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The White County Area Plan Commission met Tuesday, October 14, 2008, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Mike Smolek, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, Gerald Cartmell, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, Greg Bossaer, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Dick Taylor, Nona Crew, Bob Lotzgesell, Eileen Krainik, Katie Billue, Mary Pauline Mooney-Sparger, Renea Horn, Marg Petty, Richard and Diana Nicholas, Carol Kerns, William Haas, Woodrow Hamm, Rod Weaver, Cathy C. Russell, ???, and Ben Woodhouse (Deputy).

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Don Ward made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the September 8, 2008 meeting. Motion was seconded by Dave Rosenbarger and carried unanimously.


#963 Gerald R. Jr. & Carol L. Kerns; The property is located on Lot 1 in Ronald D. Coonrod Subdivision, in Liberty Township, located East of Buffalo and on the West side of Washburn Drive..

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-2 to R-4.

President Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing that request? You want to stand up and say your name.

Carol Kerns stated, hi my names Carol Kerns, um I bought this property in February off of Ron and I come up here to find out if I could and all the stuff to do to get the trailer moved in, I didn’t know they were changing the law and the law that I’m informed on laws that anything on wheels being brought in or a manufactured home or a mobile home I would have to come in here and have it rezoned, that is what I’m trying to do is just put one trailer on the property to live with my kids. I’m not trying to build a trailer park or anything like that just a permanent one home.

President Stimmel asked, Commissioners have any questions for her right now?

Don Ward stated, well you realize that number one many of your neighbors have signed a petition, I guess. Do you know that?

Carol Kerns stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, and also that it’s so wide or so long that when you set it in the way it has to be set you only have a 10’ setback on the side so even if we approved it, it would still have to go through the Board of Zoning Appeals to get that waved uh, I’ve heard that possibly your neighbors wouldn’t mind if there were only 1 trailer, I don’t know whether that’s true or not.

Carol Kerns stated, there is only one.

Don Ward stated, if that would be the case I think the only way we can approve it would be for you to sign a commitment that there would never be more than one trailer on it.

Carol Kerns stated, which is fine.

Don Ward stated, but that’s because of all of your neighbors.

Carol Kerns stated, and I have some other neighbors that don’t mind that signed the paper but um, there has always only been one trailer sitting there and I don’t own a bunch of trailers, I can’t afford to go buy a bunch of trailers. I was under the impression with the new law that it just had to be worded this way in order to put a trailer there and I had no intentions of putting more then one trailer. I’m under the impression from some of the neighbors that they’re afraid if I am allowed to do this some of the other adjoining that are around me will be able to do that but as you said there’s other setbacks and other things that have to be done like you can’t have more then one dwelling on one property if it doesn’t meet the codes.

President Anderson asked, okay do we have anybody in the audience that has any questions about this request at all? You want to come forward, you have to state your name, you can go ahead and sit down now. Uh, let her go first then…

Richard Nicholas stated, uh, Richard Nicholas, I happen to live right across the street from the property, I’m opposed to it as a lot of my neighbors here. We have some information here we’d like to present, you have some that we have all ready given you but it’s not, it’s not just a matter of whether she’s going to put one or whatever the thing might be. There again what we’re afraid of is that if this passes R-4, then somebody else could come in conceivably down the road or around the corner and they could do the same thing, you know it’s like once you take the first step then all the dominos just fall down the line. Another thing would be once it’s zoned R-4, my understanding it stays R-4 so what would happen if something were to happen if she were to lose the property or sell it or whatever, it’s already zoned 4 somebody else could come in and say hey we could slap a couple of mobile homes in here no problem, even though her intentions is not to do that it could happen in the future. This is what we don’t want, this is what we’re, we’re fighting against, not her, the R-4 zoning. That’s what it really boils down to. Now you have some literature, I have some other stuff here that I would really like to show you if you would be interested. Is it okay if I bring some of this up?

President Anderson stated, your going to have to put it into the record though, it’ll have to be permanent record.

Richard Nicholas stated, that’s fine, you can keep it.

President Anderson stated, okay you go ahead.

Richard Nicholas stated, absolutely no problem what so ever. I’ll like to start with you because you look like you know what you’re talking about. This is the property in question, it’s a 100’ wide x 304’ long.

President Anderson stated, do you want to present it to all of us though.

Richard Nicholas stated, oh yea, yea.

President Anderson stated, it doesn’t matter whether he knows what…

Richard Nicholas stated, oh I’m sorry.

President Anderson stated, it looks like he knows what he’s doing but the rest of us have to know it too.

Richard Nicholas stated, sure, okay, all right. There again this is the property in question and there’s a lot of problems with this property as far as one home is concerned, number 1 it’s only 30,400 square feet which according to the zoning regulations that I’m aware of it’s supposed to be 65,340 square feet so we’re talking not even half.

President Anderson asked, you mean for the R-4?

Richard Nicholas stated, for an R-4.

President Anderson stated, right.

Richard Nicholas stated, right, here’s some more for you sir, and these are just designations that your aware of and he’s correct about the length of it as far as the property needs to be, the home would have to be on a road length wise and it could only leave 10’. Uh, we have another problem as well, the White County Health Department for that property only has a record of, for a permit applied going back to 1968 and here again I wish you would see that because with this permit from 1968, which is 40 something years ago, this is the only one they have on file. There’s an affidavit right there, it’s only good for 1 bedroom home no matter what it is. It would have to be proven that it’s acceptable to a current ???, there is no record of that what so ever there’s petitions that were signed by these people and…

President Anderson stated, we’ve already got that.

Richard Nicholas asked, you have that right?

President Anderson stated, it’s already in there.

Richard Nicholas stated, okay, all right. Well these are things that you should all ready know this, but that’s basically…

President Anderson stated, so the new things is one and we already got that in the record too about the sewer too, it’s already in the record.

Richard Nicholas stated, so the new thing that you’ve got would be, well we’ve already got in the record and we’d have to…

Richard Nicholas stated, you should have pretty much everything here, this was, yea, this is just what just to verify…

President Anderson stated, and we know about the lot size you know that’s why we said they’d have to go to the Board of Zoning Appeals and it doesn’t have a sewer system that they can hook up to so they would have to…

Richard Nicholas stated, there are not sewers in Buffalo, there are no sewers what so ever in Buffalo, currently none so you’re talking septic and that is what the, the, that’s what we’re, it would have to be if there were sewer it might not be a problem but there’s not there’s only septics in Buffalo. The property is not big enough, bottom line the property is not big enough. Not even close.

President Anderson asked, so you want to enter that into the, is that a new one or is that the one we all ready have?

Attorney Altman stated, I think it’s the one we have. I'll just mark it exhibit A since he’s wanting to profess ownership to it, objectors.

Richard Nicholas stated, so basically that’s what it boils down to.

President Anderson stated, do we have anybody else in the audience want to make it, with a problem with this request though, that wants to speak, if you’ve got anything new then, what he said then that to add to it. Does anybody else want to go ahead and come forward and say your name?

Nona Crew stated, I would like to clarify…

President Anderson stated, want to state your name.

Nona Crew stated, Nona Crew.

President Anderson stated, want to state your name first.

Nona Crew asked, pardon?

President Anderson stated, you’ve got to state your name.

Nona Crew stated, I did, Nona Crew.

President Anderson stated, okay I didn’t hear you.

Nona Crew stated, I want to clarify one thing uh, as they were passing around their petition they had in it that we could never replace our modular homes because that…

Carol Kerns stated, manufactured.

Nona Crew asked, pardon?

Carol Kerns stated, manufactured.

Nona Crew stated, manufactured home or modular homes because they come in on wheels which would cause them to be a trailer and most of our subdivision is modular homes so I want to make sure that’s clarified.

President Anderson asked, clarified as to?

Nona Crew asked, if our home burns down can we put in another modular?

Director Weaver stated, if, a modular and a manufactured are 2 different structures.

Nona Crew stated, uh huh.

Director Weaver stated, a manufactured home does come in on wheels, where a modular home does not, it comes in on a trailer and is set by a crane, okay, so there are 2 different kinds.

Mike Smolek stated, one of them will have a BMV title to it, the Bureau of Motor Vehicles, the other one will have a HUD sticker and that’s how the states now decided that’s how there going to, what they’re going to call them.

Nona Crew stated, okay. So are either or either one of those?

President Anderson stated, one of them is.

Director Weaver stated, a manufactured home can only go in certain zonings. It is permitted in an A-1, an A-2, and an R-4 zoning. You have to have a special exception for it to go in an L-1, RR, R-1, an R-2, and R-3 zonings, okay now a modular home is allowed in any zoning just like a stick built home.

Nona Crew stated, um hum.

Director Weaver stated, but a manufactured home would have to meet these requirements.

Nona Crew stated, okay.

Director Weaver stated, okay.

President Anderson asked, does anybody else have any questions about this?

Richard Nicholas stated, I’m sorry I forgot to give you these pictures but I do have something to say though, I think Diann told me if I’m not mistaken, or one of the ladies said that if there is all ready a manufactured home, double wide whatever you want to call it there and something were to happen to it that you can apply for a permit to replace that and more then likely you would get it because that’s not only what was existing but also what was, what is in the area.

Director Weaver stated, right, well you would still have to go through the special exception…

Richard Nicholas stated, special but more the…

Director Weaver stated, if that’s what’s required.

Richard Nicholas stated, but more then likely I mean your just replacing the home that was there, it’s not like your moving something new in and, so it would be, no guarantees but more than likely.

Director Weaver stated, it would be to your advantage if you’re putting in a similar home as to what was there.

Richard Nicholas stated, I forgot these pictures, I left them right up here, I wanted you to, these are what we don’t want no matter…

President Anderson asked, is this on that property?

Richard Nicholas stated, yes it is.

Director Weaver stated, they do have copies of the pictures you’ve all ready given me.

Richard Nichols stated, there’s the property.

President Anderson asked, are these the same pictures we got in the…

Richard Nichols stated, you got those all ready, okay these you don’t have. These are what’s in the area, that’s representatives of the homes that are in the area in Washburn Drive only Washburn Drive, no place else, those are representatives of the homes and this is her home in question. This is the one she wants to move it. You can take those as well there’s 4 pictures as well. I’m done, thank you.

President Anderson asked, do you want to look at this and see if this is the home that you want to…

Carol Kerns stated, yea. Yes that is.

President Anderson stated, okay. When you get done with those pictures give them to Jerry after.

Dave Scott asked, is there a septic permit for this or?

President Anderson stated, it’s in the record to what they’ve got, the only thing they have, do you have any other proof of a septic system being in there besides the one that he stated about?

Carol Kerns stated, no, they told me when I bought it that they redid it all.

President Anderson stated, and that’s all you know. Okay.

Director Weaver stated, there will be, have to be a septic permit issued through the Health Department before they can get their building permit.

President Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any other questions about the request? You want to bring these pictures back to Jerry so he can enter them into the record.

Mike Smolek stated, I’m trying to catch up.

Carol Kerns asked, may I speak again please?

Mike Smolek stated, please.

President Anderson stated, yea you want to come forward and state your name then. You have to restate your…

Mike Smolek stated, tell me what you said again. I came in late.

Carol Kerns stated, I’m Carol Kerns and as far as the trailer goes yes it needs some work done to it, yes I’m in the process of doing some work, as far as it needing a new roof, it needs a rubber, whatever that rubber stuff is, I don’t know but in order to do that I need to move the trailer first or it will crack and with the way the weather is I don’t want to spend all that money re-rubbering it before I move it.

Mike Smolek asked, how old is this trailer?

Carol Kerns stated, it’s a 90, 1990.

Mike Smolek asked, and what’s the restrictions on that on being able to move it, is it right at that?

Director Weaver stated, it’s a 1981.

Carol Kerns stated, it’s a 1981.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t think that changed, not that I recall.

Mike Smolek stated, I think there’s a year, it can only be so old before it can be moved, that’s not anything to do with our regulations.

Director Weaver stated, oh well then I’m not aware of any…

Mike Smolek stated, that’s state regulations.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know those regulations.

Carol Kerns stated, 1981 or newer is what your paper said that you guys sent me.

Mike Smolek stated, well it’s not our regulations, that’s state regulations on how old they are after a certain time, you can’t move them regardless.

Carol Kerns stated, right, right.

Mike Smolek stated, you have to tear them down.

Carol Kerns stated, um, as of them saying, or this gentleman back here saying about moving 2 trailers in, if I would sell the property it doesn’t meet any of the codes for that, you would have to have 2 dwellings on it as he stated, it wouldn’t be big enough for that so even if I would sell the property which I have no intentions of doing that in the first place, you wouldn’t be able to put another sewer in it, there trying to hook up the sewers for Buffalo, there not going to doing that for 2 properties or 2 dwellings on that property because it’s not big enough to do that so even if I wanted to put 2 trailers in there’s a lot of other regulations that would not even meet the standards for that. As the lady that was speaking earlier, far as the manufactures and the mobile homes as I contacted the office and I was told the exact same thing. There was a trailer on this property. It was not livable. A tree fell and it destroyed the whole property. As my neighbors they all know how bad this property was when I bought it. It took me a very long time to clean it up and move this trailer, they could have left it, I mean he wasn’t having any intentions of cleaning this property up and he has none if I don’t go through with buying this property, that property is going to sit there just like it is. And nobody’s going to use it, it’s a waste of property. Um, I’m not trying to cause a big argument between the neighborhood, I do have names on the neighborhood that does not mind that don’t agree with me not being able to put the trailer in, as, I’m not going to present that because I don’t want everybody else, the neighborhood to get into an argument over it. I just want to move my trailer in there and live with my kids, that’s it.

President Anderson asked, anybody else in the audience have any other questions about the request at all? If not how about the commissioners, you have any questions about the request? I’d say let’s go ahead and vote then.

Attorney Altman stated, while they’re voting I want to state for the record that we received objectors exhibit A which is a 1, 2, 3 sheets of regular paper showing people that objected to the proposed rezoning and I also marked grouped exhibit B which is one of 7 and group exhibit C, which is 7 or 3 folders.

Attorney Altman stated, announcing the results of the balloting on rezoning #963, we have 8 votes cast, 7 votes vote no, 1 vote votes yes. It’ will be forwarded to the County Commissioners for the final say and final vote on this with a negative recommendation and Diann that will be when?

The results of the vote were as follows: 1 affirmative and 7 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.

Director Weaver stated, it will be Monday morning at 8:30 normally is when they put us on the agenda, here in this room.

Attorney Altman stated, next Monday morning 8:30 in the morning right here okay and they have the final say folks and there will be no other notification of that that’s why I wanted to make sure out loud everybody knew about it. We also for the record received a plat, looks like a plat of this lot and I’m marking it as objectors exhibit D.


President Anderson stated, so anybody interested in this should be at that commissioners meeting. Next on the agenda would be amendments to our ordinance I suppose and if anybody wants to leave now they can go ahead and leave that way we won’t disrupt the meeting with the people getting up.

Director Weaver stated, first I’d like to let the Board know that we have been adopted county wide now, Burnettsville was the last town to adopt the ordinance and that was done on the 7th of October so this ordinance is now county wide.

Mike Smolek asked, so now we can start changing it?

Attorney Altman stated, all ready done some of that.

Director Weaver stated, I only have one amendment that I’m giving to you tonight and I have not advertised it, I wanted you to look it over before I did advertise it, um, be the first page that I’ve given you that’s more current is how the current ordinance reads, the second page what is in red are the changes that I’ve made to this. Um, I don’t really expect an answer right now, if you want to look it over that’s fine or if you want to get back with me later this week, that’s fine too but I will get it advertised if I don’t hear anything I’ll get it advertised so it will be on for us to vote at the next meeting.


President Anderson stated, okay next on the agenda would be business and the only thing we’ve got is, is anybody here representing, is Cathy Russell here or, you want to come, she’d like to talk to us I guess about this Meadowbrook Subdivision.

Cathy Russell stated, yes. Hi I’m Cathy Russell and I own the Meadowbrook Subdivision and I really just wanted to come and get kind of a general consensus from the Area Plan Commission because I um, having been trying to reconfigure it a little but not add any lots, not subtract any lots and um, when I had Jim Milligan working on it and when he contacted me the other day or I contacted him to see how he was coming he said we got a little problem because they’ve changed the amount of square footage you need for each lot so now I have a subdivision that’s platted that I could go ahead and do, in fact you guys, Jerry do they have the money or who has the money for the part of the…

Director Weaver stated, treasurer’s office.

Attorney Altman stated, the treasurer’s office.

Cathy Russell stated, the treasurer’s office has part of the money for the road to go in there and I can go ahead and do it the way it is but I really wanted to cut down the road, the road, the amount of road and kind of make it a little bit neat and um, thought I came up with a really good plan but I also apparently you guys pass a new ordinance that says that you have to have more ground and I called Diann like I call her all the time and she’s probably sick of hearing from me...

Director Weaver stated, not at all.

Cathy Russell stated, and I said, I said what do I do about this and she said goes well I don’t know so um, that’s what I wanted to talk to you guys about.

Director Weaver stated, I’ve given the Board also a copy of the clause that you and I had discussed that says when there continuous and there not meeting the current requirements that’s what I just passed out to the Board so that they can look at that as well. I’ll give you a copy, I have an extra copy.

Cathy Russell stated, okay.

President Anderson stated, I think…

Cathy Russell stated, and I’m sorry I didn’t make, I had given Diann this thing I think but I didn’t make a copy and I tried to get a copy but what I, this is the current subdivision, I’ll hold it up so you can kind of see. This is um, Sheridan Road and this is Chalmers Road so the current subdivision you, there’s a house right here right now and the current subdivision the road comes in like this and it goes out over here and it comes over and cul-de-sac’s here. What I was proposing to do was just make this road come in and cul-de-sac and actually give this guy some more ground up here, I mean just give him that land and then add to all these and it, I mean it looks like a nicer subdivision to me then the way it is right now because I don’t…

President Anderson asked, how would they get…

Cathy Russell asked, pardon me?

President Anderson asked, do they have road access on the…

Cathy Russell stated, yea this is Chalmers Road.

President Anderson stated, right.

Cathy Russell stated, and this is Sheridan Road so the road would come in and cul-de-sac right here. These lots all go out on Chalmers Road all ready.

President Anderson stated, right.

Cathy Russell stated, and then I guess you could probably come in either way on this but we have to look at site and all that.

President Anderson asked, how about this?

Cathy Russell stated, then these would just come, there will be a cul-de-sac here and these become pies and I can show you but I’m sorry I didn’t make the copies for you.

Director Weaver stated, I could run down and make copies if the Board would want.

Cathy Russell stated, would you, can you, okay because that way it will be easier.

President Anderson stated, okay you’d make them pie shaped so they got an entrance on the cul-de-sac then.

Cathy Russell stated, um hum. I’m sorry.

Director Weaver stated, that’s okay.

Cathy Russell stated, and rather than just you know keep trying to do stuff and then coming back to you guys and saying do you like it, I just thought maybe I could kind of get your general consensus first so that I don’t waste time trying to do this because I do have a dead line to put that road in. Right Jerry?

Attorney Altman stated, that’s right.

President Anderson stated, the way this reads in the ordinance if those lots haven’t been sold the way this reads um, they would have to meet the standards of the new ordinance but I don’t think that’s fair to subdivisions as we’ve already passed that were under the old ordinance. We’d have to amend this but now if you go and try to change the subdivision…

Cathy Russell stated, yea and that’s kind of what…

President Anderson stated, then you’re getting into…

Cathy Russell stated, that’s kind of why I’m here is because I thought I’m not trying to make the lots, there’s not going to be anymore lots but I was reconfiguring them but if that does, if it’s got to be the way it’s got to be I, you know to me, I mean thinking about from just a practical stand point I think you know if it’s going to make a nicer subdivision to come in and just do that that way with the one thing, why would you go ahead and make something that’s yucky and ugly when you could do something that would look nicer. But I’m not going to add any lots but then I also understand that that means that you’ve got to make an exception or something so unless you have some kind of way that you can deed back and forth adjacent land owners.

Mike Smolek asked, well when it was passed originally it was in compliance, right?

Cathy Russell stated, yes.

President Anderson stated, it was compliance then but now the way this reads there will be a lot of subdivisions that haven’t been sold continuous lots, there’s no buildings on that would be out of compliance with that that amendment…

Mike Smolek asked, how many subdivisions do we got under construction right now?

President Anderson stated, well I think we ought to amend this to exclude subdivisions that are already passed.

Gerald Cartmell asked, for how long, 2 years, 1 year?

President Anderson stated, it would be anything that we passed to this day would approved before would be grandfathered to the old ordinance.

Cathy Russell stated, I can tell you that this did happen in Lafayette, in Tippecanoe County.

President Anderson asked, did it?

Cathy Russell stated, back in 77 and the same issue came up because they changed the amount of square footage for the lot and they did go back and do this very same thing and…

President Anderson stated, but what she’s asking us is though is can we allow her to change that subdivision if it is, if we go back and keep her with the old ordinance, can we let her change that, wasn’t there a percent change that they could do to a subdivision without redoing the subdivision or…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, that was on a planned unit development.

President Anderson asked, that was on a planned unit development, not a subdivision?

Attorney Altman stated, the only I can say is legally if she changes it…

President Anderson stated, goes with the new.

Attorney Altman stated, goes with the new, I hate to say it, uh, I, she unfortunately has a situation where she got a survey and a plat and she just basically locked in Doc, I, if you want to change it she’s got to bring in a plat again and get I approved.

Mike Smolek stated, she’s basically got to start over.

Attorney Altman stated, yea, start over, yea.

President Anderson stated, yea, have to start all over.

Cathy Russell asked, is it, but if I start over there’s no, under the new subdivision ordinance there would be no way that I could get this amount of lots, is that correct?

President Anderson stated, no, I don’t think.

Cathy Russell asked, if I, okay let me ask you this, on this map if I go ahead and pave down to here these lots are all remaining the same anyway, so I could go ahead and sell these and then maybe at a later date I could redo this under a planned development at the end?

Attorney Altman stated, you got to understand, I think you can do it, it’s possible but.

Mike Smolek stated, it wouldn’t fall underneath a PUD classification though because it’s not a multiple use, I mean your looking at houses. Isn’t that what Dave told us when we’re going through this stuff? You don’t mix like housing and business and different entities into that.

Director Weaver stated, planned unit developments do.

Cathy Russell stated, I can throw some boat storage over there, just kidding.

Mike Smolek stated, I know what you’re getting at but I don’t know if you could bring it through under a PUD because it’s not really the definition.

Cathy Russell stated, so I could use that money to go this far and then just hang until I decide what else I wanted to do with it.

Mike Smolek stated, or until we decide to something with the ordinance.

Attorney Altman stated, I think it was to put the improvements in however it’s going to go as far as it goes Dave, so that you know it’s only going to go so far, if that’s what it is to do um, then she’s going to have to put the rest in out of her pocket, that was the way it was. That’s the way it always is.

Cathy Russell stated, um hum.

Attorney Altman stated, we collected the damage to put the improvements in and then the rest of it was to come out of the developer’s pocket. However she still has this limited amount of time and I must tell you I don’t have that in my mind Diann do you remember?

Cathy Russell stated, it’s about April.

Attorney Altman stated, April next year that she has to have it all in so…

Cathy Russell stated, yea, I don’t think I, they didn’t say I have to have the whole thing in. I have to use, I have that amount of time to use up that amount of money.

Attorney Altman stated, whatever it is, it is.

Cathy Russell stated, yea, yea.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t have it set in front of me and I don’t mean to…

Director Weaver stated, I don’t think I do either, I didn’t bring…

President Anderson stated, but if you only went part way with that then eventually you would have to finish it out if you were going to sell those other lots out there…

Cathy Russell stated, right.

President Anderson stated, but it had to be finished out the way that it is right now or then you’re changing the subdivision and if you change the subdivision then even the lots you sold would be out of compliance at that point wouldn’t it?

Cathy Russell stated, it just seems like this is such a nice, much nicer plan and it’s just too bad that Jim didn’t get it done before the end of July because we’ve been looking at it for awhile haven’t we?

Director Weaver stated, yea, we have, yea.

Cathy Russell stated, because I met Diann a couple of times…

President Anderson asked, commissioners want to comment on that at all what their feelings are on…

Cathy Russell asked, do you, I mean do you like the plan better than what it was? I mean even if, I even think about things like it’s even less, I mean obviously these roads are going to have to be maintained by the county so it’s less roads for you guys to even maintain. And so then I think well when does you know, logic and reason prevail over well this is a rule and you just got to do it.

President Anderson stated, yea dummies.

Gerald Cartmell stated, your talking about the government. You’re not talking about normal people.

Cathy Russell stated, yea but you guys are normal people that’s why I’m here.

Gerald Cartmell stated, we have to go by whatever they say.

Cathy Russell stated, yea, yea the other one isn’t a turning, it’s like a half a cul-de-sac.

President Anderson asked, do we have any comment from the commissioners on that?

Mike Smolek asked, what is she asking from us just our opinion?

President Anderson stated, she wanted an opinion on whether…

Cathy Russell stated, yea I don’t want to go any farther if I’m going to…

President Anderson asked, legally is there any way we could do that legally?

Cathy Russell stated, see this is not even as good for police and fire.

Attorney Altman stated, you can give an opinion but it’s not…

President Anderson stated, right but I mean is there any way we could change that legally with the old ordinance?

Cathy Russell stated, see I don’t want to come in here like this lady and have a bunch of people against me and then…

Attorney Altman stated, you can’t put it under the old ordinance without variances.

Cathy Russell stated, I just want peace in the world.

Attorney Altman stated, you can’t do…

President Anderson stated, so they’d have to go to get a variance to change it to…

Attorney Altman stated, that’s basically what she’s saying is…

President Anderson stated, but can that subdivision get a variance under the old…

Attorney Altman stated, they, well what it amounts to, the only way that you can do that is BZA would approve the lots with the old ordinances setbacks and that’s a big if.

President Anderson stated, yea.

Attorney Altman stated, but it they did…

Cathy Russell stated, and see I don’t take it, I don’t want to run the risk that I’m not going to get something done and then I, then I you know, but, I want it to look nice, I really do want it to look nice. I want to put little monuments…

Dave Rosenbarger asked, what’s out of compliance with the new ordinance?

Cathy Russell stated, actually the, um…

President Anderson stated, the lot size.

Director Weaver stated, yea the lot sizes.

Cathy Russell stated, the covenants will allow for modular’s, the people around the edge said they didn’t want modular’s or manufactured or whatever you want to call them and I said you know I don’t have a problem with that. I would just as soon have stick built homes. I want it to be nice. I want it to be something that I can be proud of but that also you guys can be proud of.

Attorney Altman stated, yep.

Cathy Russell stated, but I also don’t want you know go down the road and start with, start with the BZA and then find out that they’re going to just nix me and not listen to me and I can’t get it done in time to use the money so.

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing I can say is if you look at the present subdivision that she’s holding there the lots that are on the west corner and south are to be internal in other words there not to come off of Chalmers blacktop and what she’s proposing would because…

Cathy Russell asked, which ones, these?

Attorney Altman stated, yea there’s a road down there with a cul-de-sac and that’s why that was approved with that…

Mike Smolek asked, who owns the road?

Attorney Altman stated, I’d say she does but it would be dedicated.

Cathy Russell stated, it would be dedicated to the county.

Attorney Altman stated, it would be dedicated to the county.

Mike Smolek stated, okay but what I’m saying is so that road basically goes back half to each property along there.

Attorney Altman stated, yes, right.

Cathy Russell asked, this one?

Attorney Altman stated, well…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, the one in the subdivision.

Cathy Russell asked, this one right here?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, yea.

Attorney Altman stated, yea, except that she owns all that right now so it all goes back to her, if it were to be vacated, okay.

Mike Smolek stated, I guess my thought process in that is why couldn’t she just go ahead and build it like that and just file as-builts after it’s finished because there had to be some kind of a change type of thing.

Attorney Altman asked, build like that?

Mike Smolek stated, no and finish, because basically I guess what I’m asking is, if these properties are sold where basically half of this goes back to the properties as there sold off. Right now it’s all hers, right.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, um hum.

Mike Smolek asked, but when this property right here’s sold off do they own half that road?

Director Weaver stated, no.

Attorney Altman stated, no, no.

Mike Smolek asked, okay so it’s all ready been granted to the county?

Don Ward stated, no, well once it’s finalized and recorded, yes but then it belongs to the county.

Mike Smolek stated, right.

Don Ward stated, but they don’t accept it until it’s built up and ready to be completed or is completed then they have to accept it. It’s dedicated anyway to them but if they don’t want it, they don’t have to…

Mike Smolek asked, so when she sells off the lot she’s just selling off the markers then…

Don Ward stated, yes.

Mike Smolek stated, and she’s retaining the right to the road herself.

Don Ward stated, well until the county takes it over. The county won’t take it over until it’s all done.

Mike Smolek asked, so couldn’t she just deed off a little bit more of this to this property over here and just build it out? I mean that’s a way, I don’t know maybe I’m reaching here.

Attorney Altman stated, no.

Cathy Russell stated, well…

President Anderson stated, that’s when she’s changing the…

Attorney Altman stated, it’d be changing the subdivision.

President Anderson stated, subdivision.

Cathy Russell stated, the thing of it is um, Jerry on this, on these 2 they do have, these 2 do have frontage on Chalmers Road.

Attorney Altman stated, oh yea they have frontage but it would keep them from building and coming off into Chalmers Road.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, this subdivision doesn’t allow them to put a driveway onto the Chalmers blacktop.

Attorney Altman stated, right, yes.

Cathy Russell stated, but these all do.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, the way it is.

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s a fairly significant…

Cathy Russell stated, but I did take this one and made like a lane to it so it wouldn’t come off of Chalmers Road so basically I’d be asking for 2 more lanes, 2 more drives off of Chalmers Road, not 3.

President Anderson asked, then how large was your lane to that one lot then?

Cathy Russell stated, it’s whatever…

Dave Scott stated, 30’ it says.

Director Weaver stated, 30’.

Cathy Russell stated, 30’ wide.

President Anderson asked, what’s it have to be? It’d have to be 50’ if you want the county to take that over too.

Cathy Russell stated, well that darn surveyor.

Director Weaver stated, she’s made part of the lot.

Don Ward stated, that’s because of fire trucks and everything else.

Cathy Russell stated, well I think its, this is like a driveway, it’s not a, it’s not a public road.

Director Weaver stated, its part of the lot.

Don Ward stated, I know but we’ve had this happen before.

Cathy Russell asked, okay so they don’t allow that?

Don Ward stated, we allow, we make them 50’.

Cathy Russell stated, it can be 50’.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, uh.

Denny Sterrett asked, don’t you have access with Chalmers Road there, did I miss something?

Attorney Altman stated, yea…

Cathy Russell stated, we do but I didn’t want, I wanted to limit the number of driveways off of Chalmers Road.

Attorney Altman stated, and the old subdivision does that Jim, or Denny.

Denny Sterrett stated, yea.

Attorney Altman stated, and that’s good planning to limit that if you can.

President Anderson stated, you know we can’t vote on anything but I think if you try to change it that way, you are changing the ordinance or, you are changing the subdivision, if you change the subdivision then it would have to come under the new subdivision.

Cathy Russell stated, okay, let me, can I ask you one other thing though, okay what if I and I’m not trying to stretch or anything but let me just, because I’ve asked Diann this too, what if on like the way it is, if I left it the way it is right now which really isn’t good because you’ve got this but what if I put a cul-de-sac right here and deeded that ground to each of those lots and had access to that lot through the cul-de-sac because this guy could have that ground easy.

Mike Smolek stated, yea that’s what I was getting at if you made that cul-de-sac part of somebody’s property…

Cathy Russell stated, this one right here.

Mike Smolek asked, and made an easement back to anybody that lives in that, wouldn’t that do the same thing or am I bending the rules too much?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, but Diann is saying that if you do that then the lot sizes aren’t big enough.

Mike Smolek stated, right it’s still the same size lot, you’re just making the driveway on top of their property, see what I’m saying.

Gerald Cartmell stated, then you’ve got to have that…

Mike Smolek stated, then just make an easement to whoever lives in that thing, make a drive on it.

Gerald Cartmell stated, an encroachment.

Attorney Altman stated, I could see that a whole lot more recommended then the other way uh, for the reason that number 1 is lot number, I just like to say this on the record, lot number 27 all ready goes on Sheridan Road…

Cathy Russell stated, right.

Attorney Altman stated, and 26 and 11 this would keep them from going on that and they go out to Sheridan Road the other way.

Cathy Russell stated, um hum.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t see that as a, that’s probably good planning all most, really do Doc, that’s probably good planning to eliminate…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, 27’st not on your new.

Cathy Russell stated, 27 is um…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, north of 26.

Cathy Russell stated, right and it’s actually all ready has a house on it.

President Anderson stated, but that would have to go to the BZA too, or would it?

Attorney Altman stated, well I think it would be, I’m not sure on that one.

Director Weaver stated, I’m not sure on that.

Attorney Altman stated, I had never seen or heard that but I really, it recommends itself quite a bit there because you do have that cul-de-sac there and I’m not in favor of just building roads because you build roads.

President Anderson asked, would that be something, how would we do that then?

Attorney Altman stated, I’m not sure about that Doc.

Don Ward asked, why not vacate the subdivision and start over?

Attorney Altman stated, because she’d have to go under the new ordinance which makes it much more encumbering.

Director Weaver stated, the lots are a lot bigger, she is zoned A-1.

Cathy Russell asked, what’s that, just…

Don Ward stated, well there all ready an acre.

Director Weaver stated, yea but the width of the lot would have to be 250’ wide instead of 150’ wide.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, see all these are 210 and 220.

Attorney Altman stated, and it’s great if she gets a variance but if she doesn’t she’s spun a lot of wheels.

Cathy Russell asked, is the new ordinance 1 acre still?

Director Weaver stated, 1 ½ acres.

Cathy Russell stated, okay that’s what I thought.

President Anderson stated, so then you cut down the amount of lots by a bunch, the amount of lots you could have on there then.

Attorney Altman stated, yea.

Mike Smolek stated, and you’re saying on this one…

Cathy Russell stated, well this one they would come in to that property from that lane off of this road.

Attorney Altman asked, Doc, the best I can say about that second proposal…

Cathy Russell stated, Chalmers Road and there’s a low spot, we actually one of the other things, one of the other reasons that I started redesigning this was because of drainage because when I bought it and what’s approved doesn’t have drainage, so I added a pond, a retention area and that’s why we got started redesigning it all together I mean I can go with this plan but it doesn’t have drainage.

Attorney Altman stated, the best thing I can tell you is, is the proposal you just put down, where you put that cul-de-sac on was it lot 28 and 11, I would like to think about that as a, whether that could be accommodated or not before you, in other words what we’re really saying is I like, I think the Board would like to think about that as a possibility.

President Anderson stated, yea but how would we think about that, we’d have to think of that as a Board and we’re all ready here right now.

Attorney Altman stated, well my problem is I haven’t read, I read the ordinance to see if there’s any slack to let her do that because I wasn’t aware that was on the table as a proposal Doc.

Mike Smolek asked, what’s the cost going to be to go through the new subdivision and do all that stuff and blah, blah, blah?

Director Weaver stated, the fees haven’t changed yet, they haven’t adopted a new fee schedule.

Mike Smolek stated, she’s going to have to go and get new drawings…

Director Weaver stated, she’s going to have to replat the subdivision is what she’s going to have to do.

Cathy Russell stated, okay and I’m, your always worried about cost but to replat, I mean I’ve already got, he’s all ready done all this work but my main concern is that I do start to replat it and then I come here and I get a thumbs down on it from, because they say well your starting all over again so you’ve got to have 1 ½ acre lots now so now you can only do 16 lots instead of 20 whatever it is.

Director Weaver stated, Cathy one thing I don’t know that we have discussed with subdivision under the new ordinance it doesn’t go straight to the APC it goes to a Tech Committee first and the Tech Committee reviews the plan first before it goes to the APC and is on their agenda so it’s kind of a…

Mike Smolek stated, a buffer or whatever.

Director Weaver stated, the committee to kind of work…

Mike Smolek stated, a place to kind of ask questions.

Director Weaver stated, yea, yea.

Cathy Russell asked, so would this be the thing that I should take to them?

Attorney Altman stated, sound like it.

Cathy Russell stated, I mean because who, I’m kind of confused because I don’t know really who votes. Like do you guys vote?

Director Weaver stated, the APC will vote on the subdivision.

Mike Smolek stated, we will vote on it.

President Anderson stated, yea but I don’t know if we can vote on that on what we’ve got there.

Mike Smolek stated, no.

Cathy Russell stated, and again I mean I want to know, I want to understand from what Jerry see’s in there of what kind of slack there is before I, I mean I can take it to the tech meeting, I can even just give it to you now to take to the tech meeting.

Director Weaver stated, well and to get to the tech committee you actually have to file a subdivision.

President Anderson stated, well you would have to redo it.

Director Weaver stated, I mean you would have to actually have to file.

Cathy Russell stated, see there’s, and see that’s what, that’s what bothers me because once I refile the subdivision then I’ve abandoned this subdivision.

President Anderson stated, I think really you’d be better off staying with the subdivision the way it is.

Attorney Altman stated, um, no, you wouldn’t of, you won’t abandon it until it’s approved.

Cathy Russell asked, so I can, I can refile this, with, go to the tech, refile it?

President Anderson stated, yea but you couldn’t refile it under the old ordinance you’d have to refile it under the new ordinance.

Cathy Russell stated, oh and see that’s not going work because then it’s going to change everything.

President Anderson stated, yea.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you wouldn’t be doing the whole subdivision right you’d just be doing a refile of lots…

Director Weaver stated, right just the one there on the end.

Cathy Russell stated, um hum.

Dennis Sterrett stated, you’d still have Meadowbrook number 2 and then you’d have a replat.

Director Weaver stated, replat of those lots.

Cathy Russell stated, so…

President Anderson asked, is that something we can vote on though, have to replatting under the old subdivision ordinance?

Attorney Altman stated, no, not under the old.

President Anderson stated, it’d have to be under the new ordinance so that’s not going to do you any good either.

Mike Smolek stated, it wouldn’t be zoned A-1 either…

Attorney Altman stated, well it might do her some good as to those the lots that are east Doc.

Mike Smolek stated, it would be RR, it would have to get rezoned too.

Attorney Altman stated, in other words it’d be okay for that but it won’t do for this is what I’m saying.

President Anderson stated, yea.

Director Weaver stated, if she replats it would have to go RR.

Mike Smolek stated, yea it wouldn’t keep the same zoning either.

Director Weaver stated, I hadn’t thought about that.

Dave Scott asked, if you go to RR does that change the lot size?

Mike Smolek asked, does that change the lot size?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t think so.

Denny Sterrett asked, who made that ordinance?

Director Weaver stated, well it would since its on sewers now that might be the key here since it’s on sewers it can go 21,780 square feet which is…

President Anderson stated, so she’d get more lots on it.

Mike Smolek stated, there you go…

Cathy Russell stated, I’m just trying to get…

Director Weaver stated, you still have a 250’ width though.

President Anderson stated, oh.

Dennis Sterrett asked, frontage or just?

Director Weaver stated, yea, minimum lot width is 250’.

Don Ward stated, it probably will only be 100’ then.

Director Weaver stated, yea, I don’t, it kind of defeats the purpose to me.

Mike Smolek asked, wouldn’t it be easier to just take the paragraph out of the ordinance?

Dennis Sterrett stated, that’s going to proportion the lots way funny.

Attorney Altman stated, no, I mean the one paragraph I think you're right but this others gotta stay probably, this I think you're right.

Cathy Russell stated, I mean from a real estate stand point 250’ wide and 100’ deep, your right is weird, you’re asking for…

Mike Smolek stated, I didn’t put those numbers in there.

Director Weaver stated, I’m not sure why that numbers that way I mean I’ve noticed that before that it’s the same as the A-1 I think probably should have been a little smaller but it’s not, it’s not, at least not at the moment.

President Anderson asked, yea but is that something we need to change?

Director Weaver stated, I think maybe there’s some other things Mike and I have talked about and Denny and I have talked about it and…

President Anderson stated, let’s consider changing the nonconforming lots of record and combination with the old subdivisions we’ve got to change that and let’s talk about changing that.

Mike Smolek stated, I’ve got a question.

President Anderson asked, how many foot would you think?

Mike Smolek stated, I know why that was put in there because they were talking about all these lots that’s been subdivided for 15 years, blah, blah, blah, but if something’s under construction, that’s been proposed here in the last 2 years why can’t we just classify it down to that and then anything that’s like older then that that nobody’s doing anything with has to come in and refile.

Director Weaver stated, my thought was anything that’s gone through the Area Plan Commission should be grandfathered and then prior to that…

Mike Smolek stated, yea I know because you got stuff back in 1980 that was in there that you know that maybe they’ve never done anything with that really will be way out of compliance.

Director Weaver stated, well this subdivision would, how old is this subdivision.

President Anderson stated, yea we could put a date limit on the amount of time we’d let a subdivision sit.

Director Weaver stated, yea.

Mike Smolek stated, or maybe you can go back to the last ordinance and if it’s 2 ordinances out it has to come back into compliance or something, I don’t know.

Attorney Altman stated, um hum.

Greg Bossaer stated, well there can’t be that many though.

Attorney Altman stated, well…

Director Weaver stated, you’d probably be surprised.

Attorney Altman stated, you’d be surprised, I mean yea, a lot of them are built on but there’s a lot or 2 in there and then that one south of Brookston has got a lot of lots in there, a lot of lots that are open.

President Anderson stated, I guess we really can’t give you an answer right now.

Attorney Altman stated, however, you have proposed something that I find intriguing and I’ll look at that okay.

Cathy Russell asked, which one the part where I do that cul-de-sac?

Attorney Altman stated, the cul-de-sac, yea.

Dave Scott asked, we just can’t modify this under the…

Cathy Russell stated, okay here’s the other thing…

Mike Smolek stated, that’s what we’re trying to figure out.

Cathy Russell stated, I’m like, I’m panicking on deadlines because I know how long it takes to get a road in and I’ve got this guy that’s just dying to put the road in. Can I start putting the road up to here?

Mike Smolek asked, are they 2 subdivisions A and B, is that…

Cathy Russell stated, no it’s 1 subdivision…

Director Weaver stated, it’s all one.

Cathy Russell stated, but I could at least get started.

Mike Smolek asked, could you break it out in A and B?

Director Weaver asked, there’s no reason why she can’t put that road in up to where she thinks she’s going to modify it, is there?

Attorney Altman stated, not a bit of reason.

Denny Sterrett asked, so you have a road designed yet?

Cathy Russell stated, I guess, I don’t know the guy, you know that guy that’s doing it. What’s…

Mike Smolek stated, you better go talk to him over there.

Cathy Russell stated, maybe your one of the ones. Are you going to do it?

Dennis Sterrett stated, no, I’m the surveyor.

Cathy Russell stated, oh okay.

Attorney Altman stated, no there’s no reason if you do it within compliance with the ordinance, no reason you can’t put that road in.

Cathy Russell stated, we just sent, we got the, we got the county thing and he said he was going to put it in according to county specs.

Director Weaver stated, I think I have talked to whoever it was but I don’t remember who that was.

Cathy Russell stated, it’s that guy with the…

Dennis Sterrett stated, it erodes part of the drainage…

Director Weaver asked, Jimmy Overbeck?

Cathy Russell stated, Overbeck, yea.

Director Weaver stated, yea, okay.

Mike Smolek stated, and tell Jimmy it’s got to go through his office first.

Cathy Russell stated, okay, that’s not a problem. Okay so, so I just, so is my next step to go to his office and get…

Dennis Sterrett stated, well I would think the road would be part of your drainage permit, if you’re going to have catch basins in the…

Cathy Russell asked, well how am I going to do that now because, because that is a problem because where it’s low is right over in here and where Milligan put in that pond was like a retention pond over here but I can’t do it there if I’m going to wipe out a lot so how do I do that now?

Gerald Cartmell stated, talk to your guy who designed it for you.

Cathy Russell stated, I bought it all ready done, platted.

Dennis Sterrett asked, what do you mean you're going to wipe out a lot?

Cathy Russell stated, well the pond takes out a building site because where it’s low.

Dennis Sterrett stated, new lot, whatever pond.

President Anderson stated, you have to probably…

Cathy Russell stated, where, the way it was approved was not with drainage.

Director Weaver stated, it was done before the drainage ordinance was in effect, yea.

Cathy Russell stated, see that’s why I just want to make it right. You know I wanted to make it like nice looking and right and I want to put that pond in there because I think that is important, I think that’s why you guys passed drainage ordinances because you know that there necessary.

Dennis Sterrett stated, so I don’t see a problem with you putting a pond on a lot, thing is being a bad place for…

Cathy Russell stated, but the way it was approved was with no drainage just…

President Anderson stated, I don’t think you want to do that to people that are going to live there though.

Cathy Russell stated, well I don’t want them to have an ugly subdivision either, I don’t want them to have a place where a fire truck can’t turn around.

Gerald Cartmell asked, well do you want 100 yards where the fire trucks can’t even get in there?

Cathy Russell stated, there are probably enough ways to drain it without putting a pond in but who knows, I mean it’s….

President Anderson stated, but you were going to build it so the people will buy the lots too so you don’t want the drainage problem in there so that’s up to you, I don’t think we can give you an answer on it. He’s going to check to see if you can do it.

Dave Scott stated, maybe the committee ought to meet with her and try to hash…

Attorney Altman stated, I think that’d be a good idea too.

Mike Smolek stated, I was going to say why can’t the committee just meet with her and try to hash some of this stuff out. Does it have to be refilled or…

Gerald Cartmell stated, I think that’s a good idea.

Cathy Russell stated, I would love to do that. Who’s the committee you guys?

Mike Smolek stated, some of us.

Director Weaver stated, the committee has never met yet.

Attorney Altman stated, Mike I think there’s no trouble in doing that.

Cathy Russell asked, is this a tech committee?

Director Weaver stated, a tech committee yea.

Cathy Russell stated, oh okay. That would be great. Can we do that?

Mike Smolek stated, a couple of us involved.

President Anderson stated, no if you guys decide to do away with the rest of that road, is there anyway we can do that legally?

Attorney Altman stated, I, that’s one we’ll look at, that’s one we’ll look at Doc, I…

President Anderson stated, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, to see what, she obviously can it’s whether she can do it within the confines of staying with one ordinance while, what she wants to and that’s what I got to look at.

Cathy Russell stated, okay, so will you guys notify me when the tech committee can get together and keep in mind I got to get this road started, come spring and I have a road in there.

President Anderson asked, you guys want to give her a date?

Don Ward asked, who do you have set up to do the road?

Cathy Russell stated, pardon, Overbeck, I keep calling him Hornbeck.

Don Ward stated, Overbeck, Jim Overbeck.

Cathy Russell stated, yea, Overbeck.

Mike Smolek stated, it’s going to take him around April to put it in anyways.

Cathy Russell stated, well I mean it does, that’s not cast in stone either, he’s the one that I’ve talked to.

Attorney Altman stated, I think I’ve got to look at that agreement to see the…

President Anderson asked, can you guys give her a date when you guys can meet with her?

Dennis Sterrett stated, I think we need to know when Jerry gets done looking at the, I mean we’re going to meeting on something we don’t know whether…

Attorney Altman stated, well I’ll tell you what, let, I’ll give you, I’ll get you an answer in a week.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I don’t know who the tech committee is.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t remember off the top of my head either.

Gerald Cartmell stated, Don’s one.

Greg Bossaer stated, I think Denny’s on it.

Gerald Cartmell stated, Don and Denny, I don’t remember who else, maybe Mike.

Mike Smolek asked, am I on it?

Gerald Cartmell stated, I think you are.

Attorney Altman stated, I think you are.

Mike Smolek asked, I’m on the PUD committee is that the same thing?

Don Ward stated, same thing.

Director Weaver stated, yea.

Mike Smolek stated, I guess I’m on that one to then.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I think Scott’s on it.

Dave Scott stated, yea I was in there, you didn’t have to bring that up did you?

Mike Smolek stated, I think Jim Mann’s on it too.

President Anderson stated, yea, he’s on it.

Attorney Altman stated, so…

Director Weaver stated, and we have a road commissioner that needs to be on it, I mean we were bringing other people outside of us, it would be Steve Brooke.

Cathy Russell asked, what about the sewer guys, sewer district?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t remember if they’re on it or not.

Cathy Russell stated, I’m just asking.

Director Weaver stated, that’s a good question, I don’t know.

Attorney Altman stated, so why don’t you get a date and then call Diann and line that up.

Mike Smolek stated, yea we have to get our committee together first.

Attorney Altman stated, okay.

Cathy Russell stated, I’ll be your first guinea pig.

Director Weaver stated, I’ll work on that.

Cathy Russell asked, okay so you’re going to call me with a date of when they’re going to meet?

Don Ward stated, we need copies of that in advance.

Director Weaver asked, copies of, of that?

Cathy Russell asked, do you have them?

Director Weaver stated, well I can, Denny can make them.

Dennis Sterrett stated, this has been recorded.

Cathy Russell stated, yea.

Director Weaver stated, yea, we can get them made.

Cathy Russell stated, I think we got them in your office so, okay thank you very much.


President Anderson asked, any other business?

Mike Smolek stated, yea let’s go back to that first one.

Don Ward asked, on the change of…

Mike Smolek asked, is that something we need to change as far as the R-4 is the only place we can put mobile homes in this county because it’s going to be an issue we’ve got a lot of people that can’t afford…

Director Weaver stated, we’ve had several people come in the office, there’s other people that are waiting to see what happened tonight to know if they’re going to file also.

Mike Smolek stated, now theoretically she can plead a hardship, now am I right and go back to the BZA and try to do something that way?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t think so.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think so.

Mike Smolek stated, I don’t know, I mean I’m asking.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think so.

Don Ward stated, it’s got to be rezoned.

Attorney Altman stated, excuse me, that’s what I think but 5 people over rule me every night.

Don Ward stated, I don’t think the BZA can touch it.

President Anderson stated, the Commissioners are the only one.

Greg Bossaer stated, it’s a small lot though.

Don Ward stated, yea the County Commissioners can change us, if they change us then BZA would have some room to do something. I don’t think they can touch it otherwise.


President Anderson asked, do we have another question out here in the audience about, yea you want to come forward and state your name?

Woodrow Hamm stated, thank you, my name is Woodrow Hamm, I live up by Buffalo area in Lake Breeze subdivision and I’d like to make a comment on this ordinance you passed about not putting trailers back where trailers was okay, my wife’s been in the hospital for almost 15 months now and my trailer that I live in is not handicapped accessible the hallway is not as wide as this desk much and when she does come home there’s no way that I can remodel the inside of that trailer for her wheelchair and stuff so I came in here the other day and talked to the ladies over there and they said you guys had passed an ordinance that you can’t put a trailer back in White County other then with this big special occasion or whatever acreage you need or whatever and my way of thinking on that is all these subdivisions around White County, Lake Breeze, Echo Trails, all them other ones up and down the lake all around have been had these trailers in there since day 1. Lake Breeze subdivision full up where I live there’s 3 stick built houses in the whole subdivision and 1 manufactured house not a modular but a manufactured house sitting there and the rest of them are all trailers so I would ask you people to change, amend the ordinance or whatever so that people like myself that want to upgrade and put in a newer trailer can do so like all the people out of Chicago or Indy, where ever they come down here for the weekend, there all the time upgrading stuff like that and the way the economy is right now to put in a house to the building specs it’s just, would be very few people would have the extra to do something like that where in time maybe somebody passes on or somebody and they give them a trailer or something like that whatever the case is, they could upgrade to a trailer. In my case I don’t have no money to build a house because like I said my wife’s been hospital for 15 months and will probably be in there for another 4 to 6 months anyway and I don’t have the money to do something like that but maybe I could find a newer trailer to put in to where it would be, the halls would be wider and where I could make it handicapped accessible for her so I’m just asking you to…

President Anderson asked, any comments for him?

Mike Smolek stated, I’m telling you it’s going to be a serious problem.

President Anderson stated, I think it’s going to be a serious too.

Dave Scott stated, in our town we want to do it.

Mike Smolek stated, I understand why it was put in there but I also understand we’ve got a whole class of people we’re basically saying you can’t live here anymore.

Dave Scott stated, yea in our town we wanted to get all the trailers over into the trailer park and we didn’t want them in the, so people like this gentleman or elderly person with, what we put in our ordinance was if there’s an existing lot with a mobile home on it you can replace that mobile home with a newer model…

President Anderson stated, better model.

Dave Scott stated, or, but if you take that trailer off of there and it’s off there more then a year then you can’t put another trailer back on there.

Mike Smolek stated, and going back to that and that…

Dave Scott stated, and this allowed people to upgrade yet your not putting trailers on lots next to homes. That’s just an idea.

Mike Smolek stated, our ordinance says 1981.

Director Weaver stated, I believe so, if there’s a different law, you need to let me know that.

Mike Smolek stated, I think the BMV has a restriction that after and I don’t know if it’s 10, 12, or 15 years but I know the integrity of the structure is what they’re looking at and they won’t allow you to move it.

Director Weaver stated, we need to look into that.

Mike Smolek stated, so we need to check that out too.

Director Weaver stated, yea, I will see if I can find anything but if you find something also would you get that to me, I wasn’t even aware of that.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, is there something that we can put in there that if there is an existing trailer on it, it can be replaced? So like what Dave was talking about with Monon, unless it sits vacant for a year.

Mike Smolek stated, for so many, so much of the time frame.

President Anderson asked, how about this lady that was just in here, how long, is that trailer still on that lot?

Mike Smolek stated, no.

Director Weaver stated, no the trailers gone.

Mike Smolek stated, they took it off, they cleaned it up.

Director Weaver stated, I don’t know how long it’s been gone, do you Mike?

Mike Smolek stated, I don’t know.

Denny Sterrett stated, it was in the 5 photos wasn’t it?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t think it’s been that long.

Mike Smolek stated, she’s been trying to clean this lot up for awhile now.

Dave Scott stated, see I can understand them not wanting the zoning R-4.

Mike Smolek stated, well see that’s the thing but.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, but you’re not changing the zoning…

Mike Smolek stated, we’re putting in a zoning R-4 for a subdivision, but really it’s not, it’s a lot.

Director Weaver stated, it’s not, but that was the only option that we could come up for her.

Mike Smolek stated, that was the only option, that’s exactly right.

Woodrow Hamm stated, in Lake Breeze and all these other little subdivisions around here, they was laid out for trailers.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, right.

Woodrow Hamm stated, and whatever was laid out years ago, my opinion should be grandfathered in for, I mean there’s a few lots in Lake Breeze, Echo Trails and for the rest of them that don’t have nothing on them you know and there all trailers around them. Why would somebody want to buy a little lot that’s got to spend $100,000 to build a house on something that’s cramped on it when you can put a trailer on there and still look the lot look good and be a function able place for somebody to live.

President Anderson stated, I think it’s something we’ve got to do, something we’ve got to look into to change.

Mike Smolek stated, we’re going to have to look into it.

Director Weaver asked, do we want to set up a committee to maybe discuss these and come up with ideas or…

President Anderson stated, yea, we’ve got several of them we need to do here.

Director Weaver stated, right.

Mike Smolek stated, then we get into the situation like Headlee and those lots are too small and they shouldn’t have trailers on them, I mean if you took one lot split it with the other 2 lots maybe then that would be okay but the way they’re set up now I mean they’re not, you can’t really put a garage on them.

Dave Scott stated, well like in Headlee if it’s a small lot now the septic system you couldn’t put anything on there any how so you might as well make them put 2 lots together to make…

Mike Smolek asked, so what’s the minimum requirement for a septic field?

Director Weaver stated, I can’t tell you that.

Don Ward stated, it depends on the soil, the land.

Mike Smolek stated, so I mean but maybe we could use that as a guideline on what the lot sizes need to be in this situation, I don’t know.

President Anderson asked, what size lot do you have?

Woodrow Hamm stated, they’re 90 x 130, 147 or something like that, all those lots in Lake Breeze are all smaller lots, what your talking about it was all laid out by Cooper and Heichel way back when and all those lots are actually small size. They were laid out for the older Tritan trailers, the 10 x 50…

Dave Scott stated, the other thing that I’d put in our ordinance is too that it has to be owner occupied so that some of these not…

President Anderson stated, so once you vacate it you can’t sell it.

Mike Smolek stated, because that’s the other situation, you don’t want somebody come in there, sweep in there and buy all these trailer lots up and then, and then you’ve got a slum, you might say. If its owner occupied then you’ve got somebody that’s taken care of the property and taken care of what…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, well I think the idea behind that R-4 was for bare land, somebody coming in with…

Mike Smolek stated, that’s exactly what it was for.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, coming in with a trailer, we need to have something written in for existing.

Woodrow Hamm stated, because I can see it like this lady was just in here ahead of me talking about that new subdivision, I can see you guys putting an ordinance in on something new construction to where you’ve got a certain type house and certain square footage and all of that stuff but this old stuff that’s been laid out here for decades there’s no way you can conform to that requirements on this new stuff that you’ve got.

Mike Smolek stated, we need to think of mobile homes of kind of like a car.

Dave Scott stated, as long as you can’t upgrade…

Woodrow Hamm stated, yes they are.

Mike Smolek stated, well but your right when we started talking about this, this is before us, it was bare ground that we were talking about.

President Anderson asked, would you guys want to amend it to existing trailers and existing owners of those trailers? Once that, once that property is sold then I think it would go, I don’t think we could put a trailer back on the thing.

Mike Smolek asked, your not needing an answer tonight, right?

Woodrow Hamm stated, no. I’m just trying…

Mike Smolek stated, why don’t you give us a month to get some information and revisit this.

Woodrow Hamm stated, I’m just trying to speak for myself as well as a lot of other property owners like in Lake Breeze that own this property, you know the different lots and stuff that could put a structure on it at some time and with your new zonings with the houses and stuff them sizes, these lots…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, but that is probably all ready zoned for trailer park.

Woodrow Hamm stated, it’s not a trailer park…

Director Weaver stated, no it’s not.

Woodrow Hamm stated, it’s a subdivision.

Several Board Members are talking at once.

Woodrow Hamm stated, it’s a subdivision.

Mike Smolek stated, and some of it was zoned agriculture.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, really.

Woodrow Hamm stated, it was a big farm there at one time and so was Echo Trails on the other, on the west side of the lake that got subdivided up and those 2 subdivisions I know you know go way back when and I’m sure that this gentleman over here can name probably a lot of other ones that fall in the same category and like you said you’ve got to have a certain lot size to do this and these lots, no way fall into this but if you turn it around and put a trailer on there, now you’ve got a livable piece of property so that’s the reason I’m concerned about it because, I mean there’s a lot of other you know properties scattered through out White County that’s got trailers on them that’s sitting maybe on a half acre or lot or 10 acre parcel or something like that, that falls in with your same ordinance.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, right.

Woodrow Hamm, but I thank you all for letting you speak, thank you.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, thanks for coming in.

President Anderson asked, any other business?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t have anything.


The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission

Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________