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The White County Board of Zoning Appeals met on Thursday, January 15, 2004 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were Gary Barbour, David Scott, Carol Stradling, Jerry Thompson and David Stimmel. Also attending were Attorney Jerry Altman and Director Diann Weaver.

Visitors attending were: Karen A. Tiede, Mary L. Perry, William Kusley, Tereasa Fry, Jerry Kyburz, Lloyd Kyburz, Larry Dill, Ron Kyburz, Sandra Brown, Robert Blamer, Bob Young, Phil Vogel, Dave Rosenbarger, Mike Bolden, Sandie Bolden, Charles Mellon, Bill Sproles, Gloria Sproles, Virginia Schlegel, Kenneth Schlegel, Susan Snyder, and Doug Barnard.

The meeting was called to order by President Jerry Thompson and roll call was taken. Gary Barbour made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the August 21, September 18, October 16, October 23, and November 20, 2003 meetings. Motion was seconded by David Scott and carried unanimously. Attorney Altman swore in all Board members and audience members.

Attorney Altman stated, as chair I will now except nominations for President.

Carol Stradling stated, I nominate Jerry.

David Scott stated, I will second it.

Attorney Altman stated, okay we have a nomination for President Jerry Thompson. Are there any other nominations?

David Stimmel stated, I make a motion to close.

Gary Barbour stated, I second that.

Attorney Altman stated, moved and nominations are closed. Hearing no objections the chair calls for the question. All those in favor of the nominations being closed signify by saying “aye”.

President Jerry Thompson stated, okay we need a nomination for Vice President, any nominations for that.


David Scott stated, I nominate Carol.

David Stimmel stated, I second it.

President Jerry Thompson stated, it has been moved and second.

Gary Barbour stated, I move that nominations be closed.

President Jerry Thompson stated, it has been moved the nominations be closed. All in favor signify by saying “aye”. All responded “aye”. Motion carried.

We need a nomination for Secretary. Any nominations?

David Scott stated, I nominate Gary Barbour.

Carol Stradling stated, I second it.

President Jerry Thompson stated, it has been moved and seconded. Any other nominations?

David Stimmel stated, I move that the nominations be closed.

President Jerry Thompson stated, motion to close the nominations. Do we have a second to that.

Gary Barbour stated, I second it.

President Jerry Thompson stated, all in favor signify by saying “aye”. All those opposed the same. Motion carried.

Kenneth Schlegel asked, why would you not vote for a variance?

Attorney Altman stated, it depends on the variance and the evidence and that is what we do and the requirements of the ordinance.

Kenneth Schlegel asked, have all of you gone out and seen the property?

Attorney Altman stated, we just wait until we have the matter before us.

President Jerry Thompson stated, we might want additional evidence before we make our decision.

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#2267 Lafayette Bank & Trust, Owner; Robert & Carole Blamer, Applicant: The property is located on 3.990 acres, West of Reynolds at 1766 W. 25 S. Tabled from the December 18, 2003 meeting.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting a special exception as per Section 10.20, Article 10.2001 of the White County Zoning Ordinance to place a kennel on the property.


President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone here representing this variance?


Bob Blamer stated, I’m Bob Blamer. I’m requesting the variance for the kennel. You asked or you said we have a chance to speak if we had any new information. You also requested additional information from me. I have the additional information, I paid the surveyor to get that information. I have presented it, you have the file and I have it here. The survey laid out the kennel in detail, he also laid out the woods that is there on the property. The woods that are there will hide the entire kennel from the property that is adjacent of 12 acres. The woods are so thick that you can’t see the kennel from the house or from the rented farmhouse even when there isn’t any leaves on the trees. Surveyor also shot the distances from the kennel to the houses 880’ from the farmhouse, 880’ from the adjacent 12 acres. He also laid out kennel in detail. The kennel has double fence around it has a fence around each kennel and then it has an entire fence around the entire kennel that has self-locking doors. One thing people want when they put their dogs or cat in the kennel, they want security. They are not going to pay $15 to $20 a day for their pets without security for their animals. This kennel will be concrete block construction, heated floors, air conditioning and it will be a fine kennel. I took the time to go to other kennels in this county and I noticed that there are distances of 120’ to 200’ from the kennel, you can not hear a sound from the dogs inside the kennel. As far as the kennel sanitation, we proposed to use the small septic tank that kennels use so that the waste is disposed of. Another thing about kennels is if it is not clean and sanitary, people will not leave their dogs. It has to be clean. I know I won’t leave my dog any place if it smells in the kennel. The kennel has to be very good. There are also port-a-rest that I submitted to the committee that shows the area more clearly. Diagram also shows that there will be a privacy fence built on the one side where the cows are in the pasture, so that the cows won’t be able to see the dogs and the dogs won’t be able to see the cows. If necessary I will even put a privacy fence down the entire lane there. I think it will look better. It will be properly landscaped. I think that the kennel will upgrade the area. It will be an improvement to the area. Any questions?


President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone else that wants to address the variance either for or against?


Lloyd Kyburz stated, my name is Lloyd Kyburz and I have got some material that I would like to give to the board.


President Jerry Thompson stated, just for the record your relationship to this is.


Lloyd Kyburz stated, we are the property right next to this to the West. Mr. Blamer referred to cows. We have a cowherd. This is not exactly the same as I presented the last time, but maybe for the benefit of the one board member that was not here. I will go through it fast. If you open your packets I’m just going to start on that first page where it says, I’m going to start reading. Since the 1940’s our family have operated the farm adjoining the land of the proposed dog kennel. For many years we have had dairy cattle and hogs producing milk and meat. In recent years we have changed to beef cows and calf operation production. For most of those years and to the present time our land joining the proposed dog kennel land had been cattle lots and pasture. The farm house and back yard and garden area are also very close to the driveway of the proposed kennel. It is not close to the kennel but it is close to the driveway where the people will come to the kennel. I might back up there is a piece of paper like this in your packets. It is a little map and if you will look at that map so that maybe you know what I’m talking about when I talk. If you look here at the 3.99 acres it doesn’t show where the kennel is there, but the kennel will be back there in that area. That is where the kennel will be and it will be somewhere half way back in that lot and Mr. Blamer may correct me and I’m just speaking from what I saw on another plan. I put in if you will look at where it says, the West line is of the driveway I put there yellow mark is where the house is. There is another livestock building where it says livestock. There is a tool shop and livestock barn that is very close to the driveway. It probably is 20’ from the driveway. Then the green is all pastureland. I put where the cattle lot is and then I put where there is pasture. Actually the cattle can come right up against the fence that separates the driveway and our property. They have a well that actually is 8.5’ from our line where the cattle is. That is what I’m talking about.


President Jerry Thompson asked, Mr. Kyburz do you have copies of the photos that we have?


Lloyd Kyburz stated, no I do not. If you look in this picture and you look at the bottom left hand picture over to the left and a little over you will see the well casing. You see the fence and you can see what I’m talking about. I will go on. There is considerable investment in concrete, buildings, lot floors, pans, feeding, fences, watering and property tax. A dog kennel anywhere on the property of the special exception applicant would be very stressful to the cattle. Decrease efficiency in production would be the obvious result. Cows are very substantial to stress when they have calves and that is what the operation is, they raise calves. They have a nature instinct to protect their calves from what ever they see to be harmful. This could be human or beast. I know of a situation absolute fact. Where a family cow killed the father as the rest of the family was looking on and he was attempting to help the calf because the cow thought he was hurting the calf. She didn’t know any different. I have been attacked by a cow when I thought I was safe. The site, hearing, and smell of the dogs would produce a natural reaction in the mother cow of fear for her calf. This would produce varied reactions from the cow, from charging the dog and person to running away from the dog and person. Whatever the reaction of that very minimum it would cause an uneasy feeling in the mother cow. This causing the milk production for her calf to be reduced a small amount or the other extreme to almost nothing. In both cases the calf would be smaller in a given period of time. The whole herd charging out of control, this is called being spooked. It has happened. When the variance hearing held to approve putting houses in the field by our livestock we were concerned and disappointed but did not contest it. Now there is a business proposed that will have tremendous incompatibility with our livestock farm. The proposed dog kennel will inappropriately change the character of the area. The traffic to the driveway to the proposed kennel that is beside the house yard garden area, cattle lots, and pastures will become many times more. The traffic will become many times more. The general peacefulness and general tranquility of the area will be broken for people and livestock. I don’t know of that means much to you, it has meant a lot to me in the years gone by. When I can walk out there and observe the cattle. I can observe the calves, the calves frolicking with their mothers, growing, and being content and not disturbed. I go on here to say the incompatibility will be produced by cars, trucks, scared and excited dogs. The unpredictable actions of cattle from site and smells of dogs. Decrease efficiency in the cattle all of those would be incompatibility as far as I’m concern. All of this would interfere with the pleasure of working and living next to the area of the proposed area. According to the plan I saw the kennel would replace or eliminate some of the wood area that has been there many years. There is wild life including many birds in the woods whose habitat would be disturbed or destroyed. Even if the dog kennel is not in the woods, which I believe it would be and Mr. Blamer did say it would be in the woods. This would detract from the natural environment of the area. Next page when cows are spooked and out of control this is what can happen. A cow well maintained and in good control can become spooked and out of control by hearing, seeing, and smelling. When this happens they can go through perfectly good fences, destroy property and people. The dog kennel anywhere in the area requesting the special exception increases the likelihood of this happening greatly. That is the end of that particular section, now we will go to the next one. The next page. I visited a very well kept and well-managed kennel in our area. These are some of the things that I was told by the owner. Dogs are intrigue by sound and movement. Dogs will bark when cars pull in and sometimes they will go ballistic. Movement will cause dogs to bark. Walking down the aisle between dogs in a kennel cause dogs to bark such that you can not hear another person talk. I actually did this. In the wintertime when it is closed the dog kennel probably wouldn’t have a lot of noise. In the summer time when the runs are open or when they got outside, I would expect there to be quite substantial. Also when dogs are coming and going there would be. There are sound protectors to put on before you go down. I asked, about when dogs came if there was a chance that they might get loose. This was the answer. Dogs will get loose from owners when arriving sometimes and it will happen. Go on to the next page. Roger Weise gave me some information. Roger has some cattle real close, but not boarding the property. People do not hear what cattle hear. Doctor Ed Pager with Extension services at Purdue who’s specialty is animals well being. Cattle have a much higher hearing range than humans do and also a lower range. So consequently that means that what the cattle is going to hear is, what we may not hear at all. They are going to hear things that we would not actually hear. I have included in another packet of papers a paper, which tells Dr. Pagers that he is at Purdue and what his position is there. Temple Granin, PHD from Colorado State University, is known world wide for her designs for handling facility of livestock. This is incredible stuff and I don’t mean to take your time with this, but she is an incredible person and she is an autistic person with a mentality that is absolutely incredible. She has work in developing systems for handling cattle and all livestock from packing plants to where they are raised. I will go on. Her systems for cattle are used world wide and her writings on the flight zones and other principle of grazing animals behavior have help many people to reduce stress on their animals. She says that human hearing is most sensitive at 100 to 300. The sensitive hearing for cows and sheep is 600 to 700. Roger Weise wanted me to express his objection to the special exception, he could not be here. Well go on to the last page.


President Jerry Thompson asked, how far is Mr. Weise from you?


Lloyd Kyburz stated, I would say 60 rods. This morning I talked to Dr. Gordon F. Jones. He is animal science at Kentucky University. He expresses a thought that dogs are similar to coyotes and wolves and natural predators to cows and calves. I mean without me saying anything, he expresses this opinion to me. He went on to say the oxytoson is a natural chemical in a cow to stimulate milk let down. When a cow becomes fearful for herself and calf she is stimulated by adrenaline. Adrenaline is the fight or flee hormone. It immediately releases of oxytoson. Which in turn will stop milk let down. Which means as I stated before in this article that calves will become less growth. Cattle do not understand that fence protects them. Do you have any questions?

President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone else care to address the board?


Gloria Sproles stated, I’m Gloria Sproles and we live to the East of the property. We still stand opposed to the rezoning for the reasons we stated last month. I’m not going to go through those again.


President Jerry Thompson asked, anyone else?


Karen Tiede stated, I’m Karen Tiede. I’d like to start out by saying that I’m not opposed nor am I for. I am concerned that I’m a resident of White County and Honey Creek Township, which is where the proposed kennel is supposed to be going. My purpose to being here this evening is I have been on both sides of this fence. My husband’s family is cattle farmers, we love cattle, our children show them. On the opposite side of the fence, my husband and I own a boarding kennel. We love dogs and we love companion animals and can not imagine our life without them. My concern would be to look at this possible from a flip side. I understand Mr. Kyburz’s concerns of having his cattle there and the affect of the cows on the cattle. I think it should be taken into consideration. Dogs obviously descend from wolves. While the nature to go out and hunt down their food has pretty much been taken out of their lineage. The desire to pounce the desire to chase after, all of those things are in every dog. Whether that dog is a 200 pound German Shepard or a 2 pound Lhasa Apso. I have seen it happen that a dog in the best kennel facility with the best gates, the heaviest gage wire try to chew it’s way out of the kennel. It is not a pretty site. The damage that can be done to that dog, loss of teeth, loss of blood, and loss of life. That is a large concern, not to mention the loss of very expensive gates, if that is what you are installing in your kennel. Again I know that the proposed kennel is state of the art, I would like to reiterate to you kennel management is far more important than kennel building. Kennel management is huge. My husband obtained his animal science degree from Purdue and we both have been educated in kennel management through the Ohio State University. He has attended animal behavior classes through Cornell University. Taking care of dogs is not rocket science. You have to be very careful and in a situation where you are combining a dog kennel in a setting where there is a potential and there is always the potential and I don’t care how careful of a kennel operator you are. I have been there I’ve chased the dog. It happens. It doesn’t happen on a weekly basis, but it will at some point happen. When that does, in the event that there is something near by, dogs being intrigue by movement, by sound, by smell. Those dogs are naturally in their predatorial state. Going to look for that calf, going to look for that cow. I think if you are going to build a kennel in a situation where there are cattle near by you might well be looking for a problem. I would think it would be a recipe for concern and possible catastrophe

My children show cattle at the White County Fair, goats, and dogs. A few years ago there was a situation where dogs were being walked through the cattle barn. Cattle were spooked. It was no fault of the dog on the lead. The dog had no idea what he was doing, it was operator error on the handlers part. They failed to realize while okay the calf might be spooked and he is tied up. You get a 1500lb steer bucking around and the board is not going to hold him. What is worse than the calf getting away is the potential for that calf to trample the child that is in the stroller. The White County Fair is huge and it is a wonderful agriculture fair. That was a large issue and I think that anytime that you bulk at placing dogs and livestock together you have the potential for a problem.


Attorney Altman asked, where is your kennel from this location.


Karen Tiede stated, I’m between 300 and 400 North. I’m in Honey Creek Township. I’m a mile West of 24 in that general area.


Attorney Altman asked, how long have you had a kennel there?


Karen Tiede stated, we just completed our 6th year in business.


Attorney Altman asked, how many animals do you have?


Karen Tiede stated, we have 32 enclosures. We have 24 indoor/outdoor kennels. We have 52. We have 12 indoor/outdoor, 12 indoors only, then we have 4 that we use for drying pens.


Bob Blamer stated, you say that you are not for or against this kennel. It sounds like you are against it. Would this kennel be in competition with your kennel?


Karen Tiede stated, to answer your question, your kennel would be in direct competition with my kennel. Honestly sir in the last 3 years I have seen two new kennels open in White County and one of them is closed and the owner has approached me about buying it. The second one is doing business, but I have continued to grow and flourish. To answer your question and am I concerned that you are building a kennel is that my reason for being here. Absolutely not.


President Jerry Thompson asked, anyone else? I think we have pretty much heard all of the evidence. If you have new evidence we will be glad to hear. We don’t want to keep beating over the whole evidence.


Teresa Frey stated, I’m a tenant of the property that is located West. I live in the farm house. The last time I came I was more interested in questions. I did not state whether I was opposed or not. Since then I have given it much thought and from what has been presented tonight I am opposed and what has been suggested, I still not feel like it is character to what is current people that live there or the current property. Putting a privacy fence up that run a quarter of a mile is not typical in an agriculture community. It would not be in character of that community. I still have the concern of a commercial business located in a residential place. I know I live there and I can move away. I don’t own property there but I know that Mr. & Mrs. Sproles moved there and built a house there and retired there. They are going to be there quite a while. Mr. Kyburz and his brother have owned the property where I live for a long time and there are going to be there a lot longer.


President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else?


Bob Blamer stated, I have a couple pieces of new information. The well that this gentleman was talking about is the well for the house not the property. Also the diagram shows that the kennel would be outside of the woods. Then the cows I have heard the stories. When I was younger I would say to the dogs go get the cows. My dogs would go out there in the fields and bring those cows back. They had a job bringing them back. My dogs and the cows where always for compatible. We don’t have any elk here.


President Jerry Thompson stated, one more comment and we are rapping this up.


Bob Blamer stated, okay, the driveway, we will move the driveway.


Virginia Schlegel stated, I’m Virginia Schlegel. I just wonder if this man thinks if the dogs he is going to get for the kennel are going to be there all the time or are they just going to be coming in or out. If that is the case they will never get accustom to the cows.


President Jerry Thompson asked, where do you live in relations to this property?


Virginia Schlegel stated, I don’t I just wanted to make a comment.


Lloyd Kyburz stated, I just wanted to clear up where the kennel is going to be from the last meeting. I have a diagram this one was given to me. (he is showing the board a diagram) It shows the kennel is 112’ to the southeast of the house. It is approximately from the edge of that house 65’ to the edge of the woods. I guess I’m at loss, I don’t understand, if the woods are 65’ from the house how is the kennel going to be 112’ from the house and not be in the woods.


Bob Blamer stated, I think for $300 the surveyor is very accurate. He is very good. The diagram shows where it is, it is next to the woods, It is 112’ from the house and the kennel is next to the woods and not into the woods.


David Stimmel stated, this is what he is talking about.


Showing him a diagram.


President Jerry Thompson asked, which one are you looking at Dave?


David Stimmel stated, I’m looking at the one that Diann had and I think received before. It shows the approximate tree line. It shows the kennel was in the woods. The diagram from Mr. Blamer’s paperwork shows it outside the woods. It shows the woods to the right.


President Jerry Thompson stated, the photos that have been given to the committee, I think you would have to agree to eyeball it, you can see the house with the relationship to the woods.


Bob Blamer stated, the kennel goes behind the woods. This is the start of the woods. The woods are way back and the kennel goes along the side of the woods. You can not see the kennel from that house that is on 12 acres even when there are leaves on the trees. I went out there a couple of times. You can’t see from the farmhouse either. Woods are on the hill.


President Jerry Thompson stated, now I’m confused. Do you own the property behind the woods?


Bob Blamer stated, the woods are on the 3.98 acres, I also purchased the 6 acres in front of the house, so there will be a total of 10 acres.


President Jerry Thompson stated, if it is behind the woods that is not your property.


Bob Blamer stated, there is 4 aces that go with the house.


President Jerry Thompson stated, yes.


Bob Blamer stated, the woods are mainly on the 4 acres.


President Jerry Thompson stated, so it is not behind the house?


Bob Blamer stated, the house or the kennel. The kennel is on the side of the woods not behind it.


They are looking at the photos from Mr. Blamer.


President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone else care to address the board? Not to rush you but we have to rap this up.


Larry Dill stated, it appears to me that this whole thing was not thoroughly thought out when it started. It has snowballed and progressing as things go on. I don’t believe the analysis of the business was thought out. I think ultimately what and it is evident that Mr. Blamer hasn’t concerned any of the impact on the cattle and I think that he has scoffed at the seriousness of that. After this lady spoke I think it is pretty evident too that the impact it would have on the dogs. I think with the impact of the dogs and the cattle, I think granting this proposal would be inconsistent with the purpose of the zoning ordinance. The result would be a circumstance for animals that have no control over the situation that would ultimately be inhumane.


President Jerry Thompson asked, is there any comments or concerns from the board?


Carol Stradling asked, Mr. Blamer I would like for you to state your experience please with dogs?


Bob Blamer stated, I lived on a farm when I was younger. I have had dogs all of my life, we have dogs now. My family is very animal oriented. I have a daughter that is going to mainly work this kennel. She now takes care of dogs, finds homes for dogs, and runs a private shelter for dogs in Arizona. She is moving back to Indiana. We have lots of experiences with dogs and kennels. I’m sure we have a lot to learn, but I’m sure we will.


Carol Stradling asked, what about dogs that are not yours, that belong to other individuals and not on their home turf?


Bob Blamer stated, my daughter who will be here full time has a lot of experience with that. She does that now.


Carol Stradling stated, she is not here to speak.


Bob Blamer stated, no she is not.


Carol Stradling stated, and we don’t have a resume in front of us and you are the applicant.


Bob Blamer stated, that is correct and I will be there too.


President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else?


Attorney Altman is reading from the ordinance to the board.


Without further discussion the board voted.


The Board finds the following:

1. That there were objectors present at the meeting.

2. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners

3. That the request is for a special exception as per Section 10.20, Article

10.2001 of the White County Zoning Ordinance to place a kennel on that part of the Southeast Quarter of the Northwest Quarter of Section 32, Township 27 North, Range 4 West in Honey Creek Township, White County, Indiana described by:

Commencing at a monument at the Northwest corner of said Section 32; thence South 89 Degrees 58 Minutes 54 Seconds East (Indiana State Plane Coordinate System) along the section line 1317.80 feet; thence South 00 Degrees 01 Minutes 19 Seconds East along the fractional section line 1342.63 feet to a railroad spike at the Northwest corner of said Southeast Quarter of the Northwest Quarter and the point of beginning;

Thence North 89 Degrees 51 Minutes 47 Seconds East along CR25S and the fractional section line 40.00 feet to a railroad spike; thence South 00 Degrees 01 Minutes 19 Seconds East 654.34 feet to a ½ inch iron pipe; thence North 89 Degrees 51 Minutes 47 Seconds East 443.74 feet to a ½ inch iron pipe; thence South 00 Degrees 01 Minutes 19 Seconds East 305.00 feet to a ½ inch iron pipe; thence South 89 Degrees 49 Minutes 45 Seconds West 483.74 feet to a ½ inch iron pipe on the fractional section line; thence North 00 Degrees 01 Minutes 19 Seconds West 959.62 feet to the point of beginning, containing 3.990 acres.

COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located West of Reynolds at 1766 W. 25 S.

4. (1) Section 10.20 of the Zoning Ordinance (does) (does not) authorize the special

exception for this use in this zoning district. Vote: 3 does 1 does not.

5. (2) The requirements and development standards for the requested use as

prescribed by the Zoning Ordinance (will) ( will not) be met. Vote: 2 will, 2 will not.

6. (3) Granting the special exception (will) (will not) subvert the general purposes served by the Ordinance. Vote: 2 will, 2 will not.

7. (4a) Granting the special exception (will) (will not) materially and permanently injure other property or uses in the same district and vicinity by becoming noxious. Vote: 2 will, 2 will not.

8. (4b) Granting the special exception (will) (will not) materially and permanently injure other property or uses in the same district and vicinity by becoming offensive. Vote 2 will, 2 will not.

9. (4c) Granting the special exception (will) (will not) materially and permanently injure other property or uses in the same district and vicinity. Vote: 4 will, 0 will not.

The variance was denied based on the findings of fact by a vote of 0 for and 5 against. A vote of 3 “for” is necessary to grant a variance.

****


#2272 Patricia Biddle & Mary L. Perry; The property is located on Lot 21 in Industrial Addition in the City of Monticello at 730 N. Third Street.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting a 16’ front (Third Street) setback variance, 16’ front (Ireland Street) setback variance, and a 2’ side setback variance, and a 1’ separation variance to build an attached garage on the existing home.

President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone here representing this variance?

William Kusley stated, we have a 94 Lincoln that is like brand new we paid a lot of money for it and we bought a pickup truck and we spent about $4,000 on it. I had it painted and fixed up and the children and the people in the area beat on the cars, they scratch them, throw rocks at them. They are damaging everything and we would like to get a garage built so we can put the stuff in the garage so it can’t get damaged. They beat our one car in with a hammer. You could stick your fist into it. On the truck they beat the roof in. We would like to get the garage in as soon as possible.

President Jerry Thompson asked, what is your relationship to the Biddle and the Perry’s.

William Kusley stated, I live with Mary Perry.

President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone else care to address the variance?

Anything Diann?

Director Weaver stated, I have not received anything, I just, uh the picture you see of the shed they just did put up this year. There was a permit issued. There are also 2 homes on this property. They are grandfathered.

President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry do you have anything?

Attorney Altman stated, they don’t comply actually with the setbacks

Director Weaver stated, no that is what they are requesting.

Attorney Altman stated, I understand that.

Director Weaver stated, we did not request setback variance on the smaller home. It is not being altered at this time.

William Kusley stated, the homes were put on the property 30 years ago.

President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone else care to address the board? Carol?

Carol Stradling asked, the plan is to keep both the metal shed and the wood shed on the property?

William Kusley stated, no the metal shed will be torn down.

David Stimmel asked, how will you access the garage?

William Kusley stated, 2 front doors. Third Street.

President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else? If not let's vote.

Carol Stradling asked, what, or how will the garage be constructed. You have a lot of different stuff.

William Kusley stated, it will be wood with siding same color as the house.

Carol Stradling stated, if I’m not, it appears where you have the driveway next to the house. The house has a vehicle going this way and then you are going to put the garage next to it.

William Kusley stated, attached to it, yes.

Carol Stradling asked, which way will the roof go?

William Kusley stated, I want the same type roof as the house.

Carol Stradling asked, so are you going to have twin gables and then a valley down the middle.

William Kusley stated, probably, I imagine. Contractor is Mitch Jones from Monon. I gave the survey a plot of the garage.

Carol Stradling asked, do you see what I’m talking about. You will have this gable here and then the garage doors here and then another gable here.

William Kusley stated, I told the contractor I wanted it just like the house.

Carol Stradling asked, Diann is there anything in the ordinance about how many structures there are on a lot?

Director Weaver stated, no.

President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else Carol?

Carol Stradling stated, I’m struggling with this and I don’t know why. Will it be enclosed?

William Kusley stated, yes, just one door.

Director Weaver stated, you do realize that if something happens to one of these homes that you can not replace it.

William Kusley stated, yes.

Carol Stradling stated, you can only have one residence on a lot and this is grandfathered so.

Director Weaver stated, correct, if something happened to destroy one of these homes, he can not replace it.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.

2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.

3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.

4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.

5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.

6. That the request is for a 16’ front (Third Street) setback variance, 16’ front (Ireland Street) setback variance, and a 2’ side setback variance, and a 1’ separation variance to build an attached garage on the existing home on Lot 21 in Industrial Addition in Monticello, Indiana.

COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located in the City of Monticello at 730 N. Third Street.

7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.

The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.

****

#2273 Steven M. & Susan I. Snyder; The property is located on Lots 3 and 4 in Block 22 in the Original Plat in the Town of Brookston at 504 S. South Street.

Violation: They put up a fence without a building permit that is not meeting the setbacks.

Request: They are requesting a 10’ front setback variance to bring a wooden fence under 4’ into compliance with the ordinance.

President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone here representing this request?


Steven Snyder stated, I’m Steve Snyder.


Susan Snyder stated, I’m Susan Snyder.


Matt Snyder stated, I’m Matt Snyder.


President Jerry Thompson asked, do you have anything that you would like to present to us?


Susan Snyder stated, no, only that all of the other fences on our street are closer to the sidewalk than what ours are. The one right next to us is right on the sidewalk. The one down on the next corner is against the sidewalk. This is the neighbor’s fence, which is closer to the sidewalk than ours.


President Jerry Thompson stated, if you want the board to see this, we will have to keep it.


Susan Snyder stated, fine, these are all on the same street.


Attorney Altman asked, please bring those up here so I can mark them and keep them.


Susan Snyder stated, this is on the next corner. We aren’t concerned, I mean we are within the alley. Even the fences across the alley are in the alley right-of-way.


President Jerry Thompson asked, Diann do you have anything to say?


Susan Snyder asked, can I ask you the ordinance number on the less than 4’ height fences for permits? When we called the office they told us a permit was not required.


Director Weaver stated, I don’t know why anyone would have told you that. Did you call the area plan office?


Matt Snyder stated, yes, and my wife called twice.


President Jerry Thompson asked, what time frame are you talking about? How long ago did you do this?


Matt Sndyer stated, we called in April or May.


Susan Snyder stated, on August the 14th, when Mr. Anderson was at this property, there were 3 posts put in the ground and the fence had not been put up. The post were there and he asked about a permit for the fence, if we were going to put it up. At that time he was told that we had called the office and they told us a permit was not required. He said fine. I think all of this could have been avoided possibly if he had just mentioned to us that maybe we should contact them again, that maybe he knew a little bit more than we did. He could have told us, I didn’t even know about any of this problem until I got the letter in September. If he would have mentioned something at that time, that we should check that permit again or about road right-of-way. We had no idea because of the other fences being put up on the sidewalk. We were 4’ from the side walk, so that we can mow.


President Jerry Thompson stated, we have additional photos that you have presented.


Director Weaver stated, the article that address 4’ fences or less is Article 4.5002. Mr. Anderson and all of the staff in the Area Plan office are well, they know very well that any fence needs a permit.


Susan Snyder asked, can I read that ordinance to you. It says no fences more than 4’ high.


Attorney Altman stated, you still need a building permit.


Director Weaver stated, it says 4’ fences high or less.


Susan Snyder stated, yes I know.


Director Weaver stated, except as provided in section 4.5001 in our district. No fences more than 4’ high or more than 50% solid maybe located near or to the street line.


Susan Snyder stated, it says more than 4’ high.


Director Weaver stated, it does not say that they do not need a permit.


Susan Snyder stated, it doesn’t say, but that is what is so confusing to me. I read 4’ or less and the next line says 4’ high or more.


Director Weaver stated, that is because it addresses anything that is 4’ high or less in one manner and anything that is over 4’ is another manner. They all have to have a permit.


Susan Snyder stated, okay. It is very confusing when you call the office, they say no, and you read this and it.


Director Weaver asked, why did you call the office? What did you ask when you called the office?


Matt Snyder stated, we asked how far away from the property line it should be. How far from the alley way


Director Weaver asked, why you did not meet the setbacks?


Matt Snyder stated, the setbacks from the alley.


Director Weaver stated, no from the road right-of-way.


Susan Snyder stated, because we thought the road right-of-way was the edge of the road because all of the other fences are along the sidewalks.


President Jerry Thompson asked, were you in contact with the town of Brookston?


Matt Snyder stated, and they had no idea where the road right-of-way is.


Director Weaver stated, that was after we had told you.


Matt Snyder stated, no before. I asked, them where the road right-of-way was. They said we are not for sure where it is.


Attorney Altman stated, it is your obligation no matter what, whether they know or not isn’t really relevant.


Susan Snyder stated, we asked them how we measure. He said you can’t measure the road because the road is not in the center of the road right-of-way. You really can’t do any measurements.


Attorney Altman stated, that is where you need a survey.


Susan Snyder stated, and we did.


Attorney Altman stated, you need to get it before. I don’t mean that I’m making light of it, but this is when you do it. It is before rather than after.


President Jerry Thompson asked, Dave do you want to add anything to this?


David Rosenbarger stated, it was brought up at last nights meeting and no problems as long as they get their permit.


Carol Stradling asked, you have no idea who you talked too, or when you talked to them or any kind of documentation of what you were told and by whom?


Matt Snyder stated, we talked to them over the phone.


Susan Snyder stated, and Dave Anderson was at the house on August 14. We did talk to him at that time.


Matt Snyder stated, he said nothing about it being too close to the sidewalk or the road.


Susan Snyder stated, he asked if we had a permit and if they had applied for it. They told him we called the office twice and they told us twice that they did not need a permit and he said okay.


Carol Stradling asked, when did you get a copy of what ever or the part of the ordinance that you are reading?


Susan Snyder stated, of this ordinance.


Carol Stradling asked, when did you get that?


Susan Snyder stated, yesterday. I got it from an attorney in Brookston.


Carol Stradling asked, you went to an Attorney?


Susan Snyder stated, on a different matter and I asked him if he could find out anything about 4’ or less fences. I asked, Diann when I applied for this, if there was a difference in a 4’ high or under 4’. She stated, yes there is.


Carol Stradling stated, you have to read the complete sentence and you have to read the complete phrase. You just can’t read part of it and ignore the rest.


President Jerry Thompson asked, how did this get brought to our attention?


Director Weaver stated, we were told of a violation of tenants in the garage. That is how we started investigating this.


Susan Snyder stated, the first time I heard anything about it was on September 17, when I received a letter.


Carol Stradling stated, we have a copy of that letter. What was your response to the letter.


Susan Snyder stated, we went up there that day, we received the letter and asked, them what we needed to do and they told us what we needed to do and the permit and that we did need a permit. We went home and got the measurements and took it back up there on the 26th a week later and turned it all in. We applied for the permit. I went back up on the 30th to get it and was denied the permit because they said the road right-of-way went 1’ inside the sidewalk and we were not 10’ from that.


Carol Stradling asked, did you have the survey at that time?


Susan Snyder stated, no, we didn’t need a survey to get a permit, as far as we knew.


Carol Stradling stated, you need the survey to locate how far you are. You need a survey to know where your property line is. You need a survey to know where the road right-of-way is.

Susan Snyder stated, okay.


Carol Stradling asked, when did you get the survey?


Susan Snyder stated, December 4 is when they completed the survey.


Carol Stradling stated, okay so you came in for a permit and were told that it was denied.


Susan Snyder stated, yes.


Carol Stradling stated, and you put up the fence anyway.


Susan Snyder stated, the fence was already up because we were told that we did not need a permit. The fence was already up at that time.


Carol Stradling stated, the complete fence, because the last I heard Mr. Anderson was there and you just had the post.


Susan Snyder stated, and that was in August.


Carol Stradling asked, when did you complete the fence?


Susan Snyder stated, it has not been completed, it is still setting the same way it was when they told us we couldn’t have the permit for it.


Carol Stradling asked, when did you put up the portion I see in the pictures?


Matt Snyder stated, the end of August I think.


Susan Snyder stated, it was between August 14 and September 17, when we got the letter.


Director Weaver stated, I have pictures Carol that shows it on September 4.


President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone else care to address this variance either for or against? Okay back to the board.


Carol Stradling stated, I guess I’m wondering what you measured from without a survey.


Susan Snyder stated, the side of the road, where the road comes. The roads in Brookston in some places are wider than others to the curb and stuff. We took the widest area, which is not in front of the house but at the edge. We measured from there into where the fence was. It was 14’ maybe and she had told us 10’. We knew it was more than 10’, so we let it go at that.

We had no reason to believe that the line was inside the sidewalk. The town line, like I said all of the other fences on that same road are on the sidewalks.


David Scott stated, I understand that the city of Brookston has no problem with where the fence is.


David Rosenbarger stated, for the simple fact of what she stated, that it is in harmony with the rest of the fences.


David Scott asked, once you found out that you were in violation did you come in and try to bring it into compliance?


Susan Snyder stated, the same day I got the letter, I came into the office and asked, what we needed to do to get those permits. She told us what we had to do and we went home and within a week we had all the measurements and the drawing and everything as to where it was.


Carol Stradling stated, she didn’t get the survey until December.


Steven Snyder stated, we got the survey as soon as we could get a surveyor there to do it.


Susan Snyder stated, you can’t get a surveyor on the property right away and we tried to find property lines by looking at other surveys in the area. We tried to go out and do measurements from other areas. We were out of the country for 10 days. We have a daughter in the Army in Belgium. We went to see her, we were out in November and when I got back I went into the office on Friday, November the 21st and I said I want that list of what we need for the variance. I headed to where ever I have to go. I went down to the Assessor’s office, to find out who the neighbor’s where to get that list and then I went to the Surveyors office.


Carol Stradling asked, that was in November?


Susan Snyder stated, yes, as soon as I could get that done, when we got back from the trip.


Carol Stradling stated, but you came in for the permit in September.


Susan Snyder stated, yes.


Carol Stradling stated, and they denied it and then you questioned then what you needed to do.


Susan Snyder stated, she said we had to move the fence or get a variance.


Carol Stradling stated, okay.


Susan Snyder stated, so we went out to do a or she said we have to find out where the road right-of-way. We had to find out where the road right-of-way was, that is when I started to go find out if anybody had survey’s done on their property. We got a metal detector to try to find stakes.


Carol Stradling stated, you didn’t contact a surveyor until.


Susan Snyder stated, not at that time. We thought we could find out on our own. I did not contact a surveyor until November 21st.


Director Weaver stated, Carol the original letter was sent out in September, but we did send out a second letter on November 25 because of the fence not being taken care of.


Susan Snyder stated, that is correct, and I had been in the office and picked up paper work and I talked to Paula that day.


Carol Stradling stated, that was in November.


Susan Snyder stated, yes, and then I got that letter then the day before Thanksgiving. I had already contacted everyone at that time.


Carol Stradling stated, but before you contacted a surveyor, you contacted an attorney.


Susan Snyder stated, I did that the very day I went into the office in September. When I left the office I was so upset about the way things had been done, that I went and talked to an Attorney. I did not know that there was a problem. I asked before they put up the fence, what about a permit and they said we called twice and they told us we didn’t need one. Then I find out later that Mr. Anderson was there and even he did not mention it. I didn’t know anything was going on and then I went into the office, we had a problem there. It upset me, so I contacted an attorney.


Carol Stradling stated, so instead of getting a survey so you knew where your property line was, you contacted an attorney.


Susan Snyder stated, I didn’t know that then.


Carol Stradling stated, but the reason your permit was denied was because.


Susan Snyder stated, it had not been denied at that point.


Carol Stradling stated, I thought you said it had been denied in September.


Susan Snyder stated, not the day I went in, we hadn’t applied for it at that time.


Carol Stradling stated, I’m looking at a document dated 9/26/03 that says the permit was not being issued at this time because the road and alley right-of-way can not be located. Then, it appears, instead of contacting a surveyor, you contacted an attorney.


Susan Snyder stated, I contacted the lawyer before the permit was denied.


David Scott asked, why is that relevant?


Carol Stradling stated, she does have the right.


Susan Snyder stated, we didn’t know we needed a variance at that time.


David Stimmel asked, how long have you owned the property?


Susan Snyder stated, 8 years.


David Stimmel asked, did you have a survey when you bought it?


Susan Snyder stated, no the bank did not request it. They did a site survey.


David Stimmel asked, if this is approved, let's say


Can no hear what David Rosenbarger is saying to David Stimmel.


David Stimmel asked, if someone knocks this down and they have to put it back up, they are going to need another permit.


David Rosenbarger stated, right.


David Stimmel stated, so if we put this one in and let it go, I guess what I’m saying is you will never have one within the setbacks.


Several talking at once.


David Rosenbarger stated, there are a lot of fences in Brookston that have been built without one.


Gary Barbour asked, how many of those fences have had variances though?


Matt Snyder stated, none on our street.


Gary Barbour stated, for those who did get the variance, it is not fair to them to make them go through the process and no one else has to.


Several are talking at once.


Carol Stradling stated, I need to back up a little bit. There is a fine imposed. You are not appealing the fine.


Susan Snyder stated, yes.


Carol Stradling stated, you are appealing the fine, so there is 2 issues here.


David Stimmel stated, there is only one issue.


David Scott asked, are we talking about the fine or the setback?


Carol Stradling stated, my questions dealt with the fine.


David Scott stated, my feeling is that they have made an effort to come into compliance and that is what we are after. I guess that we make a motion that we reduce the $500 to $25.00.


President Jerry Thompson stated, it has been moved do we have a second or is there discussion.


David Stimmel stated, the discussion I would have is do we want to vote on the fine before we vote on the variance.


President Jerry Thompson stated, it has been common.


Gary Barbour stated, I would like to discuss this further. I guess in my opinion the reason we have the fine. I’m not trying to pick on these people here, but these fines are imposed, so we stop this. We get the opportunity. The ordinance is published and they can come in a read them, they can see what they say and if they want to have an attorney involved that is fine. He can interpreted it for them. I guess this went on long enough in my opinion, I don’t believe $25.00 is really enough. I’m sorry I’m not trying to pick on any body.


David Scott stated, part of my reasoning for that is that the average person out here doesn’t know the Area Plan book and our job is to bring people into compliance. I don’t know if these people are mad, they don’t look like crooks.


Susan Snyder stated, if Mr. Anderson would have just said something to us that day. We wouldn’t have put up the fence. It would have stopped right there. We would have called the office or gone in there to find out. What I don’t understand is, it said that I had not picked up the permit, they told me I couldn’t have the permit.


President Jerry Thompson stated, that is what I don’t like, we have a representative from the office.


Director Weaver stated, he is not from our office.


President Jerry Thompson asked, he works for us?


Director Weaver stated, no. He works for the County Commissioners and a completely different department.


President Jerry Thompson stated, I will argue that.


Director Weaver stated, he does not enforce the setback requirements. That is the Area Plan Department.


President Jerry Thompson stated, but we hire him to go out and observe projects.


Director Weaver stated, the Commissioners do.


David Scott stated, he should have known the setback on.


Director Weaver stated, he should have known to tell them to get a permit.


President Jerry Thompson asked, who does he report back to.


Director Weaver stated, the County Commissioners.


President Jerry Thompson asked, not to you at all?


Director Weaver stated, no, I have no jurisdiction over him. The reason Mr. Anderson went down there originally is because of the violation on the garage. He has the right to go inside a structure and I do not. I asked for him to go down and check the property for us.


David Scott stated, I know we have heard this before, if some one calls the office and they don’t get the right information, as far as I’m concerned when they call there they should be give the information and given all of the options.


Director Weaver stated, I agree with that, but I find it very hard to believe that anyone of my girls would have said that they did not need a permit.


David Scott stated, well there is no way of proving that.


Director Weaver stated, my girls are educated enough to know that a fence needs a permit.


Susan Snyder stated, I know that there is a problem there and that is one reason why I was upset because when I went into the office I said this, Diann asked where is Steve Snyder and I said well he is at work and who are you. I said I’m his wife and my name is on it to. She asked, Paula are there any other names on this property. She said no there are not.

My name is on everything, so I know there is a problem in there.


President Jerry Thompson stated, we still have a motion here, is there another motion, more discussion.


Carol Stradling stated, I guess in answer to your question that they seem to be trying to come into compliance, just seems to me a long time between September 26 and November 20, to acquire a survey to know where the property line is. I understand granted that there could be misunderstandings, I don’t like the idea that what is coming out of the office is questioned. We don’t know what was said, even if that is given there is an awful amount of time that passes between September 26 and November 20, when a surveyor is contacted to find out where the property line is. When down at the bottom application it indicates that is what we need to know. That is primarily where my concerns are. Yes I understand that things happen, but.


David Scott stated, it sounds to me that it is an issue of putting a value on the violation or what ever. I gave my opinion and I will withdraw it. You make one.


Carol Stradling stated, I move that the violation and the fine stand. I think that is why the fine was instituted, why it was established, it appears that Diann has documented several conversations and several bits of correspondence.


Attorney Altman stated, we aren’t there yet. The board is discussing.


President Jerry Thompson stated, we have a motion on the floor and do I hear a second.


Gary Barbour stated, I think that $25 is to light and I think that $500 is too much. They are trying to come into compliance and may or may not have been drug in. However, like Dave says, if it is going on in Brookston, and it flows with the rest of the neighborhood. I guess Carol that fact that it has taken so long for us to get this thing finally resolved, but I don’t know if there are 110% at fault.


Carol Stradling stated, I like the fence, I have no problem with the fence. I’m just not sure I understand the steps that were followed to bring it into compliance once they realized that something else needed to be done.


Attorney Altman stated, they asked for the survey on the 21st and got one on the 4th.


Carol Stradling stated, they were denied on the 26th.


Attorney Altman stated, I understand but I’m saying that is how long it took.


Carol Stradling stated, I understand, but if you were contacted on the 27th of September, could he have been there in October instead of December.


President Jerry Thompson stated, we have a motion on the floor for imposing the fine as in our ordinance. There has been no seconds. Gary do you care to make a motion?


David Scott asked, Dave what do you think, you haven’t said much.


David Stimmel stated, I asked the questions I needed.


Gary Barbour asked, can I get you to amend your motion?


Carol Stradling stated, it died because of a lack of a second. We need a new motion.


Gary Barbour stated, I make a motion that we fine them $200.


David Stimmel stated, I will second it.


President Jerry Thompson stated, it has been moved and seconded to impose a fine of $200. All those in favor signify by saying “aye” all opposed. 4 yes and 1 no.


Without further discussion the board voted on the fence variance.


The Board finds the following:


1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.


2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.


3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.


4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.


5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.


6. That the request is for a 10’ front setback variance to bring a wooden

fence under 4’ into compliance with the ordinance on Lots 3 and 4 in Block 22 in the Original Plat of Brookston, White County, Indiana.


COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located in the Town of Brookston at 504 S. South Street.

7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.

The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.


****

#2274 Michael Bolden; The property is located on .13 of an acre, South of Lowe’s Bridge at 4290 Taft Court.

Violation: None

Request: He is requesting a 30’ front setback variance and a 5’ east side setback variance to add a loft to the existing home.

President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone here representing this request?

Michael Bolden stated, I’m Michael Bolden.

President Jerry Thompson asked, do you have anything additional that you want to add?

Michael Bolden asked, when it says a 30’ from the front of the survey to the front of the house, is that from the street or the lakeside?

Director Weaver stated, lake side.

Michael Bolden stated, I would just like to add that the reason that I bought this home was that my father had a lake home here. He just passed and we bought what we could afford and we looked for a long time. The house I didn’t think the roof was in that much of need. I thought it was just shingles, but after we purchased it, we went up there. We plan on moving here as soon as our kids get out of school, which is in another 3 years. The cost of the roof and we are going to move here, it is smarter for me to put a loft in there and have the space.

President Jerry Thompson asked, Diann do you have anything on this matter?

Director Weaver stated, no, just that I would like to add that he has been to the health department and has a letter from the health department, also a letter from the SFLECC.

Michael Bolden stated, I did follow every step to get where I’m at now. I dealt with Joe Roach, and I dealt with everyone.

President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone here who cares to address?

Ken Schlegel stated, I’m Ken Schlegel. I own the property here on the right. Is he asking just to keep his or is he asking to take 5’ from mine?

Michael Bolden stated, I’m not taking any property from anyone.

Ken Schlegel stated, that is all I wanted to know. Why does he have 4290 on my address has changed? There is a plaque there with 4288 on it. It has been there for 5 years.

Sandy Bolden stated, I’m Sandy Bolden. Diann is working on getting our address all straightened out. Technically we had two houses with the same address.

Ken Schlegel asked, how can that be?

Sandy Bolden stated, before we bought it both houses have the same address. Diann is taking care of that.

Director Weaver stated, that is true and we have sent out a letter to Mr. Schlegel changing his address to 4292.

Ken Schlegel asked, do I have to change the title and everything on it to get this new address.

Director Weaver stated, unfortunately yes.

Several are talking at once.

President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anymore discussion? Anything from the Board?

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District

2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.

3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.

4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.

5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.

6. That the request is for a 30’ front setback variance and a 5’ east side setback variance to add a loft to the existing home on a parcel of land out of the North Half of the Northwest Quarter of Section 5, Township 27 North, Range 3 West, White County, Indiana, more particularly described as follows:

Beginning at a point that bears West a distance of 1,354 feet and 196 feet South and 484 feet South 1 Degree and 15 Minutes East and 325 feet East from the Southwest corner of the Southwest Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section 32, Township 28 North, Range 3 West; thence East 100 feet to the line of the Northern Indiana Electric Power Company; thence meandering with said line South 18 Degrees East 39 feet 6 inches; thence South 53 Degrees West 139 feet; thence North from the line of Northern Indiana Electric Power Company 1 Degree and 15 Minutes West 122 feet to the place of beginning, containing Twenty-one (.21) Hundredths of an acre, more or less;

EXCEPT: Beginning at a point that bears West a distance of 1,354 feet and 196 feet South and 484 feet South 1 Degree and 15 Minutes East and 375 feet East from the Southwest corner of the Southwest Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section 32, Township 28 North, Range 3 West; thence East 50 feet to the line of the Northern Indiana Electric Power Company; thence Meandering with said line South 18 Degrees East 39 feet 6 inches; thence South 53 Degrees West 78 feet; thence North from the line of the Northern Indiana Electric Power Company 1 Degree and 15 Minutes West 84 feet to the place of beginning, containing .08 of an acre, more or less.

COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located South of Lowe’s Bridge at 4290 Taft Court.

7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.

The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.

****

#2275 Terry L. Patterson, Owner; L. Dowal Dellinger, Applicant; The property is located on .057 and .058 of an acre, West of Lowe’s Bridge at 6152 N. Harding Court.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting a 5.33’ side setback variance and a 2’ rear setback variance to place a pole barn on the property.


This request was tabled.


****

#2276 Town of Chalmers; The property is located on 0.02 and 0.037 acres just South of the Town of Chalmers on the West side of the State Road 43.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting a 60’ front setback variance to replace a meter building for the Chalmers Sewer System.


President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone here representing this request?


Doug Barnard stated, I’m Doug Barnard, on the Town Council.


President Jerry Thompson asked, Doug what else do you have to add to this?


Doug Barnard stated, IDEM required us to build a new sewer, we have no choice. As part of that project we need a new lift station on the South end of Town. The existing building that was there was down and all of the plumbing is in place. Oversight from our Engineer in that he did not think a permit was required up front because for two reasons. It is only a 12’ x 12’ building, and because it is for a municipality for a sewer system we are exempt from the state. He made the wrong assumption that we were exempt from the local also. We have since discovered that and trying to get the variance to bring everything into compliance. The town doesn’t own any other property there. All of the pipes are in place and that is where the lift station has to go. IDEM basically set the rules for us and told us what we had to build.


President Jerry Thompson asked, are these manholes, are they going to be exposed. Are they going to be within the perimeters of the building?


Doug Barnard stated, the only thing in the perimeter of the building is what the concrete pad is. There is a big piece of styrofoam wrapped around some pipes. The lower left picture there is a concrete pad. The building is on that.


Carol Stradling stated, so this box will be just like it is.


Doug Barnard stated, yes. I won’t swear to it, but it will be just like that.


Attorney Altman asked, what is inside the building.


Doug Barnard stated, a meter. Mr. Anderson and I walked through the prints a few weeks ago and I was trying to explain it to him because he was questioning it and what all was involved. This all came about originally 2 years ago. It was a prefab lift station that would require no permit, but would have had the same building. It would have been apart of this prepackaged unit. Since it would have been part of the sewer the equipment no permit would have been required, but since we bid it a year later with an alternate, instead of the prepackaged unit, it saved us around $1000.


Now we are at the point that we need the variance to set the building.


Bob Young stated, I’m Bob Young. The guy with the fence had a violation because he built the fence without getting the permit and the town doesn’t have a violation but they built the building without getting the permit. They got a deal here that says they are replacing an existing meter building. The building that they are replacing has a 6 cylinder gasoline engine and half a dozen cans of gasoline and anytime it rained and crapped backed up it would run all night and vibrate all the windows on all of the houses surrounding it.


Attorney Altman asked, this doesn’t have that right?


Bob Young stated, the thing that concerns me is they have a generator pad there, when they built the last hole in the ground and I’m not being sarcastic about that it flooded within a year or two and it never worked in the last 20 years. Every time it rained you had to have 4” part stuck in the manhole for the 6-cylinder gasoline engine. I have put mufflers on that engine at 3:00 in the morning. I live in the house North of it and I own the house on the other side of it. I’m all for them building the sewer, but this thing is turning into a mess. One of my other concerns on it I guess it shouldn’t come before this board, but this hole here and you guys can keep the pictures in 30’ deep and 4 x 4 lid on it standing open. All of the neighborhood kids around there could fall in the hole. This is a manhole setting here with a hose in it. They are still pumping it, if you step in that you are going to take a trip. It is a safety factor and that doesn’t come under the building area, but they don’t have enough ground there to build a building on. No one else has enough ground to build a building on it. If we can get a variance on this I would like for a hot dog stand on the other corner. They have problems and I have problem now because they have dug my tile up and so far managed to block the South flow water that is backing up into my yard. They are assuring me that they will ditch out the ditch along 43 again. They will hook it back up and clean this up. I want that as a matter of the record. You can’t build a building on a piece of property 40’ x 40’ because you have the diagram here says they got 5’ from the back of the stack and if you go down and measure it, it is actually 2’. They have no acceleration.


This description here is not right. There is not a tile going across 43. They have this tile going East and West and the tile is running North and South along 43. This doesn’t have the acceleration lane or entrance lane here. You can see by the pictures it is approximately 7’ from the highway. This deal is 30’ x 15’ road. I spend the summer. My driveway runs this property line. Part of this is dug under by driveway. It is actually under my driveway. The water is backing up there.


Carol Stradling asked, so you are over here Mr. Young?


Bob Young stated, no, I’m straight back this lane. My house sets approximately right here. This is the property line and it has a square driveway that runs straight up this property line. This doesn’t exist. This corner post is the edge of my property, it runs back, and the driveway follows this property straight back.


They are going over the pictures and survey.


President Jerry Thompson asked, what is going to be the power supply there, Doug?


Doug Barnard stated, I’m not familiar enough with the actually workings of all of the mechanical equipment. My understanding though is that the new generator and all of that are down at the plant.


David Scott stated, this thing is only going to run when the power is out. The one they had before ran every time they got to much water. Is that correct?


Bob Young stated, the other one ran 22 years because 2 weeks after they turn it on it flooded that 30’ hole because of the crap goes into that hole before it comes up in my yard.


David Scott asked, this is just going to be an emergency stand by generator?


Doug Barnard stated, yes. It is a new generator.


Attorney Altman stated, I guess what I hear is an objection, is the noise.


Bob Young stated, the noise and the building. You can not leave a 30’ hole. If I left a 30’ hole next to your driveway, someone would sue me. Close the door on the thing. I spent 10 years trying to get them to put a door on the other one.


Attorney Altman stated, can I try to bridge this gap by indicating that if the board considers and approve this variance that there is the assurance from the applicant that it will not have, it will be quiet and not be heard by you and anybody in the home.


Bob Young stated, you can’t build it on 40’ x 40’. If you give them a variance where you can build a building on 40’ property that you own in White County, then you can give anybody in town a variance. You didn’t want to know the old guys $500 fine down on the fence, to put a fence in Brookston that runs with the rest of them. But we are going to build a building on a 40’ property. That is not enough ground to build a building on. I’m sorry that Chalmers don’t own anymore. They need to buy some off of me or the guy next door. If you want to build a pole barn on your farm or farm 90 acres on 60, you are going to have to buy the other.


Doug Barnard stated, we have been cited by IDEM for a lot of spillage in the area and this is one of the reasons.


Bob Young stated, yea, but that doesn’t clean it up out of my yard and when you guys clean that 30’ tank out you pump it into my yard.


Doug Barnard stated, that is why we are building a new plant.


President Jerry Thompson asked, Dave do you have something?


David Rosenbarger stated, I’m representing Linda Rockaway, the owner to the South and the West. She lives in Cincinnati. She asked me if I would come and talk to you. Her concern, her family has sold the town of Chalmers land twice and she doesn’t want to do it again. She called me and said she got notice that they are asking for a 60’ setback and make sure it is going to fit in that 40’ x 7’ x 40’. I asked Diann Monday night and I got a copy of the Engineering survey. Ken Smith, Fanning & Howie is their engineering firm. I spoke with Kenny last night and expressed by concern. When you look at that survey there are no points. There are no pins and he said, well he was told it needed to be a survey or an engineering survey. I will go do that in the morning if it is not right I will call you or have Doug call you. I came by there on my way tonight this building is less than 2’ from the South line. It does not meet your advertising. They have to have 2 setbacks. I understand and Ken told me last night, I don’t know what we are going to do because the other company sunk those pipes, poured all of this concrete for this gentlemen to build the building. He said, if it is in the wrong place I don’t know what we are going to do. My concern is that she was not notified that they need two setbacks.


President Jerry Thompson stated, the property lines and the building.


Doug Barnard stated, I don’t have a copy of the survey. Can I have a copy?


David Rosenbarger stated, the survey is not right.


Several are talking at once.


President Jerry Thompson asked, for the building or the property line?


David Rosenbarger stated, the property line. What Linda is concerned with is on her drawing it showed on the South 5.7’, 5.7’ from the West. Ken went out there and put the actual points, all 4 in the ground.


Several talking at once.


David Scott stated, they are opposed to that building being 2’ from the property line?


David Rosenbarger stated, pretty much, but what it is going to amount to and I think what I’ve got to do for her is put it off because it wasn’t advertised right. Linda doesn’t want to sell them any more ground, so I’ve got a feeling that she will work with them, but I’m not going to say that tonight.


President Jerry Thompson stated, plus you measured and your footages aren’t on here and they are not advertised.


Doug Barnard stated, you are saying because we only advertised for a front setback. My question is what is the side and rear setback? Commercial is zero.


Director Weaver stated, not for an accessory building.


Doug Barnard stated, this is the only building on the lot.


President Jerry Thompson stated, while she is looking Bob, do you have something else to say?


Bob Young stated, I went down and measured 40’ from the corner post over. They moved the corner post when they dug it out last time when they put the sewer in. The corner post is not a boundary line.


David Scott stated, you are saying the measurements that they measured from today may not be accurate.


Bob Young stated, I know the measurements that they measured with a ruler today is not accurate because they didn’t survey the piece of property that they own. They don’t know what they bought originally.


David Rosenbarger stated, Ken told me last night that he had a starting point that he could lay this out.


Doug Barnard asked, is this stamped by a licensed Surveyor?


Director Weaver stated, no, it is stamped by an Engineer.


Several talking at once.


Director Weaver stated, Article 4.1012 rear and side yard accessory building. An accessory building that is behind the rear building line maybe erected within 5’ of a side or 5’ of a rear lot line.


Doug Barnard stated, I come back and ask why is this an accessory building.


Director Weaver stated, as I explained to Dave when we were talking, I treated it as an accessory building because the main plant is not on this location.



Doug Barnard stated, this is all that can go at this location.


Director Weaver stated, I’m not saying that I looked at this right. It could be considered a primary building.


David Rosenbarger stated, if it is a primary then you don’t have enough square footage.

They don’t have an entrance off of the highway.


Director Weaver stated, no entrance off the highway, not meeting the size requirements for the lot.


Doug Barnard stated, I don’t know, I just want to know what needs to be done to be able to build it right. We don’t have a choice.


Director Weaver stated, the property is zoned an A-1. If it is treated as a primary building it will have to be 80’ from the road right-of-way, a 100’ from the rear and 15’ from each side.


Doug Barnard stated, because it is an ag.


Director Weaver stated, yes.


Doug Barnard stated, so we would have to get it rezoned to change that.


David Scott stated, okay you’ve got to have the lift station where it is. You are unhappy about it.


Doug Barnard stated, we don’t have, the only other thing I can say from the Towns standpoint, if we have to have more land and nobody will sell it to us.


David Scott stated, you will condemn it and take it.


Doug Barnard stated, you got it.


Several talking at once.


Carol Stradling stated, we need to table this until we get it right.


Attorney Altman stated, it can be tabled it to determine whether it is right or wrong.


Doug Barnard stated, I disagree with that.


Attorney Altman stated, they need to take care of the waste problem and the noise problem.


Doug Barnard stated, the only issue here is a 12’ x 12’ building.


David Rosenbarger stated, and the setbacks.


Several talking at once.


President Jerry Thompson stated, so we are going to table this.


Attorney Altman stated, they need to re-advertise it also.


Director Weaver stated, we will re-advertise it and file a new application and notify everyone.


Doug Barnard stated, so another 2 months.


Director Weaver stated, at least one.


President Jerry Thompson stated, so we are tabling this until the February meeting.


Carol Stradling asked, Doug can you address the safety issues with them. There needs to be a construction fence around it and let them know that something is going on. The city would be responsible if something happened.


****

President Jerry Thompson asked, Diann is there anything else?


Director Weaver stated, I have been contacted by the Alcohol and Tobacco Commission. They have an application for someone to sell guns and they want to do it as a home occupation. Our ordinance doesn’t address this and it is not something that I wanted to make a decision on. I wanted the boards help on this. He is asking me if they can do it as a home occupation or what is proper zoning for gun sales. I can not answer the question. I have discussed this with John Raines and John Raines says that we really shouldn’t even go there. These people want an answer.


Attorney Altman stated, they should apply for an interpretation of the ordinance. Written application and give us the property and everything and we will rule on it.


Director Weaver asked, how can you notify the neighbors if it is county wide?


Attorney Altman stated, I wasn’t looking at it as county wide. It is a specific.


Director Weaver stated, I think we have to.


Attorney Altman stated, in effect we do, it’s like this thing here. The 40 x 40 that Bob Young just talked to us about. That is a countywide decision. If you make it here you make it everywhere. However, all of the applications need to be personalized to a particular tract of ground. That modifies it some and limits it some. Always does and always would. There are some areas where, small business beside a church or what have you, might find the lot a different response.


David Stimmel stated, my question Diann, is who has contacted you again?


Director Weaver stated, The Alcohol and Tobacco Commission.


David Stimmel stated, okay the ATF has contacted, and the only reason I’m saying this is because I use to have a Firearms license myself 25 years ago. There are a lot of people that still do that out of their homes. They do it so that they can buy firearms, components, and things like this at cheaper prices. They don’t trade a lot of guns, they don’t do a lot of business, or anything like that. It is just convenience. It is a record-keeping nightmare anymore, but it is still a convenience for them. That is why I’m asking, I have never heard of that being done for the ATF.


Director Weaver stated, this is not the first time they have contacted us to check zoning before issuing a license.


David Stimmel stated, so in other words this has been done before. Is that what you are saying?


Director Weaver stated, well the one I can think of before they never followed through.


Carol Stradling stated, Jerry if it is not addressed in the ordinance, then doesn’t that go back to the County Commissioners.


Attorney Altman stated, this body interprets it.


Director Weaver stated, this board interprets the ordinance.


Attorney Altman stated, all I’m saying is, it is nearly impossible for you to interpret it until you get to a specific example.


Director Weaver stated, that is the part that I don’t understand, this ordinance pertains to County Wide, how do you look at one property specifically and make one decision and look at another property differently.


Attorney Altman stated, we just did so, we granted.


Director Weaver stated, but that is a variance.


Attorney Altman stated, no a special exception.


Director Weaver stated, but that is not what they are requesting. The ordinance doesn’t say they have to request that. They are not requesting anything. They came to me to ask what the proper zoning is and I’m coming to the board for an interpretation of our ordinance.


David Scott stated, maybe it should be like a dog kennel, it doesn’t fit under.


Attorney Altman stated, that might be, it might need to be.


David Scott stated, you have to look at each individual.


Director Weaver stated, I agree with that, but that is what I need the board to.


David Stimmel stated, I disagree with that, in the sense if it is not specifically stated in the ordinance then I think by default it is not part of the ordinance.


David Scott asked, can you put it anywhere?


David Stimmel stated, put what anywhere, if it is a business, if someone has a business, if they are running it out of their home, it is no different then whatever kind of business. A business out of your home is not in the ordinance.


Director Weaver stated, that is why I’m asking.


David Stimmel stated, that is what I’m trying to say. In other words you have, if someone is running a business out of their home, and they are zoned residential that is improper.


Director Weaver stated, we do allow some home occupations.


David Stimmel stated, okay.


Director Weaver stated, that is what they want to, well the only way it is addressed in the ordinance. It doesn’t say what can be considered a home occupation. That is the problem too.


Carol Stradling stated, it doesn’t say.


Director Weaver stated, the ordinance doesn’t say what is a home occupation and what is not. It says “a customary home occupation” are allowed in residential districts provided that.


David Stimmel asked, what is the definition of a home occupation?


Director Weaver stated, customary home occupations are allowed in residential districts provided the following conditions are met. It goes into that they can’t change the outside appearance, can’t occupy so much space, so is this.


David Stimmel stated, so if I wanted to run a cleaning business out of my home and I hire 2 or 3 people to work with me on this cleaning business.


Director Weaver stated, you can not have any employees. That is one of the things.


Attorney Altman stated, so again it comes down to is it or isn’t it. I guess my point is.


Director Weaver stated, (She is reading out of the home occupation ordinance page to the board members.)


David Stimmel asked, do we have anybody running a beauty parlor out of their home?


Director Weaver stated, yes, we recently just rezoned part of a residential lot for business for a beauty shop.


Carol Stradling stated, I would think as long as it does comply with those requirements, it’s allowable.


David Stimmel stated, that’s what I think, I agree. If it meets those requirements.


Director Weaver stated, that is what I had come up with myself, but because of the business I wanted to make sure with the board. I did not want to make this decision on my own.


Carol Stradling stated, there is probably no way we can verify that they are properly licensed through the ATF each year or how often do you have to re-certify or re-license.


David Stimmel stated, I don’t know how often they have to. There is an annual fee each year and provide the paper work each year. I just don’t know.


Carol Stradling stated, it might be nice if they can as a courtesy, copy that and let us know that they’re. What does the ATF do if somebody quits doing that or if they don’t apply for their license does the ATF then go check them and make sure they are still not doing it.


Gary Barbour stated, home land security I bet that is really stiff.


David Stimmel stated, they collect all of the books. You have to keep records of everything and they will collect them. When our house burnt out West of Monon, I had my SFLL at that time. I never got the first call from anybody, not one word. That was a long time ago, it was 25 years ago, but still it was amazing to me, I had 30 or 40 firearms and 30lbs of powder and shot. The reality of it was I didn’t hear one word from the ATF.


President Jerry Thompson asked, do you have anything else Diann?


Director Weaver stated, that is it, Gary the complaint log I sent. Gary has requested a copy of this and this is what I had come up with. It took me a while to come up with something. Hopefully this will give the board what they want to know.


President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else?


Director Weaver stated, I have one more question. Where do we stand on the Provo file?


Attorney Altman stated, a letter has gone out.


Director Weaver asked, when is it going out?


Attorney Altman stated, tomorrow.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

Gary Barbour, Secretary

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission