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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, February 11, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Mike Smolek, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, Gerald Cartmell, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: John Castleberry, Rob Bult, Dave Armbruster, Diane Blackwell, Vicki Pugh, Carl Zarse, Larry Moser, Jeff Nagel, Charles Mellon, Connie Neininger, Douglas Woods, Gary Woods, Wayne Holmes, John Douglas, Willis Smith, Beth Theobald, Doug Theobald, Joe Bumbleburg, Steve Meyer, Steve Burton, Bobbi Davis, Adam Regid, Michael Scheurich, and Jim Thayer.

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Jim Mann Jr. made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the January 14, 2008 meeting. Motion was seconded and carried unanimously.


#949 Anliker Family Trust – Owner and Rob Bult - Applicant; The property is located on 245.461 acres, Part E ½ E ½ 33/34-28-4 in Monon Township, located South of Monon, between U.S. 421 and C.R. 100 E. and between Quarry Road and 500 N.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to I-2.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing that request? You want to come forward and state your name.

Rob Bult stated, Rob Bult, principal of Synergy Management.

President Charles Anderson asked, the Commissioners have any questions about that request at all?

Rob Bult stated, we’ve prepared a…

President Charles Anderson asked, what type of industry are you planning on bringing in there as far as…

Rob Bult stated, a stone quarry with a lime operation.

President Charles Anderson stated, as far as the lime…

Rob Bult stated, we put together a presentation we would like to show you, it gets pretty in depth in all the process, we can go ahead and get started.

President Charles Anderson stated, before he does that, the Commissioners have any questions at all? You want to go ahead and put on the program.

Rob Bult asked, okay, does everybody have a copy of the Power Point Presentation?

Don Ward stated, no.

Director Weaver stated, no, we did not make copies for you.

Several members speaking.

President Charles Anderson asked, is this going to be the exact same as what’s going to be on the screen?

Rob Bult stated, it’s pretty close to that.

President Charles Anderson stated, it’s pretty close to that. Does anybody in the audience right now want to see a copy of this? Come up and get mine.

Don Ward stated, I thought we were going to have a short meeting.

Rob Bult stated, again, my name is Rob Bult, I’m a principal with Synergy Management. Who we are and I have one other partner with Synergy Management, business manager; I’ve been in the transportation business for the last 20 plus years and other related business including the Aggregate business. The other principal Jack Cross is not here tonight. He’s a business owner, he was with a fortune 500 company in the stone and lime business and worked his way up thru corporate America with them in operating different management positions. Our objective tonight is to share information about our plants to build a plant, bring jobs to this area, we want to talk a little bit about our values of being a good neighbor being part of the community and making a safe operation. We want to educate you on the plant design and the operation of the plant. The main reason we are here tonight is to request a zoning change. The plant locations, we have narrowed it down to 2 plant locations. Originally we were up in Francesville but the stone in that area was not as high of quality as the stone down in this area so this is the location that we want to be. The details are the logistics and the infrastructure of the 2 locations are very similar. They’re on a major highway, we had natural gas, and we had lots of stone reserves. We’re requiring a zoning change in order to move forward with our permit application. Basically we’re far enough into the process with our air permit application that we need to put an address on it. I wanted to give you kind of the lay of the land, the pin mark on the bottom of the screen, Anliker, is our piece of property, we show it in relation to the other 2 existing stone quarries and also in the relation to the town of Monon. Here’s a little more defined view of our piece of ground, roughly 250 acres, we have the Davis house basically on the West side of the property and the Highland house on the East side of the property. We have had communications as we’ve been going thru the process with both homeowners and we have a tentative agreement in place with each homeowner without getting too detailed into those agreements we would be looking at purchasing both of those properties. The plant details, it’s an open pit quarry to mine limestone, very similar to the Vulcan and the Hansen sites. The plant we want to make as appealing as possible. Berms around the plant to reduce visibility of the operation. The limestone or the lime plant that we are going to build on the property, basically for those of you who don’t know what a lime plant is, 2 rotary kilns dump the stone in at one end, basically a 2 ½ inch size stone, dump it in at 1 end of the kiln, cook it at 2800 degrees for 4 hours, comes out of the other side of the kiln as lime. Taking limestone turning it into lime. I’ve put together a little plant video. This was put together by the people we’ve actually hired to do the erection of the plant, it runs for about 2 minutes. Basically I’ll try to explain it a little bit. It’s a pre-heater design which is the latest and greatest in technology. Raw stone comes into the pre-heater where the stone is actually heated, fed down into the kiln, now these kilns are 13 ½ foot diameter, roughly a football field long. They turn at 1 rpm and they are at about a 3 or 4 percent grade so it takes about 4 hours for the stone to get from one end of the kiln to the other. Flame is shot into this end of kiln, the low end of the kiln to heat the stone. It is also transferred up into the pre-heater.

Attorney Altman stated, excuse me. May I interrupt for a minute? For the record we have another member here, Dave Scott. You can go on.

Dave Scott stated, sorry about that folks.

Rob Bult stated, no problem. The heat as it runs thru the pre-heater is catching thru these coolant tubes, run thru the bag house and then up the emission staff. That is kind of the uncomplicated version of how a lime plant operates. We’re permitting for 3 kilns, we will be installing 2 kilns. At some point in the future based on our market predictions we think 3 kilns is realistic opportunity. This is a picture I pulled off the brochure of the engineering firm that has designed this plant. This is a typical lime plant although it’s a little different than our design would be in this scenario. Much of the plant is elevated, in our scenario were actually going to contour the plant very close to the ground so these pillars you see holding the kilns will only be about 5 feet high, much lower to the ground. Our plant is the latest and greatest in technology so what I’ve thrown is some slides up here just to show you some of the automation involved with the plant. The plant will have, I don’t, quite a few electric motors varying in sizes from 5/4 power I believe up to 500 so these are some of the mcc’s in variable switch components that control some of that basically from a control room, you’ll have individuals or operators inside a controlled room similar to this, you’ll have computer screens on the wall and monitoring all aspects of the plant. On the right is the product storage and take away screen that they would be monitoring, meaning bins and conveyors. On the left is monitoring some of the emissions with the plant. The screen on the right monitoring some of the different temperatures throughout the plant process. This screen is monitoring all the different aspects of the pre-heater. The plant itself will employee 30-35 skilled workers, hourly workers, wage and benefits will be among the best in the area. Average hourly wage will be in the 17-$22.00 an hour range. Competitive benefits full time employment. What do I mean by that? Plant runs 24/7. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. We produce just as many tons in January as we do in July. The hourly payroll we expect will exceed a million and a half dollars per year. That number does not include any management. Some of our core beliefs. We will be a safe place to work. We are monitored by EMSHA. Our operation will meet or exceed all environmental requirements. Our employees will be part of a successful team. Our team will support the local economy. Both from a financial involvement and a personal involvement. Our market, who do we sell to? Well the biggest customer is the steel market. We also sell to the chemical industry, soil stabilization, but a large part of our market is the domestic steel market. Steel requires our product, dolo lime, to help purify the steel. It actually brings the slag and impurities out of the steel. Also our product, the reserve that we will be mining is high in Magnesium. MGO. The mgo extends the life of refractory product substantial. Over the last 10 years the use of dolomitic lime has increased substantially. There’s 2 types of lime that are produced in this country. There’s a high calcium and a dolomitic. In the mid-west here being a dolomitic. Over the years you’ve probably had a 75-25% ratio of high cal being 75% dolo 25% but they have found especially in the steel industry that dolomitic lime has a much greater value than they originally thought so that ratio is more like 50/50 now. We will make a high quality product that the steel customers want to buy. Having state of the art kilns will make us a very reliable supplier by reliable state of the art meaning this is a turn key operation. Everything going into this plant is brand new. We are piece mailing nothing. The fact the plant, one other fact too is all the steel that is going into this plant is all USA steel, so domestic, nothing coming in from overseas. The fact that this plant is located on the raw material supply makes us a very economical supplier. What do I mean by that is 2.2, basically it takes 2.2 pounds of stone to make 1 pound of finished product. So the fact that the plant can be located on its reserve is very important. If you have to, if you think of it like this. If you have to spend $1.00 to get your raw material to your plant you’ve got to add a 2.2 multiplier on it. So that substantially to the finished product cost if you have to handle your raw material. With the new kilns our team approach to customer relations we already have guaranteed business for 50% of the plant capacity. What does that mean? We’ve already got over half our finished product sold in long term contracts. That number could actually be higher, we made an internal decision that we wanted to keep a portion of our product in the open market. Again more confidence in the market, you know in regards to the ethanol plant, they have run into their difficulties during their construction, they seem to be back on tract. Our situation is a little different. Our product is created in an open market, we have different raw materials than they do. There is no government controls in our market. No setting of prices on the raw material or on the finished products. We have long term contracts for significant amount of our output and were very confident in the market. You know you ask how come nobody has built a plant out here, you know, why didn’t this happen 20 years ago, well there’s a lot that’s changed that has brought all these pieces together. 6-8 years ago, maybe even a few years longer than that the steel industry was in turmoil. You had, they couldn’t meet some of their legacy cost amongst other issues so you had all your major steel manufactures going out of business or going bankrupt. About that time you had your other dolomitic suppliers in the Midwest they were, most of those plants were at 50-60 year life span and they were at that age so they were facing 3-4 major issues. One being their customers weren’t paying them. The steel industry was in turmoil. Secondly they were looking at some major upgrades within their plant because they had basically run their lifecycle. They were looking at big infrastructure cost. Thirdly they were, there were some new environmental regulations kicking in so they had some major infrastructure costs going into environmental upgrades. Fourthly they had some reserve issues. They had mined out where there plants were located so they were looking at having to bring the raw material in. So based on all those facts they weren’t getting paid to do that so there has been some plants that have been shut down in the last 5,6,8 years. So this created a huge gap in the market place. And based now on the surrogates on the steel industries and the lack of product here in the Midwest they have been shipping this product in as far as Utah. So highly over inflated prices. So the industry is looking for some stability and we were able to as building this plant give the industry quite a bit of stability. This will actually be the, with the 2 kiln operation, the 2nd or 3rd largest dolomitic plant in the country. With the 3rd kiln it will actually be the largest dolomitic plant in the country. We’re in the final stages of environmental permitting process. Basically we need an address to put on the permit. We expect to have that permit back within the next 6 months. Once the permits are approved we are looking at a about 18 month construction time on the plant so we’re expecting to be operational by the 4th quarter of 09. Some of the community benefits, we will be a corporate neighbor, steady jobs, again, we produce just as many tons in January as we do in July. Were high generator of revenue. Tax’s generated will support local schools, fire departments, hospitals, roads, other taxes entities within the counties and locally. Additional jobs to support the plant. You’re talking once you throw in some of the management your talking 40+ jobs just within the plant. You know you’re talking another 40+ jobs, driving jobs, just to move the finished product out of the plant. So it is a big economic impact for the community. In summer when we have a good target market. We’ll operate a safe plant; we will be a good neighbor, we’ll bring steady employment and offer attractive wages and benefits for our skilled workers. We want to build this plant and we request a zoning change. I’ll open this up for questions. I do have in the audience. I brought Dave Armbruster who is my project manager and I brought John Castleberry who is my environmentalist so we can answer questions on the environmental side, operational side.

President Charles Anderson stated, let’s go thru the board here first and see if the board has any questions they want to ask you.

Don Ward asked, how many thousand tons of stone do you expect to convert to full capacity?

Rob Bult stated, to feed our kilns, the kilns are 2 800 ton a day kilns, so we would be mining/processing a little over 2 million ton a year.

Don Ward asked, and how many years do you think the stone will last?

Rob Bult stated, based on the drill data we have, the proof and reserves, I believe we’ve already proved out over 75 years with the reserves based on our consumption.

Don Ward asked, do you intend to ship everything by truck?

Rob Bult stated, no. Initially yes, but within a year we plan to have rail structure, or rail infrastructure in place and probably 20-30% of our finished sales would go out by rail.

Don Ward asked, you intend to ship off of 43, highway 43, not the county road?

Rob Bult stated, 421 you mean?

Don Ward stated, oh, 421, yeah.

Rob Bult stated, yeah, and we can, I put up some charts here, we can get actually into the plant layout as it pertains to the survey and we’ve had conversations with INDOT and also with the CSX railroad where you can see where some of that infrastructure would go.

Don Ward stated, its tough getting out there. The railroads high…

Rob Bult stated, right, and we’ve addressed all those issues.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, how much water will you use?

Rob Bult stated, very little. I can let Dave talk to that, but basically, for dust control would be probably our biggest water usage. Roads and stock piles.

Attorney Altman asked, could you quantify that please? The usage.

Dave Armbruster stated, well as far as the, I’m Dave Armbruster, project management. As far as the plant operations itself there’s a lot of big drive reducers and those of things, those, that is closed loop cooling system that utilizes glycol, does not use any water, you fill those things, closed loop, sort of like a radiator in your car. As far as water consumption, we will have some water into our pit, our quarry pit, we plan on utilizing that water for our dust suppression, our haul roads and things like that. The plant entrance will be paved and will be swept daily. As far as, it will be pretty much just the employee’s consumption drinking water and restrooms and things like that for 5-6 employees per shift, around the clock.

President Charles Anderson stated, so much of that dust that you are suppressing is not actually the finished product, it’s the dust from the trucks crushing the limestones and everything else.

Rob Bult stated, no, no, from the trucks hauling into the quarry, just, just like it is at the Hansen quarry or at the Vulcan quarry.

Dave Armbruster, the finished product is treated like a food, it can not get wet.

Don Ward asked, you have to have a crusher too don’t you? I didn’t see a crusher there.

Rob Bult stated, for the stone, on the stone quarry side.

Don Ward asked, you have to start out crushing it don’t you?

Rob Bult stated, correct.

Dave Armbruster, yes.

Don Ward stated, hammer mills after that? It’s not a 1 step process is it, crushing it?

Rob Bult stated, no very similar to what Hansen and Vulcan have in place. Very similar type crushing operation.

President Charles Anderson stated, where in the 250 some acres are these plants going to be? Are they going to be centrally located or they going to be…

Dave Armbruster stated, yeah, this right back here to the back, this would be the plant layout, you could see the lime plant in this area with the stone crushing plant in this area. The way it would work, originally, the first 3 years we would not have a permanent crushing plant. It would be a portable crushing unit that we would actually be mining down and on this lower levels some elevations. So the actual 3 years down the road when we have a hole big enough we will actually install at that time point and time a permanent crushing operation which will actually be down in the hole. Stone will be converyered out into the lime plant which will actually be below grade.

President Charles Anderson stated, of course you couldn’t pump up all that water.

Dave Armbruster stated, and I can let John talk to that on the water discharge but in any open pit stone operation you got water pumping whether its 2 hours a day or 6 hours a day. And you’ve got your normal water….

President Charles Anderson asked, how far down in would that be though that the, the plant, or the crushing unit, it wouldn’t be….

Dave Armbruster stated, 50 feet.

President Charles Anderson stated, 50 foot then.

Dave Armbruster stated, below.

Rob Bult stated, the average overburden in that area is about 25-30 feet meaning 25 or 30 feet of dirt before you actually start getting into limestone. You probably got another 30 or 40 feet of what we consider non-cook able limestone. So were down about 60 feet before we were actually in.

President Charles Anderson asked, so that non-cook able will be processed as stone and things like that?

Rob Bult stated, yeah, it will be used in infrastructure and based in the plant and then we will probably sell the rest.

President Charles Anderson asked, the commissioners have any other questions?

Dave Scott asked, yeah, there’s a couple of property owners in the middle there that you’re around. Has there been an effort made to guarantee their property values or …

Rob Bult stated, well you’ve got the Hileman house over here which we have a tentative agreement in place and then you have the David house here, which again we have a tentative agreement in place. You’ve got, I don’t know the exact acreage, about 15 acres in here with the Griffin property, I have had conversations with the Griffins, we have not, it has not pursued any farther than that, but you know, we want to be good neighbors here; we don’t want to see anybody get hurt financially.

Dave Scott stated, the people who actually live there though, like Davis, you, he’s, I guess he’s, has he sent letters or anything?

Rob Bult stated, actually Mrs. Davis is here tonight.

Dave Scott stated, oh, okay.

Mrs. Davis stated, I’m here and we have spoken.

Dave Scott stated, pardon me.

Mrs. Davis stated, I’m, Jim couldn’t be here so I’m Mrs. Davis, and we have spoken.

Don Ward stated, after you make this lime. You’re going to have residue right? Because you’re taking, you get 1 pound of lime for 2.2 pounds of stone, so you got 1.2 pounds of lime stone to get ride of or whatever the results are. What do you do with that?

Rob Bult stated, well, thru the process, I mean, the chemistry on it changes. I mean you got some properties that are liberated. We actually, some of it is fines. We actually sell off the fines, we have a briquetter that actually briquettes the fines, turns it back into a sellable product.

President Charles Anderson stated, you want to state your name again.

Dave Armbruster stated, my name is Dave Armbruster, project management, operated lime plants before. I think this question is different if you have 2 pounds of stone to get 1 pound of lime. Actually what were doing is we’re just driving the moisture in the carbonate out of the limestone.

Don Ward stated, right, I know moisture would be part of it.

Dave Armbruster stated, right, right.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I guess what I, this maybe goes with that but is there going to be some kind of emission or is that captured into the design of the plant in such a way where there is nothing going to be going into the air that would cause any…

Rob Bult stated, well were held to what they call B.A.C.T. Best available control technologies as far as emissions standpoint. IDEM and the EPA set those standards and we either meet and exceed those standards.

Dave Armbruster stated, there’s dust collectors, bag houses, all the emission points are controlled.

Mike Smolek asked, is IDEM the only regulations you got to go thru as far as, you have to go thru EPA or anything like that? What other, you said you were going thru environment agencies, what agencies are involved?

Dave Armbruster stated, well you’ve got, the county and John can talk about some of those issues.

John Castleberry stated, John Castleberry, environmental…

Attorney Altman stated, John, could you talk into the mic please, it would be much better.

John Castleberry stated, certainly, can you hear?

President Charles Anderson stated, its got to go to recording is the reason.

John Castleberry stated, everything starts at the federal level with federal standards that we must achieve and then the individual states have their own rules that we must also achieve. There are safety rules that are set up by the mine safety health administration that we must adhere to. Within IDEM, the Indiana Department of Environmental Management, there’s both an air program and a water program and there will be separate sets of regulations that will require permits on both respects. Those are the primary agencies.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, what about service water drainage?

John Castleberry stated, again, that…

Jim Mann Jr. stated, the land, it’s a rather large land mass, I'm just curious how that…

John Castleberry stated, the actual mining activity will actually be a catch mitt for surface run off and then we will have a permit that will allow us to discharge what we collect into one of the ditches, but, it will all be trapped, contained, treated, and then released, probably at a quality that is better than what would normally be running off the agriculture land.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, okay, thank you.

President Charles Anderson asked, the commissioners have any more questions? If not I’m going to open it up to the audience. The audience have any questions about this?

Attorney Altman stated, before you do, Rob, do you have a copy of this so we can have that as part of the record? Okay, thank you, we need that.

Rob Bult stated, okay.

President Charles Anderson stated, you want to come on up Charlie?

Charles Mellon stated, they can hear me back here. Are you going to be seeking tax abatement?

Rob Bult stated, no, we are asking for nothing from the county or the community. Other than a zoning change.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other questions from the audience?

Mike Smolek asked, can we put a, being that its 226 acres there wanting to re…, 260 acres, put a stipulation on there that it’s not going into mining it needs to revert back or going into this process.

President Charles Anderson stated, we’ll ask him about that when we get towards the vote. Any other questions from the audience?

Connie Neininger stated, Connie Neininger, White County Economic Development, and I would just like to, you know, add our support to this project. Especially because of the economic impact as he stated at this time he is not asking for any abatements so the capital investment that will help the township immensely and also the number of jobs that are much greater than our average wage at this point in time. Our average wage in White County is 13.82 and they’re going to be starting at $17.00 an hour and so, you know, that is a huge benefit to our community so I just want to stress our support for the project.

President Charles Anderson stated, I guess I got one more question. 90 years from now when this is all done, what do you do to reclaim that property, what do you do to that property after that company leaves. You got more gaping holes than the land …

Rob Bult stated, we’ll have a reclamation plan.

Dave Scott stated, build some condos around it. I don’t know.

John Castleberry stated, what’s interesting though in Indianapolis, I was at the Indiana mining association meeting a couple of weeks ago and a lot of the housing has been placed around the older quarries so there’s a nice blend of communities with the abandoned sites. We have 1 lake already in Monon that was a former quarry. I’m certain that the Vulcan and Hansen facilities had similar plans so maybe we interconnect them.

President Charles Anderson asked, does the state require you to do anything at all? What does the state require you to do as far as clean up after you’re completely done?

John Castleberry stated, well there will be a hole left in the ground. And the slopes will be knocked down so they’ll be gentle and it will basically be a holding tank of water that can be used for recreational purposes.

President Charles Anderson asked, but you turn that back over to the public then or do you try to sell that property or do you have any ideas for the plans down the road.

John Castleberry stated, not in 90 years, no. But there will be a use for it.

Gerald Cartmell asked, how deep is your hole?

John Castleberry stated, we’re still evaluating how deep the hole will be on the basis of our drilling and certainly this deposit is not uniform in quality throughout it’s entire thickness there will be zones that might actually drive the economic base of the quarry so that’s still to be determined.

Gerald Cartmell stated, quarry or mine one or the other. After so deep you’re a mine.

John Castleberry stated, yeah, well, and in our profession if we go underground we're a mine but if we're always going from the surface we’re a quarry.

Gerald Cartmell stated, so you haven’t answered my question yet.

John Castleberry stated, well the, we don’t, we don’t really know until we run out of good rock. But I don’t think it would be more than 300 feet. Because we get into another geologic formation below that is undesirable.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there any other questions in the audience out there?

Dave Stimmel stated, 1 question I have is about…

President Charles Anderson stated, state your name for the record.

Gerald Cartmell stated, you know how this works, get up here.

Dave Stimmel stated, I know, I know, Dave Stimmel, I’m a Monon resident and I’m just curious. You talked about the jobs you are going to create and the fact that they are high skilled. What kind of training or how, what do you expect to access those jobs themselves. Is there going to be a certain amount of input or people you are going to transplant into the area to be trainers or do you expect to fill all these from the local job population.

Rob Bult stated, I’m going to let Dave answer that question.

Dave Armbruster stated, Dave Armbruster stated, our plan is to hire employees from this community in training, we will spend from the time the plant, we begin construction on the plant, the training will begin for a select few of folks, I’m going to say 8-12 folks. They will be on site through the construction of the project and those will be the guys that will also supply 3-4 months of training, probably not here on this site but with the kiln vender to learn the control system and that sort of thing, but our plan is to hire all the folk’s right here.

Dave Stimmel asked, what kind of minimum, what kind of educational requirement will you have?

Dave Armbruster stated, we like for them to have a high school education. Or a GED.

Dave Stimmel stated, okay.

Dave Armbruster stated, that’s it.

Don Ward asked, do you intend to sell some of that overburden? You got 25 feet of dirt, you have a lot of stuff to get rid of.

Rob Bult stated, a lot of the overburden we’ll use to make berms around the property. Now understand too were not going to go in and clear the whole property.

Don Ward stated, well I didn’t think you would. At least not right away.

Rob Bult stated, we will clear it as needed.

Don Ward stated, what will you do with the 25 feet of limestone? Sell it as crushed stone?

Rob Bult stated, correct.

Don Ward stated, Nipsco will provide what, natural gas for the kiln.

Rob Bult stated, yeah, Nipsco has a 12 inch main?

John Castleberry stated, 16-20 inch line.

Rob Bult stated, running thru the property and they have availability on this line and told us we could tap into it.

President Charles Anderson asked, is this your first plan for Synergy Management.

Rob Bult stated, this is the first lime plant for Synergy Management.

President Charles Anderson asked, what else does Synergy Management do?

Rob Bult stated, Synergy Management was a company that I formed roughly 4 or 5 years ago to pursue ventures in the aggregate business. We have a plant that we are currently building down in the St. Louis area. We have a operational stone quarry in the Illinois area. I have a long history in that type of business as do the other principals in Synergy Management. We’re very well financially backed if that’s a concern.

President Charles Anderson stated, as far as rezoning all this to industry at one time. Would you be opposed to, if this doesn’t go into that type of plant, being able to revert it back to agriculture at that point, if the plant doesn’t go, if something would happen. If we stipulated that if it doesn’t develop into this plant or this type of a use, this type of a mining use that the zoning would revert back to the agriculture zoning.

Rob Bult stated, yeah, I don’t see why I would have an issue with that.

John Castleberry asked, is there any hesitancy or not to continue as a plant from that area as a stand alone?

President Charles Anderson stated, you guys for sure haven’t even got everything passed to have it as an aggregate plant either have you or…

John Castleberry stated, I misunderstood.

President Charles Anderson stated, I mean, you still got to; it’s going to take 24 months to get this online too. What would happen if everything would fall apart?

Rob Bult stated, well we would, based on our time frame we have now in order to be operational by the end of next year I mean we plan to be stripping dirt by the end of next year we plan to be stripping dirt by May or June and be mining a short time after that.

President Charles Anderson asked, the other commissioners have any thoughts on that? We had one over here earlier.

Steve Burton stated, Steve Burton, White County Commissioner. I just wanted to touch, and I know he hasn’t said anything, your concern about what they do with the spoil. Steve Brooks has met with Ron and is already trying to negotiate with some of their top fill and their by product aggregate and just to put it bluntly he was pretty excited about the fact of working a relationship with him to try to hold our county cost down, 1 of the other benefits of this plant. So I think it’s a good thing but there’s a lot of issues here or a lot of things he presented to us well and seems to be willing to work with the county. Road issue we didn’t really get into it much but I know it was brought up earlier. They have a plan to try to address the crossing and make that a safe access to the state highway and again he’s not asking the county to rebuild and put a burden backwards so hey.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have questions here?

Steve Meyer stated, I don’t have questions, I got comments at the appropriate time, I don’t know.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah, you can come on up and tell us.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, thank you, my name is Attorney Steve Meyer, I’m an attorney with Ball Eggleston in Lafayette and I’m here on behalf of Richard Benning who owns the property just north of this site up off of north on 421 where the Vulcan plant is located and he’s asked us to…

President Charles Anderson asked, structurally how far is this property from this building.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, its 1 parcel away, there’s just a...

President Charles Anderson asked, how large is the parcel?

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, on the map, I’ve got the map here.

Member of the audience stated, 11 acres.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, this is the proposed site and there’s a parcel in between and then this black dot is the Vulcan plant.

President Charles Anderson stated, so exactly where is he then, I can’t see.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, this is the black, according to that, the black part is the Vulcan plant.

President Charles Anderson asked, and where’s his property.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, this is Mr. Benning's property. It’s leased. This is my client. We represent the client who has this property.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, and then this highlighted part where I highlighted is the subject property we’re here talking, so were not too far, were up a little up the road. Some comments or concerns I want to raise on behalf of Mr. Benning tonight is number 1, this information came to us very, very, late. We’re not an adjoining property owner so we did not receive certified notice of this and the information that came to us was that the posting of the sign was just posted as late as Thursday which about 5 days before this meeting. So technical question is when did they post their signs because the information just came to us within about 5 days so we haven’t had a lot of chance to prepare for this and if they signed and provided an affidavit….

Rob Bult stated, I posted this sign personally and it was more than 2 weeks before, probably 3 weeks. I mean it was 2 days after Diann gave me the sign.

Director Weaver stated, I didn’t get up there until Friday. What does your sign posting affidavit say?

Rob Bult stated, in fact I believe I emailed her a copy of the pictures I had taken after I posted the signs, the day after I posted the signs.

Director Weaver stated, the sign posting affidavit says that they were posted on the 22nd of January.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, it just didn’t come to our attention till then so I was just curious. A couple other comments is the marketability of this project right now there exist the Vulcan plant already which is an operation across the street as the other quarry plant which I understand is idle so that’s already not in operation, up the road in Francesville there are already a couple of quarry sites that are in operation. If you consider this, this would be the 5th kind of a quarry project within a close geographical area and the question is whether or not this is really marketability or marketable effort given the fact that you already have 1 idle plant sitting in White County. It’s our understanding also that there’s some property to the north that’s also marketed itself as a quarry area just north of 16, the Thayer property and again the question is how much can 1 county support of mining operation of this nature and whether or not this is truly marketability a marketable project. More importantly though is, I think that we all know what this is about. You’re here just too obviously address the zoning whether it’s appropriate to make it industrial verses agriculture. It’s clear that if you approve the zoning it’s headed toward the lime operation and this is not the kind of operation that already exists up in that area. The Vulcan operation and the operation across the street is just the crushing of the stone. This is much more intense as you saw from the presentation. This is a lime process. Now I’m not an expert on it but from what I’ve learned is that it’s much more intense. You have to infuse chemicals in it. It’s a combustion sort of process. It involves 2 kilns. It involves putting particles out in the air and it’s much more intense than the operations you have going on already.

President Charles Anderson asked, does that increase marketability with though?

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, well it changes somewhat, the product, certainly that there selling but it also changes the impact that it has on your environment and the folks in the county because there not used to what’s there already and is this the appropriate kind of approach you want to go. And because of that, because it’s a more intense kind of an operation your own requirements I think require that the petitioner file a land improvement planned approved by this commission and I haven’t seen that. You know the land improvement plan is supposed to provide information about a contour map, vehicular ingress and egress, artificial lighting installations, plants for grading, seeding, landscaping improvements, a lot more detail than we’ve heard so far. This is the first time that we’ve seen this diagram, it wasn’t filed in the file before today so we haven’t had opportunity to study it and neither has the public. So the question is, you’re about to endeavor, create a path and create a huge hole in a parcel of land in your county and are you prepared to do that tonight with a bunch of unknown questions. Is the site plan or is the location improvement plan detailed enough to give you some comfort level. Did they provide a reclamation plan? The question was asked rightfully so. I wrote that down and vague answer on that. And so this is going to be a major permanent hole created in White County and it seems to me that good government would suggest that you ask all these questions and you ask for more specific plans before you proceed with this today in your zoning. The question about the jobs, creating 35 jobs I understand is something that you always want to consider, but consider also the impact this may have on the current quarry operations. With 1 already idle and the Vulcan operation already in existence and in competition with the others up north. If the market can sustain it it’s not known but are you trying to, are you going to gain 35 jobs with at the expense of losing other jobs in the other quarry operations. So these are all, I think, important considerations that you should take before you go to the staff of rezoning this at this point and time. Thank You.

President Charles Anderson asked, do you want to respond to any of that Mr. Bult.

Rob Bult stated, sure. As far as competing with the existing stone quarries, that is not our intent. Our intent is to mine the stone to feed the mining demand. We do not plan to aggressively sell what we consider a higher value stone. I mean the stone we can put into the kilns is so road based so I do not see us as a competitor with the existing stone operations.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anything other things that he said that you want to respond to?

Rob Bult stated, the long term reclamation plan, you know, I would ask, does Hansen have? You know what is Hansen’s long term?

Gerald Cartmell stated, we’re not talking about them; we’re talking about you guys. That’s in the past, there is nothing we can do about that now.

President Charles Anderson asked, I just wanted to know if the state had anything that they required you to do as far as terminating the size standard hole. (Inaudible)

Rob Bult stated, as far as some of the topography and that, I mean, John, you can talk on some of that.

John Castleberry stated, sure. First thing, I’d like to mention about the adjoining quarries and the stone is not the same everywhere. We’re actually trying to chase a ancient reef deposit that runs across the country and there are zones within it that are totally unsuitable for the production of lime. If our silica variances to high it can’t be sold. If we have sulfur levels in the stone it can’t be sold. So were actually looking at a very pure deposit. The Vulcan deposit across the street is fairly well exhausted. They have gone thru the crème of the zones so were more targeted towards this area. As Rob mentioned, we looked up at Francesville. We did drilling at Francesville. We, around the existing Vulcan and Hansen quarries and the silica levels were high enough that we were not going to have the final product we needed. Back to final reclamation that most likely will be a lake and we will try to contour it and make it look as naturally as we can in the next 50 years but short of that it won’t be filled back in. It will probably be a water bearing piece of land.

President Charles Anderson asked, commissioners have any other questions? Does the audience, is there anybody else in the audience have any questions about his request at all? Any adjoining land owners have any questions at all? Commissioners want to put a restriction on this as far as reverting back or anything like that? Do you want to discuss that or you just want to let it go vote?

Don Ward stated, well if you put a restriction on it you want to make it at least 5 years. Give them at least 5 years to get going.

President Charles Anderson stated, get it going. Any other thoughts on it?

Steve Burton stated, Steve Burton. Do you understand what they’re saying?

Rob Bult stated, yeah, if we didn’t open it up it would revert back to agriculture.

Steve Burton stated, right.

Mike Smolek stated, because if something happens that’s 260 acres that someone could put anything in.

President Charles Anderson stated, especially being I-2, just about anything could go in there.

Attorney Altman stated, under the state law basically we need a commitment that would be restrict your use to the process that you’ve just testified about. And obviously…

President Charles Anderson stated, well, limestone…

Attorney Altman stated, and giving you the 5 years Don’s talking about to get it up and going.

Rob Bult stated, if we haven’t done it in 5 years, we’re not going to do it.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand but again, that’s what we're trying to talk to make sure that we don’t put something to heavy on you or …

Dave Rosenbarger stated, but we don’t really want anything that would fall under and I-2 to also go into that land if you back out.

Rob Bult stated, I understand.

Don Ward stated, so if you sell up it reverts back or if you use it that’s it, ballgames over.

Rob Bult stated, if it were up to me that’s perfectly logical.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

President Charles Anderson stated, you want to see a show of hands on the board who would like to have that 5 year commitment. That’s pretty much unanimous. Let’s go ahead and vote.

Don Ward asked, shouldn’t we also have something about, the plans that are required, the things that are required here that eventually would of had those in that restriction. In other words the environmental taken care as time goes along.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, wouldn’t all that follow in the special exception?

Don Ward stated, this stuff here, this paragraph somehow should be incorporated into those restrictions. It’s not something they can do right now but eventually.

Director Weaver stated, this does have to go thru a special exception also Don. So they could possibly get more details at that point and time.

Don Ward stated, and we can ask for what’s going to happen.

President Charles Anderson asked, Mr. Bult, do you want to see what he’s talking about. Jerry you want to show him.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, sure. That’s out of ordinance clause about mining of sand and other aggregates and restrictions puts in places on that and of course you would have to comply with that as does anybody else that’s doing that in White County.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have a question back here, or a statement that you’d like to make? You want to come forward and state your name.

Director Weaver asked, can I answer Dennis Sterrett’s question first.

President Charles Anderson stated, I didn’t hear him.

Director Weaver stated, this is scheduled, yeah, I know you didn’t. This is scheduled for the special exception to be heard later this month on the 21st of February by the Board of Zoning Appeals.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, just a clarification, and this is certainly a Jerry, Mr. Altman, defer to your expertise on this but as I read this, this plan, the detailed land improvement plan must be approved by this commission, not at the BZA, where the special exception may be considered in the second phase, that’s the BZA, but this requires the Area Plan Commission to approve this land improvement plan. So this is the body where it has to prove it and my point as I said earlier, I don’t think the information has been submitted sufficient enough to comply with your own rules of special qualifications to be able to have said you approved a plan and your satisfied with these requirements but it has to be approved by this board, I believe, and not the BZA.

President Charles Anderson stated, there’s no way he can go forward with what he wants to do and get and address out there to and we can put that as a something that he has to meet the obligations to that to is something we can vote on. Don you got anything you want to say on that.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, reading that, the part that confuses me, it does stated that this board would approve that, but then it goes on to state that those plans may include all of those items, so now I’m lost as to is that a definite that those have to be met or it says they may, so is it up to the board to decide, Jerry. Is it up to the board to decide what is to be in that plan? About the 2nd sentence or 3rd.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, and my only point is before you approve a big ol’ hole of this size, this magnitude I would think you would all want to look at those and have those conditions met in a plan ahead of time.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, it just, it clearly says, this language is fairly simple. A plan for land improvements approved by the Area Plan Commission in accordance with the recommendations of the Area Plan Commission shall be required. It does not say what is part of that specifically but it does say that whatever it is, whatever the plan for land improvements must be approved by this body. Now I'm not telling you that those things that maybe include ought to be involved and the board ought to see that and approve those maybe with more specificity than I’ve seen presented this evening but it doesn’t say we have to do that.

President Charles Anderson asked, would you like to see that at some point during that 5 years before the plant starts?

Don Ward stated, well I don’t know that, I think it’s an ongoing thing. I don’t see it as something they can pinpoint right now. It would be almost impossible to tell us what that holes going to look like, the shape of it and the depth of it, but as we go along, so that the environmental part of its taken care of is what I’m thinking. The seeding is done, the you know, erosion control is there, IDEM will look into most of that, we don’t have to do most of that.

President Charles Anderson asked, would you wanting to attach that paragraph to it?

Don Ward stated, only enough that we match our own rule.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, I appreciate your comments but this also suggests a contour map of the actual plant factory, the ingress and egress, the travel in and out of there, grading and seeding landscape improvements, not just the hole but the plant facility itself.

Don Ward stated, well I think eventually we would see that.

President Charles Anderson stated, were talking about rezoning though. We don’t have to do any of that for a rezoning.

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, but you do have to approve the plan. The commission must approve and see the plan the improvement plan.

David Rosenbarger asked, for an I-2?

Attorney Steve Meyer stated, and maybe it’s a question of timing, I don’t know, but this certainly suggests that this should be on file and submitted as well.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess Mr. Myer, I hear what you’re saying, it doesn’t define what a plan for land improvements is, it does say it has to be approved by this body, and it does talk about things that can be part of the plans and maybe there, and this body has heard what it may consider to be a plan for land improvements. I see matters on that exhibit were looking at before us. I heard the presentation that talked about where those improvements, what those improvements would be in more detail and if this whole body decides that that was the plan for land improvements and approved it I think his job is done. It also can ask and get the other things you’re talking about Mr. Myer, that says may include and I agree it can be approved, if required. That you can say you’ve seen it and that’s what you approved and that’s enough too Doc and meet the ordinance I think the standards.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, I guess 1 of the questions was the ingress egress and according to your drawing is only 421.

Rob Bult stated, correct. We looked at all the options with accessing the county roads and basically if we came out on I believe is it 100 West is it.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, East.

Rob Bult stated, or 100 East, okay, you would have some major road improvement, you would be contending with a couple bridges, so, the decision was made to exit out you know on 421. We met with CSX and got their approval on it, we had a meeting with INDOT today. We would be looking at putting in turn lanes on either side. Correct.

Dave Armbruster stated, on both sides.

Rob Bult stated, on both sides of the street so basically 16 foot width extensions on either side of the road, elevation to get over the railroad tracks.

President Charles Anderson asked, commissioners have any other questions. I don’t really think we really have to add that to this, I think a time limit is probably all we need on that. You want to add this to it or do you want to….

Dave Rosenbarger stated, I guest the only thing id like to see added to it is the 5 year that we talked about mining operation.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anything else the board would like to put on that?

Don Ward asked, what do you think Dave?

Dave Scott stated, we need to cover ourselves as much as we can here, liability wise.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that the best way to handle it, if the board sees fit to go ahead with what is, has presented for us and to determine have finding of fact that the plan we received as presented this evening and that is documented this evening is the plan for the land improvements as called for in our ordinance. Defined as so and then present let the commissioners make the final decision. County Commissioners.

President Charles Anderson stated, as it was as it was presented us. Within certain limits. You know, you can vary a certain percent from what you’re doing.

Rob Bult stated, yeah, I mean, the plant could move 50 feet this way.

Attorney Altman stated, precisely.

President Charles Anderson asked, the board all agree with that?

Don Ward stated, yeah. Substantially complies with what is shown.

President Charles Anderson stated, of what they got there, all in favor, that would be right hand, don’t matter both hands.

Attorney Altman stated, majority of the board voted affirmative on that.

President Charles Anderson stated, let’s go ahead and vote then.

Director Weaver stated, before we vote I do think we need to mention that we received a letter from attorney Smith representing an adjacent property owner, Dale and Linda Griffin, I have provided a copy of that letter to all of the members this evening and the original is in the file.

Attorney Altman stated, that will be part of the record of matter of this evening.

John Castleberry stated, I’m prepared to address some comment on that if you would like to…

Mike Smolek asked, where’s that house located at?

David Rosenbarger asked, what house?

Director Weaver stated, it’s not a house, its vacant ground.

Rob Bult stated, basically the property is located here, its roughly 12-15 acres, small pond area with a pole barn. I have spoken to the Griffin’s seeing if we could purchase the property from them at appraised book value.

President Charles Anderson stated, you already mentioned that earlier, you already told us you had come and talked to them.

Gerald Cartmell stated, evidentially that’s not going to well.

Rob Bult stated, well I met with them the day before that letter went out, I thought things went really well, so, I don’t know if that was done before I met with them but its dated the day after, so.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have the ballots in here yet?

Attorney Altman stated, nope, I don’t.

President Charles Anderson stated, I’d say let’s go ahead and…

Dennis Sterrett asked, are we voting that this is subject to the commitment?

President Charles Anderson stated, subject to the commitment.

Attorney Altman stated, subject to the applicant providing a commitment that restricts the use to a stone or lime producing plant, is that a fare way to summarize it?

Rob Bult stated, stone and/or lime plant.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, production as a general use and that the plant be substantially completed within 5 years of date and the approval of the presentation and exhibits as considered as the plan for land improvements as set forth in our ordinance 2. or excuse me 3.2003D the vote is as follows.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 1 negative subject to the applicant providing a commitment that restricts the use to a stone and/or lime production as a general use and that the plant be substantially completed within 5 years of date and the approval of the presentation and exhibits as considered as the plan for land improvements. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.

Director Weaver stated, that will be Tuesday at 8:30 in the morning.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s next Tuesday at 8:30 in the morning, right here and there will be no other notice of that. This is your notice of that, so I guess, be there would be my, and I’d appreciate having that commitment as soon as you can. I’d be glad to show you a form that we use but you can certainly use your own too.


#320 Woods Properties; Requesting approval of a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Woods Subdivision on 1.211 acres, Part S ½ NE ¼ 18-25-3 West, located in Prairie Township, East of Brookston at 9264 S. 375 E.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing that subdivision. Do you want to state your name for the record?

Doug Woods stated, Doug Woods.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any questions about that request? Does anybody in the audience have any questions about their request? Commissioners have any questions about the subdivision?

Dennis Sterrett stated, I discussed with Diann this morning about the right-of-way. I don’t know if you talked with…

Director Weaver stated, I did talk, Denny and I discovered that he’s only showing 20 foot for the road right-of-way and I did talk to the surveyor Bob Gross this morning and explained to him that I was pretty confident the board was going to require a minimum of 25 feet, so he knows that and is aware of that and is willing to accommodate that as long as the woods are. Also, I did not call you regarding that.

Doug Woods stated, yeah, that’s fine. Because we’ll meet the front setback even if that’s another 5 feet.

Attorney Altman stated, what that is is to ensure that there’s 50 foot right-of-way thru there. Obviously 25 foot on your side and would be 25 foot on the other side if they were to do something with that Mr. Woods, okay.

Doug Woods stated, mm hmm.

Director Weaver stated, there was also some confusion as to if there was restrictions. He has noted on the plat that there are no restrictions other than what is shown on the plat but in the file I do have some restrictions. I don’t know really where those came from. Did you provide those to us.

Doug Woods stated, we submitted those but we weren’t sure whether we were going to be a 1 lot subdivision or more. But if it’s just a 1 lot subdivision, there’s no restrictions, the house is already there and built and there’s not much else you can do for restrictions on it. You can’t restrict the size or anything, it’s already there.

Director Weaver stated, okay, then you might want to get with Bob Gross and let him know what you want on that plat.

Doug Woods stated, okay.

Attorney Altman asked, so you don’t have the Mylar on this yet?

President Charles Anderson asked, does anybody in the audience have any questions about the subdivision? Come forward and state your name.

Doug Theobald stated, my name is Doug Theobald and I live directly on the other side of the fence where this property is located at. The question I have, this is, I believe its 8 acres when it was sold, the residence. My question is are they going to subdivide this into more lots or is this the only time they are going to be able to subdivide it into the 1.2 acres. Are they going to be able to keep the remaining 6 plus or 7 acres there as their residence and not subdivide that into any other land and then also, I bought 3 acres adjacent to this out of a 24 25 acre field. I was required to purchase a minimum of 3 acres. Is this going to change for, like across 375 East where Jim Blake owns? Will Jim Blake be able to sell 1 acre lots or is he going to be required to sell the 3 acre lots?

President Charles Anderson stated, he’d have to have a subdivision to be able to sell 1 acre lots. He can sell 1 time 1 acre off of a if it’s a larger property agricultural property 1 time 1 acre lot but have to go to 3 acres lots after that but that doesn’t have anything to do with this side of the road. Do you want to respond to what he said about that, about the 6 acres you got.

Doug Theobald asked, you’re just going to keep it right.

Doug Woods stated, yeah the only thing were putting in the subdivision is the piece of property shown here. The rest of it, there’s still 6.8 acres that’s zoned Ag and you can still build a house on 6 acres and that’s going to be my personal residence, yes. The property in question is just the 1.2 acres to be subdivided off. There’s no other subdivision there.

Doug Theobald stated, you know, I would think what is fair in past practices should be fair now.

President Charles Anderson asked, what do you mean as far as past practices? I don’t understand that.

Doug Theobald stated, well if you’re going to sell any land, there’s enough acreage there to make that into 3 acres, why 1.2 acres when there’s 8 acres there.

President Charles Anderson stated, the others were not subdivisions, if they were cutting 3 acres out of it. It wasn’t in a subdivision, that was just split off in 3 acre units. He’s wanting to develop a subdivision. He can go down to any size, well, any size he can have with a septic and everything, he’s got every right to do it.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you could’ve bought 1 acre but you would’ve had to gone thru a subdivision.

Doug Theobald stated, right.

Dennis Sterrett stated, so you bought 3 acres so you didn’t have to go thru a subdivision is where it stands right now.

Doug Theobald stated, I see.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, and that’s why this gentlemen had to go thru this process, because of the difference.

David Rosenbarger stated, if he would’ve went 3 acres he wouldn’t have had to drawn up anything to us.

Doug Theobald stated, okay, you were talking about, like when I bought 3 acres, you were saying something about when you first sell off land….

President Charles Anderson stated, well, if you got a larger tract of ground. The first cut you can cut 1 acre off of it but then…

Director Weaver stated, you can cut off between 1 and 3 acres 1 time as long as you maintain at least 3 acres. After that without going thru a subdivision they have to be a minimum of 3 acre tracts. If you want to go smaller than that you must go thru a subdivision process.

President Charles Anderson stated, but your 3 acres you can subdivide into lots. I mean the 3 acres you got now, if you wanted to do something like that. And if Doug wanted to subdivide his remaining acreage he could but if he’s going to live on it I doubt that’s really wanting to do…

Doug Woods stated, no, that’s not my intent for the rest of it.

Doug Theobald stated, okay, that was my main concern was if he was going to subdivide that remaining 6 or whatever acres into it. You know 3 or 4 other lots.

David Rosenbarger stated, you’re doing this to sell that house and then build another house.

Doug Woods stated, yeah, I want to sell that house and build my house and that’s, and I don’t want any neighbors any closer to me than I have to have.

Doug Theobald stated, sounds good to me.

President Charles Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any other questions?

Willis Smith asked, can I see 1 of the maps?

President Charles Anderson stated, sure, come on up.

Several members talking at once.

President Charles Anderson asked, any other questions from the commissioners?

Willis Smith stated, I have just 1 comment.

President Charles Anderson stated, state your name though so we can…

Willis Smith stated, Willis Smith stated, I guess I’m the senior land owner in that area represented here tonight. My main concern, they’re not going to bother me with what they do because it’s much higher than my house. It’s up on the high bank but that spring creek that runs thru there is very fragile ecosystem and I’d just hate to see that disturbed in any way. I think it’s unique and its pretty much goes thru non farm ground so the integrity of that creek has been the same for hundreds of years and it didn’t look to me when I looked on Dave’s map there’s far enough to the west to impact that, but any building farther west could impact a higher bank and damage spring creek.

President Charles Anderson asked, you want to respond to that?

Willis Smith stated, pardon

President Charles Anderson stated, I was asking Doug if he wants to respond to that if he knows what you’re talking about, I don’t know.

Doug Woods stated, the spring creek, which he is referring to sits 833 feet off the road, this property only goes back 300 feet, so it’s, well, it meanders through there, its approximately 500 feet away from the creek. But he’s probably concerning where I would want to build which is not a part of this subdivision. I will be several hundred feet in front of the creek to get to the creek there’s actually a ravine and a steeper ravine to even get down to the creek where you wouldn’t be able to build close to it anyways.

President Charles Anderson asked, so you’re not going to build close to the creek bank or anything like that are you?

Doug Woods stated, no. There’s an existing barn on my property not the subject property that’s maybe 70 feet up from the bank and that was the only build able place. Were going to be another 200 feet from that.

President Charles Anderson asked, does that satisfy what you’re asking.

Doug Woods stated, I won’t be cutting out. I’m not going to make a walk out basement on that ridge line back there on my house. But that has nothing to do with the subdivision.

President Charles Anderson stated, I’d say if there’s no questions lets go ahead and vote on this. The only change on that would be adding a 5 foot right-of-way.

Director Weaver stated, yes and clarify the restrictions.

The Primary Approval for a 1 lot subdivision to be known as Wood’s Subdivision was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met. Primary approval shall be granted upon the receipt that the additional conditions by the commission. 1 is that subject to the additional 5 foot of right-of-way off of the lot onto the county road and additional that there be no restrictions set on the plat other than what is noted on the plat as we have received it.

Attorney Altman stated, we’re now ready for the secondary although Diann are we really …

Director Weaver stated, I have a copy of, I do not have the Mylar, but there is a copy of the secondary plat in there and I have reviewed it and it does meet the requirements from what I can tell.

Attorney Altman stated, it doesn’t have the 5 foot on it.

Director Weaver stated, no, it does not. They will have to correct that, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, just so that if you vote on this matter that that would be a requirement that they in fact modify this plat.

Don Ward stated, for the 5 foot of right-of-way.

Attorney Altman stated, for the 5 foot of right-of-way.

Don Ward stated, we already did it on primary.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand but it doesn’t hurt to do it both ways. I think it would be a good idea.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Woods Subdivision was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met. The conditions placed on it the same as primary approval add 5 foot right-of-way for county road.


#07-8 TSCR, LLC; Requesting Secondary approval of a Planned Unit Development to be known as Lakewood Condominiums on Lot Numbers 3, 4, 5 and 6 in Frank R. Burch’s Lakeside Second Addition, located in the City of Monticello at 208-214 N. Beach Drive.

President Charles Anderson stated, I think they are wanting to table this to the next meeting as far as the recommendation from the members of the board, is that correct?

Attorney Altman stated, very good.

Director Weaver stated, the committee has requested additional information from them.


#07-10 Caco Properties, Inc; Requesting Primary approval of a Planned Unit Development to be known as High Pointe on the Lake Condominiums on 1.05 acres, Part of Lakeside Heights Subdivision 17-27-3, located North of Indiana Beach Road off of West Shafer Drive on Pony Lane.

President Charles Anderson stated, and the committee has been working with them too. Have they. Do we have anybody here representing that request?

Mike Scheurich stated, Mike Scheurich.

President Charles Anderson asked, do we have any questions about the request now?

Director Weaver stated, I’d like to clarify one thing. It is no longer known as CaCo. It is now MiMar Development.

President Charles Anderson stated, MiMar. Is that what it says on the plat or?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, we don’t have the easement tying the ingress and egress to the PUD.

Mike Scheurich stated, I believe, and there’s all the copies, I don’t know. This was something that was found this morning that the, the, site plan that was turned into Diann for advertisement had those legal descriptions just handed to you. When I made the copies, the 2 different site plan copies I did not see that those legals did not follow thru from the surveyor. I didn’t see that the legals did not get put on the site plan. So I believe that those are the legals that you are desiring for the easement and the PUD.

Attorney Altman asked, are these the same?

Mike Scheurich stated, no. There’s 1 for the easement and there’s 1 for the PUD.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s what I thought maybe.

Don Ward stated, well when do we all get 1 of those?

Mike Scheurich stated, the, and the, …

Don Ward stated, this is ingress and egress. What’s yours.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, planned unit development.

Don Ward stated, okay.

Mike Scheurich stated, but those, those 2 legals are on the plan that, when trying to clarify some things this morning, Diann had the page that I had turned in for advertising purposes and I thought that it was the same page in making those 2 different site plan copies I thought that the legals were on there. I did not catch that, so I believe that to be the egress legals that you were wanting the first time.

Don Ward stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, there’s 1 copy here in the file that has the legal description of the property and the information for the ingress and egress on it. That is the only copy that we received.

Mike Scheurich stated, those are the same Don. You know the, the site plans are the same throughout, its just that the other 2 that were manufactured showed, you know, wells, grinders, refuse, and then the topo on the other one and the legals did not get attached to it.

Attorney Altman asked, but Diann is it properly advertised. That’s the first thing.

Director Weaver stated, it is properly as advertised, yes. This has nothing to do with the advertising.

Attorney Altman stated, the legal description, the legal description was properly advertised.

Director Weaver stated, yes. Yes.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, okay. That’s what I wasn’t sure when you were talking about.

Director Weaver stated, yeah, it just, the legal description was not provided to the board.

Don Ward stated, how about the road that was to be abandoned has been abandoned?

Director Weaver stated, I can’t answer that.

Don Ward asked, has it been abandoned.

Mike Scheurich stated, Tuesday. Didn’t you say, isn’t the meeting usually on Mondays?

Director Weaver stated, pardon me.

Mike Scheurich stated, isn’t the commissioners meeting usually on Mondays.

Director Weaver stated, it is usually on Mondays but Monday is a holiday.

Mike Scheurich stated, oh, Presidents day. So Tuesday. No because of an error in the survey of showing that the lots were contiguous to this right-of-way and they were not so we had to start that process all over again and that comes up in Tuesday’s meeting.

Mike Smolek asked, what was the other think you were going to ask him about. The fire department?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Mike Smolek stated, a letter from the fire department.

Mike Scheurich stated, yeah, I went over and talked to the Chief today to have them forward some information regarding that. I had a list of 7 items that I thought were given to my partner last week that were above and beyond, and again, I think that 2 of them were killed with the egress legals not being on the plan and so I think that will take care of 2 of the items. One of the questions that I have is you wanted to have, you wanted the units numbered.

Don Ward stated, yeah.

Mike Scheurich stated, I don’t know what to do for you. I think those will all have individual addresses and addressing has not happened. It’s not going to be 1 thru 10 and there’s 2 different floor plan types but there’s not going to, you know, I don’t know what to, what’s the…

Don Ward stated, well what’s your lawyer going to do? I mean, when he writes out the bylaws, that’s that’s what’s going to control. Is he going to want them sold by unit? In other words you can sell by units.

Mike Scheurich stated, it will be sold by and address if they all have an individual address to them and that’s, that’s one of the issues that we have as far as addressing…

Don Ward stated, well then that will be the unit number. The address will be the unit number.

Mike Scheurich stated, but we don’t have, I’m saying that I can’t put something on there that I don’t know or that will not be established I’m sure in the next 2 or 3 weeks you know and I want to, I want to give you, I want to give you what you’re asking for I just don’t know how.

Director Weaver stated, normally an address is not assigned until a building permit is issued, normally, so that’s what Mike is up against. The addresses don’t exist at this time due to the fact that we won’t assign those addresses until he actually obtains a building permit. And he’s not planning on using unit numbers.

Mike Scheurich stated, you know I can, you know, I can put 1 thru 10 but it wouldn’t mean anything to anybody in the end and so I just wondered do we just get rid of that on our list of, of…

Don Ward stated, that’s fine with me, except that, that, that’s a condition for our approval I mean, that we know, somebody knows what they are. We know what you’re going to do so…

Mike Scheurich asked, for which approval.

Don Ward stated, well, for this one. Actually almost everything has to be done at primary approval time, that’s when you rezone, right?

Director Weaver stated, yes it is.

Don Ward stated, almost everything, except the final detailed plans of the buildings and stuff and you pretty well got it, I mean.

Mike Scheurich asked, so do I, do, in, just in, in harmony of keeping with satisfying, do I throw 1 thru 10 on them and say hey, here ya go?

Don Ward stated, no, I just, that’s not a problem I don’t think.

President Charles Anderson stated, but they’re going to be named when the addresses get there anyway. That would name them all right now without actually having a name if you said each individual would have their own address and be considered as that address.

Don Ward stated, when you deed it is what I was thinking about. How do you intend to deed it by just putting down the address of the… You are going to have to; the unit number is going to be the address.

Mike Scheurich stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, so you’ll sell it by the, the deed will say such and such. Okay.

President Charles Anderson asked, is there anything else on your list that you wanted to talk to them about or you want do you want to continue with the list that you were going down.

Mike Scheurich stated, um, the, the hard surface verses verse's the grass, Bob will get that to me in the next day or two.

President Charles Anderson stated, you mean as far as green space?

Mike Scheurich stated, yeah.

President Charles Anderson stated, is that what you were, because I think you got plenty of green space there isn’t there.

Mike Scheurich stated, there’s, there’s no I don’t believe there to be any issues. The fire department I assume that he will get something to me in the next week or two. Original site plan had the setbacks and that was an architect site plan. I believe that it’s probably been possessed over 1 of the last probably couple informal meetings, but on the nice big plan when the surveyor took it from the architect he didn’t transfer which I was looking for this morning, as you were, for setbacks and I didn’t see those on there, so he will take care of putting the setbacks on that site plan and I really think the fire department will have an issue with a 90 degree turn that that where the lane comes in and he’s going ahead and redesigning the radius on that. That was about the only thing that the chief had concern over and he would convey those to me. Bylaws for primary approval.

Don Ward stated, well we can hold that until secondary. We haven’t, we done that once already because we didn’t know, we weren’t quite smart enough. See, we’ve had some meetings with HNTB and we’ve learned more about the Planned Unit Developments because we’ve had 2 meetings with them. That helped us and so we would tell you to start with that we needed the bylaws because we didn’t really know it. We learned that. But we can hold it as far as I’m concerned till the secondary approval, what do you think Denny?

Dennis Sterrett stated, well we ran into trouble on the other one. I mean. We didn’t have the bylaws.

Don Ward stated, yeah we did. But we don’t, we can hold it for secondary approval and we just won’t give it if it won’t match.

President Charles Anderson stated, so what all do you want to list on this that we’re going to hold? You want to list this on the ballot? You think we’ve got enough to go ahead with this adding things that we need to get on this primary plat…

Don Ward stated, well, he’s given us the descriptions here and…

Mike Scheurich stated, I have a, I do have a question. On the covenants and by-laws, those are a document that’s reviewed and approved and recorded correct?

Don Ward stated, yes.

Mike Scheurich stated, so between today, if I had a book of by-laws that looks confusing to me, but, if I had that and wanted to change that between now and final are there any issues with that?

Don Ward stated, yes.

Mike Scheurich stated, you know, I think that that …

Don Ward stated, yeah.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, you’d have to come back to us.

Mike Scheurich stated, and I, and I think that that needs to be a very planned well thought out and we go back to the meeting a couple weeks ago and it was briefly raised the subject and under the impression that that was part of final because that is all the dotting the I’s and crossing the T’s. So it put my mind at ease that hey that’s not on fire and I’ve got time you know, to put the proper thought and time and effort and money into it so because I think that that probably takes some time, let alone the money side of it but I’m sure that takes a fair amount of time to come up with those and I understand that it all has to be done but that was, and I really think that and my mistake for legal description on that site plan and following up with changing adding some more information to the site plan, your setbacks that did not get conveyed to the surveyor.

Don Ward stated, well I don’t know, probably if we approved this, I think it would be subject to another meeting, I mean another tech committee meeting when we go over this stuff. Make sure it matches, we ran into where the lawyer and the others didn’t agree, it can happen. One is saying one thing, ones doing another, so…

Jim Mann Jr. stated, and from a time frame that would be, how much time ahead of the next area plan meeting.

Director Weaver stated, the cutoff for the next APC….

Don Ward stated, well it would be before the secondary approval.

Director Weaver stated, the cutoff for the next area plan meeting was Friday.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, well what I’m saying is for the technical committee to review that in advance before the next meeting that might back it up then.

Director Weaver stated, but the normal, normally we should have everything in our office by Friday for it to, really at that point should play out.

Mike Scheurich stated, you’re right, and which, 29th, because that’s 2 weeks in advance of the next meeting.

Director Weaver stated, that’s for it to go out to the full board. That should be your final revisions. That should after it’s gone to the plat committee and gotten the revisions that they request.

Mike Scheurich stated, so it would be, you know, I think in a perfect world it’d be great if a primary could, and I think it would put a lot of peoples minds at ease that there was a positive direction for primary approval but I think reality would tell me that I would not be able to make requests secondary approval until April’s meeting. That would give, that gives everybody a little sigh of relief that the blessings been made to move forward. People are a little easier at requesting funds and that that were moving in the direction now lets just bring it all together and tie it up. You know, some of the things that you don’t need are the things that I have, you know, complete, the plans are ready for, to be sent to the state and all of those, you know, that stuff is complete and bylaws are probably my biggest, bylaws and the exact drainage I think are my biggest time consumers presently.

President Charles Anderson asked, so you want to give us 2 months from now to do the secondary anyways which you would have plenty of time to have another meeting with the committee.

Mike Scheurich stated, I figure that I’ll probably be camping out 2 3 times with these guys to make sure that when it does go thru that I’ve, I’ve done what’s expected. Because I think when it comes time for final if I set that as being the realistic goal that I think that ill want as much review and input so that you know I think that the extra 30 days or at least an extra 10 days beyond what you’re needing just to make sure that I have what you desire would be beneficial. I hate to think that, you know, I sit here, because timing is everything that if I come in to March for Primary I have a real gut feeling that 1 I wouldn’t know in March’s meeting that I’m going to get primary, you know, I’m not going to have the warm and fuzzy’s about having that accomplished. Then, I’m going to, and then to think that I can bring everything to April’s meeting I just think that I am into an issue with that. I don’t, you know, I’d like to see a little span of time in between the 2.

President Charles Anderson stated, so you want to go ahead and vote on this contingent ….

Mike Scheurich stated, I mean if you want some contingencies or whatever the 1 thing that we know is, I got to have everything down to the, um, the last I dotted when, you know, when it comes around. I don’t know what else that I can give you but I will do my best to do that if it doesn’t, you know, fly this evening.

President Charles Anderson asked, so what do you think Don?

Don Ward stated, well it’s a, I don’t know what to say.

President Charles Anderson stated, basically what he wants to do is (inaudible). Some changes got to be made so we can pass this contingent on a meeting or several meetings with that plat committee to hammer it all out for before the secondary comes in 2 months.

Don Ward stated, well I think, I think 2 months is really a squeeze I think May is a lot more realistic to me.

Mike Scheurich stated, I’m going to think, I’m going to think a little bit more optimistic than that Don.

Don Ward stated, I think, I think, you have a lot of trouble. If we don’t approve this tonight I think you’d have a lot of trouble getting it ready for…

Mike Scheurich stated, I’m sorry.

Don Ward stated, I think you’d have plenty to do to get it ready, get this primary ready for the March meeting. I mean, that’s my opinion by the time you get all your, well your plats are pretty well done as far as I know. Descriptions are on it. What about it technical committee? I’m not the only 1 on it.

Dave Scott asked, don’t the little description’s need to be on the plat?

Mike Scheurich stated, they are on the 1 that’s…

Don Ward stated, there on this 1.

Director Weaver stated, they are on 1 of them.

Dave Scott stated, oh, are they, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, I’ll bring it around to you.

Mike Scheurich stated, the copies that I ran today I had him email them to me to give you the copy of what is on both corners of that.

Attorney Altman stated, who else is on that committee? Gerald, ill bring it down here so you can see that it’s on there. Our engineers show this.

President Charles Anderson stated, basically the main thing might be for us tonight, if he gets this primary approved tonight contingent on fixing that, going toward that March meeting. If he doesn’t make it by the March meeting is it more money can be released for the project so it can increase the speed of the project anyway. Is that what you’re saying?

Mike Scheurich stated, well I mean, you got to understand that that’s what its, everything is based on. Timing and money are you know, are hand in hand and so that’s exactly…

President Charles Anderson stated, but you can shoot for March but if it doesn’t get there, you still got April meeting.

Mike Scheurich stated, I want, my real goal, and I think realistic goal, and I told Diann, I want 1 1 month and 1 the next. I can’t do that and I don’t think, there was enough things you now, drainage is an issue at the present time with having the plan completed. And I’m talking about for secondary and final and there has to be time for that approval, there has to be time for bylaw review and so you know I think that the realistic part is the 60 days in between primary and secondary. Because even though that that’s 60 days that’s not 60 days in Diann’s world, or or or ours, because of what has to be done. And I mean, really its going to be closer to 40 days than 60 days.

Attorney Altman stated, your proposal is for 5 units…

Mike Scheurich stated, 2 buildings of 5.

Attorney Altman stated, 2 buildings of 5. And the fact that the, that calls for lots along here doesn’t mean anything at all as far as development. There just there. You’re not putting any improvements on the L part of that.

Mike Scheurich stated, no.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s what I wanted to make sure that I understood Mike.

Mike Scheurich stated, its green space.

President Charles Anderson stated, so we got a consensus from the technical committee. I’m not going to hold you consensus to global warming or anything.

Attorney Altman stated, I think were consensing now.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, how long do you think it would take you to get those bylaws together.

Mike Scheurich stated, I think that um, I’d say either 2 or 3 weeks, you know, would be my guess. It would be in advance of a final meeting.

Dave Scott stated, I’d like to see Denny review that and make sure that…

Don Ward stated, oh, check the legal description.

Dave Scott stated, check the legal description.

Several members speaking.

Don Ward stated, if the fire department doesn’t like it they’re going to have to cut the corner. I don’t know.

Dave Scott stated, but does this legal description say what we want it to say? I’m not saying…

Don Ward stated, well I assume it does. Bob Gross has got his reputation on the line. So it better be right.

Mike Scheurich stated, in asking him that question that you’re regarding this morning he, his comment was, I don’t know that there is anything else that I can put on there but regarding the point that was trying to be made that is part of your covenant and bylaws also. That utility easement and that egress is part of the legal information that gets put in there.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, like the reason why we’re, this is an area discussion, is that we found some of the things don’t match up right. A couple of previous one’s, or at least 1 previous 1 where it was mention of something in the bylaws or visa versa. So we just want to check them out and this is what the goal of this is.

Mike Scheurich stated, you know, and I …

Jim Mann Jr. stated, and I can understand and appreciate that and I, some of the things, because its still, will have to be scrutinized and changed if somebody does not believe that something is acceptable in the 1’s that are presented it still comes down to professional legal cost without an assurance of how long do I beat the horse to not have a comfort level of moving forward. I’m very well aware of that it all has to be to your approval. I mean that’s the bottom line.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, just making sure you understand the reason that we’re trying to get these matched together.

Mike Scheurich stated, well and you know, there’s some of the things that I question at the stage, at this stage, you know, I’m probably not going to sit there and be 100% agreeable with your line of thinking but I’m on the other side of the fence so you know that can be done. I understand that it has to be done. My opinion lies more in what stage. Because it still has to meet your approval in the end anyway, so.

Dave Scott stated, my question, I was just asking Don about the legal description that you got us for the ingress and egress doesn’t mean anything to me, read that.

Don Ward stated, like I said, Gross has got his name on the line, so.

Mike Scheurich stated, well and the other thing too…

Don Ward stated, the thing that I wonder about as much as anything is that it dead ends. Do you have any plan to go on with that road somehow so that people, you’re going to get people back in there that don’t belong there, ill assure you. The worlds full of those guys. How they going to turn around and get out of there?

Mike Scheurich stated, I don’t know whether the, whether the last site where he put the T in there, whether we make that a cul-de-sac, whether we just expand it and mushroom it and pick up since its getting bumped out beyond the existing pony lane, you know, do we tie that back in. Do we want, you know, gravel spread on, you know, tracked from one end onto, you know, hard surface on the other, I don’t know what the, make them enough room to turn a vehicle around. I don’t have the answer, you know, I don’t know the…

Don Ward stated, well I live along the lake and I can tell you there’s a lot of Sunday that get back in those…

Mike Scheurich stated, it would be a lot better to make it go thru.

Don Ward stated, yeah it would. Make a horseshoe out of it.

Mike Scheurich stated, you know. But with moving, with, with dragging the stuff back Don, you know, he enlarged the end for a turn around and to me it didn’t even look big enough to turn a car around. I think it would have to be bigger personally.

Don Ward stated, yes it does. 50 feet is not enough.

Mike Scheurich stated, but that didn’t seem to be a …

President Charles Anderson asked, anybody in the audience have any questions about this?

Larry Moser stated, my name is Larry Moser. I’m the property owner to the north of Mike’s property and we’ve talked about this a little bit and I don’t think there’s an issue at all, so, but I would like him just to clarify for me, because we haven’t talked for awhile, okay, just how the road, and how, what you’re doing with this cul-de-sac and everything might impact my property or if you don’t think it will at all. I haven’t seen the diagrams and what not, what you put together since we’ve talked about a month ago, so if you could just address that a little bit I would appreciate it.

Attorney Altman stated, Larry, why don’t you come up and look at it.

President Charles Anderson stated, it’s all public record.

Dave Scott stated, see Denny so he can address explain it to you, or Don I guess can.

Don Ward stated, Denny will.

Mike Scheurich stated, I wont, I cant answer what the impact is because at that point there’s 1 residence and a business and the residence would be the last on Larry’s property would be the last on that road, you know, you drive thru outrigger resort and you get to Larry’s property that’s the last one. What the, you know, I think that the impact on the property is it will enhance the hell out of it. Now, what the answer is for whether that cul-de-sac is, or turn around, is tied back into that road or not I don’t know.

Larry Moser stated, is outriggers a private road then or…

Mike Scheurich stated, no, that’s pony lane.

Larry Moser stated, that’s pony lane.

President Charles Anderson stated, so you’re wanting to know if its going to increase traffic by you is that what you’re…

Larry Moser stated, so you’re saying the only entrance to my property then would be thru outriggers pony lane that’s it then you have to go back out that way. There’s no longer going to be a horseshoe thru there?

Mike Scheurich stated, unless, and well, because and dragging those buildings back, you know, drug that right back into the area to be vacated and so it makes that off, makes that offset, you know. Does, you know, is there a cul-de-sac, is there a lane tied back into Pony lane. I don’t know that I’ve got a real big issue but here I have a hard surface road that’s going to go back to the last property. What’s going to be done to enhance it on the other side? You know, what, you now, do we want stone and gravel coming from the north onto it? I don’t have a solid answer there Larry for what the impact is.

Larry Moser stated, well if I understand this right you’re going to pull into to your properties on the existing rock road that’s there but its going to dead end at my property but it wont continue on to the outriggers road and look thru is that right?

Mike Scheurich stated, that, that, that is correct. That’s how it is represented because PUD cuts off the road we would have to make the effort to tie the road back into and enlarged cul-de-sac, you know, make a place to turn around, or make a place to go thru. Do you want to increase traffic there or do you want it more secluded. You tell me what the impact is. You know, you can have it a little bit more enhanced by…

Larry Moser asked, is this not Pony Lane here then? Is that just an access road back?

Mike Scheurich stated, a right-of-way with nothing.

Larry Moser stated, well I don’t have a problem with it.

Mike Scheurich stated, so I think that it would be interesting to, what’s the right answer, what’s the right answer?

Larry Moser stated, the seclusion for me is not all that bad, you now, it’s private, people go back to their place then …

President Charles Anderson stated, I’d say then were probably ready to vote on this then. Anybody else in the audience have any questions about this? I think were ready to vote on it contingent upon the technical committee review.

Don Ward stated, this is the…

President Charles Anderson stated, nitty gritty. A consensus.

Don Ward stated, what I think we should do. And we will see what they say. I think we should approve it contingent upon everything being ready for a technical committee meeting and approval before it’s advertised for secondary. Now if we can get all that done you want a secondary in April?

President Charles Anderson stated, but you got to 40 days approximately to have that…

Don Ward stated, that means you got to have it done.

Director Weaver stated, well…

Mike Scheurich stated, I have, I have, I have no issue with thinking that I can comply with, it’s making sure that Bob Gross has his information done for Mr. Sterrett and that I have the bylaws ready for committee. I, you know, and there’s other things that go along with that.

Don Ward stated, well there…what do you say Dave?

Dave Scott stated, just what you said.

President Charles Anderson stated, so to make April how many days do you have before he has to advertise? Approximately.

Dave Scott asked, does he need to restate that so …

Director Weaver stated, the cut-off date for the April 14th meeting is March 24th.

Mike Scheurich stated, beautiful.

Director Weaver stated, so he would have to have been thru committee and have the corrections to me by the 24th of March.

President Charles Anderson stated, there’s 29 days in this month…

Mike Scheurich stated, and nobody’s going to be sore if there before for you guys to have. If I have a book of the covenants complete.

Don Ward stated, we have to have a little time, you know, before we have a meeting because…

Mike Scheurich stated, but what I’m saying is if I turn them in earlier for added time is that a problem or do you have, the sequential things that you don’t want somebody else’s crap in your way while you’re trying to do other things? But I could turn; I could turn this stuff in as I get it.

Director Weaver stated, the March 24th date is, if I understood Don right, you had to, have to already been in front of the committee before March 24th.

Mike Scheurich stated, okay, so what we’re going to do…

Director Weaver stated, so probably if you aim for the end of February to have that to us…

Mike Scheurich stated, March 10th.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, which means that if we ask for any more changes March 10th, whatever you give to Diann…

Director Weaver stated, the changes have to be to me by the 24th of March.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, and we might need another quick time with you to make sure, I’d hate to see back yourself up against a timing wall, if you know what I mean.

Mike Scheurich stated, well, you know, I’ll do my best to get out of …

Jim Mann Jr. stated, just so you understand the timing here on it.

Mike Scheurich stated, March 24th, when do you folks like to have you’re meetings? Is that a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, is there a specific day of the week?

Director Weaver stated, Thursday.

Don Ward stated, Thursday.

Mike Scheurich stated, so if we were to do something on the 13th, it’s Thursday the 13th, not Friday the 13th, then there’s 2 weeks in advance and that should be adequate time to review?

Don Ward stated, yeah, if we have everything a few days in advance so we can look it over. Make sure the…

Director Weaver stated, but that’s not when you have it to me. That’s going to have to be…

Mike Scheurich stated, no that’s to these. That’s to these guys.

Don Ward stated, for the technical committee.

Director Weaver stated, so you’re going to have to have it to me prior to that to get it in the mail to them.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, we could have the meeting that day but get it to us so we can look it…

Director Weaver stated, we could have the meeting that day but you’ve got to have the information to us prior to that so I can mail it out to them so they can review it to have the meeting.

President Charles Anderson stated, but you can send it in to her as you get it and then have her send it off to us.

Mike Scheurich stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, are you with us?

Jim Mann Jr. stated, a week in advance Don?

Don Ward stated, we need it a week in advance, yeah.

Mike Scheurich stated, okay.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, so we can get it by the 6th.

Mike Scheurich stated, okay, so, so the 6th.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, does that make sense Diann?

Director Weaver stated, if that leaves enough time to get it to you guys.

Don Ward stated, we’ll have to stop in and pick it up.

Gerald Cartmell stated, hand delivered.

Director Weaver stated, hey.

Mike Scheurich stated, okay. You know the, I don’t think that there’s issue; you know with that I would just hope that, Bob would have the information ready. I think I can get the requested information on my end done but the things I don’t have any control over, prodding bob maybe I can get all of that complete.

Don Ward stated, do you have an attorney working on the by-laws at this time?

Mike Scheurich stated, mmm hmmm.

Don Ward stated, so he’s getting them ready.

Mike Scheurich stated, there’s still a wealth of information that I think, you know, some of that’s boiler plate information…

Don Ward stated, right, I understand that.

Mike Scheurich stated, and then some of its specifics and so I think that you gather what you can out of different things and make sure that you protect yourself and those are the things that take more time than anything.

President Charles Anderson stated, I’d say we’ve got enough with this consensus for the technical committee …

Don Ward asked, everybody happy with that? You want a motion on it?

President Charles Anderson stated, do we have a motion ….

Don Ward stated, but Denny.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I’d like to comment that I don’t believe this ingress egress description follows this plat at all.

Mike Scheurich stated, I have no idea.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I don’t either, not having the time to study it.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay, contingent on meeting with the technical committee …

Attorney Altman stated, the survey is being correct.

Mike Scheurich stated, if if there’s, I mean truly if there’s any question at all then, you know, and you’ve got the professional people that you’re paying to make that legal, and you’re just talking about just for the and egress.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah, I’m sure it doesn’t follow the plat.

Mike Scheurich stated, then he’s the one that needs chewed on a little bit if there’s any validity to it.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I don’t think that’s up to us. I think that’s up to you to get it right.

Mike Scheurich stated, well there’s no question but how that, how would I know?

Dennis Sterrett stated, I’m just reporting it to you.

Mike Scheurich stated, that’s fine and I want that.

Don Ward stated, this will be a little bit of what were checking, right, for that technical meeting.

Dave Scott stated, that’s right.

Don Ward stated, we’ll be all this stuff. We shouldn’t have to do that, frankly. I mean, his name is on the line.

Director Weaver stated, I have a question for the information to be reviewed by the committee. Are we including the drainage plan?

Don Ward stated, everything.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah.

Director Weaver stated, okay, I just wanted that one clarified because we had not brought that up.

Mike Scheurich stated, that’s what we were just, yeah.

Don Ward stated, they already talked about that didn’t they.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, they got to have everything or it doesn’t get heard.

President Charles Anderson stated, okay, let’s go ahead and vote.

Don Ward asked, do you want a motion?

President Charles Anderson stated, the motion would be that the technical committee review everything on the 13th and have the, and Mike have all the information to the technical committee by the 6th was it?

Mike Scheurich stated, mmm hmmm.

Director Weaver stated, he has to have it to me by the 6th.

President Charles Anderson stated, and all the legal descriptions and everything are presented to them right, correct. Is that the motion?

Don Ward stated, have to have approval from, this is contingent upon approval by the technical committee at their next meeting with us.

President Charles Anderson stated, is there a motion or a show of hands on it then. Show of hands in favor of that motion. Did you count them?

Attorney Altman stated, no, do it again. That would be the majority.

President Charles Anderson stated, majority with 1 abstention. Either that or he’s raising his hand.

David Rosenbarger stated, I’m totally lost, so.

Attorney Altman stated, well it’s in the hands. You’re voting that it’s in the hand of the technical committee.

David Rosenbarger stated, so, what’s the reason of voting on it for the next…

Attorney Altman stated, not much.

Don Ward stated, you’re right.

David Rosenbarger stated, there’s where I’m lost. If you got to go thru all this stuff then why even vote on it.

Mike Scheurich stated, well, and the, you now, here I’m sitting, you know, asking the question of some of the requirements and having an opinion, trust me. The, I think that with all of the from a financial standpoint that there is a large commitment. We’ve asked, or you know, we’ve had meetings, we’ve provided what I believed was the adequate information, we jump in with some other request. Which I’m not against fulfilling anything but I think that there’s some other professional legal lending institutions that would like to see primary approval based with the information that they’ve been given for me and with the information that we’ve provided you folks and that, so, to me, it’s primary approval no matter what. If I don’t have all the requested information correct and complete for that April meeting which is the March deadline I don’t get it, we go to May. So it’s for, to me its down to primary approval and I get my poop in a group for ya for April meeting by March 6th. I think it’s simple.

David Rosenbarger stated, yeah, I’m still confused because even…

Don Ward stated, well it gives him a little more time than just the time between March and April for his secondary because if we find stuff wrong, if you see what I mean.

David Rosenbarger stated, well I see what you mean but you’re still meeting in your executive so this don’t mean nothing.

Don Ward stated, it means it’s going to be approved once we approve everything.

Director Weaver stated, the voting tonight will give it the ok to be forwarded on to the County Commissioners next week for them to vote on the Primary Approval.

Don Ward stated, oh, that’s right.

David Rosenbarger stated, there’s still an awful lot of grey out here that it’s still in your guys’ hands to make a recommendation back to the board.

Director Weaver stated, but that’s the next step. That is the next step.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, which secondary will be April.

Don Ward stated, this can’t go …

Director Weaver stated, we can’t hold, we can’t hold it, no. We have, I believe I read, we’ve got 10 days from the time you guys vote to get it forwarded to the County Commissioners.

Don Ward stated, so you have to go to the Commissioners?

David Rosenbarger asked, well how do you forward it to the County Commissioners without an approval? I mean, you’re actually…

Director Weaver stated, that’s what, I mean your, that’s what you’re doing with the vote.

David Rosenbarger stated, but we’ve got, I mean, I don’t know, I guess I’ve talked to you about this before. You’re approving something that you shouldn’t.

Director Weaver stated, I understand what you’re saying.

David Rosenbarger stated, it’s not done.

Gerald Cartmell stated, it’s got a lot of baggage. It’s got a lot of baggage with it.

David Rosenbarger stated, you bet ya.

Director Weaver stated, if this board votes though tonight I have 10 days to forward it on to the County Commissioners.

David Rosenbarger stated, see that’s the part, and all of his intentions are great but the whole idea behind a PUD is you’re forming your own little village here. I mean, you’re breaking; you’re throwing all the rules out and making up your own rules.

Mike Scheurich stated, but, but, don’t those rules have to meet your approval and don’t they have to be a hundred percent to your satisfaction. You know what I’m saying?

David Rosenbarger stated, and I agree with you there.

Mike Scheurich stated, you know what I’m saying, and what I’m attempting as the passing of primary, 60-80, you know, I still have to have the info. If I think that I’m ambitious to get the thing moving for the April meeting for secondary then I got to be pretty ambitious to get the rest of the information to ya. And if you don’t like it then were going to May and that’s secondary. But primary is behind us and it doesn’t leave me two weeks time to come for March’s meeting with the information that you have in hand that we’ve provided that we thought was adequate one time and now we need to have more. You know. I want that primary approval to go because hey, secondary doesn’t, that does rest solely in your hands and I do have to have everything complete.

Mike Smolek stated, if it goes to the commissioners its then contingent of what this is written out here right?

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, it has to be.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Mike Smolek stated, so basically with the primary we’re buying him some time to get this stuff done and then if it’s not done by secondary it’s done.

David Rosenbarger stated, but then if you’re talking about buying, what time are we buying, I mean…

Mike Smolek stated, he can’t get the information to us by Friday.

Don Ward asked, will the county commissioners….

David Rosenbarger stated, if we just table this tonight, what does that cost?

Don Ward stated, that’s about all you can do is recommend he table it.

Mike Smolek stated, it’s going to cost him a month.

Director Weaver stated, they could and they could revert it back to you guys.

Attorney Altman stated, it’s the same month.

David Rosenbarger stated, it’s the same month but they can’t approve it/

Mike Smolek stated, it will push him back till May.

Mike Scheurich stated, well Dave, my, you know, my side of, you know, wanting to, you know, I want to comply.

David Rosenbarger stated, I know you do.

Mike Scheurich stated, you know, and, my ideology is if I can get the thing thru primary then, you know, that part is behind, now everything is relying on you guys and myself in providing all of you the information but it doesn’t press me when we find a flaw between March and April and then I get April’s held up. Let’s get April’s held up by my own fault and try to have plenty of time. Let’s get the primary behind us and go with the, and hopefully I’ve got plenty of adequate time for secondary.

Director Weaver stated, Mike do you realize that even if this board votes tonight and it gets forwarded on to the County Commissioners next Tuesday that the County Commissioners can either table it, they can deny it, or they can throw it back to this board.

Mike Scheurich stated, hey…

Director Weaver stated, it will still delay you until March.

Don Ward stated, why not….

Mike Scheurich stated, lets roll it.

Don Ward stated, why not hold this, because it isn’t approved, it’s only contingent approval. Until it is, until committee says it’s ok and then give it to the Commissioners.

President Charles Anderson stated, get him into trouble with the lending facilities in the sub prime lending environment.

Director Weaver stated, but he has no guarantee that he’s going to get any action out of the Commissioners either.

David Rosenbarger stated, financially it doesn’t do him any good because it’s; you’re voting contingent which means it didn’t pass.

President Charles Anderson stated, yeah.

David Rosenbarger stated, so I mean, that’s not a, that’s not a issue here for financials because you put a contingency on it, it didn’t pass. So, I guess, that’s my whole concern. Are we rushing things thru?

Mike Scheurich stated, I don’t disagree with with your thought process because to me I am still, well take a look, look at it like this is what Don’s asking for. Contingent upon, well contingent upon that’s when everything’s just wanting to go for final. That’s secondary approval and I think that I’m just trying to, with information at hand it, do we vote on primary approval tonight?

President Charles Anderson stated, on March 12th though, if he’s got everything in the way it should be then primary approval is approved at that point which puts him in advance of the month later secondary otherwise he would be another month beyond that.

Don Ward stated, another month.

Mike Scheurich stated, it’s just interest.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess the answer’s is he’s asked for the vote so we’re ready to vote. Is the bottom line.

President Charles Anderson stated, but we’ve already made it contingent.

Attorney Altman stated, and you’ve already made it contingent, yes Doc. So that we don’t talk about it now you vote whether you want it or don’t and just say yes or no.

Don Ward stated, well.

Attorney Altman stated, the board does I mean.

Dennis Sterrett asked, how do the Commissioners see that when it comes down there? Do they see it contingent upon…?

Director Weaver stated, yes I will let them know of these contingencies at the time that I present it to them or prior, I can send it in their paperwork. Jerry I have a question if the board denies it tonight, well it still gets forwarded on to the Commissioners.

Attorney Altman stated, it still gets forwarded on to the commissioners.

Director Weaver stated, yeah, I answered my own question.

Attorney Altman stated, it just gets a unfavorable recommendation. So it will go to the Commissioners no matter what and then they may do something different.

Mike Scheurich stated, what’s that do, you know, what’s that do for the developer, the owner? What does, what does an unfavorable recommendation do for the developer with the commissioners?

President Charles Anderson stated, they would probably turn it down completely.

Don Ward stated, it doesn’t do you any good. They have the final, they have the final vote.

Attorney Altman stated, they have the final say. They have the final say.

Don Ward stated, they don’t usually go against us.

Attorney Altman stated, they can give, they can approve 1 that is unfavorable, okay, they can approve it. They have the final say.

President Charles Anderson stated, but likely they, they won’t.

Mike Scheurich stated, well, I mean…

Director Weaver stated, if they deny it then he would have to re-file and start over from step 1.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, yeah, yeah basically. There’s no application for us if it’s denied. Just the way it always is.

Don Ward stated, well that’s true.

Attorney Altman stated, ballots in for vote.

Don Ward stated, maybe we can’t really comprise after all. To risky for you.

Mike Scheurich stated, well, I you know I’m asking, hey, I want some help and guidance from ya, I don’t, I done need anything but that.

Don Ward stated, well we don’t want to get ya, we don’t want to get ya in trouble either, that’s not to smart either.

Mike Scheurich stated, what you’re telling me, you know, is, you know, I understand.

President Charles Anderson stated, if you got a favorable pass from us I would say that they would go with it and if we didn’t, if it didn’t get favorable from us tonight then they wouldn’t go.

Mike Scheurich stated, well and then what happens from there with the starting you know, do I get everything…

President Charles Anderson stated, it would be the same information brought to us but you’d have to start the process all over again.

Mike Scheurich stated, yeah, the advertising, the cost, you know, the time…

Attorney Altman stated, all that, all that.

Mike Scheurich stated, so, so it comes down to do I have enough information on here without the bylaws and the covenants for primary approval, I think that that’s as simple as I can make it. Have I provided enough information over the last couple months to be able to do that without the bylaws?

President Charles Anderson stated, not without that contingency.

Don Ward stated, not really. I mean. We should have had all of this in advance so that we had a chance to look it over before.

Mike Scheurich stated, the legal I can understand that.

Don Ward stated, but we’re really trying to compromise here.

Attorney Altman stated, from the legal point of view. Not all but on a compromise basis I can see why the board is considering this as a potential.

Mike Scheurich stated, yeah, this is just information for clarification. This is not in any PUD requirement that is approved by the county at the present time that I have bylaws; this is purely a request of information by the area plan board for the bylaws.

Don Ward stated, well, even if you forget the bylaws. You can forget the bylaws, it still doesn’t meet, it doesn’t really meet our requirements by law. I mean, we’re trying to compromise here is what were trying to do. Give you some more; give you a little additional time.

Mike Scheurich asked, what doesn’t?

Don Ward stated, we didn’t have the stuff in advance. We didn’t have the ingress and egress straightened out; we didn’t have the other stuff done. I mean, you got it here to us tonight but were supposed to have….

Mike Scheurich stated, and I don’t have the fire department information done but there I’m dealing with some things that were…

Don Ward stated, but were trying to compromise is what were trying to do.

Mike Scheurich stated, and and and and …..

Attorney Altman stated, but you can get a no vote on a compromise.

Mike Scheurich stated, but in the spirit of the compromise…

Don Ward stated, we don’t want to get you into trouble while were doing it.

Mike Scheurich asked, is there adequate information regarding my conceptual design and current site plan for, for a, for a vote.

Don Ward stated, we don’t know.

Attorney Altman stated, we don’t know until we vote. We don’t know till we vote. That’s decided by 8 members or members.

Don Ward stated, that’s it, that’s the problem, we don’t know.

President Charles Anderson stated, the other question is no because I don’t understand the egress stuff, it just showed up tonight and I don’t …

Mike Scheurich stated, no the egress stuff was, was, was, was what I failed to do was get a, a, a, I did not see that the legal descriptions were not attached. They were there, they were advertised correctly and that type of thing. Denny brings up a good point of validity. I don’t know, I don’t know, it’s not my, not my gig.

Attorney Altman asked, so do you want us to vote on this contingency now?

Mike Scheurich asked, do you want to?

Attorney Altman stated, no, that’s you.

President Charles Anderson stated, that’s your decision.

Attorney Altman stated, your decision. I can’t do that, I can’t walk that line.

Mike Scheurich stated, well, I don’t have, any warm and fuzzy’s that because were talking about bylaws or that I haven’t given enough information to, to, I don’t have the confidence in, in, in the vote right at the present time so you know, what do we do? Hang er out?

Attorney Altman stated, no, you table it.

Don Ward stated, probably the best thing.

Attorney Altman stated, or you vote. Table or vote. Basically you’re at that point.

Mike Scheurich stated, well I’m at that point, its bedtime and you know, if you know, for what you, for how you made me feel 30 minutes ago until now that’s 2 different emotions so I guess….

Don Ward stated, well that’s probably my fault because I wasn’t thinking about the fact that the commissioners have got to have this Damn thing and they, I didn’t know she had to put it in there 10 days by law so…

Mike Scheurich stated, but I’m not disagreeing with Dave’s, his comment is correct, or his apprehension is correct because the contingency does not mean anything, I mean, I don’t disagree with your question. You know, its primary and it’s secondary. That’s all that I can boil it down to. You obviously do not believe that I have enough information or you at least give me that feeling so I think that it is my best interest to table it and move to March.

Attorney Altman stated, so moved.

Don Ward stated, I think you’re right.

Attorney Altman stated, may I have the ballots back please.

Don Ward stated, to be safe.

Mike Scheurich asked, any other questions before I leave.

Don Ward stated, now get ready and we’ll have that technical committee

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, I mean, get with the technical committee right away and move. That sounds great.

Mike Scheurich stated, thanks for all your time.

President Charles Anderson stated, thank you.

Several members talking at once.

Attorney Altman stated, and Gerald, why don’t you just destroy that. I was going to say, anybody that has in fact signed something probably ought to just destroy it since he’s asked to table it. We will need a new set of ballots.


President Charles Anderson stated, next on the agenda would be business I guess.

Don Ward stated, hey, what about, Denny and I could go to a meeting on Planned Unit Developments.

President Charles Anderson stated, why, do we have a business meeting?

Don Ward stated, on condominiums.

President Charles Anderson asked, oh, what did you say?

Don Ward stated, no, its condominium law. It’s $175.00 a piece. Would that go to the commissioners or this board?

Director Weaver stated, my budget does have money for training. I just don’t remember how much. I was going to look, I apologize I didn’t get that done.

Mike Smolek stated, if there’s not enough money ask the commissioners for the rest.

President Charles Anderson asked, does somebody want to make a vote on sending those 2.

Mike Smolek stated, I make a motion to send both of them.

President Charles Anderson stated, all in favor raise your right hand.

President Charles Anderson asked, anybody in the audience have any questions?

Director Weaver stated, Larry, did you have anything you wanted to address with the board?

Larry Moser stated, no.

Director Weaver stated, a couple things I want to tell you that was laying at your places.

President Charles Anderson stated, laying at your places is …

Director Weaver stated, we’re going to give you a test so you have to read this. No, actually Dave Stimmel, president of the BZA asked that I give this to the BZA and he and I both thought that maybe it would be beneficial to the Area Plan members as well so I’ve made you a copy of this. He went to this training and thought it was very beneficial so I’ve given you a copy of that. I’ve also given you a list of everybody’s email addresses I thought that might be helpful to you. And hopefully I’ve gotten a copy of Draft 5 of the zoning ordinance to all of you. If someone does not have 1 let me know. Dave Stimmel, I have yours here tonight. Don’t leave without it.

Dave Stimmel stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, and I think that sums up all I have.

President Charles Anderson asked, do I hear a motion to adjourn.

David Rosenbarger made a motion to adjourn.

Member of the board seconded the motion.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission





























Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________