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The White County Board of Zoning Appeals met on Thursday, March 25, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.
Members attending were: Gerald Cartmell, David Scott, Charles Mellon, Jerry Thompson and David Stimmel. Also attending were Attorney Jerry Altman and Director Diann Weaver.
Visitors attending were: Bryan Rinker, Don Whitlow, Richard “Dick” Wiley, Linda Eckert, Nina Jacoby, Connie Linback, Larry Linback, Joe Bumbleburg, Tom Rarick, John Cottrell, Robert Cottrell, Robert Jones, Howard L. Pugh, Marvin Eisele, Shawn Cain, Connie Neininger, Dave Armbruster, John Castleberry, Kathy Moore, Jennifer Andres, Ken Kersey, Paul Dubenetzkey, Rob Bult, Rosemary Cooley, ??, Dale E. Griffin, Rick McGhresh, W.L. Connaway, Alan Cernick, Tim Brown, Susie Ezra, Bob Ezra, Joe Williams, Fred Mosher, Eric Mosher, Steve Berdan, Steve Meyer, Paul Mosher, Charles E. Ward, Chuck E. Weaver, Delos Pass, Gene Austin, Jim White, Marilyn Fulkerson, Doug Taylor, Ned Fulkerson, Fran Clark, Aleta Clark, Kevin Murphy, Jim Clark, Harold Harvey, Phyllis J. Onken, Virginia Spencer and Ben Woodhouse (Deputy).
The meeting was called to order by President David Stimmel and roll call was taken. Charlie Mellon made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the February 21, 2008 meeting. Motion was seconded by and carried unanimously. Attorney Altman swore in all Board members and audience members.
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#2702 Robert L. & Stephanie J. Cottrell; The property is located on Lots 37 & 38, in the Original Plat of the town of Headlee at 9985 N. Harrison Street.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 13’ front setback variance from Harrison Street to build a new home on the property.
President Stimmel asked, and you are sir?
Robert Cottrell stated, Robert Cottrell.
President Stimmel stated, do you realize Mr. Cottrell all these people are here against your variance?
Board Members and Audience Members laughed.
President Stimmel asked, is there anything you want to add Mr. Cottrell to this?
Robert Cottrell stated, uh no.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Board, just hang loose guys so everybody takes a look at what we’ve got, have some questions.
Jerry Thompson stated, I think you have a document there that ought to be entered on the record first of all.
President Stimmel asked, what’s that Jerry, I’m sorry?
Jerry Thompson stated, we have a note from Mr. Cottrell I think ought to be entered on the record.
President Stimmel stated, oh okay, all right. Does he state a hardship? Okay.
Attorney Altman read, I, Robert Cottrell ask for approval of a variance to have a modular home placed on my property for my 2 children and wife. I currently live in a mobile home that isn’t in the best of shape and my family has out grown it. I would like better living conditions for my family and to make my community look better. Robert Cottrell 2-18-8.
President Stimmel stated, okay thanks Jerry. Do we have any mail on this one?
Director Weaver stated, no we have not received anything.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Attorney Altman asked, there will only be one home on this lot, right?
Robert Cottrell stated, correct.
Attorney Altman asked, and it’s a new modular?
President Stimmel stated, and the reason for the setback really and actuality is the fact that you have 3 front yards, right?
Robert Cottrell asked, excuse me?
President Stimmel asked, you actually have 3 front yards, that’s the reason for the setback? Any questions? Gerald?
Gerald Cartmell stated, well we see you’re trusted. I answered my own question, I see who did it.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I see why his kids on there.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Dave?
Dave Scott stated, I don’t have anything.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, you might want to check to see if anyone else is here in favor or against it possibly.
President Stimmel stated, that’s a good idea. Anybody else here in favor or against this variance? Show of hands, okay. Charlie?
Charlie Mellon stated, well I think we approved a house he put in on a lot adjoining this about a month or two ago, didn’t we?
President Stimmel stated, yes.
Director Weaver stated, yes, it was actually across from it, across Harrison Street, yes.
Charlie Mellon stated, and I was out there and I saw that the lot was a great big lot. It looks like there’s plenty of room and I said something about the septic tank is going to be for both of those houses or not?
Robert Cottrell stated, no.
Director Weaver stated, no.
Charlie Mellon stated, no, okay.
Robert Cottrell stated, I’m having a new septic put it.
Charlie Mellon stated, okay, that was brought up now something was using more than one was maybe using the one that we approved before, something to that affect so, okay that’s fine. That’s all I have.
President Stimmel stated, okay, ready to vote?
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, let’s vote.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit, similar to the lot across the street with two roads but little traffic.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 13’ front setback variance from Harrison Street and a 3’ front setback variance from Pennsylvania Street to build a new home on the property. The existing mobile home, carport and shed will be removed on Lots Thirty Seven (37) and Thirty Eight (38) in Block “F” in the Original Plat of the Town of Headlee, White County, Indiana.
Common Description: Property is located in the town of Headlee at 9985 N. Harrison Street
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Altman stated, announcing the results of the vote on petition #2702, there were 5 votes cast, 5 votes vote that the petition is hereby granted. You need to get a building permit before you proceed, okay.
Robert Cottrell stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Cottrell.
Attorney Altman stated, you do that by going and seeing Diann, okay.
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#2703 Habitat for Humanity of Lafayette, Inc.; The property is located on Lot 4 in Block I in Original Plat of the Town of Wolcott, at 307 W. Scott Street.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 16’ front (Fourth St.) setback variance to build a new home.
President Stimmel asked, and you are sir?
Doug Taylor stated, I am Doug Taylor, I am the Executive Director of Habitat of Lafayette.
President Stimmel stated, thank you. And we have something that says that Mr. Taylor, how does that work in this situation?
Director Weaver stated, I don’t believe we do have anything.
President Stimmel asked, do we need anything Jerry?
Attorney Altman asked, Mr. Taylor do you have a card or something like that, that you could give us?
Doug Taylor stated, yes.
Gerald Cartmell stated, well Ned’s here.
Attorney Altman stated, Ned’s here. Okay Ned do you want him to go ahead and speak in your behalf?
Ned Fulkerson stated, sure.
Attorney Altman stated, okay, very good.
President Stimmel stated, okay, thanks we just had to ask that because just to clarify the record sir.
Doug Taylor stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Is there anything you’d like to add to the reading so far sir?
Doug Taylor stated, no.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Is there anybody here for or against in addition for this variance? Okay I see none.
Director Weaver stated, we have not received anything for or against this one.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Attorney Altman asked, this is also a home that has front yards right?
Director Weaver stated, that is correct.
Attorney Altman stated, and that is the real reason why the variance is needed. Would that be correct Diann?
Director Weaver stated, I believe so yes.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, sorry, again we have another document. Doug I assume this is from you. I know it says Habitat but this is what you presented.
Doug Taylor stated, oh you guys going to look at it.
Jerry Thompson stated, well it’s just basically to whom it may concern.
Doug Taylor stated, yes.
Jerry Thompson asked, that is from you? I think it should be entered in as well.
Attorney Altman stated, you need to sign that so we can have that in the file, please.
Doug Taylor asked, do you have a pen?
Attorney Altman stated, very good.
Gerald Cartmell asked, are they leaving the garage?
Director Weaver stated, yes.
Gerald Cartmell asked, does it need to be brought in? Need setbacks?
President Stimmel stated, Jerry I’ll just go ahead and read it. It’s to White County Area Plan, February 28, 2008. To Whom It May Concern: On behalf of Habitat for Humanity we are asking for you to consider our variance as stated on the enclosed papers. If our variance is not approved we will be unable to build a house on the lot as requested. This corner lot was one plotted when the town was first laid out therefore it was not of large size with streets on the north and west of its boundaries. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely, Habitat for Humanity.
Attorney Altman stated, now signed by Doug Taylor in the file.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Anything else Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, no, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, no problem, thank you. Charlie?
Charlie Mellon stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, Dave?
Dave Scott stated, I don’t have anything.
Gerald Cartmell asked, you’re leaving the garage right?
President Stimmel asked, are you voting? We’re voting.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit. It has two front yards but not big traffic flow.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 16’ front (Fourth Street) setback variance to build a new home on Lot 4 in Block I in the Original Plat of the Town of Wolcott, White County, Indiana.
Common Description: Property is located in the Town of Wolcott at 307 W. Scott Street.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 5 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Altman stated, the results on the voting on petition #2703 again we have 5 votes, 5 votes that the petition was hereby granted. You need to get a building permit and see Diann about that, okay.
President Stimmel stated, thank you sir.
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#2697 Anliker Family Trust; The property is located on 245.461 Acres, Part E ½ E ½ 33/34-28-4, located South of Monon, between U.S. 421 and C.R. 100 E. and between Quarry Rd. and 500 N. Tabled from February 21, 2008.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a Special Exception to construct and operate mining operation (stone quarry) to supply on sight dolomitic lime plant and local economy.
President Stimmel asked, and someone representing the variance?
Attorney Altman stated, a Special Exception.
President Stimmel stated, Special Exception, yes. Mr. Bult anything else you want to add to…
Rob Bult stated, yes, I’d like to make a brief statement.
President Stimmel stated, sure.
Rob Bult stated, Rob Bult with Synergy Management. Synergy Management is here tonight requesting a Special Exception for mining. We have submitted detailed information regarding site plan, plant layout, entrance as rail spurs, berms intensive, also included is a mine plan an initial mine plan and also a 20 year mine plan, also storm water handle, drainage, topo maps, reclamation plan and an environmental information under IDEM jurisdiction. Synergy Management’s purpose for requesting a Special Exception for mining is to mine raw dolomitic lime stone through the proposed lime plant. This is one step in the long permitting process to construct and operate a lime plan. Some of the information asked and answered and provided tonight is outside the scope of the BZA however, Synergy understands a lime plant goes well beyond current mining operations familiar to you and the community. It also should be noted to the community that we comment the effort put forth by the BZA Members and other county officials to understand, educate, and familiarize themselves with the lime plant operation. Beyond the written material, Synergy Management has provided to you I brought part of my team to answer and explain questions you may have. John Castleberry, my environmental compliance manager, Dave Armbruster my project manager, Todd Briar from environmental resource management, he’s a partner with that consulting firm. Howard Pugh, Associate Director, and Robert James, Director of the Indiana Aggregate Association is also in attendance. Who we do not have present is our cooperate attorney. We are relying on the BZA’s judgment. But Synergy Management has been asked to provide for a Special Exception for mining far exceed any previous request brought forth to White County, regardless, Synergy realizes much of this motivation has been prompted by an outside interest personal reasons and gain. Their interest is not for the economic benefit of the community but their own internal gain. Synergy Management has answered, addressed all questions posed to date. Synergy Management wants to be part of your community. Our business is not harmful to the environment or the community. We will be a full time employer with a large tax base for many years to come. Many of our employees will be hired locally and we will be a responsible neighbor who will play an active role in the community. Synergy Management requests your approval for a Special Exception for mining.
President Stimmel stated, thanks Mr. Bult. Is there someone who wants to speak for or against the variance or the Special exception, I apologize in addition? Connie?
Connie Neininger stated, good evening I’m Connie Neininger, White County Economic Development Director and first of all I’d like to thank you for allowing me to say a few words. The Economic Development office is in support of the proposed Synergy Management, the dolomite lime plant to be constructed over a mile south of the cooperate limits of the Town of Monon. As you may have read in the newspapers in the past weeks or so the census counts show we are loosing residence in our county as are many rural counties in the State of Indiana. Unfortunately most of those counties include our neighbors to the west, the north, and the east. We all need to work together to help our community grow and prosper and we need to provide employment opportunities at a competitive wage that will give our youth and our residence a reason for staying in our county. As an Economic Developer I find it difficult at times to compete with communities such as Lafayette and Tippecanoe County due to our lack of infrastructure and for some of our communities such as Monon its distance from the interstate. We realize the importance of our exiting companies and we appreciate each of them for employing our citizens and doing business in our county, however we have a school corporation, North White that is struggling to make ends meet and keep the teachers on staff and it will take additional resources above what is currently being provided by the existing tax base to reverse the downward trend. The proposed Synergy plant will provide an economic boost to the community and the school corporation. Based on the preliminary for real and personal property at the current tax rates the Synergy plant would pay approximately $475,000 in personal property taxes and $232,000 in real property taxes annually for a total in excess of $700,000. I want to stress these are preliminary numbers and I’m trying to be conservative in my calculations. But stop and think about the difference this will make with approximate 67% of the figure in other words $469,000 going to North White School Corporation. This money will provide the support the school needs to keep from cutting teachers salaries. Another thing I’ve learned over the years it’s better to have multiple companies employing 50 to 100 than 1 company employing a thousand. As many of you may remember when we have a company that employs 1200 to 3000 people and it closes its doors, it devastates our community. Synergy is planning on approximately, 40 employees at 17 to 22 dollars an hour with full benefits. Their annual payroll will be approximately 2 million dollars which could bring an additional $26,400 and seat it, County Economic Development income tax into our communities. There are many other economic benefits to the Synergy plant as Rob Bult has mentioned several times, they expect to hire the majority of the people locally which will improve the retail markets for housing and banking and will add to the potential for new car sales and an increase in sales such as Julies Emporium, and the new Dollar Store in Monon. The lumber company and hardware store will have the potential to see an increase in sales as early as the beginning of the construction period. We have certain steps we need to complete in the economic development process, this project was a competitive project, in other words we were competing with another community and we won that competition because we had the necessary resources at hand, in this case higher quality lime stone. The next step was to apply for the zoning change, which was approved in February and we are now requesting a special use permit, upon approval of the special use permit the company will complete their application for their air permit and I am confident IDEM, Indiana Department of Environmental Management will take their responsibility seriously when monitoring any and all emissions from this plant and their will be an opportunity for public comment in that process also. But we are fortunate that Synergy will be using new state of the art equipment and technology in this facility. We are at the point in the process where the company is asking to have this special use permit approved by the Board of Zoning Appeals so they can move on to the next step. The Economic Development office would like to ask for your favorable consideration of the Synergy’s special use permit this evening. Thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Connie.
Attorney Altman stated, Connie, I have a couple of questions.
Connie Neininger stated, yes.
Attorney Altman asked, you’ve studied the use that the applicant is intending to use this real estate for in detail right? So that you can testify that in your opinion whether you believe that the use would adequately served by essential public for facilities in this area, do you believe it is or would be?
Connie Neininger stated, yes.
Attorney Altman asked, do you believe it would? There are public services in the area that it would adequately serve and adequately be served.
Connie Neininger stated, correct, yes.
Attorney Altman asked, are those sufficient in your opinion to serve this use, the special use exception?
Connie Neininger stated, we have been in touch with all the public services including the Indiana Department of Transportation as far as the road and they will need to be adding a turn lanes which they have discussed with INDOT and that is…
Attorney Altman asked, and that is part of the proposal, right?
Connie Neininger stated, correct.
Attorney Altman asked, for the applicant to put that in is part of this application, right?
Connie Neininger stated, correct.
Attorney Altman asked, do you also have an opinion whether the special use exception would place demands on the public services and facilities in excessive available capacity? Do you believe there would be?
Connie Neininger stated, I don’t believe it will be any undue hardship on any of the public services.
Attorney Altman stated, okay. Do you believe that the special use is consistent with the use of land in this area?
Connie Neininger stated, yes I do and the reason being is there are several acres just to the north of this site that all ready zoned I-2 and already have a special use permit which is exactly what we’re asking for on this site and so yes I do believe it’s consistent with area and this is actually farther south away from the town.
Attorney Altman asked, and because of that, that makes it a good or bad location?
Connie Neininger stated, I believe it is a very good location.
Attorney Altman asked, thank you, uh, and would this be in your opinion a good place or a good place to locate this from a zoning or use point of view?
Connie Neininger stated, as far as the zoning goes I believe it is one of the most favorable sites because of the infrastructure that is in place there meaning the roads and the railroads.
Attorney Altman asked, and because the lime stones there, right?
Connie Neininger stated, correct.
Attorney Altman stated, and it isn’t any place else as far as you know?
Connie Neininger stated, not the highest quality that is at that site.
Attorney Altman stated, very good, thank you very much.
Connie Neininger stated, your welcome.
President Stimmel asked, is there anybody else who would like to speak for against? Yes sir?
Robert Ezra stated, My names Robert Ezra and I live due north of that proposed site, about a quarter mile on Quarry Road, 736 East Quarry is my address and my concern is for my wife and myself, our health because I have a severe heart problem, my wife has a muscle disease that attacks the upper respiratory muscles in her chest, it’s called ? and I’m worried what our breathing status, I know, I know all this that’s been said might be true and it might not be about pollution and the quality of air that I might receive from a south wind, like today and so, you know, that’s my concern and I’m sure the concern of my neighbors too. It would have to be but I just wanted to express my distaste for this which probably doesn’t mean anything to anybody but that’s just the way that I feel and I wanted to let people know.
President Stimmel stated, appreciate that Mr. Ezra.
Attorney Altman stated, Mr. Ezra, I have a question.
Robert Ezra stated, yes sir.
Attorney Altman asked, does the, your located near one of the quarry’s right now?
Robert Ezra stated, yes, I’m about quarried out, I get dust, a west wind dust, lime dust all over me from the west now I’m going to get it from the south, I don’t have a snowball chance in heck, you know but that’s my concern.
Attorney Altman stated, okay, thank you very much.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Ezra. Yes ma’am?
Susie Ezra stated, I’m Susie Ezra and I live at 736 E. Quarry Road, I’m the one that has the severe muscle disease and I could stop breathing at any time, they told me. I’ve been in the hospital for this, in and out and the wind today, 45 mph winds and it blows right into our house and it would, I mean it probably would put me in the hospital and they say there is, there is lime dust from this, I pulled this up on the internet and read all this and there is a difference in a stone quarry and a lime quarry. I noticed it says stone quarry here, stone quarry has different regulations than a lime quarry. From a lime quarry you get dust, you get carbon dioxide and if there’s a strong wind they are not to be in operation. If it’s windy they are not to be in operation, if it’s dry there not to be in operation because of the dust. This dust would come to us where we’re located and I’m afraid for Bob’s health and mine. I mean I am, really worried about this because if you ever had a disease where you could stop breathing at any time you would know why I am concerned by this. I’ve been put in the hospital, I’ve been almost this much, just not to long ago on a breathing machine and I cannot handle all the dust, all the carbon dioxide, and all the other green house gasses that will come from this quarry and yes we live next to, we’re a mile from the stone quarry, a half a mile from the stone quarry but it is different, there is a difference between a stone quarry and a lime quarry. There are considerable differences in the two, in the regulations, in the time they operate and on. Lime quarry can only operate so many hours in a day, only on Saturday and not on Sunday. They can only run on certain roads, there not allowed to take mud on the road, they have to have their trucks covered, if they cover the trucks then that takes away from the lime because it kind of cements it but to prevent the dust from the lime that has to be thick, so I’m sorry I’m taking so long but I’m very upset.
President Stimmel stated, you’re fine.
Susie Ezra stated, and I mean you know, I’m sure I could get doctors slip for this.
President Stimmel stated, you’re fine, thank you Mrs. Ezra.
Susie Ezra stated, um hum.
Linda Eckert stated, I’m Linda Eckert, um, I think I’ve been here before. I have some packets for everybody. This is some of the correspondence you’ve had throughout this meeting and some of the concerns we’ve had. I just wanted to make sure the Board had it all in one place. I don’t know if I can, if I’m getting out of order or out of line here but there’s a couple of misconceptions that have been floating around and I’d like to address 3 of them right now. The first one and I’ve heard this so many times is there is out of state interest driving the opposition to this lime plant. Now I’m sorry, I’m not out of state. My people helped settle this land, we’ve been here 150 years. I am not out of state. Um, anybody in this room is against it or opposed or concerned, do you understand that, that it’s out of state, stand up and show me who is out of state here. Not out of state, I’m sorry, not out of state. Everybody that’s here lives here that’s worried about this stand up and show these people we’re worried. We’re not from out of state and we’re not being driven from out of state, thank you. That’s one the other one is I’ve been told we have paid consultants, paid environmentalists telling us what to do. That’s not true. I spent over 50 hours of my own time researching this. I have not talked to one environmentalist that has been paid. This is our own research, these are our concerns, this is nothing to do with somebody outside of this state. I just really wanted those misconceptions taken care of because everybody has been saying well you don’t know what you’re talking about somebody’s feeding you this stuff, it’s not true, okay. I grew up here, I live on the farm where I was born. I live on the farm that my ancestors homesteaded. This farm is now being threatened by this project, I’m sorry, I am concerned, yes. Um, the other thing that has been told to me is I have 2 other quarries close to me. Um, why am I so upset about this one. There’s a big difference between a stone quarry and a lime quarry as Mrs. Ezra just said, okay. Our stone quarry’s run Friday, Saturday, maybe Sometimes Monday through the week, Sunday there shut down. They do not run 24/7. They do not cook the stone and they do not put out a large amount of green house gasses into the environment. That’s the difference. Yes I can almost throw a stone at the quarry across the road from me down the road but I don’t have to worry about green house gasses coming out. That’s the difference, there not there 24/7. I have a smart remark in here, maybe it will lighten things up. I dearly love to wake up to the sound of rumbling, conveyor belts and trucks backing up, you know the beep, beep, beep. But you know there’s a chance that I’m going to get to go to sleep to that now. That’s not appealable at all. So those are the concerns, here our real concerns, okay, CO2 emissions, our real concerns are also involve not particularly what this plant is going to cook our in emissions and because I know IDEM’s going to cover that. I know IDEM is going to say this is what you can put out in this plant and they’re going to watch that, I am quite sure of that. What is not going to be measured, CO2 emissions, 775 thousand tons, if my calculations are correct and if you’re running at full tilt. That comes to a lot, a lot of CO2 emissions. Water availability to the surrounding residences, the regulations say residences must be provided with an alternative water source not necessarily a well. What does that mean, water delivered by a tanker? Okay, what if the company don’t know longer exist, what if there no longer there to provide funds for the well if it went dry? This is an LLC company, limited liability company. What about increased traffic, we have 70 semis to the north, is that 70 semis too and, back and forth so it’s a total of 35 both ways or is that 70 semis up, 70 semis back, 140 trucks? We have to worry about railroad crossing issues now, in the future I’m quite sure they’re going to be using the railroad. Anybody in their right mind would. How is that going to increase our railroad traffic? Are our crossings going to be blocked again like they used to be, I don’t know. Noise pollution 24/7, I think that’s rather obviously, background grumbling is not fun, I live in the country, I live in the country for a reason, we all do. It’s peace, quite, it’s rural. Light pollution 24/7 they’re running 24 hours a day. They have to have lights. Has anybody been in Monon and driven by Vangaurd parking lot, it’s like being at a stadium 24 hours a day. We have to have blinds on the house that block out the light at night that’s how bad the lights are. Incompatible land use, existing quarries are not the same as this project they dig in fresh stone. This one heats and processes stone 24/7. The existing plants are not 300’ deep. This plant will be 300’ deep at its prime. Property values, what happens when the folks see the area is surrounded by quarries, what they see are quarries. Would you buy there? If this plant goes in I am not almost totally surrounded by stone quarries and so are my neighbors. Unemployment and market values I don’t know how true this is but it sounds like we’re going to gain 30 jobs and probably loose 40 jobs through the other plants. I don’t know what the capability is, what about the other quarries or workers, is there a viable consideration, what will the market handle without imploding, do we know? Do we have, I mean do we have the right to make that decision without know that, I think that’s an important factor. Our stone quarry’s been around here for awhile, they supported us, and we might want to support them somewhat. Loss of farm land and this is probably the biggest that tears at my heart, um this is going to change the nature of the landscape, possibly drainage, but the biggest thing is we’re going to loose more farm land. Indiana right now looses 80 thousand acres of farm land a year. That is a whole lot of farms and we’re going to add to it. Can we afford to do that? There will be increased silt in the stream going out to the lake system. The present time we’re paying major bucks to keep the silt out of the lake system. Do we know how much silt this might put in our lake system? Fugitive dust, you can’t bag the whole pit, okay. There is going to be fugitive dust coming out. It’s going to change the landscape, I love cornfields. I’m not particularly fond of a large land, lime stone pit. Lack of outside monitoring of the air and water quality standards, I believe this is a self regulated plant. I think I’ve heard that a couple of times, that’s worrisome. Future expected growth plans of this project, will there eventually be more than 2 kilns, what are they’re plans to grow and the after use of this project, the reclamation, no matter how you look at it 240 acres, 300’ deep, it’s a very big footprint with water in it. Those are my concerns, um, there are other comparisons here that I think the Board might find interesting as far as plants in St. Genevieve in Mississippi. I believe some Board Members have visited that plant, there’s a comparison there. The major comparison for me is that plant is I believe fueled by natural gas, no?
President Stimmel stated, you absolutely can’t correct it, the plant is fueled by coal and liquid coke.
Linda Eckert asked, is it?
President Stimmel stated, yes it is ma’am.
Linda Eckert stated, okay, from what I found online it said it was gas so I stand corrected.
President Stimmel stated, that’s incorrect.
Linda Eckert stated, on that, there’s a list here of the things that come out of all lime plants, hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, net compounds, Varian compounds, mercury compounds, there will all within the limits, I’m quite sure of IDEM the point being is do you want them in your environment at all. UM, and I’m going to finish with what I understand the role of the BZA to be so you’ll have to help me if I’m incorrect, all right. To protect the health, safety, welfare, property values of the citizens and residence of the area. Is that correct? Is that the…
Attorney Altman stated, that’s part of it.
Linda Eckert stated, that’s part of it, and I think compatible ? also so before I think that could be said at least on my part. I listed 14 things that the community would like to know, if you could possibly do that for us and make us feel better about it. Number 1, supply the public with answers to the 29 questions we presented in paper to Synergy Management, you have a copy of those questions.
President Stimmel asked, excuse me Linda but didn’t Mr. Bult try to answer those questions the other night at the meeting that you prepared?
Linda Eckert stated, he answered about half of them, I believe. I would really like them addressed and in writing so that we can, everybody, there was a lot of trouble of people being able to hear at that meeting also. We did not have good acoustics so I apologize for that.
Charlie Mellon stated, I wasn’t at the meeting.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Linda Eckert stated, and you weren’t at the meeting so they would like the answers. Provide a full environmental impact study by an outside independent agency, not only of the plant area but of the surrounding community area also. What with the noise, light, air, fugitive dust levels be at 1, 2, 3, and 4 miles, how will this affect the existing conditions? Promote a plan for water access for the residence if there is a loss of water due to the lime project. This should be funded and secured past the life of the LLC. Do a traffic study to reveal safety issues and problem areas. Have a plan in place before the plant is built. Provide a plan to counterbalance the green house gasses, reformations or donations to a carbon credit organization for the amount of the green house gas initials. Investigate the effects of the new plant on the local aggregate market if the market is weak please think twice. Do a study to the effects of this project on home values in the area. Investigate the loss of farm land, how much have we lost in the last 5 years. Investigate the effects on CO2 on plant life and farm production. A study to determine how much silt will be emptied into our lake system. Investigate how many quarries the region can support. If this project is accepted provide devices outside of the plant to monitor pollution levels. Have a viable environmental plan in place via green business and if you find that this plant does not threaten the safety, health, welfare, and property values please explain in writing why this project is not a threat to us. And I think we’re basically asking here is to have an informed decision by the BZA that everyone can live with and have ? . And thank you for your time.
President Stimmel stated, thanks Linda.
Attorney Altman stated, for the record I marked her petitions as 1, 2, and 3. And I marked the applicants as A that was previously tendered to us.
President Stimmel asked, is there anybody else? Mr. Bumbleburg?
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, thank you Mr. Chairman, I’m Joe Bumbleburg with Ball Eggleston in Lafayette. With me tonight is my partner Steve Myer, um I have an associate consult from Ice Miller who you will meet at a later time. You were handed a significant pile of papers when the petitioner came before you tonight and that reminded me that at our last meeting I handed to you folks a list of 30 questions and if I remember correctly Mr. Chairman you asked that the petitioner meet with your staff and with members of this board to answer those questions. If that occurred I have not seen any public record of that. I leave you to judge whether or not your instructions should have been followed. This matter has been subject to as much discussion as probably any petition that all of you in your collective terms of this board have heard. There have been a lot of ink in newspapers, uh, there’s been TV, a lot of those kinds of things. Much of it since the last Board of Zoning Meeting. Much of it might have been resolved had the meeting that was held over in Monon about a week ago been held a month ago or 2 months ago so that the citizens of this area could have been properly informed, so that the Area Plan Commission could have had the benefit of the data that was developed and what should have been brought about by the inquiries that were made. Indeed a petition as significant of this, a petitioner who really wants to know the neighborhood and have the support of the community convenes a meeting of the citizens before filing the petition and seeks out questions and provides the answers. Frankly I’ve seen many, many petitions in my career and I know that’s exactly how you take away the distrust and the whole issue of whether or not everybody is fully informed, also I noticed that the closer we’ve gotten to this meeting there have been the indications that Mrs. Eckert talked about the question of how the state interest and financial considerations, I guess my response to that is unless this petitioner is going to be a not for profit corporation I presume that they’re doing this for some economic benefit for themselves also. If you believe that IDEM posses and if that process has been in it the ability to provide all of the protections that this county wants as a result of this then your simply mistaken. The duties of IDEM, their statutory obligations are significantly different, the kinds of things that you are supposed to be finding under the statute and under your ordinance. Now I have here tonight a Jennifer Andres from Ice Miller and if I may Mr. Chairman I’d like to invite her to take the podium from me for a moment so that she could speak and then give me back the podium when she gets done.
President Stimmel stated, all right.
Jennifer Andres stated, good evening, I just wanted to take this opportunity to introduce myself, my name is Jennifer Andres as Mr. Bumbleburg indicated. I’m an associate who works for Ice Miller and has been requested by him to join in with him to kind of help explain the IDEM permit processing and answer any questions that you all my have regarding that because I know it’s an issue that’s come up on occasion both with the Towns people that we’ve heard tonight and also on prior meetings so I’m here to just kind of briefly discuss what the IDEM process is in general and then to address any questions that you have and we’ve also prepared a letter to Mr. Bumbleburg that may present to you and kind of go through some of the technical concerns that people have raised with the proposed project. So just to begin with in general the process for filing an IDEM application is that some, the petitioner will actually file something with IDEM. There’s a requirement that that permit actually be provided to local government officials who will be impacted within the area as well as filing something within the public library and giving it to adjoining owners simply so that they know that something is in the process. IDEM reviews that information and has approximately 270 days to kind of evaluate whether they’re going, what kind of permit they’re going to issue. The question that’s typically come up as far as whether IDEM during that time period will actually deny the permit request which is extremely, extremely rare. I actually don’t know that, it just happens very rarely. It may have happened on occasion but it’s almost always the case that when a petitioner comes in and asks for an air occupation that one eventually will be granted it’s just, it just will depend on what’s actually in the permit what IDEM requests to have in there versus, you know looking at the operations that are proposed. During that review time IDEM looks at the permit application, comes up with a draft permit and then places that for the public to actually take a look at. So that’s the first opportunity really that IDEM kind of invites the public to have a voice in the process. It’s not to say that the public can’t comment to IDEM prior to that but that’s really when the process starts. IDEM has a requirement to actually open up the permit for a public hearing for a 30 day time period or I’m sorry for public comment for a 30 day time period and also can entertain a public hearing if enough request and interest is granted, is expressed by the public. In general IDEM chooses to, or under its rules will make a determination on a final permit within 270 days of receiving the initial application. Now this time period is kind of flexible because it also depends on whether additional information is requested by the petitioner or if additional information is submitted voluntarily the clock will stop for a certain amount of time and then restart so it’s not an exact 9 month process but it’s an approximate one that IDEM tries to stand by so it’s, you know depending which side your on it’s either a relatively quick or relatively slow process. Once that permit is actually issued it’s going to contain limits that IDEM by rule and by law is required to have in there. There is certain things that IDEM does not necessarily consider when ever their drafting a permit, certain things that we’ve heard tonight that some of the concerns are you know lighting issues, noise issues, things like that won’t be addressed there so if there’s a concern with that that’s something that needs to be handled by another entity such as this or by someone who actually has that authority to impose different obligations because that’s something that simply can’t be covered by IDEM and they won’t do it. There is an opportunity once a permit is issued for a party to actually appeal a permit. This has to be an interested party who has a potential impact that they could suffer because the permit has been issued but again it’s very, very rare for the environmental loge who hears that petition to actually overturn a permit decision by IDEM. What they may do is change some of the permit conditions but it’s very rare that they will actually go in and say this permit is no longer issued we’re revoking the permit. So once a permit is granted it’s very, it’s like you know almost a sure thing that at least some type of operations will begin under those permit conditions. So really we want to make sure that we have an opportunity to evaluate what’s going to be presented before IDEM. At this point we really don’t have a good indication as far as what’s going to happen. One thing that we’ve discussed with Mr. Bumbleburg is the fact that within White County we don’t have an application on file for the Monon facility. There is an application that was filed for the Francesville facility which we have actually retained, um, an environmental expert to kind of go through the permit and take a look at some of the issues or concerns that may arise from that but again all we can do is in looking at that, estimate that that’s going to be similar to something that might be filed here. At this point we don’t have anything on file for the public to kind of look at to see what the planned operations although I know that additional information has been provided to you this evening. So that’s kind of a general sense of the IDEM permit process that will happen. Another thing that’s been approached tonight is the issue of IDEM inspections and enforcement and things like that which is something that, of course, IDEM will do, they are a state agency. They have limited resources so they will come out and inspect the facility but they won’t do it you know the frequency is really in question. It’s hard to determine how often they’ll actually be out there. A lot of what they do is base their ability to enforce and review facility operations by looking at information that the actually operators are required to submit according to their permit terms. And that’s really kind of how they look at how the operations have been running but again they will at times go into the facility and check things. So just really quickly I wanted to provide you a copy of this letter if I may.
President Stimmel stated, yes ma’am.
Jennifer Andres stated, and again this kind of summarizes a few of the concerns that have been raised in regards to the Francesville permit, not necessarily with any permit application again that would be filed for here but I’d like to bring up Paul Dubenetzkey who is the consultant that’s been hired to kind of review the permit, to go over some of the more technical items that are within that letter just to give you a brief understanding of it.
Attorney Altman stated, Jennifer I have a question.
Jennifer Andres stated, yes, uh huh.
Attorney Altman asked, the fact there is or isn’t an application for this particular plant is that meaningful at all?
Jennifer Andres asked, in the sense of your making a decision tonight?
Attorney Altman asked, no is the, does that mean anything?
Jennifer Andres stated, I think the only thing it would mean is that the public doesn’t know exactly what the planned operations would be for here so it doesn’t, you know the opportunity to kind of see exactly what the, what the applicant would be proposing as far as facility operations, proposed emissions, and things of that nature haven’t been provided for public review yet. I think that’s the most important aspect of not having something on file yet.
Attorney Altman stated, it isn’t like they’re doing anything wrong.
Jennifer Andres stated, I mean they don’t have to have it on file yet, um, they, they, it’s within their capacity to file whenever they want, um, so it’s, you know that’s entirely up to their discretion.
President Stimmel stated, just if you could hang out here just a minute Jennifer I was going to ask the Board do you want to hear additional details about this or how do you want to handle it. Jerry you have any thoughts? Charlie?
Gerald Cartmell stated, everybody needs to be heard, I suppose.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right, okay, all right. Just wanted to check.
Gerald Cartmell stated, it’s not fair to single somebody out and say no you can’t.
President Stimmel stated, no, no, I’m just, talking about the level of detail that’s all we wanted.
Paul Dubenetzkey stated, thank you members of the board for this opportunity to speak to you. My name is Paul Dubenetzkey. I’m senior vice president of Keramida Environmental, we’re a full service environmental firm headquartered in Indianapolis. Um, what I’ve been asked to do is speak to you from my experience prior to working for Keramida Environmental so um, about a year and a half ago before I came to Keramida I was the head of the Indiana Department of Environmental Management’s office and air quality and for about 15 years prior to that I was in charge of air permitting in that office so I’ve had a lot of experience in actually this kind of setting sitting of that side of the table with an audience of citizens asking about what IDEM can or cannot do in the permit processing so that’s what I’d like to talk to you just a little bit today. Now, just to make it clear I’m not longer authorized to speak for IDEM uh, so I’m just speaking from my experience um, there. Um, one thing is uh, to realize is that uh, this plant needs an air permit because by definition it’s going to have an impact on air quality so the State of Indiana will review that impact and in issuing a permit insure that it meets the state and federal laws that govern that plant, um, in fact IDEM has an obligation to issue a permit to an applicant who fulfills their obligation that says they’re going to meet a state and federal requirements. Um, there’s a couple of federal rules that specifically regulate lime plants, there’s a rather new source performance standard under the clean air act and there is a rather recent uh, national emission standard for hazardous air pollutants. But the guts of the review, this type of permit are case by case determinations of best available control technology and an air quality analysis to determine the impact of the plant, uh, local air quality and that is one thing um, that can’t really transfer over from the Francesville site because it has to take into account property lines and the fact that being located here it’ll be farther away from sources of air pollution and the north and closer to sources of air pollution from the south so that kind of technical work would need to be um, redone for an application here. Um, as Jennifer kind of eluded to there’s several things that IDEM doesn’t have authority to address, truck traffic noise, light, odors, and even green house gasses, they have no authority to address those in their air permit. Um, well some of the permit will be based on specific requirements that are lifted out of rule and just placed verbatim into the permit there’s actually a lot of discretion that IDEM will be exercising in reviewing a permit like this. I mentioned that the and um, Mr. Bult mentioned that they will be required to install best available control technology and that’s a case by case determination that takes into account economics, energy, and environmental impacts and it doesn’t mean that’s it’s the very best that anybody’s done anywhere, um applicants have the right to make an argument that in their specific case these other factors dictate a different level for best available control technology. Um, we have not done a comprehensive review of the application, we did look at it based on some concerns that we heard at the public hearing week before last as well as some newspaper clippings. Um, the supplemental information that was submitted to IDEM uh, according to law certain confidential business information can be asked to be kept from the public by applicants and much of the information that goes into the best available control technology determination um, was requested to be kept confidential but um, then the last there would be this case by case determination that IDEM would do and that IDEM would explain when they provide the draft permit for public notice. Um, another area that is, has a lot of discretion is the requirement to have a fugitive dust control plan, uh, so that’s something that’s put on the applicant, they submit a plan to IDEM and IDEM approves it and there’s not a whole lot of specific requirements for approving or asking for a modified plan. The third major area of discretion has to do with monitoring, one of the newspaper clips I saw said that they would be using, Synergy would be using continuous monitoring to sure compliance with a permit. In the air police control field there’s a term of our called continuous opacity monitoring systems or continuous emissions monitoring systems that are generally used when talking about continuous monitoring. And with the exception of um, a continuous opacity monitor that measures the darkness of the smoke that’s coming out of the stack that specifically required by rural and a proposal to monitor oxygen um, in the flue gas as a surrogate for what the outside nitrogen emissions are uh, we didn’t see any other continuous monitoring systems um, similar to what um, many types of facilities install to measure sulfur dioxide, carbon monoxide, um, oxide nitrogen and uh much fewer cases of violator compounds. So we didn’t see that in the application in Francesville and of course we don’t know what’s going to be submitted here. Um other questions that people raise that really can only be answered by IDEM regarding the inspection frequency, uh whether IDEM announces their inspections ahead of times or are they surprise inspections or the consequences of any failure to meet an emission limitation either you know, intermittently a one time violation or an ongoing violation, exactly what would IDEM do about that. IDEM’s the only one that can answer those kinds of questions. I would expect presuming they would hold a public hearing on this permit they would be asked to supply answers at that time which they may or may not do at the hearing themselves the would and written responses and so with that that just, I don’t think anybody wanted us to read this letter into the record so with that I’d be happy to answer any questions you would have. Okay thank you very much and thank you for your time.
President Stimmel stated, thank you very much Paul. Mr. Bumbleburg.
Attorney Altman stated, we certainly and include the letter uh, dated March 25, 2008 with it’s exhibit signed by Jennifer A. Andres at part of the record and uh, would be marked as other objectors have marked it. It would be number 2 I believe.
President Stimmel stated, Mr. Bumbleburg.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, thank you for doing that. I just came into the custody from your consult of the document that was handed up to you. I think that we need to ask a very fundamental question what is the purpose of your hearing and granting of a special exception. You are here to make a determination that the health, safety, and welfare, and property values of the general citizenry of this area are protected. Now, to do that under the law you have to meet the statute and your own ordinance. Unless that statute and ordinance suggest that you do, it suggest that you have to make findings of fact and conclusions of law and incase your interested Mr. Altman that’s 367915, I expect you’ve got a copy of it.
Attorney Altman stated, I know exactly what you’re talking about. You bet.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, and that needs to be done and why is that? The why is that is that if you grant the exception and sometime in the future some citizen or business comes in here and says to Diann Weaver I think there’s a violation of the special exception and if you go back to your record and the findings of fact are inconclusive, incomplete, nonexistent you have no way to enforce the special exception which you have granted nor do you have any way at that point to protect your citizenry. It’s just that simple. The courts are replete with cases that say that boards like speak only from your minutes and your records and so when somebody says to you that they are going to have as they did at this document a final mining and reclamation plan developed by the petitioner under the direction of an association without any time, without any oversight by you at some point and presumably this is after you’ve already granted the special exception and then they come in with a site plan and a reclamation plan and lets assume that you find fault with it. You have no ability to change it at that point. It’s a done deal and that’s why I keep harping at you about let’s get things at the right order here, let’s get things at the right order. Uh, they also in the last area indicate there that they’ve handed up to you a packet of material that uh, and we gather they don’t want you to read because they don’t want it to become public knowledge. The fact of the matter is, is you cannot protect the public if there’s going to be a sealed envelope which you have not read which has not been disclosed to the public interest. You just can’t do that. They also indicate that the IDEM application can be finalized only after the special exception is granted and I think that there is likely legal difference on that very issue, a lot of the issue on that about whether or not they can’t go right ahead as a business judgment, attempt to get their IDEM permit and then come back and say to you this is what IDEM has perfected for us and the petition process and their notice process and this is what we’re going to do board, now you have insurance when you grant us a special exception that the people are well taken care of. What will we have in the future to look back on, the site plan that’s showing in the file, in their file I think this is what I have here and you’ve all got this, it was shown to us several times is a site plan that leaves as much to guessing by gosh as it does to detail. No topography on here, the run off from the coal pile, look at that and really tell me how it’s going to be handled, there’s no detail really on the grades of the berms and their landscape plans. There’s a 10 year pit plan boundary and a 20 year pit boundary but at one of the meetings the other night I heard that this thing was going to run for 70 years. Well where’s the 30, and 40, where are these boundaries, what are you granting them permission to do? Property boundaries on here, one of them says future boundary, what in heavens name does that mean? How can you judge and protect the people with that? The, I leave it to you to decide whether the drawing is adequate with respect to the maintenance buildings and storage and the roads and all of those kinds of things. That’s what you’re here for but again remember when somebody comes along later and says I object because they didn’t do x, y, or z and you pick up this document are you going to be able to find the x, y, or z there? Now I see 3674921 permits this board to require written commitments. You know what it says about them is, they have to be recordable, that means they have in the appropriate paper signed, notarized, and put into a position where somebody can take it to the county recorder and put it there. Why is that important, again it makes the record clear about what this whole matter is all about? It’s clear to me that they have indicated promises in both these meetings and then the letters from the editor, the oral matters to the board, none of that is binding. Uh, because it’s, it will not be, unless done differently then what I’ve seen here a matter of a record, a promise to develop a detailed reclamation plan after the approval of the special exception simply has no binding affect. A promise to promise is a really interesting thing in the law but you can’t take it to the bank, you can’t enforce it. And that same is true with the promises to vegetate berms, uh, to properly put in the accel / decel lanes over on the highway. A special exception is a permission to do on a piece of real estate that something that usually could not be done, to get that petition granted a petition has to be filed, there have to be notices given, hearings held, findings approved, site plans reviewed, conditions approved, and if appropriate commitments required. The Boards duty is to hear all of this material and evaluate it and if you approve that must have a completed record that guarantees the public interest and when I say guarantee what I really mean is that the public interest is governed by assuredly that will say in the future that everything is okay. The Board knows from the petitions that you’ve received from any number of people that this has a great community interest and a great view on this and at the last meeting again you received questions and I discover now that those questions and answers are in here uh, you know I gave them, like I say the first one talks about something that’s going to be developed in the future and one of the other places in here the questions are suggested that I ask those questions out of some alternator motive. I guess it’s wrong for me to try to represent the interest of these people. You know what the community wants in this thing, now we’ve talked about all of those questions over at Monon and Mr. Chairman you were there and I suggest that if you want a little drill take the 30 questions and your recollection and go through and check off the ones that got answered and your going to find that Mrs. Eckert was right, not very many of them, not very many of them. We’ve heard pledges made and that’s a petitioner’s right duly for their own operation, it’s just a question of does it rise up to the level that you are required to do. That’s the way the approval system works and as I indicated and as these other folks have indicated don’t believe that IDEM’s going to be your protector, they’re duties are different, they are way different. They have their own fish to fry, their own issues and I’m sure they will do them but they may not do them as expediently as you would like to have them done, they may not address these same issues that you might like to have done and the IDEM is not going to worry very much about the roads, the railroad, the lights, the noise, or even that reclamation plan. You have to have an enforceable, recordable plan after you vote it’s too late for that. Now the Economic Director here talked about the economic development and how it will affect the county and I don’t doubt that it does but unfortunately economic development in it’s own way sometimes rewards some and punishes others and so why we might talk about the extra jobs and the values and that sort of stuff there has never been any discussion about what happens to the land valuation of the people in the neighborhood. What happens to that highway out there if all these trucks run over it and end of the years and then you want to repair the pot holes and who does that and can you get INDOT to do those kinds of things? So I tell you that what we may do in one hand is protect part of the interest of White County at the expense of other interests and I think that binding thing is also something that you need to do. Members of this Board there are simply too many loose ends here to grant the special exception. If you went about this thing and put the right paperwork together and brought it to you properly you might approve it, you might not but given what you have got in your files tonight, given what you’ve got in your files tonight, I think that you are being asked to issue a blank check. To protect general population of this county I would request that you turn down this request for a special exception and I certainly thank you for the time and the curtsey here this evening.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Bumbleburg. Mr. Ward?
Charles Ward stated, I’m Charles Ward from Monon. Hi Charlie.
Charlie Mellon stated, hi.
Charles Ward stated, uh some thing that’s been run through that I need to get educated a little bit also. The Liberty Township, uh, landfill traffic, do they get a special cut out of the county deal for having the landfill there?
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
Charles Ward stated, okay.
Charlie Mellon stated, the township does.
Charles Ward asked, the township does, okay being we, if this does pass being we are going to have this in our back door, who do we approach, do we approach you for a special deal to get Monon Township and Monon a better cut on the tax rate on this?
Charlie Mellon stated, I would say it would be the owner, through the government.
Charles Ward asked, do what now?
Charlie Mellon stated, the owner would be the one that get something from the government.
Charles Ward stated, and you guys can put in the record that the same place, because you know we do have a town that’s on the down hill with a great slide.
Charlie Mellon stated, we realize that.
Charles Ward stated, okay, second is the transportation deal. We have a caution light right there at 16 and 421, all that does is say you don’t have to stop and if you set there and watch trucks and that come through there the speed limit is not observed and being they’re going to put siding in at the other spots, what’s wrong with just putting a 4 way stop there because we’ve got all them garbage trucks coming from the north that goes that direction and the most important is that one block to the south is a school crossing.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
Charles Ward stated, one block, trucks running 40 mph through there, one block to stop your kids. Don’t let that be one of them things on your back. That is probably one of the most important things right there so if we can get some extra tax relief for our town yes that would be considerably helped and I guess we’ll have to eat the diesel fuel. Okay.
President Stimmel stated, thanks Charlie, very much.
Charles Ward stated, thank you.
President Stimmel asked, anybody else want to speak for or against the variance or the special exception? Yes sir?
Attorney Altman had to swear Ken Kersey in.
Ken Kersey stated, my names Ken Kersey. I didn’t plan on speaking here tonight. Charlie on the board is probably the only one that knows me besides Jerry. Years ago I ran an asphalt plant in this county, I didn’t own the company but I ran that plant and every year I fired that thing up, I had neighbors coming out of the network or out of the woodwork complaining about it. We had scrubbers that cleaned the stone and the sand that went through that plant when I make blacktop. I made half the blacktop that’s laying in the City of Monticello right now. I know what an asphalt does, I don’t know what this plant’s going to do so if your talking about air pollution, I think the community and this board needs to stop and look, you’ve got Indiana Beach to the east of this location, you’ve got Monon to the north, Reynolds to the south, they’ve already got a plant that they started building over there, it’s sitting not doing anything now but they were going to have a lot of truck traffic. For 6 years I put my life out here on this street and on these roads in this county directing traffic when they had accidents, fires, and what not. I know what truck traffic is, when this bridge shut down and you’ve got trucks all over Monticello trying to get out of it, you’ve got a traffic problem and that’s what they’re going to have up there. Believe me folks, a plant like this is going to deferment to the community, and you’ve got a lot of people coming in out here at the beach. I live here in Monticello, that plant’s not going to affect me very much down here but you need to look at the circumstances there. Start at Reynolds and work your way north and you’re going to put some more in there. It’s just going to be bad for the whole community up there. Thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Kersey. Yes ma’am.
Aleta Clark stated, Aleta Clark, I live in Monon, um, my entire family lives within a mile of this proposed lime plant and my sisters have small children. We can’t give anybody to give us an answer on the lights, the burning the coal, the 2 giant kilns, 24/7, 365 scares me. We don’t know what the pollution’s going to be. Are they going to come up and down 100 East eventually? Long term they’re going to run it for 70 years, nobody will tell us that. I don’t see how you can reclaim a 300’ hole full of water, put some trees right up and make it pretty, whoopty frickin deal. I can’t imagine my dads real thrilled about farming right up next to that thing or trying to feed his cows and beating the stone cars running up and down 100 East when they finally do decide to come that way and I don’t think anybody has enough answers from Synergy, who ever they are to make a decision tonight on whether or not this is good for the community. I don’t see how it can be if it ends up being an environmental eye sore what good does it do? How much money they bring into the schools, I mean nobody’s going to send they’re kids to school there and I ask the board to really stop and look and make sure we’ve all got our ducks in a row as a community to know what we’re getting into before we even decide to let them come to town on this thing, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mrs. Clark. Okay, anybody else? Mr. Burton.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, thank you. Steve Burton, White County Commissioner. Um, one of my responsibilities as Commissioner is to look out for the county but it’s also the future of this county and one of the things that’s continually brought up to me is what are you doing good for this community to help it grow. So one of my objectives is to help this community grown and this project, I feel, will help it grow. Unfortunately if you don’t grow you all know what the alternative is so this is a positive approach to help the community whether it be Monon, or White County Indiana. Each area of this county has it’s unique assets to it, Monticello has the lakes, Round Grove has a flat area lots of wind, lots of good farm ground, Wolcott has an exit on the interstate that’s one of only 2 exits in the county, that is a positive thing so that Wolcott can hopefully grow to this community in this county. Whether you view it as a positive or negative, Monon has mine deposits. That is one of their assets. They’ve had a trailer manufacturer there that’s had some ups and downs but one of the positive assets to this community is what this company’s trying to build and grow a company, melt the community with. My understanding this company will follow our current ordinances. And again we’re assuming worst case scenario. We also have to keep in mind that this might be, could possibly be the best company that ever comes to this county. But we’re assuming from public reaction that, that it is not going to be its worst cast scenario. We won’t be able to answer that question today and yes that is on your responsibility but please keep in mind that there are a lot of positive directions that this company can grow and help this county. I personally was in St. Genevieve, Missouri and saw a plant 7 times this size. Open more than 80 years, I can’t remember how old it was but I know they had 1920 vintage equipment there. They’ve continually up dated because they’re required to do so by EPA. The vice president of the plant manager of operations basically, I thought had a positive note that there’s more than 2 generations of family’s working in that facility. Its part of the community, it’s next to the town, it’s been there in excess of what the projected life of this is. A positive approach, this company wants to hire local people because they are part of the community, they don’t want to run them out. I feel that this company is also attempting to come in with the county with the same approach. They want to be a part of the community, they don’t want to be something that people don’t want to be here so I just want to emphasize the positive things that might be brought by this company coming here, um. That’s all I’ve got at this moment unless…
President Stimmel stated, Steve I, not to question but it’s just the informal nature of this hearing and I wonder if it wouldn’t be a good idea, there were just, I mean it’s not a matter of public record but the reality is there were 4 of us that actually went and visited the lime plant in St. Genevieve, Missouri. Dave Scott and myself, Steve Burton, and we met John Heimlich over there. John was visiting his son. And I don’t think it would be out of line to just talk a little bit about you know, what we saw. Jerry are you okay with listening to some of that, I just sent you an Email.
Jerry Thompson stated, oh yes, yes.
President Stimmel stated, but I think for everybody’s information and I don’t think anybody went there with a lot of preconceived ideas, in fact the reason we made that trip was to try to gather information. And as Steve described what we saw was a lime plant that had been there, my recollection was in excess of a hundred years that plant had been there. They underground mine now about 160’ down and it’s completely honeycombed underneath the city of St Genevieve. There are 3 generations of people been working there, grandfathers, fathers, sons right now. They have technology that, we stepped out of the car in front of this gentlemen’s office and there was 8 kilns running right across the road from us not a hundred yards away with 30 year old technology and I don’t know Mr. Bult’s going to put up but I’m just telling you that’s what was coming out these kilns and correct me if I’m wrong, Steve or Dave or John, that these kilns were 30 year technology, there was water vapor coming out of those kilns, you could detect a slight smell of sulfur in the air, the wind was blowing right out of the southwest at that time, those fumes were going directly over us I mean it was, you know, less than a hundred yards away. They had what do I want to say, 8 more kilns, or 7, or 8 more kilns, 7 more kilns in the back and some of those kilns were new technology, is that my recollection?
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, where they had to have a bag house.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, they were required to build with the new technology.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, they can no longer produce under air regulations what they currently have but they are allowed to run it because it currently existed.
President Stimmel stated, now the old, go ahead Steve I’m sorry.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, well one of the things I wanted to comment on the reason we, I made that trip down there is your concerns of bringing this stuff is you don’t know what’s going to happen. So…
Robert Ezra stated, this is not in your back yard though.
Several people talking at once.
Attorney Altman stated, don’t interrupt him, we won’t interrupt you, okay.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, but it was a true concern of myself to go down there and see a current plant in production 7 times the size and see the effect it had on the community and how close it was to the houses and the people around it and who actually worked there.
President Stimmel stated, and I have to tell you that the plant employs 500 people, 85% of those people come from the St. Genevieve area. A city of 4 thousand and when I say it’s close across the road is where the residential district starts from the mine, so it’s not a quarter of a mile or a half of mile it’s, it’s right there, it really is. A lot of trucks coming out of there, what did he say 400 a day that left that plant?
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, he was talking about 6,000 tons a day what they mined.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, I believe and it was coal fire.
President Stimmel stated, and it was coal fired coke, they had 2 piles of coal there was a large pile of coal that was probably ¾ the size of a football field, maybe 15 or 20’ tall at the tallest and it just had a, I mean it was open, it wasn’t covered there was just a circumference drive around it, no special care taken to it. He said they’d gotten 6 1/2” of rain in the last few days and they had, were pumping 2 million gallons, go ahead Steve.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, and the comment on the water, that question was also asked, the water they pump is clear, clean water as it would be well water to keep the underground tunnels clear. The above ground water usage would be in the old technology of steam, new technology that’s not allowed. The only water that would be used above ground to my understanding and Rob can correct me if I’m wrong is for dust control. They do not use water in the processing of it so the water wouldn’t be used there it’s only to pump it and to keep the hole clear and that is clean water.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, that addresses a little bit and the lady talked about silt. That was our concern is what is the water pumped out going to be, what kind of quality, what kind of issue, they said it was basically clear water that was underneath the wells.
President Stimmel stated, we asked them if they had actually ran it through any kind of a settling basin or anything like this, he said they don’t do it. The just pump her right out of the creek, its clean water.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, the creek is by the town.
President Stimmel stated, the creek is by the town, it runs right through town. Dave is there anything else you want to add to what we’re, thoughts?
Dave Scott stated, no I think that pretty much covers it.
President Stimmel stated, sorry to interrupt you Steve but I thought everybody ought to hear what that trip was worth, I mean, you know, I mean we went out of our, it was a good trip, it was informational, the guy was extraordinarily nice to us. We tried to get a tour of the facility and he was not having that, he wouldn’t let us underground or back in the plant but that’s just a characteristic of the company.
Commissioner Steve Burton stated, and part of the reason is and Rob is no different it’s, there in business to make money and there out there in competition with other companies and it wasn’t in their best interest to show us their operation because they had nothing to benefit from doing that. He took time from his day to very politely and at length ask our questions and concerns that we have. And again my intent to be down there was just show concern for this county of what we were trying to get in, or what we might be getting into but let’s view this as possible a positive approach. I understand that there are people next to that that does directly affect them and I am very respectful of that but I also want White County to grow. Thank you.
President Stimmel stated, the other thing that I might point out Steve is that they had it’s a union facility and actually the wages were less as I recall what Mr. Bult’s proposing to pay. Yes.
Robert Ezra asked, could I speak again?
President Stimmel stated, sure please.
Robert Ezra stated, like I said Mr. Commissioner it’s not in his back yard so he really, all he cares about is the money part of it.
President Stimmel stated, Mr. Ezra I’m just going to ask you to state your name, I’m sorry.
Robert Ezra stated, I’m Robert Ezra.
President Stimmel stated, okay thanks.
Robert Ezra stated, um, all he cares about is the money part and I can see that but, but the county does need to grow but I’m just worried about my health and my wife’s and if it comes down to it I’ll just get a lawyer and do what I got to do.
President Stimmel stated, yes.
Robert Ezra stated, that’s about all I can do and say. Thank you.
President Stimmel stated, okay, thank you.
Susie Ezra stated, I’m Susie Ezra again and you said you saw that plant. Was the wind blowing 45 mph when you were there?
President Stimmel stated, it was probably blowing 20 Mrs. Ezra right over the top of us.
Susie Ezra stated, okay, okay. Was there a house that was like from here to here? No. Was the smoke blowing over that house?
President Stimmel stated, no.
Susie Ezra stated, no, no. See that’s what I’m afraid of.
President Stimmel stated, well there was no smoke actually there was only water vapor and it was…
Susie Ezra stated, well yes but there smoke that comes out of that stack.
President Stimmel stated, we didn’t see any smoke I got to tell you that.
Susie Ezra stated, yes, but there is, anyway at 45 mph, I studied this but at 45 mile winds like today and the dust and everything comes. Were you there when there were 45 mile winds?
President Stimmel stated, no ma’am.
Susie Ezra stated, no, and did you see, of course then you couldn’t see the dust and everything coming because you weren’t there when there was 45 mile winds and you didn’t see the house that was right there because they didn’t have all the winds, right?
President Stimmel stated, that’s correct.
Susie Ezra stated, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you. Mr. Harvey.
Harold Harvey stated, Harold Harvey, I’m a Monon resident, have been all my life. Um, I have some questions for the board that I don’t know that have been asked, this is the first meeting I’ve been to. I don’t know how many tons of coal this outfit uses a day, I don’t know where they get their coal, um, I don’t know where they ship their lime to and the reason I ask these questions are I don’t know of a coal mine within a hundred miles so it’s got to be coming a hundred miles any how. They get it from southern Indiana.
Charlie Mellon stated, all them’s in that 30, ones he’s supposed to answer.
Harold Harvey stated, okay, and if the limes going to steel mills the closest is 70 miles away and the question I ask is if they’re bringing the coal in by truck at 20 tons to a truck a railroad car holds a hundred tons plus bringing it in by rail and see if they’ll make a commitment to bring it in by rail, see if they will make a commitment to ship their product out by rail and lets get a hundred and fifty trucks off our roads. I understand that the stone that they’re going to mine as far as lime stone that is normally hauled out and we already have 4 quarries hauling through the Town of Monon now, 2 from Francesville, and 2 from Monon plus we have a hundred garbage trucks a day coming from the north and south and it only takes 25 trucks each direction to make a 100 trucks and then we have the trailer plant and we also have the plant going into Reynolds and right now we don’t need any more trucks, period. I thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thanks Harold. Yes, Linda.
Linda Eckert stated, just 2 things, I know get to the podium. Linda Eckert, 2 things the people that live in St. Genevieve had a choice, they chose to live where they live and they chose to live next to that plant. We don’t have a choice, all right. That’s a big difference, their town grew with that plant. Monon is not going to be able to grown with this plant at this time, it’s going to be a big adjustment. The other thing and I, this is just on the side, I believe the St. Genevieve plant is 375 miles and I believe it’s a good model to go see. One question I have to ask, why didn’t you go 90 miles to the Gary plants also and see the bad side?
President Stimmel stated, to see the bad side, my answer to that question Linda would be the fact that that’s one of the plants I believe was shut down by IDEM…
Linda Eckert stated, IDEM.
President Stimmel stated, IDEM excuse me, that was run by Vulcan and incurred a 3 ½ million dollar fine.
Linda Eckert stated, that’s fine, don’t we need to see both sides, don’t we need to see both sides here…
President Stimmel stated, I understand the, I understand the other…
Linda Eckert stated, that’s my point. Why didn’t you see that?
President Stimmel stated, never mind, okay.
Linda Eckert asked, why didn’t you want to see the bad?
President Stimmel stated, I read about it a lot. Thank you.
Bryan Rinker stated, Bryan Rinker, Town of Monon. Um, I think off of Linda’s last point, adjustment, that’s the key work right there, I think there’s been an adjustment to the whole situation as we evolve with this. I am in a position that we do need to evolve with this and move forward with it. Getting more information on the process, listen to it objectively and as we go forward be objective to the benefits, likely benefits to a project.
President Stimmel stated, thank you. Mr. Bult I’m going to ask you to do me a favor. I’m going to ask the boards indulgence with this a little bit and I know you’ve heard a lot and I understand you’ve got a lot of responses you may want to make but one of the things I’m struggling with is the fact that I’ve been handed a lot of information and I haven’t had the chance to look at and I wondered if it would be in the boards best interest to take 10 or 15 minutes here and at least scan this stuff or do you want to just go on and here testimony and…
Rob Bult stated, all the questions that have been asked and raised to date are in these information packets.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right. Jerry do you have something?
Jerry Thompson stated, I guess just for the time being the thing I don’t, I didn’t like to hear was the remarks made about Steve Burton and it basically fit for the commissioners and Dave Stimmel and Dave Scott. I know the commissioners do care about everybody in White County. I know all 3 of them well. They’re doing a very good job for us whether it be the person from the furthest point from this stone quarry to the person that’s next door and I didn’t appreciate that lady’s comment or that gentleman’s comment about only money in mind, I know better than that for those people.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Jerry.
Rob Bult asked, you wanted to take a break?
President Stimmel stated, not especially wanted to take a break but I wanted to give the board time to digest some of this. Is that your pleasure or do you just want to go ahead and hear Mr. Bult’s response? How do you guys want to…
Charlie Mellon stated, why don’t we get all the opposition first. That lady with her hand up here.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Who had their hand up that wanted to speak?
Francis Clark stated, I did earlier but I was not sworn in because I didn’t think I was going to speak.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Francis Clark stated, I apologize.
President Stimmel stated, we can handle it
Attorney Altman swore in Francis Clark.
Francis Clark stated, thank you I apologize for not doing it at the beginning.
President Stimmel stated, no problem.
Francis Clark stated, my name’s Francis Clark, I live on 100 East, the corner of 100 East and Monon Road, which is a half a mile away from the proposed lime plant. I’m not happy about it because of everything that I’ve heard and I have a lot of unanswered questions myself and I’m just asking you and, to take more time, is what I’m asking from the board. You’ve been presented more information, you’ve heard, you know, from both sides but I just feel for you to make a sound vote, a good vote to say you to educate yourselves on all this information in your hand tonight. I’m just asking that you would table it until you have time to digest everything and felt that you and you’re going to vote with a good conscience that you are doing the right thing for people in White County and for the people in Monon. And I know they’re aren’t you know, 400 people or 4300 people that live on that little, tiny road there, I know it’s just a handful of people but still we’re still part of the community too and I just want to say, so thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you very much, very much. Yes sir. Mr. Mosher you had your hand up earlier and we missed you.
Fred Mosher stated, my names Fred Mosher and whether we get that or not I’m mainly concerned about water. What are we going to do, what insurance do we have that they’re not going to have a crack in a, or somewhere and drain our wells around there. Most of the private wells are only about a hundred foot deep and they’re going 300. I think everybody in the neighborhood’s got a reason for concern there and I know up around, up north there when prudential put in that irrigation system why they went ahead and done something about putting wells in. I mean Denny Clark’s here’s got a bunch of cattle and I’ve got a bunch of cattle and, create a problem.
President Stimmel stated, very good, thanks Mr. Mosher.
Fred Mosher stated, that’s the only thing I’ve got to say.
President Stimmel stated, thank you very much. Anybody else? Well why don’t we give the board 10 or 15 minutes to at least look at this information if that’s all right.
Attorney Altman stated, we will reconvene here at 9:30.
President Stimmel stated, 9:30 if that’s all right. I believe Mr. Bult had some responses to a lot of input that was given tonight. I think it’s fair to give him an opportunity to start with that right now.
Rob Bult stated, Rob Bult. Just a couple of comments and I’m going to call some people up to speak. Regarding some of Mr. Burton’s comments regarding a tour you’d want, water usage, this plant will not consume any water in the process. Water will be used for dust suppression but not in the process of calcining stone. You had mentioned the plant that you were looking at, 30 year old technology, our fuel spec is much more astringent probably than the plant you had looked at. They were able to use a blend of coals and pet coke, probably at a much higher sulfur limit then this plant will be much more environmental friendly. You talked about 30 year old technology or he did, this is state of the art. This is…
President Stimmel stated, I have one question, excuse me Mr. Bult. And Keith the guy we talked to at Mississippi Lime did not explain what is petroleum or liquid coke.
Rob Bult stated, well it’s not liquid coke, petroleum coke is…
President Stimmel asked, petroleum coke?
Rob Bult stated, right. Is a byproduct of the manufacturing of oil.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Rob Bult stated, for the process of oil.
President Stimmel stated, so I’m having …
Rob Bult stated, it’s a high sulfur fuel.
President Stimmel asked, like an asphalt type produce or look, consistency?
Rob Bult stated, exactly. Correct.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Rob Bult stated, it comes out of the refining process.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right.
Rob Bult stated, again all the question that have been raised tonight and previous nights are answered in the packets. Linda had made a comment you know, Monon won’t grow to this plant, I feel just the opposite. Monon will grow with this plant. Now I’d like to introduce 2 gentlemen from the Indiana Mining or Minerals and Aggregate Association, Mr. Pugh, assistant director and also Mr. Jones director.
Robert Jones stated, good evening, I’m Robert Jones and I’m the Executive Director of the Indiana Mineral Aggregate Association and that’s a trade association here in Indiana that is comprised of producer members like Vulcan Materials, Hansen, Hansen Material Service and others and presently in the process is Synergy Corporation, their joining our association. The reason I point that out is that uh, the other companies, Vulcan, Hansen and many other companies, well there’s 43 member companies presently in Indiana and that comprises of 160 plants in Indiana. They are held to a reclamation program that we have called our environment stewardship council and it has guiding principles and Howard Pugh is going to give you a little tutorial on that real quick and that’s what we would hold Synergy should they go ahead and complete the process of joining the association. That’s the reclamation program that they would have to adhere with us.
Howard Pugh stated, my names Howard Pugh and I’m the site review coordinator for the environmental stewardship council which is the self regulating environmental program for the IMAA and I want to just hit some of the tall poles of this reclamation process, if we may. Okay, the program, we’ll just kind of hit some of the tall poles and give you a little overview of what’s involved in the program and it’s a commitment by all of the member companies at their facilities some 160 facilities in 69 counties in the state. It’s a self regulating program that we put into effect back in 1999 that suggest guidelines for operation procedures, reclamation, and beautification. It in no way regulates the functions that are regulated by the state and other agencies such as water discharge, water withdraw, air quality, dust, solid waste, wet lands, and historical preservation. The program is set up uh, to be very, uh, well managed there is a board of directors that’s uh, provided, they represent people from the industry who are member participants, a technical advisory committee is made up of a group of individuals that have technical expertise in engineering, landscape architecture, geology, aggregate quarry operations that can advise on technical aspects, site review team is available to go out and visit the facilities when problems arise and suggest the problem solving, remedies, site review board that’s where I step in, I’m required to make at least one visit a year to every participating facility to make sure their activities are in compliance with the guiding principles and that’s basically our rules and regulations. Any guiding principles we spell out the membership procedures, all IMAA members have to participate in the ESC guiding principles, we also except non IMAA producers to participate in the program. We have different provisions and definitions laid out in the program. We are looking at operational practices, how the mining’s done, how the other property is treated. We look at reclamation practices and we have reporting requirements. Each producer is required to report to us on an annual basis how much they’ve effected, how much they’ve reclaimed and I go out and check that also, I conduct an annual report. In the operational practices we have put together a best practices from about 15 different mining reclamation programs around the country, we hired a consulting firm to analyze some of those and pick out the best of the best so we address mining methods, setback and buffer zones, ingress and egress to the property, overburdened removal and the storage of the overburdened so it’s less intrusive then it was 30 years ago and we do look at environmental protection strictly from a very simplistic method and that’s how we handle the material around on the property so we’re not making problems with air and water. The reclamation practices, we ask that each producer member commit to reclamation and there are guidelines laid out in the guiding principles, specific requirements for high wall stabilization including benching and split drilling, various things like that to stabilize the stone high walls, soil stabilization rating, revegetation commitments, reforestation, and the removal of the equipment and the removal of the equipment and noncompatible structures. All of this information is contained in the, uh, in their application and their reclamation request that they make when they join the association and they prepare a couple of maps for us that have a lot of detail and showing how they’re going to go about mining the property and what it will look like at the end of the process. Now this process does take awhile at some of these locations. You don’t come in and run a quarry for 2 or 3 years and leave, you’re going to be there for some time. This is a typical map a, the detail is not quite as good when we get a picture like that but it shows an overview of the area, the detail of the property is laid on top of the aerial photo, we have all the adjoining property lines, other features, where the berms are, the area that will be mined first, permanent water impoundments, um, the inset on the right gives us the location from a topo so we can see the topographical features, horizontal and vertical control, there’s some, a little insets there around the map showing the berm structure and slopes to the water, map scale, township, section, and range. This particular map has a little inset there on the side showing a requirement for that local community for some screen plantings and the height of those screenings. Here we’ve taken some pictures of a quarry out in a rural area. This is not a quarry that’s in the heart of the city where some producer has spent millions of dollars to beautify it. This is a quarry that’s being reclaimed out in a rural area and in hopes that it’ll be a better looking piece of property, next picture. And you can see that’s what, it was take of about the same vantage point that building in the background after the grating and the pit filled up with water, we have a very nice looking quarry site out in a rural community, next picture. This is a picture of a sand and gravel operation that was also in reclamation process again in a rural setting, not in downtown Indianapolis or Lafayette where the developers have spent millions, this is just where the operator had sloped the ground to the required angle and is in the process of getting it revegetated, you can see what a respectable looking piece of property that turned out to be. This is one of our member operations down in southern Indiana, the is a sand and gravel facility that’s been there for about 50 years and they have an ongoing reclamation program and it’s a very good site and development, you hardly know that that’s an aggregate operation so we’re rather proud of what people are doing with these properties. When we get done with a property, a lot of different uses wildlife habitat, residential of course is in big demand today, commercial property, and even recreational. At this time we have about 40,000 acres in the ESC program, 13,000 acres were pre 99 effective, 3500 acres have been effective since 99, that’s when our program went into affect. We’ve reclaimed nearly 2,000 acres at these 160 locations. We represent 72 quarries and 88 sand and gravel pits so it’s a good cross section of the aggregate mining business in Indiana and that’s a little overview of the ESC program and I thank you for your time.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Pugh. You have more?
Rob Bult stated, yes, Rob Bult, as Mr. Pugh stated, uh we have submitted our application to join their organization. We expect to be part of the organization with ESC. At this time I’d like to introduce Tom Rarick with Environmental Resource Services. He has, well he can list his credentials but he is part of our environmental consultant team and he will explain again, part of the IDEM permitting process and also explain a little more in detail on environmental impact study and why we’re not required to do and how a lot of those things are covered through the IDEM permitting process.
President Stimmel stated, thank you.
Tom Rarick stated, my names Tom Rarick, I’m a partner with the Environmental Resources Managements, environmental consulting firm, environmental engineer by back ground. Just a quick back ground, I spent about 20 years in government, over half of that with Federal EPA administering environmental air quality programs, I also served as the assistant commission for the office of air quality with the state, with IDEM and also deputy commissioner for a number of years but I spent the last 13 years in environmental consulting primarily dealing with air quality practice and that’s what I’ll talk to you about this evening, um and predominately in the State of Indiana located in Indianapolis. The permitting process, first of all is not a trivial process as I’m sure you’ve come to realize. The permit that will be issued as part of this process will be a document, possibly a couple hundred pages of very detailed requirements and the permit will have as its base a set of state and federal regulations that must be met. Permits are not issued without including requirements that are already there and a myriad of state and federal regulations. Secondly the will have to meet what is called a prevention of significant deterioration, permit program um, and that includes the requirement for best available control technology but, but I’d also like to comment a little bit about another major component of that it doesn’t find it’s way as a permit condition but it’s an important finding as part of that permit process. We establish air quality standards, detect public health for pollutants like carbon monoxide and fine particulates etcetera. As part of this process when the design is completed and is situated in this particular site we mush do air quality modeling, we must demonstrate that the result of building this plant will not violate the ambient air quality standards. In fact the permit program goes beyond that it sets increments that are smaller than that so that the air quality is not degraded above a certain increment. So the issue of the permit and the review of the permit do deal with this issue of adequate air quality. The program also has a number of other things that are established, we mentioned a little bit about environmental impact statements, and in fact the air quality evaluation as part of this review process in fact goes beyond all the requirements of the environmental impact statements as they are explicit to air quality issues. We look at visibility and we look at the impact of the air pollutants of the soils and vegetation. There are those kinds of evaluations that are also part and partial of the process. At the end of the day when the permit is issued, the permit also must include, must include a number of monitoring requirements, compliance obligations, the facility a part of the permit must certify compliance with all of those requirements within a permit on an annual basis. It pays permit fees to fund the agency to in fact inspect it so a part of their, a part of their process will be to do that once the facility’s built and operational and I would hope that you not be left with the impression at the end of the day, this permit has a lot of open doors, it’s a very rigorous process resulting in a permit that will include a number of protective measures. I think with that if you’ve got questions, I’d be happy any questions that you might have.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Rarick. Mr. Bult any more?
Rob Bult stated, I want to make a closing remark. All the question that have been raised tonight have been answered in what you’ve been submitted. Why are we here tonight? We are here for a special exemption for my, most of the conversation has been around the building and operation of this lime plant which some, is within the BZA scope and a lot if it is not, we cannot and will not build this lime plant when we are issued a special exception to month, there are still many permits that have to be put in place, there is a tremendous amount of diligence that has left to be done, plant design, um, plant layout final determination, um, you know the list goes on and on but you know standing here as a business man, until I actually have an address, place to plant, you know the future expenditure of large amounts of funds to finish some of this final engineering I cannot initiate until I have an address for this plant and in order to have that address we must have a special exemption tonight from the BZA. A few other things to keep in mind 7 miles north of the proposed lime plant is Pulaski County Lime, in Pulaski County, that’s one of 7 counties in the State of Indiana that has no permit. We could, you know, once we have IDEM permitting could construct this plant. There are quality reserves in the Pulaski County area. Again the 2 existing mining operations that are outside the town limits of Monon, they are zoned Industrial 2 and actually I don’t think the Vulcan property is, I believe they are grandfathered and I believe they are still agriculture but the Hansen property is zoned I-2 and they also have the special exemption for mining. What that means is if they were going to get in the lime business, they would not have to go through this process, they are already zoned and have a special exemption to construct a lime operation. That’s all I have.
President Stimmel stated, all right, thanks Mr. Bult. Board members you haven’t had much to say. Charlie, oh I’m sorry Mr. Bumbleburg. You have to shout out Joe sometimes.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, well it’s getting past my bedtime so I’ll be quick.
President Stimmel stated, I couldn’t agree more.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, I suspect that all of you have wondered why I have been fussing about the timing here tonight and there is an awfully good reason and we could talk about IDEM and all that we want. I applaud the people from the association. Associations do wonderful work but the statute of the State of Indiana talks about what we are doing here tonight and if you do not click into the record a recordable commitment by these people about what they are going to do then you will have no authority in the future to do it. In fact commitment under the statute has to take effect at the approval of the special exception and that approval would be tonight if you vote. I have not yet seen in all of this paperwork an appropriate, recordable, bind able commitment to do all of the things that you’ve been told this petitioner will do. You have an obligation, a duty, and a right to insist on that before you grant any blank checks in this matter. Thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Joe. Board members, anybody else in the audience? Okay, thank you. Gerald any comments?
Gerald Cartmell stated, I don’t think so.
President Stimmel asked, Dave?
Gerald Cartmell stated, to much to decipher here.
President Stimmel asked, Charlie?
Charlie Mellon stated, well I hate to keep the people here but I got about probably a half and hour or an hour. I’ve got 2 notes and a lot of it’s been talked about tonight and Rob I read all the papers, Monticello, Herald, Lafayette, Monon, seems to me like your favoring the community of Monon and you don’t seem to care to much about the people out there that’s got asthma, breathing problems and everything else and another thing out there on 100, Jim Clark’s family’s been there raising cattle for years and I’m an old farmer, raised cattle and hogs all my life and all that noise that’s going to come out of there is going to spook them cattle and Jim’s fence your going to say may not be able to hold them but they’ll hold them without your noise and if they get out they’ll be in Buffalo before you can round them up. There’s a lot of things like that and as far as the pollution and everything the plant in Wilmington Illinois was closed, you story in the paper was, was old equipment and old technology may have lasted 50 years I don’t know how old it was. But your plant if you get it okayed, don’t you think there'll be new technology going the same way there was in the past and it’ll be the same thing. We got 2 dead horses in White County already. Bio down at Reynolds and the Ethanol plant down there and if a plant like that of yours goes in and something goes haywire you loose your permits, going to close it, there’s 3, 3 another dead horse in the county and another thing, that there, that there one that’s closing in Wilmington Illinois wasn’t closed on account of what you said because I talked to a lady that had a sister that lived 18miles east of there and it was closed on account of toxic fumes, pollution, every thing else, and I believe that story. I’m not saying I’m not doubting you in the word to much but there’s a lot of things and another thing, as far as the county, it’s not 18 miles from your plant to the beach and we got a new owner over there and that supposedly makes Monticello which is in White County 60 million dollars a year. When you talk about helping out the county as far as Burton talked about it, you got to look at that once in a while. If the county don’t get that 60 million dollars what’s going to happen to the area around. And I could just keep going on and on and, but I won’t.
President Stimmel stated, help yourself Charlie.
Charlie Mellon stated, well I guess I’ve reported the article in the paper and the old, the older people on the east side of the farm with allergy’s, asthma will be fighting the pollution which will be affecting them the rest of their life. Some of them ain’t going to live very long. I happen to be probably the oldest one in here too and your plant will be gone, we hope it you pass, if you get this thing without any but the repertory problems is going to just keep adding up and there ain’t to much that you can do about it. And then the only good thing that I got of your presentations the first meeting you was here, with the Area Plan, if you remember I asked from the hall, from back there if you was going to have tax abatement, that’s the only thing that’s good about that. Everything else that comes into White County has got tax abatement and you people know what that is and then another big thing that the county is pushing awful hard is tiff petitions, not petitions, tiff districts. There’s one over there at Wolcott that’s been in for 4 or 5 years. Hasn’t made the county, that’s taking money away from the county, it’s just for that little area that they’ve taken in. Monticello’s going wild now over because they can’t get some that could be got because the people won’t sign up for it but they get on south 6th Street where there’s nothing out there yet and they’re going to get it all through there before anybody, industry goes out there and this and that. And I could go on and on but maybe, I hope you got my feeling. The biggest thing is I been in the rural area almost all my life till the last 13 years and I moved into Monticello. And I’ve learned a lot in the 13 years and I’ve been around quite a few years and know what the landfill. I was against the landfill up there with the rest of them in Liberty Township but that proved out that we was wrong. They’re making more money, the county’s getting more money out of the landfill then anything else. Liberty Township has got one of the best fire departments in the county just because they’re getting 35 cents a ton out of the landfill. Somebody mentioned was you going to do anything with Monon to help them out with a fee that everything that goes out of the landfill, somebody asked that question that didn’t get the answer and as far as the City of Monon something needs to be done up there and I doubt if your employment all of it will come out of Monon because you’ll surely have some engineers that know a little more about most the people that’s in Monon on stuff like that and uh, I could go on and on.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s all right.
President Stimmel asked, all right?
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s good.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, I hate to be the one to bring this up but we do have a lot in front of us, I feel like Aunt Bee on the show Mayberry, I don’t know how many people saw the show where she was on jury duty and they were just so sure this guy was in the wrong and she needed more information, and she needed more information, well I feel like I’m Aunt Bee, I need more information.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes, I’d say so too.
Jerry Thompson stated, I am leaning towards it, I am not going to disguise it, I’m leaning towards it but there is a few more things I feel like we haven’t had answered. I hate to see it table for another month, I might be planting corn and, but I don’t suppose we can have a special meeting, can we Diann?
Director Weaver stated, I believe we can, can’t we Jerry?
Attorney Altman stated, yes, sure can.
President Stimmel asked, how time do we need and would it work Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, that’s where I’m at.
Attorney Altman stated, if it’s announced at this evenings meeting you can reconvene in 10 days.
President Stimmel stated, within 10 days. How does the Board feel about that?
Charlie Mellon stated, that’d give us more time to go through that information that he put out.
Jerry Thompson stated, I do have a quick question. Why haven’t we seen a topography map?
Gerald Cartmell stated, it’s in there.
Jerry Thompson asked, it is?
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, this will help you.
Jerry Thompson asked, right here that we had tonight?
President Stimmel stated, I think so.
Jerry Thompson stated, well maybe I’m asking…
Gerald Cartmell stated, it’s in this book, in this book.
President Stimmel stated, it’s in the book, okay.
Rob Bult stated, it’s in the booklet and plus you have a larger version in there.
President Stimmel stated, during the research there was some discussion about the fact that, maybe the thing to do is to table this for a week or 10 days to give everybody on the board a chance to digest what is for them. And to reconvene, at least the thought was is to reconvene and not take anymore testimony, just vote, one way or the other.
Charlie Mellon stated, that’d be better.
President Stimmel stated, that’s one way to handle it, okay so we’re just, I’m throwing that out to the board. Uh, we can reconvene in 10 days everybody will have had a chance to do this, Diann can get her public notice out, make it a bona fide meeting.
Director Weaver asked, do we have to put a public notice out?
Attorney Altman stated, sure would, yes.
President Stimmel stated, I think I would.
Director Weaver stated, we can do it.
President Stimmel stated, but I think the format would be is that we would prefer not, I think we would just set it up, we’re just not going to take anymore public testimony so if you’ve got a problem and you want to have your voice heard, now’s the time. Okay that would one thing I’d do.
Harold Harvey stated, Harold Harvey again. Uh is it possible that the answers to the questions that you were handed can be published so we can, everybody can read them?
Charlie Mellon stated, he said they’re in this book.
Attorney Altman stated, yes.
Director Weaver stated, they’re available in my office tomorrow.
Harold Harvey stated, in the newspaper.
President Stimmel asked, can we do that?
Attorney Altman stated, yes, we could.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Attorney Altman stated, and the only thing is, is we just got it this evening or we would certainly share.
Harold Harvey stated, that’s fine, do it in a day or two, do it sometime before the meeting so everybody…
Attorney Altman stated, but if you come in to Diann’s office tomorrow morning…
Bryan Rinker stated, bring it to Monon.
Attorney Altman stated, or, and maybe Dave or Dave can do that and bring that to Monon so you can do that.
President Stimmel stated, but there'll be several copies available at the town hall, I would say, Brian would that be all right, Dave and I got a couple we could make them available…
Director Weaver stated, I can make more.
President Stimmel stated, whoever’s interested Diann could make a couple more copies to make them available.
Bryan Rinker stated, so that the people that ask these questions could see the answers.
President Stimmel stated, absolutely.
Attorney Altman stated, I agree, that’s a good suggestion.
President Stimmel stated, absolutely.
Attorney Altman stated, so that if it were one of the, are persons either one of the Dave’s took one to the Monon newspaper and you guys copied it and made it available.
President Stimmel stated, this is a months worth of the Monon newspaper.
Attorney Altman stated, all I guess I’m trying to say to respond…
President Stimmel stated, I’m sorry Jerry.
Attorney Altman stated, I’m trying to give people here an idea what we would be approaching to do so you do have this right away.
President Stimmel stated, Mr. Bumbleburg you had a question or a response.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, Mr. Thompson asked a question a while ago.
Attorney Altman stated, come up to the mic please Joe I know you got a good voice but it just doesn’t pick back there.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, Mr. Thompson ask a question about topographic maps a minute ago and I thought I hears somebody say it’s in this book and I would like for them to identify where it is in the book so that we all might be able to look at. Which plan is the topographic? Is that what the nature of the question is?
Jerry Thompson stated, it was my question, I guess, I’m not an engineer, just a basic farmer but this is not what I’m asking to see. I guess, I’m sorry, I might of used the wrong terminology. Do you call this a topography map?
Rob Bult stated, yes.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
President Stimmel asked, Mr. Bult is this what your thing about also?
Rob Bult stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, this looks like its got elevations and…
Jerry Thompson stated, I guess what I’m asking, whatever the terminology may be I’m sorry, it’s kind of like a side view where you’ll have mounds, where you’ll have, kind of like a side picture.
Rob Bult stated, so you side view of the site plan.
Jerry Thompson asked, is that, is that reasonable? Is that possible?
Attorney Bumbleburg asked, do you want the contours? Is that what you’re asking for?
Jerry Thompson stated, similar to that I guess, yes.
President Stimmel stated, Jerry, excuse me, take a look at that would you please.
Jerry Thompson asked, well where in the world have I been?
President Stimmel stated, well, no this is, I think this is the only one that was available or at least the one I had.
Director Weaver asked, is that the only copy we got?
Rob Bult stated, yes.
Dave Armbruster stated, I have plenty of copies.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right. I mean that looks like it’s got the contours on it to me.
Jerry Thompson stated, all right I thought maybe…
Attorney Bumbleburg asked, is that going to made available to the public, Dave?
President Stimmel stated, absolutely.
Jerry Thompson stated, I’m not making this real clear, I’ll quit.
President Stimmel stated, no your fine.
Jerry Thompson stated, but it doesn’t show the lay of the land, per se, I guess, maybe I’m splitting hairs.
Attorney Altman stated, this is on the original map.
Jerry Thompson stated, maybe it’s not even an issue, I shouldn’t have brought it up probably but…
Several people are talking at once.
Jerry Thompson asked, it’s basically this correct?
Director Weaver stated, on a larger scale it looks like.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes, I basically kind of wanted an actual ground view.
Director Weaver stated, I don’t need one.
President Stimmel stated, I’ve got one.
Jerry Thompson stated, maybe there’s not one to be had, I don’t know.
Director Weaver stated, we need for the file. Do you have one?
Jerry Thompson asked, am I making sense to anybody on the board?
President Stimmel stated, yes you are.
Jerry Thompson stated, I feel like I’m talking to a post here.
Several people are talking at once.
President Stimmel asked, Mr. Bumbleburg do you have a copy? I just gave them to him.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, I have a copy, Mr. Altman provided it to me.
President Stimmel stated, thank you. Do you have any more comments at this time?
Charlie Mellon stated, he didn’t hear you, I guess not.
President Stimmel stated, there’s 2 things that I’m hearing Mr. Bult that I like some response to just before we go any further. One of them is the lighting issue because you know, even though Linda and I may disagree on something’s, I guarantee I agree with her on the lights and honestly it is, it’s, I made statements if I lived out there I think I’d know what I’d be doing with those lights. They wouldn’t be shining in my eyes very long but, but I guess something like that in writing that needs to be addressed to be able to indicate this is down lights, that they’re not going to get outside the property, some way to address that issue and the second thing is if I can double up on you here, the other thing is, is the water issue and I’ll, I’ll emphasize with anybody who’s talked about that, I had a brother law that lives over by Prudential when they were pumping water over there for all those irrigation wells you guys don’t know anything about that but you know, he had 160’ well and he next thing you know that sucker was down to about 30’.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, he didn’t have anything, now they went around and they re-drilled wells and did everything for everybody but it was a legal battle quite frankly, you know, they swore up and down they’d never but they did. So those things concern me in the sense that the water really is an issue. You take somebody’s, you know, a guys got 16 acres across the road, got a 12’ sand point, okay.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, and I mean there are sand points I’m sure out in that area, there, you know, all of a sudden, yes, I mean his pumps running all the time, he’s got a dry well. There needs to be some way in my mind to address those things as they occur from neighboring land owners. I’m not trying to get you to write a blank check for everybody within a mile. That’s not what I’m saying, I’m just saying that you got to contiguous people who are, people who can reasonably assume or who could be affected by this that you know and that’s not to say that Vulcan Material Services aren’t doing the same darn thing. Okay.
Rob Bult stated, Rob Bult, standard practice in the mining industry is you that what you talk about, I mean within a reasonable area if a landowners well does run dry it’s responsibility of the aggregate company to re-drill that well. Now all indications we have I believe hydrology studies being done, is the type of rock and I’m not a geologist but bear with me uh, there is not a lot of seepage it holds the water fairly well so we do not expect that but if we do have a landowner or homeowner well run dry within a reasonable distance.
President Stimmel stated, excuse me.
Attorney Altman stated, please turn the phone off.
President Stimmel asked, who’s got the phone?
Some one in the audience stated, it’s in my purse, I’m sorry I will shut if off.
President Stimmel stated, would you please.
Some one in the audience stated, sure.
President Stimmel state, we sure asked everybody to do that before….
Some one in the audience stated, I’m sorry, not on purpose.
President Stimmel stated, we’ll give you a break here. Thank you. Go ahead.
Rob Bult stated, that is part of being a good corporate neighbor, being a good, so there is not a policy set in stone but that is a definite concern and we do address those concerns.
President Stimmel asked, in what way? And here again I’m not trying to belabor the point but to Mr. Bumbleburg’s point I think a long of it is about, you know some of this stuff needs to be documented in writing. This is the policy.
Rob Bult stated, you have me on record.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Rob Bult stated, you also, regarding the lighting issue, I had made the comment at the town meeting last week that, I don’t see how you can make anything brighter than the trailer parking lot.
President Stimmel stated, I agree.
Rob Bult stated, that things incredible, anyway um, we are governed by the national electric code and by Emshaw, mining safety and health administration on our lighting requirements. Also on the INDOT intersection you know we are governed by INDOT on our entrance way and exit way onto 421 on light.
President Stimmel stated, you’ll forgive me but that doesn’t, that doesn’t make, it doesn’t make me warm and fuzzy by following the national electric code in the sense that I don’t know what it is number 1, number 2, it still doesn’t address the issue of you know how those lights are going to shine. All I’m asking is to, some commitment…
Rob Bult stated, they’ll shine in outer point, understand the majority of the operation both on the stone quarry side and the lime plant side. The stone quarry, once the quarry’s opened up and developed a permanent crushing plant put on the site, probably within 3 years permanent crushing plant would installed that would be 60’ down below elevation so all of that lighting for that plant will be below elevations.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Rob Bult stated, the average depth on the lime plant will be 25 to 30’ so the majority of that plant will be below elevation. The truck load out would be, the loading silos and the conveyors up to it will be at elevation, that will be light but again that is based on the plant layout and the contour of the ground in that area, there’s trees in that area, there’s elevation changes so a lot of that will be hidden.
President Stimmel asked, it’ll be on the west side then won’t it?
Rob Bult stated, correct.
President Stimmel stated, according to what I understand.
Rob Bult stated, correct.
President Stimmel stated, okay, those are the 2 questions I had. Sorry for the delay.
Attorney Altman stated, got a question.
President Stimmel stated, Charlie, I’m sorry Mr. Ward. Rob is that all you had right now? Okay thank you.
Charles Ward stated, I’m still backed up on one issue.
President Stimmel stated, sure.
Charles Ward stated, lighting is a thing, yes the crossing that I was telling you about at 16 and 421, nobody has yet come up and said lets do something with that crossing. You help on that situation did you have to go to get your bypasses and your turning lanes and so forth like that. Can you put any weight on that fact because we have a road width at the west side of town that comes to that intersection, we have all the Wanatah and that comes out of the quarries going north. We have the landfill trucks that come to that, that go east. That intersection is just a light that says you don’t have to stop and if you sit there and watch the traffic come through there, the school busses right not, a lot of them go uptown to the intersection where there is a light in order to go onto the highway because that still is not a safe factor and anybody that’s got a big truck drives around that corner and other trucks coming your asking for a big problem right there.
President Stimmel stated, Charlie I believe your issue is going to be addressed and I’m trying to say what you’re going to say.
Charles Ward stated, well.
President Stimmel stated, hang on just a second please.
Charles Ward stated, okay.
President Stimmel asked, is that what you’re going to address?
Bryan Rinker asked, do you want me to come up?
President Stimmel stated, yes please.
Bryan Rinker stated, Bryan Rinker, um, the town has been looking at that intersection, as we all know there has been some increased economic activity around an intersection that will have the traffic flow, egress of that and so INDOT has been communicated with on that issue and we will be talking about and getting a highway study for the increased flow.
Charles Ward stated, that’s fine but keep one thing in mind, I carried a petition probably 15 years ago to try and get something done with that intersection with all the trucks and so forth that come through that intersection and you just now got it open so there’s got to be more teeth put into it because of the kids safety. The lighting is an issue, yes but when I say that that’s only one block around that curve, you just go there and sit there, in fact we had the Town of Monon cop, I had representing which is uh, Mrs., she just went off…
President Stimmel asked, Carol Stradling?
Charles Ward stated, no.
An audience member asked, Katie Wolf?
Charles Ward stated, Katie Wolf sat there at that intersection and I said to them, sit here and just imagine you’ve got 60 kids in your bus and you want to take off around that corner. You know what I told them? The only way anything will ever get done on that intersection is if something happens to your personal kids or your family.
President Stimmel stated, yes.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes, that’s right.
Charles Ward stated, and I’m telling you take light in that intersection right there and it’s just a simple 4 way stop because we have no way of slowing down traffic until it gets clear down town.
President Stimmel stated, that’s a good point Charlie and I, Brian…
Charles Ward stated, and that’s more important then anything you guys have talked about if you’re going to put all these trucks on the road.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Charles Ward stated, is right there, you cannot stop them trucks and just sit there.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Charles Ward stated, take your time and go over there and just sit and watch the traffic come in from the north especially because from the south the light stops it. But you come to the north and I’ll guarantee you it’d scare you to death if you were driving a bus and you could understand why they all go up to the intersection to come out and that should not have to be.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right. Thanks very much Charlie, we appreciate your comments.
Charles Ward stated, and give us some more money.
President Stimmel stated, well in all honesty, Brian will back me up on this, I think there’s been some discussion, Mr. Whitlow can and Mr. what’s his name there…
Gerald Cartmell stated, how about Wiley.
President Stimmel stated, just kidding, Charlie, Dick next to them, I know there’s been some efforts on the part of the Town of Monon to involve Liberty Landfill or Waste Management, you know the other stone quarries which I don’t know that they’ve ever stepped up with anything either but you know and I’m sure you know it’d be up to Mr. Bult to decide whether he’s going to try to help there but the state, everybody Brian, they have been involved in this, have they not? And I thing there is going to be some action. I think Rosie was actually involved in that too.
Bryan Rinker stated, well as we said they are being communicated with, um waiting for the store, another store potentially went across the road to get that traffic flow in comply with that. But there has been discussion of a stop light there, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay, thank you.
Bryan Rinker stated, but INDOT has not made their highways to this point.
President Stimmel stated, Charlie honestly I couldn’t agree with you more and I think there’s a lot of people on the town board who would agree with you that that’s a really serious issue. You got a lot of kids crossing that highway and a lot of…
Charles Ward asked, do I have to come back up to make another statement?
President Stimmel stated, yes would you.
Charles Ward stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, just so it gets on the record, I’m sorry.
Attorney Altman stated, I tell Joe Bumbleburg he has to come up, you do too.
President Stimmel stated, yes, that’s right, if we’re going make Joe…
Charles Ward stated, the stop light is to my estimation the worst thing you can do there. All you do is back up traffic, go to a simple 4 way stop. I travel a lot of country in the past 15 years and there is nothing more effective out in an area like that than a stop, go, stop, go.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Charles Ward stated, that stop light just backs up everything and there again, take in mind you put a stoplight there and somebody’s on the one side and he wants to make a turn and everybody else wants to go straight through…
President Stimmel stated, yes.
Charles Ward stated, when does he turn, never, okay.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right thanks very much Charlie.
Gerald Cartmell asked, he’s thought that out hasn’t he? He’s worked on that.
Charlie Mellon stated, stop signs would be cheaper.
President Stimmel asked, do you want to say something Joe?
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, Mr. Altman took my name in vein there, I…
Several people were laughing.
Attorney Altman stated, excuse me.
President Stimmel stated, it’s getting late, I’ve got to get up early. What’s the Boards wishes, what do we think here?
Gerald Cartmell stated, I wish I wasn’t on the Board if you want to know the truth.
Several people were laughing.
President Stimmel stated, anybody want to change places I’m sure somebody would step down.
Attorney Altman stated, okay. Jerry do you have a motion to make?
President Stimmel asked, yes, do you want to make a motion or not?
Jerry Thompson stated, well yes I do. Um, I move, don’t have dates, don’t have a calendar in front of me. Um, I move we table this, excuse me?
Attorney Altman stated, today’s the 25th.
Jerry Thompson asked, yes, what would be a week from Thursday?
President Stimmel stated, we think we have to go 10 days.
Gerald Cartmell stated, we have to go 10 days.
Jerry Thompson stated, 10 days, 10 days, okay I’m sorry. I thought you said, I though you said 7 to 10 days, I didn’t hear.
Gerald Cartmell stated, not counting weekends, right.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, I don’t have a calendar either. I thought maybe I did.
Gerald Cartmell stated, get your cell phone out.
Attorney Altman stated, so if we did this on the 7th of April…
Jerry Thompson asked, that’s what day?
Attorney Altman stated, that would be Monday, that would give enough time to get something in both newspapers.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I got a fire meeting that night.
Director Weaver asked, Jerry, it has to be within 10 days or…
Attorney Altman stated, no more than.
Gerald Cartmell stated, Jerry I have a fire meeting, I have a fire meeting that night.
Charlie Mellon stated, he’s got a fire meeting.
President Stimmel asked, Joe?
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, that day would be bad because my partner Mr. Meyers a member of the city council in Lafayette…
Attorney Altman asked, the 8th, the 8th, a Tuesday?
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, Tuesday would be okay but the 7th would not.
President Stimmel stated, let’s go with Tuesday would be what the 4th? Or 11th?
Several people stated, the 8th.
Attorney Altman stated, the 8th of April.
President Stimmel stated, oh I’m looking at the wrong date, okay, sorry.
Attorney Altman stated, the 8th of April.
President Stimmel stated, Tuesday the 8th of April, we’d have another meeting then.
Charlie Mellon stated, I don’t think you’ll be planting then.
Jerry Thompson stated, no we won’t but can we…
Rob Bult stated, I thought it will be closed to public comment.
President Stimmel stated, it will be closed to public comment, I think is the way we want that.
Jerry Thompson stated, we can do that.
President Stimmel stated, we can do that, it’s up to you.
Jerry Thompson stated, I’m in favor of it if we can do that.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay, because I think we’ve got plenty enough here we…
Rob Bult asked, then why are we worried about Mr. Bumbleburg’s availability?
President Stimmel stated, I think they can be in attendance, they’re certainly welcome to be in attendance.
Jerry Thompson stated, so I move the 8th.
President Stimmel stated, okay, I’m working on it.
Jerry Thompson stated, which we act on the information that’s been presented.
President Stimmel stated, all right.
Jerry Thompson stated, 7:30.
President Stimmel stated, now the motions been made, I’m going to try to repeat it, okay is that we have a meeting specific to vote on this special exception on the 8th of April and that any public comment will have been made prior to that meeting in particular to this one. We got all the information, well how do you suggest it Charlie? Tell me how you don’t like it.
Charlie Mellon asked, well if your going to study for 10 days on that material he have us don’t you think there would be a little discussion on that?
Attorney Altman stated, doesn’t mean we can’t discuss it. We’re not received in evidence.
Charlie Mellon asked, well from the public?
Gerald Cartmell stated, other wise we can have a business, kind of like a business meeting amongst ourselves.
Charlie Mellon stated, oh okay, I didn’t understand it that way. Yes that’d be all right.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Charlie Mellon stated, I’ll still second it.
President Stimmel stated, all in favor say aye.
Board Members stated, aye.
President Stimmel stated, okay that’s what we’re going to do.
Gerald Cartmell stated, your vote don’t count.
Dave Scott stated, evidently not.
President Stimmel asked, any other questions for Mr. Bult? Anything we want to get answered I think we really, in all fairness to the public and everybody else, we need to get it answered now. Joe you’re gritting your teeth.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, well I’m…
President Stimmel stated, I’m trying to defer to you because I mean, I…
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, I think that Mr. Mellon has an interesting observation, you are closing the meeting to public discussion even though you are inviting, what in affect is a review of evidence that’s there and I just, I think Mr. Altman, he swore all you people in the beginning, I think that whatever you say, well that swearing becomes evidence in this matter Jerry and so once it, once you do that, um I think you have a real problem of anything, any new matters that have not been discussed, the matter of the booklet that has not really been determined by the general population. Boy I’ll tell you what Mr. Chairman I wouldn’t want to be the chairman of a committee that tries to muzzle down a crowd on that issue. I think you ought to rethink that one for sure.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Attorney Altman stated, I just disagree and I think we can proceed.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Attorney Altman stated, I don’t think we have to discuss it that night.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Attorney Altman stated, I think we can deliberate as we choose, as long as it’s in the public record and on record.
President Stimmel stated, the only thing that concerns me is the ability to be able to document some of these things and here again maybe some of these things, the thing I’m struggling with is reading all the documentation we currently have and being able to get questions answered and here again this speaks to not take testimony because that’s going to require testimony Mr. Bult somebody else to be able to get my questions answered.
Gerald Cartmell stated, that was my question.
Attorney Altman stated, you’ve either got them or you don’t.
Gerald Cartmell stated, that’s my question, if you go through this and, and over here something pops up, nobody’s covered, okay who do I ask, okay I’ve got to do here but I don’t want to, no pun intended but I don’t want to miss a stone here.
President Stimmel stated, here’s another option and that would be to limit public input to a certain amount of time, one hour…
Jerry Thompson asked, I was going to say are we allowed to put a time constrain on it?
Gerald Cartmell stated, now that might be okay.
President Stimmel stated, something like this, put some kind of time constraint on the thing so that we…
Jerry Thompson stated, cut it off.
President Stimmel asked, like that Charlie or…
Gerald Cartmell stated, Joe is still standing back there, that’s scary.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry what do you think?
Attorney Altman stated, you certainly can, you can amend the motion.
Jerry Thompson stated, I think we should, I think we should have a limited time to gaze in the maze. Put a time set on it and we move on.
Charlie Mellon stated, new evidence.
President Stimmel asked, what about it Charlie?
Charlie Mellon stated, it has to be new evidence…
President Stimmel stated, right.
Charlie Mellon stated, not anything that’s been said at the last…
President Stimmel stated, we’re meaning the same thing, yes.
Charlie Mellon stated, 2 meetings, repeating, no repeating.
Attorney Altman stated, amend the motion.
President Stimmel stated, amend the motion.
Gerald Cartmell asked, so I amend, are you amending your motion, what’s going on?
Jerry Thompson stated, I’ll have you so confused. Um, I’m in favor of time constraint but yet I can’t put my thumb on how much time we want to allow.
Attorney Altman stated, okay I would suggest you give them 15 minutes and that’s it, each side.
Jerry Thompson asked, each side 15 minutes and…
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, it would be up to the chairman actually, he ran the meeting.
Attorney Altman stated, if you ponder you squander.
Jerry Thompson stated, I can go with that, I lean in the back of my mind a half hour, hour total. The board discussion cut it of and we’re ready to go.
Dave Scott stated, I’d like to know what kind of questions there going to ask that hasn’t been covered 10 times already.
Gerald Cartmell stated, can’t be too many, I wouldn’t know what it would be.
Jerry Thompson asked, is an hour to much?
Dave Scott stated, I think anything’s too much we’ve been listening to testimony for 2 meetings now.
Jerry Thompson stated, we have.
Dave Scott stated, we’re hearing this stuff over and over again the same repetition.
Jerry Thompson asked, do you want to vote tonight?
Dave Scott stated, there’s a motion I want to vote now but you guys…
Attorney Altman stated, you’ve go a motion on the floor.
Dave Scott stated, there’s a motion on the floor.
President Stimmel stated, okay, Jerry, that wasn’t, you’ll have to repeat it for me because I didn’t understand the motion then.
Jerry Thompson stated, I move we meet on the 8th, is that right?
President Stimmel stated, right.
Jerry Thompson stated, at 7:30 basically an hour for the public for more discussion or input we cut it off, we vote.
Charlie Mellon stated, second.
President Stimmel asked, all in favor?
Board members stated, aye.
President Stimmel stated, okay motion carried.
Attorney Altman asked, everybody understand that?
President Stimmel asked, any other comments?
Attorney Altman stated, we’ll vote on this the 8th, we have a half hour on the opponents and a half hour on the proponents to testify and then they will vote. Do we have any question with that or problems with that. All right, very good. We’ll see you the 8th.
President Stimmel asked, any other questions, yes sir go right ahead?
Charlie Mellon stated, he’s got a question.
Dave Armbruster stated, Dave Armbruster, project manager for Synergy Management. Last month we were given questions, we’ve responded to the questions so I guess now my question is, is if we come back here on the 8th, is there more information that we need to provide or is everything in front of you?
President Stimmel stated, Dave, my opinion is, is that until we have an opportunity to look through this, we’re not, I, I, I hate to do that to you but I don’t know of any other way to do it.
Dave Armbruster stated, I’m fine. We were given 2 pages of question and then a 3rd page of questions, all the answers are in there, the topo maps, everything is there.
President Stimmel stated, and that’s great, had we had this a week ago and were able to digest it, formulate those questions tonight we would of done so, it might have expedited the process.
Dave Armbruster stated, I just want to make sure that you’ve got all the information.
President Stimmel stated, there maybe more and if there is we’ll try to communicate that to you quite frankly, very quickly.
Gerald Cartmell stated, I guess my only question is to you people, why didn’t you just, when you were, and maybe I’m all wrong about this but your coming in and spending this much money, why didn’t you just come in with all this information. More information than we ever wanted. I just don’t understand why we had to go through this long, long process. I mean have all this stuff for us. Surely, there’s somebody’s done this before.
Rob Bult stated, yes, I have personally permitted several quarries before. The information you were provided was the information, we had came in and asked and met with county officials and asked what information, each county’s different, what were the requirements. We did answer, you added more information to that and we answered, you know it keeps piling on this is as I stated in my opening statement, this is far more than you’ve ever done for any mining operation, I believe the last mining you approved was back in 99.
Gerald Cartmell stated, yes but this is not 99, this is now.
Rob Bult stated, I understand, I understand but if we would have had a list of your requirements in the beginning you would have had all of this. Half of the information in that packet was not raised by the BZA Board, it was raised by Mr. Bumbleburg.
President Stimmel stated, and Rob in defense okay, I guess I’m trying to defend the board but I mean you’ve got 5 lead people up here who don’t know a damn thing about mining, okay or about lime plants or about anything else and that’s one of the reason why this is taking, in my opinion is taking so long because I think everybody, there is a lot of people interested in it and had legitimate concerns because they don’t know either and I can sympathize with that and I’m sure you can too. It’s just unfortunate that it’s taking a little bit longer than we had hoped it would but I think in order to do the job we were asked to do I think this is what it takes and I and I, I think it’s, even though Joe may have brought those things to our attention, you know and I know Joe’s got his own fish to fry, okay and I understand that. He’s representing a client and that’s fine but I think he also has helped us, you know in a sense that try, you know to ask questions that we should of asked maybe in the first place and where we strike and balance or try to strike and balance is how far do we go before you feel like your being manipulated or directed by an attorney who’s opposed to it, okay versus what the real world is, you know what we could acknowledge and find out. That’s our property, Charlie you wanted to say something.
Charlie Mellon stated, we, we’ve had them a lot longer than this.
Several people are laughing.
Charlie Mellon stated, not to long ago out here at the station, trash station lasted about 5 years, I think.
President Stimmel stated, Charlie I’m going to put a time limit on it partner.
Charlie Mellon stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, you got about 5 seconds.
Charlie Mellon stated, there’s one in Benton County that lasted 6 sessions.
President Stimmel stated, times up, I’m sorry.
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s it.
President Stimmel stated, that’s all I wanted to say Rob and I’m just trying to explain to you and for the people here that are present, we’re working on it and it’s taking…
Rob Bult stated, yes I know you have an obligation to the community but you also live in the community…
President Stimmel stated, right.
Rob Bult stated, so you want all the questions answered and we feel, up until this point you know that we have adequately answered all the questions.
President Stimmel stated, and I agree, your making every effort and we’re going, I think we can take that into consideration, I think everybody does so…
Attorney Altman stated, I’ve got one thing as council for this board, I invite the indulgence and assistance of anybody that wishes to submit a written commitment and or findings of fact and conclusions of law for this matter and I would like that to be submitted within 5 days of today so that I can get a copy of that to the board, copy of both presuming they get one of each so I can get that to the board so they can look at that and have that in hand before the 8th, okay. Everybody understand?
President Stimmel asked, Joe you got another question?
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, I would only observe Mr. Chairman but that’s an interesting observation but if those findings of facts and conclusions are going to amount to a dime, somebody had to be able to read the transcript of what we’ve done not only at this meeting and the meeting before and I can see the minute I say that her brow furrows and we have put on her an immense tax…
Charlie Mellon stated, yes, to much.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, Mr. Altman I, I think you may be in 10 days, 5 days asking for something that is simply physically and practically and probably legally impossible.
Charlie Mellon stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Attorney Altman stated, then don’t do it.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, one more point Mr. Chairman.
President Stimmel stated, yes sir.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, I’ve taken this all evening long and I just want the record to reflect that I’m getting a little bit tired of Mr. Altman’s side bar comments and his questions to witnesses which take him out of the category of being your lawyer and put him into a category of being one of you members and he did that with 2 or 3 witnesses here tonight…
Charlie Mellon stated, yes he did.
Attorney Bumbleburg stated, and then he just zinged me again and I’m tired of it, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you sir. Yes sir.
John Castleberry stated, John Castleberry, I’m the Synergy Environmental Manager, um, as you ponder the mine reclamation plan you might consider that these plans have been written for the other quarries in the area after they’ve been developed and after the, there joining the association, those plans should be available for you to look at in comparison with what we are proposing per parity, I think you’ll find that the association will help us develop a very good plan as soon as the site has been selected the final drilling has been completed so we’ll really know how were going to go into this quarry and it’s design. A lime quarry is different than an aggregate quarry in that we may not take all the rock. We’re looking for the high grade, we’re looking for the highest purity. We may see irregularities in our design, it may not be a square shape at the end of the day like the Vulcan quarry across the road will be when it’s filled with water. Secondly, um, every day that there’s a delay, our competition is getting a jump on us in another state and we would really like to build this plant in the State of Indiana to support Indiana economy and supply the Indiana steel industry but it’s going off shore and you can help us by expediting this procedure to get us on tract and then there will be adequate time in the future to address the environmental issues of archeology, hydrology, wet lands, um the whole myriad of permitting issues that the public will have an opportunity to review and comment in the permit process. But we need to get to get going because the trains leaving the station over in Illinois.
President Stimmel stated, yes, thank you Mr. Castleberry.
****
Jerry Thompson made motion to adjourn.
Dave Scott seconded the motion.
The meeting adjourned.
Respectfully submitted,
David Scott, Secretary
Diann Weaver, Director
White County Area Plan Commission
Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________
“I AFFIRM, UNDER THE PENALTIES FOR PERJURY, THAT I HAVE TAKEN REASONABLE CARE TO REDACT EACH SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER IN THIS DOCUMENT, UNLESS REQUIRED BY LAW.”
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