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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, December 8, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Mike Smolek, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, Gerald Cartmell, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, Greg Bossaer, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Weaver.

Visitors Attending were: Robert Gross, Janice Fultz, Floyd Fultz, Levera Gross, Kristin K. Gross, Charles R. Mellon, Sue Smith, James C. Smith, Woodrow Hamm, John J. Raines, Don Pauken, Bob Gross - R.W. Gross & Associates, Mitchell Billue and Ben Woodhouse (Deputy).

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Jim Mann made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the November 10, 2008 meeting. Motion was seconded by Don Ward and carried unanimously.


#966 N. J. Properties II, LLC; The property is located on 1.154 acres, Part 28-27-3, in Union Township, located in the City of Monticello at the southeast corner of Fisher Street and First Street. Tabled from November 10, 2008.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from I-1 to B-2.

President Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing their request? You want to come forward and state your name and give us an idea of what you’re wanting to do.

Bob Gross stated, hi my names Bob Gross from RW Gross and associates and Mitch Billue’s here from the parks department of Monticello and um, what we’re proposing to do is a skate park in that far north lot and uh, um, currently that property is zoned industrial and for a skate park we need it to be a B-2.

Mitch Billue stated, it’s going to be a mini park, it’ll be more than just a skate park. There will be a trail, playground equipment, and uh skate park, it’s more than just a skate park it’ll be a…park for the City.

President Anderson asked, questions, any questions about their request?

Bob Gross stated, now we’re only asking for lot 1, not lot 2. Lot 2 would remain industrial.

President Anderson stated, zoned individually

Mitch Billue asked, can you guys see that okay?

President Anderson asked, any commissioners have any questions about the request?

Don Ward asked, yea, where’s the building on here?

Mitch Billue asked, I’m sorry?

Don Ward stated, the old RCA building stop?

Bob Gross asked, the what, building?

Mitch Billue stated, both those buildings down here on lot 2.

Jim Mann stated, its right here, Don.

Bob Gross stated, right here’s the building.

Don Ward stated, oh okay.

Jim Mann stated, it shows that straight line.

Bob Gross stated, the skate park is approximately going to be up here.

Don Ward stated, yea.

Bob Gross stated, and that’s not going to be a building it’s just…

Don Ward stated, yea it’s going to be an opening.

Bob Gross stated, opening yea.

Don Ward asked, didn’t we, we had a recommendation that didn’t we, Denny that if lot 2 was sold it had to be sold as part of the rest of the, I forgot my…

Denny Sterrett stated, it should be with this.

Director Weaver stated, yea I think you’re talking about the minutes from the tech meeting, committee meeting.

Don Ward stated, yea, yea.

Director Weaver stated, and those are with your subdivision, that’s with your subdivision information.

Don Ward stated, I didn’t even look it over there.

Director Weaver stated, you should have a copy of it.

Attorney Altman stated, but that would be in the file below that…

Bob Gross stated, no I think Don is referring to is the building on lot 2 extends over the railroad onto the property to the south and so there was a thought that maybe there should be a condition for lot 2 if it was ever sold that it couldn’t be sold separately from the other uh, or the other possibility would be if they wanted to tear that down or actually acquire the railroad right-of-way that’s in there so there’s some other possibilities there and I’m not sure that we want to get into that here with the rezoning or the subdivision or…

Don Ward stated, maybe not into that yet because we’re, this is just for lot 1 right now, right.

Bob Gross stated, right.

Don Ward stated, we’ll do that later, do it later.

Dennis Sterrett asked, subdivision, it’s not really lot 1 yet right?

Bob Gross stated, no.

President Anderson stated, no.

Bob Gross stated, it’s, it would only be after the subdivision be approved that this would be done.

President Anderson asked, any other questions? Anybody in the audience have any questions about the request?

Attorney Altman stated, this would be for the City of Monticello to the Parks Department developing this right Mr. Billue?

Mitch Billue stated, correct, yea.

Attorney Altman stated, and um, obviously it’d be also subject to the approval of the subdivision that is later on in our agenda because you can’t rezone something that isn’t right now. We can do so conditionally is what we can do.

President Anderson stated, that would be conditional on the rezoning that the subdivision pass. That’s coming up a little bit later.

Attorney Altman stated, right.

President Anderson stated, okay.

Dennis Sterrett stated, sounds like we’re doing them backwards to me.

President Anderson asked, any other questions? I’d say let’s go ahead and vote with that condition then.

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the City of Monticello for their action.


#967 Floyd & Janice Lee Fultz; The property is located on 1.50 acres, Out SW cor SE SW 29-27-3, in Union Township, located West of Monticello at 1320 Hanawalt Road.

Violation: There is an existing kennel on the property without proper zoning or an approved Special Exception.

Request: They are requesting to rezone from R-2 to A-1.

President Anderson asked, do we have anybody here representing that request? Want to come forward and state your name and what you’re wanting to do on that?

Floyd Fultz stated, my name is Floyd Fultz and I’m wanting to get that zoned out there, dog kennel.

President Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any questions for Mr. Fultz at all?

Don Ward asked, how is this going to change from what the last one was? You requested the whole property last time, you’re just requesting the north end?

Floyd Fultz stated, yes.

Director Weaver stated, the County Commissioners recommended that he try to just rezone the back half of the property. The back portion of the property.

Don Ward asked, so then he’s allowed to have as many dogs as he wants?

Director Weaver stated, no, he’ll still have to go through a Special Exception if the rezoning’s approved.

Don Ward stated, for a kennel.

Director Weaver stated, for a kennel.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, how do you rezone 1 piece of property 2 different zonings?

President Anderson stated, it would be, he’d have to subdivide it I would think.

Director Weaver stated, well we have a legal description for the portion that he’s wanting to do, it has been done in the past.

President Anderson stated, really.

Director Weaver stated, that’s all I can tell you.

President Anderson asked, any other commissioner got a question about this? Anybody in the audience have any questions about this request at all? If so you want to come forward and state your name. You want to go ahead and sit down Floyd.

Sue Smith stated, I’m Sue Smith, I’m an adjoining neighbor. Coon dogs are not pleasant neighbors and he does not live out there, that’s what’s so important because nobody controls them. I beg you please no, thank you.

President Anderson asked, anybody else?

Don Pauken stated, yea I’m Don Pauken, I live at 1187 Hanawalt and approximately 1300’ from the proposed kennel and the, I spoke last time well I’ll bring you sort of up to date, uh, these dogs bark sometimes at night for hours at a time. During the summertime it’s very, it’s very much a nuisance, uh, I don’t live adjoining it and however it’s still a nuisance and it keeps you awake at night if your trying to sleep with your windows open and uh, it goes on not only during the daytime but obviously at night, 2:00, 3:00 in the morning and it’s a general nuisance. Now I also mentioned that this is mainly along Hanawalt it’s all residential and the, even though this is not a obvious occupation, in house occupation type of thing, it is under the in house occupation type of thing, it’s a nuisance and they say you can’t have anything as a nuisance around a residential areas and this is basically a residential area. Uh, the change that is being suggested here moves it, moves the kennel about a few feet to the north and uh, obviously it’s not going to change the noise level any and I recommend that you also turn this one down. I’m against it and some of the other neighbors also even though they’re not here have expressed the same thing that I am expressing here tonight, thank you.

President Anderson asked, commissioners want to comment on that at all? You got any questions for Mr. Fultz or anything?

Don Ward stated, well I don’t think anything has changed from last time it’s just move the line a little bit, 10 dogs are too many dogs and it residential in my opinion and I don’t think it should be approved so, whatever the rest of you think, I only have 1 vote.

President Anderson stated, I’d say lets go ahead and vote then.

The results of the vote were as follows: 1 affirmative and 8 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.


#325 N. J. Properties II, LLC; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as Jordan Subdivision, on 2.344 acres, OUT N/S SE SW 28-27-3. The property is located in the City of Monticello at 821 N. First Street. Tabled from November 10, 2008.

President Anderson stated, and this was splitting the property we talked about in the rezoning were just rezoned contingent on this. Do we have anybody representing that request? State your name for the record.

Bob Gross stated, yes, my names Bob Gross from RW Gross and Associates. Um, again you know we just talked about this property. I think regarding the subdivision though we are going to ask the BZA for a request for a variance and the variance is because the subdivision ordinance requires 250’ of frontage and this lot will not have 250’ of frontage on this street. This lot will have 268’ and this lot will have almost, well its 94’ almost. We think that still serves adequate access to this lot especially since they’ve got railroad access as well.

President Anderson asked, so we would have to make this contingent on that the variance would be granted then on…

Bob Gross stated, yes.

Director Weaver stated, this is only coming to you tonight for primary approval.

Bob Gross stated, right.

President Anderson stated, okay, secondary.

Attorney Altman stated, but still primary ought to be contingent upon that Doc, you’re exactly right.

President Anderson asked, commissioners have any questions about that? Don do you have any questions about what you were, the problem you have with that building?

Don Ward stated, well I thought the lot 2 shouldn’t be allowed to be sold unless it’s sold as part of the remaining tract unless they tear the building apart and split it up. But even that it’d have to go through the BZA.

Bob Gross stated, or acquire the railroad.

Don Ward asked, huh?

Bob Gross stated, or acquire the railroad property.

Don Ward stated, yea, they have not, is there any proof that the railroad’s been deeded over or…

Bob Gross stated, well the railroad does own that in fee, there is a deed on that property.

Don Ward stated, so it’s there’s.

Bob Gross stated, yes.

Don Ward stated, I think that condition has to be on there somewhere.

President Anderson stated, with a condition that they either get it zoned down or…

Don Ward stated, or…

President Anderson stated, sell to the other…

Don Ward stated, and they still have to go through the BZA, right, because you don’t have the 250’ frontage.

Director Weaver stated, right.

Bob Gross stated, correct.

Don Ward stated, so…

Bob Gross stated, but that’s the only variance we’re requesting would be the frontage variance for the subdivision. I assume that if they came back and had to do something to the building and they needed a variance they’d go to the BZA for that.

President Anderson stated, actually that would be a non, well once you get the variance it would be a buildable lot though wouldn’t it.

Some one stated, um hum.

President Anderson asked, what would you like to see on that?

Don Ward stated, well the BZA is going to handle it so maybe we don’t have to.

Gerald Cartmell stated, oh you and the city pass the buck huh.

Don Ward stated, well that’s not a bad idea, but I thought the condition ought to be on there that it has to be sold with the other parcel or we’d have to put in some conditions that if they remove the building or split the building or acquire the railroad right-of-way that it could be done differently.

President Anderson stated, but that would be with a variance anyway.

Don Ward asked, what?

President Anderson stated, that would be with a variance, we wouldn’t have to put that conditional on ours or do we want that condition on what we’re doing here right now.

Don Ward asked, well should it be on ours or should the BZA put it on there? I think it ought to be on ours the way I see it.

Attorney Altman stated, I think so too, Don.

Dave Scott asked, if that was subdivided is there just a way that you can marry lot 2 to whatever this other lot is here?

Bob Gross stated, no cause it’s not contingent or contiguous, I’m sorry.

Dave Scott stated, okay.

Bob Gross stated, it’s not contiguous.

Mike Smolek asked, and you’re checking into the railroad?

Bob Gross asked, what about it?

Mike Smolek stated, your checking into the railroad to see whose property that is or…

Bob Gross stated, the railroad owns that.

Mike Smolek stated, the railroad owns that, that’s spur is dead though right?

Bob Gross stated, I don’t think anybody’s used it, it’s still there.

Mike Smolek stated, it doesn’t go through 3rd Street though right, it stops there at NIPSCO?

President Anderson stated, but we could put on ours…

Dennis Sterrett stated, the rails are on 3rd Street.

Mike Smolek stated, the rails are on…

Dennis Sterrett stated, on 1st Street I mean.

Bob Gross stated, um hum.

Mitch Billue stated, I think, pardon me if I’m wrong I think currently it’s been abandoned to Hanawalt and I think Hanawalt to the north the rail line…

Mike Smolek stated, is still active.

Mitch Billue stated, is still a fertilizer plant.

Mike Smolek stated, right because Farm Service still uses that tract to bring in fertilizer.

Mitch Billue stated, right, so but I think you know I’ve heard I won’t say that, I’ve heard that they might be abandoning the railroad from there so but that’s I don’t know how long that’s, so, so Hanawalt north is still legally active.

Bob Gross stated, but they still own it…

Mike Smolek stated, but the spur off of this right here has 2 rail lines right.

Mitch Billue stated, I don’t know I just know that there it comes off and goes over and then…

Director Weaver stated, I don’t think that spur is completely there anymore.

Mike Smolek stated, that’s what I’m trying to figure out.

Director Weaver stated, I think, I think it’s only there at the road, from what I saw today…

Mike Smolek stated, it’s right there where it crosses behind what used to be Pizza King and all that, that’s the line you’re talking about but there used to be a spur that come in through RCA and went up to Nipsco.

Director Weaver stated, right.

Mike Smolek stated, that is not there, no more right.

Director Weaver stated, it is still…

Dennis Sterrett stated, the rails are there.

Director Weaver stated, it is still at the road. You do still cross it when you cross the road but it’s not going through that building anymore because I made a point to look.

Don Ward stated, well they changed that many years ago when they put the docks on the outside, I think that’s when it happened but I’m not sure, um, that’s a long time ago probably 40 years ago, more than that 45.

Dennis Sterrett stated, we got a, I think it was a 77 photo we looked at that still had, it showed the boxcars sitting right by 1st Street.

Director Weaver stated, yea.

Dennis Sterrett stated, that was a loading dock next to 1st Street and you can see railroad cars going into the building so it used to go through the building.

Attorney Altman stated, I’d certainly recommend you putting it with the condition…

President Anderson stated, yea.

Attorney Altman stated, on the plat.

President Anderson stated, contingent on either removing the building, right…

Attorney Altman stated, on lot #1, or 2.

Jim Mann stated, or combining with…

President Anderson stated, or combining with either the railroad or the other property, the remaining property.

Jim Mann stated, it would have to be the matter of the railroad.

President Anderson stated, contingent on the variance too though.

Bob Gross stated, that’s an issue with the railroad the way I see it.

Jim Mann stated, because that’s where it’s touching.

Bob Gross asked, I mean what if you had a building that was over a property line as it is now?

President Anderson asked, do what?

Bob Gross stated, what if you had a building that was over a property line I mean that’s kind of what this situation is although he probably has a lease or an agreement over the railroad.

Don Ward asked, but do they? They don’t have any agreement so the railroad can say…

Bob Gross stated, I don’t know if they do or not.

Mike Smolek stated, this has got to be the property line.

Don Ward stated, you know it’s our building.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, that’s what they’re wanting.

Don Ward stated, what’s over the track.

Bob Gross stated, well…

Don Ward stated, what’s over their right-of-way is their building, right.

Bob Gross stated, it could be.

Don Ward stated, if somebody couldn’t come up with an agreement that shows that they had the right to put it there.

Bob Gross stated, right.

Dennis Sterrett asked, who owns these 2 lots now?

Bob Gross stated, um, NJ Properties II, LLC.

Dennis Sterrett asked, so this lot 2 building really goes with Lafayette National Bank property?

Bob Gross stated, no that property is now NJ Properties II, LLC as well. At the time we did the plat it was not.

Dennis Sterrett stated, they say you could turn around and sell lot 2 to Lafayette Bank. Well that building goes clear down here. I mean they actually are using it I guess unless he’s renting it out or something.

Jim Mann asked, is it inherent in this situation that whoever wants to do something with that lot’s going to have to deal with the railroad itself?

Bob Gross stated, that’s what I would think.

Jim Mann stated, that’s inherent in this whole process I mean you know we can stick somebody but the reality of it is…

Bob Gross stated, if they wanted to do a, get a building permit or whatever, sure they’re going to have to deal with the setback on that line or whatever it is.

Jim Mann stated, so, that’s what that is, the piece that’s in the arch, that’s what we’re talking about.

Bob Gross stated, yea.

Mitch Billue stated, I don’t how far the building actually goes across, I’m not…

Bob Gross stated, yea it’s just connected to the building that’s on the other property.

Jim Mann asked, is that what this is meant to show Bob that the building goes as far as that line, is that what…

Don Ward stated, it goes past it.

Bob Gross stated, yea it goes past it.

Jim Mann stated, so it goes right about, it looks like…

Don Ward stated, so the railroad went right through the building.

President Anderson stated, let’s make this contingent on the variance for lot 2 being passed and either taking the building down or purchase the right-of-way from the railroad or sell it along with the other, how big is the other property that’s left after that?

Don Ward stated, well it goes down to Hanawalt, it’s pretty good size.

Bob Gross stated, I really don’t know.

Mitch Billue stated, I’d say over 5 acres anyway.

Bob Gross stated, I would think.

Don Ward stated, the trouble is it’s not contiguous, that’s the problem it’s not contiguous with the, there’s a piece of land between the 2, the railroad right-of-way between…

President Anderson stated, so actually they’d about have to purchase the railroad right-of-way.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, between I don’t see that what are you talking about?

Don Ward asked, huh?

President Anderson stated, they’d have to buy the railroad right-of-way.

Don Ward stated, well…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, you mean on the bottom of lot 2 then.

Don Ward stated, yea on the bottom of lot 2, what I recommended was if they want to do anything with lot 2, if they want to sell it they have to sell it with the land south of it but they’re not contiguous, it makes it more complicated.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, that’s why the lines there because the railroad owns a slice on that curve.

Don Ward stated, yea they own 20 or 30’ through there, 25’ whatever it is.

Jim Mann asked, so do you add that as, is that a part of the stipulation then Don that you’re talking about?

Don Ward stated, yea it makes it a little, if they were contiguous it would be a lot easier though to explain what to do but being not contiguous I’m not sure it’s proper to make them sell it with the other one because they don’t own the strip in between.

Dave Scott asked, but if we didn’t put these conditions on here what’s the worst thing that could happen?

Don Ward stated, well…

Jim Mann stated, the issue is with the owner of the property that has it currently split with the right-of-way that’s the issue, they have to, I mean whatever happens there in some future event is theirs, that’s their challenge, really.

Bob Gross stated, same as today…

Dave Scott stated, yea really.

Bob Gross stated, because it’ll be before or after we do that subdivision, it’s going to be the issue.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, so is it, I mean before this is it actually 2 lots right now?

Bob Gross stated, no.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, so it’s all 1 lot with a railroad spur in the middle of it?

Bob Gross stated, well no, this is 1 parent tract right here.

Several stated, right.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, and then there’s a parent tract below.

Bob Gross stated, and then this is another deed and then he’s got another deed, and another deed.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, okay.

Mike Smolek stated, which at one time it was probably all 1 piece till they put the railroad through it.

Bob Gross stated, somehow cut up, yea, yea.

Jim Mann asked, there wasn’t anything in here about the railroad per say was there, in any of the documentation, Diann?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t believe so.

Jim Mann stated, not really, okay, yea.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, but the railroad owns the spur.

Jim Mann asked, what did this document have to do with…

Director Weaver stated, that might be the only one.

Bob Gross stated, that’s all we got.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, that’s what you found is that there is a deed…

Jim Mann stated, Monticello Industrial Association.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, most the time they’d put it in at your expense.

Bob Gross stated, typically a spur would be an easement.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, right.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yea I believe that’s the agreement.

Jim Mann asked, well Denny what does that tell us, that document exactly?

Gerald Cartmell stated, nobody can read it.

Jim Mann stated, well I, yea I need more than my but…

Gerald Cartmell stated, you need an attorney 100 years old to read it.

Dennis Sterrett stated, it says it conveys and warrants to C.I.& L.

Some one stated, 1919.

Jim Mann stated, so is…

Dennis Sterrett stated, it’s a warranty deed.

Jim Mann stated, okay.

President Anderson asked, do the commissioners got any suggestions on how we want to handle this, let them worry about it later?

Don Ward stated, one of the things is they’d have to remove the building back for a minimum setback, would they not.

Bob Gross stated, which is 0 on industrial, is it not?

Director Weaver stated, I was thinking that it was.

Don Ward asked, its 0 setback?

Bob Gross stated, um hum.

Don Ward stated, oh we don’t have to do that though.

Mike Smolek stated, so we’re just basically trying to split it so the City can have the north part of that.

Bob Gross stated, exactly, and whether we do, whether we divide that or not…

President Anderson stated, and then on lot.

Mike Smolek stated, and then LLJ or whatever properties in…

Jim Mann stated, I guess that’s where I’m, you know…

Mike Smolek stated, Jordan’s are going to keep the other half of it.

Don Ward stated, why don’t we make a condition it has to be sold with lot 1.

Bob Gross stated, I don’t think we’ll be getting a skate park then.

President Anderson stated, if you sold the lot 1 you still got the problem on it.

Director Weaver stated, the side setback is 10’.

President Anderson asked, what?

Director Weaver stated, 10’ for the side setback.

President Anderson stated, except the City would have the problem then.

Dave Scott stated, if that thing would burn down and they come in for a permit to rebuild it how would they do that over the top of that?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, the building is still there it goes over the railroad tract.

Don Ward stated, yea it’s still there.

Gerald Cartmell stated, couldn’t do it.

Don Ward stated, they have to have a 10’ setback so they’d have to cut through the building and take 10’ off of it.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, both sides.

Don Ward stated, well one side doesn’t go all the way to the line, the lot line, the north side.

Mitch Billue asked, be what 24?

Don Ward stated, but then…

Several Board Members are talking at once.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, the other tract.

Mike Smolek asked, what’s that zoned right now?

Director Weaver stated, I-1.

Mike Smolek asked, so before the city can do anything they got to run tests on it and make sure it’s safe to do anything with?

Director Weaver stated, I don’t deal with that part of it Mike.

Mike Smolek stated, a question…

Attorney Altman stated, I think something like that’s going to…

Mike Smolek stated, something’s going to have to happen because…

Mitch Billue stated, I don’t’ know about that I, we’re getting the other side of where the factory’s at, probably not, I don’t know.

Mike Smolek stated, you’re in a grass area over there and that’s…

Mitch Billue stated, I used to play football right there.

Gerald Cartmell stated, yea I know.

Mike Smolek stated, as far as I can remember it’s never been disturbed but you never know.

Denny Sterrett stated, where they had the incinerators, they had incinerators.

Mike Smolek stated, it was over there on the corner somewhere.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, south part of lot 1.

Dave Scott asked, if we subdivide this what changes it from what it is right now?

President Anderson stated, it makes lot 1 awful nice and lot 2 the same problem.

Attorney Altman stated, pretty well said.

Don Ward stated, well if there’s a 10’ minimum setback to sell that lot you’re going to have to tear down that building at least 10’ off of 2 sides.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, if you subdivide it you’ve automatically changed it haven’t you?

Don Ward asked, does it not?

Bob Gross asked, huh, I’m sorry.

Don Ward asked, doesn’t it go clear to the railroad on the, to the property line on the railroad side, does the building go that far?

Bob Gross asked, on the railroad side?

Don Ward stated, yea.

Bob Gross stated, I don’t think it goes quite up to the building, or to the property line.

Don Ward stated, yea I see that up here.

Bob Gross stated, yea it stops here.

Don Ward stated, yea it’s this corner that’s close, and then what’s it do follow down along here?

Bob Gross stated, no it hits south from there.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, it goes straight south, see the line.

Don Ward stated, oh this goes.

Jim Mann stated, the park itself has done something.

Bob Gross stated, you probably have an aerial photo, don’t you.

Jim Mann stated, I might say that the City’s been perusing for quite some time. Um, we had, we had hoped that this site would have been available way back a few years that was adjacent to another piece of currently existing city property that serves the parks depart, well things didn’t work out there for a variety of reasons and the master plan for the city does call for park development to go north and many of you probably know a lot of the city park property now is at the south end of town so this does fit within the park plan that was developed and adopted by not only the parks department but of course the City so you know this does fit with the ideas that were generated from citizens and those that are experts in that area so um, I guess as far as you know I think we’re grappling with what we do for stipulation but I think inherent in the property ownership, whoever’s willing to deal with any development that property’s going to have to deal with the railroad and that in itself is their challenge um, I don’t know if this Board is in, we have to create more challenges that is a challenge in itself for the property owner.

Mike Smolek asked, if that gets divided out does it have to be rezoned then to put the skate park in there?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Mike Smolek stated, so…

President Anderson stated, we all ready did that in the beginning.

Mike Smolek stated, okay so I guess that’s the part I abstained from? I missed that part of the meeting then.

Jim Mann stated, that was the B-2 designation.

Bob Gross stated, right.

President Anderson stated, contingent on his zoning being passed or this subdivision being passed.

Mike Smolek asked, so what would the 2nd lot be good for then, you couldn’t do anything I-2 in that lot, it’s not big enough then is it or are they both B-2 now?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, no just the one.

Director Weaver stated, no the request for the rezoning was just for lot 1.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, but did that automatically, if we subdivide it does that automatically put lot 2 out of compliance if they try to do anything in there. That zoning's gone because of the lot size.

Director Weaver stated, I think it meets the minimum lot size requirements it’s just not the width.

Don Ward stated, just the front frontage here.

Director Weaver stated, right.

President Anderson stated, and their going for a variance on that.

Jim Mann stated, and if they, if the owner secures the deed with the railroad then that changes the entire complexion of the balance of that property going southbound.

President Anderson stated, but then they didn’t need a variance for building setbacks?

Bob Gross stated, no, it’s the same owner.

Jim Mann stated, no it’s the same owner.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, but it’s a different lot.

Jim Mann stated, well that’s, that’s correct Bob that, this is not accurate the way this reads off initially.

Bob Gross stated, that’s correct, at the time we did the plat that’s who had it but they have since changed it to NJ Properties II, LLC.

Gerald Cartmell stated, oh, okay yea.

Jim Mann stated, same people.

Bob Gross stated, which is…

Mike Smolek stated, but you’re saying if we make them sell lot 2 with this part down here you don’t think that would go, did I understand that right.

Bob Gross stated, no, I don’t see that as a problem.

President Anderson stated, but they’d still have to do something with the railroad right-of-way.

Mike Smolek stated, right but at least that would try to keep that chunk together.

President Anderson stated, we can put that contingent on here that if they sell with that other and then work with the railroad right-of-way. You want to do that?

Don Ward stated, well I don’t like to nail it too tight and yet it’s just a spur is all it is, it’s just a hangnail out there.

Bob Gross asked, could I make a recommendation or maybe spill out a thought here?

President Anderson stated, give us a suggestion.

Mike Smolek stated, you’ve worked with them more then we have.

Bob Gross stated, okay, well what about the possibility of just saying that any changes to that lot would be contingent upon meeting the building code, setback requirements, whatever they would be. Isn’t that what you’re looking for is the building setback on that line?

Don Ward stated, yea, yea that’s yea.

Bob Gross stated, rather than tying it to who’s got to buy what and so if there’s a change…

Don Ward stated, well if it was contiguous I would definitely needs to be sold with the other part but that railroad being, owning that strip through there makes it…

Bob Gross stated, we can’t make it contiguous.

Don Ward stated, can’t make it contiguous so it fouls things up.

Bob Gross stated, right. But what we can say is that it will be required to adhere to the building code requirements if anything’s done differently on that lot in the future.

Don Ward stated, well that would have to be anyway, would it not.

Several Board members are talking at once.

Don Ward stated, we don’t really need to state that, do we, it’d have to be that.

Dave Scott asked, who are we trying to protect here, I mean the next buyer of this property?

Don Ward stated, huh.

Dave Scott asked, who are we trying to protect here, the next buyer of lot 2?

Don Ward stated, well or us or the whole area, we don’t know what’ll happen to the area. Industrial that’s a very small piece of ground for an industrial site.

Dave Scott stated, yea, I’m just sitting here thinking what happen, I mean it’s there now just like it is.

Don Ward stated, yea.

Dave Scott stated, and we’re going to make it smaller I guess is, the only thing we’re doing wrong.

Don Ward stated, that’s all we’re doing, we’re making it smaller, making that tract smaller.

Dennis Sterrett stated, we’re making it smaller and less appealing.

Dave Scott stated, yea.

Don Ward stated, breaking it into 2.

Dave Scott stated, we’re probably making it into a…

Greg Bossaer stated, that’s someone else’s issue.

Jim Mann stated, that’s what I tried to convey is that it’s a property ownership question.

Greg Bossaer stated, right.

Jim Mann stated, you know in the grappling with what would happen in the future you know who knows I mean.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, and the property owner’s the one that’s requesting to split it and make it small.

Jim Mann stated, yea the property owner’s involved in this process so it’s not like their…

Gerald Cartmell stated, and really what they mean is sometimes the…

Jim Mann stated, or he very well would understand the dynamic of what’s going on here or one would sure hope so. He’s been very much involved in the process here.

President Anderson asked, so you want to stay clear out of it and just say contingent on the variance for lot 2 that they’ll be working for further plans.

Don Ward stated, well that’s one way to do it let the BZA…

Greg Bossaer stated, yea.

Don Ward stated, deal with it. You don’t like that?

Mike Smolek stated, well I mean cause you don’t want to get something in there that’s not going to be utilized and create problems if somebody doesn’t take care of that. I’m not going to say that’s happening or going to happen but with kids and everything at this park area and this park not being taken care of it could become an issue so you want to make sure that ground could be utilized or picked back up somewhere else and I know Jordan would do that if we gave him that, I don’t want to back him into a corner where he can’t do nothing with it, that’s my concern.

Don Ward stated, that’s what I’m thinking, I don’t want to do that either. I don’t want, I don’t want restrictions on there that screw things up in the future. I think that, I think the logical move would be if you sold either one you’d sell both. In other words, it goes as an industrial tract, you wouldn’t sell one separate.

Mike Smolek stated, but he’s not here to ask that question to.

Don Ward stated, well no but he couldn’t answer it anyway till he gets a buyer so.

Mike Smolek stated, no that’s…

Don Ward stated, I mean really. I suppose you could put something small in there but the BZA is going to have to approve it whatever you do. If it were contiguous I’d definitely say they have to be sold together but that strip through there owned by the railroad…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, but we can’t, you can’t subdivide that and put that in the noncompliance instantly, right?

Don Ward stated, right, it’s out of compliance all ready.

Attorney Altman stated, but it doesn’t, by subdividing it doesn’t make it further out of compliance, it is, is like Don said…

President Anderson stated, the frontage on it.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, the front and that’s what their talking about now is the frontage.

Attorney Altman stated, but they’re going to get a variance on that, talking about that building…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, well they’re going to apply for one.

Gerald Cartmell stated, you guys sound awful serious that you’re going to get that.

President Anderson stated, that’s what I said, maybe.

Don Ward stated, right, you guys may not go along with it.

Gerald Cartmell stated, yea.

President Anderson stated, so I’d say let’s just say contingent on the variance that they’re after on lot 2 and then they can take it from there. Want to do that? I think we’re taking too much time on this, personally.

Dennis Sterrett stated, okay the technical committee had another question on the ownership of 1st Street.

Bob Gross stated, 1st Street is owned by Jordan.

Dennis Sterrett asked, by Jordan?

Bob Gross stated, um hum and the City is looking at working with him on acquiring that.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, the full length or just lot l.

Bob Gross stated, that I don’t know, I can’t tell you, I don’t know.

Jim Mann stated, honest I can’t either Dave. I know they’ve had a discussion on it but I don’t know the details.

Bob Gross stated, yea, that’s, I really don’t know the details of it either, I just know that that’s in, hopefully in the works.

President Anderson asked, does anybody in the audience have any questions about this rezoning or this subdivision?

Dave Scott stated, it’s just over my head, I shouldn’t even vote.

President Anderson stated, so I’d say primary approval shall be granted upon the receipt of additional condition this request by the commission which would be contingent on the variance for the frontage on lot 2, right, is that all we’re going to put on there, anybody want to add something else?

Director Weaver asked, did you check into the ownership with the road?

Bob Gross stated, yea, we just talked about that.

Director Weaver stated, sorry about that.

Bob Gross stated, that is, Jordan does own that.

Director Weaver stated, okay.

Dave Scott asked, does that make a difference?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, well if the city buys the north part that just stops that street.

Attorney Altman stated, I expect that easement in there would be…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, if the city buys 1st Street that he owns on lot 1, of course I guess it’s a private road now just everybody uses it as a street.

Attorney Altman stated, I think by user it’d be a public way.

Don Ward stated, yea, I do too.

Attorney Altman stated, very much a public way by right of user.

Don Ward stated, especially as…

Dave Rosenbarger asked, but if he owns it and sells it can they block it off?

Attorney Altman stated, no.

Bob Gross stated, no.

Don Ward stated, you got a tough time ever shutting that down.

Attorney Altman stated, excuse me I wouldn’t say you couldn’t try but I think the answer Dave is no.

Bob Gross stated, it’d be a prescriptive easement.

Attorney Altman stated, very difficult time.

Jim Mann stated, I couldn’t see us doing that Dave, I don’t know why we…

Bob Gross stated, they have a good working relationship right now, I think the city maintains it.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, right.

Jim Mann stated, I don’t know what reason there would be to do it like that. That would, you know you have an existing street that’s been there for who knows how long and the…

Dave Scott stated, better chance the city would keep it open then he might decide, but like Jerry said he probably can’t.

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think you can leave it open…

Dave Scott stated, but that doesn’t change the…

Attorney Altman sated, I don’t think it changes the equation very much here other then it helpful to note that.

Dave Scott stated, then I guess the question is the standard of Subdivision Control Ordinance been met and with that a being water, sewage…

Attorney Altman stated, frontage, etcetera.

Dave Scott stated, right, the variance really the only thing missing is the frontage.

Don Ward stated, I think this primary approval should be granted upon receipt of additional conditions.

President Anderson stated, I think you got to go for the 3rd one down, prior approval should be granted by receipt of this.

Don Ward stated, right, I don’t know we can do anything else, maybe we can.

Jim Mann stated, and that would be…

President Anderson stated, that could be just a contingent on the frontage on the variance on the front.

Don Ward stated, right. Right on BZA.

President Anderson stated, for the BZA.

Don Ward stated, then we can look at it as primary, if they go then primary approval would be automatic.

President Anderson stated, all ready granted, yeah.

Dennis Sterrett stated, so, so I’m not ready. Couldn’t he dedicate 1st Street with this subdivision, I mean if you don’t lot 2’s landlocked.

Gerald Cartmell stated, that’s good thinking.

Bob Gross stated, well but at this point he still owns that.

Don Ward asked, does he own 1st Street all the way through from Hanawalt to Fisher?

Bob Gross stated, I think down to Ireland.

Mitch Billue stated, yea, I don’t think he owns all the way through.

Don Ward stated, just from Ireland north of…

Bob Gross stated, Ireland north.

Don Ward stated, to Fisher.

Bob Gross stated, I think, yea.

Don Ward stated, well.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I guess if he wanted to sell lot 2 he’d have to give them an easement or something.

Bob Gross stated, yea I don’t think he could make it landlocked.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I think the sale…

Don Ward stated, well why not dedicate the street at least in front of along adjacent to this subdivision, dedicate Fisher Street 50’ wide from there on and then that only leaves that small strip from Ireland.

Jim Mann asked, do you want to make that one of the conditions?

Don Ward stated, yea, I think it ought to be, I think it should be done now, in fact it probably should be, it should take it all the way to Ireland Street the whole thing make it part of the dedication, makes a lot more work for you but and then it’s done. We don’t have to worry about it. Just make it a 50’ street.

Jim Mann stated, Mitch you know if there’s been any discussion on that at all.

Mitch Billue stated, I think the mayor had that discussion with Dave and based on how things go there’s a good possibility that this will become a road all the way through but nothings been…

Jim Mann stated, formalized.

Mitch Billue stated, formalized.

Jim Mann stated, I guess the point is it wouldn’t be a brand new topic to the city or Mr. Jordan, it’s been discussed.

Don Ward stated, well what’s dedicated then the owners rid of it, he’s rid of maintenance, he’s rid of responsibility, liability everything else. So to me it’s an advantage to him to get rid of it.

Dave Scott stated, but I thought Jerry said it didn’t make any difference, it’s all ready been…

Attorney Altman stated, no, no there is a difference but I think the use does dictate it being continued to use.

Dennis Sterrett stated, I remember a gate in front of it once, I believe across 1st Street.

Director Weaver stated, um hum, I think you’re right.

Gerald Cartmell asked, how long ago was that Denny?

Dennis Sterrett stated, back in the 70’s probably.

President Anderson asked, you going to rename it Jordan Street then?

Don Ward stated, oh I don’t think we’d do that.

Bob Gross asked, do we have a Ward Street?

Don Ward stated, no we don’t want that either. Why don’t we just leave it 1st Street.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, the First Street.

Don Ward stated, the First Street.

Dave Scott asked, so how do we vote here.

Dennis Sterrett stated, make it contingent on…

President Anderson stated, let’s see a show of hands if you want to add that condition. Raise your right hand if you want to add that condition to the…

Several stated, the street.

Jim Mann stated, that would be fine, I think.

President Anderson asked, we adding that, raise your hands again so we know who all wants to do it. Here we got enough, of course Don doesn’t know, your other right hand Don.

Attorney Altman stated, okay, your right Doc.

Don Ward stated, depends on whether you’re facing me or looking back.

President Anderson stated, okay we want to add that to.

Mike Smolek stated, so contingent on variance the first of lot 2 and the dedication to First Street to the City, is that what we’re saying?

Attorney Altman stated, yes, I think that’s exactly it.

President Anderson stated, okay, this has got to secondary sometime too doesn’t it?

Director Weaver stated, right.

President Anderson stated, except that would be after the, find out if he dedicates the street and they get a variance.

Mike Smolek asked, when this gets all pushed through and stuff when do you guys plan on starting it?

Mitch Billue stated, as soon…

Mike Smolek stated, as soon we get this all pushed through.

Mitch Billue stated, yea you guys get done doing something.

Some one stated, makes a nice skate park.

Gerald Cartmell stated, makes more work you know that don’t you.

The Primary Approval for a 2 lot subdivision to be known as NJ Properties Subdivision was approved by a vote of 9 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

Attorney Altman stated, primary approval shall be granted upon the receipt of the conditions as required by the commission. The conditions are: #1 That 1st Street be extended and dedicated from Ireland Street to Fisher Street. #2 That BZA approve the 93.87 frontage on lot #2.

Bob Gross stated, thank you.


AMENDMENTS – Zoning Ordinance – Chapter 13

President Anderson stated, you want to explain that to us.

Director Weaver stated, um, I’ve given you the current and the proposed what the changes are, are in red and some of these are just some typographical errors and some of these are changing the wording also I’ve worked with Dave Stimmel on these to make these changes of how we felt like this should be worded, just really minor, minor changes is all that we have done to this. Dave do you have anything you want to add on that?

Dave Stimmel stated, no.

President Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any questions about them?

Attorney Altman stated, I think it cleans up the language quite a bit of being in the enforcement area it would be the area that will be…

President Anderson asked, so there isn’t going to be any “B” any more? Will we change C,D and E to B,C and D?

Director Weaver stated, that’s true. We deleted B and then changed the lettering. Yes.

President Anderson stated, and changed the lettering.

Don Ward stated, well the grammar on Citations isn’t correct. You don’t start a sentence with “Which may”. So that needs corrected.

Director Weaver asked, where are you at Don?

Don Ward stated, on Citations on page 13.2. It says ah, “the Executive Director may issue a warning ticket or citation who commits a zoning violation” and then it starts a new sentence, “which may include the legal owner”. I would put a semi-colon in there.

Director Weaver stated, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, I would to but I would vote to approve this tonight. As it is and then do a semi-colon later. Because I think its close enough that it would support by a quote of law the way it is. Because it is advertised this way and that’s the only thing you can approve.

Don Ward stated, okay, whatever you say. You can leave it the way that it is for all I care.

President Anderson stated, let’s go ahead and vote then.

Attorney Altman stated, announcing the results of the Amendment on Chapter 13 Enforcement, 9 votes cast, 9 votes yes. It will be forwarded on to all of the legislative bodies involved in the ordinance at their next meeting.


President Anderson stated, next would be business. We’ve got somebody. Do you want to come before the board here, or talk to the board. You want to come forward here and say your name.

Woodrow Hamm stated, my name is Woodrow Hamm. I live in Lake Breeze Subdivision #4, south of Buffalo. I was here last month at the meeting. Goes back to the proposed, the ordinance that you guys put on, not bringing trailers in to White County. I think that something, the board needs to change that because its discrimination against a large number of people, including myself. That…

President Anderson stated, you want to state what your lot size is and where you’re at and what you purchased.

Woodrow Hamm stated, it’s in Lake Breeze Subdivision #4. The lots sizes are some where and they’re all different in there. Most of them are around like, 190 wide by 120/150-60 wide and when Lake Breeze was laid out, Echo Trails and probably all, a lot of the other subdivisions around the lake, they were laid out for the older, smaller trailers back in the 60’s or 50’s whenever they laid all of this farm ground out. With the ordinance that you guys put in here some time back and the way the economy is right now those lots don’t meet the requirements to build a big house or something like that in there. I would just like to see you guys grandfather the places that’s got these trailers in there, are zoned for them. Just like I said, Lake Breeze, Echo Trails and I don’t know whether Horse Shoe Bend is some of those others up by Buffalo are, fall in the same category. Probably all up and down the lake, that they’ve got these smaller lots. Like I said before, we have a communist, people can’t afford to buy a big house but if they upgrade to a bigger trailer or a nicer trailer it helps everybody out. I mean, especially the people that are on a fixed incomes, people like that and there’s other ladies in the audience here that want to voice their opinion on this as well. And, uh, I think it should be redone the way it should be for subdivisions and the other properties got the trailer on them should be grandfathered in as well. It’s my own personal opinion on this cause later down the road when all of the weekend warriors come back in here and want to put something in or want to upgrade, then they can’t. It’s going to cause a lot of confusion in my own personal opinion. I mean if you’re laying out like a subdivision or something yeah you could do it…

President Anderson stated, but these were subdivisions for trailers are what they were. Where it wasn’t actually a trailer park that you are talking about. That’s something that we talked about before.

Mike Smolek stated, the ordinance is written as far as when we did it we were talking about new dirt and we didn’t classify that one. When we first started talking about these we were talking about any new subdivisions where trailers have to be classified with the new, what is it, the R-4. We’ve got a lot of trailer, trailer lots that…

President Anderson stated, yeah see he can’t change or upgrade, they can’t upgrade any thing.

Mike Smolek stated, this is what, the third one that we’ve had in 3 months. They can’t do anything and that’s what those lots were made for. I mean, they’re not big enough to put houses on.

Woodrow Hamm stated, new subdivisions like the other people that were in here last month now you can zone that any way that you want to cause like he just said there’s nothing on the property to start with. Now you can zone if for special widths, special square footage of a house now that’s a different story but this lot, this property goes back several decades.

Don Ward stated, yeah, 50 or 60 years.

Mike Smolek stated, isn’t that what you brought up in October about when we were looking at that we were talking more about bare dirt, new construction. But we kind of lumped all of the old stuff together with it.

Woodrow Hamm stated, you know I would say if somebody’s got let’s say a piece of farm ground out here, 1, 2 acres or 5 acres and they want to put a trailer on it or a modular which I mean a manufactured house which falls in this same category. I think it should be you know, something brought up it should be a certain year you know it can’t be all real old stuff, you know, a certain year up. May be inspected or whatever, whatever these guys over here are uh, Dave Anderson or some of these other guys to check the trailer out or the modular out and make sure that it’s up to code for you know…

President Anderson stated, there’s a year date any way.

Mike Smolek stated, its 1980 whatever.

Woodrow Hamm stated, 83 I believe it was last time…

Mike Smolek stated, and that is only White County’s ordinance that is not a State ordinance.

Director Weaver stated, 1981.

Mike Smolek stated, when I looked that up it’s not a State it’s a County. If we could put something in there that the trailer has to be ten years newer than the one that was previously, something that will roll so the trailers are getting upgraded.

President Anderson stated, the only trouble is, he can’t move anything in there so if something happens to his trailer.

Mike Smolek stated, right, right, nobody can move any trailer right now, which basically, because the lots are all to small according to the new ordinances.

President Anderson stated, so that’s something that we’re going to have to work on in that ordinance because I don’t think it’s fair either.

Woodrow Hamm stated, see if they was, there’s a lot of lots in there that don’t have any trailers on them. There’s been trailer there before but they’ve been taken out or something you know put a certain year…

Mike Smolek stated, and some of the issue was septic fields and stuff but now that they’re all getting hooked up to, you know, that needs to be relooked at.

Woodrow Hamm stated, these ladies here wanted to say something.

Don Ward stated, well that was, that came up several years ago when Butterfield Camp.

President Anderson stated, you want to come forward and state your name.

Kristen Gross stated, I’m Kristen Gross and um, our trailer burnt down 3 weeks ago and we had insurance and we had $20,000 coverage and they gave us 6,000 for the trailer. We have been looking around and the only trailers that we can find are the older ones in our price range. The newer ones have been worse than the older ones. We located a trailer here in Monticello, it was a 74 but an older couple bought it when it was 4 years old they had hired a contractor to put a roof on it, you how some trailers if you don’t take care of them the floor rots and it has weak spots. There was no water damage, no weak spots, nothing on the floor and it was the original floor. It was in better shape than the newer one. The old law says, there were conditions on if they inspected and it was up to code then we could move it. Now the new law says there’s no exception.

Don Ward stated, I think we did that because of wiring.

Levera Gross stated, is there, my name’s Levera Gross by the way. Um, is there something that we can do with the old electrical boxes or anything like that too? To get it upgraded?

President Anderson stated, think a lot of it was aluminum wiring in it. Wasn’t that the problem with them?

Don Ward stated, that’s the way I remember it, that it was the wiring that we were concerned about.

Director Weaver stated, I know that 1981, the year is supposedly the year that they upgraded the standards of how they were built. That’s why we have that in the ordinance.

Don Ward stated, right. I remember, that’s what I remember.

Kristen Gross stated, I know it depends on the trailer um, this one has 2 x 3s not 2 x 2s. I mean, I don’t know what your conditions are on how it’s built but it’s not the 2 x 2s. We had a 79 out there and the 74 was built better and it was just in a lot better condition…

President Anderson stated, I don’t think there’s much we can do about that.

Don Ward stated, no there’s not, not unless we change, change our rules. The rules themself.

Mike Smolek stated, yeah.

Kristen Gross asked, would there be, would it be able to go back to with exceptions? Where if it was in good shape and the only thing that was stopping it was wiring then if we wanted to put the money to redo the wiring would we be able to move it?

Don Ward stated, I don’t think so. I don’t think that we can do it under the code. We’d have to make some changes in the code I think to, to do that.

Jim Mann asked, what code exactly are you referring to Don?

Don Ward stated, the new code.

Jim Mann stated, okay. So it boils down to the code that we passed.

Don Ward stated, that we have now accepted. That’s the one that we have to go under.

Jim Mann stated, that’s what I…

Kristen Gross asked, that was the code in August that you passed?

Mike Smolek stated, right, it’s the new Zoning Ordinance.

Jim Mann stated, I think it’s something that we should look at.

Mike Smolek stated, any change that we make we have to publicly notify everybody and that so we can’t make a change tonight at the meeting. It would have to be the next month or whatever.

Kristen Gross stated, we have looked at newer ones we even went to, when we were thinking about moving the 74 and we didn’t know about the change, we went into Area Planning and they said no exceptions except for A-1 which we are. We’re an ag.

Levera Gross stated, we own 3 acres and there’s nothing but farm land around us. My neighbor has a trailer on his property.

Kristen Gross stated, so it’s not that we couldn’t move a trailer where we are. It’s that, um, we talked to a guy that moves trailers in Lafayette and he showed us one.

Levera Gross stated, it was actually an 83.

Kristen Gross asked, it was an 83?

Levera Gross stated, um, hmm.

Kristen Gross stated, and it was in horrible condition but by code it would pass. But for me looking at it, it wouldn’t seem like it should be moved. And then, I just think that there should be exceptions because certain people do take better care of their property than others. And we would be willing to completely change the wire in it by code if we were allowed to pay $2,000 to get it moved because it would be cheaper on, on our part than buying a $15,000 trailer.

President Anderson stated, I don’t know how you would rewire a trailer though. Cheaply.

Don Ward stated, we would have to make some changes here, in the code before we can do anything and do we want to do that.

Attorney Altman stated, best thing…

Gerald Cartmell stated, …electrician and you would have to sign off on it.

Don Ward stated, well, I don’t think we have the authority to do once it’s in the code. Do we?

Some one stated, no.

Attorney Altman stated, but, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change the code.

Jim Mann stated, we have the authority to change the code.

Don Ward stated, yeah we could do that. We could change the code.

Jim Mann stated, we could change the code.

Don Ward stated, some how make it contingent…

Mike Smolek stated, I don’t know if we want to do that.

President Anderson stated, no, I think you would open up a can of worms.

Jim Mann stated, by changing the code it’s a matter of, it’s a matter of how, how you change the code not so much, just talking out loud, you change the code, I think it’s something that you should take a look at rather than just pass on it…

President Anderson stated, I think part of the code is going to have to be changed any way…

Jim Mann stated, because there, I think the point this gentleman was bringing up is there’s areas where it’s the size of the lot.

President Anderson stated, but I don’t them as far as what they need to move in now.

Jim Mann stated, I’m not talking about that.

Don Ward stated, …that’s the problem.

Jim Mann stated, that’s not exactly…

President Anderson stated, …this won’t get done in a month, it won’t get done in two or three months.

Don Ward stated, it will take two or three months, that’s right. At least.

Jim Mann stated, there’s several issues here that I’m, where I’m coming from not specifically your issues.

Kristen Gross stated, um, hmm, yeah.

Jim Mann stated, because of what the gentleman brought up on other…

Don Ward stated, they’re right about one thing, there were many, many lots laid out very small. I was surveying back then. I’ll verify that.

Jim Mann stated, that’s right.

Don Ward stated, there were a lot 50’ wide lots.

President Anderson stated, that’s going have to be something to eventually we, we don’t want those lots but the people who are living on them now have every right to move a new, upgrade what they’re living in but once they’re sold then I don’t know what we’re gonna do about that.

Don Ward stated, well that’s something that we are going to have to look at and maybe come up with a solution.

President Anderson stated, we need this on the record so you are going to have to state your name again.

Woodrow Hamm stated, I, it just, would make it very simple to me, just grandfather the old stuff in. I mean, and if you put a new subdivision in you go with that…

President Anderson stated, that would grandfather that subdivision but you then you still have trouble moving…

Gerald Cartmell stated, it’s grandfathered now.

Woodrow Hamm stated, I mean, you know, maybe not the subdivision but…

President Anderson stated, right now everything is grandfathered that’s on that. It would be something a far as moving, what your going to do with trailers on that from here on out. You know once you’re gone and then that property goes somewhere, I don’t know. It’s something that we’re going to have to talk about.

Kristen Gross stated, if yours burnt down, the one that’s on there is grandfathered but once yours is gone it’s gone. Right?

Several stated, right.

President Anderson stated, we are going to try to change that

Don Ward stated, once it burns down, once it goes past 50% you have to go to the new code.

Woodrow Hamm stated, see that’s discriminating against, against us.

Kristen Gross stated, I understand that, that you want to make the town better but better isn’t always better, in whoever’s eyes. I mean look at the economy the way that it is going now because everybody wanted to be better and, and high priced and it’s crashing. It’s the people that aren’t so wealthy that might keep you going and I think that’s something that should be taken into consideration.

Woodrow Hamm stated, there’s a lot of properties out that that’s got trailers on them. I mean, you guys know White County probably better than I do and there’s trailers stuck everywhere. That’s all I’m asking is grandfather what’s out there in. Then new subdivisions, then that’s a totally different ball game.

Don Ward stated, I don’t know if we can grandfather or not but I think we would have to just rewrite a new section of the code to cover it.

Woodrow Hamm stated, a go back with a certain year of a trailer or whatever that may be…

Jim Mann stated, there has to be some kind of an inspection criteria to deal with it.

Don Ward stated, that’s what will have to be done. It will have to be inspected and approved…

Jim Mann stated, because I appreciate what you are saying…

Don Ward stated, make the code read that way.

Jim Mann stated, some of these, you might have a 70 that was taken care of and well maintained and in good working order and stable and then some one might have had a 90 and they just, it wasn’t taken care of so it’s. That’s the challenge that we have. It’s kind of a situational matter. You know you can’t just lump them all together because of that.

Kristen Gross stated, right.

Jim Mann stated, that’s what we are grappling with is how we would deal with that.

Kristen Gross stated, before, didn’t it have to be inspected if it was, it had to be an 81 or newer with exception it had to be inspected and passed. That was the old law.

Some one stated, yep, that’s the way it was.

Director Weaver stated, that was the old ordinance.

Jim Mann stated, you had a criteria for inspection.

Director Weaver stated, if it was older than 1981 it had to go through a special exception and it had to be inspected.

Kristen Gross stated, and if it was like, like in my exception the 74 is in better shape then it would be passed but you know, some one else wants an older one. I think there should be, is there an inspection on even the newer ones that are moved?

Director Weaver stated, no.

Kristen Gross stated, I think there should be because some of the ones, the newer ones that I’ve seen probably shouldn’t be moved.

Woodrow Hamm stated, I will agree with her on that.

Kristen Gross stated, you're saying move in a 90 that’s a piece of crap and we just assume its okay and then move in a 74 that’s…

Woodrow Hamm stated, I’ve seen some in the 2000 range that’s junk.

Don Ward stated, we’re not looking at the condition of the, of each separate trailer. The situation is what’s approved through the State codes under, when they construct the trailer and if it’s constructed according to the code then we accept it. If the condition of it is bad then you don’t buy it.

Kristen Gross stated, some people don’t have that common sense.

Dave Scott stated, I think you ought to let them, if there’s a lot on there, if there’s a trailer on there then they should have the opportunity to replace it. If there’s a trailer on the lot they ought to have the opportunity to upgrade it to a newer trailer. The only stipulation that we make is that it has to be owner occupied. That’s something that ought to be open for discussion but if uh, like he’s got a 1970 trailer or something on there we give him a certain amount of time to put it back. If they put back within a year then they can put a trailer back on there but the trailer’s still got to meet that standard of a 1981 or something or newer cause you don’t want pulling old trailers in there either.

Woodrow Hamm asked, wasn’t Dave Anderson was inspecting trailers wasn’t he?

Director Weaver stated, no.

Woodrow Hamm asked, who was inspecting them?

Director Weaver stated, Bob Braaksma was at one time.

Dave Scott stated, the problem I have with the inspection thing is I’m not sure who is qualified to do that.

Don Ward stated, well there are people in the business.

Director Weaver stated, A2Z Inspections does them.

Woodrow Hamm stated, I know they’ve got to have the breaker box in them instead of the fuses in them.

Jim Mann stated, there’s a lot of people that would do that, it’s just a matter of how you can…

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing that I can say is you just have to change the ordinance if you’re going to. That’s something you…

Dave Scott stated, the only thing it wouldn’t allow for is which we don’t want them, we want the trailers in our community in the trailer park. Cause we’ve got room for them in there. If somebody goes out here and buys 3 acres and want to put a trailer on there new, that wouldn’t be allowed. That’s something that would have to be discussed also. The way that we do it, if you’ve got a trailer existing on there and it’s, well regardless whether it’s old or not, and you want to pull it off and upgrade it to newer trailer, we allow that but it’s got to be owner occupied. And you’ve got a year to do that.

Don Ward stated, we could also throw in part of the old code that says if it’s older, newer than 19, older than 1981 it’s got to have the inspection approved.

Dave Scott joined in, it’s got to have the inspection.

Don Ward stated, we probably should do it for any trailer that’s brought in. If one burns down or one is destroyed, they want to bring a new one in then it should be inspected. That would be in the code, actually an addition to the code.

Woodrow Hamm stated, there again, when you’re talking about having the acreage that would be discrimination as well.

Dave Scott stated, pardon me.

Woodrow Hamm stated, when you said you couldn’t put a trailer on certain acreage that would be discrimination as well.

Dave Scott stated, well, if, if it doesn’t make any difference, if it this is something, we make them go into trailer parks. If unless it’s an existing property with a trailer on it, if it is then we let them replace, upgrade that with a new one.

Woodrow Hamm stated, so these modulars that are setting all over White County wouldn’t be allowed either.

Dave Scott stated, no, that falls under a different category.

Woodrow Hamm stated, I mean these manufactured homes wouldn’t be allowed either then.

Dave Scott stated, yeah, they would be allowed.

Don Ward stated, because they have a foundation under them.

Kristen Gross asked, now, if some one went to the extreme of taking a mobile home and putting a foundation under it, then would it be allowed?

Jim Mann stated, no, it’s a titled…

Don Ward stated, it has to do with…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, pull togethers are not titled.

Kristen Gross stated, but after the tires and axles are off it wouldn’t technically be…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, it’s still issued a title, State title.

Gerald Cartmell stated, it would have a State title.

Woodrow Hamm stated, it does have a title.

Kristen Gross stated, I just know that when we were going to get a loan, most banks would not give you a loan unless you took the tires and the, the axles off. It had to be on a permanent thing, structure.

Dennis Sterrett stated, that’s because they didn’t want you taking off with it.

Kristen Gross stated, right.

Several are talking at once.

Woodrow Hamm stated, I mean the trailers are not only just here in White County they’re all over the world. All over the United States as far as that goes as far as trailers. They’re putting them everywhere. I mean some of the trailers in California are there was a special on TV are millions of dollars and they are considered a trailer. There’s a trailer park they took apart and they, the frames are still there only they built these elaborate houses around them. They’re still titled as a trailer and they’re worth millions. How far, extreme are you going to go? You know.

Kristen Gross asked, why is it there has to be certain areas of town for the houses allowed, the mobile home is allowed?

Dave Scott stated, because if I spend $200,000 for a house on a lot I don’t want somebody putting a mobile home next to it.

Kristen Gross stated, but some one like me would come along and say, why would any one in their right mind spend $200,000 on a house. And then some one like you would tell me, well why would any body in your right mind spend $6,000 on a house and actually live in it. Different people.

Dave Scott stated, if I invest, if I invest in a home regardless of what the price is I want the integrity and the value of my house up held. That’s why we have all of these laws. Not necessarily me, I’m talking about everybody. And, there’s, a mobile homes got its place. I’m not saying it doesn’t have its place but if somebody spends a lot of money for a house. They don’t want it next, they don’t want it bringing the value of their house down either. Just like you have the right to live in one, they have the right not to have to look at one. You know, we have to balance that.

Kristen Gross stated, yeah, but it kind of tears, but it kind of tears people apart and, and ideas of class. When your kids go to school you try to teach them to acknowledge every one as equals.

Dave Scott stated, I would live in a mobile home. I would live in a mobile home park and I would live in a mobile home.

Woodrow Hamm stated, there’s areas that are close to here that have got hundreds of thousands of dollars of houses setting in a square mile and there’s more trailers setting in that square mile than there are these big houses but these people built these 2,3,4, $500,000 dollar houses right nest to a mobile home.

Dave Scott stated, then they get what they deserve.

Don Ward stated, that doesn’t decrease you as not an equal. It’s an economic thing. It’s all money. Everything’s money.

Kristen Gross stated, and look where money got us. You know, no where.

Don Ward stated, you wouldn’t want to set your trailer out there and have a slaughter house beside you. Would you?

Kristen Gross stated, but if I wanted, if I, if I was the owner of the slaughter house then maybe. I mean there’s different situations for everybody.

Don Ward stated, well if you owned the slaughter house. Well that’s different.

Kristen Gross stated, I mean there’s different situations for everything.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, if I owned the house trailer I would put it by my big house too.

Several are talking at one time.

Don Ward stated, if a man built, if a man set up a subdivision and divided into lots and he wants to sell this to a man that’s going to put up 3 or $400,000 house on it and the guy that’s going to buy it knows he’s gonna put a lot of trailers beside it or modular homes or a house half the size, he’s not going to buy it. He’s going to go somewhere else and buy. So the man that owns the land, he has a right in it too. You know. It’s all about money. It’s not that your vote counts the same as the multimillionaire. It’s only one vote but…

Kristen Gross stated, I just don’t think that it should be.

Dave Scott stated, see and if you go by the law, if you write the ordinance so that if there’s an existing mobile home there on that lot somewhere that you can replace it. If I want to build a house and I build it next to that, that’s my problem.

Don Ward stated, that’s your business. Right.

Dave Scott stated, but if I build the house and then they start bringing mobile homes in next to it. I’m not going to like that.

Don Ward stated, right. You’re not going to.

President Anderson stated, you want to go ahead. State your name again.

Levera Gross stated, I just would like for you guys to look into maybe the exceptions again, 81 with an exception. Cause there is some trailers that older people have lived in and they’ve just taken really, really good condition of. And if it’s about paying for an inspection, then you know, I’m willing to pay for an inspection. Because there’s even 2000s out there that you could fall through the floor that’s how…

Kristen Gross stated, that’s even in houses, it all depends on how you take care of it.

Levera Gross stated, I just, I just think maybe you should go back to…

President Anderson asked, do we have a couple board members here that want to volunteer to look into something like that? I’ve got one here, any body want to help him.

Gerald Cartmell asked, who’s helping? Mike? I’ll help Mike.

Attorney Altman stated, I would be glad to help draft on that.

Jim Mann stated, I can help out.

Don Ward stated, I think we have an idea of what we want.

Kristen and Levera Gross both stated, thank you.

Attorney Altman stated, it’s going to take more than a month now.

Kristen Gross stated, yeah, and I understand that.

Mike Smolek stated, I think the 81 thing had to do with the National Electric Code and they all had to start following those standards.

Attorney Altman stated, it had a lot to do with that. It had a lot to do with that.

President Anderson stated, that old wiring they had… Do we have any other business? Oh, yeah, we’ve got lawyer fees here. Do we have any, do the commissioners have any questions about the lawyer’s fees?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, just clarification, and I don’t remember this Synergy thing but, was that a BZA?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, I didn’t know that we were paying to have the commitments drawn up.

Attorney Altman stated, the only thing is that I put on there that when I was involved that the County seemed they wanted things done and done quickly and, and basically I thought it was a recognized accommodation for them uh, I did that. And prepared what I did. I usually don’t.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, well that’s what I thought. You know, and it’s been a while since I’ve seen one of your bills but I always thought…

Attorney Altman stated, usually don’t, that’s why I put it on there.

Dave Rosenbarger continued, I always thought when somebody asked for a commitment that we always said that would be at your expense.

Attorney Altman stated, that’s why, that’s why I put it on there. That’s why I put that on the bill so that it was clear, that’s why I did that. That’s why I submitted a claim.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, I just hate seeing that happen because then you just set a precedent. That if I need a commitment done then all I have to do is have the County push it through.

Attorney Altman stated, if the County wants to do it, I figure, that it’s their business. That’s the way I look at it.

Dave Rosenbarger asked, the County asked you to prepare the commitment?

Attorney Altman stated, they wanted me, they wanted it done and done as quickly as possible and uh, they wanted, I understood that they wanted an accommodation to move it. That’s why I did it. That’s why I went above and didn’t send them a bill or expect to send them one.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, right.

Greg Bossaer stated, Jerry if I read this right, we are going back to 2007.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, 2007. There’s 2 December bills in there from 07.

Attorney Altman stated, where?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, well the real lengthy one…

Greg Bossaer stated, you go 2007 and then January 08 on Spears.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, yeah, Spears, page 2, a fourth of the way down.

Attorney Altman stated, I didn’t realize that she put in 2 07s.

Dave Rosenbarger stated, 12/03 and 12/21.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, there is a December 07, those should not be involved with that. I will delete them off the bill.

Jim Mann asked, Jerry has it been your practice to accumulate your uh, legal activity with the commission and then provide a bill at the end of the year like this? Has this been your standard practice through the years to do so?

Attorney Altman stated, it has been the way it has happened. Yes. Yes.

Jim Mann asked, has any of these that are on the billings, have there been billings to uh, Area Plan prior to this particular series of invoices? Has there been other, as the years have gone on and on there were bills and associated documents about Spears and so on and some of the others.

Attorney Altman stated, Spears, and then Freeman and some on Borys.

Director Weaver stated, that’s why I give you that cover page that I graph so you can see what those on going costs are.

Jim Mann stated, okay.

Attorney Altman stated, and there’ve been other matters of course that I have billed for, yeah. Those, those were more for some of them.

Jim Mann asked, do these expenses compare with past year’s expenses?

Attorney Altman stated, essentially, they are by the hour. There, the Spears matter is uh, larger than usual. That’s probably the largest matter that I have ever handled or Area Plan, would be my recollection on that Jim.

Jim Mann stated, okay.

Don Ward asked, you don’t have a contract with us do you by any means?

Jerry Altman stated, yeah I do, I sure do. At the first of the year I am…

Don Ward stated, you mean when you are reappointed.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah and asked to do…

Dave Rosenbarger stated, it’s an hourly rate. Right?

Attorney Altman stated, and as the day, as the year goes on I, I do certain matters that are authorized to take enforcement action on an hourly basis.

Don Ward stated, I understand that, I understand that. What I was thinking was…

Attorney Altman stated, that’s all I mean by contract. So yes, I think…

Don Ward stated, you raise your fee to $125 an hour, right? All I was, what I was thinking about was that normally when I work for the County I have to give them an hourly rate and a contract, a written contract.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, as to that, uh I have it there, my private practice is more than that.

Don Ward stated, yeah.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah and that’s the only thing and if that’s…

Greg Bossaer stated, Jerry, you had said there were other Spears. There have been other bills sent in on these before.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, as it says there, $3525 on Spears, on Borys there was $1670…

President Anderson asked, what was the hourly rate on those? At the time that you did those?

Attorney Altman stated, I can’t tell you. I don’t know what it was and the…there were the ones on prior years. As Diann has provided here on this first page. I don’t remember what that hourly rate was Don so I can’t tell you.

Gerald Cartmell stated, Jerry, and maybe I don’t remember but I thought you were supposed to submit a monthly bill. Isn’t that right?

Attorney Altman stated, and I did not get one submitted. You are right.

President Anderson asked, when was the last monthly bill submitted?

Attorney Altman stated, I think it was last December.

Don Ward stated, December.

President Anderson asked, any other questions on this?

Jim Mann asked, Diann have you reviewed this?

Director Weaver stated, I have, yes.

Jim Mann asked, are you in sync with it?

Director Weaver stated, it’s really hard to judge when you, when you get it once a year. I didn’t see, I didn’t see anything that stood out to me that was out of line.

Jim Mann stated, okay.

Don Ward stated, you have to have a certain amount of…

Jim Mann stated, I know it was maybe an awkward question but I just…

Dave Scott stated, once a month may be too often but can we request to get a bill at least quarterly or something so that we can, you know, have a better idea. It’s too hard to remember back that far.

President Anderson asked, do I have a motion as far as accepting this?

Don Ward stated, I make a motion that we accept but I think that we need to correct the amount on there.

President Anderson stated, we’ve got a motion. Do we have a second on that?

Jim Mann stated, I’ll second.

President Anderson stated, all in favor raise your right hand.

Director Weaver stated, I have one more question. It goes along with this, as part of the settlement agreement with the Spears lawsuit. We agreed to pay the surveyor bill up to $1,000 plus the bill for mediation. I have these bills here.

President Anderson asked, how much was the bill for mediation?

The tape was changed.

Attorney Altman stated, the first thing that is new since this, is that I have engaged the attorney for the insurance company because we have that claim from them. And they filed a, a motion for summary judgment to eliminate the lawsuit. That’s exactly what I think, what should happen and where it should go because they agreed with me about the fact that with eminent, excuse me I’m trying, that we are immune from the lawsuit and immune from the liability of the lawsuit and that hasn’t gone to a hearing yet.

Don Ward stated, once that’s done, then it’s done.

Attorney Altman stated, yeah, and that’s what is the next step.

Don Ward asked, what do you think about paying the bills?

Attorney Altman stated, oh, I would pay them both.

Don Ward stated, okay. I think the surveyor definitely.

President Anderson asked, some one want to make a motion towards that?

Dave Rosenbarger stated, I’ll make a motion to pay both bills.

Mike Smolek stated, second.

President Anderson stated, all in favor raise your left hand.

Gerald Cartmell stated, you don’t get paid until you get your job done.

Dave Rosenbarger and President Anderson stated, well their job is done, we’re, our jobs not done.

Director Weaver stated, one more thing. I wanted to let all of you know that Melanie Harl, that works in the office, gave me her notice today. She will be done as of the end of the month.

Don Ward asked, the end of the year you say?

Director Weaver stated, yeah.

Don Ward made a motion to adjourn.

Greg Bossaer seconded the motion.

The meeting adjourned.

Repectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Joe Rogers, Director

White County Area Plan Commission

Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________






Joe Rogers, Director