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The White County Area Plan Commission met Monday, April 17, 2000, at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were: Ray Butz, Charles Anderson, Ron Pollock, Stephen Fisher, Don Ward, Scott Kyburz, Gregory Bossaer and Rick Raderstorf. Also attending were Attorney Altman and Director Diann Weaver. 

Visitors Attending were: Rex Hendryx, Randy Stearns, James M. Pinkerton, Jarmin F. Anker, J. Hall, Tim Rosi, Peter Rosi, Fred & Shirley Boessel, Robert Mount, Mark & Marilyn Young, Tim Collins and Ted Nichols.



The meeting was called to order by President Charles Anderson and roll call was taken. Ron Pollock made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of February 14 and March 13, 2000. Motion was seconded by Scott Kyburz and carried unanimously.



#706 New Hope Baptist Church; Requesting to rezone from I-1 to R-2 on lot #17 in the Lake Addition to the Town of Wolcott. The property is located on Market Street, take Range Street to Market Street, turn to the right and the property is located approximately 3 blocks on the South side of the road.


President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing the request?


Randy Stearns stated, I’m a Deacon member of the New Hope Baptist Church.


President Anderson asked, is this your committee?


Randy Stearns stated, yes, building committee.


President Anderson asked, is there anyone in the audience with any questions? Do the Commissioners have any questions about this request?


Director Weaver stated, we have not received any calls in the office on this.


President Anderson stated, let's go ahead and vote.


The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to Wolcott Town Council for their action. 

President Anderson asked, do you know when that meeting is?


Director Weaver asked, Scott, do you?


Scott Kyburz stated, I’m not for sure.


An audience member stated, I think that it’s coming up this next Monday or Tuesday. 

Scott Kyburz stated, yes.


President Anderson stated, they have the final say on that, so you need to be there. 



#707 Dennis Bartlett, Tommy & Ramona Bartlett and Eugene & Sandra Clawson; Requesting to rezone from A-1 to R-2 on 1.278 Acres. The property is located East of Brookston at 10743 S. 100 E.


President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing this request?


Rex Hendryx stated, I’m representing the Bartletts.


President Anderson asked, does anyone in the audience have any questions about this request? Do the Commissioners have any questions?


Director Weaver stated, again, we have not received any calls on this in the office.


President Anderson stated, let's go ahead and vote.


The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to the County Commissioners for their action.


Attorney Altman stated, that will be next Monday.


Director Weaver stated, no, that will be 2 weeks.


Attorney Altman stated, it will be 2 weeks from today, at 8:30 in the morning, right Director Weaver?


Director Weaver stated, yes, it would be May 1st.


Attorney Altman stated, they have final say on that. 



#708 Jim Barna Log Systems Midwest Inc.; Requesting to rezone from A-1 to B-2 on 19.588 Acres and 3.00 Acres. The property is located in West Point Township on the North side of C.R. 600 S., approximately ½ mile West of C.R. 800 W.


President Anderson asked, do we have anyone here representing this request?


Peter Rosi stated, I own Jim Barna and this is my brother Tim.


President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions about this request? Does anyone in the audience have any questions?


Attorney Altman stated, I guess essentially you have an area here that has a very high water table and a pond there. Do you want to tell us about some idea about your proposal and what you propose to do with this lot.


Peter Rosi stated, I don’t know about the water table being real high. It’s just, initially, it’s just a water hole dug by the interstate when putting up the road so it’s just basically a water hole. What we are going to be doing there is building a log home model that will be visible from the interstate and getting it out of my garage. That’s about it, it’s pretty simple, we’re just moving it over to the interstate. The reason we want to move it there is because there is already a couple of businesses there so it will help draw. It’s got a gas station at Wayfara that has just been modified and there is a Dairy Queen there and that’s why we want to build our office there because that gives us a little bit more of a commercial site as opposed to where I’m at. I have been working out of a separate building by house for the last 5 years and as good as it is, it’s just a residential site and some people are kind of hesitant to come over there. You look like a mom and pop operation instead of a business and we’re trying to change that a little bit.


Ron Pollock asked, isn’t there a pretty good sized lake in that area?


Peter Rosi stated, yes there is, probably about three quarters of the property is a lake and then there are different parts, one end I believe that it’s the South end that has, it looks like about 5 acres worth of land on it.


Ron Pollock asked, you’re going to put some building up there?


Peter Rose stated, I don’t know about some but at least one, that’s the goal.


Attorney Altman asked, obviously it’s not to have homes or anything at all like that, it’s just to have a display, an office?


Peter Rosi stated, this will be a completely commercial site, we will build, our model will be a home but it’s not going to be designed to be sold.


Attorney Altman asked, or occupied?


Peter Rosi stated, no.


Attorney Altman stated, you know that would be against the requirements of the ordinance.


Peter Rosi stated, absolutely,.


Attorney Altman stated, it can not be done. I just want to make sure, sometimes people later on will sell it and later on won’t come in this case.


Peter Rosi stated, no, we have discussed this quite a bit with Director Weaver and she came out there. We just wanted to make sure that we were making the right decisions in how we were doing it so we have been working with the ladies in the office to be sure that we’re taking the proper steps and asking for the correct zoning to be used.


President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any other questions? If not let's go ahead and vote.


Steve Fisher asked, do you need the whole 19 acres for the business or is this the side of the lake?


Tim Rosi stated, the property is actually a piece that the trucking company had and we have been looking for a piece of property for a while. 

Peter Rosi stated, it was either buy it all, or none.


Attorney Altman stated, obviously, this is on an Interstate Interchange, or very near it. On or very near a major highway or county blacktop.


President Anderson stated, other businesses in the area.


Attorney Altman stated, other businesses in the area do have the visibility that you’re looking for there.


Tim Rosi stated, we’re trying to keep our business in White County we have built it up over the last 5 years and we’re doing pretty good and we want to keep it in the County because we like working here.


Charlie Mellon stated, it would be a good addition to White County because they have built one up there on the county line past our farm, East down towards the river, nice big log mansion on the edge of the woods for Mrs. Ledford and her son.


With no further discussion the Board voted.


The results of the vote were as follows: 8 affirmative and 0 negative. This will be presented to County Commissioners for their action. 

Attorney Altman stated, that will be 2 weeks from today at 8:30 in the morning right here for their final decision on it.


Peter Rosi asked, should we come here then?


Attorney Altman stated, I tell people that if they want a positive answer they should be here. 



#248 Nichols Farms Inc.; Requesting approval of a 39 lot subdivision to be known as Deer Run Estates on 26.560 Acres. The property is located in Union Township on the East side of C.R. 300 E., approximately ¼ of a mile north of C.R. 225 N.


President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing this request?


Ted Nichols was representing the request.


President Anderson asked, do we have anyone in the audience with any questions about this request? Do the Commissioners have any questions about this request?


Attorney Altman asked, has it been changed Ted, since you and I have talked? Has this been modified?


Ted Nichols stated, no, talking about that access on the road in there. Jim Milligan said maybe we would drop off the North two lots and then that would only have 2 lots coming on to Road 300 that way. He didn’t want to change his plot, I guess, to tell you the truth about it. Do you see what I mean there? Drop the 2 North lots off.


Don Ward asked, lots #1 and #2?


Ted Nichols stated, yes, and then these here can come on to this road here and you would have these two here come out on here.


Attorney Altman stated, what I had talked to you about, for the Board and the record, is with Lots #38 and #39. He would access those through Bambi Court and from the East he would eliminate 2 lots coming off of County Road 300, that way and minimize the traffic flow. That’s what I was talking to him about, again, for the record.


Ted Nichols stated, it would still be the same, there will be 2 lots coming out, if you went like he was wanting to stay right?


Attorney Altman stated, yes. Again, for the record, lots #1 and #2, why I didn’t talk about putting them through Deer Run Drive and a road that goes up to lots #1 and #2 on the East side was they have an open drain that is going to come through in that area, right Ted?


Ted Nichols stated, yes.


Attorney Altman stated, and that would make it nearly impossible to drive that way. That’s why I didn’t suggest the modification as to lots #1 & #2 coming that way. Now he’s talking about taking them off of his subdivision and then probably access them coming with the rest of your ground some day when you subdivide it. 


Ted Nichols stated, probably, if we ever do.


Attorney Altman stated, if you ever do.


Ted Nichols stated, I don’t know how fast it will grow. I have already talked to Steve Brooke and Ron Schmierer, see we are going to have to have a pipe or structure under County Road 300 to take care of that water too.


Attorney Altman stated, tell them about that, what the drainage setup is on that, what you shared with me.


Ted Nichols stated, there is that little open ditch that we’re going to…


Don Ward asked, this one?


Ted Nichols stated, yes, then we’re going to get out there and one lot from County Road 300, send it South down there a ways underneath County Road 300, there is a pretty good size pipe. Also, we will have an open ditch on the South side to take care of some surface water too plus, there will probably be a 12” tile or whatever. Then a lateral running North so each lot would have a perimeter drain in too. The ones on the North, along the ditch, I just figured that we would just drain them into the ditch.


Don Ward asked, what are you going to do here, are you going to come down here?


Ted Nichols stated, yes, on down there.


Don Ward asked, and cross?


Ted Nichols stated, yes.


Don Ward asked, just keep coming down?


Ted Nichols stated, yes.


Greg Bossaer asked, then where does it go, once it goes across the road?


Ted Nichols stated, Kellenburger Ditch, that big ditch there.


Rick Raderstorf asked, this matches up now with that structure that’s under the road?


Ted Nichols stated, no, it will have to be a new structure.


Rick Raderstorf asked, where is that old structure?


Don Ward stated, it’s South of there.


Ted Nichols stated, it’s South a little bit. They were already figuring on reposting that anyway.


Rick Raderstorf stated, that’s not in very good shape.


Ted Nichols stated, not really.


Rick Raderstorf stated, that’s at the end of that open ditch where the Kellenburger ends there.


Ted Nichols stated, on up, Kellenburger Ditch is on up a ways..


Attorney Altman asked, and the Kellenburger Ditch, again for the record, is on the West side of County Road 300 East, right?


Ted Nichols stated, yes.


Attorney Altman stated, again, just to make the record straight.


Ted Nichols stated, they dipped that out last fall, on the end there.


Don Ward asked, are you going to run a tile along here?


Ted Nichols stated, yes, then a lateral outside.


Don Ward asked, on the South side and then lateral it back?


Ted Nichols stated, yes.


Don Ward stated, up the easement and pick up the perimeter drains.


Ted Nichols stated, then those ones along the ditch, we just figured on taking them into the ditch. But, every lot will have to have a perimeter drain.


Rick Raderstorf asked, are you going to have a pond on this? A retention pond?


Ted Nichols stated, we hope that those ditches will be big enough. I don’t know yet, I’m not 100% sure what we will have to do on that yet. Whatever it takes to be adequate. I had Mr. Milligan take shots on that before I bought that and that water can all go that way.


Don Ward asked, it could go West?


Ted Nichols stated, yes, it could go West.


Don Ward stated, it looks like it has plenty of contour.


Ted Nichols stated, it has plenty of fall, supposedly.


Don Ward stated, you have a swale right through there, see this is 682’ and that’s 682’ so I assume that this is higher and this is higher, so that’s going to drain.


Ted Nichols stated, Jim Milligan did this for me.


Steve Fisher asked, what is the deal with lot #14 and #15 there? Is that a half cul-de-sac?


Greg Bossaer stated, it’s a turn around.


Attorney Altman stated, I assume that is a turn around until they go across the bridge. Ted also on that bridge, do you want to talk about the reservation of easement use on that?


Ted Nichols stated, yes, maybe someday put a pipe in there. Jim says we already have right-of-way clear to that ditch anyway. I asked him about that.


Attorney Altman stated, I’m just saying to you, the applicant, I want him to make sure that he had the right to be able to get across the South side of that road, once he dedicated this road and those lots for his bridge.


Ted Nichols stated, there again, if we ever have any across there I don’t know.


Attorney Altman stated, maybe not but, you have to be ready.


Ted Nichols stated, right.


Don Ward asked, you consider this a dead end street until….


Ted Nichols stated, yes, see we have done away with that wooded area over there, we just left it.


Attorney Altman asked, this does not effect any of it?


Ted Nichols stated, no, it doesn’t.


Attorney Altman stated, in part of it.


Don Ward asked, you can also go East, if you want to right? With your road?


Ted Nichols stated, that’s wooded area over there, that’s not rezoned.


Steve Fisher asked, you’re keeping the street on lots #38 and #39 and you’re not going to have it between lots #3 and #37, is that right? You’re going to keep this roadway here as your access in?


Ted Nichols stated, we will come in right here and do away with these two lots, yes.


Steve Fisher asked, you’re still going to have this right in here?


Ted Nichols stated, these will have to come out here.


Steve Fisher asked, but, that road will not be there that goes to it?


Ted Nichols stated, that’s a waterway. That’s a ditch.


Steve Fisher stated, pardon me, I was reading it wrong.


Ted Nichols stated, that’s a pretty good little ditch there.


Steve Fisher stated, I thought that was roadway coming out of there when I looked at it.


Attorney Altman asked, a couple of things, the ditch that is a North boundary of this subdivision, is a private ditch, as I understand it right?


Ted Nichols stated, yes.


Attorney Altman stated, so that is why he doesn’t have the 75’ drainage easement setback that is allowed on most ditches, it’s the public ditch. Just so you understand that. He does have an easement mark on there but, it isn’t the 75’ easement marked on the plats that I have seen.


Ted Nichols stated, of course also we will have a pretty decent little ditch on the back side to take care of some surface water too. Plus about a 12” tile with 6 ones running North, well, I don’t know definitely something on that order.


Attorney Altman stated, again, walking it through, lots on the North will be serviced by the direct drain with a tile to that.


Ted Nichols stated, it may be that we will have to have a little retention on that lot there, that I don’t know yet what we have to have to make it right.


Attorney Altman asked, the other thing is you’re going to have a drain between lots #4 and lot #3, right? Open drain coming through?


Don Ward stated, yes, I think that is right.


Attorney Altman asked, and it will go in-between probably lots #37 and #38 and go across County Road 300, right?


Don Ward stated, I think that it’s lots #38 and #39, Jerry.


Attorney Altman stated, okay, lots #38 and #39 and that will allow this all to drain into the Kellenburger Ditch which is on the West side of County Road 300.


Ted Nichols stated, they did dig that out, cleaned that out last fall.


Attorney Altman stated, the other thing is, again, just walking through the drainage. He will drain the South lots, an open drain along the border of the South lots, and put a tile to have tile drained to every one of the lots on the South side of Deer Run Drive right? Ted, am I quoting you right?


Ted Nichols stated, well, where that big tile is clear across the South end and then the lateral will…


Attorney Altman stated, a big tile then, not an open drain.


Ted Nichols stated, but going North, probably a 6” lateral.


Rick Raderstorf stated, that 12” will have to go through your pond, retention pond.


Ted Nichols stated, that’s what I was saying, we may have to have some retention. I was hoping that the ditches would be big enough that we would not have too much. We may have to have a little. Whatever we have to have.


Attorney Altman stated, I guess while we’re on the drainage, this is all subject to being approved by the White County Draining Board and a detailed plat being brought back to us for our approval, on the secondary plat too. So we’re talking about what their proposing but it still has to be approved by the Drainage Board and by us as being adequate and sufficient.


Ted Nichols stated, that’s the reason why I said whatever is adequate, it is going to have to be approved later on anyway.


Don Ward stated, we should see on the final plat how the roads are, drainage too so we know what direction it’s going.


Steve Fisher stated, it sounds like….


President Anderson stated, final plat will have all of the changes with the lots that you’re going to shut down on this too.


Attorney Altman stated, lots #1 and #2 coming off and if there is a pond necessary, it’s going to have to take out some lots.


Ted Nichols stated, probably, maybe that will be in the Southwest corner, probably.


Attorney Altman stated, I understand and that’s something that you would have to modify pending drainage approval.


Ted Nichols stated, yes, I realize that.


Attorney Altman stated, the other thing is, as I understood lots #3 and #27 would only access off of Deer Run Drive.


Ted Nichols stated, yes.


Director Weaver stated, lots #3 and #37.


Attorney Altman stated, lots #3 and #37. In other words, they wouldn’t get a driveway that goes on County Road 300.


Ted Nichols stated, yes, they would come out on that Deer Run Drive.


Don Ward stated, they would probably want to do that anyway.


Attorney Altman stated, I understand but I think that we should restrict it to that. Keep them limiting the number of driveways on the county roads.


Ron Pollock asked, is the septic system going to handle all of this?


Attorney Altman stated, obviously it has to, if it doesn’t they’re not approved.


Ron Pollock asked, and wells?


Attorney Altman stated, that’s right.


Ted Nichols stated, that would be something else, they will determine that. Which I don’t think will be any problem. 


Attorney Altman stated, obviously, if they get the drainage in there that’s the answer to your questions because, the size of the lots meets. Right Director Weaver?


Director Weaver stated, yes.


Attorney Altman stated, the requirements of our ordinance.


Director Weaver stated, yes.


Ted Nichols stated, I like that big ditch running along the road there and then the other ditch there, at least we have something to start with, to start drainage out of there. I have had enough experience now that if you don’t have some drainage in the subdivision, you have a lot of problems.


Steve Fisher asked, we’re just doing a primary tonight subject to the…


Attorney Altman stated, that’s right.


Don Ward asked, are they going to be able to have basements in there?


Ted Nichols stated, I don’t know, I can’t answer that. I would imagine that if they do they would have to have a sump pump.


Attorney Altman stated, I would say, I would sure recommend that they not have basements.


President Anderson asked, he has met all of the requirements of the subdivision?


Director Weaver stated, yes.


Attorney Altman stated, the drainage pending approval, the taking off of lots #1, #2 and lots #3, #37 going to Deer Run and the drainage as he proposed.


Don Ward asked, you don’t have your perk test yet do you?


Ted Nichols stated, yes, I had Louie Flora go through and take a pull of about 4 test just at random. They checked pretty good, #1 wasn’t too far and I just wanted to know something that was going to happen there. They all looked like they would have to have perimeter drain. Louie thought, well there again, I’m just using Louie’s opinion too, well no, I gave them to the soil annalists, Tom, and he seemed to think that they were pretty decent but I thought that yes we had better do those before we went too far.


Don Ward stated, yes, that’s one of the first things.


Attorney Altman stated, Don, we’re looking at that as a soil report and I thought that was part of my work out there and I just wasn’t sure. I spoke with him after I got that and he said that drainage if they get the drainage and all they would be okay, if they don’t get that then it’s a problem.


Ted Nichols stated, when I look at that, I don’t understand it.


Attorney Altman stated, basically that’s the colors of the soils Ted, the colors of the soils tell you, how gray it is means that it’s not been drained very well and it talks about it being pretty gray. If it’s tan, like the paneling here is well drained and you have a good chance to start with and that’s pretty gray soils so that means what you have imagined, it hasn’t been oxidized very much and therefore it needs more drainage.


Rick Raderstorf asked, is it set up in your by-laws to somehow maintain these open ditches?


Ted Nichols stated, yes, we will have to. We haven’t brought anything like that up yet but it will have to be brought up.


Don Ward asked, he didn’t give a written recommendation did he?


Ted Nichols stated, I don’t think so.


Attorney Altman stated, that’s why I called him was because he had the logs, results there but no real recommendations and that’s why I called him to get his recommendation. That’s what he said you have the drainage to the ditches and that’s what Ted says that Jim…


Don Ward asked, if you have the regular drain?


Attorney Altman stated, yes, that’s what Jim has told Mr. Nichols. This is a complex file and I want you to see that Don. If you don’t have that, Ted has some farm ground.


President Anderson asked, perimeter drain, is he talking about the perimeter drain around this, Don?


Director Weaver stated, that’s what I understand.


Attorney Altman stated, if you have that, if you don’t get that Ted has some farm ground.


President Anderson asked, does anyone else have any questions? If not, let's go ahead and vote.


Attorney Altman stated, again, just to set the record. We’re doing this subject to the Drainage Board approving it and the drainage coming back and we approve it. Obviously Ted says that it will drain, and his engineer says that it will drain, so you have to get that back to us and the other modifications on the lots.


Ted Nichols stated, okay.


Don Ward asked, do we need to state that on here?


Attorney Altman stated, I think that I would if I was writing it up I would.


Ron Pollock asked, what do you want us to state? Go through that again.


Attorney Altman stated, obviously, subject to the Drainage Board approval. Subject to the drainage coming back to us and us approving it, and if they are going to have any basements in there that again, that even takes more drainage, so that we would approve it. Lots #1and #2 coming off.


Greg Bossaer stated, I just put lot changes.


Attorney Altman stated, I understand, I’m just trying to recite what we’re doing. Lots #33 and #38 coming off of Deer Run only. He’s already said that he will give perimeter drain through tile to every lot either through his ditch or a tile to the Kellenburger ditch. Is there anything else Greg that I’m not reciting? Obviously, also to service the roads as you have mentioned Don, the drainage to service the roads. Subject to those recommendations and requirements I think that we’re basically voting with that, right?


President Anderson stated, right.


With out any further discussion the Board voted.


The Primary Approval Request for a 39 lot subdivision to be known as Deer Run Estates located in Union, was approved by a vote of 8 to 0, based on a finding of fact that the Standards of the Subdivision Control Ordinance have been met.


Attorney Altman stated, this is approved on primary or that it shall be granted upon the receipt of the additional requirement as required by the Commission as I recited.


Ted Nichols asked, as of right now it’s okay then?


Attorney Altman stated, as of right now you’re ready for Drainage Board approval and get it back to us so we can approve it for about the same thing.


Ted Nichols asked, when will I have to have that back, next month?


Attorney Altman stated, no, whenever you can get it back but the earliest will be next month. 



#249 Fred Boessel; Requesting approval of a 4 lot subdivision to be known as Boessel Subdivision on 2.45 Acres. The property is located in Monon Township on the Southwest corner of Monon Road and Bedford Bay Court, also known as 6464 N. Bedford Bay Court. 

President Anderson asked, do we have anyone representing this request?


Fred and Shirley Boessel was representing the request.


President Anderson asked, do we have any one in the audience with any questions about this request?


Ron Pollock asked, is that property right off of Monon Road? Where the businesses are?


Fred Boessel stated, by the bait shop.


Don Ward asked, I didn’t see the sign, did you see the sign?


Fred Boessel stated, yes, it’s up there, I had it put up on a post and someone…


Shirley Boessel stated, the wind knocked it down when we had that strong wind and I went out and put it up so it was only down for like a day.


Fred Boessel stated, the sign is still there, it’s right by the road.


Don Ward stated, I looked and didn’t find it but I found the property.


Ron Pollock asked, is that property where the for sale sign is up on the property?


Shirley Boessel stated, yes.


Ron Pollock asked, how are you going to get all of those people out of there?


Shirley Boessel stated, we will worry about that later.


Ron Pollock asked, do they just rent?


Shirley Boessel stated, yes.


Fred Boessel stated, yes, they just rent a place up there. They are almost like family and we almost cried to see any of them go but…


Shirley Boessel stated, we don’t advertise it, it’s just people that stay.


Fred Boessel stated, sometimes things like that just happen.


President Anderson asked, do the Commissioners have any questions?


Attorney Altman stated, I have a couple of questions, the area of lot #1 was subject to a variance and the variance indicated that the improvement on there was for a business, for a bait business and it was to be 26’ x 35’ in size. Obviously, the improvements on there and variance to the variance it is different than requested in the variance. The variance also called for a different size lot as such on where the bait shop was and if this gets approved that can no longer be used as a bait shop at all, in other words that can not be used as a business at all. You loose your variance is what you do. I just want to make sure that you understand that.


Fred Boessel stated, it was zoned commercial.


Attorney Altman stated, no, it wasn’t zoned commercial.


Director Weaver stated, yes it is.


Fred Boessel stated, sure it is.


Director Weaver stated, it’s zoned B-2.


Attorney Altman stated, okay but the variance that you got was not for this particular size of lot and if you get this approved this way you would loose your variance to be able to operate in accordance with the variance and that was as I understood if you could get this bait shop in that area.


Fred Boessel stated, I don’t really understand where the difference was in the size of the lot.


Attorney Altman stated, I just know that the original variance that you requested was for a lot that was 150’ from Monon Road to the end of it’s lot and this is only for 145’ and that is different enough that that would take away your variance. I did call your surveyor and tell him this because I noticed this as it came before us as a subdivision and I guess what I’m saying is I’m not saying that you can’t operate something in there. I’m telling you that it does eliminate your variance that you got some time ago and I would guess it would make it very difficult for you to operate that business on that lot.


Fred Boessel stated, we are probably not going to continue that way because my wife has been sick but how many feet different from the North to the South?


Attorney Altman stated, it’s about 5’.


Fred Boessel stated, about 5’.


Ron Pollock stated, he has 142’, it would be 18’. Is that 142’? 


Attorney Altman stated, I don’t know if that’s 100….


Don Ward stated, let’s read the legal description.


Attorney Altman stated, I’m not sure that I can read it.


Director Weaver stated, I’m not sure that I can either.


Ron Pollock asked, couldn’t he move that over 5’?


Attorney Altman stated, whatever it is, your original one called for on a plat 150’ from Monon Road on South.


Fred Boessel asked, what was the year on that?


Attorney Altman stated, apparently January 12, 1982.


Fred Boessel stated, yes. When he did this survey out there, that lot is 5’ farther South.


Attorney Altman stated, I guess what I’m saying to you that doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to change your subdivision but if you don’t change your subdivision then you loose your variance and you can’t run a business there and now one else could, according to the variance. Now, that doesn’t mean that every business that you use, maybe, might not be able to fit in there. I don’t say that but the one that you have the variance for you can’t use because you have a different lot there and that just eliminates that variance. That’s what I’m trying to say and that’s why I called Mr. Milligan 2 weeks ago to tell him the difference. I thought that maybe tonight we would have a plat that was 150’ rather than 142’ like what you’re saying there.


Don Ward stated, 145’.


Director Weaver stated, yes, you can read it on the original.


Attorney Altman stated, I thought that maybe that’s what they would do and they would save their variance so you have a choice if you want to change this and come back next month.


Fred Boessel asked, so we would have to move 5’ farther to change this?


Attorney Altman stated, 5’ farther South.


Jay Clawson asked, have you heard anything about the flood plain?


Director Weaver stated, no I have not heard anything about that.


Attorney Altman stated, the other thing, is apparently they have 3 dwellings on this lot #2 and obviously, if they are going to do that they would have to widdle it down to 1 per lot so that they come into compliance on the zoning point of view.


Ron Pollock stated, I wondered that too.


Director Weaver stated, also, I want to mention to the Board that this is in a flood area, Jim Milligan was suppose to have sent off a letter to the D.N.R. to get more information on that and I have not received anything yet.


Attorney Altman stated, I really think that we should see where that flood area goes in there before we go very much further.


President Anderson asked, so you don’t know where the flood line is?


Attorney Altman stated, no we don’t know where it is and I’m sure that’s because Jim doesn’t have it back yet.


Fred Boessel stated, I just talked to my wife, she said to leave it the way that it is.


Ron Pollock asked, leave it as 145’?


Fred Boessel stated, yes.


Steve Fisher asked, you do understand that on lot #2, that there are 3 dwellings there so one will have to be removed?


Shirley Boessel stated, the one is not a dwelling it just has a cement floor and, it’s just a shop that he is using.


Ron Pollock stated, but that’s what they are saying is you can’t run your business here. Don’t you have a small bait shop over here?


Fred Boessel stated, yes.


Director Weaver stated, it’s a non-conforming use in a business zoning. A home is a non-conforming use in this zoning so if it’s being used as a home and it burns down you can’t put a home back, it can’t be used for anything other than a business purpose.


Attorney Altman stated, if he precedes today it will not be able to be used as a bait shop.


President Anderson stated, then the 3 dwellings on lot #2…


Shirley Boessel asked, can you explain the difference because they said that our property is grandfathered?


Steve Fisher stated, you’re changing it right now, it’s broken.


Attorney Altman stated, it’s not grandfathered. It was grandfathered but now today you’re asking with our subdivision to change that size of the lot and it takes it out of the grandfathered stage. If you changed your subdivision to meet the 150’ then it would presumably stay grandfathered and that’s why I’m cautioning you today so that you know that you’re loosing that if you proceed the way this plat is today.


Fed Boessel asked, so the thing to do would be to correct this line and it would be another month before it comes up then?


Steve Fisher stated, yes.


Fred Boessel asked, now, when do those grandfathers come…


President Anderson stated, right now we don’t know where the flood plain is on this.


Attorney Altman stated, you need to know where your flood plain is on this too.


Fred Boessel stated, the flood plain…


Attorney Altman stated, but we have to have it certified along with the plat.


Fred Boessel stated, we had to take out a small loan a year ago and the savings and loan…


Shirley Boessel stated, Peoples.


Fred Boessel stated, and a man came up from Indianapolis and he said what a lot of bologna because it’s not a flood plain. He said when you get down to the South end it could be but all of this area in here is a high bank.


Attorney Altman stated, if you can get that in writing and get that to Mr. Milligan or Director Weaver that will help us.


Ron Pollock stated, if you get together with Mr. Milligan and work this stuff out.


President Anderson stated, I say let’s table this until next month.


Steve Fisher stated, one of the things that you were saying that one of dwellings that was marked dwelling on lot #2 is not that.


Director Weaver stated, she had mentioned that to me and Jim did not get that corrected for me. She had mentioned that to me. We need to let Jim know that so he can get that corrected on the plat.


Steve Fisher stated, about the three parcels that are on lot #2.


Shirley Boessel stated, I told him about it.


Don Ward stated, she needs to make sure that line follows that line too, the 150’ won’t do it if it runs at that angle.


There was discussion.


Attorney Altman stated, as I understand this matter is tabled pending the modifications of the plat, preliminary plat.




President Anderson stated, next on the agenda is business.


Director Weaver stated, what I have on here is amendments, we have talked about amendments for penalties, the Board of Zoning Appeals has also asked for a couple of things to be amended so we need to discuss that. One is the refiling of the rezoning which you have mentioned and parking requirements for mainly retail businesses and Schedule of Uses for an appraisal business. That is not at this time addressed in our schedule of uses so the Board of Zoning Appeals has asked that we discuss that and possibly put something into our Schedule of Uses for that. Attorney Altman have you done anything with these?


President Anderson asked, an appraisal would just be a business wouldn’t it?


Attorney Altman stated, appraisal would just be another business column is the way that I look at it and add to it they had asked us to look at it as a potential use. As to the penalties section I really haven’t drawn that up but the truth is, pretty simple, I’m going to take the old original ordinance and put in a penalty section, a dollar amount, and advertise it. The problem that I have had is the County Commissioners have not been particularly receptive to an amount and I don’t know what to do, you have to put an amount in there.


President Anderson asked, can’t we fill it all out and let them put in an amount?


Attorney Altman stated, the problem is you have to advertise it. See, it’s not, absolutely is not effective until a penalty section, until it’s fully advertised for verbatim?


Director Weaver asked, could we write something up take it to them and see what their opinion of it is and then bring it to the Board for a vote and advertise before the vote?


Attorney Altman stated, what I would like to do is take the old ordinance, the original ordinance.


Director Weaver stated, we have tried that, they are not going to pass that. We have tried it.


Attorney Altman stated, it worked really well for many years.


Director Weaver stated, they want it more specific. I don’t know what they want but they want it more specific that’s about all that I can say.


Attorney Altman stated, I know that and I don’t know how in the world I can make it more specific.


Director Weaver stated, we have called around to some of the surrounding counties and I think that it was Rensselaer, Jasper County, I think that they have a flat 1,000 dollar fine. If you’re caught building without a permit, you get a 1,000 dollar fine just like that.


Attorney Altman stated, we could be that specific, if it’s a violation that’s it but then if you get a very big project, a 1,000 dollar fine is nothing to them.


Greg Bossaer stated, that’s right.


Director Weaver stated, I think that businesses and residential should be different.


Attorney Altman stated, and that’s why that so much per day was such a good hook. You didn’t have to charge them that much, but if they were really being jerks about it you had the leverage to go big time with it and that always brought them to bay. We never fined anyone with that kind of money but it did have discretion here and that’s what they are objecting to and I understand that too. I don’t mean that there’s no reason why someone should be concerned about a discretion or any type of thing.


President Anderson stated, right now you can’t fine anyone.


Don Ward asked, how is that, so much per day?


Director Weaver stated, the towns passed that but the county didn’t.


Don Ward asked, and who sets it?


Attorney Altman stated, actually the Boards can or the Director can.


Don Ward asked, can set the fee?


Attorney Altman stated, and obviously if she sets it, it’s against the appeal of the BZA and then appealed to the circuit court and that would be the same way here, if you set a fine it will be appealed to the Circuit Court, assuming that someone did appeal it.


Director Weaver stated, I’m not sure that they are comfortable with the Director setting those fines, I think that is part of the concern. 


Don Ward stated, that’s probably true and that probably should be spelled out but why can’t it be a percentage of the amount of the building permit?


Attorney Altman stated, what if it isn’t a building permit violation?


Don Ward stated, yes, but you don’t have the permits but if you had an estimate of the cost of the building and you set a fee of so much per day, like a ½ of a percent per day of the cost of the structure it could mount up in a hurry and that would be fair to everyone that comes along.


Attorney Altman stated, that would be a deep regards too. That’s a good suggestion and that would meter it to the size…


Steve Fisher stated, or just a dollar amount per square foot because that might be easier than trying to guestimate because you could have a small project but big money but a big project that’s not that much.


Don Ward stated, but there is so much of a difference in the way that you build a building too, some square foot buildings could cost you a fortune and some others very cheap.


Greg Bossaer asked, can you just sit down and visit with them?


Attorney Altman stated, I have and I….


Don Ward stated, they probably don’t know what they want and they want us to tell them something.


Attorney Altman asked, Director Weaver has honestly tried to pole the counties around and a lot of them aren’t interested in responding and those that are like she said, sharing with them like they do 1,000 dollars wham. Well, that could be as unfair as it is inequitable if it were a million dollar project. We do have 10 million-dollar projects and that 1,000 dollars is peanuts, violate that thing.


Director Weaver stated, that’s what their opinion is right now, well, we’ll build it and they aren’t going to do anything but slap us on the hands. Violations are a big problem.


Attorney Altman stated, the other thing that we have, we can go and get removal and we have one right now where the neighbor is a violation and is demanding that we remove his neighbors home and we’re in that right now. This is off of the cut, why don’t you give the Board of a copy of that.


Director Weaver asked, of the lawsuit?


Attorney Altman stated, yes, if you would. I didn’t think about that until right now. But it’s a road and everyone else has built back 35’ in accordance with the variance and this one has gotten much closer and the next door neighbor has filed suit against him, asking for an injunction to remove the home. That’s the penalty that I’m really trying to tell you as well as give you an idea what’s going on in the department. Ask for removal of that home, that is something that we can do and maybe you don’t all know we have removed some homes, some improvements, and that’s a pretty severe penalty and it does get their attention


Don Ward stated, I think that the city is like that, like West Lafayette, they have almost zero tolerance. I remember in school the Professors were on Area Plan and they made a guy tear his entire chimney out, it was a big fireplace chimney, because he was 2” or 3” over the line, over the setback line. They just said, we don’t allow anyone getting over that line and no matter what they do they are going to take it out.


Attorney Altman stated, you have a good suggestion, let me try to sit down with the Commissioners and see if something like that would meet either a cost type estimate or a square foot type estimate.


Don Ward stated, yes a square foot…


Attorney Altman stated, we could have it so much for business, so much for a residential so that it could be, and it varies some, as it should as you’re suggesting, some of this stuff is group pricing when it gets into the commercial stuff.


Don Ward stated, the bigger the building the more important that it is that they obey the law, or obey the Area Plan.


President Anderson stated, either one the square foot or the cost of the project would be fine.


Attorney Altman asked, are there any other thoughts on that, a way to equitability assess the penalty?


Don Ward asked, this is for getting no permit right?


Attorney Altman stated, for a violation.


Don Ward asked, any violation?


Director Weaver stated, any violation.


Rick Raderstorf asked, if they don’t get a permit and you have to come up with a price. If they haven’t come in and given you a price of what it’s going to cost, it’s up to you to get one from someone.


Director Weaver stated, but when we do issue the permit we ask what the estimated value of their building is going to be and they lie to us sometimes too.


Rick Raderstorf stated, but if they don’t have a permit, if that is the violation that they didn’t apply for a permit then you’re stuck getting that.


Director Weaver stated, but, you’re going to be in the same situation when you’re trying to come up with the square footage. Some of these houses, there is no way of figuring square footage just by going out on site.


Don Ward stated, actually, if you shut them down and then they have to get their permit and when they get the permit you have the price and then you levee the fine.


Attorney Altman stated, and the permit does include an affidavit and affirm that it’s true and that is something that you can go to the prosecutor about.


Steve Fisher stated, you could do the gross width and length of the structure by a walking stick, you don’t have to measure every corner, you could say that a building that is 100’ x 60’, you don’t have to round every corner just a gross…


Director Weaver stated, round it off.


Ray Butz stated, approximate.


Steve Fisher stated, yes, a gross estimate for your square footage. That’s their problem, there’s a violation.


Ron Pollock asked, subject to people doing things and I don’t know if I’m getting off base with this but, you know I have had a number of people ask me about this Wal-Mart roadway situation and I thought that in our meeting Wal-Mart had agreed once that they got started that they would put a culvert in the back off of Washington Street.


Director Weaver stated, there’s a problem there. Number one, I’m not sure that the City wants to do that and number two from what I understand they can’t go even with Washington Street because there is a drainage pond in the way. Is that right Rick?


Rick Raderstorf stated, yes, there was never an easement for that plot, for that ground, to come through that way.


Don Ward stated, they could put a causeway through there couldn’t they with equalizer pipes if it’s a pond, a drainage pond.


Ron Pollock stated, the Mayor had talked to me and asked if this was ever brought up and I told him that it was brought up.


Director Weaver asked, which one, the current Mayor?


Ron Pollock stated, yes, the current Mayor.


Director Weaver stated, because when he and I discussed it, I had the understanding that at this point they did not want to see that go through.


Attorney Altman stated, I had better go back through my minutes and make a list of them all. I remember that being discussed because I remember asking people about that.


Ron Pollock stated, I remember the gentlemen saying that we’re going to do it but we’re not going to do it right away.


President Anderson asked, did we ask Wal-Mart, did we ask them to do it or did we ask the guy that owned it to put the street in there.


Attorney Altman stated, he was representing Wal-Mart, yes, I’m pretty sure.


Director Weaver stated, yes, that was the engineer for Wal-Mart.


Ron Pollock stated, a number of people asked why did you guys zone this property, I remember the gentlemen saying that later on they were going to do that but like you say if they can’t get land through there then that’s a different story.


Greg Bossaer asked, wouldn’t that have gone through the Drainage Ordinance?


Ron Pollock asked, turned it down?


Greg Bossaer stated, no, they would have had some of that same information.


Director Weaver stated, the drainage pond that’s in the way is not Wal-Mart’s, it’s the car dealership’s and it was approved prior to Wal-Mart going in.


Ron Pollock stated, I see a ditch there.


Director Weaver stated, there’s retention pond, there is a retention pond there.


President Anderson asked, wasn’t that suppose to be changed there?


Director Weaver stated, that’s Rick’s Department, the retention pond for the car lot.


President Anderson asked, wasn’t that suppose to be changed?


Ron Pollock asked, isn’t there a retention pond right behind the car dealership?


Rick Raderstorf stated, yes, to the side of it, to the West side of it.


Ron Pollock asked, is there anyway, you have to jog…


Rick Raderstorf stated, they are already wanting to expand the parking lot which means that they would need to expand the drainage pond.


Ron Pollock asked, Wal-Mart?


Rick Raderstorf stated, no, Hendrickson.


Attorney Altman asked, go North?


Rick Raderstorf stated, right now I think that is the only way that they can go.


Attorney Altman stated, I’m sure that’s right.


Rick Raderstorf asked, they started out and moved it South clear to the end of the property, if I’m not mistaken from where they originally wanted, didn’t they?


Director Weaver stated, I don’t remember, I know that they moved it.


Rick Raderstorf stated, and they got it on there, they got into a feud with Tribbett over there.


Ron Pollock stated, another jog in the road wouldn’t hurt anything back there probably, if they went over and back into Washington Street.


Director Weaver stated, I don’t know, there are a lot of people unhappy with that first jog.


Attorney Altman stated, they said that we were terrible when we put a Casey’s in there, just terrible planning and they let this out on the other.


Rick Raderstorf stated, there’s a difference in that jog and a jog where you’re talking about. That jog wouldn’t be so bad because you don’t want them flying through there anyway but a jog in the intersection of a road…


President Anderson stated, you’re not going to alleviate much with putting an exit back there, most people aren’t going to even think about going clear back to the end of the road. 


Attorney Altman stated, it would help.


Director Weaver stated, they could avoid the intersection there if they come out through that.


Greg Bossaer stated, if there’s a big back up you can cut through that and come out.


Attorney Altman stated, Director Weaver, I guess as a proposal maybe we should contact Wal-Mart.


Director Weaver stated, I will pull the minutes and we’ll look at them.


Attorney Altman stated, look at the minutes, and contact them and maybe see if we can’t maybe work with the city.


Director Weaver stated, I have a meeting with the C.E.I. Thursday, which is the engineering company, on a different matter.


Attorney Altman stated, let’s lay that on the table then.


President Anderson asked, what’s the state suppose to do on 24 out there?


Director Weaver stated, they have revised their plans, they were suppose to start construction early this spring, they have revised their plans because of the growth in that area. I don’t know any more than that.


Ron Pollock stated, they are going to put a light up or something, aren’t they?


President Anderson stated, they were going to make that 2 lanes.


Director Weaver stated, Wal-Mart has said that they do, they have put everything in to put a light out in front of their entrance. State tells me that they have to have a traffic count to prove that it’s necessary before they can put that in but my understanding is all of the electric is there for it.


Ron Pollock stated, if you put a light there it will just jam it up more.


Attorney Altman stated, if you have a real intelligent light there or one that gets triggered right, it would help a lot.


Director Weaver stated, tonight is the first time that I have had a problem coming out of Wal-Mart going West.


Ron Pollock asked, going West?


Director Weaver stated, yes, I had traffic coming in town and going West.


Attorney Altman asked, is there anything else, information that we need to tell the Board?


Director Weaver stated, yes, we need to let the Board know, you need to do some homework, we have a Planned Development filed with us. I don’t know if any of you have been through one before but I haven't and we need to study on it because it will possibly be at your next meeting.


President Anderson stated, we did one about 4 or 5 years ago.


Attorney Altman stated, that was under a different ordinance.


Director Weaver stated, yes, this one is under a different ordinance and it’s a little bit of a different situation.


Attorney Altman stated, basically, we don’t know a lot about it residential, condimimum, duplex of a set up. It’s near Monticello and we don’t have specific plans so we can’t talk about more than that but just to give you a relative size, 9 acres. You really need to start looking at that aspect of the ordinance so when we get it, if you read it now it will help you a lot later on because we’re going to have it.


Steve Fisher asked, can we ask where the site is?


Attorney Altman stated, up North.


Director Weaver stated, Ward’s property.


Attorney Altman stated, Ward’s property. It’s probably going to be just fine but you guys need to know what’s coming.


Scott Kyburz asked, that will be next month?


Attorney Altman stated, probably.


Director Weaver stated, possibly, as of right now.


Don Ward stated, he should know this time what we want.


Attorney Altman stated, I think so too but still it’s completely different because it’s a planned development and since it’s new we’re all green worms on this.


Director Weaver stated, I have two more things. I have a letter here from Lenny Lavin if you remember he had a subdivision that was presented to us last month and was turned down. He is asking that he receive something in writing explaining why his subdivision was turned down and he wants the reasons that it was denied. I can’t say that I really understand it enough myself to where I’m comfortable giving him anything in writing. I think that Attorney Altman has more knowledge to do this than I do.


Attorney Altman stated, that would be fine.


Don Ward stated, yes.


Director Weaver stated, the other thing that I have, you may start noticing, and I don’t know if you noticed on Ted Nichols property if you went out there but, I have purchased flags and I’m giving them out to people with subdivisions and rezonings. They are pink so if you see pink flags, that’s marking your boundaries.


Ron Pollock stated, that will help.


Don Ward stated, I don’t see a sign posted on the site.


Director Weaver stated, actually Don, they are not required to post a sign on a subdivision. We do it so you guys can find it and so I can find it but in the ordinance it doesn’t state that they have to post a sign.


Ron Pollock asked, they don’t have to post a sign?


Director Weaver stated, not on a subdivision, just on a rezoning and a variance but not a subdivision. That’s all that I have.


President Anderson asked, do we have a motion to adjourn


Greg Bossaer made a motion to adjourn.


Ron Pollock seconded the motion.




The meeting adjourned.


Respectfully submitted,






Ray Butz, Secretary

White County Area Plan Commission






Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission