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The White County Board of Zoning Appeals met on Thursday, February 21, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.
Members attending were: Gerald Cartmell, David Scott, Charles Mellon, Jerry Thompson and David Stimmel. Also attending were Attorney Bob Little (Special Counsel) and Director Diann Weaver.
Visitors attending were: Linda Eckert, Lindsay Thompson, John Cottrell, Butch Moody, Debbie Moody, Jody Owens, Joe Bumbleburg, Constance Bumbleburg, Philip Gutwein, J. Castleberry, D. Armbruster, Rob Bult, Rodney Scott, Ed Wheeldon, Dee Ann Wheeldon, ?? Wheeldon, Don Koleszar, ???, Thomas Roth, Casey Crabb, ???, Jenny Mei, Charles R. McCarty, Jim Thayer, Chris VanHorn, Jenny VanHorn, Chris Thayer, Heidi Anderson, Bob Wrede and Ben Woodhouse (Deputy).
The meeting was called to order by President David Stimmel and roll call was taken. Jerry Thompson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the December 27, 2007 meeting and Charlie Mellon seconded it. Charlie Mellon made the motion to approve the January 17, 2008 minutes and Jerry Thompson seconded it. They were approved and carried unanimously. Attorney Little swore in all Board members and audience members.
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#2696 Fat Ngai Siu ‘etal’; The property is located on 2.23 Acres Out NW cor NW 28-27-3, in the City of Monticello at 1516 N. Main Street.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting an 18’ front setback variance to add an open vault and to bring the existing restaurant into compliance.
President Stimmel asked, is there anyone here representing that variance?
Bob McCarty stated, yes sir.
President Stimmel stated, would you please step up and state your name please and…
Bob McCarty stated, I’m Bob McCarty. I’m speaking on behalf of Dan and Jenny Sing.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. McCarty. I’m sorry I butchered the name.
Bob McCarty stated, Bob McCarty.
President Stimmel stated, Bob McCarty, ok Mr. McCarty do we have anything that says that you’re his…
Director Weaver stated, I believe he signed the application.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, and the application I believe is also signed by the owner.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver asked, is that correct?
Bob McCarty stated, yes.
President Stimmel asked, Mr. McCarty do you have anything to add to what was read?
Bob McCarty stated, no sir.
President Stimmel stated, okay. We’ll give the board just a minute to kind of look at the application and read a little bit and then we may have questions for you.
Bob McCarty stated, all right.
President Stimmel stated, thank you. Mr. McCarty?
Bob McCarty asked, yes sir?
President Stimmel asked, would you step to the microphone please? One of the questions that I have sir is just wondering how loud it, because of the proposed addition is towards the Main Street side of the property, is there some reason why they couldn’t go to the areas where there are seemingly a lot of property available to them to build something like that?
Bob McCarty stated, well, no sir that’s just where all their business has been all this time and there has been something there before previously, maybe years ago but…
President Stimmel stated, okay, but their actually proposing to add an addition, right?
Bob McCarty stated, just a roofline sir, like a vault.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Gerald Cartmell asked, people will have to come in, clear around and come in from the side?
Bob McCarty stated, it’ll be open from 3 sides, there’s 2 pillars that’ll be sitting in the front.
Jerry Thompson stated, so this is just basically a canopy type entry way.
Bob McCarty stated, yes. It will be anchored to the ground.
Jerry Thompson stated, right.
Gerald Cartmell asked, it’s not going to be enclosed anywhere is it?
Bob McCarty stated, no, it’s open on 3 sides. It will have a vaulted area with a light.
President Stimmel stated, the size of the addition, Mr. McCarty though is, is actually how big? Just 5’?
Bob McCarty stated, uh, I believe that, if I’m correct myself, I think it’s 6’ 6” wide and it’ll extend out 5’. We’re going to go back a foot and then come back out 5.
President Stimmel stated, okay so the 18’ front setback variance your saying that about 12 of that is because of the widening of Main Street then.
Bob McCarty stated, yes, I assume that, yes.
President Stimmel asked, is that correct Diann, is that the way I’m interpreting that?
Director Weaver stated, I believe you’re correct.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Charlie?
Charlie Mellon asked, using the same entrance off of Main Street?
Bob McCarty stated, yes, it would basically be the same entry way.
Charlie Mellon stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, just extending it out it looks like.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes, extending it out, okay.
President Stimmel asked, Dave, are you with me? Any questions Dave?
Dave Scott asked, so you’re point is there the highway widening has created the hardship? Would that be an accurate statement?
Bob McCarty stated, yes, I don’t see where it would be a hardship to any of her neighbors. Her neighbors with the…
Dave Scott stated, I think you misunderstood me. You have to prove a hardship before we can approve a variance.
Bob McCarty stated, right and there should a letter to that extent sir.
Director Weaver stated, you should have a letter of hardship that was submitted to us on February 15th. Probably with their information that was received tonight.
President Stimmel stated, oh here it is.
Dave Scott stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, I’m going to read this letter into the record Mr. McCarty if that’s all right.
Bob McCarty stated, that’s fine sir.
President Stimmel stated, this is addressed to Diann Weaver, Executive Director, White County Area Plan, White County Building Monticello, Indiana 47960. RE: Variance Overseas China Restaurant. Dear Ms. Weaver: Pleased be advised the undersigned is one of the owners of the real estate commonly known as 1516 N. Main Street, Monticello, Indiana. We are planning to change the entryway which faces North Main Street. Because of the widening of North Main Street, the physical structure of the premises, specifically, the entryway, does not meet the set back requirements. Because of this, an application for a set back variance has been filed with White County Area Plan Commission. The variance is necessary because of the widening of North Main Street. If you have questions regarding the above, please contact my attorney, Donald K. Blair, at the following address and telephone number, etcetera, etcetera. Jenny Mei.
Gerald Cartmell asked, they were in compliance until they widened the street?
Director Weaver stated, I can’t confirm that. I don’t know that they were. That’s part of this request though that they request to bring the whole building into compliance not just the addition.
President Stimmel asked, any other questions? Dave, Gerald, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, ready to vote?
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, we’re voting.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is currently zoned B-2, General Business.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit, and this is to bring all into compliance because of the widening of North Main Street.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for an 18’ front setback variance to bring the existing building into compliance and to add an open vault to the existing restaurant on a parcel of land out of the Northwest Quarter of the Northwest Quarter of Section Twenty-eight (28), Township Twenty-seven (27) North, Range Three (3) West and described as follows: Beginning at a point that is 908.5 feet East of the corner of Section Numbers 20, 21, 28 and 29 same township and range as aforesaid; said point is the Northwest corner of land hereby conveyed; thence South 20 feet; thence South 26 degrees East 320 feet; thence East 295.5 feet; thence North 26 degrees West 272 feet; thence West 20 feet; thence North 56 degrees West 80 feet; thence North 20 feet; thence West 227.5 feet to the place of beginning and containing 2.23 acres, more or less.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located in the City of Monticello, at 1516 N. Main Street.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 4 affirmative and 1 negative.
Attorney Little stated, Mr. President I’ve tabulated the results of the vote and the variance passes by a vote of 4 yes votes to 1 nay vote.
President Stimmel stated, very good, you need to get a building permit sir.
Bob McCarty stated, yes sir.
President Stimmel stated, and you’ll be in business. Thanks a lot Mr. McCarty.
Bob McCarty asked, can we be excused from the building sir?
President Stimmel stated, you can.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I don’t think he heard about a building permit.
President Stimmel stated, oh I’m sorry, yes, you just need to be able, you need to get a building permit Mr. McCarty.
Bob McCarty stated, right.
President Stimmel stated, to go ahead and make the structure up. I think Diann will take care of the sign.
Director Weaver stated, you need to return the sign to us. You didn’t bring it?
Bob McCarty stated, I brought it.
Director Weaver stated, you did, okay.
Bob McCarty stated, it’s back there.
Director Weaver stated, I have a deposit then here for you.
President Stimmel stated, thanks Mr. McCarty.
Bob McCarty stated, thank you.
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#2697 Anliker Family Trust; The property is located on 245.461 Acres, Part E ½ E ½ 33/34-28-4, located South of Monon, between U.S. 421 and C.R. 100 E. and between Quarry Rd. and 500 N.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a Special Exception to construct and operate mining operation (stone quarry) to supply on sight dolomitic lime plant and local economy.
President Stimmel asked, and somebody representing this variance?
Rob Bult stated, Rob Bult here on behalf of Synergy Management.
President Stimmel stated, thanks Mr. Bult. Is there anything you want to add to what we’ve read in the variance?
Rob Bult stated, no it sounds correct.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, we have received 2 letters regarding this request. You received one copy from the Law firm of Dellinger, Dellinger, and Smith in your packet and then we received the other by fax from Ball and Eggleston today and that is dated received today and is from Pat Conn.
Rob Bult stated, we do have a presentation to inform and educate you and answer some of your questions and concerns that you may have.
President Stimmel stated, okay. If they could do, what’s the boards wishes there? Do you want to proceed with that?
Jerry Thompson asked, how much time are you talking?
Rob Bult stated, 45 slides we’re probably talking about 15 to 20 minutes to get through. I can speed it up.
President Stimmel stated, there will be questions afterwards I know, as you notice there are folks in the audience that would like to talk.
Rob Bult stated, right, it’s very similar to the presentation we presented to the Plan Commission except a little more detailed you know after speaking with some of the folks after that there was some questions asked on a little more detail.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Charlie what do you think?
Charlie Mellon stated, maybe you could read those letters while he’s setting up.
President Stimmel stated, you want to go ahead and hear the presentation then after we read the letters.
Charlie Mellon stated, well read them while he’s setting it up if it’s going to take him awhile.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I think he’s already set.
Director Weaver stated, I think he’s set up.
Rob Bult stated, I need about 1 minute or so to get the projector ready.
Charlie Mellon stated, oh all right go ahead.
President Stimmel asked, do you want to hear it Gerald?
Gerald Cartmell stated, well whatever.
President Stimmel asked, Dave?
Dave Scott stated, sure, might as well.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, it’d only be fair I guess, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right. Let’s go ahead and do it. Do you want me to read those letters real quick? The first letter is dated February the 7th to the White County Area Plan Commission White County Board of Zoning Appeals c/o Diann Weaver and Jerry Altman White County Building Monticello, IN 47960. RE: Request to rezone and request for variance special use – Anliker Family Trust property – Monon Township – approximately .256 acres. Dear Members: Please be advised that I represent Dale and Lind Griffin with regards to the above mentioned rezoning and variance requests currently before you. My clients own adjacent property. My clients’ property contains a pond and a beautiful building site which they intend to use in their retirement years. I understand that the company purchasing the Anliker property desires to mine limestone and construct a factory on the site to process limestone. I understand that the manufacturing process would require great amounts of water and would pollute the surrounding area. Obviously truck traffic would increase and the existing access roads would be overburdened. The surrounding property is agricultural in nature with a few residences – an I-2 classification would allow a number of light industrial businesses to be constructed on the property. This use would not be consistent with the use of the surrounding property. The county does not need 260 acres of ground rezoned to I-2 in this location. If rezoned, a variance should not be granted. A variance may only be granted if the use of the property will not be injurious to the health, safety and general welfare of the public and the use of adjacent land will not be adversely affected. The Board must, also, find the use would be a minimum departure from the strict application of the ordinance and that a variance would not alter the character of the surrounding area. To approve a special exception, the Board must find that the use will not interfere with the general enjoyment of adjacent property and will not be hazardous to the adjacent property and that the special use will not place demands on existing public services and facilities. The intended use of the property will deplete adjoiner’s existing water supplies; will be hazardous to adjoiner’s health and welfare and will have an adverse effect on the adjoining owners’ land values. The property should not be rezoned and no variance/special exception should be granted. My clients will not be able to attend the meeting on February 11, 2008. Please consider this letter as their formal objection to pending applications/petitions. Very truly yours, Dellinger, Dellinger, and Smith, Terry L. Smith. That’s the first letter. Do you have a copy of that? The second letter is to the White County Board of Zoning Appeals, Monticello, IN RE: Special Exception request by applicant Rob Bult, RLB Holdings LLC. Dear Honorable Members, My name is Pat Conn and due to a family situation I am unable to be with you Thursday night. I kindly request my letter to you be read into the public record at your meeting. I live at 413 N. Linden in Monon and write on behalf of my family as a union worker in the area’s mining industry. I am concerned about this request to build a lime plant and add a new quarry just south of town. I am very concerned about this because no one in town knows anything about it and the plans presented so far leave more questions than answers. People think this is just another quarry. We know quarries here in Monon and I’ve worked in the business myself for more than 3 years. This is much more than a quarry. At a limestone quarry, we crush rock. As we tell kids, we make small rocks out of big rocks. This project is nothing like Material Service or Vulcan. This group is proposing to build a lime plant, which would have a couple or even three large furnaces that would burn fuel and cook material every hour, every day of the week, every week of the year. This is a complicated process that can impact the air we breathe. This project would also continually flood the area market with more material than it can support today. We all know Material Service has been slow already. I am concerned that this project stands to negatively impact the current union jobs in the area and my property value and quality of life and I am very concerned that the public has been kept in the dark. My family, neighbors and co-workers have every right to know about what stands before us and we in White County have every right to demand that any applicant prove to us that our health, jobs, property value and well being will not be impacted. Yes jobs are important, especially high-paying union jobs. But please consider the best interest of your own people first. Give the community time to learn about this whole project. Give us time to ask questions and most importantly to get detailed answers. Once this leaves the county, it’s out of our local hands and up to the state. Please support jobs and your own people by tabling this item until we all have had real chance to decide for ourselves that we won’t be harmed. Sincerely, Patricia Conn 413 North Linden, Monon, Indiana 47959. Okay, I’ve read those into the record. Mr. Bult, do you want to proceed?
Rob Bult stated, okay and I believe this presentation will answer those issues.
President Stimmel stated, okay, great.
Rob Bult stated, I’d also like to add I brought my project manager with Dave Armbruster and also my environmentalist, John Castlebury. We’re Synergy Management. My name is Rob Bult. Who we are, independent business owner, I’ve been in the transportation business for over 20 years and operate some other existing businesses. Mr. Cross my partner in Synergy Management again independent business owner. He’s worked for a fortune 500 stone and lime company in a wide variety of operating positions for over 20 years. The team we’ve assembled for this project has a 100+ years in the lime industry, a lot of experience, a lot of talent. Our objective tonight is share information about our plans to build and operate a stone, a mining operation and a lime plant that would bring jobs to the area, let you know about our values, about being a good neighbor, being a part of the community, the safe operator and we want to educate you about our operation in a plant design and we request this special use permit, I believe I worded that wrong, special exemption permit for mining. Plant locations, we’ve identified several locations but based on some factors, a major factor being quality material, we have a finished product spec that we have to meet so the quality or the chemistry of this stone is very important to us. Um, this area was created, what makes this area attractive to build a lime plant, the geology and I might be a hundred million years off here, I’m not a geologist but the geology that went through this area 500 million years ago, if you can think of it as a, this was an ocean similar to Australia with the Great Barrier Reef, you had a similar type of conditions where you have a lot of the reef deposits throughout this area. And again, we, you know quality of stone is very important for us to meet our finish product spec. Property map, aerial view of where our location is relative to the town and the other existing operations, uh, closer in view of our property boundaries, 2 houses we have reached agreements with both those homeowners to purchase their homes.
John Castleberry stated, Rob you might point out the letter in question, the owner, the pond area.
Rob Bult stated, oh okay.
President Stimmel asked, sir would you identify yourself for the microphone so, I know I understand.
John Castleberry stated, John Castleberry.
President Stimmel stated, okay John thank you very much.
Rob Bult stated, the pond area in reference to the first letter you read, this area here, we have talked to Mr. Griffin, Mr. and Mrs. Griffin, uh but so the letter came as kind of as a surprise.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Rob Bult stated, some of our core beliefs, our operation will be a safe place to work. We’ll meet or exceed all environmental requirements, our employees will be a part of a successful team and we will support the local community both financially and personally and when I mean personally well community service, you know school sponsorship programs, you know we want to have the kids come out and we want to do field trips, cub scouts, you know girl scouts sponsor sports teams, you know who knows, I mean, you know one of these kids could be the next plant manager or our next geologist or even our next environmental attorney. Uh, for the community, I mean it would be a good corporate neighbor, steady jobs, you know we operate 365 days a year. Taxes generated will support local schools, fire department, hospitals, roads, other taxing entities. In addition to the core employment at the plant additional jobs your looking at 30 plus just in driving jobs and remember, you know our employees will live and raise their families in your community. Our market, what do we make, we make dolo lime, our biggest customer is the domestic steel industry. What does lime do in the steel industry? Well, dolo lime help purify the steel, meaning it brings impurities out of the steel, your, what they refer to is slag and this particular dolo lime is very high in magnesium, mgo and what that does is it extends the life of the refractory product substantially so it’s a huge cost savings for the steel industry to use dolo. The dolo lime, as I explained earlier must meet exacting specs as to its physical and chemical properties and bottom line is without a hog quality lime US steel production would be crippled. Some other markets that we sell to fuel gas desulphurization, power plants that burn coal for their sulfur emissions removal they use lime. Soil stabilization road base, lime is also used in asphalt, you have agriculture lime, what you call sweetening in the soil, it’s used in the water treatment industry, used in a paper and pulp industry. It’s used in a wide variety in the chemical industry. You know, we’ll make a high quality product that customers want to buy. Some market conditions, the US produces about 20 million tons a year. In 2007 lime production actually decreased 4% but also in 2007 lime prices increased 8%. Lime prices increased 38% since 2003, why, well there’s less producers in the market place and it’s due to a number of conditions, one, 6 or 8 years ago the condition of the steel economy was terrible and some other issues were due to the ages of some of the existing plants. So the demand for dolo continues to increase steadily every year. Confidence in the market, we have state of the art kilns, we produce a very, or we will be a very reliable supplier meaning this plant is not being built with a bunch of used parts. This is state of the art, brand new equipment and steel coming into this plant. Uh, all the steel that will be used in the construction of this plant is made in the United States. The fact the plant is located on the raw material supply makes us a very economical supplier, what I mean by that, well it’s a 2 to 1 ratio, it takes 2 pound of stone to make one pound of finished product so if you have any transportation cost in moving your raw material substantially makes you an uneconomical supplier. So with new kilns and our team approach customer relations we already have guaranteed business, long term contracts in place for over half of our production. Uh, we know that the ethanol plant ran into some difficulty where uh we’re in a different situation. Our product competes in an open market, there’s no government involvement uh, as far as setting prices you know on the raw or finish shot of our product. Again we have long term contracts in place for a significant amount of our finished product. In fact in our industry, the lime industry is essential to the US economy like I said it’s used in many industries and key ingredient, the equipment required to produce lime is massive, heavy complex and making the lime industry capitol intensive. What do I mean by that addresses one of the issues in the letter, we’re spending roughly 6 or 7 times the amount of what it would just to produce a mining operation so you know the stone we’re mining you know for us to sell that on the street makes no sense, economics don’t work, you know. We’re mining stone to put it in the kiln. Lime is basic to the manufacture steel, numerous other products, you know millions of jobs have depended upon limes continued availability. Now without lime virtually the cost of all consumer goods would increase due to more expensive alternatives. Facts in our industry, 2 largest lime producing countries in the United States now are now foreign owned. One of your stone, one of your local stone producers is now foreign owned. Synergy Management is home grown. I live an hour north of here. We play a very aggressive role in our operations. Our time frame of when our final stages are, are environmental permitting, I need to put an address on the permit, or we need to put an address on the permit. We’re within 6 months or less for approval from IDEM on air permitting. Once we have an air permit in place about 18 months construction time to build this plant and depending on the week or where we’re at on the construction end of things you could have 10 to 100 construction workers on site. Plant details similar to both Vulcan and Hansen operations, position berm to help reduce the visibility of the plants, you know the lime plant operation you know we’re calcining, we’re cooking the rock in 2 rotary kilns. Again you know 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Uh, these 2 plants were built by a, one of the family companies of Synergy Management TPS built these aggregate plants, were completed here in the last 12 months in the Chicago land area. We’ve got a little 3D video to show you of what a 2 kiln lime plant will look like. I can point it out to you. The raw material stone is fed into a preheater. The material is preheated, this is the new and latest and greatest technology and efficiency so the stone is actually already starting to cook before it enters the kiln. About 2 ½ hours through the kiln the kiln rotates at 1 rpm, 1 revolution a minute material falls into a cooling pit and then it’s conveyored out into storage bins for distribution or sizing and distributions to the final customer. And I’ll speed this up for you so I’ll cut this short a little bit. A little hard to see but this is a 2 kiln operation being constructed, you could see the pillars their, it’s probably about 30’ in the air, the way our plant is designed it’ll actually be a lot closer to the ground. It’ll be about 5, 6’ off the ground. Again this is a newly constructed stone crushing plant, look very similar to what we will be installing but I want you to visualize this plant because of the way we’re designed that plant will actually sit down in hole. This is about a 70’ wall here, we’re designed, the plant will actually sit down on about a 60’ bench level so you will not see this plant from the street. Again a picture of a one, one kiln being constructed, latest and greatest in automation here on the left, the plant itself um, has a, it’s hundreds of electric motors from 5 horse powers, I believe the largest being 1200 horse power so these are some of the mcc drives and variable speeds that will control some of that. Picture control room, a room similar to this, you’ll have your operators in there with monitors monitoring all different aspects of the plant. On the right is product and storage take away meaning your conveyors and your bins. On your left is monitoring emissions, on your right is monitoring temperatures throughout the calcining process. Another screen monitoring preheater. Plant will employ 30 to 35 skilled workers, wages and benefits will among the best in the area. Hourly wages in the 17 to 22 dollar range competitive benefits, you know full time employment on the hourly side alone it will exceed a million and a half dollars a year in payroll. Further break down of that, you know the ingratiate side your looking at about 10 to 15 jobs to lime operation 20 to 25 jobs and again you know additional jobs to support those operations, you know just driving jobs along to ship the material. Administrative, you know the supervisor, the office staff, engineering, safety and environmental, you know, counting, these are all additional jobs, salaried positions. I’ll get a little more detailed here operating practices regulations environmental blasting, landscaping and then what do we do with this thing 100 years from now. Operating practice, you know safe access and these are internal, safe access the roads and highways, we’ve already met with INDOT as far as access on 421 we’ll be expanding the road 16’ on each side, putting in turning lanes. You know roads maintained and a little further in the presentation here will get to how we do that uh, no stock piling near the property lines, you know quarry roads will be watered they will also be paved which your current operations are not, you know, we’ll have berms around and security fence. Indiana, you know who regulates us, well in the limestone mining in Indiana is not regulated by the Indiana Department of Natural Resources. It’s voluntary uh all mining operations belong to the Indiana mining and ag association. Uh, explosives, uh, the majority of the operations, mining operations do not do their own blasting, that’s subbed out. It’s pretty specialized. Air permit, IDEM controls the air permitting both to construct and operate water permits. IDEM controls part of that and then also on a discharge side and John Castleberry can speak more of that if you have questions on that. Environmental you know, we install a truck washer, the roads are paved, we operate a water truck, street sweeper, a dust suppression systems, settling ponds and settling pond and we’ve got on the plant layout you can see you know kind of where that is on the property and how that works. Pollution prevention you know, best management practices normal amount of pollution prevention, spill water prevention you know, control plan, waste disposal management you know, similar to, to other industries the way they operate. A sediment erosion control you know we’ve got a storm water pollution plan, grating to deflect, storm water flow and reduce velocity and erosion, seatmate traps, wells, retention ponds you know re-vegetation of disturbed areas. Okay, sorry. Uh, blasting, blasting is done by a qualified state licensed blasting professionals, uh, vibration management, right now with the tonnage we need to supply the client that it looks like we’ll be blasting about 5 times a week that could vary a little bit depending how a large a bench work we’re doing at that time but again blasting has changed significantly in the last 20 years you know, in the old days you know, you drilled the holes, you fill it with explosives, you ran a long wick and then you ran like hell. I mean it’s not like that anymore. I mean everything is computerized, it’s done on a time delayed, I mean milliseconds apart and what that does is it substantially reduces your vibration. Uh, you know and it also cancels it out. If you can think of it like being on the beach and the old way of blasting, you’ve got a 50’ tidal wave coming at you, well with the new way of blasting now you know, little 3 or 4’ swells hitting the beach you just, with the time delays now it’s night and day difference. Landscaped, berm along 421, this is what you can expect to see from us along 421. You know, nice size berm with landscaping on top. Plant entrance you can expect to see something similar to this. Reclamation plan you know, what do we do with this thing 100 years from now, a lot of different options I mean, we’ve seen golf courses, lake communities, um, you know natural lakes similar to the Monon quarry meaning where the Vanguard Trailer place is located now. Probably in interconnection with Hansen Quarry, um you know, as Hansen expands their quarry, um the 2 eventually you know, 75 years from now will be fairly close to each other. You know subdivision aquaculture park development, post mine preparation you know high wall stabilization removal of loose rock, um slope reduction, you know instead of steep walls we blasted, grated so you know, if you’ve got nice angled walls you know, in turning back filling out a quarry floor, final grading, top soil displacement you know, re-vegetation, soil testing short and long term, erosion control plans, plant growth rate establishments and permanent cover use of multiple species, wildlife benefit you know, if this thing is going to be reforest your talking 400 trees per acres. But again you know, these are things that can be done you know 75, 100 years down the road. In summary we have a good target market, we’ll operate a safe plant, we will be a good neighbor, we’ll bring steady employment to the area, you know with attractive wages and benefits. You know we want to build this plant and we request a special exemption for mining. So, any questions? You know again I’m Rob Bult, any questions that we could answer, Dave Armbruster…
Linda Eckert asked, Can I ask a question?
President Stimmel stated, sure.
Linda Eckert stated, my name is Linda Eckert, I live right down the road from where you attempting to put this monstrosity.
Rob Bult stated, um hum.
Linda Eckert stated, I am vehemently against it. That is a rural area. People that have been in that area for 100 years, live there and you are now destroying our environment. Um, I have some questions, number 1 how much water does your plant use?
John Castleberry stated, John Castleberry. No water except for application on the roads. Quarry use, dust suppression.
Linda Eckert asked, how are you getting the water from your drilling or your digging out of that kit into the lake? We have a water table.
John Castleberry stated, you have a water table.
Linda Eckert stated, I’ve been told that it’s going to cost me 10 thousand dollars if the water table goes down any further. I don’t have 10 thousand dollars.
John Castleberry stated, the water that accumulates in our quarry will be discharged to either the Martin ditch or the Sills ditch. Are you on either side?
Linda Eckert stated, I’m ¾ of a mile north.
John Castleberry asked, of Martin ditch?
Linda Eckert stated, uh I don’t know I think it’s called, what is that ditch McDermott or something.
John Castleberry stated, oh McKillip?
Linda Eckert stated, McKillip, yes.
John Castleberry stated, so the water actually charge fills, the storm water comes into those ditches and then is your source for um, water table raising.
Linda Eckert stated, um hum.
John Castleberry stated, we will on the inside, I don’t think we’ll have any impact to your well what so ever.
Linda Eckert stated, I would disagree with you but I won’t at this particular time. I’ve been talking to well people in the area and I’m told if we have much more burden on our water table we will be out of water in the Monon area. That is…
President Stimmel stated, Miss Eckert, Miss Eckert just a question. Actually just a question, actually your property’s located closer to the Hansen pit than it will be to this pit, right?
Linda Eckert stated, yes, yes. Well I’m right in the middle. I’ve got, we’ve got Vulcan here, we’ve got Hansen here and now we have these folks here.
President Stimmel stated, well actually looking at the map you’re a little bit further north than that.
Linda Eckert stated, right, yes, I’m about a, ¾ of a mile from here at this point and time. I’ve talked to Titus well.
President Stimmel stated, I guess I’m asking and wondering how Hansen has affected your water table.
Linda Eckert stated, uh, at this point it hasn’t but what we’re finding out is they go deeper and deeper and deeper, we’re going to have more and more problems as they pump out more water.
John Castleberry stated, it appears to me just looking at the Monon lake, the old Monon quarry that your water table is very, very high and there doesn’t seem to be any indication of dewatering what so ever. As a result of the Hansen mining active and uh, I’ve been inside that pit and seen very little water infiltrating in to it but they do discharge into the Martin ditch which goes to the McKillip and I believe at that point because it’s shallow it helps recharge the aquifer as it’s heading towards Lake Shafer.
Linda Eckert stated, and increases the silt going into Lake Shafer also. True?
John Castleberry stated, no.
Linda Eckert stated, no.
John Castleberry stated, no because actually mining companies are regulated by permits which prevents discharge of silty material to those ditches. The amount of silt that goes into that ditch would be far less than what comes in off the natural land.
Linda Eckert asked, so the more water you put in the ditch as it’s leaving the ditch, go down there and filter it out, out the end, is that correct?
John Castleberry stated, no they, the water infiltrates into the banks on both sides of the ditches as it is, as it is heading towards the lake. During your high water conditions you would likely see more going in the bank storage.
Linda Eckert stated, um hum. Okay, what type of lime are you folks doing, there’s hydrated lime. Do you do anything with the hydrated lime where you have to add the water?
John Castleberry stated, no, no.
Linda Eckert asked, or anything of that nature?
John Castleberry stated, no there are 2 types of lime. One is called quick lime and the other is called hydrated lime. Hydrated lime is a little more exotic but at this stage we are not considering that.
Linda Eckert stated, okay, you had retention ponds. I saw them in your pictures. What are the retention ponds from and what are they used for? What are they used for?
John Castleberry stated, well that’s another means of purifying the water prior to discharge.
Linda Eckert asked, purifying the water from where sir?
John Castleberry stated, from the mud that is created. As we mine we are going to have dirty water, but in order to meet discharge limits it needs to settle before it is exiting the property. That will all be regulated through and IDEM permit. We will have very stringent limits on what we can discharge.
Linda Eckert asked, so how big are the retaining ponds?
John Castleberry stated, they’ll be sized according to the pit. We haven’t got that definition yet but they’ll start out small and then grow with time.
Linda Eckert asked, and the distress that’s in the bottom of them what do you do with that?
John Castleberry stated, no, no.
Linda Eckert stated, or the sediment.
John Castleberry stated, well the sediment…
Linda Eckert asked, where does that go?
John Castleberry stated, well the sediment in the bottom will go back into our quarry.
Linda Eckert stated, okay.
John Castleberry stated, you know the mud, it’s just like a…
Linda Eckert stated, its called silt.
John Castleberry stated, like a mud hole, a mud hole or a…
Linda Eckert stated, yes a mud hole.
John Castleberry stated, drain in a, what do you call them, in the streets, it’s a street drain, a sediment trap in the bottom.
Linda Eckert stated, so…
John Castleberry stated, then you scoop that out and you take it off and dispose it.
Linda Eckert asked, what type of kilns are sold in your eroderdy? What type of fuel do you use? Is it oil, coal, or natural gas?
John Castleberry stated, we’ll probably be burning coal and…
Linda Eckert stated, coal, low sulfur or high sulfur?
John Castleberry stated, low sulfur.
Linda Eckert stated, low sulfur. Uh, what is the discharge from that? Would the particulate matter? Is it going to be regulated so that the…
John Castleberry stated, well certainly, certainly everything…
Linda Eckert asked, can you give us a guarantee that we’re not going to have a bad, increasing pollution in our area?
John Castleberry stated, I will guarantee you that you, our permit to omit will meet applicable EPA and state requirements.
Linda Eckert asked, but will it meet our living standards?
John Castleberry stated, I assure you it will.
Linda Eckert stated, uh, let me see. Next question, water pumping was there. Transportation, okay you’re talking using your road to do this or are you going to use…
John Castleberry stated, we maybe, be using railroad eventually.
Linda Eckert stated, railroad. Accesses from the front on 421?
John Castleberry stated, we’ll start off using truck primarily.
Linda Eckert asked, does it access on 421?
John Castleberry stated, yes.
Linda Eckert asked, so you won’t be using US or the highway, what is that County Road 100, running down that way?
Rob Bult stated, no we’re going, we’re spending a lot of money improving road access on 421.
Linda Eckert stated, okay I noticed you had a very nice berm on 421. What happens on the back side?
John Castleberry asked, back side of the berm or…
Linda Eckert stated, no on the back side of the property.
John Castleberry stated, well it’ll have a berm too.
Rob Bult stated, it won’t be landscaped quite as nice as…
Linda Eckert stated, oh of course not, yes, yes.
Rob Bult stated, but there will be a berm with grass planted on it.
John Castleberry stated, the berms are constructed of top soil and over burden that it has to be removed to get down to the rock. That’s what you see along the Vulcan side and along the Hansen side. It’s basically a storage location and then at the sensation of mining when reclamation begins that material can be used to reclaim the pits. Cover the slipped walls.
Linda Eckert stated, the last question I have is how are you going to save my property value because nobody in the state is going to want to buy my farm if you put in that facility there or anybody else’s farm around there. How are you going to do that?
John Castleberry stated, I don’t think it will degrade the value of your farm at all. Your, your crop yield will be…
Linda Eckert stated, oh I don’t have a farm, I mean I have farm land, I have a house, my value is in my house. Nobody is going to want to purchase my house or even be near my house if we have this type of heavy industry in our area. We’re a farming community. I lived in the northwest, I’ve seen some of your lime facilities. Most of the time in the northwest they put them in the middle of an area where nobody’s around so they’re not, um, there not an eye sore. There is one on the boarder of Oregon. You come around the corner and when you see this thing it reminds you of a ghost. You’ve got light pollution, you have noise pollution, it is ascetically not nice to look at. It does not belong in a farming community. How are you going to help my property values maintained? How are you being a good neighbor?
John Castleberry stated, well for one reason, we’re back inside the property so it’s going to be less obvious. We’re going to attract jobs to this community, we’re going to help the tax base of this community…
Linda Eckert stated, no your not going to help the tax base, what’s going to happen is my property value’s going to go down, my, and actually it’s a nice thing because I’m not going to have to pay property taxes. My property taxes are going to go down to nothing because the value of my property is not going to be anything what it is now and your going to have that in our entire area. You know it’s very nice that you’re bringing us a nice new plant with nice toys but it’s not doing us a darn bit of good as far as the community is concerned and keeping our people here and keeping us happy. We have a right to a good quality life. I’m sorry I think you are endangering our lives, our quality of life.
President Stimmel asked, is that the end of your testimony Mrs. Eckert?
Linda Eckert stated, just about, just one more thing and then I…
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Linda Eckert stated, will be really quiet, okay because I’ve really had…
President Stimmel stated, let’s try not to get off the tract to far.
Linda Eckert stated, uh, but what I would like to know is why we have not had a discussion in the Monon community about this. This is just a terrible tragedy, terrible that people in the area have not known anything about this and I talked to Buzz Horton and I’m so disappointed. We have elected officials to take care of us. I don’t feel you have been taking care of us. I’m very disappointed.
Rob Bult stated, I’ll speak to that. I’ve spoken to the government officials in Monon and…
President Stimmel stated, stand up to the microphone please Mr. Bult, thank you.
Rob Bult stated, I’ve spoken to the government officials in Monon and the response has been positive. In fact I’ve been asked to come speak at the Chamber, Monon Chamber of Commerce luncheon next week.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Linda Eckert stated, one thing, you may have spoken to the town of Monon, you did not speak to the people who’ve lived out here. Marvin lives out there, Jimmy Clark lives out there, Chris Williams lives out there…
President Stimmel stated, Mrs. Eckert would you mind stepping to the microphone or are you…
Linda Eckert stated, I’m done, I’m done. It’s just a lot there.
President Stimmel stated, all right is there anybody else who’d like to testify? Mr. Bumbleburg?
Joe Bumbleburg stated, thank you Mr. Chairman, I’m Joe Bumbleburg. I’m with Ball, Eggleston in Lafayette and I represent the Boehning family interest in this matter. I don’t, there was a letter sent to the Commissioners and the Board of Zoning Appeals from Mr. Boehning. I suspected that got lost in the shuffle.
President Stimmel stated, it did.
Joe Bumbleburg stated, so I have copies of that where it can also be read into the record.
President Stimmel stated, that degree. I’m sure you understand that was not intentional Mr. Bumbleburg?
Joe Bumbleburg stated, oh yes I understand, I know how this works. It could have gotten to the Commissioners file or whatever. That letter I would ask, you can read it silently if you choose but that it be printed into your minutes as if it were read verbatim into the record.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Would you like me to read it Mr. Bumbleburg for the benefit of the audience?
Joe Bumbleburg stated, I would leave that to the pleasure of the board.
President Stimmel stated, okay why don’t you let me read it. It won’t take that long. It’s dated February 14, 2008, White County Board of Commissioners and the White County Board of Zoning Appeals, White County office building, Monticello, IN 47960. RE: Request to Rezone and for special use/special exception-Anliker Family Trust Property. Dear Members of the Board of Zoning Appeals and County Commissioners: I represent the Albrecht Family and the Albrecht Monon Farm, LLC. My client is a neighbor to the land involved in the above described land use matters. On behalf of my clients, I write to voice my objections to the rezoning and the grant of a special exception which would permit the construction and operation of a stone quarry mining operation and the building on site of a dolomitic lime plant. I am discouraged at the action of the Area Plan Commission, which did not require a plan for the land improvements in such a form as to comply with Section 3.2003d of the Zoning Ordinance of White County Indiana. I am advised that at the meeting, some drawings were proposed, some discussion was held and a vote was taken. I do not believe that the plans contained the contour map required, indications of where artificial lighting would be and how and when grading and seeding and landscape improvements would be made. While building structure and equipment were shown, it was not in such sufficient detail as to provide a plan for future enforcement and review. It does not appear that an appropriate site plan has been filed indicating that this proposed improvement will not adversely affect public health, safety, welfare, convenience, the environment or any combination thereof to present or potential surrounding land uses. The use proposed must be consistent with the White County Comprehensive Plan which was never mentioned at the Area Plan Commission meeting. Indeed the general standards as set forth on page 69 of the Ordinance, having to do with all kinds of various changes and requirements was not in any great sense discussed. In addition, unlike the existing construction aggregate operations in the area today, this proposed project is much more complicated and complex. The petitioner intends to construct and operate a lime plant, which according to their presentation will operate 24-hours a day, 365 days a year. I am advised, the petitioners again, failed to produce detailed plans for building and operating the facility in a manner that is acceptable and safe for the general public. Furthermore, as this is a chemical process, the public needs to know more about the petitioner’s specific credentials, experience and environmental track record in constructing and operating lime plants. Jobs and economic development are important to White County, but not at the expense of its existing jobs and quality of life. This matter should not be approved for multiple reasons and for significant reason that there have not been the public assurances required to protect the general population from this use. Very truly yours, Richard A. Boehning.
Joe Bumbleburg stated, thank you Mr. Chairman. I would observe that the request tonight is for a special exception and a special exception is essentially a request to permit a use in an existing zone and now we have the existing zone when the County Commissioners acted but this request to permit this, this, if you will, exception, the special use or special activity in that zone is an interesting thing under our Ordinance it’s a wavier if you will of the stricter standards of the zoning district and it’s clear from this Ordinance, it’s clear from the statutes that grounds this Ordinance and any other Ordinance that you read about this that the use that is permitted by a special exception as one that requires individual review and individual consideration and that’s the job that is visited on you folks here this evening. When it’s filed there should be a site plan complying with section 5.2 of your Ordinance and that simply did not happen. The only thing that saved the baby meeting the other night with the Area Plan Commission was the lawyer for the Plan Commission advising the group that what he thought he saw was in some form of substantial compliance, whatever that might be. The requirements of your Ordinance require compliance with this plan with the White County Comprehensive Plan and the White County Comprehensive Plan is a chapter in the ring binder that you all have. The words "Comprehensive Plan" with regards to this petition have not been mentioned as close as I can tell in any meeting about this until I just did it. A comprehensive plan was not mentioned at all at the Area Plan Commission meeting. I doubt that it was mentioned at the Commissioners meeting. It’s not mentioned in your staff report and the petitioner has never said this meets the comprehensive plan. There has been no specific finding and I think that the obligation upon you as Board members here is to find that this thing does comply with the comprehensive plan. How would you do that? You should have heard evidence of that issue. In addition, you as a Board have to determine and find that the uses that are proposed here will have a beneficial effect and will not adversely effect public health, safety, welfare, convenience, or the environment, or any combination of those things, uh on any present or potential surrounding land use, Does that language sound stilted? It is a little bit. That’s almost a verbatim out of your Ordinance. That’s the standard that you are to measure by. The beneficial effect for the County shall be one which could not be achieved under any other zoning consideration. The uses proposed have to be consistent as I’ve indicated with a comprehensive plan and then there are all kinds of details that you have to get into and why am I belaboring this point about a plan, it’s very simple, the plan exists. It should exist in a for which makes it recordable and the reason that you do that is four years from now, six years from now, or whenever, a citizen comes in and says this problem exists on this mineral extraction facility and I think it violates the grant of the special exception you must be able to go back and look at whatever documents are there and determine whether or not a violation of the comprehensive plan whether or not the special exception is violated, the comprehensive plan or the Ordinance. The only way you do that is you have to look at some document that was frozen in place. Now this has been a very able presentation here but the road to predation is paved with good intentions. Many of them absolutely perfect and that’s exactly what you have there. When that vanishes from that screen tonight it goes onto the pieces of paper into the file that Mrs. Weaver has and then I would say to you find for me on that one thing or the other and most of it you cannot find, most of it you cannot find. The landscaping, where it is written how the landscaping is to be treated, they told you that there would be a berm. Where is it written that they must have that berm? That’s why you have a plan so that it can be taken down to recorders office and record it. That’s the way reclamation plans are treated under the typical Zoning Ordinance. That gives you people the confidence that whatever you do tonight won’t splash back on neither this Board or the county at some point in the future. Landscaping is one of those things that has to be looked at, buffering, the plan ought to show a buffering. Now at the Area Plan Commission meeting, the Plan Commission, I believe was told oh well produce that a later date. Well what if they produce us something at a later date, how does the Plan Commission then judge that? You’ve already approved it. You’ve granted to them their rezoning, you will have granted to them if you permit it tonight, the special exception without a single standard against which somebody can be measured. This is for their protection too. Enforcement of Zoning Ordinances is designed so that a person knows what is required of them. They can go look and I say to you, what is required of this petitioner from the point of view of a petitioner. This lady back here when she comes before you in 2 years and says they told me, uh, that they weren’t going to affect my water and the gentleman said he would guarantee it. Where is that guarantee in the record? It’s not there is it? Vehicular and pedestrian circulation, that drawing right there, he talks about an accel, decel lane and you don’t see it on that drawing, do you? Now maybe it’s on the one behind it that is supposed to be the plan but I know very well dealing with INDOT all the time that they’ll drive you nuts making you have drawings. So there is something that is recordable. There is something. A site plan consistent with the ordinance’s required, 3.2003d of the Ordinance of White County. You know one thing I know about White County is that in the last several years you’ve made strides forward to try to make your land use system understandable, workable, and enforceable. But let me tell you if the rush to judgment on this issue continues forward all the good works of the last several years are going to be unraveled pretty quickly but, but an Ordinance, the Ordinance would suggest that the plan has to have the contours on it, it has to have the mining area delineated, the vehicular ingress and egress has to be specifically outlined, the place and measure of the artificial lighting has to be done, the grading and seeding and landscaping improvements have to be shown at least where they are, building structures, equipment and berming and screening and landscaping all have to be shown on some document and you have to approve them. And I don’t know how you’re going to do that here this evening. How many of those things are on any site plan and where indeed and where indeed does it say by the petitioner, we will do them in a form of a commitment and commitment is a word of art in the zoning world. It’s your pledge in writing and recordable that says I will do what I have shown you. I think it’s 10.2007 of your Ordinance, I think that’s where it is and that is a statement likely required to be on the site plan and in the presentation of the reclamation plan and you know the other night at the Area Plan Commission somebody said well we can’t do a reclamation plan because we’re going to be digging here for years. Which means of course if you don’t do the reclamation plan and by the time they get done digging there won’t be any of us around to look at that. But that’s not so, reclamation plans are, are worked on as you go along. I, I, what did I do with it, I had it here. I went back into my own files the other day and I’ve done a gravel pit or two and here’s a reclamation plan that we did that shows the contour lines, the buffer lines, the area of the dig, all that kind of stuff and I could take you right down, right now to the Recorder in Tippecanoe County and if I could find it here I could show you the deed, record and page number of the recording where you can go find that and that’s a plan that shows how you reclaim a pit and that’s a plan that was done at the outset that says okay, here’s our buffer lines, here’s where we’re going to grade, here’s where we’re going to replant and this sort of stuff, uh, that’s all necessary. Now that’s, so you don’t have to wait 70 years in this thing to come up with a reclamation plan, that’s absurd. Reliance on an incomplete site plan is a recipe for bad enforcement of your Ordinance. It’s a recipe for a disaster in the future because you will not have any standards and you will not have any measures. A review of this application and the site plan such as it is has to be made in accordance with your Ordinance and with the provisions and procedures and standards. If it isn’t there, uh then what will you have approved tonight? You will have approved in affect a blank check. You can’t do that if you are going to be faithful to the people to the county. You have the power to insist on this petitioner producing a document to your satisfaction that says exactly what you think is necessary to protect the people of the community. A reclamation plan should be present to comply with good zoning and land use practices, clearly. The other interesting thing is I had an engineer go over what was in the file. Thirty different items that the engineer raised about this particular petition. I want to offer for the record these 30 items so that we can let the record show that there are things that could have been done to make the plan appropriate. I will provide one of these to each of the members and I would say when you assign this kind of things to one of my friends, an engineer, you’re going to get some stuff that some people will think of as, as petty maybe, small but to them when they look at a plan and say well that thing doesn’t show the mining limits. Interestingly enough tonight we start to talk about explosives, uh, where will they be stored on the site. Uh, I haven’t seen anything about that. Finally tonight we start to talk about the kinds of permits, well they didn’t describe it I finally find out that they think they’re going to be involved with rule 5. We now know that there’s berms. The overburden, no one has said to us what happens if there is more overburden for the berms but in any event here are 30 different things that should have been considered and should have been put together for you and your consideration and likewise my clients and I had this thing looked at, people in the environmental world and I would hand up a series of environmental issues also for the record Mr. Chairman and I have copies of that for everybody.
President Stimmel stated, thank you.
Joe Bumbleburg stated, Now it is not my diet desire to unnecessary complicate this thing it is my desire to suggest to this Board that there is a right way and a wrong way to do it and if you get rushed into this, what is the old expression if you want it bad you get it bad, your headed that way if you do not make a plan tonight or make this petitioner back up and take a deep breath, leave their petition on file and come in and really tell you how this thing is going to be done and what it’s going to look like in the years past and how ladies like this one right here are going to be protected and my guess is that are not great numbers of people out in that area but everyone of them has their investment and their right that this Board is charged with protecting. Members of the Board it is absolutely clear to me that this is a very interesting project, it’s a very interesting project and it might have great economical value to White County but do not create a festering sore up there that the future boards, the future building commissioners, the future county commissioners cannot regulate in the future because if you do, you will look back and your heirs will look back and say wow they didn’t leave us with something very nice there. My advice is to you is to turn this special exception down until such time is they come in with the appropriate documentation to satisfy you that the welfare, the general welfare of the community is protected by this or I suppose you could put them off for whatever time it takes to do all of this but the bare minimum is you have to make them put a plan together that does something as flesh to that in a form that is recordable and enforceable. Thank you very much.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Bumbleburg. Mr. Bult that was a rather lengthy presentation do you want to try to respond to any or all of that or do you want to just hang on and listen to hear out anybody else whose got some objections?
Rob Bult stated, we’ll wait till the end.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Anybody else? Yes sir.
Mark Withey stated, Mark Withey. I do have just one question for Mr. Bult. You are going to put your structure below a 75’ wall…
Rob Bult stated, 60.
Mark Withey stated, well you said 75 in the presentation. Well whatever, the 60’ high wall. How many times are you going to extract to create that wall?
Rob Bult stated, the way the plant process works would be the first 2 years of operation it would be done with what they call a nonpermanent crushing unit.
President Stimmel stated, Mr. Bult, I’m sorry you need to come to the mic to respond to it. It just makes it hard to hear.
Rob Bult stated, yes. The first 2 years of operation we would be crushing material with a portable crushing operation.
Mark Withey stated, um hum.
Rob Bult stated, to develop that hole and then once we’ve reached that 60’ level and had the large enough are the permanent crushing plant which you saw the picture of would be installed.
Mark Withey stated, okay. Do you have any idea how big of area that might be?
Rob Bult stated, we’ve got a plant layout, draw it here for you. It’s a large file so it makes more sense. Now we can zoom out any specific area of the plant.
John Castleberry stated, John Castleberry, um, we’ll all have to get up and look close to the board to see the details.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
John Castleberry stated, but I’ll do the best I can here. The highway is this over here, this is our plant access, bermed road on the south property line coming into the plant area this will all be paved so it will be where the kilns are, where the load outs are, the truck traffic will come in turn, come back. All drainage will head towards the quarry itself and be collected in a sump down at the bottom, from that point it would be discharged into swales or infiltration in excess water will flow over to the settling pond. Um, this hot soil will be striped to approximately 40’ below surface at this point to get to top of bedrock. It ranges between 30 or 40’ there, so we’ll have stockpiles here for aggregate, um the kilns will extend over the ledge and go down to a 76’ depth, because the cooler that dangles below the kiln is about 40, 50’ high. Then the lime will be conveyed out up into the silos. The initial quarry development will be here except the lower ledge and the first deep pit will be at this point with progressive shallower striping to the top soil level, okay to the, this will still be native farm ground, topsoil striped to top of bedrock and the first ledge, the second, and the lower ledge. Planting will occur on each of these depending upon its quality it will be for kiln feed or it will have to be bypassed and put into other uses or aggregate until we get to the grade of quality that we need. We’re searching desperately for another type of rock and I brought these along as examples and I’ll leave them for the record. This is the overburdened core that we have encountered is okay for aggregate but really not suitable for lime manufacturer because we got under this ledge to get into what’s considered the actual reef rock which is quite different, much more pure and much higher in calcium and magnesium and lower in silica. It’s very important for our process because we don’t have silica in our rock because it won’t be suitable for sale that’s, and not all areas of this county has this quality of rock. It comes and goes. The existing Vulcan quarry is almost depleted. The existing Hansen quarry was tested and has problems but we found what we believe to be a very good deposit to sustain the development of the lime and it’s very unique to this county.
Mark Withey asked, what depth does this occur?
John Castleberry stated, it can start at 70’ and maybe go to, as deep as 200, 250, it comes and goes and I’ve been some places that are quarrying we’ve found that it’s more like the lower quality of rock so our pit though shown here in rectangles will actually be contoured more because we try and find the better zones. If you think of a 3 dimensional situation the reef that we’re chasing is sort snaking through the property and between a reef is a, what they call an inter reef zone of higher silica and that’s not suitable. What you have in your hand is what we think is the desirable stone. In fact the mining runoff will flow this direction. We have a retention pond over here for sediment clarification and the discharge line going to the north which will enter a wetland. We can’t quite show you that but it’s up there, prior to discharge into the Martin ditch. This is our estimated 10 year boundary and this is our estimated 20 year boundary. This is not to scale but on the other side of the property to the south is the Sills ditch and there’s an existing grain field that enters that ditch on our property as well. We don’t intend to use that, but it is an option. Here’s the wetland and the discharge from the Martin ditch to ours. Projected storm weather flow is that direction as it is today.
Mark Withey asked, the question that I ask to begin this whole process was in the 2 year period of time how big of a parameter are you expecting the pit to be?
John Castleberry stated, um, in 2 years? Probably, how many acres would you say Dave?
Dave Armbruster stated, approximately 6 acres.
John Castleberry stated, 6 acres. You’re thinking the site for the plant down to bedrock and opening up the initial crop of rock, exposing the rock and then we’ll start going down. The deeper the deposit the less aerial disturbance we’ll have so if we’re finding for our drilling in some cases it’s just over 200 we, we can go into a greater depth and disturb less surface. Over all we think this could be a 75 year, if you’ll have…
Mark Withey asked, right now your looking at all surface mining not…
John Castleberry stated, strictly.
Mark Withey asked, not underground?
John Castleberry stated, strictly.
Mark Withey stated, okay, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Withey. Charlie did you have something?
Charlie Mellon stated, no I think it’s time to move on.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right. Thank you gentlemen.
Linda Eckert stated, I have a picture of what the inside of this things going to look like. If anybody, you’ve got a very nice picture up here but you can take a look at a strip mine and see how wonderful it is to have in your area. It’s not a good picture. I can send you the web address if you want.
John Castleberry asked, may I make a comment to that?
President Stimmel stated, yes.
John Castleberry stated, we are not a strip mine as that may depict. What you see out there today is what we’ll be when we’re left. When you look at the Hansen site if you go up to Francesville if you look at Vulcan’s existing quarry that’s the way it will be and we will use reclamation principle and practices to leave it in an acceptable method.
President Stimmel asked, did you have anything else Mr. Bult.
Rob Bult stated, yes I’d like to submit the plan layout to you.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Anybody else want to give testimony? That’s fine. Hang on sir if you don’t mind. All right we’re fine.
Don Kolezar stated, I’m Don Kolezar and I represent the Economic Development Board. Connie Neininger who’s the Executive Director could not be here tonight so she asked the Board members to come and represent the Board in favor of this zoning request. It’s got the potential for good jobs from what she has said they have been very good to work with and she does recommend it. And that’s all I’ve got. Thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you very Mr. Kolezar. You sir?
Thomas Roth stated, my name is Thomas Roth. I’m a miner, I work at Vulcan Stone Quarry. The thing we need to understand is we have 2 stone quarries in White County. We have Hansen and Vulcan but we’re really talking about 4 stone quarry’s because there are also 2 in Francesville in Pulaski which are sister operations to the ones to White County. The understanding of the lime plant that wants to go in is if that they want lime. They want to make dolomite lime and they don’t care, they need a specific size of rock and the thing about limestone is when you, when you crush it you can’t just make one size rock you get all different kinds of rock. You get what they want all the way down to chips to power which is what they’re going to end up with and so what they’re going to do with the materials they can’t use is they’re going to flood the market at below cost, at below current sales for base which you build parking lots out of and so we’re looking at between all 4 quarries which most of the guys within the Monon quarries and the Francesville quarries reside in White County. We’re looking at half of our product sales being taken away from us because somebody just undercut our price so you’re looking at doing away with night shift, you’re looking at half, doing away with half the work force so you’re talking about gaining 30 jobs and loosing 60 to 80 jobs. I just think that needs a consideration.
President Stimmel stated, thank you very much Mr. Roth. Anybody else want to testify? Do you want to respond to the Mr. Bult?
Rob Bult stated, to open up a stone quarry and this does not ecru the price of the land but to strip it, to develop it, to construct a crushing operation you’re probably talking in the 8 million dollar range. We are spending 6 to 7 times that to construct this operation so again our intentions is not to sell the stone on the street. It uneconomical for us, uh, we’re mining to put the stone in the kiln. Now he was also incorrect with what he had said one size goes in the kiln. That is not correct. We have a top size of 2 ½” and we have a bottom size of ¼”. So everything from ¼” to a 2 ½” goes in the kiln.
President Stimmel asked, can you answer the question directly Mr. Bult about where that excess material will go and can it possible all be used for roads and the pit itself?
Rob Bult stated, a lot of it will be used internally for our infrastructure, uh some of it can be sold on the street. The county has expressed interest in it but I mean our objective is not to aggressively sell stone on the street.
President Stimmel stated, that might not be your objective but what will be the end result, I guess is what I’m trying to get at. How many tons could end up on the street?
Rob Bult stated, I think we have a rough calculation.
Dave Armbruster stated, I’m Dave Armbruster with Synergy Management, in charge of putting the project together. Roughly 15% of the stone that we process will come out as fines that’ll be a ¼” by 0 product. 50% of that product, the byproduct from that will be consumed, building ramps, roads, and things like that in our quarry.
Gerald Cartmell asked, so how many tons are we talking?
Dave Armbruster stated, the lime plant will need approximately 1.5 million tons of stone a year to produce 800 thousand tons of lime, after we’re into full production.
President Stimmel stated, I’m sorry again Mr. Armbruster but you might as well stay up there.
Dave Armbruster stated, okay, I can do that.
President Stimmel stated, the Board, you guys might as well say, because everybody’s had a chance to testify, the Board has had no questions yes and I think it’s time to give them an opportunity to quiz you a little bit.
Dave Armbruster stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, and so I’d open up to Jerry or Charlie or anybody who wants to take off.
Jerry Thompson asked, but your main product that you’re here to achieve, you will not be in competition with any other quarries, will you?
Dave Armbruster stated, it is not our intention to, our, the purpose of us developing this mine is to mine stone to provide a high quality feed stock to calcining in our rotary kilns. That is our primary purpose.
Thomas Roth asked, can I have a rebuttal on that real quick?
President Stimmel stated, sure.
Thomas Roth stated, all right we’re talking about…
President Stimmel stated, you might as well come to the microphone sir.
Thomas Roth stated, we’re talking about the 4 quarries in existence, like I said 2 in Monon, 2 in Francesville that are sister quarries. It affects all 4 of them. You’re talking about a total yearly production. I know we did 1.7 million ton last year. What did you guys do about 500 thousand? You’re talking 3 million, 3 ½ million ton easy. 50% of that goes to parking lots, just backfill. You know it’s, it’s a commercial grade. It can be used for anything and when they stand there and say they’re not going to have that product, you know that’s what’s been taking down the line, that whole thing, you know every time you have a lime plant they produce byproduct they can’t use especially the overburden which your going to have, most of the whole area has 80’ of it. You can’t use that in lime. You’re not going to build ramps out of that so they’re going to sell it. They have no choice, they have to stay profitable and it’s going to do away with half of our market.
President Stimmel stated, okay, thank you Mr. Roth. Can you wait just a minute sir just until we give the Board just a few minutes? I won’t forget you, I promise.
Jerry Thompson stated, I just have a comment. I do think we need some additional information.
Charlie Mellon stated, I do too.
Jerry Thompson stated, I think it’s the makings of a good thing but I do think we need some additional information.
Gerald Cartmell stated, too many things on that, on these papers we have here, there’s too many things that I’m out in left field on.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, I don’t, well, I’ll stick to what I said.
Charlie Mellon stated, I’d have to agree to that too, there’s too many things not given information to us, should be.
President Stimmel asked, Dave, you got anything? Okay you want to give that gentleman an opportunity to speak then?
Dave Scott stated, sure.
President Stimmel stated, yes sir, go ahead.
Mark Withey stated, I just…
President Stimmel stated, Mr. Withey.
Mark Withey stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay, thank you.
Mark Withey stated, I just, kind of a fast calculation on every 100 by 100’ section of rock 70’ deep, I know a little bit about mining, a little bit, your between 50 and 60 thousand ton of rock for each thousand square foot area and I’m not, I don’t know how many square feet are on an acre but I do know a 100 by 100 is not very big.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Mark Withey stated, now you’ve got nearly 60 thousand ton of rock there and the first 70’ off of this entire thing is going to go to aggregates it’s not going to go to lime and that’s not even mentioned.
President Stimmel stated, okay, thank you Mr. Withey. Go ahead Jerry.
Jerry Thompson stated, well I’ll just stick to what I said originally.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, therefore I think, uh this should be tabled until we, until we have a few more facts here in front of us, again I think it’s a good start but I don’t want to make a, I don’t want to vote on what we have here.
President Stimmel stated, okay, I don’t think it’s just my personal opinions, I don’t think it’s fair to table it unless we give the gentlemen, the applicants a detailed list of what we need, okay if we feel like they’re not accomplishing…
Jerry Thompson stated, true.
President Stimmel stated, there’s no sense in wasting anybody’s time with it, yes just jerking it around. Dave do you had something, I’m sorry.
Dave Scott stated, no, I was going to recommend that, that they get that detailed list of what Mr. Bumbleburg has and that address those questions.
President Stimmel asked, okay, do we want to entertain a motion then to table this?
Jerry Thompson stated, so moved.
Charlie Mellon stated, second.
President Stimmel asked, all in favor?
Board Members stated aye.
President Stimmel stated, it’s tabled. We’ll give you, we’ll get together and sometime Mr. Bult, with Diann and we’ll try, we will come up with a detailed list of the things that you need to supplement what you’ve already presented that will help everybody, I think get a better comfort level.
Rob Bult stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, and hopefully move the process along one way or another. Okay, thanks very much for your time.
Rob Bult stated, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, let’s move on the next variance. Then again we’ll give everybody time to clear out.
****
#2698 Sherman II & Deborah D. Moody; The property is located on .301 Acres Out SE Frax SE 16-28-3, located North of Lowes Bridge on the East side of the lake at 5941 E. Liberty Drive.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 29’ front setback variance to build a detached garage.
President Stimmel asked, and you are sir?
Butch Moody stated, I’m Butch Moody.
President Stimmel stated, thanks a lot.
Butch Moody stated, or Sherman or whatever you want to call me, I don’t go by the Sherman so…The reason I had to ask for the variance is because of the particular way that property is laid out and the elevation on the back side. I’m actually down under a hill. If you’ll notice the pictures on the right hand side of the, uh I took this first one from the lake looking up, uh the second one, on the left hand side there’s little umbrella stand sitting on a stump. That is the edge of this SFLECC line. That’s the 100 year flood plain right there on that, where that little thing is sitting and we built that retaining wall several years ago so where I’ve got the garage and everything is up above as you can see in the other pictures. Uh, the second picture on the left hand just shows from the top of the hill going down to the house how the elevation does drop towards the lake and then the little white garage here that’s left is what is going torn down and that part, that foundation is going to be used as part of the new one and I think the, you gave everyone the plans. On the other side there’s also a, an older survey which actually shows that this right here, this corner is at 662 and the flood plain level as designated in the letter at the top says that the flood that the flood area in that area is 655 so we’re, we’re in good shape up there but the topography of the land does slope down that way so there’s nowhere else on my property that I could put this garage and uh, that’s pretty much it. It shows on the application where I’m going to take the existing garage and use it as part of the one we’re going to build. Which is going to put me within about a foot of the SFLECC property, I did talk to the SFLECC and I believe they also, Diann gave a note to they had no objection to that.
Director Weaver sated, yes.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes, they got it.
Director Weaver stated, we do have a copy.
Butch Moody stated, the other setbacks on either side are in compliance so basically that’s pretty much all I have to say unless someone has a question.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Anybody in the audience want to oppose or…
Butch Moody stated, and basically this is what we’re building.
President Stimmel asked, does anybody in the audience want to oppose or speak in support of the variance? Okay. Gerald anything? Dave?
Dave Scott stated, I’m looking at an area map here and it appears there’s a house or a building or something back here. Is that living area there for somebody? Is that somebody’s home? It’d be to the west of your house.
Butch Moody stated, oh up here there’s a house that’s up on 800 but their back yard comes, that property goes down through here. You can see that a little better, it’s this house here. This is me.
Gerald Cartmell asked, is this what he’s seeing?
Butch Moody stated, there I guess is what you’re seeing.
Dave Scott stated, okay.
Butch Moody stated, which is this piece of property, maybe a little easier to see on this that I put on there. Here’s the lake and for some reason when that was done see a large, this is part of my front is actually belonging to the SFLECC.
Dave Scott stated, um hum.
Butch Moody stated, their house sit right here…
Dave Scott stated, okay.
Butch Moody stated, which faces 800 and they own this property coming down to the lake that way. One here and one here.
Gerald Cartmell stated, so it has to be this house right here.
Butch Moody stated, it’s that house there, its right here and…
Gerald Cartmell asked, this is what you're taking out right?
Butch Moody stated, no, let’s see, this is my old garage right there.
Several people are talking at once.
President Stimmel stated, you want to share that a little bit and get on the record.
Dave Scott asked, the neighbors aren’t in opposition of that?
Director Weaver stated, I haven’t received any letters from anyone, no.
Gerald Cartmell asked, do you have any bad neighbors?
Butch Moody stated, no. Matter of fact I sold both of them their house so they better not complain.
Gerald Cartmell asked, are you going to live here or are you going to sell this too?
Butch Moody stated, no I’m going to live there.
Gerald Cartmell stated, well maybe.
Butch Moody stated, maybe.
President Stimmel asked, Charlie anything?
Charlie Mellon stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, no. Ready to vote?
President Stimmel asked, ready to vote? Let’s vote.
Director Weaver asked, did you bring your sign back?
Butch Moody stated, no, I did not bring it back.
Director Weaver stated, okay.
Butch Moody stated, I don’t know if I could get it out of the ground.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 29’front setback variance to build a detached garage on that part of the Southeast Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section 16, Township 28 North, Range 3 West in Liberty Township, White County, Indiana described by:
Commencing at the Southeast corner of the above said Section 16; thence West along the section line 389.55 feet; thence North 83.16 feet to the point of beginning;
Thence North 59 degrees 11 minutes East 52.40 feet to the West line of Lot 11 in Forest Hills Addition; thence North 31 degrees 26 minutes 38 seconds West along said line 142.86 feet to the SFLECC line; thence along said line South 43 degrees 29 minutes West 54.60 feet and South 54 degrees 01 minute West 64.84 feet; thence South 15 degrees 00 minutes East 46.13 feet; thence South 83 degrees 44 minutes East 53.30 feet; thence South 69 degrees 18 minutes East 58.41 feet to the point of beginning, containing 0.301 of an Acre, more or less.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located South of Buffalo and East of State Road 39 at 5941 E. Liberty Drive.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Little stated, chairman by a vote of 5 – 0 the request is granted.
President Stimmel stated, the request is granted. You’ll have to get a building permit and bring your sign back, you’re in business.
Butch Moody stated, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Moody.
****
#2699 Christine A. Thayer; The property is located on 3.001 Acres, Pt 34-27-3 Tract C, located in the City of Monticello on the South side of East Ohio Street
Violation: None
Request: She is requesting a 7’ height variance to build a new home.
Jim Thayer stated, I’m not Chris Thayer, I’m Jim Thayer. Chris is my wife.
President Stimmel stated, okay, thanks a lot.
Jim Thayer stated, I’m the one petitioning. Uh, we’re planning on building a new home on our lot down on East Ohio Street and our architect has called for a 2 story house with a 12/12 pitch and that exceeds the County Ordinance of 30’. The house is designed to be built to 36’. We are requesting a 37 to give our contractor a little wiggle room.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jim Thayer stated, it is consistent with the houses that are in the area. This is a 3 acre lot. I honestly believe it won’t have an adverse affect on any of the neighbors. I…
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jim Thayer stated, I’m here to answer questions.
Charlie Mellon asked, is that on the north side of Ohio Street?
Jim Thayer stated, it would…
Charlie Mellon asked, the south side?
Jim Thayer stated, it would, its actually on the southeast side.
Charlie Mellon stated, I know it runs crooked. Southeast, okay, yes, down there, yes.
President Stimmel asked, Diann have you received anything?
Director Weaver stated, I have not.
President Stimmel asked, can you tell me Diann, is there any, are there any, can you tell me what the height is of the homes in the area, have there been any variances?
Director Weaver stated, I can not, I’m sorry.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right.
Jim Thayer stated, my builder Steve Downey indicated, I don’t have any written record that others have had variance for those in that, on Ohio Street.
President Stimmel stated, for those, okay. And the height in the new ordinance is?
Director Weaver stated, 35’, I believe, yes, in the new ordinance.
President Stimmel stated, in the new ordinance talks about…
Director Weaver stated, I didn’t know if you heard that part or not.
Charlie Mellon asked, no neighbors complained?
Director Weaver stated, I haven’t received anything.
Charlie Mellon stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson asked, Diann is there a reason you’ve got this included, is there something here we should be looking at.
Director Weaver stated, yes it’s presented as part of the application.
Jerry Thompson stated, oh okay, all right, you presented it. Okay, all right I thought maybe you…
Director Weaver stated, it is on our procedure that they present us a copy of the restrictive covenants.
Jerry Thompson stated, all right, I didn’t know, there was something in there you wanted to highlight or something, okay.
Director Weaver stated, no they just did what they were asked to do.
Jerry Thompson stated, all right.
President Stimmel stated, I did read through those covenants and I didn’t see any reference to height. Is there?
Jim Thayer stated, not to my knowledge, not in the covenants of the subdivision, no.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jim Thayer stated, we’re just bound by the 30’, um, ordinance here.
President Stimmel stated, right. Charlie anything you want to add?
Director Weaver stated, we do have a letter explaining their hardship, um, if you want to read that, but we have received that letter.
President Stimmel stated, let’s read it into the record to be consistent. The White County Area Plan Commission, White County Board of Zoning Appeals P.O. Box 851, Monticello, IN 47960, Dear Sire or Madam, I would like to request a Variance to the building height regulations on our “R-2” lot. I request a change from the regulated height of 30 ft. to 37 ft. on our lot at 1205 E. Ohio Street in Monticello, Indiana. This request is sought to prevent practical difficulties in constructing our proposed new home with plans for a two story 3,700 sq. ft. home with a 12-12 roof. Because the unique size of this lot is 3.1 acres and location of the proposed house is 120’ from the nearest property line this proposed variance will not violate the spirit of the ordinance and it would not have a negative impact on the adjoining property owners. I believe in granting this variance, that public safety would be secured and substantial justice would be done. Sincerely, James J. Thayer.
Director Weaver stated, there should the original in the file.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Dave anything?
Dave Scott stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, Gerald?
Gerald Cartmell asked, there not on city sewer, right?
Charlie Mellon stated, no.
Director Weaver stated, no, we have a copy of their septic approval.
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes, I seen that, I just…
Charlie Mellon stated, a few years off I think.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Everybody ready to vote?
Board Members stated, yes.
Director Weaver asked, did you bring your sign back?
Jim Thayer stated, I did not I’ll do that tomorrow morning.
Director Weaver stated, okay.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.
2. That the lot is a lot of record and properly divided.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit. The large lot makes this appropriate.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 7’ height variance to build a new home on Part of Section 34, Township 27 North, Range 3 West, Union Township, White County, Indiana, being a part of the land conveyed to H.J.H., Inc., as recorded in Deed Record 97-02-0856 in the Office of the Recorder for White County, Indiana (ORWCI) described as follows:
Commencing at concrete Monument No. 224 on the Indiana Hydro-Electric Power Company line (Deed Record 116, Page332, Parcel 107, ORWCI); thence the following three (3) courses along the said Hydro-Electric Company line; thence south 49° 45’ 14” West for 226.64 feet; thence South 48° 16’ 17” West for 8.49 feet to the POINT OF BEGINNING; thence South 48° 16’ 17” West for 385.03 feet; thence North 45° 37’ 56” West for 287.85 feet; thence North 32° 28’ 31” for 312.46 feet’ thence on a curve to the right for 62.21 feet (Internal Angle 17° 49’ 19”, Radius = 200.00 feet, Chord: North 41° 23’ 10” East, 61.96 feet); thence North50° 17’ 49” East for 16.60 feet; thence South 45° 37’ 56” East for 379.97 feet to the point of beginning, containing 3.001 acres, more or less.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: Property is located in the City of Monticello on the South side of East Ohio Street.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Little stated, once again Mr. Chairman the Board has approved the request by a vote of 5-0.
President Stimmel stated, thanks a lot Mr. Thayer. Your building permit should release.
Jim Thayer stated, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you sir.
****
#2700 John D. Cottrell ‘etal’; The property is located on Lot 39 in Headlee, located on the Southwest corner of 1000 North and Harrison Street.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 6’ rear setback variance and a 15’ front variance for a new home.
President Stimmel asked, and you are sir?
John Cottrell stated, John Cottrell.
President Stimmel stated, thank you sir. Anything you want to add Mr. Cottrell?
John Cottrell stated, no that’s about it.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Is this one that has 2 fronts Diann? Am I looking at that?
Director Weaver stated, it is on a corner lot, it does have 2 fronts and their meeting the front setback from CR 100 North and this request is for the, is it Harrison Street.
John Cottrell stated, Harrison Street.
Charlie Mellon stated, Harrison Street, yes.
Jerry Thompson asked, is this on going, or is this, he was here for something else recently wasn’t he?
Director Weaver stated, he has been here in the past yes.
John Cottrell stated, it was for my home and this is another home for my daughter.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay, all right.
Charlie Mellon stated, that lots wide open.
President Stimmel stated, yes.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes, it sure is.
Charlie Mellon stated, it’s a little higher than the one to the east.
John Cottrell stated, yes it is.
Director Weaver stated, he would have a setback approval before a building permit can be issued.
President Stimmel asked, anything else Gerald? Dave?
Dave Scott asked, no, I just, if there’s not room on his lot for septic could he be on another lot with part of his septic or just curious?
Director Weaver asked, we don’t regulate that, I believe that that lot, is that the one where your septic system is, the lot to the west of this?
John Cottrell stated, yes.
Director Weaver stated, yes.
President Stimmel asked, so there will be 2 residences sharing the same field is that what we’re saying?
John Cottrell stated, no, no. Um, we have room on the lot. I talked to Dan at the health department for the septic to go in with 2 90’ fingers.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver asked, can you give the Board some idea where those are going to go.
Gerald Cartmell stated, it’s on there, it’s on this drawing.
President Stimmel stated, oh it is. I’m just now seeing it.
Director Weaver stated, oh okay, okay.
President Stimmel stated, I didn’t even see it.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes, it’s on there.
Attorney Little stated, well I looked at it and I didn’t see it, I looked right through it.
President Stimmel stated, oh okay now I get you. Okay, Charlie anything else?
Charlie Mellon stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, ready to vote?
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, no I’m ready to vote.
President Stimmel asked, okay, ready to vote.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 6’ rear setback variance and a 15’ front setback variance for a new home on Lot Thirty Nine (39) in Block “F” in the town of Headlee, White County, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: Property is located in Headlee on the Southwest corner of C.R. 1000 North and Harrison Street.
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Little stated, Mr. Chairman I can report to you that the Board has approved the request by a vote 5 to 0.
President Stimmel stated, thank you sir. Now if you’ll just get a building permit you’re in business.
John Cottrell stated, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you sir.
****
#2701 Lakefront Enterprises LLC; The property is located on Lots 7, 8, and 9 in Amos Oak Crest Fourth Addition, located South of Lowes Bridge on the East side of West Shafer Drive, being 5313 N. West Shafer Drive.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a parking space variance to locate 15 parking spaces across West Shafer Drive on 1.63 acres for the existing restaurant.
President Stimmel asked, and you are ma’am?
Heidi Anderson stated, my name is Heidi Anderson.
President Stimmel stated, thanks, okay, Miss Anderson. Anything you want to add?
Heidi Anderson stated, yes there are 2 surveys, um that I have turned in. Even though we’re able to comply with the parking requirements by having the 15 spaces on the side of the, the restaurant, my purpose in asking for this variance is actually to increase the safety of the parking spaces in people pulling onto West Shafer Drive. By allowing this variance and the people to park on the resort side, no one would have to back onto West Shafer Drive and since we last spoke I have met with the highway county commissioner, or the County Highway Commissioner, sorry it’s been a long night.
Charlie Mellon stated, Steve.
Heidi Anderson stated, Steve, I met with him out at the property to discuss, um the 30 mile an hour speed limit that is out there and you know the safety concern and that type of thing. He did agree with me that the parking was safer on the Blue Door Cottages side of the road. Um, he didn’t feel that there was really enough traffic at all out there or it was a big enough issue for the County to put up and more signs that are existing um, so I asked if we would be able to, at our own expense put up more safety signage and um, flashing light that solar powered and maybe some temporary signage during the season to try to insure that people are following the law out there and going the 30 mile an hour speed limit. He said he had no problem with that at all. Anything that I proposed and I think there might be some photos of the signage that I had um, proposed but these are what I showed the Highway Commissioner and he said he would, that there was no problem with any of those things that I had showed him.
Director Weaver stated, Heidi did present a letter from Steve Brooke and you do have a copy of that. We had it at your place this evening.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Charlie anything you want to ask?
Charlie Mellon stated, no, not really.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Dave?
Dave Scott asked, you’re asking for additional parking spaces across the road from…
Charlie Mellon stated, the restaurant.
Heidi Anderson stated, the restaurant.
Dave Scott stated, from the restaurant.
Heidi Anderson stated, um hum, on the front parking lot on the resort side.
Dave Scott stated, okay, here, I didn’t have this, we got, I’m sure.
Heidi Anderson stated, okay, so it shows the 15 spots that we have on the restaurant side. Those comply with the regulation. I’m just asking for the…
Dave Scott stated, yes this is what I want. I, this is sidewalk, crosswalk that’s going to be painted on the road. Did he say that you could do that?
Heidi Anderson stated, um, that’s actually, we’ll put in like a concrete sidewalk. It’s kind of up a hill and some stairs so, it’s just to prevent people that would be crossing the street from having to stand where cars would be pulling in and out but it was something that would be constructed.
Dave Scott asked, even though he thought the signs were adequate, can we require that there be, uh, pedestrian cross walk signage?
Charlie Mellon stated, on the pavement.
Dave Scott stated, uh, both ways on West Shafer Drive.
President Stimmel stated, we can require that.
Heidi Anderson stated, um, I can, I talked to him about and to see if that was an option and that’s something we could do. He said that’s against the Ordinance because that’s not an intersection.
Charlie Mellon stated, hum.
Heidi Anderson stated, so we can’t put a painted cross walk on there but um…
Dave Scott asked, you’re not allowed to put warning signs up by the road?
Heidi Anderson stated, I can put all the warnings I want. That’s what he said I could put up pedestrian crossing I just can’t say cross walk on any of the signs but they can pedestrian crossing.
Dave Scott asked, but you have to do that?
Heidi Anderson stated, I do. He didn’t feel like it was necessary but we, um definitely want to keep everything want to keep everything out there as safe as possible so it something that we will be doing. Um, it’ll be seasonal signs for when we’re out there and then can remove them when it’s not in use.
Dave Scott asked, I guess can we use our attorney now? I’m going to put you on the spot.
Attorney Little asked, what’s your question?
Dave Scott asked, if somebody’s coming down the road and they hit somebody, uh, crossing, can the County or this Board or somebody would be held liable because we allowed this to…
Jerry Thompson asked, Bob do you have any pictures? Does he have pictures, Dave?
Attorney Little stated, I don’t know if I have pictures I’m looking.
Jerry Thompson stated, give him an understanding of what…
President Stimmel stated, this is the …
Jerry Thompson stated, here’s an aerial view.
Heidi Anderson stated, currently all of our resort guests cross the road all the time because they reach our boat docks over there. So whether or not the parking is allowed we still have people there crossing the road.
Charlie Mellon asked, all the people that live in those cottages are houses on the west side cross over to get into their boats and…
Heidi Anderson stated, to the boat docks, yes, it’s just summer rental…
Charlie Mellon stated, oh I know that.
Heidi Anderson stated, places though but yes they have to walk across the street because that’s where out boat docks and things are and I mean the speed limit is out there is 30 miles an hour, it’s not that busy of a road. We have, my 2 year old nephew, we always walk across the street with him. It really is not too big of deal.
Charlie Mellon stated, only in the summer when the beach is real strong…
Heidi Anderson stated, right.
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s when you have to watch.
Heidi Anderson stated, well we’re pretty far north and…
Dave Scott stated, I would like to see some signage put up both ways on the road that says pedestrian crossing or whatever he said you could, but I would like to have that as part of the variance so there required to have that.
Heidi Anderson stated, contingent upon that that’s fine because we intend…
Charlie Mellon stated, that’d be a good idea.
Dave Scott stated, to have those signs and maintain them.
President Stimmel stated, I have to tell you Miss Anderson that was, my biggest concern is just that, that some 10 year old run across the road and forgetting mom and dad and getting T-boned by…
Heidi Anderson stated, right.
President Stimmel stated, a guy after about 4 beers at the, you know, the Sandbar or something like this. You know honestly that is my biggest fear there is, there are visual obstructions there in a sense that there from the south north, there’s a little and curve and from the north south your coming after the restaurant or the corner stop up there, not what used to be close to Noffke’s corner there and down.
Heidi Anderson stated um hum.
President Stimmel stated, and I mean run from Low’s Bridge from down there, that 30 mile an hour doesn’t come close, I know, I’ve been there, I…
Heidi Anderson stated, right.
President Stimmel stated, you know I’ve watched it for years and it’s just a, it’s a hazardous location, it honestly is.
Heidi Anderson stated, and, I mean that was our concern as well and um, being that we’ve owned the property for 2 years and walked across the road many times, we felt like that was less of a hazard then someone backing out onto the road with somebody coming up at 55 miles behind.
President Stimmel stated, yes that’s true.
Heidi Anderson stated, if everybody obeyed the law out there it really wouldn’t be a problem and like the Commissioner, Highway Commissioner said it, there’s nothing within my power I can do to get everybody to drive 30 miles an hour but I can do the best I can to try to make the parking safer to pull out and to try to put up signs and the flashing lights and all of those things but even if the restaurant parking weren’t on that side of the road, like I said we have at any time 80 resort guests that do cross the street who go, so it’s our up most concern to make it as safe as possible.
President Stimmel asked, Miss Anderson have you researched the cost of doing that, I mean, you know installing something like that.
Heidi Anderson stated, yes, yes. Those signs you can order from many different companies. They’re about 300 dollars a piece.
President Stimmel stated, yes.
Heidi Anderson stated, and the lights, the solar powered lights on top of them are about a hundred and fifty.
President Stimmel stated, okay. They’re solar powered then, that’s what I was going to ask.
Heidi Anderson stated, yes. It runs on a solar panel that’s on top of them.
President Stimmel stated, okay, thanks.
Heidi Anderson stated, and the portable signs around 2 hundred dollars a piece and um, our intention of course is just, we don’t want anybody hurt.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Heidi Anderson stated, obviously it’s to reduce liability also but we really just genuinely don’t want anybody on the road hurt, anybody crossing the street hurt and short of giving tickets myself and pulling people over out there, there’s not much else I can do, so.
Charlie Mellon asked, are you still going to have the parking next to the restaurant, right up against the restaurant?
Heidi Anderson stated, um well we were going to kind of consult an attorney about that because if we say you have to park across the street and then somebody gets hit doing that or if they’re pulling out, we’re not sure if we can stipulate don’t park here only park here so that was something we were still…
Charlie Mellon stated, if you take that away the people walking across would have more view of something coming down the road then walking out between vehicles there on the east side.
Heidi Anderson stated, well you’ll notice where the building is and where our parking is on this side, um…
Charlie Mellon stated, yes, it’s…
Heidi Anderson stated, a lot of times in the past people have parked right in front of the building right there and almost right on the road on the right-of-way.
Charlie Mellon stated, right, right.
Heidi Anderson stated, um, if we do continue parking on that side of the street there’s a good 10’ to that fence, we plan on pushing all of those parking things back that 10’ so the cars can pull much farther off the road and potentially back without going onto the road also, so that’s something we’re working on and one of the things that is somewhat blocking the view of that hill coming down is the house to the north of us has a fence, that’s a privacy fence and it’s not in compliance with the code because it’s too close to the road and you can’t see through like, 50% of it so we were going to try to work with them possibly pay for part of a new fence for them to put up something like that too. To make that so then you could completely see what’s coming down.
President Stimmel stated, Dave you started to say something.
Dave Scott stated, yes I would like to, um, vote on this thing with a commitment that she brings back next meeting her signage plan, just so that we can approve that, I’m willing to vote on the variance now just if we have that…
Heidi Anderson stated, with the contingency.
Dave Scott stated, you know you, what your saying sounds all good but we need to have something on the record, I think.
Heidi Anderson stated, okay.
Dave Scott stated, that these signs be put up and maintained.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
President Stimmel asked, so would we entertain then a motion that would say that we want to have lighted signage indicating pedestrian walkway or something similar to that on the north and south bound traffic in both lanes, is that the way I’m understanding it? Is that what you’re getting at?
Dave Scott stated, right and, yes and, but is this, this thing will probably be open in the evenings too. I don’t know about, I mean…
Heidi Anderson stated, in the summer it stays light until about 10:00. The intention of the restaurant is to be open until about then.
President Stimmel asked, will the restaurant be open year round or just seasonal?
Heidi Anderson stated, well the plan is just seasonal.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Heidi Anderson stated, unless it makes sense to keep it open later then that.
Dave Scott stated, yes, to answer your question, uh, yes I want to see the signage plan.
Heidi Anderson stated, no problem, I could give you receipts for the signs, I mean my partner that you met is an attorney, her husband is. They’re very much aware of, you know the issues with this and we have every intention to make it as safe as possible. I can, like I said bring you receipts for the signage and a plan and everything that you need to make you comfortable with that.
Dave Scott stated, yes. Well I just need, I just want to see a plan in here so that it’s on the record.
President Stimmel asked, do you want to make a motion first or do you…
Gerald Cartmell stated, wait, I’ve got some more questions.
President Stimmel stated, go ahead, Gerald I’m sorry.
Gerald Cartmell asked, so you’re not going to park on the east side of the road at all then?
Heidi Anderson stated, no, I didn’t say it. We don’t know right now we want to consult with an attorney to see if we require parking on that side of the road, we’re unsure about that right now but I just wanted to make sure that if we decide to put all 15 parking spaces on that side of the road that it’s, two increase the safety that it’s allowable but I do want a little bit more legal advise on that before I for sure tell you there will be no parking on the lake side.
Gerald Cartmell stated, see that bothers me because your parking on the east side, it just restricts so much more vision, I think.
Charlie Mellon stated, oh yes, yes.
Heidi Anderson stated, but, okay, because…
Gerald Cartmell stated, I mean it’s congested, it’s a mess and it’s not your fault.
Jerry Thompson stated, but we’re just approving what’s on the west side aren’t we?
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes, but…
Heidi Anderson stated, we’re in compliance on the…
Gerald Cartmell stated, then she comes back and says well now we’re going to put it on the east side. She doesn’t say she can’t put it on the east side, she’s consulting her attorney.
Heidi Anderson stated, well I’m in compliance on the east side.
Jerry Thompson stated, we don’t have to approve that.
Heidi Anderson stated, I mean I could have the parking on the east side, I mean I have the land for it and I have the lots for it.
Gerald Cartmell stated, but I’m saying, but I’m saying if you’re going to put parking on the east side, I’m not going to let you do it on the other side because I don’t want that mess there. I’m just worried kids.
Heidi Anderson stated, okay.
Gerald Cartmell stated, and I understand, you know what you’re talking about.
Charlie Mellon stated, it’d be better to do away with the east side.
Heidi Anderson stated, if that’s you know the requirement I guess…
Charlie Mellon stated, well I mean to get your vote for the west side that’s one thing.
Heidi Anderson stated, but like I said I need a little bit more legal advice I think before I…
Dave Scott asked, how many spots does she need?
Heidi Anderson stated, 15.
Director Weaver stated, she needs, well you need 14, but you’ve requested 15.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes there’s 15 on here.
Gerald Cartmell stated, she’s got them on this side.
Heidi Anderson stated, 15.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Gerald Cartmell stated, and I guess the next question is so you say I’m not going to put up a parking lot, no parking on the east side. How many years down the road are you coming back to ask to build houses on there?
Charlie Mellon asked, on the west side?
Gerald Cartmell stated, like you originally started, no on the east side, like you originally started.
Charlie Mellon stated, there’s not room to build a house there.
Heidi Anderson stated, I mean we’ve abandoned those plans.
Gerald Cartmell asked, that party’s over, right?
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
Heidi Anderson stated, yes, I mean we abandoned those plans in order to comply with the parking on that side of the road so…
Charlie Mellon asked, would you be figuring on putting those signs on both sides of the road?
Heidi Anderson stated, yes, they will be on both sides of the road so you could see from both directions.
Charlie Mellon stated, well if you had cars parked on the east side no more room in there you’d be to my notion covering up part of the sign, maybe not.
Heidi Anderson stated, um, you guys might see in the photos, I mean these cars were there parked on the east side are well set back off of the roadway and I mean you could see if you’re walking across the street, cars really don’t block what’s coming that way. It really doesn’t.
Director Weaver asked, which photos are you referring to?
Heidi Anderson stated, the ones that you took, any photos of the property or…
Charlie Mellon stated, I saw cars parked there if you go right up against the building there square with the road but I’ve seen a lot of cars parked there on an angle.
Heidi Anderson stated, right, exactly and that’s what um, I have prevented by showing the parking compliance on the east side there would be no vehicle parking in front of the building right there with our compliance on the east side. We have enough land and space there for all the parking so they wouldn’t be in the road.
Charlie Mellon stated, oh, okay, okay.
Heidi Anderson stated, previously what you’ve seen there, those park, were people were parking were in the right-of-way of the road and as I’ve said we plan to push all those spaces back towards the fence so there’s a lot more room there.
Charlie Mellon stated, well if they park right west of the building on an angle, I think they do that so they can see down that road and not have to back out square on the road and, but if you’ve got parking beyond both sides of the building, not right in front of the building on the west side that would make a difference.
Heidi Anderson stated, and there is, like I said there is no parking in front of the building and again my purpose in asking for this variance is to prevent people from backing out onto that road and prevent parking over there basically so that’s what I’m asking for is really, and like I said the Highway Commissioner agreed, that he felt that was a safer place to park.
President Stimmel asked, any more questions?
Jerry Thompson stated, I’m ready to vote but I want Dave to make his motion.
President Stimmel stated, well that’s what…
Attorney Little stated, Dave asked me a question I didn’t answer it before. I wasn’t intending not to answer it.
Dave Scott asked, what is the answer to that question? He’ll just find out when he goes to court?
Attorney Little stated, anybody can sue you anytime for any reason I suppose whether there’s success or not is the problem and uh, you have a standard of care your supposed to follow in making any type of decision, uh I think a creative lawyer on the other side for the injured person could probably make an argument that it was your negligence in not approving it that allowed the car getting, backing out of the parking space to be hit by oncoming traffic and therefore that’s the problem. I think you run a risk of somebody complaining about your actions which every way you go, uh I think you should follow your standard of care when you decide this stuff as to whether or not the safety is protected. You use your reasonable care then you should have a defense to the claim being made.
Gerald Cartmell stated, well that helped.
Attorney Little asked, did it?
Gerald Cartmell stated, sure did.
President Stimmel stated, somebody’s cynical here.
Dave Scott stated, I’d like to make a commit, her to make a commitment to bring back her sign plan next meeting for our approval.
Heidi Anderson stated, absolutely.
Dave Scott stated, and then, or for this Boards approval.
President Stimmel asked, do you want to table it then Dave is that what you’re saying?
Dave Scott stated, no I think we should go ahead and vote on it so that she can…
Charlie Mellon stated, she can bring them back later.
Dave Scott stated, assume that if it passed she can go ahead.
President Stimmel stated, and I think we should probably put that in the form of a motion in the sense of trying to be specific about what those sign requirements so she knows what…
Heidi Anderson stated, marking it on the survey.
President Stimmel stated, yes.
Heidi Anderson stated, showing that the particular sign sizes, where they’ll be ordered from, I can get something from Mr. Brooks in writing that that’s approved.
Dave Scott stated, well that’s my suggestion that I was going to see him myself and ask him how should these signs be done and then he can get with you to make sure that that’s how it gets done.
President Stimmel asked, will they allow them, allow Miss Anderson to put these on the County right-of-way or do they have to stay on her property.
Dave Scott stated, I don’t know, I don’t know.
President Stimmel asked, did he indicate that?
Heidi Anderson stated, um, he actually said he was looking into, because we do have 2 pedestrian crossing signs right now. He was actually looking into the county getting more blinking light signs, or blinking lights above those 2 pedestrian crossings, there at the far corners of the property.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Heidi Anderson stated, but he said the additional signage, he didn’t have a problem with us putting up, he didn’t stipulate where it would have to be, um, necessarily but I could work with him on that but his sediment on this was that he didn’t think it was that big of an issue and that more signs, he didn’t feel like the County was necessary and I said I wanted to do it anyway so he said, he was fine with that.
President Stimmel stated, I have a question for Diann about the signs. On premise, off premise, this is not advertising, this is …
Gerald Cartmell stated, you can’t make them put a sign on the County right-of-way.
Director Weaver stated, normally this type of a sign is a government entity who installs them.
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes, right private sign I don’t think can be put on a County right-of-way.
Charlie Mellon stated, on their own property probably.
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes.
Director Weaver stated, well I think that’s something that Steve would know better than I would.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I remember reading that somewhere, but it’s for safety see and I don’t know whether that throws it out the window.
Dave Scott stated, well I think if she buys a standard highway sign that the county uses, if she paid for it the county probably even put it up and…
President Stimmel stated, I think they would too.
Dave Scott stated, and it wouldn’t actually be her sign, at that point.
President Stimmel stated, so it’d be permanent then.
Dave Scott stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, year round.
Dave Scott stated, I think so, year round, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Dave Scott stated, well…
President Stimmel stated, I’m asking because I’m wondering you know if this, is it detailed enough that we need to table it and I don’t want to delay you again Miss Anderson but I’m just saying that this is, this is why we have the dialog okay is to try to understand these things.
Director Weaver stated, I have 2 thoughts, um, 1, I think the idea that she had of Steve signing off on her plan I think is probably a great idea because he knows where those signs can be and if he can let them be in his right-of-way or not.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, secondly I thought maybe with what Charlie was discussing about parking next to the building maybe, just a thought if the spaces were marked, maybe that would be, you know, discourage people from parking where they should not park.
Charlie Mellon stated, no parking sign right against her building.
Heidi Anderson stated, oh we’re going to put up those like bumpers that go in front of your car.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
Heidi Anderson stated, so you know you pull in right there, that was the plan on either side of the road that the parking goes on so that there is no question and people aren’t, we don’t want people parking where they’re not supposed to park and right in front of the building where it’s not safe. We want them to know where to park so we had planned on putting those in as well.
Gerald Cartmell asked, what’s our attorney say? He’s thinking.
Attorney Little stated, well I didn’t think that was a legal question but uh,…
Gerald Cartmell stated, well I mean as far as whether we should table for more information or should we should go with it, you know.
Attorney Little stated, you’re kind of suggesting approving it but more is going to come later and that, it seems odd to me to do it that way as opposed to either amend it or…
Gerald Cartmell stated, now we heard that at the beginning of the meeting your not documented people.
Attorney Little stated, yes that’s there’s stuff that’s missing uh, but if we’re going to amend the request so that it was to have a certain variance with some of these other terms in there as part of it depending on what your amendment rules are which I don’t know right now, uh, that would be the only way that I would see that you would be safe to go ahead and deny it.
Heidi Anderson asked, would it be like a contingent approval, are those done, or….
President Stimmel stated, I think we could vote for it Miss Anderson with the, with a couple of stipulations.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes, I think so too.
President Stimmel stated, I mean I’m just trying to voice them. One of them is, is that there be the signage that we described.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, that there be the restriction of the parking on the west, on the east side to whatever limit somebody agrees that that would be either none or 2 or you know, something.
Heidi Anderson stated, uh huh.
President Stimmel stated, those are the 2 conditions I hearing expressed right now. Is that correct or now?
Attorney Little stated, yes.
President Stimmel asked do we want to try the petition like that, that those are the 2 covenants that she needs to adhere to, when we approve this?
Director Weaver stated, I have a question, if you make this contingent that she not have parking on the east side and she gets her, with her attorney and finds out that they should have parking on that side what’s that going to do to this request? Will she have to come back and refile? I think she would.
Dave Scott stated, well if she’s legal with her parking spots on the east side…
Charlie Mellon stated, on the west side.
Dave Scott stated, on the east side, we can’t stop her from putting her parking spots, can we?
Gerald Cartmell stated, I’m going to put no.
President Stimmel stated, the only thing we could do…
Gerald Cartmell stated, if she puts them on the east side because I think it’s too dangerous, there’s too many cars sitting there, too many if there’s kids around.
Director Weaver stated, you can stipulate that she cannot have parking on the east side.
President Stimmel stated, right, you really can, really.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I don’t want to do that but…
President Stimmel stated, I think we can.
Director Weaver stated, yes, you can.
President Stimmel stated, we could stipulate that and approve it but that’s one of the conditions.
Dave Scott stated, well see, now we’re back.
Director Weaver stated, that was my concern.
Dave Scott stated, we need to have the parking spots on the survey like they’re going to be.
Charlie Mellon stated, they’re on there.
Director Weaver stated, they are on there.
Dave Scott stated, okay so we’re either going to approve this or we’re not going to.
Charlie Mellon asked, which team?
Director Weaver stated, no there’s another survey for the west side of the road.
Dave Scott stated, right.
President Stimmel asked, the one with the parking spots on the west side is that the one we’re being asked to approve?
Heidi Anderson stated, yes.
Director Weaver stated, that’s the one you’re doing right now.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, right, see that’s what I thought.
Director Weaver stated, her next request is…
Heidi Anderson stated, the east side parking spaces are just to show that we’re in compliance with the parking currently.
President Stimmel stated, so help me understand this, am I getting this correct that really we are approving the parking spaces on the west side and then there is no approved parking on the east side?
Heidi Anderson stated, that’s not what I’m asking for because I don’t know if my attorney or legally if we can say you have to park on this side of the street and you cannot park on that side of the street and then somebody crossed the street and got injured.
President Stimmel stated, but I think Miss Anderson that’s what exactly is being said is that we’re approving those 15 spots. Those 15 spots are on the west side. That does not approve anything on the east side.
Charlie Mellon stated, uh huh.
Heidi Anderson stated, well it doesn’t disapprove anything on the east side. We have complied parking on the east side.
Director Weaver stated, but they can make it that way.
Heidi Anderson stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, this Board has the ability to restrict if they pass this on the west side of the road, you cannot have parking on the east side.
Heidi Anderson stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, I’m still, I’m still…
Director Weaver stated, which is going to affect your next request.
Jerry Thompson stated, I think we’re making it too complicated.
President Stimmel stated, I seem to think so too, Jerry. I’m getting confused about the fact that their only required to have 15 or 14 spots right?
Director Weaver stated, 14 spots.
Charlie Mellon stated, and they got the 15.
President Stimmel stated, she’s requesting a variance for 15 on the west side.
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s enough.
Director Weaver stated, she has voluntarily made it 15 instead of 14.
President Stimmel stated, make it 15 instead of 14 on the west side.
Director Weaver stated, on the west side.
President Stimmel stated, so that is her parking.
Charlie Mellon stated, forget about the east side.
Director Weaver stated, I’m going to complicate this more and I apologize but I think you need to see the whole picture to understand. She then has this next request which is going to be affected by this first variance because what ever you do with this first variance may affect how she presents to you this second request. Am I correct?
Heidi Anderson stated, you know more about this than I do.
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s the building on the east side you’re talking about.
Heidi Anderson stated, my next request is to bring an existing building into compliance, so I think there might be something tying these lots together with that.
Director Weaver stated, what I thought you might alter with the second request was the lots that were affected by that request.
Heidi Anderson stated, um hum, right.
Jerry Thompson stated, I think…
Heidi Anderson stated, if the only way the approvals going to get approved by taking away the parking on the east side and I don’t have that information yet, I mean then I don’t want the approval for the west side parking lot like I said I’m trying to make it safer but to, if that should happen and then something should fall on our shoulders and we’d be, you know our rights to have parking on that side of the road taken away that’s not my goal for this whole thing.
Gerald Cartmell stated, or I guess we could, might make me a little happier if she could park only on the east side and save worrying about the kids running across the street. That won’t bother me I’m worried about kids going across, I know the motel comes across but I ain’t worried about the motel, I’m worried about the restaurant.
Charlie Mellon stated, there isn’t room over there for 15, that’s the trouble on the east side.
Gerald Cartmell stated, the east side there’s enough for 16, it says.
Jerry Thompson stated, well yes, but…
Heidi Anderson stated, we have 16, we could have parking all the way down lot 4 there’s enough land there to do that. We could have many more parking spaces then that. But again my, my concern is the cars backing out on West Shafer Drive. That’s why I’m asking for that and it seem that the chance of an injury happening from that and a car coming to fast from there verses somebody walking across the road which is not the busy and you could really see is much less then having somebody try to back out onto that road. That was my goal.
Jerry Thompson stated, I think we need to vote on what she, the request is for and it’s for the 15 spots on the west side of the road and move on.
Charlie Mellon stated, and forget about the east side.
Attorney Little stated, I agree.
Charlie Mellon stated, if she wants more on the east she can come back.
Jerry Thompson stated, I think everybody’s concerns are good but this is what she’s asking for.
President Stimmel asked, all right, do you guys want to bring it to a vote or not or do you want any conditions?
Gerald Cartmell stated, what ever.
Charlie Mellon stated, let’s vote for the west side.
Director Weaver asked, Heidi you do understand that you have the right to table this also.
Heidi Anderson stated, yes, I’d just rather vote for it and…
President Stimmel stated, okay. Are we ready to vote?
Dave Scott stated, I, the only thing I’d like to put the commitment in there is that she put some kind of signage up.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes, that, we…
President Stimmel stated, yes, that’s a good point.
Dave Scott stated, pedestrian crossing, and I guess we don’t need to…
Heidi Anderson stated, that’s fine, sure contingent upon that.
President Stimmel stated, Make a recommendation Dave or make a motion if you will.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
Dave Scott stated, I’m going, I’m going to just make the recommendation or the, that there’s a commitment that she put some kind of a cross walk, pedestrian cross walk signage up and it has to be up the whole time the restaurant’s open.
Heidi Anderson stated, sure.
Director Weaver asked, do you want the plan brought back month is that still…
Dave Scott stated, I don’t know that we need to see the plan, she needs to work with the, I did at first but now I’m changing my mind, just so she has it, uh, it’s on the record that we said that we’re going to require that. If she doesn’t have them up there and there’s an accident then I think, I’m hoping we’re covered.
President Stimmel stated, okay, I agree.
Dave Scott stated, but just talking in circles a minute ago so I’m not sure.
President Stimmel asked, Dave can you restate it so that the girls can pick this up as a clear motion, okay.
Dave Scott stated, I want to vote on this contingent, no I’m going to put a commitment on here that says that she has to have some kind of a cross walk signage period while the business is open whether it be temporary, well period.
Attorney Little asked, both directions?
Dave Scott stated, right both directions.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
President Stimmel asked, okay do I hear a second?
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, second. It’s been moved and seconded. They have to require signage both directions when the restaurant’s opened. All in favor say aye.
Board Members stated, aye.
President Stimmel stated, okay, any other restrictions Dave? There was something else that was mentioned earlier, okay, all right. Ready to vote?
Board Members stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay we’re going to vote.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is currently zoned B-2, General Business.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit. Subject to the applicant presenting a commitment that during the entire time the restaurant is open this area will be appropriately signed warning pedestrians of the vehicular traffic at this cross walk.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is to locate 15 parking spaces across West Shafer Drive on 1.63 acres for the existing restaurant on Lots Numbered 7, 8, and 9 in Amos Oak Crest Fourth Addition, Monon Township, White County, Indiana, as per Plat thereof, recorded in Deed Record 135, Page 360, White County Recorder’s Office.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located South of Lowes Bridge on the East side of West Shafer Drive, being 5313 N. West Shafer Drive.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 2 negative. With a commitment that she provides a plan for signage in both directions to be up while the restaurant is open.
Attorney Little stated, I report Mr. Chairman that the request was approved by a vote of 3 to 2.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
****
#2692 Lakefront Enterprises, LLC; The property is located on Lots 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and part of 4 in Amos Oak Crest Fourth Addition, South of Lowes Bridge on the East side of West Shafer Drive, being 5313 N. West Shafer Drive.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 34' front setback variance and a 7' rear setback variance to bring the existing restaurant into compliance, a 4' rear setback variance to encroach 10' onto SFLECC's property to bring 2 unroofed decks into compliance.
President Stimmel asked, and Miss Anderson anything else you want to say about this one?
Heidi Anderson stated, it’s an existing building, I believe it was built in the late 40’s, early 50’s, been operating as a restaurant for 20 years or so I understand if not more. The steel structure that’s on the back side of the building was, it’s a nonconforming structure put in by the previous owner and so we’re just trying to bring it into compliance so that we can fix up the building a little bit. Make it a little nicer.
President Stimmel asked, Diann have we had on either one of these, any neighbors?
Director Weaver stated, no.
President Stimmel stated, okay. No body out there to talk? Board members?
Gerald Cartmell asked, your not building your just trying to get into compliance what’s already there right?
Heidi Anderson stated, exactly, we’re not expanding the building, nothing like that.
Gerald Cartmell asked, did we get a permission to encroach on the…
Heidi Anderson stated, they’ve given their consent.
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes but I don’t think we could do that, it’s stupid but.
Charlie Mellon stated, no just the City does it.
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes just the City.
Director Weaver stated, you can only grant a variance up to SFLECC’s property. She does have a consent to encroach for the rest of it. I do want to clarify one thing, um, one of the decks is complete and built, one is just framed up, it is not complete so there would need to be some construction done on that deck because it is not legal at this point.
Gerald Cartmell stated, the one to the south.
Director Weaver asked, that sounds right, is that right Heidi?
Heidi Anderson stated, yes it’s the 16 x 48 that’s to the south of the building right there.
President Stimmel asked, so has a permit been issued?
Charlie Mellon asked, it has frame work though right?
Heidi Anderson stated, it’s all a big steel structure, framework that’s already there.
Director Weaver stated, I cannot find any permits for the decks, um and I almost think that’s why it may not be complete is because they were stopped at one time.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, I can’t tell you that for sure.
Heidi Anderson stated, and that’s what the SFLECC said also is that that structure was put up by the previous owner without permits and therefore we went to them and asked them for the permission for that and we granted it and paid the fee.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Any discussion? Ready to vote?
Dave Scott stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, not really, Dave do you have anything?
Jerry Thompson stated, I don’t have anything, do you?
Charlie Mellon stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, Charlie?
Jerry Thompson asked, Charlie?
President Stimmel asked, you guys ready to vote?
Board Members stated, yes.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is currently zoned B-2, General Business.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit. SFLECC has granted consent to encroach for the improvements which are basically installed.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 34’ front setback variance and a 7’ rear setback variance to bring the existing restaurant into compliance, a 4’ rear setback variance to encroach 10’ onto SFLECC’s property to bring 2 unroofed decks into compliance on Lots Numbered 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and part of 4 in Amos Oak Crest Fourth Addition, Monon Township, White County, Indiana, as per Plat thereof, recorded in Deed Record 135, Page 360, White County Recorder’s Office.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located South of Lowes Bridge on the East side of West Shafer Drive, being 5313 N. West Shafer Drive.
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Little stated, this time Mr. Chairman, I can report that the Board has approved the request by a vote of 5 to 0.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Heidi Anderson stated, thank you. Appreciate it very much, thank you.
****
President Stimmel stated, thank you. Okay other business. Number A, did everybody get their assigned reading done, citizens planner guide to…
Gerald Cartmell stated, I must of read about 3 times I think and got half way through it.
Charlie Mellon stated, I’m sorry.
Jerry Thompson stated, Dave its late is…
President Stimmel stated, I just want to say I prefaced the fact that I asked Diann to print out all those things to send them to everybody because there’s good stuff in it and I just know that everybody would have the opportunity, it was just this new information, read it, try to digest a little bit, give us a chance, if we’ve got some suggestions or you have some suggestions about how we may want to change things or procedures or things we want to look at. There’s just some opportunities to learn.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I have one thing, I noticed on your, wait which one did we talk about?
President Stimmel stated, it says the planning guide.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I’m going on the rules.
President Stimmel stated, that’s all right.
Gerald Cartmell stated, that’s all right, go ahead.
President Stimmel stated, that’s all right, so I just wanted to talk to that just a minute, so staff reports and recommendations the other thing after looking at Mr. Bumbleburg’s minutes of the last, he said I think everybody has a copy of that too. One of the things that struck me about that was and let me give you the history of what Joe has told me and that is that the Area Plan for the Tippecanoe County does request that the recommendation by the Area Plan Director however the City of Lafayette which is a municipal plan agency does not in fact we said they called it Reilly’s rule and that is that they Reilly said I don’t want any Area Plan woman or man or somebody giving us recommendations on how to, you know how to do. So that’s why they’re different. They just, they’ve always done that. But the only reason I brought it up is because here again I kind of like the sound of it. I saw, in some of the other things that I’ve seen, it is recommended the Area Plan Director does give a recommendation. They have first hand knowledge of these, they can be specific about what it is, if the criteria and the hurdles are going back further.
Dave Scott asked, is ii just recommendation or does she have to dialog?
President Stimmel stated, I think she needs to give, my impression is that she needs to give dialog explaining why she’s recommending it. Okay, and I’ve told Diann, I’m not trying to add work to what she’s doing, that’s not it here but I think there’s some value in that and I just wanted to discuss that and just see if you guys, what you guys thought.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I don’t have a problem with that at all. I mean she sits back there and throws little things at us anyhow, why not have her, you know she knows all about it so her input surely can’t hurt.
President Stimmel asked, you read that same stuff Diann, how would it affect you being able to do something like that, seriously.
Gerald Cartmell stated, it doesn’t mean we’re going to rule that way but…
Jerry Thompson stated, that’s time consuming, it’s good but it’s time consuming.
Director Weaver stated, I think the difficult part is going to be the time.
President Stimmel stated, the time.
Director Weaver stated, especially in the summer time when you guys have got 2 meetings it’s about all we can do to keep up then.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
Director Weaver stated, that’s my big concern.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, not that we don’t want to do it but…
President Stimmel stated, no I know, I understand.
Director Weaver stated, but it might be just a matter of changing how we go about doing, you know I mean…
President Stimmel stated, well I think if we do it I think we probably want to be consistent and, and it becomes part of the public record I think who wants to, you know the specifics of why your recommending one way or the other. That’s okay, it really is you guys just want to forget about that for now that’s fine.
Jerry Thompson stated, well…
Charlie Mellon stated, I think we out to get Dave and Diann doing a good job here in this county you ought to read what’s in the paper about Carroll County. They’re director is resigning and 2 of the 5 members…
President Stimmel stated, oh really.
Charlie Mellon stated, is quitting and the attorney’s wanting to quit, Manahan.
President Stimmel asked, on the BZA or Area Plan Charlie, or…
Charlie Mellon stated, and a, beg your pardon?
President Stimmel asked, on the BZA or Area Plan or both or what…
Charlie Mellon stated, well both of them, the Director’s couldn’t go with both of them.
Director Weaver stated, yes the director’s both of them but I didn’t know about the Board Members.
Several Board Members are talking at once.
Charlie Mellon stated, it’s the Board Members not the Area Plan members it’s a, they got that there Dairy business down there that’s been going for too long.
President Stimmel asked, now this is in Carroll County or Benton County?
Charlie Mellon stated, Carroll County.
President Stimmel stated, Carroll County.
Charlie Mellon stated, well Benton County’s got something worse too, livestock.
Gerald Cartmell stated, trying to put pigs in.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes, they’ve sure postponed, tabled that enough time.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right, well…
Jerry Thompson stated, Diann, I mean, if you do that I mean like you say during our summer months when we really have a lot of variances and Bob has more months then not we have 2 meetings a month because our policy is if it exceeds over 10 variances it just makes too much of a meeting. Are looking at, is this going to mean maybe hiring another for the office?
Director Weaver stated, well it’s probably going to mean shifting the way things are done. Right now I prepare the analysis of your staff report, it maybe, you know it may have to change that, throw that responsibility on one of the girls or you know the 2 of us together do it or and it depends on how much detail you want, you know if your asking you know do you want me to cover 10 items or do you want me to cover 2 items or you know that’s going to make a big difference too.
President Stimmel stated, let me make a suggestion and it’s strictly a suggestion, let’s just say for example for next month, what if we did just kind of a dry run, in other words make it not part of the permanent record but just something to discuss then again after all the variances put together don’t make it a part of the packet except for as business and discuss the potential recommendation, I don’t know how you want to do that and see how you can, see how it flows for you, see how it may or may not work. Would that be a possibility? And we can just, you know we can just beat it around further after that. It’s just a thought that’s all. That way you're not, you know, I guess that way you're not committed to March’s meeting, you’ve got to come up with these recommendations and all this explanation. It would give us a chance then to look at the explanations and the recommendations and talk about how that relates to how we ended up voting.
Dave Scott stated, and then maybe you can just have her put her recommendation on there and then if she’s seen something that she thought was pertinent to what was going on she could just make a note of it instead of on every one saying well this is what their hardship is and this, I think this, or this, that, or the other. But if there’s something that really sticks out that you think we should know, if you just want to say, uh, I recommend we approve it and you don’t need to put anything on there but if you think that there’s something that we should know maybe you should say I disapprove it or I approve it and this is why. Maybe, because all of them probably doesn’t need…
Charlie Mellon stated, more versed on that kind of stuff then we are sitting out here too.
Dave Scott stated, but it’s not a bad idea to do a trial run.
President Stimmel asked, what do you think Jerry?
Director Weaver stated, I think that would help us know what areas to cover.
Jerry Thompson stated, I was going to jump ship, I was going to bring up something else.
President Stimmel stated, oh okay, all right.
Jerry Thompson stated, I just wish there was you could abbreviate our minutes, 61 pages of minutes now, 2 sides, both sides of the paper. There’s a lot of work here.
Charlie Mellon stated, well there were 94 awhile back.
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes.
Jerry Thompson stated, a lot of work
President Stimmel stated, let me tell you what, we had this discussion last month, the discussion was about Joe Bumbleburg and how they record the minutes of Tippecanoe County BZA and they actually do record them and what they have a girl do is go through there basically and summarize them, she does not type them up verbatim. She merely summarizes the discussions, that’s what she does. She listens to the whole tape, that’s part of the record, the tape is that she’s, you know, she does the whole thing.
Jerry Thompson stated, well I think that’s great.
President Stimmel stated, now Jerry Altman thinks that well if you’re going to do that you might as well type up the whole thing but my god, I mean I would think you could condense 90 pages into maybe 10.
Attorney Little stated, that’s an awful long, those aren’t minutes that’s a transcript of what…
Jerry Thompson stated, your right, your right Bob.
President Stimmel asked, what about something like that Bob I mean is my understanding there’s no law requiring a transcript, it only says that there has to be minutes and those minutes, I guess what I’m concerned about is do the tape recordings that we do during this meeting, are they part of the permanent record, those recordings themselves?
Attorney Little stated, I couldn’t tell you, answer that. I would assume that that’s the case and I would assume that they need to be maintained so that whatever the appeal time is for someone to request a transcript and that somebody could request a transcript or…
President Stimmel stated, a transcript, okay.
Attorney Little stated, for whatever the next appeal level is.
Dave Scott asked, do you keep the actual tape?
Director Weaver stated, we keep the tape, um hum yes.
Attorney Little stated, I don’t know how long you have to keep them or should have to keep them that would take…
Director Weaver stated, and I don’t know that answer either.
Attorney Little stated, I never throw anything away so that’s the difference.
Director Weaver stated, well we have, we have lots of boxes of tapes.
President Stimmel stated, everybody gets scared.
Director Weaver stated, um, from my standpoint of it, I know it’s a lot of work but there’s been time when we’ve gone back to the minutes and found things that have backed up what we’ve told people and you know and when you summarize you don’t get all those details like you do with this and you know…
President Stimmel stated, I’m not trying to get into managing your office but how many hours do they spend making up a transcript of 80 or 90 pages, 60, 70?
Director Weaver stated, Michelle had a meeting on the 12th no the 11th so that was 10 days ago and she’s still working, now that’s not strictly what, she is still working.
Jerry Thompson stated, well just, just…
President Stimmel stated, give me an estimate….
Several Board members are talking at once.
Director Weaver stated, 2 weeks.
President Stimmel stated, 2 weeks, 80 hours. 80 hours of work time.
Director Weaver stated, of work time but that incorporates other duties.
President Stimmel stated, interruptions and…
Jerry Thompson stated, yes, but still it’s the biggest share of that time.
Director Weaver stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, jeeze-o-pete.
Director Weaver stated, but that’s, I mean that’s what those girls are in there to do…
Jerry Thompson asked, do you have that kind of minutes from the other Board, that many pages after a meeting?
President Stimmel asked, do you guys transcribe those?
Dave Scott stated, oh yes.
President Stimmel asked, you do?
Jerry Thompson asked, do you run into 50…
Dave Scott stated, no the Area Plan.
Charlie Mellon stated, Area Plan.
Director Weaver stated, oh the Area Plan, oh yes.
Jerry Thompson asked, 50, 60 pages there too?
Director Weaver stated, yes, that’s what Michelle’s working on now is the APC meeting from the 11th.
Gerald Cartmell stated, and you’ve got umpteen people out here too on that, I’m sure it has to be tough.
President Stimmel stated, there again the only reason I’m bringing these kind of things up is, is not to make a decision tonight but just to generate some discussion and get you guys, all of us thinking about this and trying to get some input, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, my whole point is if we ask Diann to start doing the other then we’ve got to shorten this other end up.
Director Weaver stated, well but I don’t, I don’t deal with the minutes.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Director Weaver stated, I don’t do those minutes.
Jerry Thompson stated, but the office does.
Director Weaver stated, my girls do the minutes.
Jerry Thompson stated, well I just look at the whole…
Gerald Cartmell stated, but you may want to ask one of the girls to help you do what were…
Attorney Little stated, it you do the minutes the way it’s being suggested you might have to do more because you’d be the one that has to shorten the 90 pages down to 5 pages, or 10, or somebody has to make an intelligent decision to report what was said and to preface the substance of it.
Charlie Mellon stated, then you’d have to amend what you have.
Jerry Thompson stated, but then we’ve got the tape.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
Dave Scott stated, if you have to keep the tape, I don’t know what the point is writing it word for word.
Director Weaver stated, well the one thing that, now I mentioned this Eric who is the computer person here in the building has told us that there is a computer system that should be able to transcribe these minutes by voice.
President Stimmel stated, voice recognition.
Director Weaver stated, and what we’ve determined what the girls would have to do is they would listen to it and then they would speak into the mic because we have to many voices going on so they would do the one voice, they would repeat it but it would, it would be much quicker.
President Stimmel stated, yes.
Director Weaver stated, much quicker and we could still have the transcribed minutes.
President Stimmel stated, all right, I don’t want to delay but I’m just trying to get some dialog. Maybe we can make some decisions next talk, something. Jerry, you wanted to switch gears, what was it.
Jerry Thompson stated, no just the minutes.
President Stimmel stated, that was it okay, okay. And the rules and procedures for the BZA meeting and really I did was I put together, you know I read several things and I just threw together that and then I read them tonight and I couldn’t even stick with them when I had them in front of me, I really couldn’t do it. That’s how lousy I am about that.
Jerry Thompson stated, it’s easy, it’s easy.
President Stimmel stated, I swear to god.
Director Weaver stated, you get wrapped up in what’s going on.
Jerry Thompson stated, you bet.
President Stimmel stated, I got to thinking about it and I just, I stumbled on things and I couldn’t thing about who I…
Jerry Thompson stated, you’re doing just fine.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I wondered if we shouldn’t, and I know Tippecanoe kind of has this and it’s not fair to everybody but maybe it is, you get up there and you present your thing and you’ve got 10 minutes and your done.
President Stimmel stated, I know…
Gerald Cartmell stated, and then the next guy comes up, got the same thing and then if you need a rebuttal sure you can have a couple of minutes but they get to rambling on.
Director Weaver stated, well but that plan discusses that somewhat too. That there’s pro’s and con’s to that.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I know there is but…
Charlie Mellon stated, we’re going to have another long minute process with that mining outfit, again and them 2 guys right there has heard that same story twice already.
President Stimmel stated, but we don’t need a …
Charlie Mellon asked, well no, the Area Plan.
President Stimmel stated, we’re not going to do the whole thing again, we’ll assume that those, what they’ve reported is already in the minutes. We’re not going to and I think we’ll do the same thing we did on the transfer station in the sense that the evidence is all ready been submitted there’s no sense repeating it again meeting, after meeting after meeting, that’s just not, we’re going to try to persuade them.
Dave Scott stated, because all of the members were here.
President Stimmel stated, they were all here and we’re going to have a list of who those people and what their testimony was so there no sense…
Charlie Mellon stated, it’s going to take time to get rid of those 30 things on that one sheet of paper that Bumbleburg gave and the other one too, that’s going to take a long time to go through them.
President Stimmel stated, well that was one of the things that I wanted to bring up at the end here and, and we’ll skip back to the other thing but and I think we owe those guys from that dolomitic lime plant the fact that we don’t get together a quorum but we at least get a couple members of the Board and Diann together at some point in time and line item the things that we need to satisfy all the points that Joe made because I mean I think Joe not only was he representing his client but I don’t think, I think most of us probably read into that he was giving us some good advice and…
Director Weaver stated, he was.
Several Board Members are talking at once.
Jerry Thompson stated, that’s right.
President Stimmel stated, he was trying to do the right thing and he was trying to do the right thing for his client.
Jerry Thompson stated, that’s right.
Charlie Mellon stated, protect us in the future.
President Stimmel stated, I think he really, I, you know, I hate to read into that but he can be intimidating sob too.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes, I agree.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I’d rather be on his side.
President Stimmel stated, but I guess what I’m saying is that if, if a couple of us need to commit the time I think to do this I think it’d be, we need to help Diann do that and there again an afternoon, or morning or something like this spend a couple or 3 hours and see if we can do that.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, we owe that to them.
Dave Scott stated, I think so too.
President Stimmel stated, I’m not comfortable doing it some other way. So who wants to volunteer besides me?
Dave Scott asked, you looking at me?
President Stimmel stated, I don’t care who.
Dave Scott stated, I’m already on the Area Plan.
President Stimmel stated, I know.
Dave Scott stated, I’ll do it.
President Stimmel stated, that’s the other reason…
Dave Scott stated, or maybe one of the other fellows wants to, I don’t care.
Gerald Cartmell stated, it sounds to me like your going to be good. I’ll be the alternate if something happens.
President Stimmel stated, all right, is that all right with you guys?
Board Members stated, yes.
Gerald Cartmell stated, Jerry should be there he’s been on here a long time.
Director Weaver asked, now wait your going to be an alternate so it’s just going to be Dave and I?
Dave Scott stated, and Dave.
Director Weaver stated, okay, I didn’t hear Dave.
Jerry Thompson asked, so are you saying seniority rules?
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay then I think Dave ought to and then I think…
President Stimmel asked, now what was the other thing, oh yes. These things, you guys, I don’t want to, I don’t want to come next month and not get any input on this, I’m not even sure what I want to do with this other then the fact that I want to, like I said I couldn’t follow it myself but I would like to, to you know I called Jerry, I tried to get everybody’s input and help me out with some of the things that I may of missed that we need to make a point of at every meeting. I got to tell you I got tired of talking, number 1 and number 2, I think I, I think I got the point across because nobody said a word for about 15 minutes out there so I think, you know I’m not sure that’s a good thing, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, because when we’re kind of running a little bit looser, you know the people tend to want to speak up.
Dave Scott stated, I personally thought you handled it really well because I think you defused the situation before it ever got started and…
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
Dave Scott stated, I think this is very good because some day you or Jerry’s not going to be here and one of us is going to have to do it and we’re not used to it.
Gerald Cartmell stated, oh, meaning this guy right here.
Jerry Thompson stated, that’s right.
Gerald Cartmell stated, meaning him.
Jerry Thompson stated, really, really.
Director Weaver stated, I have a thought.
Dave Scott stated, okay.
Director Weaver asked, what if we put um, at least the expected conduct part, what if we put that on the back of the agenda?
President Stimmel stated, oh I think that’s great.
Jerry Thompson stated, doesn’t hurt a thing.
Gerald Cartmell stated, and as long as we have the police officer here we’re fine but we know what it is when they’re not here.
Director Weaver stated, yes, but he’s been real good about being here.
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes, as long as we have our police officer and our attorney, I’m pretty comfortable with it.
Jerry Thompson stated, well ever since you pointed that out Dave at the beginning of the meeting it’s helped quite a bit.
Dave Scott stated, yes.
Jerry Thompson stated, it has because we had prior to that we had some meetings where people just about to the point to you couldn’t breathe without…
Attorney Little stated, I thought everyone is going out for coffee afterwards the way they got along tonight it’s pretty tame.
President Stimmel stated, it really was pretty tame.
Jerry Thompson stated, really for what we had.
President Stimmel stated, the Eckert lady was pretty upset but.
Gerald Cartmell stated, the lady was a little upset which she has a right to be.
President Stimmel stated, but she did overall, she did pretty good.
Jerry Thompson stated, I think that’s kind of her personality there.
Attorney Little stated, she was upset to maintain her emotions.
Dave Scott stated, yes, she wasn’t that nice to me this morning I’ll tell you that.
President Stimmel stated, that’s what Dave said, he said she chewed him out pretty good.
Director Weaver stated, really.
Gerald Cartmell asked, because you approved it on the Area Plan or what?
Dave Scott stated, yes, she’s…
Charlie Mellon stated, she was set up like that with the ethanol plant in Reynolds too.
Director Weaver stated, but really couldn’t he have just simply just put the end to that and said I’m sorry you really cannot have any contact with me.
President Stimmel stated, yes.
Gerald Cartmell stated, no, Dave’s not that kind of guy.
****
The meeting adjourned.
Respectfully submitted,
David Scott, Secretary
Diann Weaver, Director
White County Area Plan Commission
Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________
“I AFFIRM, UNDER THE PENALTIES FOR PERJURY, THAT I HAVE TAKEN REASONABLE CARE TO REDACT EACH SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER IN THIS DOCUMENT, UNLESS REQUIRED BY LAW.”
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