill stated, if the guy can figure out some kind of a drain and the only way I can think right now is put a 14 inch tile.

President Charles Anderson stated, well this board wouldn’t be able to do that, that would have to go thru the drainage board anyway. The only problem with a subdivision when it comes to us, the only way we can turn a subdivision down if it meets all the requirements of a subdivision if there is some type of a health hazard or heath problem with it.

Harold McGill stated, well there would be a health problem because it just, I wish Doug could do it, I’d like to see it done because you know, it’s a nice property and its nice to have somebody else out there that’s decent neighbors and stuff but if your going to put another septic in there, they are going to be out there everyday pumping it.

Don Ward asked, has this gone, this hasn’t gone to the drainage board has it?

Dennis Sterrett stated, it went to the drainage board, it was sent back to the surveyor for a drainage plan.

Don Ward stated, oh, you have one?

Dennis Sterrett stated, it has been submitted, yes.

Don Ward stated, it hasn’t been submitted. Well we ought to wait and see what happens.

Harold McGill stated, see what happens on that, see if the water is deeper than what we think it is.

Don Ward stated, what do you think?

Dennis Sterrett stated, this is primary. I guess that would be true.

Harold McGill stated, if there’s any way for Doug to do it, I’d like to see him do it, but right now if Doug gets to do it, Doug it’s going to …

President Charles Anderson stated, even if he subdivides that lot off he cant…

Don Ward stated, he can’t fill that lot and put water on you, that’s against the law.

Toney Isom stated, yeah, that’s what’s bothering me.

Harold McGill stated, but he’s appeared, I’d have to put 5 foot of fill on the whole lot just to pour some water on it.

Toney Isom stated, you wouldn’t have to put that much because my garden gets drowned out, I got a garden…

Michael Ford stated, but that comes from the field in the back, it doesn’t come from me.

Toney Isom stated, I don’t care where the waters coming from as long as somebody don’t push it over on me.

Harold McGill stated, if you raise that property that you’re going to build on, raise it up 4 foot of 5 foot so that the water in the back can’t come on to the property then it would be…

President Charles Anderson stated, then it would go out the back end and it would drift over to Toney’s too.

Don Ward stated, I don’t know where Toney’s garden is.

President Charles Anderson stated, it goes a hill again, then it’s just that one hole back in the middle of it. There’s probably a mastodon in the bottom of that.

Don Ward asked, Toney, where’s your garden, where’s your garden?

Toney Isom stated, it’s within 6-7 feet of his property line.

Don Ward stated, okay, it’s in that lower back corner then.

Toney Isom stated, right, right on the corner.

Don Ward stated, well he’s lower yet than you are so he’s going to get more water than you do, he’s 2 feet lower than yours.

President Charles Anderson stated, we got one more out there, Fred you want to come forward.

Fred Minnick stated, he just said what I wanted to say, I just want to say one thing.

Attorney Altman stated, wait wait wait, okay.

President Charles Anderson stated, you want to state your name. You want to state your name Fred.

Fred Minnick stated, I’m Fred Minnick, I’m sorry. He’s a catch 22. He’s got an extra acre, I think he’s subdividing it off where the other lot would be .89 something acres if I’m not mistaken when I came in and looked at the plans the other day. Yeah, I’d like to give up mowing that much land to, but if there building a house, it’s not just the septic that’s going to be a problem. Most houses in this area also have crawl spaces, that thing would be under water all the time. I will agree that most of the water comes off the field as it was approved either 2 or 3 years ago when almost the entire lot was covered in corn stalks that washed in out of the field to the point that I believe you had to burn them off didn’t you.

Michael Ford stated, well I had to rake them off yeah.

Harold McGill stated, if I might say, my name is Harold McGill again, that Wisner that lives right across the street again has to have a sump pump under his house all the time. For every time it rains.

Fred Minnick stated, you’d certainly have to on this lot.

Harold McGill stated, they were supposed to have been here tonight but said he couldn’t come.

President Charles Anderson stated, commissioners have any other questions? You want to table this until we get the ..

Don Ward stated, yeah, I think it should be tabled until we see the drainage plan and see how they handle the water.

President Charles Anderson asked, is that kosher to this?

Attorney Altman stated, yes it is, it’s very appropriate.

President Charles Anderson stated, so I, we need a…

Attorney Altman stated, motion.

President Charles Anderson stated, motion, we need a motion to table this.

Don Ward stated, I make a motion that we table this until we get a drainage plan and can see what’s going to happen.

President Charles Anderson stated, all in favor of that, you want to second that motion first.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I’ll second that

President Charles Anderson stated, all in favor of that motion raise your right hand. There we go, it’s tabled till the next meeting.

Attorney Altman stated, it will come back to the next meeting, okay, no matter what, but if we don’t have a approved drainage plan it will be tabled again, okay. I really can’t speak for the board but I guess they wouldn’t change their mind, so that’s what you really need okay Mr. Ford.

Michael Ford stated, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, very good.


#07-8 TSCR, LLC; Requesting Primary approval of a Planned Unit Development to be known as Lakewood Condominiums on Lot Numbers 3, 4, 5 and 6 in Frank R. Burch’s Lakeside Second Addition, located in the City of Monticello at 208-214 N. Beach Drive. Tabled from October 9, 2007.

President Charles Anderson stated, you want to quit it down right now.

Attorney Altman stated, excuse me, were going ahead with our meeting.

President Charles Anderson stated, we tabled this from our last meeting because we wanted some more information. The Commissioners received some of that information. Do you have more information to?

Charlie Roberts stated, I do. Charlie Roberts. I just got these from Mr. Stimmell.

Don Ward stated, I’m sorry I didn’t get back with you today, but I got busy and I thought for a rezone you didn’t need all this but the rules say you do.

Charlie Roberts stated, I believe we got the vast majority of what you were looking for.

President Charles Anderson asked, did you find out from the Building Inspector as far as the construction…

Charlie Roberts stated, I looked everywhere for prints…

President Charles Anderson asked, did you talk to Dave about coming by and looking at the building?

Charlie Roberts stated, I didn’t, myself and, I thought about it today but no, it just didn’t happen.

Gerald Cartmell stated, my only question is why didn’t you get these a week ago or something where we’d have time to look them over.

Charlie Roberts stated, I just…

Gerald Cartmell stated, were running off blind sited.

Charlie Roberts stated, I just stated that Mr. Stine finished them today. I’ve been trying to get him to get them done to no avail but you know, nevertheless there’s more, he still has the elevation to do which he said would be forthcoming in the next day or so with Don, Mr. Ward wanted. This has the all the lot descriptions as requested to be broke down for the green areas, the asphalt, the electric lines, pretty much everything is here except for the elevations and... This here is the rough sketch, I only have 4 copies of this, I mean, that’s how pressed he was making copies.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, okay, Don and I can share one.

Charlie Roberts stated, just a few minutes before we came up here.

Attorney Altman stated, we need one for the file.

Charlie Roberts stated, as you can see there stairs going down for lake access. On the second page of the big drawings is the description for the upstairs.

Attorney Altman stated, are you, condominium this or how are you treating the management of the improvements, the outs exterior, and the building for that and etc, etc.

Charlie Roberts stated, well once we receive primary approval the attorney will work that out. There will be an association to take care of the outside maintenance, lawn mowing, snow plowing, the tenants eventually will be able to take care of some. It’s just like any other condo association several will…

Attorney Altman stated, it won’t be tenants.

Charlie Roberts stated, pardon me

Attorney Altman stated, it won’t be tenants right.

Charlie Roberts stated, ok, the owners will elect a president, vice president, secretary, treasurer, you know and take care of it. We will not be.

President Charles Anderson stated, so this has to go from us to the city and then come back to us for the for it to be a secondary plat of this, is that what that is or…

Don Ward stated, yeah, secondary approval is final approval.

Attorney Altman stated, as I understand basically this is before us for a rezoning vote on PUD and then the primary plat you know is like a subdivision primary plat.

President Charles Anderson stated, which this plats not going to change its going to stay the same forever because its what it is other than, how do we know what’s inside this building as far as turning it into condominiums?

Don Ward stated, well we don’t, he doesn’t have the cross section to show us what is going on, that’s…

President Charles Anderson asked, do we need that for the primary? Or do we need that for…

Don Ward stated, yeah, I think we need that for primary and we’ve asked it from everyone else.

President Charles Anderson stated, which we’d need, if they can’t find how it was built or the specifications it was built by they’d have to have somebody inspect that.

Don Ward stated, I thought since it was a rezone, we didn’t need all that but the book says we do. You have to have the either the amount for primary or secondary in order to rezone.

Attorney Altman stated, it’s what it says.

Don Ward stated, to a PUD and we, we don’t have enough for a primary so we don’t have enough to rezone. We need elevations and cross sections of the building.

Charlie Roberts stated, and those can be forthcoming, he told me in the next day or so he would have those finished. I mean its not that we haven’t attempted to try and get this.

Don Ward stated, I know you’ve tried and all that but we haven’t had a chance to look it over and all that.

Attorney Altman stated, you want until you get all that.

President Charles Anderson asked, when you say cross section what exactly do you mean by cross sections?

Don Ward stated, section thru the building so you can see how its constructed, how the roof sits and stuff like that, you know, like we got from Shafer Shores and then they gave an elevation to show basically what it looks like.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, are those required on an existing building because on that other one it was an existing building. It’s going to be a new construction.

Don Ward stated, well.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, is there some type of grandfathering that applies here because the building exists?

President Charles Anderson stated, well it didn’t exist as a condominium.

Attorney Altman stated, it would as a rental is what Doc’s saying here. But since you’re changing that use it’s not grandfathered.

President Charles Anderson, as a rental it would be grandfathered into that.

Don Ward stated, in a way, if you look at from a different viewpoint and say its more important to have that on a existing building than it is on a new one because the new one has to follow all the state codes and the old one would not have to particularly being built according to the state code of today so its how you look at it.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, so they are saying that in a few days they will have that, right.

Don Ward stated, yeah.

Charlie Roberts stated, yes. Yeah but didn’t it have to pass stated codes that were in existence in 1978.

Don Ward stated, pardon.

Charlie Roberts stated, the state codes that were in existence in 1978 had to have a state stamp of approval.

Don Ward stated, you probably had it back then or they should have had it, I don’t know whether they did or not but they should have had it because it was a public building but codes change.

Attorney Altman stated, but that’s why Don was trying to say, if you go get that and bring it to us then you might save, I know you’ve tried to do that guys, I don’t mean that, but what Don was trying to anticipate and save a bunch of money by steering you toward the right thing to bring back.

Don Ward stated, I didn’t realize you needed all this just for the rezone which is what you’re asking for tonight is to rezone. I thought what you had was probably adequate to rezone but the book says you got to have either the same amount for primary or a secondary in order for us to vote to rezone. I didn’t realize that.

Charlie Roberts asked, same amount of what.

Attorney Altman stated, information.

Don Ward stated, same as you have to have for primary approval. And you didn’t know it in time even if I’d known it and told you you didn’t have time to get it ready so. This actually should be submitted so that we got a week or 2 weeks in advance and stuff to do.

Tim Schaffer asked, so what do we need? What do we need to get this done?

Don Ward stated, well you still need to finish out the cross section and the of the building to give us an idea of how its constructed and the lets see what else do we need, you should have an elevation to view to show, you know you should have side elevation, front elevation, which that’s quite a bit of work, but show us the what the situation is.

Tim Schaffer asked, this is all pertinent to the existing structure.

Don Ward stated, well I don’t think it matters whether it’s new or not, I mean, I don’t see it being different. Like I said, it could even be more restrictive for us if its and existing building because we can say we don’t know if it was approved by the state or not approved, we don’t have any plans, so we don’t know.

Tim Schaffer asked, would the state have plans?

Don Ward stated, they might have, I doubt it, but they would probably know if they approved it which which, back, however many years it was and the code may have changed but it wouldn’t have changed a lot.

Charlie Roberts stated, Charlie Roberts again, if your questioning Joe Millers, he built a lot of things here in Monticello, I …

Don Ward stated, that doesn’t matter, that doesn’t matter if he built the Empire State Building, its this building were concerned with and whether or not he did that. I don’t doubt whether he’s a good builder and all that, I’m not questioning that at all. It looked to me like a good building because I just went down and looked at it. But this is going to go on record and were trying to set up in a way so all of them are alike so we’ve got a system and I gave you pretty much what Shafer Shores gave us and that looked pretty good and gave us some idea of what’s going on. They have to go thru the state and get everything approved thru them, structurally, electrically, plumbing wise and all that so we don’t have to worry too much about that. We don’t know, we could get really restrictive and say we want plumbing plans, electrical plans, we want all that because we don’t know, but were not going to do that I don’t think, were going to get the little basics and get it over with.

Tim Schaffer stated, well tell us what you need and we’ll come back another day I guess.

Director Weaver asked, Charlie I have a question for you, when you were in looking for the building plans I know you and Dave went down to the basement and looked down there, what about the Council room, did you go into the Council room and look in the office there?

Charlie Roberts stated, is that in his office.

Director Weaver stated, no that’s next door, the room next door.

Attorney Altman stated, the room next door.

Charlie Roberts stated, he just told me that all that was there was lots and lots and lots of maps.

Director Weaver stated, well the ones in his office are the most current. The older ones are in the basement but I do know that when we moved out of the council room when we remodeled that not all of those were taken out of that room, so I’ll try if I get a chance or have one of my girls go over and see if maybe they might be in that room.

Attorney Altman stated, save you a bunch of money is what were…

Charlie Roberts stated, yeah, I went to the fire station to see.

Attorney Altman stated, I know, and we don’t want you to rediscover the wheel if it’s out there. And I think with this kid coming to us tonight and not being able to review it, it only makes sense to let them have it for a month here, get the other stuff to us, have it for a month and then next month we know what were dealing with and have it here.

Don Ward stated, yeah, I hate to delay it I mean, I don’t care whether we vote or not, if you want to vote, fine, I don’t care, but if your going to have everything for the primary approval for this you might as well ask for primary approval next time too.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that’d be appropriate if they get there stuff.

Don Ward stated, just ask for rezone, primary approval, if you get the rezone then ask for primary approval.

President Charles Anderson stated, but then it would delay them a month because it would have to go back to the…

Attorney Altman stated, but there going to get delayed that way effectively anyways Charlie.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, is there a way you can vote and make it contingent upon…

President Charles Anderson stated, ask our lawyer?

Jim Mann Jr. stated, a couple members of the…

Don Ward stated, no you can’t do that.

Attorney Altman stated, its awful tuff to do.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, no, I’m just asking questions.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, I understand, its awful tough to do.

President Charles Anderson stated, besides that, like we said before, for you to get a positive recommendation all 6 of us would have to vote yes on it.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, it’s the same thing.

Don Ward stated, yes, that’s another thing.

Attorney Altman stated, I really think to do the best service for you guys and have the best product a month would be a really good investment here to get that back.

Don Ward stated, and then ask for primary approval as well. So if you get the rezone, then go for primary approval.

Attorney Altman stated, with that stuff that Dons talking about you will have the information to ask for that.

Charlie Roberts asked, is there anyway for me to call, I mean everyone here knows about it, is there a way to not wait a whole month, I mean, if we come up with this stuff in the next few days?

Don Ward stated, we don’t do that I don’t think. We never have and I don’t think we ever will. We don’t do that right.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s right, we haven’t.

Director Weaver stated, we haven’t on a planned unit development, no.

Don Ward stated, it has to be advertised, all kind of stuff.

Charlie Roberts stated, okay, so, we know what we need then.

Dave Scott stated, even if they got the primary they’d have to come back next month for secondary approval anyways.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah but this puts them 2 months down the road.

Attorney Altman stated, this would put them back a month, there’s no question about it. But it would also have it so they could be ready.

Don Ward stated, but what I’m saying is when they get the thing ready for primary by next month they can ask for the rezone as soon as that passes they can ask for the primary approval.

Director Weaver stated, well that really is one step wrapped together. The primary is your rezone, primary approval.

Don Ward stated, its all one thing, so when you get one you got the other.

President Charles Anderson asked, the primary would be the secondary too?

Director Weaver stated, no. No. The rezone step to change the zoning to a PUD is basically there primary approval as well.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, so that means in January they would get the secondary.

Attorney Altman stated, if everything moved like they’re hoping to.

Charlie Roberts stated, if everything was ready for next month why couldn’t we go ahead and do secondary then.

Director Weaver stated, primary has to go to the City Council and have their approval.

President Charles Anderson stated, you got another board to go thru. So I take it were going to table this till the next meeting.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I got a question. On these upper, you got two upper descriptions.

Charlie Roberts stated, yes, as far as I know, I mean I just came literally…

Dennis Sterrett stated, is that all that’s, is the upper is these 2, and they go with the bottom units?

Charlie Robert stated, there separate.

Don Ward asked, is that all worked out on here?

Charlie Roberts stated, it is, well it still has to be worded, he had an issue with the stairs and he called the Tippecanoe APC and Surveyor and they said that was doable and it was no problem to do it that way.

Don Ward stated, you better do that by next month because were going to ask for that I’m sure.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess what were saying is that sort of organization is pretty … by that I mean its not, you got to personalize it but its, goes on and on and on so if you get it ready you anticipate those questions, you don’t have the problem later on.

Don Ward stated, it would be a good idea to talk to Dave Anderson, and maybe you already have I don’t know about what he thinks too.

President Charles Anderson stated, Dave can tell you, you know, if your fire walls are alright.

Charlie Roberts stated, yeah, they are, I think he thought it would be good to find hard wired…

Director Weaver stated, I knew, I knew that you had talked to him, yeah.

Charlie Roberts stated, yeah, we did do that, so, but we will make sure that we …

Don Ward stated, I think the wiring should all be 12 gauge minimum, you know, things like that, I don’t know, the plumbing are hard to go thru, we could ask for that to but I don’t think we want to go that far. I don’t see anything, the need to do that, but you might get Dave to go take a look at the wiring and make sure it’s a minimum of 12 gauge, matches the state, I’m sure it is. Well I shouldn’t say I’m sure, but I’m pretty sure it is because that’s state requirement, no 14 gauge wire and the plumbing is near impossible to check out, if its working it works and plumbing is something that if it gives trouble, it gives trouble, and it always gives trouble until its corrected so, it must be working or you’d have a hell of a lot of complaints. That’s not a problem. It’s just, make sure the fire walls and all that kind of stuff is correct and kind of get a cross section thru the building so we can see what the roof system is a little bit and some elevations so we can see what the deal is, this goes on record for probably forever I’m sure, till the court house burns down. I think basically that’s it isn’t it.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah.

President Charles Anderson asked, you going to make a motion on tabling this or we just tabling it?

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, make a motion.

Don Ward stated, were not going to ask for any other details I don’t think.

President Charles Anderson asked, you want to make a motion to table this?

Don Ward stated, I make a motion we table it until all the information for primary approval is submitted.

Charlie Roberts asked, Diann, are we on the list for the next meeting?

Director Weaver stated, pardon me.

Charlie Roberts asked, are we on the list for next meeting?

Director Weaver stated, I will put you on the list for the next meeting unless you call me and let me know you want otherwise.

Attorney Altman asked, you second that Doc or did you ask for…

President Charles Anderson asked, I said I asked for a second, did anybody second it?

Attorney Altman stated, yep.


President Charles Anderson stated, okay, next on the agenda would be business and I guess I got some business to talk to you guys about. You’re going to get another one of these planned developments next month that’s my daughter in law and sons.

Director Weaver stated, maybe, she doesn’t have anything to us yet.

Don Ward asked, another one?

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah, but…

Don Ward stated, we can’t stand anymore.

President Charles Anderson stated, well this is a blue door cottages that they’ve completely remodeled all these cottages out there. Well know they’ve bought the restaurant across the street and all those lots along the back to. What they want to do is maintain the cottages as a business and there going to remodel, they were completely remodeled all the cottages and there going to remodel the business itself and they want to make the whole thing a planned unit development so your going to have the cottages as rentals, your going to have the restaurant, and your going to have 4 condos that they want to build on the side of the lake there.

Don Ward stated, that they can sell.

President Charles Anderson stated, that they can sell.

Don Ward asked, why don’t they separate those 4 condos out and leave the rest of it alone.

President Charles Anderson stated, probably because green space.

Don Ward stated, oh.

President Charles Anderson asked, how much green space does it say that you get?

Director Weaver stated, well part of the parking for the restaurant is across the street.

President Charles Anderson stated, part of the parking for the restaurant is across the street too.

Don Ward stated, oh.

Dave Scott stated, I’d like to ask a question. Is there a way that we can get a committee of fellows, Don in particular, and a couple guys in the know to meet with these people and these PUDs prior to these meetings.

President Charles Anderson stated, and tell them what they exactly need.

Dave Scott stated, and tell them exactly what they need.

Don Ward stated, well that’s the technical committee.

Director Weaver stated, your proposed ordinance does that. The new one that we’ve been working on does that.

Dave Scott stated, well because you know they come in here and we kind of him haw around, we delay people from month to month and you know that’s not being fair to them and its not being fair to us either.

Attorney Altman stated, our ordinance is very specific, it says you do what the preliminary plat requirements are for a subdivision. It doesn’t say you go out and you do a little rain dance, it says you look at the preliminary plat requirements for a subdivision. Our sub dividers don’t seem to find that difficult getting that done Dave and I don’t understand why a Planned Unit Development wouldn’t be able to find the same guidance in that requirement.

Dave Scott stated, well it just seems like both sides are struggling here to,…

Don Ward stated, but were asking for the same thing, primary approval, that’s a lot more than just for a subdivision.

President Charles Anderson asked, well here’s something I want to ask.. Is she going to have to have cross sections for all those remodels? See there different.

Don Ward stated, well you’d probably need 1 cross section thru the condominium, you might need 1 thru 1 of the rentals, if there going to throw that in. And then the business is another problem. I mean we could really get nasty if we want to.

Attorney Altman stated, and sometimes you should.

Don Ward stated, because there existing buildings and we could say we want proof that this thing fits the state requirements, the state law.

President Charles Anderson stated, well there going to completely re-do the business itself.

Don Ward stated, well they’ll probably have to take that thru the administrative building council and the condominiums as well because I think once you get over 30,000 cubic feet, that’s the way the law was, you had to go thru them. I’m not doing building work anymore and I don’t, I haven’t kept up with it, but maybe Dave knows more.

President Charles Anderson stated, well she’s going to have to, she’s going to do that, but what I need to know is will she need that other information, I also need to know is we never have enough people here, since I’m the dad, I cant vote.

Don Ward stated, well if she has, whoever it is, has to go thru the state, then there already going to have all that stuff. Because they will have to have it to go thru the state. That’s what they want. They want to know what you’re going to do. How you’re going to do it.

President Charles Anderson stated, it’s already an existing business, even in the restaurant. So the restaurant could open the way it is right now.

Don Ward stated, alright but when you say there redoing it all though.

President Charles Anderson stated, right, they’re going to redo it. But its not, they wont redo that, that would be another phase down the road as far as redoing the restaurant.

Don Ward stated, I don’t know, I think you ought to talk to Dave.

President Charles Anderson stated, well Dave…

Don Ward asked, is Dave involved? But he still knows.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah he knows.

Don Ward stated, what he knows is, you know, he’s not going to stand there and lie to us.

President Charles Anderson stated, but she’ll do all this. I mean, she’ll, but would you want cross sections of all those, basically built all the same and they were completely remodeled.

Don Ward stated, 1 for everything that’s built the same.

President Charles Anderson stated, there’s a little bit difference in size in them.

Don Ward stated, well that would matter that much, we just want to see…

President Charles Anderson stated, but the basic condo that they would build would be a basement out to the water, middle floor, and a top floor.

Don Ward stated, but there going to, there going to have to go thru the state on it.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah.

Don Ward stated, because you got 4 units tied together.

President Charles Anderson stated, well there will be 3 units on 1 side of this and 1 unit on the other side. There not tied together, they’ll each have their own individual lots.

Don Ward stated, oh, there all separate. Like a house.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah. That would be sold off, I mean, cause, on planned unit developments, you can sell lots off of Planned Unit Developments, those will be sold as individual.

Don Ward stated, they would be just sold as an individual home. Well I don’t know that we can, we didn’t do those on the ones down south. We didn’t go into all that detail when, of course they were all new.

President Charles Anderson stated, but this is going to be…

Attorney Altman stated, there a new construction.

Don Ward stated, they weren’t built.

President Charles Anderson stated, but what I don’t understand is, this is going to be a planned unit development now how do they get deeds for these things off of that?

Don Ward stated, well like they were selling a house.

Attorney Altman stated, usually they get, the basically, their sold rights to an area Doc plus the rights to access, now I’m using layman’s terms but you get unit number 8 together with unit number 8 gives you the right to park in such and such a place and to use this green area thus and so and to get in and out in a certain recognized path, okay, so that’s what I was telling him about you organize your condo. It’s it it’s a legal jargon but it basically gives you the right to have that. When my son bought a, well it would be a PUD, a condo in Indianapolis, he bought lot number 34. But that gave him the right to do certain things and that’s set out in the bylaws if you will.

President Charles Anderson stated, so the PUD makes their own bylaws.

Don Ward stated, maybe we should sit down and say we’re going to set this as our minimum requirements for a PUD of an existing setup or new setup

Attorney Altman stated, that’s a good idea.

Don Ward stated, and we should do that so then they know that this is the minimum were going to accept when you come in here. And right now we don’t have that to hand to them and we don’t know, I’m trying to just kind of protect our rear end.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay, here’s another question I got, there’s going to be, there’s 6 lots on the water front. They’re going to, 3 to the, would be to the south, there going to be 3 individual condo’s. The 2 that the restaurant sit on hold the restaurant and then the 1 to the north would be an individual condos what it would be. How about the restaurant? Do you want, the way, I mean it can be used as a restaurant the way it is right now, do you want them to scale that to what it is right now and show what’s in there right now.

Don Ward stated, well I think we need, we need accurate floor plans for one thing.

President Charles Anderson stated, of that too.

Don Ward stated, we need to know where, if there are firewalls where there supposed to be.

President Charles Anderson stated, well it wouldn’t be, you know, they got a …

Don Ward stated, they may not have to have it.

President Charles Anderson stated, they got a water structure above the kitchen for a, how do I, it would be a small water that would go off if something, if the kitchen caught on fire.

Don Ward stated, I see.

President Charles Anderson stated, there’s something like that already in it. But there’s an existing steel structure that sits out in front of this that the previous owner was going to build out to but they wont use that yet, but eventually they probably use that, but that will be in the next phase when they remodel that thing, there going to do some this summer.

Don Ward stated, I think probably what were going to have to do as a group is we’re going to have to sit down and decide what we want. All I’m trying to do is kind of cover our butt a little bit, that’s all.

President Charles Anderson stated, well, she’s got a booklet already printed up with a lot of the different things, but I need to know this information to give her because Diann doesn’t know exactly what to tell people either.

Don Ward stated, we don’t know because we never said anything, never established anything.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, well it’s not really that clear in the PUD part of it.

Director Weaver stated, its not, especially in this book.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, so when you’re talking to Don, and I appreciate your expertise, but when were telling them for cross sections and stuff, I don’t read it in here unless I’m missing it. Is it inherent in the site plan when someone does a site plan that it should be on there?

Don Ward stated, no, no.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, no, okay, well it does talk about site plan. I’m kind of like Dave. I’d like to see us set up a group of people.

President Charles Anderson stated, well Heidi, she’s done everything that she thinks is in that book, she’s already got it done, but then Diann said she needed the cross sections of the…

Director Weaver stated, I told her, she didn’t have a survey. She didn’t have a survey showing the proposed building, she had her own drawing, but not a actual survey.

President Charles Anderson stated, as far as a survey of…

Director Weaver stated, just like this, she doesn’t have that.

President Charles Anderson asked, but, is it, it’s supposed to be of the whole development or the lots in front?

Director Weaver stated, the whole development.

Attorney Altman stated, whole development yeah, yeah.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I’m thinking about Sharon Garbison’s thing tonight, what’s the BZA going to do with that?

President Charles Anderson stated, I don’t think they’d pass it.

Director Weaver stated, I really wish that I had known she was planning on doing this rezoning before she went to the BZA the last time.

Dave Scott stated, I’d say the bare minimum she probably have to have the commitment that goes back as soon as this use is done and it goes back to the other zoning and I'm not sure it would pass then.

Attorney Altman asked, do we want to adjourn?

Director Weaver stated, I think we need to update them on some lawsuits. Meadowbrook.

Attorney Altman stated, oh, Meadowbrook, yeah. Meadowbrook, they basically, there, there’s about 4 people in line that have own this piece of ground and their, it’s getting close to a hearing, court hearing but before that we are going to have mediation down in Joe Bumbleburg’s office and mediate it and basically what it amounts to, believe it or not, John Freeman was talking, his lawyer was talking about putting up money for improvements and that kind of amazed me. I can tell you that, report that, and until the facts of life were explained to Mr. Jennings he thought he was out of everything and then his lawyer was told how that he basically had not given the next person full information about the lawsuit and I think those of you that have been on here for very long know that he came before us talking to us about how he could make the subdivision work. He basically sold it on to Russell like there was no problems, so he’s picked up some real liability there, so he’s going to probably put in some money. And then Russell is talking about in fact making it into a good subdivision is what I think. And with the money involved she may well do it too.

Don Ward stated, well what will she do, abandon the one that’s there and then start over?

Attorney Altman stated, well I she does, then obviously that presents a real interesting question on damages. But I don’t know that she will. I guess if she’s going to do that, I told them basically I had the authority to put in the subdivision the way it was or abandoned and go back to dirt you know, go back to acreage. They’ve come to us and asked us for an interpretation and evaluation of how much improvement must be put in Diann. That’s something that I just gave you today that we got from…

Director Weaver stated, I didn’t even get to look at it.

Attorney Altman stated, one of the lawyers involved in the case so we will probably be talking to you about evaluating and putting that down in black and white Don. Anything else about that?

Director Weaver stated, I think that’s the only one. Yeah, I think that’s the only one.

Attorney Altman stated, I was going to say I was trying to think if there were any others.

Director Weaver stated, I just knew we had met on that one so I thought we should update them. What I have here I just wanted to give some of you guys a heads up I show Jim Mann that your term expires the end of the year so you are either up for reappointment or whatever. Don Ward I show that yours is up the first Monday in January. And Bob Thomas I also show that he’s up the end of the year. So I just wanted to forewarn you guys that we will be sending letters out to the city so they can reappoint or whatever they want to do.

Dave Scott asked, why isn’t there a spot on this for the Building Inspector?

Attorney Altman stated, it just isn’t in the enabling statute is the only reason. It’s like there is one for Greg Bossaer’s position, there is one for the Surveyor. I’m trying to figure out what else.

Director Weaver stated, I think it’s probably cause we deal with more with land development not with structures.

Gerald Cartmell stated, need one for a fireman to I think.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that’s excellent. I’m glad you’re on here.

Gerald Cartmell stated, yeah but I’m just a volunteer I don’t know half as much as the regular guys do.

Director Weaver stated, yeah, we did use to have one.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah we used to have …

Director Weaver stated, Steve Fischer.

Attorney Altman stated, Steve Fischer.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, oh, he’d be a good one.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, he was excellent. He knew what he was talking about.

President Charles Anderson stated, catches on fire, stay on the upwind side of it.

Don Ward stated, what do you guys think we ought to ask for as a minimum on this PUD tonight. Am I asking for to much to have a elevation view and a cross section thru the building? I mean that maybe more than what we want. Maybe we don’t want to mess with that.

President Charles Anderson asked, elevation you mean…

Don Ward stated, just a cross section that shows the lower floor, the second floor. Like they had, like that architect brought in for that other one. In a way, as I said, it’s more critical when you have an existing building when you have a new building because the state controls the new building and we don’t have to worry about that stuff.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree with you Don. I really do.

Don Ward stated, and you know, we don’t know whether the damn plumbing works or the electrical wiring is 12 gauge, 10 gauge, or 14 gauge or what it is. We don’t know any of that stuff so we don’t know whether it was passed even back 30 years ago.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah.

Don Ward stated, so you don’t know where you’re going to stop.

Dave Scott stated, that’s why we ought to have at least, if nothing more a group get together and put down what we do and don’t want to do…

Don Ward stated, that’s a good idea, I think we really need to set our rules and say this is it and…

Dave Scott stated, I mean even though it’s in the book.

Attorney Altman stated, I think it would be very nice. I think it would be very nice to have that list.

Director Weaver stated, I agree.

Attorney Altman stated, and I think you just did about 4 of them and maybe we can next month come back and maybe we’d have those 4 laid out in sort of a memo form Diann and the board can maybe add 1 or two more or say that’s enough and then Diann has something to hand to them.

President Charles Anderson stated, so we want a survey, cross section, elevation.

Don Ward stated, we want a survey, naturally, you got to have that, you got to have a plot plan of the property, it should show the existing things and lines, and the proposed things in dark lines so you can see, so if a tree stays you leave it dark, if it goes its dashed out. The plot plan should show fences, existing buildings, a lot of things, anything. The driveway, parking areas, and the whole works, and then they can go over that in dark and they can show what there going to do.

Dave Scott stated, and you may be missing something and we need to take some time and spell this out and put in…

Attorney Altman stated, the electrical would be something else to add.

Dave Rosebarger stated, yeah, I agree Dave.

Don Ward stated, well the only thing I would know if we did anything like that is we’d have to have somebody inspect the wiring and plumbing and…

President Charles Anderson stated, a electrical contractor do it or something.

Don Ward stated, either a contractor or have, Dave probably has his hands full now, he probably doesn’t have time to go inspect that. I talked to the head of the plumbing department several years ago at the state and he was a professional plumber himself and he had had 250 plumbers working for him at one time and he explained to me that if you have a plumbing problem it will show up every so many years or maybe ever so many months and it will continue to do that forever until you fix the problem. He said I assure you that’s the way it works because I went in with a problem in plumbing and I got to talking to him and he he showed me all about it. But he said if you put a problem in plumbing it stays and it will always be there and it will eventually pluck and it will cause trouble. And so that’s what I said tonight. If the damn stuff is working now, maybe they don’t have any problems you know. The wiring should be checked. The state law said, or it did say, I’m sure it is probably as restricted now as it was then, you can’t have anything less than 12 gauge and 14 gauge wire is out. And kind of things like that, I don’t know, you know, you don’t like to get on top of them and like I said its more difficult with an existing setup than it is with a new one. A lot more. And I don’t give a damn if we don’t ask for anything if you want to know the truth. It’s easier on us if we say oh give us the plot plan, show us what basically you are going to do and some photographs of the existing building and let it go. We could also ask for photographs which wouldn’t be a bad idea.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah but if you get one like in southern White County, we didn’t pass so far, I mean, that’s a monster, how the hell are we supposed to do that.

Gerald Cartmell stated, not your problem.

President Charles Anderson stated, well it’s in White County, part of it was.

Gerald Cartmell stated, yeah, but it’s just not your problem. It’s there problem to present it to us.

Attorney Altman stated, I think photographs is a pretty nice thing to add to that.

Don Ward stated, yeah I do too.

Attorney Altman stated, because it tells an awful lot, photographs of each improvement maybe.

Don Ward stated, it wouldn’t even be that if they took photographs and put a few dimensions on the photographs.

President Charles Anderson stated, well this is what Heidi prospect what she has shows before and after the remodel on all these houses and things like that. It’s got an aieral photo of all the units.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah Ariel photo too because everybody can google earth now.

President Charles Anderson stated, side views of the lake front.

Attorney Altman stated, and it’s no money spent.

Dave Scott stated, see the other thing, and not, I keep jumping back to this but we need to have it documented because Don may not be here next year and I guarantee if they come in here and I’m sitting here, we don’t know the questions to ask but if its down…

Attorney Altman stated, that’s why this is a nice, that’s why I’m glad Diann is writing this down, I saw her doing that. You know, photos, google earth photo if nothing else.

Director Weaver stated, that’s also why we can’t lose Don.

Don Ward stated, how much protection do we need or how much protection do we need to provide to the people who are buying the planned unit development elements. Because if you, you know, normally when you have a contractor build something you probably get a pretty good job. If a guy builds a house himself and sells it you don’t know whether the plumbing is right, wrong, the wiring is right, wrong, you don’t know anything about it. And a friend of mine is an engineer on a Area Plan Commission for years in Wells County and one of their major problems over there was they were kind of in a boom area, people building their own houses and selling them. Then they had nothing but troubles. Or they’d build an apartment building themselves and they sell it.

Dave Scott stated, but now it doesn’t make any difference because now you have to get a permit and Dave goes out and before you can move in you get an occupancy permit.

Director Weaver stated, he does inspect it, but…

Don Ward stated, they have that to, they had that back then…

Director Weaver stated, but there are different, there’s some difference between if you’re building it for someone and if you’re building it for someone else. And I can’t tell you what those differences are but it does make a difference.

Don Ward stated, well it’s like if I would want to build a apartment building and I design that building myself which I could do legally, the insurance would be very skeptical about insuring it, ill tell you that right now. Because I could cut corners all the way around and get away with it. Whereas an architect designing it for me wouldn’t do that, so the insurance companies are quick to pick all that up. They now.

President Charles Anderson stated, so you’re saying don’t rent an apartment off of you.

Don Ward stated, also I think the banks would be skeptical about loaning the money for it.

Attorney Altman stated, so you’re protecting them all the way around.

Don Ward stated, and I think they are right about doing that.

Attorney Altman stated, I’ll tell you what, why don’t everybody maybe think about adding 1 thing to this list.

President Charles Anderson stated, I think we got quite a few of them on there.

Attorney Altman stated, oh I think, I’m just saying and then we bounce them off next, then we’d have a complete one Doc. And maybe we wouldn’t add anything to them.

Don Ward stated, I think we need to keep it simple as possible.

President Charles Anderson stated, we’ll be a whole lot smarter after 2 of them next month anyways.

Don Ward stated, but it needs to protect the people somewhat that are buying those units. Somehow.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, is there a way we can with another county or two to see how they handle this, on PUDs?

Dave Scott stated, especially like Tippecanoe County or something.

Director Weaver stated, I think they do have a committee.

President Charles Anderson stated, now if she just wanted to sell those lots off to she could do that too, she wouldn’t have to put a building on it.

Don Ward stated, yeah, you don’t need to build on it.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I really do, I think it would really help you a lot Diann.

Director Weaver stated, oh, I know it would.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, it would help you, it would help the board, the public…

Director Weaver stated, and the new ordinance.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I know it sounds like were making more work for us but actually in a way I don’t think we are because if we get this where were tuning it in its going to make it easier in the long run.

Attorney Altman stated, people could come in tonight with everything to lay down, bing, bing, bing, we approve it.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, we can’t help Charlie and Tim that didn’t have everything together, I mean, they appeared to understand everything they didn’t have. They may be frustrated, but they appeared to understand what they didn’t, you know.

Attorney Altman stated, I agree.

Don Ward stated, they didn’t deserve approval anyways even if they had the other because they didn’t have the cross sections. They didn’t get it to us on time, we have to have time to look at it.

President Charles Anderson stated, so it’s on time plus we asked them to have Dave go thru it too and he hasn’t done that either.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, we sure did.

President Charles Anderson stated, if Dave would get over there cause, of course he’s got a guy working with him to doesn’t he?

Director Weaver stated, Mike, yeah.

Don Ward stated, we need a system though that’s straight forward and simplified enough that they can read it and understand it and gives us what they need and we need to do it enough to cover us so what we think we need to be covered. And to cover us we need, were covering the people who are going to buy the planned unit development.

Gerald Cartmell stated, I think we need to put the young man in charge.

Don Ward asked, what did he say?

Attorney Altman stated, you know what he said.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, selected hearing.

Gerald Cartmell stated, we need to put Mr. Ward in charge because he knows it.

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s exactly right.

Director Weaver stated, and he does.

Gerald Cartmell stated, you know we got to pick up the crumbs because there’s a lot of stuff we don’t know.

Attorney Altman asked, anything else?

Don Ward stated, the problem is there’s a lot of stuff that I don’t know either.

President Charles Anderson stated, you’re like me, you’ve forgotten more than most people ever learned.

Attorney Altman stated, when it comes to hogs or animals, yeah, you’re right.

Don Ward stated, we have a certain responsibility and the point is where does it begin and where does it end? Particularly where does it end?

President Charles Anderson stated, wouldn’t hurt my feelings if we could refuse them all.

Dave Scott stated, yeah, I’d like to see how some other counties handle it.

President Charles Anderson stated, well with the lake property and the way you got it know, and you know…

Attorney Altman stated, you proposing Diann go down there and look?

Jim Mann Jr. stated, were proposing, I don’t think a trip’s required, I think just a phone call and..

Director Weaver stated, I have a copy of their ordinance in my office and I might look in there and see.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, but they may have things like us were groping with how we, the ordinance says this and spells this out but…

Attorney Altman stated, they may have a list like that.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, yeah, they may have like a checklist or something and that’s, you know.

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s so quick and gives so much guidance.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, exactly.

Dave Scott stated, it would be nice to just be able to go down a checklist when somebody brings a PUD in here and yeah it’s here, yeah, wow its not here, you know.

Don Ward stated, it would also be nice if we had some examples to throw in with it. This is a typical site plan, this is a typical this that or another, that would really help them a lot.

Director Weaver stated, well I think the best way to do that is once we get a couple to where we’ve got them like we want, we’ve got them in office and if they want to see one they can come in and they can pull that file and they can look.

Don Ward stated, come in and look at them and something like that can really help them out because they are really blind right now because they don’t know because we don’t know.

Director Weaver stated, and yeah, unfortunately we are too and that’s what makes it so bad.

Don Ward stated, if we knew, they’d know and we don’t know.

Dennis Sterrett asked, does our new ordinance have anything about PUDs?

Director Weaver stated, and it’s a lot better than what we’ve got. I mean, I have read that section and it gives us a lot better direction than what we’ve got.

President Charles Anderson asked, can you send us a copy of that?

Director Weaver stated, you should have a copy of it. Do you have a copy of the new ordinance?

President Charles Anderson stated, no, I don’t have a copy.

Director Weaver stated, well come see me after the meeting, I’ve got one over there for you.

Dave Scott stated, what is, when is, what is going on with that?

Director Weaver stated, John Heimlich was in my office the other day and asked if I had heard anything and I told him no, and he asked if I was waiting on anything and I’m not aware that they are, so he was going to put a call in to them. I don’t know what the hold up is.

Don Ward stated, truthfully old buildings scare me more than the new ones because we just don’t know what’s there. We don’t know whether their plumbing problems, sell the damn things off and then those people just come in here to us and start bellyaching to us about things that don’t work.

Attorney Altman stated, what does, another thing that kind of worries me is, they’ve got these units down there and they sort of make some assumption that the walls conform with the, where there saying the unit is, the wall of the apartment now, but then nobody surveyors this to make sure this even once to make sure it there’s unity there Denny is what I’m trying to say.

Dennis Sterrett stated, well he’s got legal description of what they’re going to sell.

Attorney Altman stated, you think he’s surveyed between the walls.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I don’t know, we just got it tonight.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, okay, then maybe he’s got it, that would be good.

Dennis Sterrett stated, but to me, he’s got the upper floor overlaying the bottom floor because he doesn’t have height elevation on it, from what I read.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, so there’s where we better look at it and let us know whether it’s right Denny.

Don Ward stated, they need that next, they need that legal setup next time, do they not, for the primary.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah.

Dennis Sterrett stated, that’s what I was bringing up tonight.

Don Ward stated, you know, you understand what the situation is don’t you? They’re selling the guy this apartment but he also owns part of the building above the guy below him so he’s buying part of the second story.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah.

Director Weaver stated, well some of those apartments are just on the second story.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah, that’s what he said.

Director Weaver stated, 2 of them are just 2nd story apartments.

Don Ward stated, so how do you sell the land to the guy down below and his apartment and the guy above him…

Attorney Altman stated, that’s where the good legal…

Don Ward stated, it’s a legal thing that has to be done

Attorney Altman stated, it’s a legal structure.

Don Ward stated, you know it can be done because it has been done in the big cities.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, with common walls common floors.

Attorney Altman stated, I mean my son’s deed says unit number I think 53 in such a such condominium.

Dennis Sterrett asked, was he high?

Attorney Altman stated, 2nd floor. And that’s exactly what it meant, although I can’t tell you I’ve ever surveyed it out, not going to.

Don Ward stated, then it has to be spelled out very very well on the plot plans.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, on the plot plans.

Don Ward stated, on the floor plans and stuff, it has to be spelled out exactly what apartment D is or whatever it is.

Attorney Altman stated, just like a subdivision, it has to have the same exactness.

President Charles Anderson stated, so in my old house where I split a 220 line, I probably ought to change that in the next ….

Attorney Altman stated, can we adjourn.

Director Weaver asked, was that an adjournment?

Attorney Altman stated, I think it was.


The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission



























Document Prepared By: White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________