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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, September 8, 2008, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Mike Smolek, David Scott, Gerald Cartmell, Donald W. Ward, Greg Bossaer, and Dennis Sterrett. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.


Visitors Attending were: Charles R. Mellon, Vicki D. Hettinger, Tony Smolek, Alfred D. Bunch, Carol Trentlage, Susan Frost, and Kevin Ward (Deputy).

The meeting was called to order by Secretary Don Ward and roll call was taken. Greg Bossaer made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the July 28, 2008, August 11, 2008, and August 18, 2008 meetings. Motion was seconded by Dave Scott and carried unanimously.


#960 Vicki D. Hettinger; The property is located on Lot 36 in Citizen’s Addition, in the City of Monticello, Union Township, located at 446 Turpie Street and 610 N. Second Street.

Violation: This property had 2 grandfathered structures that were used as 3 dwelling units and one is being rebuilt without the proper zoning or meeting the setback requirements.

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-2 to R-3.

Don Ward stated, you are here to represent.

Vicki Hettinger stated, yes my name is Vicki D. Hettinger. I live at 112 Heritage Road, Monticello, Indiana and um the property in question is my mothers property, she, um, I think it’s been 4 or 5 years ago put in my name when she become a widow. And um, recently my mom was diagnosed with dementia and Alzheimer’s and the way this came about, we were going to remodel the apartment, she had renters for years. The apartment was just rotting basically. They had moved out, the families that were in them. We were going to redo the property. Well when we got in there and started ripping off the paneling and the walls and stuff we found out everything was rotted so we just started tearing it down to redo everything and um, I had come up, I’m not sure what day it was to get a roofing permit because we were told as long as there were walls standing and we didn’t change foundation that we didn’t need permit until we went to re-roof. So I had come up to get a permit to put a new roof on the building and uh that’s when I found out all this stuff.

Don Ward stated, you thought a roof…

Vicki Hettinger stated, pardon.

Don Ward stated, you thought a roof not the superstructure right.

Vicki Hettinger stated, well I didn’t…

Don Ward started, not just the covering.

Vicki Hettinger stated, well, I’m not a builder, but I went thru with Mr., is his name Anderson?

Don Ward stated, yeah.

Vicki Hettinger stated, you know, that day, he asked what we were doing. I explained to him you know, I don’t know all these technical building terms and that but I had explained to him, answered every question he had asked me basically and explained the things we had and he said he’d get back with me. He asked me about the land where it set and all that. And I told him that we had asked Mr. the surveyor to come and survey it that when I got that that I would bring it up here. And so that is what we, what happened and so then I was told, you know, when we started tearing the structure, you know, apart like we were that we had broke grandfather clauses and all that and so I said well what do I need to do. I said this is what I’m trying to accomplish is rebuilding this so that my husband and I can move here so I can be next to my mother and not move her out of her home she’s lived in for 60 years and what do I need to do and this is what they told me.

Don Ward stated, I think it should be brought up to the board that it says in the analysis of the staff report it states that the property meets the minimum size requirements for the R-3 zoning which requires the minimum lot size of 7,000 square feet for a single family residence and then add 2,000 square feet for each additional dwelling unit and minimum lot width of 50’ for a single story structure. It has the 50’ lot width but it does not have the 11,000 square feet that would be required for R-3 or the 7,000 for an R-2. It has 6600 square feet and their request is to rezone from R-2 to R-3 multi-family residence. Diann, do you want to go into that? It no longer has grandfather…

Director Weaver stated, the grandfather clause was broken when they, when they…

Don Ward stated, started changing it.

Director Weaver stated, the house more than 50%.

Don Ward stated, do we have questions from the board?

Dave Scott stated, change…it says here that it’s not meeting the proper setbacks either. If it gets changed to R-3 will it meet the setbacks or will she have to go thru the…

Director Weaver stated, they, they will still have to go thru a variance.

Vicki Hettinger stated, I have filed for a variance also.

Dave Scott stated, and she will need a space variance also.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, your intention is to live there?

Vicki Hettinger stated, yes.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, because your mother lives in the…

Vicki Hettinger stated, the house that’s there.

Director Weaver stated, 2 families have moved. 1 in each home.

Vicki Hettinger stated, for years it’s been a duplex apartment and there were families living in each unit when my mother took care of things. And it’s just been within the last 2 years that her mental health has deteriorated and …

Don Ward asked, why should we change from R-2 to R-3?

Director Weaver stated, because you can not have more than 1 primary structure…

Don Ward stated, oh that’s right.

Vicki Hettinger stated, see, I don’t know, I just said, tell me what I need to do.

Director Weaver stated, R-3 will allow you to have 2 separate structures.

Don Ward stated, and that’s what they should do.

Vicki Hettinger stated, what.

Director Weaver stated, possibly join the 2 together…

Don Ward stated, join the 2 together somehow so you have 1 structure, 1 primary structure in the R-2 zoning.

Director Weaver stated, still wouldn’t meet setbacks, still wouldn’t meet space.

Don Ward stated, still have to have a variance from the BZA. They’re close together as I see it.

Vicki Hettinger stated, yeah, um, the back of the apartment goes to my mom’s garage. I mean, there’s like. I don’t know, however big that is from the edge of the house to my mom’s garage.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, looks like 6 feet.

Vicki Hettinger stated, 6 foot, 6 foot, 7 foot.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, roughly I mean, now taking it from..

Vicki Hettinger stated, from the edge of the, where the edge of the apartments were to my moms garage.

Gerald Cartmell asked, are you doing your own work or is there a contractor?

Vicki Hettinger stated, well, myself, my husband, my brother, my brother in laws…

Don Ward stated, are there any members of the audience that have any interest in this? Anymore questions from…

Director Weaver asked, when was that house turned into a duplex?

Vicki Hettinger stated, it’s been a du...., I was born in 1957 and as far as I can remember it’s been that way since then.

Director Weaver stated, ok..

Don Ward asked, is there…

Vicki Hettinger stated, I think my parents bought it like that.

Mike Smolek asked, is there any other R-2’s or R-3’s in there, that specific area.

Director Weaver stated, the normal zoning around there is R-2. And that’s what they’re currently zoned but there are no R-3’s in the area that I’m aware of.

Vicki Hettinger stated, um, down on third, I think it’s the corner of Turpie and Third I think that’s multiple, where Kevin, oh, not Kevin, David and Becky Mayhill lived, that lot has 2 houses on it too and then down on the opposite end of Turpie I think there’s…

Attorney Altman asked, do they have houses or are they zoned R-3?

Vicki Hettinger stated, see I don’t know, I never checked into any of that. I just know, you know, where Becky and David lived there.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t know either.

Vicki Hettinger stated, their lot has 2 houses on that.

Attorney Altman stated, I think that’s something the department ought to look at and let the city now since they have the final say on this.

Vicki Hettinger stated, and they don’t own it. Mayhill’s don’t own it, they sold it to someone else, just recently.

Don Ward asked, would the board be interested in a commitment that there would be no more than 2 families on that property or do you care one way or another.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, and then as a part I guess, the fact that you would tie them together.

Vicki Hettinger asked, we would have to do that?

Jim Mann Jr. sated, well…

Don Ward stated, if you did that, you tied them together, no that wouldn’t…

Attorney Altman stated, they’d have to be…

Vicki Hettinger stated, the only thing I’m thinking and I know that this probably sounds, I don’t know if it sounds selfish or not. My mother has Alzheimer’s and you know, if she should set fire or something, I, you know…

Attorney Altman stated, we can’t hardly change the rules, is what…

Vicki Hettinger stated, I know, I’m just saying.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand that but…

Gerald Cartmell stated, it’s a good place to start out with so it don’t matter.

Dave Scott stated, I don’t like the idea here about changing the zoning but is there a way we can reinstate her grandfather clause so that she can just live in like it is and when she’s done with it, passed on, then it, cause somebody, when these people are gone, somebody may come in there and bulldoze that down and put up a apartment building. Maybe that’s not what’s conducive for the neighborhood. Can’t we just let er operate like she is without changing the zoning?

Don Ward stated, well wouldn’t a commitment do the same thing. When they have a commitment that only 2 families could live on that property…

Dave Scott stated, or 3.

Don Ward stated, or, well 2.

Vicki Hettinger stated, there would never be a time for any more than…

Don Ward stated, even if it was zoned R-3, there would only be, there could only be 2 families with a commitment.

Vicki Hettinger stated, and you know, frankly, I think, when my mom’s gone, her house is probably going to have to be tore down. I mean, if it’s anything like the apartments, like we just got into.

Dave Scott stated, well as long as the commitments, on the deed or somewhere there that says if somebody buys it thinking there going to put up a high rise that they can say, well there’s a commitment with this..

Director Weaver stated, a commitment, it’s recorded with the rezoning ordinance that gets recorded in the Recorders office.

Don Ward stated, if the property is disturbed again it automatically reverts to R-2

Attorney Altman stated, just don’t go to R-3.

Don Ward stated, well, that’s the best way. If we have the….

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I think R-3 creates a potential problem.

Vicki Hettinger stated, see I don’t even know what it is.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, well.

Director Weaver stated, R-3 is multi-family.

Vicki Hettinger stated, okay, my thing was when we ran into all this problem I just asked her and the other girl, I said, you know, this is what I’m trying to accomplish, what do I need to do to accomplish that, you know, what do I need to apply for?

Dave Scott asked, what’s her options besides rezoning? What’s her options outside of rezoning it?

Attorney Altman stated, get a variance with a commitment.

Vicki Hettinger stated, with the setbacks and all that.

Director Weaver stated, yeah, but she would have to connect them.

Attorney Altman stated, isn’t exactly the way. They have the right to make that proposal to the BZA.

Mike Smolek asked, has any neighbors filed a complaint or anything like that?

Vicki Hettinger stated, no, actually, a lot of the neighbors have come down when we had started working on it and they were all thrilled and several of them have offered for us to help if this goes thru and we need help now since we are running later than we had anticipated.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, so, to comply with R-2 they would need to be connected.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, and have a variance.

Vicki Hettinger stated, I would hate to connect them if we don’t have to.

Director Weaver stated, yeah, variance isn’t…

Vicki Hettinger stated, right. And since almost all the houses down in that area sit the same way, I mean, their, you know, 8-10 foot from the road, all of them.

Mike Smolek stated, what if you split the lot and got a variance that way.

Director Weaver stated, can’t. It has to be a subdivision with the lot size.

Mike Smolek asked, would that give them more compliance though?

Vicki Hettinger stated, well, and the one thing, all the water’s on the same thing.

Don Ward asked, well, what about the BZA, would they give a variance for the 2 buildings on the …

Jim Mann Jr. stated, it’s on the same meter.

Vicki Hettinger stated, for the 2 apartments and the house, and they always have been, every since I was…

Director Weaver stated, but can they?

Attorney Altman stated, that would be awful tough to do. That’s why they have to join them to have any chance at all. They may not have any chance getting a variance either.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I think joinings…

Attorney Altman stated, we have a new ordinance now.

Director Weaver stated, well, her variance is filed under the old ordinance.

Attorney Altman asked, is this one…

Director Weaver stated, they were both filed…

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, but the variance isn’t filed.

Vicki Hettinger stated, I filed a variance.

Director Weaver stated, it’s already filed.

Attorney Altman stated, could be different.

Gerald Cartmell stated, yeah, I just don’t want to make a burden for her.

Mike Smolek stated, yeah but were going to sign here but then if she pleads hardship back in the BZA then that’s, you guys will have to deal with it that way.

Gerald Cartmell stated, yeah, we were thinking about that too.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, if she joins them, what’s the ramifications to BZA?

Vicki Hettinger stated, I know it’s a mess, right.

Mike Smolek stated, what if, lets go down the road where she says the house, the other house might not be that good, put some kind of stipulation, let em build this house better, bigger, or whatever that when her mom is gone the other house can not be rebuilt, it must be taken down and then their will be 1 nice house on the property and then the other one has time to be done and it gets taken out of that lot. Is there a way you can write it in that way?

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, you can, they have the master of that. I mean, yeah you can…

Vicki Hettinger stated, that sounds good, because like I said, my mother’s house, I, you know, I don’t know 100% sure that it’s got termites, but the floors, I think are…

Dave Scott stated, because it almost, it looks like the first house, the 1 closest to the road is the one that’s actually out of compliance if that one comes down in 10 years then the other one’s right in the middle of the lot per say and it would be okay on your setbacks and so on and so forth.

Director Weaver stated, it still doesn’t meet front setbacks.

Vicki Hettinger stated, right, none, but none of the houses do. The apartment or the house.

Mike Smolek stated, right, but if you look at it, this is the one they would be taking down.

Vicki Hettinger stated, nobody on those streets do.

Gerald Cartmell stated, nobody on those streets do.

Dave Scott stated, that’s typical in a small town.

Vicki Hettinger stated, nobody in those 5 or 6 blocks around meet that.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, because I went by there.

Attorney Altman stated, to answer your question, the truth is, she has to basically figure out what she wants to propose and propose it.

Vicki Hettinger stated, so if I want to…

Attorney Altman stated, and BZA isn’t here to tell her. And you got to have a variance anyway.

Gerald Cartmell stated, we’re trying to make it easy for her but what do we do.

Don Ward stated, there’s not much we can do.

Director Weaver stated, well, when it comes to BZA is going to depend on what happens to you.

Vicki Hettinger stated, see the whole thing…

Don Ward stated, if we was in on the R-3 then we should have a commitment that it cannot have more than 2 families on it and that once anything is changed…

Vicki Hettinger stated, I will commit to that, I have no problem…

Don Ward stated, it automatically reverts back to R-2 and then it’s up to BZA, if they don’t want to do anything its dead anyway. That’s just a suggestion of mine. It may be no good.

Vicki Hettinger stated, you mean a family in the one we’re redoing and my mom in hers.

Don Ward stated, right.

Vicki Hettinger stated, I have no problem committing to that.

Gerald Cartmell stated, and it’s got to pass the city.

Vicki Hettinger stated, believe me, it was worse than that before because there were 10 Hispanic people living in that little building and that my mom had live there for the last 10 years.

Mike Smolek stated, so the house you’re rebuilding is just going to be 1 single house, its not being built back as apartments.

Vicki Hettinger stated, right, there, there is a floor plan of what I’m planning on doing in some packet someplace. I don’t know…

Greg Bossaer stated, so there aren’t a lot of other options if they don’t want to…

Vicki Hettinger stated, I mean, we didn’t change the foundation or anything.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, she doesn’t want to join them.

Vicki Hettinger stated, I think it would look silly joined because it likes half… I think that would look, but that’s what were planning, it’s the same size foundation, I think its 24 x 48 and were just making a little home there.

Dave Scott stated, is it, who…

Vicki Hettinger stated, it was a 2 bedroom apartment and a 1 bedroom apartment and we just started knocking out all the rotten walls and rotting ceiling.

Dave Scott stated, just putting a breezeway thru, is that connecting them?

Attorney Altman stated, not really.

Gerald Cartmell stated, not really.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t believe there connecting.

Gerald Cartmell stated, show me. Well, if we got to have documentation, we might as well get down to it. Is that right?

Attorney Altman stated, I just don’t believe that would be connecting, they would have to be actually 2 structures or a duplex. If it is a duplex. In other words we’re arguing about semantics but you know, if you just make it into a breezeway, that’s physically connected, but is that structurally connected?

Vicki Hettinger stated, so if I build it back a duplex, its okay?

Attorney Altman stated, always go back to use Gerald, that’s what I’m talking about.

Gerald Cartmell stated, so if she makes it a sunroom between them, would that …

Attorney Altman stated, that certainly, that’s a use.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t think there’s room for a room an actual room.

Gerald Cartmell stated, its only 6 foot.

Director Weaver asked, is it 6 foot?

Gerald Cartmell stated, isn’t it?

Don Ward stated, it’s not very far.

Vicki Hettinger stated, it’s probably not 6. It’s maybe 6, but I don’t know that it is between the…

Dave Scott stated, I’ll make a note when we do a …

Vicki Hettinger stated, that’s also where the water meter is, back there on that side of the house.

Mike Smolek stated, the water meter is between the 2 houses.

Vicki Hettinger stated, mmm hmm. Well the shut off is behind the duplex between the garage and between my mom’s garage and the…

Dave Scott stated, Don, ill make a motion we do what you you said. Don can you repeat that, cause I…

Don Ward stated, a motion’s been made that we request a commitment from you that this is rezoned R-3 that no more than 2 families can live on this property…

Vicki Hettinger stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, and that at the end, that if any disturbance comes, in other words, any change is made when your mother passes on, that the property reverts back to R-2 zoning.

Dave Scott asked, would that be if the property changes hands or anything?

Don Ward stated, right, it automatically goes back to R-2.

Vicki Hettinger stated, okay, and that just means, ok, wait just a minute; before I say yes, I think that’s ok but, let me ask question.

Don Ward stated, what it means is that you would sign a commitment that if this is rezoned R-3 tonight, that you would agree to never have more than 2 families living there at the same time, and then at the property, if the property is ever sold or if you tear down a house or you start to make changes that are automatically reverts back to R-2.

Vicki Hettinger stated, okay.

Don Ward stated, in other words, especially if you tear down a house.

Vicki Hettinger stated, right, if something happened to my mother and…

Don Ward stated, when you try to sell it, you you can’t sell it as an R-3, it goes back to an R-2.

Dennis Sterrett stated, if it does go back that way then 1 house has to come down, correct?

Don Ward stated, right, that’s right.

Vicki Hettinger stated, okay, that’s, that’s, the question I was trying to get at. If something happened to my mother, we could take her house away and it would be fine, right.

Dave Scott stated, right

Don Ward stated, yes. Okay, then it would revert back to R-2. Alright, we have a motion for that, do we have a second.

Gerald Cartmell stated, second.

Don Ward stated, second. We have a second.

Attorney Altman asked, still have to have a variance, right.

Gerald Cartmell stated, that’s the next step.

Vicki Hettinger stated, right, and we put in for that, and that’s what…

Attorney Altman stated, just so we have on the record, that even with this potential solution, okay.

Don Ward asked, all of you understand what we’re voting for?

Dave Scott stated, yep.

Don Ward stated, all in favor’s say aye. Well I guess you got to write it down. You’ll have to put the commitment on the bottom, state subject to the commitment.

Vicki Hettinger stated, wait, I have one more question.

Don Ward stated, okay, go.

Vicki Hettinger asked, this might change things, no, hopefully not, if we do this and say my mother passed away and one of my sons or someone wanted to move in her house.

Gerald Cartmell stated, no, they can move in but they can’t remodel. Can’t tear it down.

Vicki Hettinger stated, okay, well he’s shaking his head no.

Attorney Altman stated, I thought you said that when mother passed away that that…

Don Ward stated, no, I was talking about tearing it down.

Vicki Hettinger stated, no, they said, couldn’t rebuild or sell it or anything.

Don Ward stated, if you start taking it down then, and once it’s down or it reverts back.

Vicki Hettinger stated, right, I understand that.

Don Ward stated, if your son wants to live in there, I don’t, there’s nothing we can do about that. No more than 2 people…

Jim Mann Jr. stated, 1 family per dwelling.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

Don Ward stated, no more than 2 families.

Vicki Hettinger stated, okay. Okay, I understand that.

Mike Smolek stated, and it doesn’t mean you can’t remodel the other house to, just don’t go passed your 50% where you’re going to end up like this again.

Vicki Hettinger stated, okay. I understand that.

Don Ward stated, just put on there subject to commitments. Four stated commitments.

Vicki Hettinger asked, now, how do we do that? Will you guys write something up or…?

Attorney Altman stated, no, no, you have to…

Vicki Hettinger stated, oh, I, well see…

Attorney Altman stated, you or your attorney have to prepare that okay. And ill be glad to give them a basic form that we use, but uh, you have to do that okay.

Vicki Hettinger stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, well Jerry, you can help her, you can, you can do it also if she pays for it for you to do that.

Attorney Altman stated, I sure can, I would, but I, in a way…

Vicki Hettinger stated, is that something I can write up, I mean, just that agreement…

Gerald Cartmell stated, I don’t see why you couldn’t, I agree that there would be blah, blah blah…you know, what we were talking about.

Director Weaver stated, well, there is a form that Mr. Altman’s office has, so you can pick that up…

Gerald Cartmell stated, I mean, save you money, you’re going to pay…

Vicki Hettinger stated, and what’s that form called?

Director Weaver stated, letter of commitment.

Mike Smolek asked, and does that get recorded back to the deed then?

Director Weaver stated, it gets recorded with the rezoning ordinance.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative subject to a commitment that no more than 2 families live in this property and that if uh, that happens that it would revert to an R-2 uh as stated in the motion previously discussed and 0 negative. This will be presented to the Town Board, excuse me City board of Monticello and that will be when Diann?

Director Weaver stated, it will be next Monday.

Attorney Altman stated, for their final action.

Vicki Hettinger stated, next Monday.

Director Weaver stated, the City has to act on this also.

Vicki Hettinger asked, and then what do I need to do?

Director Weaver stated, then you’ll still have your variance hearing.

Vicki Hettinger stated, okay, I don’t have to be here on Monday, you’re saying.

Attorney Altman stated, I’d sure be at the City Council.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, you’d have to go to the , the City Council meeting on Monday.

Vicki Hettinger asked, and where is that?

Jim Mann Jr. stated, right over behind the police station, off of Main Street.

Vicki Hettinger stated, at the senior citizens center.

Director Weaver stated, City Building.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, no, it’s where the City Building is.

Vicki Hettinger stated, oh okay, I know, I know.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, the meeting will be at 6 o’clock.

Vicki Hettinger stated, 6 o’clock Monday, okay.

Don Ward stated, now, theirs a question of a fine for not having a permit, and anyone want to…

Gerald Cartmell stated, we’ll waive the fine and move everything. She’s got enough problems.

Don Ward stated, waive the fine. Everybody in agreement?

Members of the board stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, alright, we’ll waive the fine.

Vicki Hettinger stated, thank you very much, thank you.



#961 Alfred D. Bunch & Carol Trentlage; The property is located on Part Lot 7 in Hayes Addition, in the City of Brookston, Prairie Township, located at 300 S. Ripley Street.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-2 to B-2.

Don Ward stated, go to the staff report, the present use is R-2 One and Two family residence and storage of business equipment, the surrounding land is R-2, One and Two family residential to the North and West, B-2, General Business to the South, and R-3, Multi-Family residence to the East. The property meets the minimum size requirements for the B-2 zoning which requires a minimum lot size of 2,500 square feet and minimum lot width of 50’. They are only rezoning part of this property and it is my understanding that there is an apartment in part of the building and business storage in the remainder of the building. Building was built in 1949/1950 and it’s not been determined whether it’s grandfathered or not or if it was at the time…

Director Weaver stated, I don’t have any way of establishing that, so, I’m…

Don Ward asked, and who is here to represent that?

Alfred Bunch stated, basically what I’ve got is a building that’s…

Don Ward asked, your name.

Alfred Bunch stated, oh, I’m sorry, Alfred Bunch, Brookston Indiana of course. The property that I have at one time was owned by Hallsteads and so they had, had redone equipment, new equipment brought in, reassembled and all that stuff, but anyway, why then a guy by the name Ro Kemple who was a home builder bought the property and also still used as a business. I was under the impression when I purchased the property, which I should have checked into it but I didn’t, that the property was zoned business. But it wasn’t when I came up to find out about trying to tear down my building, part of it, to redo. Anyway that’s why I’m trying to get it rezoned to make that happen.

Don Ward asked, are there any questions from the Board? Are there any opposition or anything to add from the audience?

Attorney Altman stated, we do have 1 letter that was tendered this evening by the applicant. I will read it to the board since it was just given to us. It’s from David Alm and Louie Laskowski, 307 Prairie Street, Brookston, Indiana, dated September 7, 2008. To whom it may concern, we are writing in support of Al Bunch’s request for a variance and rezoning and anything he does is always first class. This project will be an improvement to our neighborhood and community. We urge the approval of his request. Thank you, Sincerely, David Alm and Elaine Louise, Louie, I’m sorry, Laskowski.

Mike Smolek asked, now you said you want to tear down a portion of it and rebuild that?

Alfred Bunch stated, yes, I’ll, I want to drop that section, it’s an older building, all it is is lean too basically most of it is, so I want to abandoned that part of the building. I will be putting the building back, basically, the same place it is right now, but it will be a bigger structure, 70’ wide by 112’ long, which will run North South it will be the 112. But uh, It is going to be for the storage of my equipment and tools and such you know, forms, I do concrete work, so uh, that’s basically all it is is just storage for my equipment.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, that’s at the far West of your, of the property. So that will all be…

Alfred Bunch stated, yes, yes, on the West end of that.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, so that will all be tore down and you’re going to build everything.

Alfred Bunch stated, yeah, and ill put a new building up.

Director Weaver stated, with your information that was at your place tonight there was a copy of a survey that Mr. Bunch has provided to support his variance that shows how he is going to build that addition.

Alfred Bunch stated, yeah, yeah.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think I saw that Diann, but, oh, here it is.

Dennis Sterrett asked, does that meet the setbacks alright?

Director Weaver stated, he’s requested a variance.

Attorney Altman stated, he did see it here.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, is the variance going to be on the South.

Mike Smolek stated, it’s going to be on the West I think.

Alfred Bunch stated, yeah, …

Jim Mann Jr. stated, actually on the South as well.

Alfred Bunch stated, yea, South, there’s an alley running East West on the South of the building there and where that’s located, why, that building is on the South West corner, is where that Southwest corner would be there coming back North with the length of the building , which this will be attached to the existing building that’s there now.

Carol Trentlage stated, and my name is Carol Trentlage, 300 Ripley also, and we had to get, request a variance for the West and South and to attach it to the place, so that was our next meeting was the variance. Cause we have 3 sides that we have to get a variance for.

Don Ward stated, so he’s not rezoning the whole 159.

Dave Scott stated, it would be 2 different.

Gerald Cartmell stated, God dang it.

Alfred Bunch stated, it would be a double. This would be a …

Dave Scott asked, Diann, what’s the setbacks for a B-2?

Director Weaver stated, I think it depends on what’s around it.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah, that should be an R probably.

Dave Scott stated, pardon me.

Director Weaver stated, depends on what’s around it.

Dennis Sterrett, yeah, the side would be an R probably.

Alfred Bunch stated, which would be to the east. The east would be for an R and the West will be for the B.

Alfred Bunch stated, which would really be from Third Street to the alley is really the width of it and going east/west is where the split would be. As far as going from residential to B. It will be R-2 to the West.

Director Weaver stated, so it would be a minimum of...

Alfred Bunch stated, can everybody see this here and I’ll short repot...

Dave Scott stated, yeah, we got one.

Carol Trentlage stated, oh, they got one, good.

Dave Scott stated, so there’s actually 2 lots here.

Gerald Cartmell stated, you’re going to leave part of R-2 and the rest of it to B-2, is that right?

Carol Trentlage stated, why?

Gerald Cartmell stated, you’re going to leave part of it R-2 and the other part B.

Alfred Bunch stated, there you go.

Carol Trentlage, where the new building is hopefully going to.

Don Ward stated, he doesn’t have room for that size building though.

Director Weaver stated, he’s got a variance filed.

Don Ward stated, oh, he’s going to file a variance.

Director Weaver stated, he already has.

Carol Trentlage stated, next week, right.

Alfred Bunch stated, yeah, its next weeks meeting.

Carol Trentlage stated, next Thursday.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I think, if I’m reading this right Diann, it says 10.

Director Weaver stated, well, they filed under the old ordinance, Jim. Brookston hasn’t adopted the ordinance yet, so we’re still under the old ordinance.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, well, so much for that.

Director Weaver stated, welcome to my world.

Gerald Cartmell stated, what is it.

Dave Scott stated, I can’t remember the old one now.

Director Weaver stated, well, it depends on the zoning around it, if they have R-2 to the West then it would be a minimum of 8’ for a side setback and the front would be 35’.

Carol Trentlage asked, and the back was what, 6’, wasn’t it or 4’.

Director Weaver stated, I got to see what kind of zoning you got to the South of it.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, its 4 and 5.

Director Weaver stated, the back is 10’ because they’ve got B-2 to the South.

Don Ward stated, B-2, General Business to the South and R-3 Multi family to the East.

Director Weaver stated, its 25’ from the front. 8 to the West side and 10 to the rear.

Don Ward stated, so they are going to have to go and have a variance or he can’t do it.

Director Weaver stated, and he’s already done that.

Don Ward stated, everybody in clue.

Gerald Cartmell asked, how tall is your building going to be, just like is there?

Alfred Bunch stated, yeah, yeah, just going to replace that one section there.

Carol Trentlage stated, yes. Yeah, it’s not going to be any taller, no.

Alfred Bunch stated, 4’ for the side walls is what its going to be, so its basically the same as what’s there, building size and height really. Well, it will be maybe a foot higher, maybe about it.

Carol Trentlage stated, we loose some of that gravel which is good.

Dennis Sterrett stated, the plan says 25.

Alfred Bunch asked, says what now?

Dennis Sterrett stated, 25’. I guess that’s what ht stands for.

Gerald Cartmell stated, right there in the middle, proposed building and then underneath it says HT = 25.

Carol Trentlage, ohhh, no, it’s not going to be 25’.

Alfred Bunch stated, well, what it is, I don’t, what it is, if you look at the very top of it its 70’ is what I’m setting it for, proposed building width is 70’, yeah but the height is not 25.

Carol Trentlage asked, why is that on there?

Alfred Bunch stated, no, I don’t know why that is on there. That’s my, the guy that did the surveying added that on there.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you’re going to have a flat type roof?

Alfred Bunch stated, no, no, it will be like a 3/12 pitch. You got the print there? Go to the building print of that pole barn. Yeah, it’s a 3/12 pitch, is what I got.

Mike Smolek stated, so 14’6’’ would be 20 feet tall.

Alfred Bunch stated, basically I don’t know what it is, it’s going to be 70’ on the width.

Carol Trentlage stated, 14’ sidewalls.

Alfred Bunch stated, whatever it is to…

Gerald Cartmell stated, not in town though.

Director Weaver stated, nothing comes to mind.

Carol Trentlage stated, height would be 20’, you figured 14’.

Alfred Bunch stated, well I figured by the time you got done, probably about the time you got done, yeah to the peak, yeah would be 20’.

Carol Trentlage stated, I didn’t think it was any higher than what we have.

Dave Scott asked, 3 ½ x 3, what is that. 9 on top of whatever the side walls is.

Alfred Bunch stated, side walls are 14.

Dave Scott stated, so it’s going to be over 25’.

Alfred Bunch stated, yeah, okay.

Don Ward stated, 2 and 12 would be the 1 in 6 and 35 divided by 6 would be 6. So it would be 14 plus 6.

Dave Scott stated, he makes me sick.

Gerald Cartmell stated, I know. Where’d ya come up with that one?

Alfred Bunch stated, so it would be 21.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, that’s it exactly. No Computer, no adding machine.

Don Ward stated, okay, we ready to vote?

Mike Smolek stated, yep.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the Town Board of Brookston, Indiana with a positive recommendation, do you have any idea? We don’t really know when the Town Board number 1 will get this, Diann sends it out tomorrow, certifies it, we never know for sure when the mail will get it to them, number 2 when they will have their meeting on that so you ought to check with the Clerk Treasurer to make sure you know when they will receive it and they have the final say.

Alfred Bunch stated, alright.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, thank you.

Alfred Bunch stated, thank you.

Carol Trentlage stated, thank you.


#962 Sandhill Pigs, LLC; The property is located on PT SW NE, 33-28-2, containing 10 Acres, in Cass Township, located North of Idaville at 11683 E. 550 N.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1to A-2.

Mike Smolek stated, I need to recluse myself.

Don Ward stated, that’s yours right.

Mike Smolek stated, yeah, no it’s his. But he’s my brother so I got to step down.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, for the record, we are now down to 6 votes on this matter.

Don Ward stated, the property is over 4 ½ miles North of Idaville and over 4 miles South of Headlee. I think it has to be a mile away from any town, right.

Director Weaver stated, mmm hmmm.

Don Ward stated, and what do you have to be a quarter of a mile away from any homes…

Attorney Altman stated, this is with the new ordinance.

Don Ward stated, looked to me like you were. Over a quarter mile from anywhere.

Gerald Cartmell stated, there aint nobody anywhere.

Director Weaver stated, this is your first rezoning under the new ordinance so I did attach a copy of the requirements for the A-2 district attached to your staff report. I think you also have some additional information at your place this evening that was brought in to us, the site plan, I don’t remember what else you brought in Mike.

Mike Smolek stated, I think that’s all you need was a site plan, I brought the map in that had the measurements of the setback from the nearest houses.

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s on that black sheet of paper, Diann, that’s in the record.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, okay. I just wanted to make sure that I have it in the file.

Gerald Cartmell stated, just for the record, we have everything in the world we need, right, all these permits and…

Mike Smolek stated, all we need is state,…

Tony Smolek stated, Tony Smolek, Co-Owner of the Sandhill Pigs. 5522 N. 1100 E., Idaville. Yeah, we got basically everything done except drainage board. What all we got left to do?

Mike Smolek stated, yeah.

Tony Smolek stated, we’ve been working on this for about a year, we kind of got caught in the middle between when then state paperwork came back and when the A-2 went into effect, so.

Don Ward asked, is there anyone in the audience.

Members of the board stated, just Charlie.

Don Ward stated, that has anything to say.

Charlie Mellon stated, I’m all for it.

Don Ward stated, state your case or forever hold your piece.

Attorney Altman asked, Diann, this is exactly what the A-2 zoning is for in the new ordinance right?

Director Weaver stated, the A-2 zoning in the new ordinance is for agriculture industries, so yes, it is. It was set up for confinements, yes.

Don Ward asked, are we ready to vote? Let’s vote.

The results of the vote were as follows: 6 affirmative 0 negative 1 abstention. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.

Attorney Altman stated, and that will be heard next Monday, right Diann.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, at 8:30.

Director Weaver stated, 8:30.

Attorney Altman stated, in the morning, right here. They have the final say.


Don Ward stated, okay, anybody that wants to talk to the board.

Gerald Cartmell stated, oh, Charlie.

Charles Mellon stated, I want to ask a question.

Don Ward stated, Charlie, you need to move up closer.

Charles Mellon stated, it don’t have to be recorded.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, then you wait a little bit and we’ll be off.

Charles Mellon asked, the new ordinance. When did it go into effect? The fourth?

Director Weaver stated, well, it did in the County. It went into effect the 4th of August.

Charles Mellon stated, okay, at our meeting the other night, the 4th wasn’t in effect.

Director Weaver stated, at what meeting.

Charles Mellon stated, at the BZA.

Gerald Cartmell stated, that stuff was filed before though.

Director Weaver stated, that stuff was filed before the old or the new ordinance went into effect. It goes by there filing date.

Charles Mellon stated, okay, if somebody applies for a permit before the new ordinance went in, do you go by the old ordinance. Well a fellow jumped me over the weekend that he filed before the new one came in and instead of 60’ from a hard road or state highway or federal highway it’s 80’ and if he filed the thing before the thing come in you’re still going to have to hold it as 60’ didn’t you.

Director Weaver stated, state highway didn’t have a 60’ setback.

Charles Mellon stated, oh yes it did.

Director Weaver stated, not under the old ordinance. In A-1…

Charles Mellon stated, I remember in Buffalo, 3 or 4 years ago…

Director Weaver stated, it was 80’ Charlie. In an A-1 zoning it was 80’ off the state highway.

Charles Mellon stated, that lady, Mrs. Heights up there in that little old house she’s got close to the street…

Director Weaver stated, that was in town.

Charles Mellon stated, in Buffalo. We told her 60’ and she was to close then. And I’m positive anybody here that was on that board then, well, yeah, there is too, 2 or 3. I think that was on the Area Plan board and I looked in the old thing, the old booklet and I could never see it in black and white where it was 80 feet.

Director Weaver stated, it was.

Charles Mellon stated, the new one is, I just wondered how much discussion everybody has on that. Why was 20’ added on?

Director Weaver stated, it wasn’t. Not on a state highway it wasn’t changed Charlie. I mean, it was 80’. I don’t even know what it is in the new one.

Charles Mellon stated, its 80’ in the new one. I looked it up, last night.

Director Weaver stated, actually an A-1 zoning in the new one is 100 feet and its 75 from a county highway. So it went up in the new ordinance.

Charles Mellon stated, well you know people want to buy a piece of ground and that’s 100 feet from the road property line, that’s a lot of acreage if somebody wants to put up a 500’ length building. That runs into money.

Mike Smolek asked, who upped it? Did it upped without us checking it.

Director Weaver stated, we had a meeting at one time and went over all the setbacks.

Mike Smolek stated, yeah, but I don’t remember it being 100’. That’s what I’m saying. That might be something that we need to check into. Because there were some corrections that went thru there that didn’t get redone the way they should’ve been.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, was that a committee?

Director Weaver stated, I think that was back when we had the original group together still.

Greg Bossaer stated, that was probably back when we had the original consultant.

Director Weaver stated, the steering committee. Well, yeah, it may have been, it may have been, probably was actually. Yeah, yeah, we didn’t go back and readdress it once Brooke took over.

Charles Mellon stated, I might ask another question. How many adjoining little towns around has signed that?

Director Weaver stated, all of them except for Brookston, Burnettsville, and Reynolds.

Charles Mellon stated, you mean, Wolcott has.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Charles Mellon stated, that surprises me.

Director Weaver stated, I believe so, I think, I think there’s only the 3. Well, I’ve got it here Charlie. Um, City of Monticello adopted it on the 18th of August, Town of Chalmers on the 19th, Town of Monon on the 19th, and Wolcott on September 2. So yeah, just Brookston, Burnettsville, and Reynolds are all that’s left.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, I don’t know why were discussing this.

Gerald Cartmell asked, are we adjourned?

Director Weaver stated, no. I have some things we need to talk about. Um, I don’t know if you guys remember that John Powers was here at the last meeting and talking to, was it, now I’m thinking it wasn’t this board. Denny was it this board?

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah. He came to this board.

Director Weaver stated, okay.

Mike Smolek stated, if it was the last 2 months I had no idea.

Dennis Sterrett stated, it was in the minutes.

Director Weaver stated, last meeting…

Gerald Cartmell stated, oh.

Director Weaver stated, John Powers came and talked to you guys about a couple garages.

Gerald Cartmell stated, okay, yeah, the radical.

Director Weaver stated, I have, he has sent to Jerry, a small packet, I made copies of that.

Mike Smolek asked, was that the notice we got in the mail?

Dave Scott stated, yes.

Attorney Altman stated, I got it actually, yeah, but we ...

Mike Smolek stated, cause I got something about 1 garage is going to stick out further than another. Is that what you’re talking about?

Director Weaver stated, and they’re only going to be about 6’ off the …

Dennis Sterrett stated, we advised him to file a complaint if I remember.

Director Weaver stated, and he did. Actually we got 2 or 3, but she did provide us a survey that she was meeting the required 5’ from the overhang. So I signed off and the permit has been allowed to go on and then Jerry you received this Friday, is that right.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah. And the truth is, I’m not sure exactly what it is I got Friday.

Mike Smolek asked, but is that an alley or is that a road?

Director Weaver stated, it’s West Shafer Drive.

Gerald Cartmell stated, West Shafer Drive.

Dave Scott stated, West Shafer Drive.

Mike Smolek stated, well that would file because that would be a front too wouldn’t it? Or not in the old ordinance.

Director Weaver stated, no. It’s an L-1 zoning that was the rear.

Dave Scott asked, well wait, even if it’s our setback, what about the safety factor?

Mike Smolek stated, at 6’ you can’t see out your car if it’s a big one.

Dave Scott stated, you can’t pull in the garage, without being in the street.

Director Weaver stated, and I understand that Dave. I guess that’s why I’m bringing this up. Do you guys want me to pursue this differently? I don’t want to do it without.

Dave Scott asked, how do you pursue it if it’s in the ordinance?

Director Weaver stated, exactly, they’re meeting the setbacks that…

Don Ward asked, what can we do?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know.

Mike Smolek stated, I can’t see how they’re meeting the setbacks though.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s what I couldn’t figure out, whether we…

Dave Scott asked, well, would we get sued if we disallowed it?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, yes.

Dave Scott stated, because it’s meeting the setbacks.

Mike Smolek stated, how are we meeting the setbacks though.

Director Weaver stated, because in the old ordinance. In a L-1 zoning a detached garage could be as close as 5’ from the rear and 5’ from the sides.

Mike Smolek stated, yeah, but the doors on the facing side, that’s not the rear of it.

Director Weaver stated, it’s the rear of the property. 5’ from the rear of the property. That’s why we changed, we changed that.

Mike Smolek asked, how is that the rear of the property if West Shafer Drive is the front side of that.

Director Weaver stated, West Shafer Drive is not the front. The lake is the front.

Mike Smolek stated, oh.

Don Ward stated, on a L-1.

Director Weaver stated, on L-1’s there reversed. The lake is the front, the roadside is the rear.

Mike Smolek stated, well somebody really thought that out.

Director Weaver stated, we’ve corrected this problem in the new ordinance because we’ve changed this to 20’, so we’ve fixed it now, but this was done under the new ordinance.

Greg Bossaer stated, somehow we have to pursue something. From a safety standpoint.

Mike Smolek stated, safety standpoint, yeah.

Gerald Cartmell stated, can’t we specify that in our, to keep the county from being liable.

Mike Smolek stated, they literally can not pull off that road without being on part of the road.

Director Weaver stated, I understand, that’s why I’m bringing it up.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, is that going to fly Jerry?

Director Weaver asked, what do you want me to do?

Gerald Cartmell stated, can you view of safety and liability for the county, we can’t let this happen.

Dave Scott stated, reject it and we’ll take our chances I guess.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s what you can do. Is reject it and take your chances.

Director Weaver stated, well, I’ve already signed off. Do I revoke the permit? It was back under the old ordinance, I don’t actually sign off, I mean, I approve the site plan but they’re issued thru the building department.

Attorney Altman asked, did you actually send, deliver it already?

Director Weaver stated, she already had it in her hands before it was ever brought up it was an issue.

Dave Scott stated, does it say anything even on the major thoroughfare.

Director Weaver stated, it was issued. It was issued.

Dave Scott stated, major thoroughfare, there’s still a 5’ setback. Doesn’t make any sense.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, has this woman done anything on this garage.

Gerald Cartmell stated, yeah.

Director Weaver stated, she hasn’t as of last week, I don’t know if she has now.

Mike Smolek asked, what about utility? Does it meet the utility setback?

Gerald Cartmell stated, yeah, if there’s a utility easement right through there.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t deal with that.

Dennis Sterrett stated, there’s no setbacks for utility easements.

Director Weaver stated, the survey doesn’t show any utility easements.

Mike Smolek stated, well like on a main road were talking about, we have to have at least 10 feet for the utilities to go thru there.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, where’s the regional sewer district.

Don Ward stated, there would have to be a utility easement and there probably is one. You got to move back because of the utilities, because if there’s an easement, you got to make the stand on it, well you don’t have any…

Mike Smolek stated, right, but they couldn’t get that easement because their only 6’ from the road and if you require 10.

Attorney Altman stated, I hear what you’re saying, I just, ordinance…

Don Ward stated, I agree with you but…

Mike Smolek stated, well, there’s got to be some angle we can pursue here.

Gerald Cartmell stated, I agree.

Don Ward stated, by the right…

Director Weaver stated, they weren’t even able to establish the road right-of-way.

Mike Smolek stated, that’s, yeah, …

Director Weaver stated, we had to go, I mean, Don informed us that there was a ruling by a judge that if you cant establish the right-of-way you go by the edge of pavement. So we had to go by edge of pavement.

Don Ward stated, right, and that’s … Which, if they can’t, if you can’t go thru the books and prove the right-of-way, edge of pavement sits so she only has to be 5’ off the edge of the pavement.

Gerald Cartmell stated, that’s the horse and carriage though.

Don Ward stated, so you really got a bad situation now.

Director Weaver stated, and her surveyor spent time with Denny trying to determine that right-of-way, correct Denny.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah. I had no record of it.

Don Ward stated, well you’d have to go, you’d probably have to go thru all the Commissioners books from way back to prove that.

Attorney Altman stated, and you’d be lucky if you found it.

Mike Smolek stated, what’s the property next to it.

Attorney Altman stated, lucky if it happened.

Don Ward stated, it may never have happened.

Director Weaver stated, Homes, its all homes.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, if somebody wants to build 10 ½ feet.

Attorney Altman stated, I wouldn’t have any trouble about sending her a letter telling her that this is what …(inaudible, cell phone ringing) However, it’s pretty, it isn’t very …

Mike Smolek stated, it’s 24 x 24, why don’t we just say 24 x 16, bring the door in off the side.

Director Weaver stated, they’ve changed the size of it. She did downsize the size.

Mike Smolek stated, but what I’m saying is isn’t there enough room to put a driveway along the side, shorten the garage by 8 feet, you got 17 foot off the side and make them go into the side of it.

Director Weaver stated, well, her surveyor told me that he because she owns 2 properties side by side, he tried to get her to make a common drive and do that and she wouldn’t have any part of it.

Gerald Cartmell stated, well maybe we need to… because she wants to sell that other one.

Director Weaver stated, well, that, I’ve heard that too Gerald.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, get a shared driveway agreement.

Mike Smolek stated, all she had to do is get a shared driveway agreement or get an easement on both properties; she wouldn’t have to split the lots.

Gerald Cartmell stated, Jerry, maybe you need to send her a letter saying we will approve this but this is how it’s going to be.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t have any trouble doing that, I’ve been ignored before. I’ve written letters that were worthless before.

Greg Bossaer stated, if somebody gets hurt there though, who’s going to get sued.

Gerald Cartmell stated, county.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, county is going to be sued.

Dave Scott stated, I’m sure we will be named.

Attorney Altman stated, I’m sure we will be named.

Don Ward stated, well, what about going to the county highway and not issuing a permit to get off the right-of-way. To enter the right-of-way at that point.

Director Weaver stated, don’t they probably already have it?

Don Ward stated, huh.

Mike Smolek stated, okay, out there on, out there on 24, when they put up the funeral home, they made them move that driveway, how’d that come about.

Don Ward stated, well the state highway has that, they have rules.

Director Weaver stated, yeah, that’s state.

Dave Scott stated, they can tell you where to put it.

Don Ward stated, they can deny you an entrance if they want to.

Mike Smolek asked, and we can’t?

Don Ward stated, I don’t know whether we can or not.

Attorney Altman stated, it doesn’t go where the county highway has any rules at all?

Don Ward stated, I don’t think they’ve ever done it. Now they have probably recommended, you know, put it here or there, in other words, down in the valley where…

Attorney Altman stated, I think that would be a good idea.

Mike Smolek stated, because this is the other thing. If the garage door doesn’t ever work, they can’t park anywhere.

Don Ward stated, they obviously can’t enter…

Mike Smolek stated, because that’s not a full parking spot, can we go down that road?

Director Weaver stated, well, a 9 by 18 parking space, I think they can put it in beside it. I think they can put 1 beside it.

Mike Smolek stated, beside it but they can’t build in front of it.

Don Ward asked, do we have a drawing of the actual location of the pavement?

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah, its right here.

Don Ward asked, you got it?

Director Weaver stated, I think its one you got, I think it’s the one you had right there.

Dennis Sterrett stated, it’s the one that’s dimensioned.

Don Ward stated, oh yeah. In the white lines.

Dennis Sterrett stated, its 6.9 off the edge.

Director Weaver stated, I have a big one. Do you want to see the big one?

Mike Smolek asked, so she owns the property here then too?

Member of the board stated, yep.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, no, she doesn’t. She owns these 2.

Don Ward stated, I thought that was the right-of-way line because, but they’re using the pavement right?

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, John and Margeret Hanik own the one to the, whatever, South I suppose.

Dave Scott asked, so who’s complaining about it then?

Gerald Cartmell stated, everybody in the neighborhood.

Director Weaver stated, yeah. I’ve got 3 complaints.

Greg Bossaer stated, there was 2 gentlemen here…

Gerald Cartmell stated, yeah, they were pretty grouchy.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I think Hanik was here and powers.

Gerald Cartmell stated, have ya, you’ve been out there too.

Dave Scott stated, let’s just revoke the permit and go from there and let them figure it out.

Don Ward stated, maybe we can, maybe we could talk to Steve and see if he would tell her you’re not going to be allowed to enter the road there.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I don’t think he has any jurisdiction.

Don Ward stated, I don’t think he does either.

Gerald Cartmell stated, why don’t we just say we’re going to…

Dennis Sterrett stated, he’s just like, you know, he’s been to them seminars where the judge says, the edge of pavement is the right-of-way, you know.

Gerald Cartmell stated, why don’t we just deny the permit.

Don Ward stated, unless where we can find where...

Gerald Cartmell stated, we come up with something else.

Don Ward stated, that judge sure did screw up things.

Attorney Altman stated, I mean, I can do that, write a letter, or Diann can issue that and see if, see if it’s, you know, gets challenged or not. And see if we can’t get a little bit of comfort…

Gerald Cartmell stated, negotiate then maybe we can negotiate down where we…

Attorney Altman stated, and I will, I mean, we can do that, but we both should tell you that it’s not the strongest position.

Greg Bossaer stated, you’d have to hack that garage in half to be in a safe position.

Gerald Cartmell stated, put it up against the house.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess, yeah, I agree, however that doesn’t give so I guess if we hear that’s what, yeah, I understand, but it often times is that way guys. You know that, you’ve been there. Basically give Diann direction and you know, it’s an informal one because nothings new in the stuff here but I guess that’s what she’s trying to get is so, so, basically marching orders or at least direction.

Greg Bossaer asked, could Diann also check with Steve.

Director Weaver stated, Steve is the contact…

Greg Bossaer stated, well I mean, if there is something he can.

Director Weaver stated, I’ve talked to Steve Burton, I don’t know, I don’t know, really know that there’s anything Steve can do either.

Mike Smolek stated, so their property line actually goes across the road then.

Director Weaver stated, I’ve talked to Steve Brooke and I’ve talked to Steve Burton. I’ve talked to both of them.

Dennis Sterrett stated, it’s just like most properties; it goes to the center of the road, or not to center but close to.

Mike Smolek stated, this one is 3’ on 1 end and 26 on the other.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, does this need to be put in the form of a motion Jerry?

Attorney Altman stated, I would think so yes.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, to give Diann direction.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Director Weaver stated, I mean I’m not…

Attorney Altman stated, the direction I hear you saying is, is, to revoke the permit and move it back to a safe location.

Don Ward stated, well in the first place, she has no place to move it back.

Attorney Altman stated, well, that, that may be, but then that may limit her. I hear what you’re saying Don, that she may not have that, but that still doesn’t mean that I hear the board saying they want to grant.

Dave Scott stated, let’s just say that we want the garage entrance to the, coming in from the South.

Gerald Cartmell stated, it would be East and West wouldn’t it? Is that what you’re talking about.

Dave Scott stated, if you pulled in the garage a different direction.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah, but the other garage is in the way.

Don Ward stated, her garage isn’t even safe, period, whether they went in and out of it or not.

Jim Mann Jr. asked, she’s proposing 2 garages right.

Gerald Cartmell stated, neither garage is built yet.

Dave Scott stated, you still can’t see it.

Gerald Cartmell stated, so slide that sucker over. See what I mean.

Dennis Sterrett stated, oh, I see what you mean. You’d have to come in on that…

Don Ward stated, center 40’ right of way, if she wants to challenge it, we could go to court against the judge then.

Dave Scott stated, I make a motion we revoke the permit. Make them come in and at least that will give us some time to think about it.

Don Ward stated, okay, we’ve got a motion to revoke the permit.

Gerald Cartmell stated, I’ll second that.

Don Ward stated, got a second on that. All in favor say aye.

Members of the board stated, aye.

Don Ward stated, opposed, same sign. Carried, motion carried.

Attorney Altman stated, Don if you get something together or I’ll get something together whichever way you want to…

Several members speaking at once.

Dave Scott stated, but even with a shared drive, there, there needs to be so many feet off the road.

Mike Smolek stated, but you would be then because you would be entering from the side of the garage.

Dave Scott stated, still when you pull up there your going to have to be several, you’re going to have to be 10 foot back to pull up there to be able to see both directions…

Mike Smolek stated, but that’s what were saying, and maybe not even make that as big as 24 or whatever, but push that one back, square it with the property, although they may not want to square it, but, push this one back and then they can come in there and they got room to turn and stuff.

Director Weaver stated, you want to explain the letter that you gave to me today about Spears. I’ve given them a copy of it.

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing I can explain is the Commissioners indicated that the fifth wheel must come off and they agreed to that. Mr. Blair indicated that nothing would go back there. That wasn’t in the commitment but that was in the minutes that they disclosed and the Commissioners approved it, okay.

Director Weaver stated, well, and…

Don Ward stated, that 5th wheel wasn’t really in the condominium anyway.

Attorney Altman stated, no, I understand but…

Director Weaver stated, no, it wasn’t.

Attorney Altman stated, it would come off.

Don Ward stated, we looked that up.

Jim Mann Jr. stated, a written apology.

Don Ward stated, that they have to get rid of it, but if you do it your way you can make sure they cant bring it back, what we’ve did, what we would’ve done is just said they have to take it out, were going to turn around and put it right back again. But it wasn’t in the, it wasn’t in the condo, it wasn’t part of the condo.

Gerald Cartmell stated, I think they take it out it will fall apart anyway, if they take it out its going to fall apart anyhow.

Attorney Altman stated, as far as I’m concerned, all that is is he just talking more about the settlement. Uh, Blair sent me a letter today saying he wanted to have this, all, he wants to reargue the settlement and uh I just gave Diann a copy of it and that’s all there is to it. I’m going to send him a letter saying that basically were committed to fulfilling the settlement and that we will do so at proper time.

Gerald Cartmell stated, that’s all we have to do, they agreed to that, how can he change his horses middle stream?

Attorney Altman stated, that’s right. And that’s the way I’m looking at it.

Don Ward stated, in the first place, I don’t think the guy had $35,000 damages or anything close to it.

Gerald Cartmell stated, if he had $35,000 he’d be clear out of here.

Don Ward stated, yeah, that’s just a scare tactic.

Gerald Cartmell stated, that’d be like hitting the lottery.

Attorney Altman stated, so that’s what I’m going to do about that but I wanted to keep Diann informed of what Blair’s paper mills going there and of course she passed it on to you guys, which is totally appropriate. But that’s what I’m going to do.

Gerald Cartmell stated, Blair’s getting $35,000. Every time he sends out a letter, man, he’s got 300 bucks. He’s done very well for himself.

Attorney Altman stated, but anyway, just wanted to let you know what’s going on. Anything else Diann.

Director Weaver stated, the new ordinance we’ve found some errors. We’re going to have to do some amendments. I don’t know how you guys want me to do it. Do you want me to do it as I find them? Do you want me to wait and do several at one time?

Mike Smolek asked, how do we amend it? We vote on it, then the Commissioners vote and then…

Director Weaver stated, and then it gets forwarded onto each town again. And the thing is the towns not all of the towns have even adopted it at this point.

Gerald Cartmell stated, what happens if somebody comes in your office though and there wanting to do that and its wrong, then what.

Director Weaver stated, I think the biggest one right now is, mistake, is the notification, states that we should be notifying by certified mail, which is not how it was supposed to state. We haven’t done certified mail since we adopted this ordinance.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s why we told her to change it.

Director Weaver stated, I know.

Greg Bossaer stated, why don’t you bring that in next time.

Director Weaver stated, go ahead and amend that…

Greg Bossaer stated, and we’ll do that, and then maybe the others, if their not, maybe we can do those first of the year.

Mike Smolek stated, why don’t we just vote on it now and then you can get it to the county.

Director Weaver stated, I cant, I have to advertise it.

Mike Smolek stated, it has to be publicized.

Director Weaver stated, yeah, I have to advertise and I didn’t have time Mike when you realized it to have it done for this meeting or I would have.

Dave Scott stated, I assume as time goes by you’re going to find all kinds of flaws in that thing.

Director Weaver stated, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, I think I agree there, I think I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t, I would, if we got them, advertise them, and they’ll get done that way and you wont get bit in the but like your concerned about.

Director Weaver stated, okay, that’s fine. Um, mobile homes. We’re running into some problems already there because we’ve gotten very restrictive where they can go. I have a rezoning filed for next month. Not real sure what you guys are going to do with it or if you’re going to do it. They’re wanting to put, they’ve already bought a piece of property wanting to put a mobile home on it and the only thing they can do is a mobile home zoning, an A-1, with a special exception or an R-R, with a special exception, and a A-2 as an accessory building. They don’t have that much acreage. They have filed to rezone to rezone to an R-4, I don’t know that it’s appropriate, I don’t know what else to tell these people, so we need to really think about mobile homes and where we’re going with that.

Dave Scott stated, tell them to put it in a mobile home park.

Director Weaver stated, well the bad thing in this situation, they had already purchased the property and I believe they already purchased the mobile home, so that’s the situation. Not that they are all going to be that.

Mike Smolek asked, is it a mobile home or is it a double wide?

Director Weaver stated, no it is a single wide. Um, also, I have been asked by a couple people, through modular homes, I don’t see anything addressing those in the ordinance so I’m assuming that were treating those as a stick built home.

Mike Smolek asked, are you talking about the ones that’s built and then shipped as a complete component.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Mike Smolek stated, yeah, we talked about it. Those were supposed to be as stick built.

Director Weaver stated, okay, that was what I thought, but I wanted to run it by you.

Mike Smolek stated, and they would have a HUD sticker verses a BMV sticker.

Director Weaver stated, okay, okay. Good. Um, the only other thing is I emailed you guys some information on nitty gritty work shops. Is anyone interested in going to those? If so, if you let me know as soon as possible I can get the claim in and you wont have to pay out of pocket …

Mike Smolek asked, is Farm Bureau putting that on? Who’s putting that on?

Greg Bossaer stated, Purdue is.

Director Weaver asked, is that who it is?

Greg Bossaer stated, yeah.

Mike Smolek asked, did Farm Bureau already put one on?

Greg Bossaer stated, they may have.

Gerald Cartmell stated, they’re going to.

Mike Smolek stated, I think there was one back in May or something.

Director Weaver stated, one is October 9 and one is November 17th.

Mike Smolek stated, Greg Swiffer mailed it to me, it was down in Indianapolis.

Director Weaver stated, one’s in Columbia City and ones in Columbus, IN.

Greg Bossaer stated, I think those are different though.

Mike Smolek stated, it was for zoning.

Greg Bossaer stated, yeah, but it was, it’s not called nitty gritty.

Mike Smolek stated, yeah it was called…

Jim Mann Jr. stated, so the 9th is the first one.

Director Weaver stated, yeah. The 9th is the first one. October 9th.

Mike Smolek stated, I might even still have it on my email, I’ll have to look.

Director Weaver stated, and I don’t need to know tonight, but I just wanted to say something tonight. That’s all I have, I’m done.

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing I can say is generally speaking, I just feel like from a policy point of view, when we’re dealing with a new ordinance, or whatever we’re dealing with, we got to be really careful, I mean, the Commissioners and everybody else…to much blood, sweat, and tears, and treasure to do a lot of changes that are, shall we say, heart wrenching but maybe not exactly what you want to do from a zoning point of view and I just say that you’ve got a, you got a clean plate right now, or will have with this ordinance, either way and the only thing you can do is mess it up if you make, you know, they always say, tough cases make bad law and that’s what you sometimes have. You get sympathetic to the people and unfortunately it just makes bad zoning law. So think about…

Mike Smolek asked, where in this book do you find that R-1, A-1, the definitions of that stuff?

Director Weaver stated, um, it’s towards the front.

Gerald Cartmell stated, yeah, its right here. The beginning here.

Mike Smolek stated, somebody needs to put this in my terms. Because I don’t understand this.

Gerald Cartmell stated, it doesn’t say pay me to understand that.

Director Weaver stated, it’s in chapter 2. It explains what the zonings… that’s what I’m understand you’re asking.

Dave Scott stated, my new zoning book in your hands.

Mike Smolek stated, so it’s about 4 pages in then, to find the actual definitions then.

Don Ward asked, do we have a motion to adjourn then?

To answer your, I guess in my opinion to answer your question, as they come about make a list of them and every month we need to, address those. Is HNTB going to come back with the proper or are we going to do that?


Gerald Cartmell made a motion to adjourn.

Dennis Sterrett seconded the motion.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission




























Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________