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The White County Board of Zoning Appeals met on Thursday, August 19, 2004 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.
Members attending were Gary Barbour, David Scott, Carol Stradling, Jerry Thompson and David Stimmel. Also attending were Attorney Jerry Altman and Director Diann Weaver.
Visitors attending were: Joseph R. Maxson, Jeremy R. Maxson, Janet Pigecella, Stephen R. Pacey, Lou Delp, Frances Frist, Raymond Post, George Koppelmann, Don Knop (SFLECC), Kirk Dahlenburg, Daniel Dahlenburg, Lloyd Pelfree (SFLECC), Joe Roach (SFLECC), Daryl Johns (SFLECC), Norm Mills (SFLECC), Bruce & Charlotte Rayburn, A. Joseph, Trent Gifford, Jan Conwell (SFLECC), Mike Sterling (SFLECC), Larry East, Butch Moody (SFLECC), Dave Alm, Louie Laskowski, John Koppelmann and Lance Schwab.
The meeting was called to order by President Jerry Thompson and roll call was taken. Carol Stradling made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the May 20, 2004 meeting. Motion was seconded by Gary Barbour and carried unanimously. Attorney Altman swore in all Board members and audience members.
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#2335 Fat Ngai Siu & Gum Ying Chan ‘etal’, Owner; Lance D. Schwab d/b/a The Finishing Touch; The property is located 0.286 of an acre beside 1516 N. Main Street in Monticello.
Violation: Doing a transient business without having an approved Special Exception and a shed on the property without a building permit.
Request: He is requesting a Special Exception for a mulch business that is being done as a transient business.
President Jerry Thompson asked, do you have anything that you would like to add to this before I turn it over to the board members?
Lance Schwab asked, do you want me to tell you why I should have it there or?
President Jerry Thompson stated, whatever you would like to present to the board.
Lance Schwab stated, okay this is a business that my brother and me have started, actually, me and my siblings. We started this about 6 years ago and this is the first year we have expanded. We have expanded to 3 other spots. We are based out of Remington. Monticello is one of the
sites that we have expanded too. The use of the shed is to house the bobcat and other office
equipment and supplies and we feel it is necessary to keep vandalism from the bobcat. The bobcat is a key necessity to the business because it loads the mulch. We use the mulch business to help pay for college and get us going in life.
President Jerry Thompson stated, okay, all right. Have a seat there and be handy. Diann do you have anything that you want to present on this.
Director Weaver stated, no, other than this is something that we have not dealt with before. There is a section in our ordinance that does address a transient use business and it does have a special exception and can go in a business zoning, which this property is properly zoned for business. The only thing he did not do is come and gets his special exception prior to setting up the business.
Attorney Altman stated, and he didn’t get a permit for his building.
Director Weaver stated, he has come in and applied for it and that is when we informed him that he had to have the special exception, so that has not been issued, but it has been applied for.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry?
Attorney Altman stated, no, I was just putting the whole violation on the record.
President Jerry Thompson stated, back to you sir.
Lance Schwab stated, I was not aware that I had to have a building permit, I have never had to have one in another county. I had a complaint about it and then I came to the Courthouse and get everything squared away, so we can get this matter settled.
President Jerry Thompson stated, okay, any of the Board members have any questions?
David Stimmel stated, Lance you said you had other locations. Where are they?
Lance Schwab stated, one is in Muncie and one is in Watseka, Illinois.
David Stimmel stated, two very large towns at least those two are. I would assume that you would have had to have a building permit there of some kind.
Lance Schwab stated, well actually in Muncie we are at the Rural King. We are doing it in the parking lot there. We are doing it in a strip mall in Watseka.
David Scott asked, do you have buildings at those locations?
Lance Schwab stated, yes I do.
David Scott stated, and you didn’t have to have a permit.
Lance Schwab stated, no.
David Stimmel stated, that you are aware of or you know you don’t.
Lance Schwab stated, I have neither check into it or had any complaints.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary or Carol?
Carol Stradling asked, when did you put the building up?
Lance Schwab stated, about May, sometime in early May.
Carol Stradling stated, okay just so I can get the sequence down somebody complained to you or to Area Plan.
Lance Schwab stated, Area Plan.
Carol Stradling stated, okay and then they contacted you.
Lance Schwab stated, yes and then I scheduled the meeting and got a sign up there right now.
Carol Stradling asked, so you have paid the fines?
Lance Schwab stated, well not the fine.
Director Weaver stated, he paid the filing fees.
Carol Stradling stated, okay. So do you understand the violation?
Lance Schwab stated, I believe so, I’ll tell you what I think.
Carol Stradling stated, you should go to the microphone so we can get this on record.
Lance Schwab stated, I didn’t get the special variance like before I had the building there and I put it there without being allowed to pretty much and so this is my penalty for doing that. Is that close enough?
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary do you have any questions for him? Is there anyone here who cares to speak either for or against?
Janet Pigecella stated, I’m Janet Pigecella and I live behind this business. I have no problem with the business, I take exception that it is a flood area behind all three of those businesses. The restaurant, this gentlemen’s business, and the gas station all of the houses behind that I represent them, Jack Snider, John Garver and Mr. Hettinger and myself. All of our houses flood, we depend on that drain that is by the store and lock, which is a nice drain for us, it keeps that ground right behind the business from flooding. When that ground floods our storm drain in front floods and then our houses flood. The mulch travels to that drain, so I would appreciate it, if something is done so that the mulch does not travel across that grass into that drain and plug it up. Also since I live right behind the building I have watch the area kids play king of the mountain on those mulch humps and I hope the main has insurance because those kids can get hurt real easy. They are little kids riding bikes right up the mulch. We do have pictures of the mulch plugging, Jack Snyder has the pictures and he is ill right now and couldn’t be here to night. There are pictures that the mulch does go across the ground when we have storms. I wonder if something can be done like a barrier, I don’t know. I didn’t know that mulch would do that, but it does.
David Scott asked, is there anywhere stated, that they have to have containment for mulch or stone piles? There is no regulations or anything?
Director Weaver stated, no not that I’m aware of.
Attorney Altman stated, obviously with a special exception you can make those conditions as a part of your voting and as part of, if this is approved it would be required to do that. Limited somewhat or something.
Carol Stradling asked, how long do you plan on operating the business in this location?
Lance Schwab stated, until October 2 and then we will start cleaning it up.
Carol Stradling asked, do you plan on returning next year?
Lance Schwab stated, we are not sure yet.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is this your first year in business?
Lance Schwab stated, the first year in business in Monticello and 7 years total. We have been in Remington for the past 7 years. As far as returning next year, we will not return to that same location, but we may return somewhere else. We will let you know first.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone else here who cares to address this variance?
Bob Wrede stated, I’m Bob Wrede of Wrede and Son’s excavating. Evidently I’m a competitor of Lance’s. I am opposed to this and the main reason I’m opposed to this is because where it is located. The business is basically triangle to 3 existing businesses in Monticello that already sell the same product that he does. It is very difficult for a company like mine or any others that is a fixed company that does have property, that does have buildings, that does have employees. It is a very seasonal business for a short period of time. It is really hard for business like ours to compete because he doesn’t have the over head, but again there is no tax bases for the community, the payroll goes outside the community and it is really hard to function. If Lance would like to take down property and build buildings and put in structures and incur the same expenses that we do and level the playing field I wouldn’t have any problem with that. We consider the other people that do that in our community that our business that is not a problem. I just don’t think it is right especially in a small town environment like this when already the need of the community is meant by existing businesses that our here. To allow a playing field to come in and not level for the existing business owners.
President Jerry Thompson asked, are there any questions for Mr. Wrede?
Carol Stradling stated, I do have one question. Do you, how do you contain your mulch?
Bob Wrede stated, everything is setting on concrete slabs and incased in decorative masonry blocks. You do have a dying problem because a lot of the products are died and when it rains it comes off. You will always have some kind of run off and still going to have a certain amount of coloring.
Carol Stradling asked, are you and this is for the record. Are you in a residential area where there are children that would come and ride their bikes up and down?
Bob Wrede stated, no we are zoned Industrial I-1.
Carol Stradling asked, right there on 6th St.?
Bob Wrede stated, correct.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else Carol?
Carol Stradling stated, not for Mr. Wrede.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone else who cares to address the variance?
Any comments or questions from the board.
Attorney Altman stated, for the record it is zoned B-2, not residential.
Carol Stradling stated, but there are residents in the area, and there are not on 6th St.
Attorney Altman stated, maybe, it depends on what you mean in the area.
President Jerry Thompson asked, how do we want to handle this? Do we want to deal with the violation first or go with the variance request first?
Attorney Altman stated, it is a special exception.
President Jerry Thompson stated, excuse, special exception.
Carol Stradling stated, typically we deal with the violation first, I don’t see any reason to waiver from that at this point.

President Jerry Thompson asked, is that agreeable?
David Stimmel stated, yes.
President Jerry Thompson asked, any discussion?
Carol Stradling stated, I don’t think there is discussion, but is it appropriate to through out some though process and considerations.
Attorney Altman stated, yes and make a motion.
Carol Stradling stated, I’m not ready for a motion yet, I think your idea is creative I would like to encourage creative business ideas. I do also feel and I’m not sure where you got your business experience or who has guided you through the process, but it seems that you kind of failed on a couple of areas. That would be to check the area that you are locating to verify that you have meet all of the requirements for that area. I don’t know what your insurance liability is, but that is certainly would be a consideration also. I don’t know if that goes into the mix here, but it certainly is a business and certainly planted itself without contacting any of the local authorities to verify what was needed and I guess that is the concern here and the violation.
President Jerry Thompson stated, Dave.
David Scott stated, well normally we would handle the violation first and then the special exception next, but I will be up front I’m not in favor of this special exception because of couple of things that have been brought up here. I don’t know how any body else is going to vote, but if your special exception doesn’t pass I would be in favor of waiving the fine so that. He is a young fellow going to school and every thing and needs his money for other things. On the other side of that if the exception passes I think he should have the $500 fine because he didn’t get the permit and we fine everybody else and he didn’t keep it on a level playing field. That is how I feel about it.
Carol Stradling stated, so you want to move that we deal with the special exception first.
David Scott stated, I would like to deal with them together. Can we do that. Maybe you don’t feel like I do, I don’t know.
Attorney Altman stated, the only thing is that it is hard to vote simultaneous.
David Scott stated, I understand.
Attorney Altman stated, to know, in other words you want to know the results of the special exception before you vote on the other. The simple thing is to vote on the special exception first and the violation later on. There is no reason why we can not do that. Make a motion Dave and see if it is second.
David Scott stated, okay, let's see if there is anything else said.
David Stimmel stated, Lance I have a couple more questions for you. How did you pick this particular spot?
Lance Schwab stated, actually it all began in High School last year. I was in the BTA, I was the president of that last year in high school and I went to nationals in that and I did this same business in that and that is how it all began. We thought of Monticello, nice town, Wrede and Sons would be are main competitors, we thought, they have mulch, stones and excavating. I believe their main business is excavating gravel. We did have them put gravel down in our area. We have located people who work there from Twin Lakes. From the BPA business plan is where it came from.
David Stimmel stated, I guess what I’m curious about is how you picked that specific geographic spot not just Monticello.
Lance Schwab stated, actually that was not our first choice at all, that is a terrible spot and I will never go there again. Our first spot was Dye Lumber area and they said they didn’t have room for us. This was a last minute spot there.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary do you have anything for him?
Gary Barbour stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson stated, the only thing I have Dave is I understand where you are coming from, but are we setting a precedent if we go along with your thoughts there? Others are going to say well we will test them out and see how far we can go before we get out hands slapped.
David Scott stated, I think you are right, I honestly think this guy didn’t know he needed a permit.
Carol Stradling stated, I have a couple more questions. When did Area Plan approach you on getting the appropriate permits.
Lance Schwab stated, I don’t remember the exact dates.
Carol Stradling stated, you have been doing business since May. Was it June, July, the letter is dated August 5?
Director Weaver stated, I believe he filed the request in June, but he was not able, he knew at the time that he was not able to attend the July meeting. He told us right up front he could not attend the meeting and that is why it went on the August meeting.
Lance Schwab stated, I would have had my Dad or my partner come, but neither one could make it.
Carol Stradling stated, so sometime June or July you were aware that there were violations.
Lance Schwab stated, yes.
Carol Stradling asked, did you contact the Area Plan office in Muncie and Watseka to determine that there might be some other permits that might be needed in those locations.
Lance Schwab stated, no I didn’t because….
Carol Stradling stated, even though that is not the situation here in Monticello.
Lance Schwab stated, I didn’t check it.
President Jerry Thompson asked, when you were in Remington were you located on another business's property?
Lance Schwab stated, yes.
President Jerry Thompson stated, for 7 years.
Lance Schwab stated, yes, we don’t have a building there though.
David Stimmel stated, I have a question for Bob. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I’m curious about the competition aspect of this. At were or what location would you consider it not being competitive and where is that line? See what I mean in other words if someone went out here to Rangeline Enterprises out here and set up a mulch business out there and already owned the property etcetera, etcetera. Would that be considered competitive and would you object to that?
Bob Wrede stated, yes, first off Lance I think being a young entrepreneur is the best people in the whole world. Hats to you and keep going. I really feel bad about even being here, I wish your Dad had come I don’t mind beating up on older guys. To say competition, I think if Lance wanted to presented his number because I have watched his operation and he is failing miserably where he is located at right now. He hasn’t replenished any of his single loads because if he did we would be talking about the traffic problem and the semi’s trying to back in off of Main Street. I’m hoping he figures out that this market is already sewed up enough that he won’t try to come back again. But to answer your questions Dave, it isn’t a demographic location. I guess the biggest reason I’m here tonight is number one it is almost to me offense that the community or the county didn’t react quicker than it did. When a business, when I set here and work in the community day in and day out and support the County day in and day out and I work with Area Plan office almost on a daily bases and the Building Inspectors and you know I’m constantly being challenged to meet my requirements of the ordinances and regulations and all of a sudden something comes in that is a violation and we are not going to talk about that because it could have an impact here. I’m going now wait a minute what are we doing here. If you don’t like the ordinance change it, but the way I’m being told if it is in the ordinance that is the way it is going to be. When it comes back in my opinion because everytime you allow a special exception for a transient business to come into the community. You are taking revenue away from the community. I don’t see the value of ever letting any transient business in this community, if what ever that transient business is selling already being sold in the community. Especially in a small community that is struggling already. It doesn’t matter whether it is shoes, or its anything that anyone else sells in the market. Do you see what I’m saying you can’t and I said because it is tough to compete? Our prices are competitive with Lance’s but his profit line is a lot higher. We have to sell volume to come up and when we have all of these fixed costs. I feel like our business is an asset to this community, when a business like this transient business comes in, there is no benefit to the community unless he is meeting a need that isn’t being met. I think the mulch is being exceeding meet it he Monticello Area, with businesses that are a part of the community already. When you ask demographic locations I don’t look at it that way.
David Stimmel stated, I appreciate the explanation, it helps.
Lance Schwab stated, I thought with the population you have an extra 5,000 people or so and I thought it would be good for the mulch income. You do have the mulch in this area covered. About coming back next year there is a 25% chance that we will, we did not do well here. We have other sites that are keep able compared to this one Monticello does not match up to the other sites. The other towns, there's no competition, but here you guys have a lot of mulch here.
President Jerry Thompson asked, okay where do we go from here?
David Scott stated, I would like to make a motion that we vote on the special exception first. That will determine how I vote on the fine.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is that agreeable?
Gary Barbour stated, I have a question. If we vote on this, it is granted, and it is a transient business what does that do with the special exception? Is it over when he moves out or does it stay there?
Attorney Altman stated, it doesn’t, the one thing that I certainly indicate is if you are going to vote on the special exception that you would have it only until October 2nd. This particular business takes adequate and necessary steps to prevent the mulch from plugging up the drain tiles in this area.
Gary Barbour stated, I guess what I’m hearing here is and you tell me if I’m wrong, that we have a business here, a transient business. It is obviously not doing well and he may or may not come back next year and we are not really taking any money out of the community from what I’m hearing. I guess it is a learning lesson for the community and a learning lesson for him at this point. Why not let him stay here, let's not give him a huge fine, obviously he is not making a lot of money and after October 2, the special exception would be over with. He has to take care of the neighbors so he is not ruining the drains and stuff like that and maybe get a protective fence or construction fence to put around the mulch and call it a day.
Carol Stradling stated, when you say a construction fence Gary, you are not talking about the orange weave, you are talking about something.
Gary Barbour stated, I’m talking about something with a barrier so kids are not going in there and messing around with it.
Carol Stradling stated, I guess the other option would be if we do tell him that he needs to move, how or if we deny it tonight you would have to remove all of that material. How would you do that? What would be the impact of that?
Lance Schwab stated, it would be very expensive and we would just be loading it up and taking it away.
Gary Barbour stated, you think that you would be loading it up and taking it away October 2?
Lance Schwab stated, yes.
David Scott stated, what if we just let him go until October 2, that is only another month and then.
Gary Barbour stated, that is what I’m saying. He is going to be moving it in another month anyway.
Attorney Altman stated, you probably should have the special exception, otherwise, you still have a violation.
David Scott asked, can he have a temporary special exception?
Attorney Altman stated, you sure can, you can limit it.
David Stimmel stated, that was Bob Wrede’s point that is the ideal that he is dealing with this stuff on a daily base and so is everyone else. It doesn’t seem fair.
Gary Barbour stated, but the other side of that and again nothing against you Bob, the other side of this is what is to keep someone else that owns a piece of ground already that is paid for and doesn’t have the overhead, they are going to be able to do the same thing with the proper permits.
President Jerry Thompson stated, well they can do it without the proper permits, we have proven that.
Attorney Altman stated, you have a motion and we need a second.
David Stimmel stated, we are still discussing it.
Attorney Altman stated, you need a second before you can discuss it.
President Jerry Thompson stated, all I’m saying is that Joe Schmoo is saying I’m going to take a shot at it. Repeat the motion please.
David Scott asked, what is the difference?
Attorney Altman stated, you moved that you vote on the special exception first.
David Scott stated, we are talking about a month. He isn’t making any money, what is the difference between leaving it up now or loading it up in month or so.
Bob Wrede stated, he is going to have to have a sale, cutting it to half price to get rid of it.
President Jerry Thompson stated, okay back to the motion like Mr. Altman said. Dave you made the motion, would you repeat it.
David Scott stated, I’m thinking about it now.
David Stimmel stated, here is one of my concerns Gary, that is by denying this special exception are we saying any transient business that comes in that competes with an existing business in White County is bad for the community period.
Gary Barbour stated, that is a fine line.
David Stimmel stated, is it a fine line or it is what I’m concerned about. I’m not sure what kind of signal that we are sending or is it the right signal. This troubles me.
Gary Barbour stated, I agree with you hole heartily.
David Scott stated, I think that you are going to have to look at each one of them individually.
Gary Barbour stated, I guess that is what our board kind of does, even though they may look like the exact situation they are not. Every situation is different, every individual is different all of the evidence.
Carol Stradling stated, at some point you have to look at it as two separate things. One there is a violation and one he wants a special exception. One the way it happened is wrong, two is a special exception allowable. They are tied together, but then they are separate.
David Scott stated, I’m setting here thinking out loud, but I think I would like to see him start loading it tomorrow. Then I would like to see him not be fined also.
President Jerry Thompson stated, let's go back to the original. With the special exception first. We have other business tonight, not to rush you, but we have other business.
David Stimmel stated, I will second Dave’s motion to deal with the special exception first.
President Jerry Thompson stated, it has been moved and second. All in favor signify by saying “aye” and all of those opposed.
Attorney Altman stated, wait, wait, wait, now is the time that you have discussion. I guess you can proceed.
Carol Stradling stated, he moved and second and now there is now more room for discussion.
Attorney Altman stated, however you can call for the question and vote.
David Scott stated, if we turn this down, when does he have to, does he cease and decease immediately or does he.
Attorney Altman stated, you make that part of the requirement.
President Jerry Thompson stated, we can handle that in the violation.
Carol Stradling stated, that would have to be a result of the vote. The vote might reveal he is allowed to stay.
David Scott stated, right, exactly.
Attorney Altman stated, as I understand it the actually thing on the table is a motion to reverse the order and do the special exception first.
President Jerry Thompson stated, that is right.
Attorney Altman stated, you can still amend the special exception before you vote on that and limited to the times, like you are talking about Dave. When he has to move it and that sort of thing.
President Jerry Thompson stated, if you gets rejected he is out of business.
Attorney Altman stated, that is right.
Gary Barbour stated, if he is rejected, how many days does he have to get it out.
Carol Stradling stated, I think we are putting the cart before the horse. We need to address that after the vote.
President Jerry Thompson stated, is that agreeable.
Carol Stradling stated, it has been moved and seconded that we vote on the special exception first.
President Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
Carol Stradling stated, then we need to vote on that motion.
President Jerry Thompson stated, all in favor. Motion carried.
Attorney Altman stated, the special exception in conversation you ought to make a condition that it cease as of October 2, the mulch be stored someway that it doesn’t plug up the drains and doesn’t cause a hazard to he young people.
Carol Stradling asked, Lance is it possible, you were planning on ceasing after October 2, is there any thought to ceasing business prior to that.
Lance Schwab stated, no there is not.
Carol Stradling stated, so October 2nd is your date. Are you familiar with soil erosion and fences that construction sites use to keep debris and soil.
Lance Schwab stated, so keep the mulch there.
Carol Stradling asked, how quickly could you get that installed? I don’t even no a source for that, but I imagine construction companies would have that. I guess at this point I would move that the special exception be amended to state that it would cease no later than October 2 and that an erosion control fence would be installed no later than this Saturday, which would be the 21st.
President Jerry Thompson stated, say that again.
Carol Stradling stated, I would move that that the special exception be amended to include the statement that it would cease operations no later than October 2 and that an erosion fence be installed no later than Saturday, August 21. We haven’t voted on it yet.
President Jerry Thompson stated, no, but you are still saying if it is denied you are still allowing him to be in operation until October 2.
Carol Stradling stated, no, I’m saying it is amended and we vote on whether that is approved.
Attorney Altman stated, it has to be approved.
Carol Stradling stated, you can’t vote on approving it or not approving it and then amend it.
President Jerry Thompson stated, we need a second.
David Scott asked, what was the other amendment beside the fence.
Carol Stradling stated, he has to cease by October 2.
Gary Barbour stated, that means it has to be gone by October 2.
David Stimmel stated, cease business by October 2.
President Jerry Thompson stated, if approved.
David Scott asked, what if he leaves the mulch there all winter?
Director Weaver stated, October 2 is his last day.
Gary Barbour stated, I will second it.
President Jerry Thompson stated, we have motion and a second, any discussion.
David Stimmel stated, I would prefer that the motion read that the business cease immediately and that the mulch be cleared out by October 2 and the fence still be put up. Here is my reason, number one they have been in operation for 7 years, the fact that they have not ran into this situation up to this point and time, either is a miracle or just dumb luck, I don’t know what it is, but something has happened that they have not run into it, they have run into it and someone has complained. I have a hard time believing in Delaware County, which is Muncie and Watseka...
Lance Schwab stated, we have been in Remington for the last 7 years, this is the first year we have went anywhere else
David Stimmel stated, okay, you may run into this at the other sites for the heck of it, but I think there is enough experience there that this shouldn’t have been done. The only way in my mind is to stop it is to say stop it right now. We should have done that possibly 3 months again, when it was brought to our attention. I’m not concerned about the fine, that is a separate issue and as far as the special exception that would be my reasons for denying it.
Carol Stradling stated, I understand what you are saying Dave, I guess what I’m saying is that would, I don’t know how that would effect. How do I want to say this?
Gary Barbour stated, you would be voting to that.
Carol Stradling stated, you would be voting for, then the special exception wouldn’t exist.
David Stimmel stated, so if the special exception isn’t approved then business would cease immediately then.
Carol Stradling stated, correct
David Stimmel stated, that is fine.
Gary Barbour stated, if it is approved, those controls would be put in it.
Carol Stradling stated, was my intent in making that motion.
David Stimmel stated, that makes more sense.
Carol Stradling stated, so it has been moved and seconded.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anymore discussion. Are we ready to vote.
David Stimmel stated, wait, I want to make sure what we are voting on. We are only voting on the motion, not the special exception.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is everyone clear?
Carol Stradling stated, correct the two, he would cease operations by October 2 and put an erosion controlled fence would be installed no later than Saturday, August 21.
President Jerry Thompson stated, moved and seconded. All in favor signify by saying “aye” and all of those opposed? Motion carried 3 to 2.
Attorney Altman stated, now you are ready for the main motion for the special exception as amended.
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That there were objectors present at the meeting.
2. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners
3. That the request is for a Special Exception for a mulch business that is being done as a transient business on property commencing at the Northwest corner of Section 28 Township 27 North Range 3 West in the City of Monticello, Indiana: Thence East 908.5 feet; thence South 20.00 feet; thence South 26 degrees East 320.00 feet; thence East 130.00 feet to the point of beginning;
Thence North 21 degrees 08 minutes West 76.45 feet; thence North 70 degrees East 120.0 feet; thence South 26 degrees East along the West line of Main Street 125.00 feet; thence West 140.0 feet to the point of beginning, containing 0.286 of an acre.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located beside 1516 N. Main Street in Monticello.
4. (1) Section 10.20 of the Zoning Ordinance (does) (does not) authorize the special exception for this use in this zoning district. Vote: 4 does 1 does not.
5. (2) The requirements and development standards for the requested use as prescribed by the Zoning Ordinance (will) ( will not) be met. Vote: 4 will, 1 will not.
6. (3) Granting the special exception (will) (will not) subvert the general purposes served by the Ordinance. Vote: 3 will, 2 will not.
7. (4a) Granting the special exception (will) (will not) materially and permanently injure other property or uses in the same district and vicinity by becoming noxious. Vote: 1 will, 4 will not.
8. (4b) Granting the special exception ( will) (will not) materially and permanently injure other property or uses in the same district and vicinity by becoming offensive. Vote 1 will, 4 will not.
9. (4c) Granting the special exception (will) (will not) materially and permanently injure other property or uses in the same district and vicinity. Vote: 3 will, 2 will not.
The variance was denied based on the findings of fact by a vote of 1 for and 4 against. A vote of 3 “for” is necessary to grant a variance.
President Jerry Thompson stated, we need to address the violation. Dave I will turn to you, I think you probably had as good an idea.
David Scott stated, yes, I would like to make a motion that we, but I really hate to do this, but I’m going to make a motion that we waive the fine.
President Jerry Thompson stated, it has been motioned that we waive the fine. Do we have a second or discussion?
Carol Stradling stated, well if we address an issue that has been brought up in an earlier discussion, now that he is not granted the special exception he will have to cease business and remove that mulch. Which does have its own cost associated with that. I would second waiving the fine, all though I agree it is hard when. I would have felt better had you checked with the other department, the other Area Plan offices to see if there were other permits that you need to do business that is a part of business is to make sure that you comply. I would second your motion Dave.
President Jerry Thompson stated, okay it has been moved and seconded any other discussion before the vote. Dave do you have something?
David Stimmel stated, it just seems to me historically that we have not waived the fine completely in very few extraordinary cases. Some fine is appropriate that is just my opinion. I’ll leave it at that, I’m not hung up on a number, but I think something is appropriate.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary any thoughts.
Carol Stradling asked, do you care to share.
Gary Barbour stated, I don’t agree with Carol, he is already fined enough because he has to move it out.
President Jerry Thompson stated, it has been moved and seconded, excuse me.
Carol Stradling stated, one more point of discussion.
President Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
Carol Stradling stated, there is always that chance that he won’t be able to get it moved and he will continued to do business.
Attorney Altman stated, that is another violation.
Carol Stradling stated, we can waive this violation and it doesn’t waive any potential or future for revisiting the violation.
David Stimmel stated, let me be clear before we vote that Lance understands completely. What the situation is, the special exception has been denied, he is to cease business immediately, right?
Attorney Altman stated, yes.
David Stimmel stated, move the mulch in any time frame or did we set one.
Attorney Altman stated, right now or he is violating the ordinance.
Director Weaver stated, it is easier for me if there is a time frame.
Carol Stradling asked, how long will it take you.
Lance Schwab stated, if you could give me until October 2.
Gary Barbour stated, keep in mind you can’t sell anything.
Lance Schwab stated, I will need some time to get a truck.
President Jerry Thompson stated, I agree with Mr. Wrede, you are young and you are trying and I can not push that off to the side, but did it take you that long to get set up for business.
Lance Schwab stated, (can not hear, he was not at the mic)
President Jerry Thompson stated, how long did it take to set up, bringing your materials to town, how long did it get you to set up for business. I can not see where it would take 6 weeks to get out of business so to speak.
Lance Schwab stated, it only took about a week to set up.
President Jerry Thompson stated, I understand that there is school and so forth, I understand that I have a daughter that goes to school.
Lance Schwab stated, would have month be quicker, I mean I will get it done as soon as I can. So if you want to go a month that is find.
Director Weaver stated, that would include the building.
Lance Schwab stated, the building we could just pull out, it is scooping it up and putting it in the trucks that takes time. When you unload a truck you just push a button.
David Scott stated, October 2 is not that far off and as long as he isn’t selling anything.
Lance Schwab stated, I can put that fence up.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is that agreeable to the board?
Carol Stradling asked, will you keep in contact with Diann and let her know what you are doing? She is at the Area Plan office, if you could email her everyday and let her know what you have lined up, I’ve got these people, just let her know you are making progress and you don’t have to call. Just so she knows you are doing what you can. IS that acceptable Diann.
President Jerry Thompson stated, back to the original motion. Dave.
David Scott stated, I move that we remove the fine.
Carol Stradling stated, I seconded it.
President Jerry Thompson asked, are we ready to vote? All in favor signify by saying “aye” and all of those opposed? Motion was carried by a 4 to 1 vote.
****
#2336 Joseph R. & Linda n Monticello. S. Maxson; The property is located on Lots 45 and 54 in J.C. Reynolds Third Addition at 417 Dewey Street
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 16’ front setback variance to build a detached garage.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone here representing the Maxson’s?
Joseph Maxson stated, yes, my name is Joseph Maxson.
President Jerry Thompson stated, okay, do you have anything you would like to present to the board, other than what I have read?
Joseph Maxson stated, no, it is just a garage and storage.
President Jerry Thompson asked, okay Diann do you have anything?
Director Weaver stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry?
Attorney Altman stated, no, oh what is the height of the garage?
Joseph Maxson stated, just the standard garage with 8’ walls and the peak is 4’ from that.
David Stimmel stated, yes.
President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone care to address this variance either for or against?
If not any questions from the board? Carol?
Carol Stradling stated,
President Jerry Thompson stated, it is a part of our job. Nothing? Is that a no?
Gary anything, Dave Scott, or Dave Stimmel. There is nothing else? Ready to vote?
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 16’ front setback variance to build a detached garage on Lots 45 and 54 in J.C. Reynolds Third Addition to Monticello, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located 417 Dewey Street in Monticello.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
****
#2337 David C. Alm & Eileen L. Laskowski; The property is located on the South side of Lot 3 and the North Half of Lot 4 in Block 4 in the Original Plat at 307 S. Prairie Street in Brookston.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 3’ front setback variance and a 12’ rear setback variance to add on to the existing home and to bring it into compliance.
President Jerry Thompson asked, and sir you are?
David Alm stated, I’m David Alm and my wife Eileen Laskowski, we want to add on to our house to bring my mother-in-law into the house because she is in a situation that she can not be on her own anymore. We are putting an apartment on for her and we are also bringing my nephew in who has been living with her. We are the legal guardians of him. He is deaf and mentally handicapped. We are bringing the two of them in, so we are adding an apartment for her. W are also putting a garage on the back and we would normally we could have it be a separated garage except for she doesn’t get around very good and for the winter it would be nice to have it attached. If it were a separated garage it could be 5’ from the line, but since it is attached it has to be 30’ from the line and so anyhow we would like to do that. The front part the house was built in 1854 to 1858 and it sets 3’ farther then it is suppose to be, so if the house ever burned we couldn’t build it back like it was.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Diann?
Director Weaver stated, yes, this property is currently zoned B-2. The APC did approve the rezoning on it last week. Did that go to the Town of Brookston?
David Alm stated, to be honest I do not know that.
Director Weaver stated, I intended to call and find out.
David Alm stated, I have had a hectic schedule and I didn’t make it to the meeting the following day. I had an emergency call and I wasn’t off for it.
Director Weaver stated, at this time I’m unaware if it has been passed by the Town of Brookston. I guess what I’m saying is, this variance would be contingent upon being rezoned, in other words it is in nonconforming use. It is zoned B-2, we don’t allow residence in business zoning.
David Alm stated, the reason it was, when the uniform zoning thing went through, as I understand it, it use to be zoned R-2/B-2 and a lot of properties in town in the business areas or close business were dual zoned. When it went to the new zoning thing it had to be something but only one thing. It became B-1 and now that we are hoping to change it, it has to come into compliance.
President Jerry Thompson stated, he mentioned a garage.
Director Weaver stated, yes.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry do you have anything?
Attorney Altman stated, no I don’t. It just needs to be like Diann said contingent upon the rezoning being approved. We have done that several times.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone here who cares to address the variance? Mr. Alm stay handy. Carol do you have any questions for Mr. Alm.
Carol Stradling stated, the 3’ front setback you are not adding on to the front and you are still further back then the house to your North. Is that correct?
David Alm stated, yes and on the back it is consistent with the houses back there. Anyone who faces 43 on the front as we do, Ripley is the back and the North part of it just turns into peoples back yard and on the South part it really turns into an alley. So we would be back as far as the farthest back setback of the garages currently.
Carol Stradling stated, also I’m looking at the survey that indicates that there is a shared garage, which is on the property line.
David Alm stated, yes we are tearing down our third of it.
Carol Stradling stated, okay, so that portion of it is coming off.
David Alm stated, yes.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary, do you have anything? David Stimmel?
David Stimmel stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Dave Scott?
David Scott stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there any other discussion?
David Stimmel asked, is it going to be the same height as the rest of the house.
David Alm stated, slightly higher the roofline is East to West and it is like a T shaped house. The new part goes up a little higher.
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned R-3, Multi-Family Residential.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 3’ front setback variance and a 12’ rear setback variance to add on to the existing home and to bring it into compliance on 43.5 feet off of the South side of Lot 3 and the North Half of Lot 4 in Block 4 in the Original Plat of the Town of Brookston, White County, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located at 307 S. Prairie Street in Brookston.
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
****
#2338 George W. & Donna L. Koppelmann; The property is located on .340 of an acre, North of Monticello at 4918 N. Boxman Place.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 3’ South side setback variance to replace an existing detached garage.
President Jerry Thompson asked, sir you are?
George Koppelmann, stated, I’m George Koppelmann.
President Jerry Thompson asked, do you have anything that you would like to submit?
George Koppelmann stated, just to say it was a camp cottage to begin with and it was in very disarray. I thought I would tear it down and put a garage up.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Diann?
Director Weaver stated, I do not have anything.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry?
Attorney Altman asked, this will be on the sewer system?
George Koppelmann stated, well I’m debating on that whether to put any water or, there won’t be any bathroom in it. I’m debating.
Attorney Altman stated, I’m talking about the home?
George Koppelmann stated, there isn’t a home there is it down.
Attorney Altman stated, oh okay, so the home is gone.
George Koppelmann stated, I’m going from the foundation.
Director Weaver stated, there is a home there.
George Koppelmann stated, my home, yes.
Attorney Altman stated, that home is on the sewer system.
George Koppelmann stated, yes.
Attorney Altman asked, when is it going on that.
George Koppelmann stated, I hope it will be within two years.
Carol Stradling asked, is it on sewer?
Director Weaver stated, no, not at this time.
Carol Stradling stated, not at this time.
Director Weaver stated, but it is in an area that will be getting sewers.
Carol Stradling stated, okay thank you.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anyone here who cares to address the variance? If not Carol do you have anything else.
Carol Stradling stated, I’m reading in the report where it currently has two dwellings, but it sounds like you have torn one of those down.
George Koppelmann stated, correct.
Carol Stradling stated, it has a detached garage.
George Koppelmann stated, besides the one I’m going to build.
Carol Stradling stated, okay, then you are going to put up a storage building or a garage on the cottage that has been torn down.
George Koppelmann stated, on the foundation that has been torn down.
Carol Stradling stated, so there will be one house and.
George Koppelmann stated, 3 bay garage another detached, and two detached. I already have an existing 2-car garage detached now. Then to the East of it I’m going to build another garage where the camp cottage set.
Carol Stradling stated, I’m also looking at a 10’ x 32’ building closes to the roadway.
George Koppelmann stated, yes.
Carol Stradling asked, so you will have 3 garages?
George Koppelmann stated, yes.
Carol Stradling stated, and one house.
George Koppelmann stated, yes ma’am.
Carol Stradling stated, in these pictures the truck is setting on the location where the garage will be.
George Koppelmann stated, correct.
Carol Stradling asked, we don’t have a picture that would include that 10’ x 32’ building?
Director Weaver stated, no, if you look at the top left picture my car is on the right hand side.
Carol Stradling stated, it is right beside it.
Director Weaver stated, it is right beside the car. No I did not get that.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else? Gary, Dave and Dave? If not are we ready to vote?
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 3’ South side setback variance to replace an existing detached garage on a parcel of land out of the North half of the Northwest Quarter of Section Five (5), Township Twenty-seven (27) North, Range Three (3) West, White County, Indiana, more clearly described as follows:
Beginning at a point that bears West a distance of 1354 feet and 196 feet South and 20 feet West and 200 feet South 1 degree and 15 minutes East from the Southwest corner of the Southwest Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section Thirty-two (32), Township Twenty-eight (28) North, Range Three (3) West, thence South 1 degree and 15 minutes East 50 feet; thence West 304.5 feet to the line of the Northern Indiana Electric Power Company; thence meandering with said line 15 degrees West 2.5 feet; thence North 21 degrees East 51.8 feet; thence East from the line of the Northern Indiana Electric Power Company 288 feet to the place of beginning, containing .340 acres, more or less.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located North of Monticello, at 4918 N. Boxman Place.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
****
#2339 George W. & Donna L. Koppelmann; The property is located on .340 of an acre, North of Monticello at 4918 N. Boxman Place.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 5’ height variance to have a second story in a detached garage.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Diann do you have anything?
Director Weaver stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry?
Attorney Altman stated, what you are asking for is the storage area or the shed you got permission to put on there to make it higher.
George Koppelmann stated, to put a second story on it. It would be probably 7’ high so I can stand in it. It would take it above the 17’ allowance. I will be 22’ high.
Attorney Altman asked, would this be for human habitation?
George Koppelmann stated, no. I’m a pack rat I need storage.
Attorney Altman stated, that would be limited so it would never be human habitat.
George Koppelmann stated, it can be made into living space if someone else comes in before you, but I’m not going to make it livable.
Attorney Altman stated, they would have to come in for a variance.
President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone care to address the variance? Dave Stimmel any questions?
David Stimmel stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Dave Scott.
David Scott stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary Barbour?
Gary Barbour stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Carol?
Carol Stradling stated, yes. I guess I was concerned with the point that you just raised. You can say you wont’ have any living space there, but we really don’t have any way of verifying that anybody who purchases it after him or anybody in the future does not turn that into living space.
Attorney Altman stated, other than policing it. That is the way it always is. We do have it of record and it would show it recorded and limiting for not only himself but anybody else it the future. IT is the best we can do.
Carol Stradling asked, how tall is your house?
George Koppelmann asked, my house now?
Carol Stradling stated, yes.
George Koppelmann stated, it is right at 22’, without the dormer on it, that will put it at 24’.
Carol Stradling stated, it is not on sewer it is on septic, so if it were become living space.
George Koppelmann stated, it would have to go to sewer with 50/50.
Carol Stradling stated, I guess I just have concerns there.
George Koppelmann stated, I will have it blocked off so if someone goes to make it livable area they’ve got to go to the sewer people to get hooked up to it. They have to apply for it. They told me that I have to, if I’m not going to hook up now. I have got to have people come out and make sure that I have everything blocked off as is, so I don’t go to sewer. If I go to sewer I have to have people come out and check it out to get hooked up to it.
Director Weaver stated, Carol, the sewer district isn’t going to check with us prior to hooking up.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else Carol?
Carol Stradling asked, you could build it to the 17’ without the height variance, correct?
George Koppelmann stated, well.
Carol Stradling stated, is that what we are saying?
Director Weaver stated, yes.
Carol Stradling stated, no more questions.
President Jerry Thompson asked, are we ready to vote?
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 5’ height variance to have a second story in a detached garage on a parcel of land out of the North half of the Northwest Quarter of Section Five (5), Township Twenty-seven (27) North, Range Three (3) West, White County, Indiana, more clearly described as follows:
Beginning at a point that bears West a distance of 1354 feet and 196 feet South and 20 feet West and 200 feet South 1 degree and 15 minutes East from the Southwest corner of the Southwest Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section Thirty-two (32), Township Twenty-eight (28) North, Range Three (3) West, thence South 1 degree and 15 minutes East 50 feet; thence West 304.5 feet to the line of the Northern Indiana Electric Power Company; thence meandering with said line 15 degrees West 2.5 feet; thence North 21 degrees East 51.8 feet; thence East from the line of the Northern Indiana Electric Power Company 288 feet to the place of beginning, containing .340 acres, more or less.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located North of Monticello, at 4918 N. Boxman Place.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 2 negative.
****
#2340 Rosebud Ranch, LLC, Owner and Arthur Joseph, Applicant; The property is located on 123.349 acres, West of Brookston at 326 W. 1050 S.
Violation: None
Request: He is requesting a Special Exception to have an Agricultural Business.
President Jerry Thompson asked, sir you are?
Arthur Joseph stated, I’m Arthur Joseph.
President Jerry Thompson asked, will you come forward please?
Arthur Joseph stated, I’m Arthur Joseph. I’ve owned property in the Brookston area for about 7 years and have been planning my dream house and barn for about 5 years. When I started to build the barn it was originally private for me and a couple of friends to train some horses and sell some horses and have a good time. I wanted to be able to work with some kids and maybe have some 4-H clinics there and that is when it all came up and I needed to be rezone to have the kids in there and all of that. In the mean time there has been literally hundreds of people come through there and it is a nice barn, it is heated, so it will go through the winter comfortably. I’m getting all sorts of hits, I’m having people want to bring in 20 to 30 people for shows and demonstrations and on, on, on. I started rethinking it. I don’t know to what extent. I’ve been approached by a grain dealer from Ohio who wants me to sell grain. I would like to do that and I believe it is a better grain. I just don’t know to what extent I want to have the shows. I would like the freedom to do them if I choose so. I did reverse course and I did go to the state and I have been commercially accepted. I’m missing the terminology here. They have blessed it, it is commercially acceptable to do business in. Mr. Anderson, here in White County is still over seeing it. It is commercially zoned. That is where I am. It is probably one of the top 3 or 4 nicest barns in the State. I think White County will really do well. It has been explained to me that half of the people who would come there would need hotel rooms and I have had two people come in with questionnaires and top 5 questions are, is there hotels available and are eateries close. I think it is a win, win. My contractor is from White County and I have kept as much in the county as feasible. Not everything was kept here. I would like to put on some demonstrations, I’d like to legally train horses, that is another issue, I would like to do some boarding, like to sell some grain and I’d like to raise some cattle.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Diann do you have anything to follow that.
Director Weaver stated, I kind of wanted to explain a little bit, when he says it is commercially acceptable. He has gone through the State and got his construction design release from the State of Indiana for this to be a public building. Dave Anderson has over seen it and has made sure it is built to the State Codes for the public meetings.
Arthur Joseph stated, that is what I meant, thank you.
Director Weaver stated, you are welcome.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else?
Director Weaver stated, well no, I guess just to help the board a little bit, I don’t think the board is familiar with the horse showing aspect. Typical show, a horse trailer has campers in it and room to haul all of the horses as well. Will they be camping on the property?
Arthur Joseph stated, limited camping.
Director Weaver stated, that is one thing I wanted to let the board know.
Arthur Joseph stated, very limited, I’m not a hotel, and I’m not going to be chasing down drunks, very limited. Smaller shows, we are not talking large horse shows that bring in 500 people. We are talking small shows of 40 people controllable for my own sack.
President Jerry Thompson stated, more of a one-day type thing.
Arthur Joseph stated, one day or maybe two. I’m going to limit it, I really don’t want to be a slave anymore. I really want it to be a learning center an education center. The latest thing in horse industry is to have the guru’s in to put on seminars and stuff. Probably not as many horses there as people at these shows or demonstrations.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry do you have anything?
Attorney Altman stated, this would be in our ordinance a stable or riding area.
Arthur Joseph stated, stable/riding area, I would sell feed. In time I would like to have a tack store there. I think this area really needs a decent tack store and I would like to move into that too. I take that back it is a boarding stable, training stable, no one will be riding. Having the public come in and ride is a whole different animal that I don’t have the gumption for.
Carol Stradling stated, during the demonstrations people would be riding the horses in the stables, but it would not be a public riding stable. I guess when you have demonstrations that they would be riding demonstrations.
Arthur Joseph stated, some are and some are not. What will happen a guru will come in for a lack of better word and the 10 people will bring their horses in and he will train them and help the people train them while 50 watch.
Carol Stradling stated, okay, but potentially there will be people riding horses, but not just a general mass of. I could bring in $50 and I want to ride my horse.
Arthur Joseph stated, no public, no you bring in your horse and sign a release and you ride your horse, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary, Dave and Dave? Does anyone here care to address the variance either for or against?
Arthur Joseph stated, I think it would be a feather in White County’s cap. I think that a situation like this might make it arguable the horse capitol of Indiana. If I play my cards right. No guarantees.
President Jerry Thompson stated, it looks very nice.
Attorney Altman stated, you certainly have a physical plan to work from.
Arthur Joseph stated, you know I do, it was just meant to be selfish, I had every intentions of vanishing from the face of the earth and it just didn’t come out that way.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there any other discussion before we vote?
Carol Stradling stated, it looks like there is a parcel property that you surround, those people have received a letter.
Director Weaver stated, I believe that home is abandon.
Arthur Joseph stated, yes ma’am and the home is in disrepair and abandon. Every week I’m chasing kids off of it.
Carol Stradling asked, where is the barn in to relation with that.
Arthur Joseph stated, about due South about 400’. They won’t have access to it.
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned A-1, Agricultural.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a Special Exception to have an Agricultural Business on that part of the South half of Section 21 and the West side of the South Half of Section 22, Township 25 North, Range 4 West in Prairie Township, White County, Indiana described by:
Commencing at a railroad spike at the Northwest corner of the Southwest Quarter of the above said Section 21; thence North 89 degrees 33 minutes 15 seconds East (Indiana State Plane Coordinate System) along the quarter section line 1485.00 feet to a railroad spike and the point of beginning; thence North 89 degrees 33 minutes 15 seconds East along the quarter section line 2857.40 feet (2871.40 feet record) to a PK nail in the bridge floor over Moots Creek; thence along the center line of Moots Creek South 25 degrees 32 minutes 45 seconds East 111.48 feet, South 29 degrees 43 minutes 45 seconds East 356.15 feet, South 39 degrees 40 minutes 45 seconds East 72.00 feet South 75 degrees 23 minutes 45 seconds East 116.34 feet and North 87 degrees 56 minutes 15 seconds East 234.67 feet; thence North 49 degrees 33 minutes 15 seconds East 59.69 feet to a ½ inch iron pipe; thence South 33 degrees 44 minutes 45 seconds East 833.80 feet to a PK nail; thence South 05 degrees 09 minutes 15 seconds West 123.00 feet to a railroad spike; thence South 00 degrees 30 minutes 15 seconds West 179.20 feet to the centerline of Moots Creek; thence North 43 degrees 44 minutes 45 seconds West along said centerline 60.00 feet; thence South 36 degrees 27 minutes 15 seconds West 77.00 feet to a ½ inch iron pipe; thence North 83 degrees 10 minutes 45 seconds West 498.90 feet to a corner post; thence South 01 degrees 21 minutes 45 seconds East 425.70 feet to a corner post; thence North 89 degrees 34 minutes 45 seconds West 1743.09 feet to a corner post; thence North 00 degrees 47 minutes 28 seconds West 567.67 feet (550.90 feet record); thence South 89 degrees 33 minutes 15 seconds West 1632.25 feet (1663.30 feet record) to a ½ inch iron pipe at the Southeast corner of the property as described in Deed Record 1989, Page 640; thence North 00 degrees 43 minutes 00 seconds West along the East line of said property 1237.50 feet to the point of beginning, containing 124.349 Acres, being 0.680 of an acre in Section 22 and 123.669 acres in Section 21,
EXCEPT, That part of the Northwest Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section 21, Township 25 North, Range 4 West in Prairie Township, White County, Indiana, described by:
Commencing at a railroad spike at the Northeast corner of the Southeast Quarter of said Section 21; thence South 89 degrees 33 minutes 15 seconds West (Indiana State Plane Coordinate System) along the quarter section line 1815.68 feet to the point of beginning; thence South 00 degrees 26 minutes 45 seconds East 290.50 feet to a ½ inch iron pipe; thence South 89 degrees 33 minutes 15 seconds West 150.00 feet to a ½ inch iron pipe; thence North 00 degrees 26 minutes 45 seconds West 290.50 feet to the quarter section line; thence North 89 degrees 33 minutes 15 seconds East 150.00 feet to the point of beginning, containing 1.000 acre.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located West of Brookston at 326 W. 1050 S.
7. That the special exception herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said special exception is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.20 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said special exception under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The special exception was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
****
#2341 Daniel Dahlenburg; The property is located on 8.116 acres, Southeast of Buffalo on C.R. 800 N. between C.R. 800 E and C.R. 900 E.
Violation: None
Request: He is requesting a 197’ separation variance from a hog confinement building to the nearest dwelling not located on the same tract.
President Jerry Thompson asked, you are?
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, I’m Daniel Dahlenburg.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Diann do you have anything?
Director Weaver stated, other than that we did grant them a separation variance for one building last year. That building is under construction at this time. At the time they came to the board then they weren’t, my understanding was they were not planning on a second building quite so soon. They are back now to start the second building.
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, yes that is true.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry, are you looking up the other? Okay, does anyone care to address the variance? Carol we will begin with you.
Carol Stradling stated, the one in October 16, 2003 the building is situated East and West?
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, no North and South.
Carol Stradling stated, on the current survey it shows North and South.
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, yes.
Carol Stradling stated, on the first one it shows East and West.
Director Weaver stated, I didn’t realize that either, it is showing East and West on the survey.
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, okay.
Carol Stradling asked, that is not going to affect anything?
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, no I already have my stuff. It doesn’t do anything different.
Attorney Altman stated, excuse the second voice is.
Kirk Dahlenburg stated, I’m Kirk Dahlenburg. We noticed it to, but we didn’t think it would make a difference.
David Stimmel asked, you are still the 136’ from the road?
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, yes.
Carol Stradling stated, it says from the centerline of the road.
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, yes.
Carol Stradling stated, so it is probably is 126’ from the edge of the road.
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, yes it will be 126’ from the edge of the road.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else Carol?
Carol Stradling asked, so where is the closest house?
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, my mom and dad.
Kirk Dahlenburg stated, it is our house.
Carol Stradling asked, you are going to let him do that?
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, yes he is.
Several laughing.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary, David Scott?
David Scott asked, are you in business in your existing building yet?
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, no.
David Scott stated, you are just building it.
Daniel Dahlenburg stated, yes.
President Jerry Thompson asked, are you done Dave Scott? Dave Stimmel?
David Stimmel asked, what about other houses that might be in the general location? Over half mile away?
Kirk Dahlenburg stated, they are farther away, some are 1800’ away. The closest house is East of us and it is like 1800’. The only house close to this is ours.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there any other discussion? Are we ready to vote.
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned A-1, Agricultural.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 197’ separation variance from a hog confinement building to the nearest dwelling not located on the same tract on that part of the Southwest Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section 13, Township 28 North, Range 3 West in Liberty Township, White County, Indiana described by:
Beginning at a railroad spike found at the Southwest corner of the Southeast Quarter of said Section 13; thence North 00 Degrees 42 Minutes 11 Seconds West (Indiana State Plane Coordinate System)along the quarter section line 854.00 feet; thence North 88 Degrees 25 Minutes 27 Seconds East along the centerline of an open ditch 414.00 feet; thence South 00 Degrees 42 Minutes 11 Seconds East 854.00 feet to a Survey nail set on the section line, passing through a capped W/I.D. ½ inch iron pipe set at 20.00 feet and 819.00 feet; thence South 88 Degrees 25 Minutes 27 Seconds West along CR 800N and the section line 414.00 feet to the point of beginning, containing 8.116 acres, more or less.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located Southeast of Buffalo on the North side of County Road 800 North between County Road 800 East and County Road 900 East.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
****
#2342 Stephen R. & Brenda J. Pacey; The property is located on Lots 48 and 49 in Gingrich Addition, South of Monticello at 5205 S. Gingrich Court.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 30’ front setback variance to build a new.
President Jerry Thompson asked, you are?
Steve Pacey stated, I’m Steve Pacey and I’m here representing my wife as well as myself. We own two lots in lower Gingrich Addition on Lake Freeman. We are apart of the sewer district the West part of it. Our property is about 77’ on the North and about 101’ on the West on a hill which goes down into Gingrich, 86’ on the South and 100’ of frontage along the front between our property and the waters of Lake Freeman. There is a large area that belongs to SFLECC and measures about 75’ on the South and 140’ on the North and 140’ of frontage on the lake. There is considerable amount of property between us and the lake. In order to get far enough off of the hill so we can get a car and garage attached we need to move it towards the front of the property. We intend to build out the front of the property. There will still be between 75’ to 140’ of lake level between us and the actual water.
President Jerry Thompson stated, thank you. Diann anything?
Director Weaver stated, I don’t have anything right now.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry do you have anything right now?
Attorney Altman stated, no, not now.
President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone care to address the variance?
Lloyd Pelfree stated, I’m Lloyd Pelfree, I wasn’t here for this reason, but I was just curious how far is this from the SFLECC line? You are talking about the lake, but how far from the line.
Steve Pacey asked, our improvement?
Lloyd Pelfree stated, yes.
Steve Pacey stated, we intend to build to the line. The deck would be to the line. The house would be about 10’ West of the line.
Lloyd Pelfree asked, are you aware of this Joe? Is this one that we signed off on?
Joe Roach stated, yes. I’m Joe Roach Land Manager of SFLECC. We received a letter on this, the notice of this and we went down to look at it. We were not requested for an official letter, for position from the Lakes group on this. It is one of those situations that it is not uncommon for all of the houses to be right to the line in that area.
President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone else care to address the matter? David Stimmel do you have anything for Mr. Pacey?
David Stimmel stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Dave Scott?
David Scott stated, I don’t think so.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary Barbour?
Gary Barbour stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Carol?
Carol Stradling stated, I’m looking down at the analysis and it says, it indicates that the assessor’s office shows a 7’ x 18’ boathouse, is that still on the property.
Steve Pacey stated, it is on SFLECC property.
Carol Stradling stated, so the boathouse is on the SFLECC property.
Steve Pacey stated, correct. It was on the property 40 years ago when it was NIPSCO.
I intend to take that down.
Carol Stradling stated, okay. It also says this property is or is not on the public sewers.
Director Weaver stated, it is.
Steve Pacey stated, it is.
Carol Stradling asked, it is?
Steve Pacey stated, it is, I have been paying $55.00 a month for some time now.
Carol Stradling stated, even though there has been no one there.
Steve Pacey stated, correct.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anything else Carol?
Carol Stradling stated, that is it.
President Jerry Thompson asked, is there anymore questions or discussion?
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 30’ front setback variance to build a new house on Lots 48 and 49 in Gingrich Addition in Union Township, White County, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located South of Monticello at 5295 S. Gingrich Court.
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in
nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation
under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of
property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
****
#2343 Larry T. East; The property is located on Lot 78 in Parse’s Forest Lodge Second Addition, North of Monticello at 5281 N. Stahl Road.
Violation: None
Request: He is requesting a 30’ front setback variance and a 2’ South side setback variance to enclose an existing concrete patio and to bring the existing home into compliance.
President Jerry Thompson asked, sir you are?
Larry East stated, I’m Larry East.
President Jerry Thompson stated, you are Larry East. Okay, do you have anything that you would like to present to us, other than what I have read?
Larry East stated, the only thing is, I would like to enclose the concrete patio with screen in porch not a full room. It is a screen in porch.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Diann do you have anything?
Director Weaver stated, no, other than we do have a letter on this one from the SFLECC.
President Jerry Thompson asked, do you have a copy of that Jerry?
Attorney Altman stated, yes. (Jerry proceeds to read the letter to the board).
President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone else care to address the variance either for or against? Carol we will start with you this time.
Carol Stradling stated, I guess when I looked at the survey I thought it was going around the garage, but it is actually going to the lakeside. Okay, the pictures show that. That is where the sliding glass, okay. That is it.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Gary, Dave, and David Stimmel anything?
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 30’ front setback variance and a 2’ South side setback variance to enclose an existing concrete patio and to bring the existing home into compliance on Lot 78 in Parses Forest Lodge Second Addition in Monon Township, White County, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located North of Monticello at 5281 N. Stahl Road.
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
****
#2344 Bruce W. & Charlotte A. Rayburn; The property is located on Lot 41 in H.P. Bennett’s Addition at 609 S. Bluff Street in Monticello.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting an 18’ front setback variance and a 1.5’ South side setback variance to add on and to bring the existing house into compliance.
President Jerry Thompson asked, you are sir?
Bruce Rayburn stated, I’m Bruce W. Rayburn.
President Jerry Thompson asked, do you have anything that you would like to add to what I read?
Bruce Rayburn stated, no, the reason I want to add on is we took custody of two granddaughters last year. We have a sizeable house, a little small, just to give us a little more space. We want to expand out the living room and activity room in the house. To keep things uncongested. That is the main reason to give us a little more elbowroom.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Jerry?
Attorney Altman stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, does anyone here care to speak either for or against? David Stimmel?
David Stimmel stated, no.
President Jerry Thompson asked, Dave Scott? Gary Barbour, and Carol Stradling?
Without further discussion the board voted.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for an 18’ front setback variance and a 1.5’ South side setback variance to add on and to bring the existing house into compliance on Lot 41 in H.P. Bennett's Addition to Monticello, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located at 609 S. Bluff Street in Monticello.
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
****
President Jerry Thompson stated, okay we shall move on. We have business here, which pertains to John W. & Elizabeth A. Samoska. I will call on you Diann, you probably have something there first.
Director Weaver stated, yes, just to give you a little background. This came to the board on November 20, 2003 for a setback variance and was approved. At that time we had a letter from the SFLECC, the variance was approved, they came in and got their building permit. They started construction and when they started construction it was realized that they were not building in accordance with what SFLECC had approved. They were building in accordance to what we approved, but with not with what SFLECC approved.
President Jerry Thompson asked, are they in attendance?
Director Weaver stated, Samoska’s are not.
President Jerry Thompson stated, they are not here. You are representing them.
Joe Roach stated, no I’m with SFLECC.
President Jerry Thompson stated, I thought so, but I thought someone said yes.
Director Weaver stated, they have continued to build, under Dave’s supervision, he did stop them at one point. This thing has just drug on and on. It is not going in any direction. They are in violation of the SFLECC and violation of the variance as well. We kind of held up on this hoping that they would work something out with the SFLECC, so we would know where to go with the variance. Things are not progressing and I'm coming to the board to ask direction on how we or what we want to do. I have not notified Samoska’s of this meeting, just because it is basically me to you to ask direction on how we want to proceed.
Attorney Altman stated, explain to the board how they are not complying.
Director Weaver stated, well what we determined is the survey that was presented to the SFLECC I failed to bring their file I have the permit file, not the variance file. The survey that they gave to SFLECC and went for approval and the survey we received for the variance were two different surveys.
Attorney Altman stated, they were significantly different. SFLECC didn’t know that our survey was different and we didn’t know that their survey was different.
Director Weaver stated, that is right.
David Scott asked, how did they get two different surveys?
Attorney Altman stated, that is a good question.
President Jerry Thompson asked, back up am I the only one bothered by this? We have SFLECC here, they are all here, and I’m not opposed to them being here, but you didn’t contact.
Director Weaver stated, I didn’t invite them.
President Jerry Thompson stated, okay, I was just curious how this was working.
Director Weaver stated, Joe contacted me and asked if I would bring this to the board.
President Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, they have come on their own, I have not invited them.
Attorney Altman stated, obviously we can not accept evidence of a violation without noticing up all the parties, but Diann can ask for direction from the board as to what would be or what you would recommend what the next step would be. We are not here to accept evidence. There are two different surveys, they had one, we had one, and we didn’t know they had a different one and they didn’t know we had a different one. That is basically where they are. We thought it would settle down a little bit because we had some meetings on this and it just hasn’t moved.
David Stimmel asked, can we ask SFLECC if they know what the difference in the two surveys is?
Attorney Altman stated, it is clear there is a difference.
David Stimmel stated, this maybe a stupid question, but surely two different surveyors.
Director Weaver stated, no same surveyor.
David Stimmel stated, same surveyor.
Director Weaver stated, the same surveyor, two different surveys.
President Jerry Thompson asked, are they going to be allowed to have any input in this?
Attorney Altman stated, I’m not sure, honestly. We just can’t accept evidence without having the other side here.
President Jerry Thompson stated, I know they want to speak and I want to make sure before they do if they can.
David Scott stated, they are not in violation of our variance or they are in violation? How do we handle that? Do we site them in here?
Director Weaver stated, let me kind of explain. They had an existing house, they wanted to build an addition on the roadside, they are on the water obviously. They wanted to build on the roadside. The existing home encroached on SFLECC property. The SFLECC approved for the addition to go up to their line, but the survey we were given shows the addition going across the line and encroaching on them as well. There is also there is a 6 inch on the existing home, there is a 6 inch off set on the front of the home, they have now built that off set in. That is where they have violated the variance.
David Scott asked, can we request a third survey with exactly where it is and then if it is not right, they are in violation? Is that not correct?
President Jerry Thompson asked, were the first two surveys down by the same surveyor?
Director Weaver stated, yes.
Carol Stradling asked, do they have the same dates on them?
Director Weaver stated, no.
David Stimmel stated, I asked that.
President Jerry Thompson stated, you did ask that.
David Stimmel stated, yes and she said no.
Director Weaver stated, I believe the survey that was given to the SFLECC was an old survey. An older survey than what we have.
David Stimmel stated, the survey done by the same person.
Carol Stradling stated, but at different times.
David Stimmel stated, at different times.
David Scott stated, so it really isn’t the people’s fault.
Attorney Altman stated, that is probably ultimately for you guys to determine.
Gary Barbour asked, how did we find all of a sudden here I guess that they’re in violation?
Director Weaver stated, I have known for sometime. Dave Anderson I believe caught it or Joe Roach caught it.
President Jerry Thompson asked, so can they speak or not? Where do we stand?
Carol Stradling stated, I would say that we have enough before us to realize that there are questions that we need to address to the property owner and probably the appropriate thing would be to get them in here to do that before we get anymore answers.
Director Weaver stated, I guess I’m just asking the board, I don’t, how can we help get this thing progressing to get it, do you want me to send a violation letter out and tell them that they are in violation and to get things brought into compliance. Do you want me to?
Gary Barbour asked, what would we do if someone else had a variance that they were in violation of?
Director Weaver stated, that is the normal procedure, but we have held up on this one because we really can’t correct the variance without them coming to terms with SFLECC first.
Gary Barbour stated, we need to do our normal thing and then whatever we do with it, we make it a direct that they have to settle that. Don’t you think?
David Scott stated, yes. How are they in violation with us?
Director Weaver stated, because of the 6 inches on the front and they didn’t have approval from the SFLECC for what they requested from us.
Attorney Altman stated, the basic thing was they came to us and said SFLECC had approved what they are doing and we find out that the surveys are different and that is true.
David Scott stated, I feel that we need to treat it as a normal violation.
David Stimmel stated, send them a violation letter.
Attorney Altman stated, and let SFLECC come in and give us the benefit of what they want to do at a hearing and everyone gets notice too. That would make everyone feel comfortable.
Carol Stradling stated, to me that is exactly what the fine ordinance was adapted for is they give us the building permit, they give us an application and then they build outside the ramifications of that permit, in a way that they would need more of a variance to them.
David Scott asked, how did the surveyor got out of whack?
Attorney Altman stated, that is a good question.
Director Weaver stated, I don’t know that the surveyor did, I don’t know that the fault was with the surveyor. I will have to supply you with the surveys.
??? stated, I think Mr. Roach can clear that up, that is not giving evidence, that is just clearing up.
??? stated, we weren’t asked any questions.
??? (man)stated, we were asked to be put on the agenda tonight. Are we on the agenda tonight or are we not?
Director Weaver stated, I explained to Joe that I would put it under business.
Attorney Altman stated, it is, you’ve got to understand we can’t to proceed and receive evidence we would potentially violate the other people’s rights.
Jan Conwell asked, what procedure do we need to follow to be put on the agenda and their notified that we are on the agenda and we are going to have a meeting. WE have had no luck at all in contacting these people or getting any response.
Gary Barbour stated, that is what we just discussed here, we are going to issue a letter stating that they are in violation and that they have to attend the next meeting or they are going to be fined.
Jan Conwell stated, so since November there has been no letter issued by the Area Plan Commission that they are in violation.
Director Weaver stated, the violation was not found in November.
Jan Conwell stated, it was found shortly afterwards.
Director Weaver stated, I wasn’t aware of it then. Like I said I have held up on this because they did have to come to terms with you before we can correct the variance.
Jan Conwell stated, I have a board of 15 volunteers who have spend numerous hours on this situation and they are not paid people, they are volunteers. Every month our Shorefront Committee addresses this situation and nothing happens, they don’t respond and we don’t get any action. We have talked to you, we have talked to Jerry and Diann and we are getting no where. I think as President I’m being remising continually asking my volunteers to address this situation when nothing is happening.
David Scott stated, well when we cite them in here with the violation, something will happen. This is the first that the board has known about it.
??? (man)asked, are you going to cite them for an occupancy violation also?
Jan Conwell stated, yea.
Director Weaver stated, that is not our doings, we do not issue occupancy permits.
Jan Conwell asked, who does?
Director Weaver stated, that is the building department.
Jan Conwell stated, they are aware that there is an occupancy problem.
Director Weaver stated, we have no control over that.
David Stimmel asked, should we issue a stop order on it?
Director Weaver stated, I believe one has been posted.
David Stimmel stated, it has been posted.
Director Weaver stated, that is where the building department is handling that.
President Jerry Thompson asked, how long ago was that issued?
Director Weaver stated, I can not answer that.
Gary Barbour stated, that all will come out in the meeting.
David Stimmel stated, I suggest that individual be here at the meeting.
President jerry Thompson asked, so when is the possibility as far as scheduling.
Director Weaver stated, we can get them on the September meeting. That would be the 16th.
Attorney Altman stated, I think what the board is suggesting that we bring it to a head and it would appropriately bring it to a head with notice to all people. Without further evidence tonight.
???(man) stated, we are not here to present evidence, we are here to show that we want you to act on this.
Attorney Altman stated, I hear you loud and clear because we have done it he cooperative way with your people and not with the board, but with you and Joe and it just has not happened. It needs to happen.
??? (man) stated, the problem is that Samoska has just proceeded in defiance, catch me.
??? (man) stated, that is evidence, you can’t give evidence.
Attorney Altman stated, the 16th of September.
President Jerry Thompson stated, okay thank you for coming.
David Stimmel stated, we are going to have the building inspector here, what about the surveyor being here.
Director Weaver stated, I don’t think the surveyor is wrong.
David Stimmel stated, I understand that, but he needs to be here.
Carol Stradling stated, he just has to explain it, I think if he writes it out, that he doesn’t have to be here.
David Stimmel stated, I just don’t want to get 45 minutes to an hour in the meeting and realize we don’t have the right person here.
Attorney Altman stated, it would not be a bad idea to have him here.
Carol Stradling stated, if he would like to be here fine, if not if he could just write a letter of explanation and then if that satisfies the questions, then that is done, if it doesn’t satisfy the questions, we will have more questions.
Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think that will satisfy the questions.
Director Weaver stated, I don’t’ either.
Carol Stradling asked, you don’t think it will.
Attorney Altman stated, no.
Carol Stradling stated, on the survey.
Attorney Altman stated, no, okay let's proceed to the second one.
Carol Stradling stated, oh there is more.
Director Weaver stated, yes we have a violation out on Range line road, Kevin Reynolds. It is a use violation. He has been doing a business.
Attorney Altman stated, an auto repair business.
Director Weaver stated, auto repair business and 2 or 3 years ago we cited him with a violation, he came to APC and requested a rezoning and was turned down. He continued business, so we have now filed a lawsuit against him and he is wanting to settle this lawsuit. I have discussed this with the APC to see what they would like to seek from him as a fine or what we are looking for, for a settlement of this lawsuit. They gave me their opinion and they also asked that I bring it to you guys for your opinion and that is what I’m doing. What I have noted here is that they would like to see a minimum of a restraining order from doing business on the property, and a fine covering our legal expenses which are estimated at least $1500, plus $500 a day if he would resume the business, or him personally resuming the business. I’m looking for input from you.
David Stimmel asked, where is this Diann?
Director Weaver stated, just North of Hanenkratt Grain.
Attorney Altman stated, on the East Side.
Carol Stradling stated, I can not respond, I don’t know how that was determined, it might be too much or it might be too little, it might just be right.
Director Weaver stated, we have followed this for two or three years and what it boiled down to when we finally filed the lawsuit we had an undercover deputy go out and actually an appoint to get his vehicle worked on. I’m assuming that is why he wants to settle, we pretty much have him, he is going to have a hard time getting out of this one. The business continued on, he cleaned it up for a short period of time after the rezoning was denied. I guess within 6 month he went back into business. I don’t know that the business actually stopped, but it appeared to have stopped, but within 6 months the business, you could tell the business was going on again. That has been, we have been following this for at least 2 years.
Carol Stradling asked, so what they want to know is if we think the fine is appropriate?
Director Weaver stated, to help us determine a settlement.
Carol Stradling stated, it is not a fine, it is a settlement.
Director Weaver stated, yes, I think APC felt that BZA handled situations like this more and had a little bit better feeling on how to handle this.
David Stimmel stated, Diann this is not, just a question. Why would we allow something like that to continue for that length of time?
Director Weaver stated, we had to get adequate evidence to prove that was what was going on.
David Stimmel stated, I have a hard time taking 2 years to do it though.
Director Weaver stated, it is kind of hard to determine that a business is going on. Just like you were questioning a house going into a garage, it is really hard to prove that. You can’t actually go inside. I couldn’t go out there to his business and walk in, he would have known right away who I was.
David Stimmel stated, I understand what you are saying, but if the intent was to get proof that the guy was doing it, I’m not trying to throw rocks at anyone, don’t get me wrong.
Director Weaver stated, let, I have left out one detail, John Raines did try to pursue this also and sent him letters and tried to get it cleaned up as well without any luck. It not like we just set idle and did nothing, we did try some different techniques to get it taken care of.
David Stimmel stated, okay.
Gary Barbour stated, I mean it was a mechanical shop, I mean just because you walked out there and he is working on a vehicle, he could say it was his vehicle and then what are you going to do.
David Stimmel stated, right, but it doesn’t take long to get that stuff done, if you really want to do it. It surely doesn’t take 3 or 6 months to get a deputy out there. Here is what upsets me about it, it is what these people are complaining about being here from SFLECC, they have been looking at this thing and here again, I’m not throwing rocks, it is the perception that people get that this government moves like a darn turtle and can’t get anything done. It is another delay, another delay.
Director Weaver stated, in that situation it was thrown into their lap to get it taken care of and that is where it has failed, now that it has failed Area Plan is taking over and Area Plan is going to step in. Area Plan up to this point has not been involved in this situation. It has been being handled between SFLECC and Building Department.
Attorney Altman stated, is there any thought on the fine of dollars.
David Stimmel stated, I think the fine is insignificant if the guy has been in business for that length of time. Paying the legal fees is the minimum and what is to say that he gets it settled and it takes this long to get it proved again, hell he could be in business for two years before we prove it again. That is where I’m coming from. He could be drawing social security before.
Attorney Altman stated, that is why we have the restraining order in place.
David Stimmel stated, you and I know that a restraining order is not something that you can do something with immediately, that takes an order by a judge.
Attorney Altman stated, I would hate to go before a Judge with decent evidence against you on a violation of a restraining order. You would have to have decent evidence of the violation.
Carol Stradling stated, that same evidence is the same evidence that we took two years to get where we are.
David Stimmel stated, that is where I’m coming from.
Attorney Altman stated, I guess I’m saying okay, what else do you want us to do.
Director Weaver stated, all though I do think that we know that there know working with him to where probably if we would have to investigate again, we would probably send someone in undercover right off the bat. That is my feeling on it.
Attorney Altman stated, we give these people the benefit of the doubt and 3 months later you.
David Stimmel asked, is $5000 too much.
Director Weaver stated, that is the figure I have had in my mind all along.
David Stimmel stated, to me that does not seem extraordinary for what I have heard transpired.
Carol Stradling stated, well if you are conducting business illegally does it make it an illegal business. How is that any different than selling drugs.
Attorney Altman stated, that is a lot different, consequences are different. It doesn’t mean that you don’t tag them.
David Stimmel stated, my problem is the circumstances, that is why that number comes to mind.
Attorney Altman stated, I understand I hear you.
Carol Stradling asked, what was their proposal?
Director Weaver stated, they haven’t got one they were waiting on us.
Carol Stradling stated, oh.
Attorney Altman stated, he wants to settle it, I don’t mind going to trail on this.
Carol Stradling stated, if they don’t settle and we go to court, what is the potential out come of going to court.
Attorney Altman stated, nothing, a fine of $500 a day and a restraining order.
Director Weaver stated, yes we have to be in court at 9:00 in the morning.
Carol Stradling stated, that $500 a day is that for 2 years.
David Stimmel stated, go Carol.
Attorney Altman stated, that is a day.
Carol Stradling asked, well per day for how long? Since when? Since the violation started?
Attorney Altman stated, since the violation has existed, the Judge won’t do that.
Carol Stradling stated, that is $30,000.
Attorney Altman asked, what is your question Diann?
Director Weaver stated, if we settle and ask for $5000, what is to guarantee us that he will pay us that $5000.
Attorney Altman stated, I will not dismiss it.
Director Weaver stated, okay, so that has to be paid before we will dismiss it.
Attorney Altman stated, you bet ya.
Director Weaver stated, I didn’t know.
Carol Stradling stated, we kind of had that same situation with that guy that was building on and we settled and he was going and he came and got his variance and didn’t do it and didn’t do it. It is good that we make sure we get the check before we drop it.
Attorney Altman stated, okay I hear ya. Is there anything else Diann?
David Stimmel asked, should we vote on this?
Carol Stradling stated, it isn’t for us to vote on.
Attorney Altman asked, is there anything else Diann?
Director Weaver stated, in your packets I gave you tonight are the minutes from the meeting where we discussed the rabbits. I gave that to you tonight so you could look those over before Tuesday’s meeting.
Carol Stradling stated, that meeting is Tuesday night at 7:30.
Director Weaver stated, yes.
Carol Stradling asked, Joe Bumbleburg will be with us, since Jerry will. Will you be in attendance Jerry?
Attorney Altman stated, yes.
President Jerry Thompson asked, okay anything else?
Director Weaver stated, I did have one more thing. You guys passed a variance last month for John & Mary Ann Watson. The 24’ x 50’ pole building that was going towards the canal. It is going 7’ from the front property line the water. I just want to let you guys know that I’m getting complaints.
David Scott stated, how come they weren’t here? I mean I think someone mentioned that.
Director Weaver stated, I was told that they entrusted the board to do what was proper and now they are disappointed. I thought you should know I thought it was interesting.
David Scott stated, if the neighbors don’t complain, how.
Director Weaver stated, I explained that to them, I did explain that to them. They had been through a variance process themselves and I think they are intimidated by the owner, no I know they are intimidated by the owner because I’m not going to go into detail.
David Stimmel stated, oh really.
Director Weaver stated, I think that is why they didn’t come to the meeting.
David Scott asked, what is the problem being so massive.
Director Weaver stated, being so close the water, it is only 7’, so.
President Jerry Thompson stated, this is small potatoes, but on the Rosebud thing why was his house not on that site.
Director Weaver stated, because his house is on a different property. He has separate acreage for the house.
The meeting adjourned.
Respectfully submitted,
Gary Barbour, Secretary
Diann Weaver, Director
White County Area Plan Commission