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The White County Board of Zoning Appeals met on Thursday, January 18, 2007 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.

Members attending were David Scott, Charles Mellon, Jerry Thompson and David Stimmel. Also attending were Attorney Jerry Altman and Director Diann Weaver.

Visitors attending were: Leonard Simala, Scott Ferdinand, and James Dixon. Also attending but not signed in were: Harry Peterson, Rick Long, Eric Stevenson, and Tim Willson.

The meeting was called to order by President David Stimmel and roll call was taken. Jerry Thompson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the December 21, 2006 meeting. Motion was seconded by David Stimmel and carried unanimously. Attorney Altman swore in all Board members and audience members.

President David Stimmel stated, we have a couple of things on the agenda before we actually get to the variances. First of all is…

Jerry Thompson stated, I think we have a new board member Charles Mellon and I think it needed to be recognized for the record. Explain a little bit.

President David Stimmel stated, I’m not actually sure who, Charlie is replacing Carol Stradling, right?

Director Weaver stated, yes.

President David Stimmel stated, appointed by.

Charles Mellon stated, the Mayor

Director Weaver stated, the Mayor.

President David Stimmel stated, the Mayor of Monticello.

Jerry Thompson stated, I just wanted that on the record.

Director Weaver stated, I might add that we are down a member. We still have one member that has not been appointed for the year. That is why there are only 4 members here tonight. It is normally a 5 member board.


Jerry Thompson asked, where does that member need to come from?

Director Weaver stated, that member will be appointed by the County Commissioners from the APC commission.

Jerry Thompson asked, and he can be from any part of the county?

Director Weaver stated, yes, must be a citizen member.

President David Stimmel stated, on to the reorganization.

Charles Mellon stated, I make a motion that we retain our present President.

Jerry Thompson stated, I will second it.

President David Stimmel stated, okay all in favor. Motion passed 4 to 0.

President David Stimmel stated, okay Vice President. Are you wanting to do the same officers is that what your motion was?

Charles Mellon stated, yes. The Vice President here. I make a motion that we make Jerry Vice President.

David Scott stated, I will second that.

President David Stimmel stated, okay all in favor? Motion carried 3 to 0.

President David Stimmel stated, now we need a secretary?

Charles Mellon stated, I nominate Dave.

Jerry Thompson stated, I will second that.

President David Stimmel stated, all in favor. Motion carried 3 to 0.

Jerry Thompson stated, I recommend that we retain Jerry Altman.

David Scott stated, I will second it.

President David Stimmel stated, all in favor. Motion carried 4 to 0.

****

#2579 Harry W. & Cecilia T. Peterson; The property is located on Lots 20 and 21 in Kozy Kove Subdivision and NW ¼ of the NW ¼ of Section 31-28-3 containing 0.052 of an acre, vacated roadway, located East of 300 E. at 3097 E. Stahl Road.

Violation: The deck was built too close to the north property line. Tabled from December 21, 2006.

President David Stimmel stated, we will address the fine at the end of the meeting.

Attorney Altman stated, his variance was denied.

President David Stimmel stated, that was on the garage.

Director Weaver stated, yes, and this is coming back to you because of the violation. It is only coming back to you for the violation.

President David Stimmel stated, so we are actually addressing the violation now instead of at the…

Director Weaver stated, right because he didn’t appeal the fine. We did nothing with the fine at the last meeting.

President David Stimmel stated, right we tabled it because we wanted to do more consideration.

Director Weaver stated, right.

President David Stimmel asked, you are sir?

Harry Peterson stated, I’m Harry Peterson.

Director Weaver stated, I might mention to you, you did have in your packet information from the original request, plus there is a new survey that has been received on January 9 that contradicts the original survey that you have so you need to make sure you look at the new survey.

Harry Peterson stated, the original survey showed that the deck was on the property line. After the second survey it shows that the northeast corner is 3.5’ off of the property line and the northwest corner of the deck is 4’1 off of the property line. The second survey shows some of the things we thought.

President David Stimmel stated, just out of curiosity Mr. Peterson did Mr. Milligan have any explanation how that would have happened.

Harry Peterson stated, it was the third time I have had him out there. I kept measuring and it didn’t make sense. So I finally got him to come out while I was there and walk it and do it.

President David Stimmel stated, Dave and I stopped out there just for Jerry and Charlie’s information. Dave and I stopped out there one day several weeks ago and looked at it again and we looked at the property lines and it was obvious that something was going on. He was very helpful when we did that. Thank you.

David Scott stated, so actually it is just the east end of the deck is half a foot to close to the property line.

Harry Peterson stated, yes sir.

David Scott stated, Diann I see down here he is requesting a 1’ variance to cover that 6”. I don’t think, I mean we want them to be right. I mean I think he made an attempt to put it where it was suppose to be.

Jerry Thompson stated, that is not near the issue.

David Scott stated, it isn’t right on the line like it was.

Jerry Thompson stated, right.

President David Stimmel stated, so just to set the record straight what we are talking about now is we are talking about two things. First thing is that the survey was in correct that we originally looked at. We decided to table any action on the fine until we had better information. Since then we have discovered that the survey was incorrect. Also Mr. Peterson has filed for a variance to correct and actually bring the property into compliance. So we are dealing with two things on the meeting notice schedule. The reason I’m saying that is in case someone in the audience who wants to speak either for or against the variance or the fine. Now would be a good time to raise your hand and say your peace. What is the board’s wishes?

David Scott stated, it seems, I don’t think we should fine him for this, I’m not sure things are in the right order. If we say this is okay at the top and down at the bottom does he still need the variance.

President David Stimmel stated, he still needs the variance for the 6 inches that it is off or a 1’ whatever. He is asking for a 1’ so that is going to cover and bring it into compliance.

David Scott stated, okay, I’m just going to make a motion that no fine be assessed at this time.

President David Stimmel stated, I will second that. All in favor? Motion passed 4 to 0.

David Scott stated, I have a question. That road out front is it an easement or a road or what is it?

Director Weaver stated, I did not research it, but I believe it is a planted road.

President David Stimmel asked, Mr. Peterson did you find out more about that road?

Harry Peterson stated, there was nothing saying it was a road or is not a road. If you look at the survey the far Northeast corner along that roadway, it ends at that point. It is private property to the East. It is really a glorified driveway. That is the best description.

David Scott stated, I guess my reason for asking is if it is a road do we typically allow decks to be 4’ off the road.

Director Weaver stated, they can be 4’ off of a property line.

David Scott stated, off the property line.

Director Weaver stated, normally the road doesn’t go right to the property line, normally there is green space in between. I don’t think that is the case in this situation.

David Scott stated, normally the road right of way and then you have to be back 32’.

Director Weaver stated, that is for a roofed that is if it is roofed.

David Scott stated, that is if it is roofed, even on a county right of way you could actually build 4’ off of the county right of way with a deck or something.

Director Weaver stated, with a deck, something unroofed.

****

#2586 Daniel M. & Judy A. Kuber; The property is located on Lot 42 and 43 in Elmer Girtz’s Camp, the property is located North of Lowe’s Bridge at 4909 E. Elmer Girtz Drive.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting a 5’ West side setback variance a 20’ front setback variance to build a room addition on to the home.

President David Stimmel asked, is there someone here representing the Kuber’s?

Scott Ferdinand stated, I’m Scott Ferdinand I designed the addition.

President David Stimmel asked, have we any mail or anything?

Director Weaver stated, not to my knowledge we have had no calls.

Jerry Thompson stated, excuse me is he the only representative of the Kuber’s?

Scott Ferdinand stated, the builders here to, but yes. We are here on there behalf.

Attorney Altman stated, the authorization we have in the file is for Rick Long. Is Rick Long here?

Rick Long stated, yes. Scott can represent this.

President David Stimmel stated, okay. Do you have anything else you want to add to this variance?

Scott Ferdinand stated, no.

President David Stimmel asked, any fan mail?

Director Weaver stated, no.

President David Stimmel stated, give us a minute to look this over.

Director Weaver stated, when I went out to this property there were flags where the lot corners had been marked. In your pictures you will notice that I circled those because this lot is at an angle. I thought this might help you where the lot lines are.

President David Stimmel asked, Diann do you know who owns the lot to the West?

Scott Ferdinand stated, I do not.

President David Stimmel asked, lot 41?

Scott Ferdinand stated, I do not.

Director Weaver stated, I do not know, there is quite a bit of room between.

President David Stimmel stated, you are saying the lot 41 is an empty lot.

Scott Ferdinand stated, at least half of it is.

President David Stimmel stated, half of it is.

Director Weaver stated, yes, there is quite a distance in between, actually if you look at the pictures that has the 6 pictures on it the picture on the right column and the building to the right is their house and the building to the left if the house to the West.

David Scott stated, the people who own lot 41 were they notified?

Director Weaver stated, yes, should have been.

President David Stimmel asked, any questions?

Rick Long stated, I might add the existing property now, the house, it is actually 10’. They are applying for how many feet on the front.

Scott Ferdinand stated, 20’, the existing porch on there already is within 4’ of that 20’ already. It is an older place, actually it is going 4’ existing right now.

President David Stimmel stated, I’m not picking on you guys, but I want to let you know that one of the things in order for us to grant a variance you have to show a hardship. One of the things that we are going to try to do is help you understand it is you have to show that hardship when you come in. That can be a lot of things I’m not trying to narrow that focus, you need to show it. That is the one thing I would ask about this, is what is the hardship that you are going to incur if you have to stay within the zoning laws. In other words not get the 5’ setback and the 20’ setback.

Rick Long stated, sure, I think the only thing they are wanting to do is improve the property. It is pretty run down. They are just wanting to try and better the surroundings.

President David Stimmel stated, okay.

Rick Long stated, that is all I know.

Scott Ferdinand stated, they are just adding bedrooms. It is just two bedrooms and they want it to be 3.

President David Stimmel stated, okay. Charlie do you have any questions?

Charles Mellon stated, no.

Scott Ferdinand stated, I have a copy of the design if they want to see it.

President David Stimmel stated, I don’t have to, but maybe someone else does.

David Scott stated, the only thing I might say, that under our new ordinance the one they haven’t adopted yet we are going to allow some smaller lots to be 6’ off of the property lines.

Director Weaver stated, it has been a long time. I know it is going to be at a sliding scale. I don’t remember what we decided on.

President David Stimmel asked, Jerry?

Jerry Thompson stated, I’m sorry read again, I’m still at the first step.

Attorney Altman proceeded to read the letter to the board on who is representing them.

Jerry Thompson stated, not to be contrary, but I know Rick Long, but we’ve got Kuber’s from Chicago who is not here. I want to make sure I want this all to get back home. Your relationship to this again?

Scott Ferdinand stated, I designed the room addition, I’m the designer.

Jerry Thompson stated, okay, other than that no.

David Scott stated, I seen something else here. The 6’ and the 5’ on this site here is to the foundation or to the overhang.

Scott Ferdinand stated, the 5’ is the foundation.

David Scott stated, so there is a 1’ overhang.

Scott Ferdinand stated, yes 1’ in that area.

Director Weaver stated, the variance is for a 2’ overhang and the variance does cover that.

President David Stimmel asked, any other questions?

Attorney Altman asked, is the home one story?

Scott Ferdinand stated, two story.

Attorney Altman asked, this is not on the sewer system now?

Scott Ferdinand stated, it is on the sewer system.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District

2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.

3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit. The home is on the sewer sytem.

4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.

5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.

6. That the request is for a 5’ West side setback variance a 20’ front setback variance to build a room addition on to the home on Lots Number Forty-two (42) and Forty-three (43) in Elmer Girtz’s Camp, in Liberty Township, White County, Indiana.

COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located North of Lowe’s Bridge at 4909 E. Girtz Drive.


7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.


The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 1 negative.

Attorney Altman stated, you need to get your building permit before you proceed.

****

#2587 Harry W. & Cecilia T. Peterson; The property is located on Lot 20 and 21 in Kozy Kove Subdivision and NW ¼ of the NW ¼ of Section 31-28-3 containing 0.052 of an acre, vacated roadway, located East of 300 E. at 3097 E. Stahl Road.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting a 1’ front setback variance to bring an existing unroofed deck into compliance.

President David Stimmel asked, any questions, any discussions?

Jerry Thompson asked, anything from anyone?

Director Weaver stated, no, I haven’t received anything. I do have some new pictures that are with your information.

Jerry Thompson stated, I don’t have anything.

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.

2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.

3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.

4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.

5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.

6. That the request is for a 1’ front setback variance to bring an existing unroofed deck into compliance on Lots Number Twenty (20) and Twenty-one (21) in Kozy Kove, a Subdivision of the North half of the Northwest Quarter of the Northwest Quarter of Section thirty-one (31), Township Twenty-eight (28) North, Range Three (3) West, as shown by the plat of said Subdivision on file and record in the Office of the Recorder of White County, Indiana.

Also,

That part of the Northwest Quarter of the Northwest Quarter of Section 31, Township 28 North, Range 3 West in Monon Township, White County, Indiana described by: Commencing at the Northwest corner of the above said Section 31; thence South along the section line 476.87 feet; thence East 480.00 feet to the Southwest corner of Lot 21 in Kozy-Kove Subdivision and the point of beginning; thence East 114.00 feet; thence South 20.00 feet thence West 114.00 feet; thence North 20.00 feet to the point of beginning, containing 0.052 of an acre, more or less. The above described tract of land being a part of the road as vacated by order of the White County Commissioners on February 2, 1982.

COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located East of 300 E at 3097 E. Stahl Road.

7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.


The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 4 affirmative and 0 negative.

****

#2588 Patrick G. Patricia A. Donnelly; The property is located on Lot 6 in Woodlawn Park Addition, the property is located North of Lake Road 76 and West of East Shafer Drive at 6960 N. Chamber Court.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting a 6’ front setback variance, a 3’ north side setback variance and a 4’ south side setback variance to build an addition and to bring the existing home into compliance.

President David Stimmel asked, you are sir?

Eric Stevenson stated, Eric Stevenson, builder.

President David Stimmel asked, do we have a letter giving him permission?

Director Weaver stated, yes, look at the application I believe he told me at that time.

Attorney Altman stated, proceeded to read the letter from the owners. SEE FILE.

President David Stimmel asked, is there anything that you want to add to this Eric?

Eric Stevenson stated, no.

President David Stimmel asked, anyone in the audience want to speak either for or against the variance? If I look at the drawing Diann, I’m just trying to worrying myself on the front setback variance would be towards the lake, so 6’ there 3’ North side would be there at 10’ and a 4’ south and that is where they are proposing the addition.

Director Weaver stated, what we are doing, the reason the numbers don’t add up is because we’ve allowed for a 1’ overhang on both sides.

President David Stimmel stated, this is a 50’ lot yes. Jerry anything?

Jerry Thompson asked, any response from anyone?

Director Weaver stated, no.

President David Stimmel asked, Dave?

David Scott stated, I would just like to ask Diann the people who live on either side of this variance are they sent notification of this.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

David Scott stated, so they don’t have to see the sign they are sent a letter so they have the opportunity to come in.

Director Weaver stated, any adjacent property owner is sent a letter and out of courtesy we are not required by law we send a copy of the survey on the back of the letter.

President David Stimmel asked, Charlie?

Charles Mellon stated, no.

President David Stimmel stated, Eric the proposed addition if we were to look at the plans of that thing is there somehow this could fit in the existing set backs by the 3 or 4’ be longer or to make it set with in those setbacks.

Eric Stevenson stated, anything is possible. The reason they are doing it, they are wanting a furnished room, a master bedroom with a bath and a furnace room on the back with a walk-in closet. In order to get the furnace room and the bathroom stacked that is why it has to be that far from the house, but to say you couldn’t I think there is a tree in the way, if you went to far, it has been a day or two since I looked at it.

Attorney Altman stated, you want to look at the pictures so you can show why there is a hardship.

Eric Stevenson stated, they originally were going with the width of the cottage, the front wall was lining up and then there is a wall inside that is lining up with too. It might have been the grinder pump or plumbing or something coming out with an issue.

President David Stimmel asked, what about the roof line itself? I see that it might be an issue or am I imaging it?

Eric Stevenson stated, it is just going to come in and create two valleys and the ridge on the new addition is going to be a touch higher that the existing addition. It will be up a little with a triangle from the North side. Two valleys coming along the South side.

President David Stimmel asked, anymore questions? Ready to vote?

Without further questions the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District

2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.

3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit. The home is on the sewer system.

4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.

5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.

6. That the request is for a 6’ front setback variance, a 3’ north side setback variance and a 4’ south side setback variance to build an addition and to bring the existing home into compliance on Lot number Six (6) in tract of land known and so recorded as Woodlawn Park, Liberty Township, White County, Indiana.

COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located North of Lake Road 76 and West of East Shafer Drive at 6960 N. Chamber Court.


7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.


The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 1 negative.

Attorney Altman stated, you need to get your building permit before you proceed.

****

#2589 Timothy E. & Catherine Feely Willson; The property is located on Lot 42 in Gingrich Addition, the property is located South of Monticello at 5339 S. Gingrich Court.

Violation: None

Request: They are requesting a 25’ front setback variance, a 6’ North setback variance and a 9’ south side setback variance to convert an existing storage area into living quarters and to bring the existing home into compliance.

President David Stimmel asked, you are sir?

Timothy Willson stated, Timothy Willson.

President David Stimmel asked, is there anything that you want to add to what I just read?

Timothy Willson stated, no sir.

Director Weaver stated, I want to point out to the board that the area that we are referring to as storage area is going to be converted is the area in the pictures that has the garage doors on it. On the survey that shows deck.

Attorney Altman stated, so the middle picture on the left side shows the garage door. Of course the survey shows the wood deck on the property.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

Attorney Altman asked, was that a garage at one time?

Timothy Willson stated, I bought the property last year and they had used it as a garage I think. I changed it around. I put grass in front of it and put a pavers brick thing down to the water. In my opinion the garage was ridiculous.

President David Stimmel asked, Diann is there anything you want to add? I see a lot of paper work here. Now I’ve got it. Jerry anything?

Jerry Thompson stated, I have nothing at this time, still looking.

President David Stimmel asked, Dave?

David Scott asked, does the same owner own lot 43?

President David Stimmel asked, are these lots tied together?

Timothy Willson stated, there one lot that is complete empty on the side of me and that owner owns the lot above me. His name is Rick Raderstorf. Rick and I are pretty good friends. The other side of me where there is a house I also talked to them before I even approached this and everyone was good with it.

Jerry Thompson asked, you got nothing?

Director Weaver stated, no.

David Scott asked, the little shed that sets over here is that your shed?

Timothy Willson stated, no that is the neighbors shed.

David Scott asked, so he owns that? So actually you are just bringing this into compliance and turning this into living quarters?

Timothy Willson stated, yes, I’m not encroaching.

President David Stimmel asked, you are not going vertical with it, you are leaving it like it is?

Timothy Willson stated, I’m going to enclose the deck also, but I’m just, I’m not going over any of the property lines that are there right now.

President David Stimmel stated, okay. Charlie anything?

Charles Mellon stated, no.

President David Stimmel asked, any other questions?

Attorney Altman stated, I don’t see a grinder.

Timothy Willson stated, it is on the empty lot. (Proceeding to show Jerry where it is on the survey.)

Without further discussion the board voted.

The Board finds the following:

1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District

2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.

3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit. There is no increase in the home’s footprint.

4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.

5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.

6. That the request is for a 25’ front setback variance, a 6’ North setback variance and a 9’ south side setback variance to convert an existing storage area into living quarters and to bring the existing home into compliance on Lot Number Forty-two (42) in the Gingrich Addition, described as follows: A small tract of land out of the Northwest Quarter of Section 27, Township 26 North, Range 3 West, in White County, Indiana, beginning at a point which is 467 feet North, and 1416 feet East to an iron stake, and running thence South 18 degrees east 90 feet from the Southeast corner of the Southwest Quarter of the Northeast Quarter of Section 28, Township 26 North, Range 3 West, in said White County, Indiana, and running thence North 12 ½ degrees East, 417 feet; this pint being the Northwest corner of the tract here by described; thence South 10 degrees West 45 ½ feet thence East 105 feet; thence North 17 degrees East 47 feet thence West 100 feet to the place of beginning.

COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located south of Monticello at 5339 S. Gingrich Court.

7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.


The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 4 affirmative and 0 negative.

Attorney Altman stated, you need to get your building permit before you proceed.

****

President David Stimmel stated, Diann do you have some things? I wanted to ask the gentleman in the back if he had any questions.

Director Weaver stated, he is Mr. Dixon.

President David Stimmel stated, are you here for or against it?

Director Weaver stated, he is Mr. Dixon.

President David Stimmel stated, oh, I’m really getting messed up. I apologize.

Jerry Thompson stated, come on up.

Attorney Altman stated, tell us about Mr. Dixon’s situation.

Director Weaver stated, we had received a complaint that there was a shed built to close to the property line. Actually the complaint originally came into the building department. Dave took the pictures that are in the packet. He gave us the pictures and we went ahead and sent out a letter to Mr. Dixon. Dave Anderson also sent a letter to Mr. Dixon. He came in, our letter was sent out November 17, 2006 and Mr. Dixon came in on November 27 and applied for a building permit and picked that permit up on December 11, 2006. He then appealed his fine on December 18. I went out to the property today and there are pictures. It looks like he is in the process of taking the shed apart so he can relocate that shed.

Attorney Altman stated, the shed in questions is the photos I have in my hand.

Director Weaver stated, yes and those are the copies of the photos that Dave Anderson took.

As a part of his building permit he stated that he is going to move the shed to where it is 14’ off f the property line and 40’ from the rear. Will that put you on the hill?

James Dixon stated, basically, yes.

Director Weaver stated, that is what I thought.

President David Stimmel asked, Jerry anything?

Jerry Thompson stated, no.

President David Stimmel asked, Dave anything?

David Scott asked, will he be able to meet the setbacks if he moves it?

Director Weaver stated, if he relocates it as he presented to me.

David Scott asked, is that it?

Director Weaver stated, he actually did two drawings. Is that the one that shows right on the side property line, I believe it is? If you go back another page on the next page you will see the one we approved. This is the second drawing.

Attorney Altman asked, this is how you intend to build it?

James Dixon stated, correct. Can I speak on the appeal? It kind of appears that I got this and then field the appeal. When actually I got the notice like she said, but I actually got the notice from Dave. It said contact me about the shed that you are in violation. I contacted him and he said he would fax me over the paper work that I would need to start the process of doing the permit. He faxed me the document and I asked him okay can I fax this back over to get the process started and he said no you have to come in. I drove all the way down here on August 18 and you were closed because of the time difference. I live in Chicago so it is hard for me to get back up here. I finally came back here again I would say it was November 27 and I applied for everything. At the time I applied for everything she said well you have a fine. I had no idea that I had a fine. Every letter I went home and this stuff was in the mail box. I told them I would work to take car of it. That is why I’m here appealing the fine.

David Scott stated, Dave got a call on this and he went out. Did you go out also?

Director Weaver stated, only today. I didn’t see a necessity for me to go out there.

David Scott asked, did he come in and get a permit before he starting working on the shed?

Director Weaver stated, the shed was already built.

James Dixon stated, it was already built, I talked to my friend that bought a house up here and said I didn’t need a permit, but he doesn’t stay in White county that I found out. I did talk to my neighbor before I built it and I’m looking at putting it here or here and he didn’t have an objection at the time so I started building it. He didn’t mention I needed a permit, I didn’t know I had to have a permit.

Attorney Altman asked, does your friend live here?

James Dixon stated, he is in a different county, the one across the lake.

Director Weaver asked, he is in Carroll County? Different rules and regulations.

David Scott stated, I’m going to make a motion that we reduce the fine to $75 basically for covering the expense of the office running out there and checking on it.

Jerry Thompson asked, you are in the process of taking care of it?

James Dixon stated, yes.

Jerry Thompson stated, I will second it.

President David Stimmel asked, you do have a permit?

Director Weaver stated, yes to move to the new location.

President David Stimmel asked, any discussion? All in favor? Motion carried 4 to 0.

James Dixon stated, thank you. Where do I make the payment?

Director Weaver stated, my office.

James Dixon asked, can I pay you now, it is hard to get down here?

Director Weaver stated, if I can mail you a receipt.

James Dixon stated, that is fine.

Attorney Altman asked, what about Mr. Dye?

Director Weaver stated, okay Mr. Dye. His wife and his mother in law were in the office on January 12. They came in and picked up both of the building permits for the remaining homes and also paid the $200 fine. I went out to the property yesterday and looked at it and the only thing that I see that I still needed is the one mobile home is going to need to be skirted and that is something that works with their building permit and Dave will make sure that is completed. They are starting the detached garage and they did bring in a copy of the signed contract for the one mobile home and I think everything is complete.

President David Stimmel stated, I think we got his attention.

David Scott asked, so he did do everything we asked?

Director Weaver stated, I believe so.

President David Stimmel asked, is there anymore business?

Director Weaver stated, do you want to talk about the hardship?

President David Stimmel stated, yes. Everybody votes their own conscience. I’m getting to be more hard nose the more I hear and more I reading about the guy needs to have a hardship to actually needs a hardship to get one. Jerry and I and Dave have talked and just because we kind of been in the area. You can’t do it and I don’t want to keep that officer around anymore. We appreciate it.

Just the fact that Jerry has explained and I have done some reading and I’ve got on the internet and looked around a lot of places when they start a Board of Zoning Appeals they absolutely request the first thing they ask the applicant is what hardship are you going to suffer if we don’t approve this. What hardship. You are really supposed to show a hardship before you are granted a variance. So I’m not trying to sway anyone to my way of thinking but I think I’ve become a little less personally especially on the lake property. If I feel they have room to go north and south and they want to go west and east I’m probably going to vote not. I just really am. This guy and the last guy, if that thing happens to be going I mean he had a 1.1 setback and here we go again.

David Scott stated, yes, but that was already existing.

President David Stimmel stated, exactly, I’m not going to try and redo what other people have done.

David Scott stated, also I keep going back to the new ordinance. They made a revision in there for the smaller lots, they are going to allow 6’ setbacks and as the lots get bigger the setbacks get bigger.

Director Weaver stated, yes.

President David Stimmel stated, but in a situation like that it would make me more to stick to the rules.

Director Weaver stated, oh right, I think that is why we did that.

President David Stimmel stated, this is to reduce the variance. The board wants to say meet it. The other thing Diann we’ve talked about something everyone understands when they come and get something. One of these is what you hand out. The two pages or…

Director Weaver stated, this is the one we hand out.

President David Stimmel stated, what Diann has put together or what we have talked to her about was the concept of making sure that somebody coming in seeking a variance understood that they have to show a hardship and they may have second thoughts well I want 2’ or gees if I have to show a hardship what is the hardship. Jerry can explain better what they might be.

Attorney Altman stated, they can be a topographic a slop, hill, a very wet spot, shape of the lot, you know we look and see squares, rectangles or if you see one of these odd ones where it really, they created or its been there for a long time and you are trying to figure out how to put a home on it. That can be a hardship as long as they didn’t create it. Much of it has to do with geography if you will. It’s supposed to be something that is not their fault, something that really limits what everybody else can do around them.

Director Weaver asked, if they have a mature tree or something can that count as a hardship?

Attorney Altman stated, yes possible.

President David Stimmel stated, yes it could.

Director Weaver stated, well I thought so.

Attorney Altman stated, if they don’t eliminate the health problem of over loading the green area.

Director Weaver stated, let me ask this, if they are going to come to you and request a variance because of something like that, a tree or something, shouldn’t the survey reflect that?

Attorney Altman stated, sure should.

President David Stimmel stated, I would agree.

Attorney Altman stated, in other words, it ought to describe it. I would require them to have a couple of pictures of it. It shows the relationship to everything else in that immediate community.

Charles Mellon asked, you are talking about the hardship of the applicant?

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Charles Mellon stated, that was a case here awhile back, I shouldn’t bring it up, but that woman from up North 90 miles. I was in here for the regular Area Plan meeting and she wasn’t getting along down here and she wanted to more that extra little trail on the high ground ridge the way I understood it. She may not have said it at the meeting, but the way I understood it, she called me twice her father in law was suppose to be dying of cancer. He didn’t want to go to a nursing home and she just wanted to move that up on her property so she could take care of her father in law.

Attorney Altman stated, we have a specific statue or in our ordinance that allows that sort of thing on there Charlie.

Director Weaver stated, for a mobile home.

Attorney Altman stated, for a limited amount of time. So that they don’t need a variance to do it, but there are some restrictions. That might have been what because we intend that to be temporary.

Charles Mellon stated, things would probably would have had to be put on that if it weren’t in the rules. I mean other things.

Attorney Altman stated, I guess what I’m saying here is they have to figure out what the ordinance says and how they comply with it.

President David Stimmel stated, the reason we started this conversation was trying to help ourselves understand and Diann and Jerry to be sure when someone comes in and applies for a variance they understood that the burden of proof for that hardship was on them. They need to come to the meeting if they want a variance prepared to say if I don’t get this thing I’ve got a real problem because this interior wall comes out and this and in other words another item I don’t want to cut down that 100 year old tree. I’ve got a sick father in law whatever it is they need to be able to demonstrate that for the board to say this is a hardship. I need this variance for a reason not because I want another 2’ on my house.

David Scott stated, I think in the old section of, well most of the lots are 60’ x 120’. Just in my own person experience I had to get a variance because I moved my in-laws in next to the property and I’ve got two houses there. There is adequate room there. When you go to some of these old towns are draw up 60’ is not much. That could be justification of hardship. The lots were drawn up 100 years ago and the houses are bigger now.

President David Stimmel stated, I agree with that Dave only to the extend and we have talked about that and you take a guy who wants to build a solarium to his house and it looks completely out of character with the rest of the houses right down that street or something like that. In other words if it is completely out of character it begins to go against it. Yeah there is 60’ lot and if it looks like out of place or the character of the neighborhood for what other reason. The only reason I brought it up just to kind of let you guys know what we have been talking about. I’m not trying to sway anyone’s votes, but Diann added these two things. Where you looking for impute from us?

Director Weaver stated, yes I wanted you to look it over. #6 is the one.

Attorney Altman stated, I would tell you quite frankly if I were going to go to court on most of the variance you granted tonight and someone object to the hardship I would be hard press to define what you decided tonight in court. That is if someone took it up on an appeal a neighbor or what have you. I realize we don’t have that tonight.

President David Stimmel stated, we know we are going to have these coming up, I mean we really do. The thing that concerns me is the new board member Charles and then the new one yet to be identified trying to give I hope some guidance I think what the broad parameters for doing this. Why do we or why don’t we grant one. I’m sorry Diann I keep going away from it.

Director Weaver stated, that is okay I have come across something to read. Variances allowed in order for the BZA to consider an application for a variance at least one of the following two conditions must exist. A. the application for the variance must a ledge by reason of the exceptional narrowness or shallowness or the shape of a specific piece of property or by reason of exceptional topic graphic condition or other extraordinary situation of the land or building or of use of the property immediately adjoining the property in question. The literal enforcement of this ordinance would cause undo or unnecessary hardship or would involve practical difficulty as applied to the property for which the variance is sought. Provided however, that the board shall not grant a variance on a lot if the owner or the members of his immediate family own adjacent land which could without undo hardship be included as a part of the lot or B. The application for the variance a ledge for other reasons other than set forth in the conditions number 1 the strict application of the terms of this ordinance would cause undo or unnecessary hardship or would involve practical difficulties as applied to the property for which the variance is sought and a request is made to regulations or requirements so the spirit of the ordinance can be observed public safety, secured and substantial justice.

Attorney Altman stated, they have the burden of proof to prove that.

President David Stimmel stated, what that says to me and I will just give you my interpretation is that if there is a whole 6 blocks of Monon 60’ lots you are going to have a hard time someone coming to me and say because my lot is 60’ that is an unusual set of circumstances, no it is not. Everybody else’s lots are 60’ that is the way I’m interpreting it.

Attorney Altman stated, that would be truce, except that if every body else has if they are not loading that lot up so it they can’t excuse me what I mean is if the improvements that they are putting on there is similar to everybody else did on that 60’.

President David Stimmel stated, so in other words the precedent would had to have been set by everyone else who had already gotten a variance.

Attorney Altman stated, or someone else who did way before on those lots before everything else. You are basically saying this is the way it is.

President David Stimmel stated, everyone else has built 2’ so why can’t I.

Attorney Altman stated, they would have the safety thing because they are close to the fire station, they are close to the police station. They’ve got septic, water, that lets that sort of thing happen, but by the same token it would, as an example have these lots and no one loaded them up and someone then comes in and wants to load them up just because they are 60’ lots isn’t a justification. The way I look at it.

David Scott stated, see the other night, I know we don’t have any right somebody that a lot of that needs to be in the old parts of town there is nothing we can do. What I’m afraid of we are not going to have people improving their property and doing these things and improving their neighborhoods if come in here and say we are not allowing any variances. Just the other night when the Country club came up here to subdivide those lots, the lots are so narrow that I guarantee that someone is going to be in here for a variance. What right do we have to set on the board and say look these lots need to be wide enough so someone can put a decent house on there, but so we could have handed it off by saying look these lots need to be so big, or we are not going to let them be a subdivision.

President David Stimmel stated, Dave shouldn’t that be addressed in the zoning law itself. Isn’t that what the new laws address those issues.

Director Weaver stated, the only thing it requires is a minimum square footage and a minimum width. The problem with these were the depth.

David Scott stated, I just think anything new should be big enough to work with.

President David Stimmel stated, sure. Dave I’m just being the devils advocate here that is the fact that I buy a lot and I know it is 90’ x 120’ and I have any sense that there is a zoning law in White county or where ever I’m living and I know that there are certain setbacks, I buy it with those covenants in mind. I mean this is the restrictions on my..

David Scott stated, and the difference is you are involved with what is going on here and I am to, but 6 years ago I would have went out to the Country Club if I was looking for a lot and I would have bought the lot and I’m going to put me a 2,000 sq. ft. house out here and then I bought the lot and they say you can’t do that. It is too late.

President David Stimmel stated, you right like Mr. Dixon and when ever I hear that I think by the grace of god I’m telling you if my neighbor told me that I would say that is good as gold.

Charles Mellon stated, there are a lot of rules.

President David Stimmel stated, I guess that..

David Scott stated, I like the way they did the setbacks, it would probably be a pain in the butt it is going to make more…

Charles Mellon stated, no one is going to know this.

President David Stimmel asked, what do you want to do with this Diann?

Director Weaver stated, I just wanted to see, wanted to know if the way I have worded #6 if that is what you want. Do you want a statement or do you just want them to be prepared to make a statement at the hearing?

President David Stimmel stated, I would bold and underline that.

Director Weaver stated, do you want a statement at the time they make application?

President David Stimmel stated, yes.

Director Weaver stated, that is what I will start telling people.

President David Stimmel stated, I like what Diann has done and I think it is going to help a lot.

Attorney Altman stated, I think what is going to help is no votes. Quite frankly you are going to have to deny.

President David Stimmel stated, one of the things that will help me and maybe you guys, I have noticed that so many of the things that we get the surveys, and I don’t know if this is going to cost more from Gross than from Milligan’s, I would like to see what is on these lots next to them.

Director Weaver stated, they are supposed to be on there I have read that it is to be on there.

President David Stimmel stated, I have seen so many of them and tonight there was a couple of them what in the hell is the other building.

Charles Mellon stated, Milligan has been there long enough to be up to date.

President David Stimmel stated, it concerns me because every time we want to know who owns that next property and where the buildings are that thing and we have to know that to make an intelligent decision.

Director Weaver stated, Mr. Gross’s survey had the names on those next lots.

Jerry Thompson stated, you can put it back on the girl’s lap, if there is a question it has be detailed.

Director Weaver stated, it is going to have to come down to we won’t accept them if it doesn’t. Other wise we are going to be setting there begging.

Attorney Altman stated, there again it comes back to the board saying this is the way it is.

President David Stimmel asked, do we need to tell Milligan this?

Jerry Thompson stated, that was what I was going to say, do we need to notify the surveyors in the area and from this point we want more detailed information.

Several are talking at once.

President David Stimmel stated, give a reason we are asked to give variances on lake lots where they want side setbacks, and unless we know where those other buildings set in relationship to this we are shooting in the dark.

Jerry Thompson stated, we are.

Attorney Altman stated, while Diann can get on the internet and give us an idea of what that says it is really important and on her reports you will see adjoining lots you will see what appears to be the home next door.

Jerry Thompson stated, we are still on the record.

Attorney Altman stated, yes.

Jerry Thompson asked, how many people are we talking here as far as surveyors to contact?

Director Weaver stated, the area surveyors. There are only 4 right here locally.

President David Stimmel stated, I have contact someone from Rennselaer and Dennis Sterrett has a list he recommends and I would make sure those guys are on that list.

Director Weaver stated, okay.

Jerry Thompson stated, I don’t know maybe I’m to quick, but I make a motion that we inform them we want a more specific survey if it is in relationship to zoning.

Attorney Altman stated, you can say it is a courtesy to you, but if you don’t do it we are going to deny the variance.

President David Stimmel stated, would it be appropriate to put together a draft in the next week or something like that and email it to everyone and call Charlie.

Director Weaver stated, that is what I will do and call Charlie and have him come in.

Charles Mellon stated, since Jerry mentioned the girls have you had any luck yet.

Director Weaver stated, I hope to interview next week.

President David Stimmel asked, are we done with everything else?

Jerry Thompson stated, yes.

The meeting adjourned.

Respectfully submitted,

David Scott, Secretary

Diann Weaver, Director

White County Area Plan Commission