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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, February 9, 2009, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Jim Mann Jr., Mike Smolek, David Rosenbarger, Charles Anderson, Donald W. Ward, Dennis Sterrett, Richard Lynn, and David Scott. Also attending were Attorney Kevin Riley and Director Joe Rogers.


Visitors Attending were: Rocky King, Dan King, Woodrow Hamm

The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the , December 8, 2008, & January 6, 2009 meeting. Motion was seconded by and carried unanimously.


# 970 Frank L. & Doris A King - The property is located on 3.478 Acres , Part of SW ¼ 1-28-3, in Liberty Township, located northeast of Buffalo at 10228 N. Rock Ridge Road.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to L-1

Rocky King stated, I am Frank and Doris’s son. What we are trying do is separate the property, Splitting into 2 lots for me and my brother. My parents are getting up in age now and they want to see that it’s in both of our names before that.

Commissioner stated, Motion was made to vote

Commissioner stated, second

Commissioner stated, so moved

The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County commissioners with a positive recommendation from us; for their action.

The commissioners meeting is next Monday at 8:00.


# 324 Frank L. & Doris A King - The property is located on 3.478 Acres , Part of SW ¼ 1-28-3, in Liberty Township, located northeast of Buffalo at 10228 N. Rock Ridge Road.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting to rezone from A-1 to L-1

This was tabled from our January 12, 2009 meeting.

Commissioner stated, did anybody have to contact the court? Did you have to contact the court?

Rocky King stated, yea, I had built a home down there on one of the halves and yes I went the Army Core and Indiana Department of Natural Resources.

Commissioner stated, did the court give you anything in writing at all?

Rocky King stated, a flood analysis, yea. You know what I don’t know if I have it from the core, I think I just have an elevation certificate from the surveyor.

Commissioner stated, You got something from the DNR here and from INC

Rocky King stated, I know it took quite awhile to pull all these permits. I’m really glad we did it that way. The building was sitting there since the flood and I woke up one night….oh my god.

Commissioner stated, this is just for the primary right not the secondary.

Rocky King stated, right

Commissioner stated, does it meet all the specifications of the subdivisions?

Rocky King stated, as far as I know. This is one that Dianna did, but when you look at the staff report, she didn’t bring up any objections to it.

Commissioner stated, it has to be subject to rezoning right?

Commissioner stated, subject to rezoning passing on Monday, yea

Rocky King stated, so we will find this out next Monday? Maybe?

Commissioner stated, most likely you wont have any problem with it, cause there is nobody questing what you are doing or anything like that but it is better to be there for that meeting. We will have to put this contingent on the rezoning.

Rocky King stated, after that meeting, is that pretty much all I have to do to make this all happen?

Commissioner stated, then you have to come back for the secondary.

Rocky King stated, oh there is a secondary, ok.

Commissioner stated, then the improvements have to be done at that point.

Joe Rogers stated, are you available to come into my office during the day?

Rocky King stated, it would be tough, I mean if it was going to help me out I would just take off work if I had to.

Joe Rogers stated, have you been given copies of the requirements for the second phase?

Rocky King stated, no I am not even aware of the second phase.

Joe Rogers stated, why don’t I put something together and shoot it in the mail to you as far as to what’s required before you can get secondary approval. Then if you have questions, you can give me a call or we can discuss it.

Rocky King stated, I would appreciate that.

Commissioner stated, I’m not familiar with this FEMA thing but it says the base flood elevation is 661.3 and you are suppose to be 2 feet above it but the floor elevation here says it’s only 6 tenths above it for the top of the next higher floor or after crawlspace.

Rocky King stated, I don’t know, Jim Milligan came down and gave us a bench mark and we are two feet above that. Now I don’t know if anybody has ever came to the house since the house was built to verify that elevation.

Commissioner stated, I admit I don’t understand whether you have to have that 2 feet above that 661.3.

Rocky King stated, yea, that’s what I’m at. That’s what I was told so that’s why I built that.

Commissioner stated, was the house there in 2005?

Rocky King stated, yea

Commissioner stated, so the house is 2 feet above that elevation?

Rocky King stated, yes

Commissioner stated, apparently your built to the right elevation but I don’t know why this says that your only 6 tents above it.

Rocky King stated, I’m not aware of anybody coming back to verify that elevation. I know I had the elevation set and then I shot 2 feet above that to finish the floor.

Commissioner stated, you weren’t flooded during that last storm at all?

Rocky King stated, no, actually when he did it I thought it was kind of crazy because it was way up there but they knew what they were talking about. No complaints here, as a matter of fact I was going to send them a fruit basket after that flood. It definitely saved me because I wouldn’t have went up that high.

Commissioner stated, I’m make a motion that we vote on it.

Commissioner stated, second

Commission stated, so moved

Commissioner stated, it would be conditional upon approval of rezoning.

Commissioner stated, the votes were 8 in approval with the condition of the approval of the rezoning changed from A-1 to L-1 which will happen on Monday. As far as the subdivision, it doesn’t go any further that this other than we have to do a secondary on it and you should get the information about secondary from our director and then the approval for the rezoning would be taken care of on Monday at the commissioners meeting.

The Primary Approval for a lot subdivision to be known as Subdivision was approved by a vote of to , based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.

The Secondary Approval request for a subdivision to be known as Subdivision was approved by a vote of to , based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.


Next on the agenda would be business:

Commissioner stated, I had received a couple of phone calls and I had talked to Mike about the transition of the new ordinance and I guess I just wanted to talk to you about what you had in mind and I don’t know whether Diann had shared with you HMTB______ they had finished the ordinance probably early last fall. They had presented a proposal to us for the transition that would cost 55,000 dollars which you might imagine the commission and council were not to crazy about turning around and spending that kind of money after we spent the money _____ already. I had sat down and talked to Diann at that time. They had I think 8 different topics listed there. Did any of you see that at all? I should have made copies. Anyway I had talked to Diann about what she thought the office could do on there own. She thought they could probably do a lot of it here in house. Of course that’s about the time things kind of got interesting in house and so really nothing got done. I did discuss that proposal again with the other commissioners I guess in December and I think the feeling was again that we weren’t going to spend that kind of money with HMTB.

Commissioner stated, what are they going to do for the $55 thousand dollars?

Commissioner stated, well I can give you a copy of it. A lot of these things I’m not sure I understand but the one that kind of caught our eye was this application packet. Was it $8,800 dollars they wanted for that?

Commissioner stated, $8,820

Commissioner stated, yea and I had asked Diann what that was and that was preparing the packet. If I come in and say I want to rezone, well they give you this handout that tells the procedure, ie you got to have a survey….and what all. We have got one of those now. The $8,800 dollars for them to prepare one, that kind of told us that some of that was padded a little bit.

Commissioner stated, I apologize for interrupting. I have started working on by-laws for the BZA and revising there forms and part of what I have revised is the handouts and the forms and the ballots so that’s something we have already started to get into.

Commissioner stated, that’s one of the things I wanted to touch base with tonight.

Commissioner stated, one of the things I see that we are going to need is the maps.

Commissioner stated, the maps are the big thing and I talked to Joe about it.

Commissioner stated, if we can get Denny to make a map like that, seriously we could sit down…4 or 5 of us get together and map this thing out and then let everybody look at it and add to it and take away and come up with something like that.

Commissioner stated, well as I understand it and Joe, we’ve discussed this. It can be done on the computer now right?

Joe Rogers stated, yea, that’s my understanding. Diann had told me she is able to actually change zonings on the computer. Where she runs into difficulty is when you do a property split, that is controlled by Indianapolis and they do not add zoning to it so it comes up blank.

Commissioner stated, right, and I discussed that. We had a GIS meeting last week. Manatron was up here and I discussed that issue with them and they said that’s right their current program would not split the zoning. When a split happens, you will have to do that manually here. But it can be done manually here.

Joe Rogers stated, yea, I believe that’s true.

Commissioner stated, I think we can do it in house. I’m not that technical, I don’t know the procedure.

Joe Rogers stated, I guess I have a couple of concerns, one is that according to the procedure there is suppose to be hard maps like the ones that we have.

Commissioner stated, that’s the second part of that, we are going to have to have the hard copy maps. I think that’s what you were talking about.

Joe Rogers stated, right

Commissioner stated, They can be drawn off of what’s on the internet.

Joe Rogers stated, well except for the current zonings on the computer are not accurate.

Commissioner stated, yea, that’s going to have to be changed and that’s part of the transition. We are going to have to update that per the new ordinance.

Joe Rogers stated, I’m not sure how we would do that. I know physically how you can go in and change one zoning to another but how we go back 15 years and identify all the zoning changes that have occurred. I don’t know where draw is on the computer. I know the maps haven’t been upgraded for 15 years but on the computer I don’t know where we go to get the information to tell us what to change the zones to.

Commissioner stated, the price that HMTB gives on there says that price is if…if you look at the asterisk there what does it say down below?

Commissioner stated, probably says if you do the rest.

Commissioner stated, yea if we do most of the work I think.

Commissioner read part of the agreement from HMTB

Commissioner stated, it doesn’t say that you have to do the whole package though.

Commissioner stated, but is says you have to have all of that information usable to them.

Commissioner stated, so if you’ve got it, you might as well enter it.

Commissioner stated, well if we’ve got it all…

Commissioner stated, it’s just finding someone that can work at putting it together.

Commissioner stated, are you saying that we would have to pull 15 years of files to update our zoning map?

Commissioner stated, in some cases you are.

Commissioner stated, then somebody would have to plot.

Commissioner stated, it would be almost like you would have to have the original and then put overlay across the top of what we are going towards.

Commissioner stated, what about staffing to do that? I mean how does that play into this. Normal everyday work loads with people walking in and walking out. Is there any latitude for providing additional assistance to get the job done?

Commissioner stated, obviously there is a transition going on anyway and so I’m not sure.

Commissioner stated, I’m confused, when we rezone you know we just rezoned one tonight. Does that just drop? Where does that information go?

Commissioner stated, that’s a good question.

Joe Rogers stated, it does not get plotted on the map.

Commissioner stated, not on any map anywhere, its passed here and then…

Several commissioners stated, it should

Commissioner stated, it should get on the computer anyway.

Commissioner stated, we don’t pass, we just make a recommendation so now your dealing with the commissioners and every town council.

Commissioner stated, it gets recorded, we sign the documents.

Commissioner stated, in our office its never been over there on the map and write down the change from R2 to R4.

Commissioner stated, its never been a requirement that somebody take it from approval phase to authenticating it on some document that would end up getting recorded.

Commissioner stated, once it gets recorded it ought to be changed on some kind of master map.

Commissioner stated, it ought to be changed on the computer right away. Now and Mr. Riley down in Lafayette…the hard copy maps, how often do they change the hard copy?

Commissioner stated, I believe they changed the hard copy every time. I can check on that again. I had talked to one of there planners maybe last week and I asked them how they did that and they have these mylar maps that they change. That’s my understanding. What they will do is drop in what the rezone is so lets say it was rezoned from A to L-1, they’ll show that it was zoned A to L-1 and show the new zone as L-1 and then they will put the date on there as to when that happened.

Commissioner stated, can you get in touch with whoever does their maps.

Commissioner stated, yea

Commissioner stated, technically your really going to have the county map and then every town is going to have to have a map. Otherwise you won’t be able to read it.

Commissioner stated, the lakes have their own maps and we used to update them once a year.

Joe Rogers stated, that was over 15 years ago. But what he is talking about is what your procedure requires that you do when you guys passed this new ordinance. It said you were going to have hard copies of maps and every time a zoning was changed it would be changed and initialed on that map. The problem that I see is, well I don’t know how you get those maps done but even with the computer, I don’t know how we would get from all these zonings that you’ve passed and somehow get those records to us so we know what to do the computer to get it current. But the computer is not official really.

Commissioner stated, what if we start now with the lakes map and take the map you’ve got…the last one that was updated, and just start from this point?

Joe Rogers stated, well the hard maps have R-5s on it which you guys don’t have anymore, they have R-6s on it. It’s the same as your RR is currently.

Commissioner stated, how do you find out when they come in for a building permit, how they are zoned.

Joe Rogers stated, you are guessing half the time. It is very, very difficult to tell.

Commissioner stated, I was in there several times when Diann was here several times when people would come in and ask that. She would walk over to those maps opened it up and said you’re an R2.

Joe Rogers stated, I think there was a lot of guessing going on.

Commissioner stated, that’s scary

Joe Rogers stated, yea

Joe Rogers stated, those maps in there do not even identify roads so what your trying to do is trying to identify a zoning classification by some kind of land mark. You are trying to find a land mark that you can find on the computer and then figure out how close this property is to that land mark and make judgment as to what it’s zoned. Now in certain cases where you’ve got 2thousand all A-1, it becomes pretty easy but when you’ve got a lot of these where its close to a borderline or something, your guessing as to what it really is.

Several people talking at the same time

Joe Rogers stated, I hear what you’re saying. I think it is as bad as we are saying. I mean there aren’t even L properties on those maps. All you have is an R5 on our surrounding lake property. All across the lake, Denny came and looked at it the other day, you have these R5 designations.

Commissioner stated, you’re talking about on the big maps.

Joe Rogers stated, yea on the big maps

Commissioner stated, I’m talking about on the computer.

Joe Rogers stated, oh on the computer. We haven’t really used the computer that much again according to Diann, the computer is not really accurate either so you kind of try to use both is what you try to do.

Commissioner stated, I think that is what she uses. When you have a rezoning, when it comes to us there is a diagram of the property and the surrounding property and I think that is printed off the computer.

Joe Rogers stated, yea that is printed off the GIS map though.

Commissioner stated, I can tell you that if I go down to Tippecanoe County and I go in there and I want to see a map, I sit down with a planner and they will turn their computer screen and show me.

Joe Rogers stated, for the GIS, we do the same thing. If someone comes to identify where the property is….but yet when you get to the zoning to the program, first of all it’s only on my computer. It’s not even accessible to the secretaries. I have to have a special password to be able to access that zoning map so you know I will use it as a reference frequently because if I go to the physical map, it’s so obscure and I hope that gives me directions but I really don’t know if it’s right or not. My own personal property I know it’s not right on it.

Commissioner stated, who supplied the software for the actual zoning program we are using in there now? Maybe we are not utilizing to it’s full potential or maybe we need to update that part of it and see if we can be able to do what we want to do with it.

Commissioner stated, if we knew who it was, we could contact them and see if were doing what is says we can do or if there is more we can do with it that we don’t really know or if we can buy new software that enhances what they already have.

Commissioner stated, I am assuming that that is Manatron because as I said, they told me that you could change the zoning.

Joe Rogers stated, if I had a 200 page catalog and said, for this parcel the zoning was changed from this to this, I could go onto the computer, find that parcel and I could change those zonings and I could upgrade that computer. I don’t know how much time and effort it would take but it could be done. Where do I get that information from the last 10 or 15 years. I don’t know what that magic number is.

Commissioner stated, if your going to have a hard copy of it, you actually need every section and every township in range and keep a hard copy there. That’s your base. The computer can’t be your base because the computer can crash and then your in trouble. If you have that on each township and on each section then that is your base to work off of.

Commissioner stated, if you use the latest map that you have and you start from this day on and upgrade them as we go, if there is an error between here and there and it shows up and you just correct it at the time? It looks like its going to be a chore to go back through all those.

Commissioner stated, you about have to if your going to bring it up to date.

Commissioner stated, if we just make sure from here on is correct…

Commissioner stated, but your not changing anything though so does it really matter if you go back that far because unless there doing something different, that property is going to stay what it is zoned anyway. Not everybody is going to come in here and rezone their properties to get them up to par.

Commissioner stated, if there is an issue, you can change it but I do think that we do need to have a map and it ought to be on the computer both and it ought to be accurate from what we do from this point on.

Commissioner stated. It doesn’t matter whether we do it or they do it, you still have to get all the information together.

Commissioner stated, we will have the information from now on won’t we?

Commissioner stated, we will from now on but…

Commissioner stated, it would almost be simpler to work it backwards and anyone who comes in to make changes this is what it’s got to be zoned now.

Commissioner stated, my other question is you said it is recorded when somebody rezones. What is that recorded with? The deed? So when someone comes in for a building permit, you make them go down to get a copy of the deed with the zoning on it.

Commissioner stated, I don’t think the zoning is on the deed.

Commissioner stated, it should be on the property record card.

Joe Rogers stated, I don’t believe that is true.

Commissioner stated, the paper work, every time one comes to us, we get the paper and we either sign that it is been rezoned or it is denied.

Commissioner stated, where does that paper go?

Commissioner stated, it goes back to the area plan office.

Joe Rogers stated, I’m just guessing that all of those notebooks on top of the filing cabinets…I’m guessing that that is where those papers are. I really don’t know because I haven’t looked, but I know they go back I think like 1992 or 1993. She’s got books that go back that far.

Commissioner stated, and there may be some more down stairs.

Joe Rogers stated, yea, I don’t know

Commissioner stated, Joe, every time they’ve done a rezoning here, they’ve been given a number.

Joe Rogers stated, yea, that’s a file number.

Commissioner stated, but you don’t know if they were approved or denied.

Joe Rogers stated, you would have to go through every file.

Commissioner stated, my recommendation might be Joe, to contact, when you get a chance, some of the executive directors like Sally. Maybe see how they update their maps and make sure what I’ve told you is correct.

Joe Rogers stated, I line up with Dave, I don’t think the process is difficult if you had a baseline. The problem is that the baseline we have is so old. We’ve talked about in this office already, every time you guys approve a zoning, our office does know about it.

Commissioner stated, they should go over to the map and make a mark on it.

Joe Rogers stated, yea, in theory that what should happen. You can’t do it with that map because that map doesn’t give you any of that detail but even in the computer, I mean we have the capability of doing it. I don’t think it’s the process that is the issue. I think its getting the baseline that’s the issue. How do we get something that’s current so that we can go from there.

Commissioner stated, Charlie when I here you talk about this, what concerns me is that somebody coming in wanting to put in a development out by the lake or something like this, basically having no idea what the zoning is and trying do that research and leg work and do all the things like that. I think you are compelled to bring up to date as far back as you need to go. I think its just the price you’ve got to pay for.

Commissioner stated, but if somebody wants to do that, why don’t you just bring them up to date at that time instead of trying to hunt down everything we’ve done over the last 15 years. Just start now and make sure.

Commissioner stated, instead of doing thousands, you do 100 a year.

Commissioner stated, I guess what I would be concerned with is delaying somebody while you brought everything up to speed because you would have to research it then. You would have to go back 15 years to find out if that zoning is accurate.

Commissioner stated, what if you just assume that it is not accurate.

Commissioner stated, if we start with the new map and then when somebody wants to verify it or do something like that. We really didn’t have an L-1 zoning, that’s what I’m hearing right?

Joe Rogers stated, on our maps there’s not.

Commissioner stated, if you go back to how we tried to write this ordinance and you take the town and you take maybe a mile outside of towns and circle that into the RR’s and then everything out farther than that would be….and try to work the system backwards instead of trying to recreate the system and then turn around and change it.

Commissioner stated, what if you change somebody’s zoning that doesn’t want it changed.

Commissioner stated, basically your not changing anybody’s zoning. You are stopping it from this point on and correcting it as you go forward. Everybody falls on to non compliance, that’s what we’ve written in the thing. If your not sure what your zoning is or whatever, if your in the wrong area and you are zoned this, unless you are changing something, you are going to run as being non compliant. Do you see what I’m saying? So your really not changing anybody’s zoning. Your just making a map saying this is what we are going to try to get to the next 10 or 20 years.

Commissioner stated, in my opinion, you need to have an accurate map.

Joe Rogers stated, if your not going to have an accurate hard map and if your not going to change the hard map, then you’ve got to change your ordinance because the ordinance requires that.

Commissioner stated, state statute requires that.

Commissioner stated, on the state statute, is it the map that your trying to go to or what you currently are? Because there is a big difference.

Commissioner stated, how do you know what you are going to go to, things change all the time. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but my thought is that you need something that is accurate for what you have right now and if you decide in the future to zone, then you know what your starting from and you have to keep in mind this board, when you consider a rezone, part of your consideration is how does that fit within the area around. If you don’t know what the area around is zoned, how do you make that determination?

Commissioner stated, maybe I can give you a better idea what I’m talking about. If you go up an down both sides of the lake right now ok and we talked about this the other night. To me everything from that waters edge to that first road should be L-1.

Commissioner state, but its not

Commissioner stated, I know its not but that’s what we are really trying to get to right because that is technically your lake front.

Commissioner stated, my thought is what if your property is not L-1 and you don’t want it to L-1

Commissioner stated, it doesn’t matter, we are trying to fit the pieces together and so if we know if we are going to take the waters edge and make that all the L-1 category, because that’s basically what its defined at in here, then that stops an I-1 or an I-2 against that. Same with Shroaders out in Reynolds, that is going to be an A-2. It’s not zoned that right now but with the density of homes in that vicinity, it will be that.

Commissioner stated, you can’t just unilaterally change zones. There has to be a map

Commissioner stated, but were not changing them, this is what were saying that this is what we are wanting to do in the future on how were trying to put the pieces together.

Commissioner stated, I understand that and I understand that’s part of the comprehensive plan as you’ve got a vision and I get that. I guess my point is, I think you have to have a accurate map that shows what the zones are now. Will it be perfect, probably not, I mean when your talking about going 15 years back, there will be mistakes. My opinion is that you want accurate maps going forward so that when somebody comes in to Joe and says hey I want to rezone this to I-2. Joe can look at the map and say well, you are entitled to ask for a rezone but my recommendation is going to be X based on these factors. That in turn helps you all decide ok. My experience in doing rezones, one of the first things we look at is what are the areas around. How does this fit in with these areas around.

Commissioner stated, what if Joe makes the current map he is using, takes and makes that hard copy match the computer.

Joe Rogers stated, you can’t physically do that. You’ve got to go in and look at those hard maps and I will pull up some GIS for you. You can’t physically change those maps right now to be accurate. They are so old. They don’t have roads on them, they don’t have thousands and thousands of houses on them.

Commissioner stated, what’s it going to take to do that?

Commissioner stated, have you talked to Eric about what we can do about the GIS?

Joe Rogers stated, I think he probably has some ideas on what you can do to get the computer I suppose improved but my goal has been to….

Commissioner stated, the computer ought to be able to interface with the GIS to produce some kind of hard copy map.

Joe Rogers stated, oh I see, I would have to ask him that question.

Commissioner stated, the assessor has got the map over here. Can’t we get it in to that system somehow and maybe not.

Commissioner stated, there has got to be a way to get what’s on the computer to some sort of hard copy.

Joe Rogers stated, where does the zoning information that’s on the computer come from?

Commissioner stated, it sounds like to me we have got to get more information about how this can proceed with all the different pieces of it.

Commissioner stated, I don’t know if it would make since to try to contact some of these firms and say here is our situation. What do you charge, ballpark for that? Just to get an understanding.

Commissioner stated, that’s what we had talked about, getting a second opinion from HMTB just to kind of check some of prices and we can get HMTB rep up here to kind of explain.

Commissioner stated, with that asterisk on there, they are want you to have all that information on a computer where they can just take it off the computer.

Commissioner stated, we are still going to have to do the work.

Commissioner stated, its got to get done.

Commissioner stated, there are a lot of things in that ordinance that we need to change too how ever long its going to take us to change it. Even tonight on L-1, we’ve always had the front of an L-1 property as being the lakeside but it’s not written that way in the new ordinance.

Joe Rogers stated, I don’t have any problem talking to Eric and finding out if there is a way or what could be done to go from the GIS to some hard map. He may have some good ideas of what could be done there. Then the point would be is ok then it would be a matter of us figuring out how to update the computer so the maps can be printed off.

Commissioner stated, that would be a starting point.

Commissioner stated, I know all the maps that we got with the rezoning request were printed off the computer.

Joe Rogers stated, I don’t think Diann went in and updated the computer when you gave her a zoning change.

Commissioner stated, that’s why I asked, where did the maps come from in the first place. She always went to the hard copies

Commissioner stated, when I was in the office, she always went to them hard copies, she opened that up and said…”this is a B this is an A…

Joe Rogers stated, she did not trust the computer, she told us numerous times.

Commissioner stated, she got the print out off the GIS but she didn’t get the zoning off of that. She got the zoning off of the hard map hanging on the wall.

Commissioner stated, well I guess Joe see what you can find out as I said we can talk to a couple other firms and have HMTB come up and kind of explain what they could do for us.

Commissioner stated, and how much it would cost, cause it doesn’t really explain. With the asterisks, it’s probably going to cost a bunch.

Commissioner stated, and that is what were scared of when we say that, 55 thousand we could see that doubling once they got into it.

Joe Rogers stated, I think we can try to take a look at our office as to how do we set up a procedure so that when a rezone does go through, we do get the computer updated but she has never told me that she had the capability but physically actually doing it, I am not aware of her actually physically doing it. I will let you know what I find out.

Commissioner stated, next business would be the gentleman who wanted to talk to us about L-1 zoning.

Joe Rogers stated, you are probably aware that the old zoning book defined L-1 properties as the…it really didn’t do it very well under…..I gave you a copy of the page where it says front yard and it defines the front yard in L-1 as being adjacent to the water way. It doesn’t define the frontage that way. That’s the only place in there that I think you see that’s where it tells you that the water front is the front of an L-1 property. But that has certainly been the practice, that is what everybody understands that the water is at the front until we ran into an issue with the new zoning ordinance which does not define the water as the front. The only place in the new ordinance where there is even a reference is in appendix B where it tells you what your front setbacks are, it says setback from water is such and such but there is no where in there where it defines that the water is going to be considered the front for an L-1 property. If you look at the page that I gave you here which has the little drawing on it and you look at lot frontage, it says that is should be considered the portion nearest the street right of way, well right now that is how we have to look at lake properties so I am recommending that you guys direct Kevin to generate the changes that can then be presented to the board and to the county commissioners that would effectively go back and redefine L-1 as having the water as the frontage and I have given you some recommended wording.

Commissioner stated, if we did that then we have an issue of the back yard being to close to the road and that was something we were going to look at also.

Commissioner stated, yea and we might want to add to that if the back yard is against the county road or something, that the setback is different because now an accessory building can be 4 foot off the county if there is no designated right of way because the hardest portion of the road, blacktop, is what the property line is because there so designation so conceivably if you have a lake property, you could have a garage 4 foot off of that so you somehow we need to address that so if it is up against the county road, there needs to be more setback.

Joe Rogers stated, I agree that that has been an issue but they did change the setbacks on the lake property both front and back right? On an L-1 property its 20 feet. The side setbacks are 6 but the rear is 20 but where is the rear and where is the front?

Kevin Riley stated, I can tell you from my personal experience in the zoning before I became hired as attorney is that is what was relied on in telling me that the waterside was your front yard. It was just that little number there. I didn’t agree with it.

Commissioner stated, it doesn’t matter, if you read this, because it says minimum yard setback requirements and it says front yard setbacks, if you are adjacent to federal state highway, 80 foot, if you are adjacent to a rural highway its 35 feet and if you are adjacent to an urban street or from the waterside, its 30 foot on both so it really doesn’t make a difference.

Joe Rogers stated, but is has an impact in other areas. When you go to 4.5.2 and you are talking about non conforming lots and that they are talking about where is continues frontage. If the lake is not defined as the front, then when you go to argue that case and try to tell someone where there continuous frontage is, you have to go to the roadside even though it’s a lake property which is what we ran into.

Commissioner stated, can you do what we did on the streets and classify the lake as a street. Lake or river as a road so now they have two fronts. We did that in all these towns. There are some houses in town that have 3 fronts.

Kevin Riley stated, I will tell you again just from my experience, there is a part of this ordinance that says if you have a corner lot that has two streets then you have two fronts. My client had a corner lot that was on the water so he had 3 fronts by your ordinance. Looking at it from the outside that doesn’t make much sense to me to say that a lot would have 3 fronts.

Commissioner stated, you are going to make some of the lots on the lake pretty small by making them be 32 feet off the road and the…

Kevin Riley stated, you are probably going to see a lot of variances.

Commissioner stated, in all reality probably 20 foot off the road is enough.

Commissioner stated, if you write that you are probably going to have to put the wording in that the lake or river is the only front because the current ordinance says all roads are fronts. So if you put wording in there that you want the lake to be front, now you’ve got two fronts if you’ve got a house that has a county road and the lake and there in between it because our ordinance states all roads are a frontage.

Joe Rogers stated, I think the way the old ordinance handled it, Kevin you can tell me if I’m off base here but in those paragraphs, it listed that lake fronts were an exception to that rule and that when you had a lake front property it was the water that would be considered the front regardless.

Commissioner stated, I don’t remember seeing that.

Kevin Riley stated, I don’t know if it said that in the old ordinance either but I think that is what Joe has said here.

Commissioner stated, is that you want to exempt them from any roads from being a front.

Kevin Riley stated, what I understand you as saying is that in the instance of an L-1 lot, the water is the front yard is the yard, regardless of what these other provisions state.

Joe Rogers stated, right and in the old ordinance under front yard it talked about being bounded by the frontline but it said the exception is the L-1 district where the front yard is that area adjacent to the waterway. Now my only problem with the old ordinance was that it clarified it there but it didn’t clarify it up here where what your talking about, where it had frontage of lot or the front roads your talking about. I’m saying lets just clear it all up, lets just apply that same application to every place so there is never confusion as to what is the front of the lake property.

Commissioner stated, so do you want Kevin to write that up for us?

Joe Rogers stated, that is what I’m asking that you guys consider to do.

Commissioner stated, so what does that make the road?

Joe Rogers stated, the road is the rear on a lake front property.

Commissioner stated, I don’t think we want to do that.

Commissioner stated, I don’t want to do that because now you have just discriminated against everybody in town that has to put up with 2 or 3 fronts. Why is it fair for you to do it on the lake and not in a town. If I live in town, I have to get a variance setback because I got two fronts. I’m on a corner lot.

Joe Rogers stated, what I was attempting to do is to bring the current ordinance in line with past practice and past practice has been, am I not correct Denny, past practice the water was the front and roadside was the rear.

Denny stated, yea

Joe Rogers stated, that’s all I was trying to do not whether if you guys have a problem with that issue, that is beyond where I was going. I was just trying to clarify it.

Commissioner stated, if you use the water as front, the rear setback is 20 feet and if your in town, the rear setback is 6 for an accessory building I think.

Commissioner stated, but what’s the front?

Commissioner stated, the front is 30

Commissioner stated, to me that principle structure ought to be 30 over on the L-1 then. What were running into problems with now anyway and we find it all the time is all these little roads going behind these houses. There is no room in there. So if we are talking about building new structures, we need to get some space in there.

Charles Mellon stated, well you need a seat on BZA so you can tell them people they can’t do anything on their lots.

Commissioner stated, you have precedence for allowing things like that.

Commissioner stated, that was void when writing the new book. Precedence was thrown out the window.

Commissioner stated, that’s kind of what we’ve been doing on some of these. We’ve been requiring them go give that right of way to make that….

Joe Rogers stated, right, we need to straighten that out.

Commissioner stated, so what does the board want to do to straighten that out? Do you want to straighten this one out first and then work on that one?

Commissioner stated, if were going to have L-1 with the lake as the front and the road as the rear, then we need to put in there that they cannot build within so many feet of the edge of the pavement of the road.

Commissioner stated, Joe we talked about this the other day too. Do we want to delete that “Other bodies of water in White County.”

Joe Rogers stated, oh yea, I don’t know exactly where we went with that discussion but I do remember.

Kevin Riley stated, yea, I’m just kind of trying to handle one of these things at a time. There’s a lot of stuff that needs to be looked at. Obviously I will do what you want but I’m trying to handle the big issues first.

Commissioner stated, I think were getting nowhere real quick right here.

Several talking at the same time.

Kevin Riley stated, let me ask a question, I know the BZA the past few months has had just sleuths of variance requests. Are the primarily caused by the concern of over the front yard setback that is caused by the water?

Commissioner stated, they want to build right on the line.

Commissioner stated, we are seeing a lot more of where they are wanting to put accessories structures.

Commissioner stated, Dave your sitting back there being quiet, what do you think?

Dave stated, I go with Dave Scott, I think just do that. I don’t think its discriminating against anybody.

Commissioner stated, I think that’s what we have got to deal with her tonight the first thing. Then if we want to deal with the other one, we can deal with it on another night.

Commissioner stated, I don’t want to muddy the waters but there is one other thing about front yard when it comes to the lake. If your SFLECC line isn’t at the waterfront and its up 20 feet from the water front, then your 50 feet off the water.

Commissioner stated, it can also be the other way, your SFLECC line can be 20 feet out in the water.

Commissioner stated, I’m just saying that is a part of it and so when someone is being advised as to what they can do, that is something very important that they you know…its really isn’t just waters edge.

Commissioner stated, so the front is actually 30 feet from your property line.

Joe Rogers stated, yes, were talking as if the water is the property line.

Commissioner stated, I’ll make a motion to have Kevin Riley write that up.

Commissioner stated, second

Commissioner stated, raise your right hand

Commissioner stated, I’m confused, if the line is out in the water, how the hell can you build anything….wouldn’t it be better to use the front of it, the one that’s on the roadside and then we wouldn’t have to worry about all this?

Commissioner stated, you would still have to worry about it because your still going to get them in because most of the lake properties are situated such that unless they are just on a huge lot, which is unusual, there going to come to you for a front or rear variance.

Joe Rogers stated, how do you put a seawall in if you have to be 20 foot back for a accessory structure.

Commissioner state, in some cases you don’t

Commissioner stated, you get a permit from SFLECC probably

Joe Rogers stated, but do you still have to meet the setback?

Commissioner stated, it’s not unusual to see them encroaching on SFLECC property anywhere from a foot to 10 feet.

Several talking at once

Commissioner stated, so we got that handled.

Next business:

Commissioner stated, have we got anything done so far on the trailers?

Kevin Riley stated, we are at a point right now where there are still a few…..

Commissioner stated, should we just e-mail this to everybody so they can look it over?

Commissioner stated, what I would like to do is since we have that committee together, talk about it if the committee agrees that its fine and they want to go with it, then it would be on the next meetings agenda and it would be distributed to all the board members in advance so they can look at it.

Commissioner stated, can’t we distribute it to them in advance so they can look at it in case they have some other thing that they might see that we don’t?

Kevin Riley stated, well that’s something we can talk about at the herring. The idea is that you have a committee together, the committee presents a recommendation to the entire board. The entire board will talk about it at the public herring. The public will be present and able to make comments for or against and at that point you may adopt the ordinance as written, you may deny it or you may tell me…”We want you to make these changes and come at the next meeting and present it.”

Commissioner stated, can we just have a committee meeting or do we have an executive director meeting?

Kevin Riley stated, do you mean an executive committee meeting?

Commissioner stated, last week we had that meeting and the public was there and all that. Cant we just write it as a committee meeting with the 4 of us there and do it that way without having the public present or does the public have to be present.

Kevin Riley stated, no when the committee is appointed by the board, then it has to be a public herring. That is why it was a public herring.

Commissioner stated, so when is that going to be presented?

Kevin Riley stated, I would estimate that that is something that could be presented at the next meeting assuming that we can meet and come to an agreement on the language and get it on the agenda in time for the herring.

Commissioner stated, I think the meetings all going to depend on your schedule.

Kevin Riley stated, yea and you know were talking about 3 or 4 weeks time that we have so I don’t think from my end it will be an issue. I do think there probably needs to be more discussion to make sure that what’s there is what you want to present.

Kevin Riley stated, provided that the committee can meet and come up with a recommendation, that recommendation would go before this full board at the next public herring and you have the opportunity to vote on it then. Any change to the language of the ordinance ultimately has to be approved by the commissioners.

Commissioner stated, is that all the business we have?

Commissioner stated, what about the setup where old subdivisions that don’t have lots sold have to conform to the new ones. Have we made a move on that yet? That’s got to be stopped.

Commissioner stated, what was that again Don?

Commissioner stated, the old subdivision started in may that if they didn’t meet the new ordinance, then they would be null and void and they would have to go by the new ordinance.

Commissioner stated, if you have two continuous lots owned by the same owner that haven’t been built on.

Joe Rogers, we went through and defined that that’s the case if you have 2 parcels that are owned by the same party then there considered one parcel for the purposes of this ordinance. If you have 2 parcels that are owned by different parties, then they are not. They are treated differently and I would assume that its up to this board to do with exactly what it’s doing with the trailer and that is assign a committee to address that issue. Put forth a recommendation to resolve that problem because it is a big problem and then make a recommendation that comes to this board and as far as I know there hasn’t been a committee set up yet.

Commissioner stated, that needs to be done. That is going to create a problem.

Kevin Riley stated, what I would recommend is that you put together the committee, that way it can be just a committee meeting. Because if the board appoints it then you have the public herring requirement for the special committee meeting. Now you would still public herring obviously for final approval and consideration but at least the executive committee part of it does not have to be a public meeting.

Joe Rogers stated, at a maximum of 5 people?

Several said 4 people

Kevin Riley stated, my position would be that you would want to appoint that board.

Joe Rogers stated, ok

Commissioner stated, do we have anything else: new business, old business?

Commissioner stated, I make a motion that we adjourn

Commissioner stated, second

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,


Donald W. Ward, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission


Joseph W. Rogers, Director

White County Area Plan Commission



Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________