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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, January 12, 2009 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Mike Smolek, Charles Anderson, Gerald Cartmell, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, Richard Lynn, and David Scott. Also attending was Attorney Riley.


Visitors Attending were: Woodrow Hamm, Patricia Tolley, David Tolley, Levera Gross, May Ella Brickey, Kristen K. Gross, Don Apple Sr., Kay Harrison (Lakes CC), Stuart Spindel, Tim Edwards, Nate Pyle, Peggy Pyle, Brian and Sandra Kearney, ????, Randall Crawford, and Ben Woodhouse (Deputy).

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken.

President Anderson stated, First on the agenda is reorganization we’ve only got 6 board members here. Do I have any; I’ve got another member now coming in. So we will give it a few seconds here. Hopefully, you’ve guys will bear with us tonight we don’t have a Director tonight and we’ve got a new attorney with us, Kevin Riley and then we’ve got a new board member with us tonight, Richard Lynn, over here. First on the agenda would be reorganization. Do I have any nominations for the floor for; we’ve got president, vice-president, and secretary.

Gerald Cartmell stated, yeah, I move that we leave them the way they are.

Dave Scott stated, I’ll second that.

President Anderson asked, any opposition to that at all? Okay, everybody in favor of that raise your right hand and it’s unanimous. I guess. So the officers will be left the way they are. Which I’m president, and Don Ward you are secretary right or vice…

Don Ward stated, I’m secretary, I know that.

President Anderson stated, yeah, I think so and then Rosenbarger, Dave Rosenbarger will remain president of it and Dave is not here tonight. Next will be reading of the minutes and we don’t have any minutes from our last meeting at all so we can’t have that. Next would be rezonings.


#968 Kraybill Farm, Inc. – Owner, Ramsey Development Corporation - Applicant; The property is located on 4.49 acres, Part SE ¼ NE ¼ 5-26-3, in the City of Monticello, Union Township, located in Monticello on the northwest corner of Sixth Street and Gordon Road.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to B-2.

President Anderson asked, do we have any one here representing that request? Do you want to come forward and state your name?

Tim Edwards stated, my name is Tim Edwards and I’m with Ramsey Development LLC.

President Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any questions about that request? Anybody in the audience have any questions about that request at all? Then we will bring her back to the commissioners. Any body here in the audience supporting that request? Besides the present?

Don Ward asked, this is to be a business section to go along with the…

Tim Edwards stated, to go along with the proposed health…

Don Ward stated, the other request, yeah.

Tim Edwards stated, right.

President Anderson stated, and pretty much it’s in a business area, across the street are businesses and down the road is the Moose. Isn’t it? The opposite way is residential or housing partially. I’d say, have got the…

Some one stated, I’ve got a question.

Gerald Cartmell stated, hang on a minute.

Jim Mann stated, we’ve got some questions here.

Dave Scott asked, can you step up here a minute.

Tim Edwards stated, sure.

Dave Scott stated, I’m looking at an aerial photograph, is this the one that you want for a residential zoning, to do residential.

Tim Edwards is looking at a map with the board members.

President Anderson stated, he is wanting to change it to business.

Tim Edwards stated, we are taking half of this, this is roughly 30 acres, we’re on this 15. There’s 2, there’s 2 zonings here.

President Anderson stated, yeah, I know.

Tim Edwards stated, the one that we are looking at now is the bottom 4 ½ acres here. Which is closest to this substation or whatever that is there.

Dave Scott stated, okay, and…

Tim Edwards stated, the other parcel is 10 or 11 acres whatever.

Jim Mann stated, so it goes this way.

There’s some discussion with the board members and Tim Edwards.

Tim Edwards stated, …towards the hospital.

Jim Mann stated, to the hospital.

Tim Edwards stated, to the hospital, right.

There’s more discussion.

Jim Mann stated, so it doesn’t go all of the way to the ditch.

Tim Edwards stated, no, no, no, actually it does go all the way to the ditch. That’s the way it is right there.

There’s more discussion.

President Anderson asked, any other questions at all? That you have on this particular rezoning. We have another one from him coming up after this one too. Nobody in the audience has any questions about the rezoning?

Some one asked, what’s this for?

Tim Edwards asked, what’s this here for?

Some one stated, yeah.

Tim Edwards stated, this part here’s for actually future development on the site we need. The site that we are buying is more than what we need so it’s, and what we are going to do is healthcare related services is what we normally try to get in there. Doctor’s offices, whatever, you know what works with…

President Anderson stated, you want to state your name because you are on record as asking that question.

Brian Kearney stated, Brian Kearney, just curious.

President Anderson stated, okay. You want to go ahead and pass those out and we’ll go ahead and vote on it then.

President Anderson stated, 7 votes cast and 7 voted yes so it will be sent to the Commissioners with a positive recommendation. The Commissioners meeting is next, a week from, next Monday at 10:00 am I think. Any body here, you will want to be there for that meeting too.

Don Ward stated, it’s usually the first thing.

Dennis Sterrett stated, yeah, I think its 8:00, about 8:30 isn’t it?

President Anderson stated, 8:30 in the morning.

Dennis Sterrett stated, or 8:15, somewhere around there.

Don Ward stated, 8:00, I would show up at 8:00.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the City of Monticello for their action.


#969 Kraybill Farm, Inc. – Owner, Ramsey Development Corporation - Applicant; The property is located on 10.51 acres, Part SE ¼ NE ¼ 5-26-3, in the City of Monticello, Union Township, located in Monticello on the west side of Sixth Street and north of the intersection of Sixth Street and Gordon Road.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1to R-3.

President Anderson stated, you want to state your reason for that again, as…

Tim Edwards stated, this is for assisted and skilled care nursing facility is what it’s for.

President Anderson asked, do we have any body in the audience with any questions about that request at all? Do the commissioners have any questions about that request?

Don Ward stated, no.

President Anderson stated, let’s go ahead and vote.

President Anderson stated, okay, in this case we had another commissioner come in so we had 7 votes cast, and we have 7 in favor so it will get a positive recommendation but we had 1 abstention on that and I think that may have been from the late arrival. I am not sure. So it will be sent to the Commissioners again the same time.

Tim Edwards stated, you say that meeting will be Monday, this Monday morning.

President Anderson stated, Monday, yeah and I think it meets at 8:30. I’m not sure so you want to…

Tim Edwards stated, and it’s here also. Correct?

President Anderson stated, yeah, it’s here in this room.

Tim Edwards stated, thank you.

The results of the vote were as follows: 7 affirmative and 0 negative and 1 abstention. This will be presented to the City of Monticello for their action.


#324 Frank and Doris King; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as King’s River Bend, on 3.478 acres, Part SW ¼ 1-28-3. The property is located in Liberty Township, northeast of Buffalo at 10228 N. Rock Ridge Road.

President Anderson stated, this has been tabled so we won’t hear anything on that. If anybody was her for that if they want to leave, they can leave at this time.


#326 Lake Shafer Christian Center; Requesting approval of a 2 lot subdivision to be known as LSCC Subdivision, on 7.000 acres, Part W ½ 21-27-3. The property is located in Union Township, north of Monticello at 1765 N. West Shafer Drive.

President Anderson stated, do we have any body here representing that request? You want to come forward and state your name.

Nate Pyle stated, Nate Pyle, Pastor.

President Anderson stated, the only problems that we have with that is that when it’s split the new lot won’t meet the requirements of the, what was the zoning on that? Let me read those minutes again.

Several stated, B-2.

President Anderson stated, on the B-2 zoning. So you need to go before the Board of Zoning Appeals for that. So if we pass this now it would be contingent on that. Is this both for primary and secondary approval of this?

Don Ward stated, just primary I think.

President Anderson stated, just primary on that. And then the other thing would be you haven’t got a drainage plan for lot 2 on it.

Nate Pyle stated, he’s working, working on it.

President Anderson stated, he’s working on it but that would have to be, you know, we could do that contingent on that being met too. And then it will all be, on the secondary it would all be ready to go after that. But this is just for the primary approval on that, I assume on it. Okay.

Nate Pyle stated, right.

President Anderson asked, do the commissioners have any questions about that request at all?

Dave Scott stated, yeah, I’ve go one. The lot, it doesn’t meet the minimum lot size and there’s, the nearest sanitary sewer’s 2200’ from the lot. What, what are you planning on putting there or are you planning on selling it or what.

Nate Pyle stated, yeah, selling it to, David Gutwein is buying it for an investment he hasn’t got anybody…

Gerald Cartmell asked, the guy that owns the car wash?

Nate Pyle asked, what’s that?

Gerald Cartmell asked, the guy that owns the car wash?

Nate Pyle stated, car wash.

Don Ward stated, Gutweins own a car wash but it may be a different one.

Nate Pyle stated, oh, different, there’s a few Gutweins around.

Gerald Cartmell stated, about 100 of them.

Dave Scott stated, but any way, I, we’re a little reluctant to give this a favorable recommendation when, if you, if we allow this, somebody buys that, not knowing that they don’t have a sewer hook up and there’s no way to get to the City utilities without easements or going on the City property or. What kind of provisions do they make for sewage for this lot is my question?

Gerald Cartmell asked, do you Denny?

Dennis Sterrett stated, no, not sanitary.

Dave Scott stated, the sanitary that’s what I’m saying.

Nate Pyle stated, David is aware that we needed a drainage plan and something needs to be done if it’s developed. He’s buying it for a future plan but I don’t know beyond that. We’re trying to inform him…

Jim Mann stated, so he knows, that there’s no sewage there at this particular time.

Nate Pyle stated, right, right.

President Anderson stated, …square foot what’s that going to end up being anyway.

Gerald Cartmell stated, ...thinks we need to do something with the City about that.

President Anderson stated, on the…

Gerald Cartmell stated, on the City.

Dave Scott asked, is that in the City limits?

Nate Pyle stated, no. Rickey Road is that City limits?

Jim Mann stated, the City limits go a little bit north of there but it doesn’t go all the way out.

Dave Scott stated, so that makes it even a little bit more, because if it was in the City limits they would have to bring sewer to them, but being outside the corporation.

President Anderson stated, the lot size is going to be like 94,999 sq. ft. is that what it’s going to be?

Nate Pyle stated, um, hmm.

President Anderson stated, so it’s about 2 acres almost.

Nate Pyle stated, yeah, it’s a little over…

President Anderson stated, that’s going to come off of that. Surely, they’ve, a septic would surely fit in a 2 acre…

Dave Scott stated, so you think they could put a well…provided the grounds percolates or whatever.

President Anderson stated, we’ll get to the audience here in a second.

Some one asked, are they going to put that sewer down when they put the new road in there? In another year or so.

Nate Pyle stated, sanitary, it’s not storm is it.

Dave Scott stated, my concern is the sanitary sewer at this point. We really, I think we ought to have, either ought to have the paper work done to see a percolation test done to see if, and to see if the lot would be suitable for a septic system or he needs to make provisions for the, to be hooked on to a public utility.

President Anderson stated, which we could do before the secondary we could still…

Dave Scott stated, cause if you don’t, he can…you may sell to this guy with good intentions and then maybe you won’t. Maybe you sell it to…and he’ll sell it to somebody and they’ll with the thinking that they have access to a sewer and there is none. That’s my concern, maybe it’s not a concern for you guys.

Gerald Cartmell stated, it makes sense.

Nate Pyle stated, I think David would tell them. He’s a sharp fella. I mean, I trust him…

President Anderson stated, yeah but we can’t rely on that as a board.

Nate Pyle stated, I understand, I understand. We’re going to inform David but I would hope that he would inform the buyer if he had one.

President Anderson asked, do we have anybody in the audience that wants to make a comment on this too? You want to come forward and state your name.

Don Apple stated, Don Apple, I was president of the sewer district and when that was all in the flux out there about what the Twin Lakes Sewer District was going to do about that sewer down through there and that was turned over to Pine Lake, Pine View Golf Course. Mr. Bonnell was supposed to put a sewer in there. It was his intention to put a sewer in there. He’s got a permit there at the resort but that’s been in litigation in court. My understanding is now that contract was up a year or two years ago so I don’t know whether or not they have renewed that contract. But it was supposed to come, the sewer district has got an outlet right there at the corner of Norway Road and Sixth Street. A 6” pipe with a plug on it so that, so that line can be run right straight down Sixth Street to Fisher, Fisher Street or Rickey Road to Rickey Road. And where that is standing as far as viability at this point in time I don’t know. But that was contingent on the City of Monticello annexing that piece of property out there and where that stands at this point in time maybe something that the board would be interested in pursuing and taking a look at what’s going on. But there is, there is supposed to be sanitary sewer cut in there right down to the…

President Anderson stated, yeah, but that wouldn’t be up to this board to have to check into that.

Don Apple stated, no, no, no, but I’m just saying it’s something to consider when you are talking about sanitary sewer.

Gerald Cartmell stated, the other part of that story is that the golf course is for sale…

Several people are talking at once.

Don Apple stated, yeah, that’s true because he was spending about $300,000 to put that system in.

Dennis Sterrett asked, would that have been a private sewer?

Don Apple stated, no, well yes it would have been. You are absolutely right. It would have been his sewer and it was supposed to come right down the property there down to almost the church there and then go across the road there and there was a lot of comment made at that time about the Hubbard’s property across the road over there and how he was planning on, what he planned on doing with that. And so, but the sewer district still owns the…

Don Ward stated, well, when he goes to get a building permit. That’s when they are going to check the land for a septic system and if he can’t handle it then they will have no choice but to do something else at that time.

Dave Scott stated, but see if the guy buys it and the thing’s not suitable for a septic system then he may not be able to get a sewer there because he might have to buy easements off the neighbors or as a private sewer you can’t have it on public right-of-way.

President Anderson stated, I think that sewer would run to that from the City of Monticello would be cost prohibitive any way.

Don Ward stated, well, I don’t know with permission…

Dave Scott stated, pardon me.

Don Ward stated, you could probably do it with permission from the County Commissioners. It would be a force main I am sure it would have to be. He could go south too from there to the man hole at the custard stand there.

President Anderson asked, does anybody else in the audience have any questions or comments about this?

Dave Scott stated, but he can’t get there from his property.

Don Ward stated, you mean can’t get there from here.

Gerald Cartmell stated, no, you have to go across that field.

Dave Scott stated, no, you have to go across other people’s property to get there or the public right-of-ways.

Don Ward stated, down the right-of-way.

President Anderson stated, we’ll still talk about this in a second. Let’s see if any body in the audience has any other. Any body in the audience has any questions about this subdivision? Any comments at all that they want to make about this subdivision? Okay. I’ll ask our lawyer, what do you think about adding that as far as.

Attorney Riley stated, I would just tell you can give primary approval conditioned on or based on certain conditions. Conditions which could include them obtaining a variance on Thursday that they have applied for conditioned also upon them complying with or meeting the requirements of the White County Drainage and Sediment Control Ordinance which maybe you can discuss.

President Anderson asked, do you think that we would have to put something about testing that for a septic system in that area? Or you think we ought to let that…

Attorney Riley stated, I don’t know, I don’t know if that’s a part of the Sediment Control Ordinance or not.

Dennis Sterrett stated, no.

President Anderson stated, it’s not according to them.

Mike Smolek asked, when you are selling this are you putting any kind of conditions on this sale of it?

Nate Pyle stated, well, we just mentioned to David there is a, a State law about you can’t build any bars next door but as long as it’s reasonable.

Mike Smolek stated, that’s what I’m getting at because a B-2 basically opens it up for anything. As far as a business in that area and being close to a, I just look at that playground there and so on and so forth. I didn’t know if you put any stipulations in that contract when you do sell it.

Nate Pyle stated, no, I just talked to David about, you know, whoever buys that needs to consider that so I don’t know what you would stipulate. You know, I wouldn’t think that there would be anything going in to risky there.

President Anderson stated, no, it would be against the law to put a bar there anyway cause it’s too close to the church.

Nate Pyle stated, right, it’s against the State law.

President Anderson asked, what do the Commissioners think as far as do you think we ought to have to add anything about a septic system on that or is that, you know, any body purchasing that knows to…

Don Ward stated, I think that’s up to the board but my feeling is that comes up when they get ready to build something, when they want to build something and they want a permit. Then it’s going to have to be checked.

Dave Scott stated, so its buyer beware.

Gerald Cartmell asked, buyer beware then huh?

Don Ward stated, yes…if you guys want to we could put something in there but I don’t know exactly how you…not unless we ask for percolation test prior to secondary approval.

Dave Scott stated, well, other subdivision we make them have all of the provisions met, have everything, make them have a plan.

Don Ward stated, well, I don’t know that we do that though. We don’t ask for percolation tests.

Dave Scott stated, no, but they, they need somewhere to take care of the sanitary.

Don Ward stated, they have to have an area large enough to take care of a well and a septic system.

Dave Scott stated, it just has to be big enough whether it passes or not doesn’t matter to us.

Don Ward, right, later on they take the percolation test.

Jim Mann stated, actually in terms of the sale of the property, should Mr. Gutwein decide to sell it, it may that his purchaser, whoever that might be, requests that the soil be able to percolate before he would close on the transaction. That’s a typical part of doing that, you know, so for us to require that, is in a sense a little bit of putting the cart ahead of the horse.

Dave Scott stated, if you’re comfortable with it I don’t have…

Jim Mann stated, at this, at this stage…

Dave Scott stated, I’m just trying to protect somebody down the road, thinking that they are going to buy something and be able to put a restroom on it and they couldn’t.

President Anderson asked, how many on the board, you want to show, take a call of hands on that?

Don Ward stated, what do you think Denny, you’re on this drainage more than we are.

Attorney Riley asked, can I interject? As long as they’re, the decision is based on whether they are meeting the standards of the sub, of the ordinance. Then part of those conditions would be the conditions that they haven’t met of the ordinance, meaning the variance request and the, and the, meeting the drainage ordinance.

President Anderson stated, actually this isn’t a part of, whether it can hold a septic system, isn’t a part of the ordinance then.

Dave Scott asked, is it part of the Subdivision Ordinance, do you think?

Attorney Riley stated, not that I am aware of. I, I’m not completely familiar with the ordinance at this point but my point being that you can condition this upon…

There is some discussion among the board members.

Don Ward stated, we can put the condition on there that, that we require a percolation test before we give the secondary approval.

President Anderson stated, it’s not going to be that cost prohibitive for the owner of it…

Don Ward stated, it is costly, yeah.

President Anderson asked, what do you suppose it will cost them?

Dave Scott stated, $300.

Don Ward stated, $300 - $400.

President Anderson stated, $300, yeah but they can tag that on to the price.

Dave Scott stated, well if it’s not in our Subdivision Ordinance. I’m fine with it but if it is in there we need to make sure that it is in there. That’s what it boils down to I think.

President Anderson asked, do you think you can find it in there right quick? We’ll look here and see.

There’s some discussion among the board members.

Attorney Riley stated, I don’t see it just on my quick review. I don’t see anything in there at all.

President Anderson stated, I don’t think it’s in that ordinance at all.

Dave Scott stated, it must be…

President Anderson asked, do you want to let it go with the 2 provisions then? All in favor of doing that, you want to raise your right hand. Okay, so we will go ahead and pass this with the conditions that it, subject to the BZA…

Don Ward stated, subject to approval of the Drainage Board

President Anderson stated, and approval of the Drainage Board. Any body else in the audience have any comments or questions about this request at all? Okay.

Don Ward stated, I have it in my head that there’s going to be a pond at the east end of that property. Am I crazy or something?

Nate Pyle stated, no, it does form one right there…

Don Ward asked, did you talk about them putting a pond down, a drainage pond, or a collection pond, buildings like, for the church and I got this idea and they told me today that I was a little bit off base or a little bit crazy. I thought we talked about having a sediment pond back here on the east end and then water from the church would drain down there from the buildings and parking areas and water would come from anything built on lot 1 could go into that sediment basin. Denny told me and he’s the Surveyor and he said that he didn’t think that there was any outlet for it so, but, we did discuss that a little bit. Right?

Nate Pyle stated, maybe we did, maybe the last meeting.

Don Ward stated, maybe we didn’t. Maybe I dreamed it. Any way we aren’t going to worry about it right now.

Nate Pyle stated, it does form a pond…

Don Ward stated, a pond…down in there.

Nate Pyle stated, up close to the road there a little ways in maybe 100’.

Attorney Riley stated, we do need to indicate subject to the approval of the variance.

President Anderson stated, BZA, that’s what I put, subject to BZA approval of variance.

Don Ward stated, subject to approval of by the BZA.

Attorney Riley stated, of the variance request.

Some one stated, Drainage Board and BZA.

Nate Pyle asked, can I ask a question while you are doing this?

President Anderson stated, yeah, go ahead.

Nate Pyle asked, as we approve, we’re approving the sale of this primary, right? This is primary approval.

President Anderson stated, this is primary approval. Once you get the drainage approval and the BZA then you have to bring it back for the secondary approval and then it could be…

Nate Pyle stated, from James…okay, we’re bringing the plan or James Milligan is bringing the plan or we’re bringing the plan to you, right?

President Anderson stated, yeah.

Nate Pyle stated, we’ll bring a check for $2,000. That was kind of a mind blower to me, I’ve never dealt with land before but that’s a…I got a copy and showed the board but it was, wow. Are we, if we invest the $2,000 and you say it’s not approved do we loose the $2,000?

Dennis Sterrett stated, we have an engineer review your plans and he’ll send us a bill for his services so we’ll have to pay him out of that fee.

Nate Pyle stated, right, but the…

Dennis Sterrett stated, if we don’t use it all then you get it back.

Nate Pyle stated, we’re hoping that the plan that James draws up will be approved then is what we are hoping. We just have to hope for that I guess.

President Anderson asked, you pray for that though don’t you?

Nate Pyle stated, well we are definitely doing that. That’s for sure.

Attorney Riley stated, yeah, their not all, they probably should be more detailed than what they are but we would have to go back to each guy.

President Anderson stated, okay, but then as long as it’s on record, it will be on record that primary approval shall be granted upon the receipt of additional conditions which would be the approval of a variance by the BZA and the approval by the Drainage Board of the drainage of the property on it and it was a vote of 8, 8…

Attorney Riley stated, it was unanimous.

President Anderson stated, it was unanimous on that so then you have to come back with a secondary approval after that’s been met to us.

Nate Pyle stated, in February.

President Anderson stated, in February, well hopefully February.

Nate Pyle stated, well, we’re hoping to get the plan over by the 23rd…and they have their meeting on the 2nd.

President Anderson stated, well, we are going through a pretty good change in the office there too so hopefully everything can be handled by that time too. But if it can’t then it would be done in March as best we can on that. That’s another thing that you can handle, that’s another thing that you can handle on Sunday.

Nate Pyle stated, well, we’ll keep praying, we’ll keep praying. Thank you.

Attorney Riley stated, there is one ballot…

President Anderson stated, oh, is there one…

Attorney Riley stated, Greg.

Gerald Cartmell stated, it must be me.

President Anderson stated, okay there was 7 in favor and 1 that the standards weren’t met.

Attorney Riley stated, no…

President Anderson stated, there’s still 8 in favor of it and that doesn’t have to go any where other than to this board on this.

Attorney Riley stated, if you’re going to approve you have to mark down here by, if you mark out that second x then you’ll have to mark down here by the approval.

Gerald Cartmell stated, oh, I see, okay.

President Anderson stated, right here, the third one down, the third one down and scribble them other ones out. That will work. We got it now.

The Primary Approval for a 2 lot subdivision to be known as LSCC Subdivision was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met with conditions.


President Anderson stated, next on the agenda would be business. Anybody here that was with this other request they can leave now if they want to but we don’t need to have a lot…

There is some discussion among the board members and the attorney to update the attorney regarding the business with mobile homes.

President Anderson stated, we’ve got an audience here. I don’t know exactly why the audience is here is there somebody that wants to come up and make a statement. I know one will right now.

Woodrow Hamm stated, my name is Woodrow Hamm from Buffalo area. I think it’s about the 3rd or 4th meeting that I’ve been here complaining about the ordinance that you people passed about no mobiles or manufactured homes back in White County. I’m here to complain about that again and I would like to ask the board a question. I’ve talked to a lady down in Treasurer’s department named Mickey. I’m probably sure that you know who Mickey is. She told me that their issuing moving permits for trailers in and around in White County and all you need is where it’s at and where it’s going and a title. Now if it’s illegal to put a trailer in somewhere how can they give you a moving permit to put something in that’s illegal? Can you answer me that question?

President Anderson stated, don’t know anything about that. Any body here on the board…

Mike Smolek stated, the moving permit has to do with the assessment of the taxes on the property and so you have to get that permit so its free and clear of all leans or any tax liability against it. It has nothing to do with this office.

Woodrow Hamm stated, Correct

Woodrow Hamm stated, yea but when they get the moving permit there was

Mike Smolek stated, Its worded funny yes

Woodrow Hamm stated, yea but they move them anyway.

Mike Smolek stated, Right I understand

Woodrow Hamm stated, I’m not trying to get anybody in any trouble.

Mike Smolek stated, I understand that.

Woodrow Hamm stated, I’m not trying to get anybody in any trouble Lord knows I’m not trying to do that.

Mike Smolek stated, but the moving permit is strictly to do with personal property taxes.

Woodrow Hamm stated, right

Mike Smolek stated, It has nothing to do with this office.

Woodrow Hamm stated, Well it coincides with this office cause if they give somebody a building permit if I go down there and get a moving permit and buy a trailer out here and take it to the house and park it but you people tell me its illegal.

Mike Smolek stated, it is illegal

Woodrow Hamm stated, then you shouldn’t be allowed to get a moving permit.

Mike Smolek stated, it has nothing to do with this office.

Commissioner stated, this office doesn’t put those moving permits out evidently.

Mike Smolek stated, right it has to do with the assessor.

Woodrow Hamm stated, I know that but still it would be illegal just like transporting moonshine up here would be illegal.

Mike Smolek stated, that’s why when a trailer is assessed on a property that’s not supposed to be here then they come up here and then the person that has that trailer on that property gets a fine for having it there so..

Woodrow Hamm stated, but their moved.

Mike Smolek stated, I understand that

Commissioner stated, you can’t please all that all the time but they will…

Mike Smolek stated, in Cass township there were 13 trailers there that weren’t supposed to be there. It happens all the time.

Woodrow Hamm stated, no, I know that

Mike Smolek stated, but that’s what that moving permit is, its more for a tax liability than anything else. That means its free and clear that it can be move off that parcel.

Commissioner stated, but as far as, what your really concerned about we didn’t set up a committee to research that, its going to be done, its going to take awhile, its going to take awhile to get this office back in the situation where it can be working efficiently and we will try to change that ordinance when we can on that, if we can.

Mike Smolek stated, were hoping to have something worked out by the next meeting as far as the house trailers and that way we can bring it to the board and the board can discuss it and vote on it somewhat at that time.

Woodrow Hamm stated, Oh so if there are people like myself that want to move one in these ladies back here that you heard speak before their house burnt

Mike Smolet stated, correct

Woodrow Hamm stated, so… I’ll sit down and let somebody else talk.

Mike Smolet stated, thank you gentleman.

Commissioner stated, well we can’t to much of that discussion tonight but we will have a little bit.

Levera Gross stated, I was just wondering if anything was being, you know, done about it and he answered it pretty much.

Commissioner stated, ok

Commissioner stated, we are going to try and have something put together and voted on by the next meeting.

Commissioner stated, but then it would take another… we wouldn’t be able to pass that would we even be able to pass that…would we be able to pass that?

Commissioner stated, I think we would

Commissioner stated, see what your…

Commissioner stated, because you would be amending it.

Commissioner stated, it has to be advertised

Commissioner stated, it would have to be advertised so it would probably have to take another meeting after that. So it would take at least 2 more months to be able to do that and the new director coming in who isn’t even in yet which comes in on the 19th I’m not sure we can get that done either but hopefully we can. Do we have any questions out there right now? Would you like to come forward and state your name?

Randy Crawford stated, I have a piece of property back in Buffalo that’s got a trailer from the fifties on it. Its used at summer. Can that be taken out and replaced with a newer one?

Commissioner stated, not right now, well that all depends on…

Commissioner stated, when the ordinance was written, there was a lot of people that’s…

Commissioner stated, how big a lot is it though?

Randy Crawford stated, ah we got almost 3 lots there you know, 50 foot lots they are 150 by 150 something like that, its 3 50 foot lots its sitting on but..

Commissioner stated, to reach the setbacks in a…

Commissioner stated, I think the new, it has to be

Randy Crawford stated, what we are wanting to do is just take the old single wide trailer off its being used all the time in the summer and just put a one from the 80’s or 90’s I mean from the 90’s or 2000’s in you know a newer upgrade it.

Commissioner stated, is it on its own subdivision, or is it on…

Randy Crawford stated, its back in Palmer

Commissioner stated, no but I mean is it was it already been subdivided where it’s a subdivision or is it a stand alone property?

Randy Crawford stated, its already its sort of subdivided back there in Palmer addition.

Commissioner stated, but there’s 3 lots in this one lot?

Randy Crawford stated, its got the trailer on one lot, I got, there’s 3 lots soaked together there.

Commissioner stated, yea it all depends on the size and those other lots would have to be combined probably to get enough area for you to be able to do…

Randy Crawford stated, yea its 170 ft wide by 120 ft deep.

Commissioner stated, but that’s something you would have to bring before our area plan director and ask him when we get our area plan director.

Randy Crawford stated, you don’t have to replace it with stick built though?

Commissioner stated, no, no, the whole thing with the ordinance is if there was any new mobile home parks or there called what R4’s now being built, they had to have a certain acreage. Well when it was written we didn’t catch the part where it also affected all the old ones and so now that is the standing rule when it was adopted. We have to go back and edited that a little bit to get it where the existing properties are still functional the way they are.

Commissioner stated, again that is something we can’t handle or tell you for sure here tonight. That is something that are director would have to discuss with you and then we would have to change this ordinance too to try to accommodate you on that.

Randy Crawford stated, thank you

Commissioner stated, we got another question want to state your name?

Christin Gross stated, When we went to area plan, they said only trailers can be moved in to A1 or trailer parks, no where else.

Commissioner stated, correct

Christin Gross stated, no matter how big your property is it has to be A1 or a trailer park.

Commissioner stated, but we were going into areas where these are grandfathered isn’t that what you and Mike were talking about?

Commissioner stated, right that’s when we were, the new ordinance, that’s if were putting in new stuff it was suppose to be, it would have to be an R4 regulation or agriculture. Well we got 1,000 lake properties up and down here that are already got trailers on them that we just basically cut out of the ordinance and now we can’t do anything with them. That’s that we have to go back and fix.

Commissioner stated, do you want to state you name?

Mary Albrigy stated, um so I need to understand something. My daughter owns 3 acres of land in Buffalo. Her trailer did burn down. Is there or is there not a possibility that she may be able to replace it with another mobile home because she owns the property she does not have the money to build a home.

Commissioner stated, is it.. what is zoned as right now?

Mary Albrigy stated, A1

Commissioner stated, ok, I will have to go back and look at the ordinance but right now we have…

Mary Albrigy stated, I have little grandsons that are wanting a home, someplace to live. They are staying with us and they can stay indefinitely but they want a home you know, can you blame them?

Commissioner stated, we know there’s a problem with it. Were going to work through this. We’ve just hired a new director and a new lawyer and so on and so forth so we’ve got some things we know we need to fix.

Mary Albrigy stated, o.k.

Commissioner stated, so give us a month or so and check with us next meeting and see what we come up with..

Commissioner stated, but…

Commissioner stated, and hopefully we might have something done by then if not definitely by the next…

Commissioner stated, actually your best choice would be to check with our new director as we try to improve this cause we can’t do anything right here at this board other than trying to change what has come down which we think in the ordinance we have to change but it’s going to have to be run through the area plan office and the new area plan director is where it’s all going to have to be run through and I’m going to have to shut this off pretty soon cause we can’t really handle anything here tonight. Mr. Apple do you want to come forward and state your name?

Don Apple stated, I own a mobile home court up on Lake Shaffer and it is a mobile home, certified mobile home court. Is anything that you are doing in the ordinances going to be effecting the situation up there where we’re grandfathered? Are you… do I understand that your talking about removing that grandfathering or what is… can you give me a thumbnail…

Commissioner stated, A lot of the old properties, some of them should have been grandfathered. The way this was written its got problems in it so don’t do anything right now until we get this figured out.

Don Apple stated, uh huh

Commissioner stated, but you’re a mobile home park though…

Don Apple stated, right I’m a state licensed mobile home park.

Commissioner stated, so were not changing that.

Commissioner stated, so were not changing that, it’s the new ones that are being developed is what were trying to do to give them more square footage lot size what ever you want to call it between the trailers and so on and so forth. It was how there supposed to be set up. The old ones are already set up that way. There shouldn’t be any problems with those. I might have to go back and read it.

Commissioner stated, but again you have to go through our new director and talk with him too.

Don Apple stated, the thing that I was concerned about of course its… being a state license you got to go through there rigmarole down there.

Commissioner stated, but you already got that done I mean… its already done…

Don Apple stated, It’s already done I just wanted to make sure that we weren’t going to be…now I can bring anything into that court that I so deem fit to put in the court now, there’s not going to be a…is that 1981 age limit still in effect or what is the…

Commissioner stated, yea, you can’t bring….

Don Apple stated, anything older than 81 am I correct in the act proposed to be changed?

Commissioner stated, can they still get it inspected if its older than that or did we throw that out?

Commissioner stated, no we threw that out I think.

Commissioner stated, it has to do with the electrical in it and that’s why they didn’t want any put in there.

Don Apple stated, yea, well I’m not going to be stupid enough to put..

Commissioner stated, but as we…you know found out before you can still buy 81 and newer and they would still be junk.

Don Apple stated, yea, and that’s absolutely true and I got some in there that’s older than that and that’s fantastic that are really beautiful trailers. But I just want to know where I’m standing because I have people calling me all the time since they found out were grandfathered…can I bring in a trailer and put it in your court and I got to know you know what were dealing with…

Commissioner stated, what you can put in there.

Don Apple stated, I don’t want to say yes and all of a sudden the ordinance be changed that says hey…

Commissioner stated, but if you go 81 and newer your probably ok on that then.

Don Apple stated, pick it up and haul it out of here.

Commissioner stated, alright I’m…were going to have to…

Can I have one quick question?

Commissioner stated, ok want to state your name again because its on the record.

Michael Crawford stated, I have Crawford Corner subdivision in Buffalo. I’ve sold 4 lots, I’ve got like 16 of them. They’re all over an acre lot but in the a restrictions on there it has to be stick built or double wide on a permanent foundation at least 1200 square feet. Would this effect me at all? This went into effect back in 19….I think I bought the property in 92 or something like that.

Commissioner stated, It’s manu…

Michael Crawford stated, but I still have lots for sale there and I’ve sold 4 of them and the 4 lots I’ve sold one put a Rochester home in there and 3 double wides on permanent foundations. No single wides and I was just wondering if…if anything changed.

Commissioner stated, That’s another thing you’re going to have to ask our director cause we don’t really know the answer but it is a manufactured home…a double wide can be a double wide trailer but you can’t move those but you can a manufactured home where the wheels come off of it. Wasn’t that what was in there?

Commissioner stated, uh huh something like that.

Commissioner stated, something to that effect but then again you are going to have to wait till we get our director in and talk to him and…

Michael Crawford stated, ok thank you.

Commissioner stated, Mr. President, is there going to be a herring on that before that’s finalized or is anybody going to have to….

President stated, it will have to be advertised.

Several people talking at once

Commissioner stated, it will be at a public herring.

Commissioner stated, ok any other business?

Commissioner stated, we just have that one…..

Commissioner stated, you guys are welcome to leave if you want, it’s just going to be our business unless you want to stay for our business.

Thank you very much

Commissioner stated, Kevin want to talk to you about what he’s done so far…

Kevin stated well I just wanted to know I’m trying to catch up a little bit with some of the things that are going on. One issue that you may all be aware of is that there is a law suit that was filed by Spears don’t know…can’t recall the complete name against area plan commission and also against Diann weaver. Um there have actually been 2 cases filed in that ah I have talked to the attorney who is hired by the insurance company…Travelers insurance, they retained an attorney to represent the county and Diann in that lawsuit. Ah Jerry Altman had entered his appearance meaning he had appeared at court on behalf of APC and Diann ah probably did that just as an initial matter that’s pretty common but then once the insurance council gets involved then it turns council takes the lead on that so um just wanted to tell you that’s kind of my plan rather than charge you for my services and being involved when you already have an insurance council involved um I may be present just to help communicate information to the executive director or the board from the attorney but I don’t plan on being heavily involved in that um so I just wanted to make you aware that that’s whats going on and that’s how I intend to handle it and if you have any questions about that I will be happy to answer them.

Commissioner stated, the questions we had earlier too um I talked to Kevin, called him on the phone and um do you want to comment on any at all.

Kevin stated, yea I don’t know if you want this on the record or if you just want to talk about this generally I mean its…its not really…

Commissioner stated, we can take it off the record Bernie. Do you want to close the meeting?

Commissioner made a motion to adjourn.

Commissioner seconded the motion.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission

Joseph W. Rogers, Director

White County Area Plan Commission





Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan,