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The White County Board of Zoning Appeals met on Thursday, November 20, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. in the Commissioners’ Meeting Room, Second Floor, County Building, Monticello, Indiana.
Members attending were: Charles Mellon, Jerry Thompson and David Stimmel. Also attending were Attorney Jerry Altman and Director Diann Weaver.
Visitors attending were: Linda Adams, Jeff Pearson, Paul Wise, Rose Wise, Randall Crawford, Mary S. Lutschwager, Dave Brownage, Mike Ezra, Douglas Bonin, Steve Parrish, Janice L. Herman, Steve Meyer, Jan Conwell, John Rodney, Roger L. Wilson Sr. ?, Carroll Robertson, Rick Robertson, Linda Diggs, John Hanik, Rosemary Denier, Peggy Hanik, Geraldean McDonnell, John Powers, Helen Powers, Ben Robinson, AJ ?, M. Kallay, Mark Rojkowski.
The meeting was called to order by President David Stimmel and roll call was taken. Jerry Thompson made a motion to dispense with reading and approve the minutes of the, September 25, 2008 meeting. Motion was seconded by and carried unanimously. Attorney Altman swore in all Board members and audience members.
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#2738 W. Dean & Marcia Cook; The property is located on 1.164 acres, on Part NE NE 22-27-03, located East of State Road 39 on C.R. 175 North before C.R. 725 East. Tabled from September 18, 2008.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 54’ front setback variance to build a new pole building.
Tabled
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#2759 Mark K. Werline; The property is located on 1.10 acres at W/S W SW 22-25-4, located south of Brookston at 10839 State Road 43. Tabled from September 25, 2008.
Violation: He has put a shed on the property without meeting setbacks and without a permit.
Request: They are requesting a 100’ front setback variance to place a temporary shed on the property.
Removed
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#2772 Bruce E. & Mary S. Luetschwager; The property is located on Lots 18, 19, & 20 in Elmer Girtz Camp, located Northeast of Lowes Bridge at 4671 E. Elmer Girtz Drive. Tabled from October 16, 2008.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 7 ½’ front setback variance to build a new home.
President Stimmel asked, is there anyone here who wants to speak for this variance? Yes ma’am?
Mary Luetschwager stated, hello, I’ve got pictures of the proposed house.
President Stimmel asked, would you speak into the microphone and give your name.
Mary Luetschwager stated, okay, my name is Mary S. Luetschwager and I have pictures of the proposed house we wanted to put in and some other pictures I wanted to show you guys.
President Stimmel stated, okay, if you submit them to the Board ma’am we do have to keep them, okay they do become part of the evidence, all right.
Mary Luetschwager stated, okay, all right.
President Stimmel stated, thank you.
Mary Luetschwager stated, okay this is the house we want to put up. I didn’t know I was going to be first. Anybody else want one?
President Stimmel stated, sure thank you.
Attorney Altman stated, need one for the record.
President Stimmel stated, there you go.
Attorney Altman stated, we’re marking this exhibit uh, I guess 1 of today’s hearing.
Mary Luetschwager stated, now these are loose pictures if you guys wanted to stamp those…
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Mary Luetschwager stated, you’ll have to pass those around. I only have one copy. Okay, this is something I’ll try to show you, this is a picture of what used to be there and we had to tear the place down because it was a wooden foundation built into the side of the hill and it was rotted when we bought it even though we had it inspected, they didn’t catch it so we lost a lot of money from that. This is what we’ve did to the front of the property all ready. If you’ve been out there you’ve seen that, there’s a seawall and a retaining wall started, haven’t finished it yet. And this is kind of what it looks like, this is our view to the east, and right here is 13’ back that would be where the porch front would sit with the variance and that would be about where the house would sit, okay. Without the variance we’d be back into that dirt hill, a lot further back. It’s kind of hard to see like that. I can give you these after, with the variance this is for the back of the house a stair line would sit. And that’s right on the edge of the existing driveway. This is where our problem is, there’s another picture, same thing. Without it, it would look kind of like this sitting on the driveway, we would probably have to cut down a tree, maybe 3. We would have to rebuild the driveway and move it. It would block our existing entry into and out of that one door of the garage. That’s kind of a straight in angle. Okay let’s see where am I.
President Stimmel asked, ma’am are these all the pictures that you handed to us?
Mary Luetschwager stated, I’m at, no I’ll give these to you.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Mary Luetschwager when I’m done. And again that’s the angle that would be into the garage and I’ve got one small picture there that would show that if you backed out of the garage you probably run into the corner of the house unless you backed straight out and this is one more picture and we’ve already spent a fortune there and we’re not rich. And we would have to move the driveway, the garage would be sitting at a very bad angle and it’s just a nightmare, that whole place is nothing but a nightmare with some variance we could make it work.
Jerry Thompson asked, are, we need to keep these don’t we?
Attorney Altman stated, yes.
Mary Luetschwager stated, you can keep them, I can make new copies.
Jerry Thompson asked, you need to see these again Charlie? I don’t.
Charlie Mellon stated, yea.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
Mary Luetschwager stated, and that’s why I was going to say the view to the east of the house is not a good view and we wouldn’t be blocking her view. The view to the west, the lake is on an angle which is another problem with the needing the variance and uh, we cut down that one bad tree on the corner and smooth that off and put that new wall in and put new rip rap in that corner and we’re really trying hard to make it a nice looking place, I mean it’s not, we don’t want it to be just slopped together and without the variance it’s going to be very, very difficult to make it work. At least even 2/3 of the variance would help, anything at all would help. And as you can see the picture of the house I gave you uh, the plan we purchased it has post 5’ out and that’s all porch and overhang and posts on the lower level and the house itself would sit back 5’ which would be about 2 1/2’ in to except for the overhang and the posts.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Is that all you have ma’am?
Mary Luetschwager stated, I think so.
President Stimmel stated, okay, thank you very much.
Mary Luetschwager asked, I can sit down?
President Stimmel stated, yea you can, you sure can, unless there’s questions from the Board and we’ll, we’ll let you know.
Mary Luetschwager stated, okay.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson asked, Diann do we have any correspondence with the neighbors, the neighborhood or anything?
Director Weaver stated, no, not that I recall, no.
Jerry Thompson asked, and everybody was notified? Okay, I don’t have anything else then.
President Stimmel asked, is there anybody in the audience that wants to speak for or against the variance? Okay, Charlie do you have anything?
Charlie Mellon stated, no, I was out there, I know they got it all cleared off and ready to do something a month ago, it looks pretty good to me.
President Stimmel asked, are you guys ready to vote?
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, let’s vote.
Attorney Altman asked, are there any other photographs down there that are exhibits on your table Jerry or Charlie?
Jerry Thompson stated, just basically that, the proposed.
Attorney Altman stated, okay I got that, I have that.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
Attorney Altman stated, okay, uh, for the record just noting that we received an another small photo and I marked it exhibit 6 of today also then marked a group unit of exhibits and photos that she testified from, I tried to keep them in the same order as she testified, there are 9 photos that are large photos and there exhibits 9 & 10 for the record.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned L-1, Lake District
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114. Applicants lot has trouble caused by the terrace and trees, therefore needs a variance.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 7 ½’ front setback variance to build a new home on Lots Numbered Eighteen (18), Nineteen (19), and Twenty (20) in Elmer Girtz’s Camp in Liberty Township, White County, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: Property is located Northeast of Lowes Bridge at 4671 E. Elmer Girtz Drive.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Altman stated, we have the results of the balloting on petition #2772, we had 3 votes cast, 3 votes vote to grant the variance. You need to get a building permit before you proceed ma’am.
Mary Luetschwager stated, I’m sorry I’m hard of hearing.
Attorney Altman stated, I’m sorry the vote was 3 in favor, 0 against, the variance is granted. You need to get a building permit before you proceed.
Mary Luetschwager asked, okay do I do that here at the courthouse.
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#2779 N. J. Properties II, LLC; The property is located on proposed Lot 2 in Jordan Subdivision, located in the City of Monticello at 821 N. First Street.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 156’ lot width variance.
Tabled
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#2780 Douglas & Lisa L. Bonin; The property is located Out SW Frax 34-27-3 on .60 of an acre, located in the City of Monticello off of East Ohio Street at 511 Tyler Lane.
Violation: They built an unroofed deck on the detached garage that was not meeting the setbacks without a permit.
Request: They are requesting a 2’ side setback variance to remodel and add an unroofed deck to an existing detached garage and a 30’ front setback variance to add a roofed deck to the house.
President Stimmel asked, and you are sir?
Douglas Bonin stated, Douglas Bonin, gook evening.
President Stimmel stated, thanks Mr. Bonin. Uh, is there anything you want to add to what I’ve read?
Douglas Bonin stated, it is true that we built a deck without a permit however it was an innocent mistake, we were not aware, we had a remodel permit but we did not realize we needed a deck as well so we’re guilty. The other variance and request for the unroofed deck is, we took off an existing deck and we’re only duplicating the size of that deck that we took off. That would be on the main, main building.
President Stimmel asked, on the main house?
Douglas Bonin stated, um hum.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Have we had any fan mail on this one Diann, any correspondence?
Director Weaver stated, no we haven’t but I do want to clarify that on the survey that you have the deck that is going to go on the house is not shown on that survey and we did request that but we did not get a revised survey.
President Stimmel asked, Mr. Bonin can you show us where that deck is on the house? Because I don’t have it on mine either and it might expedite kind of for the Board if you can show us.
Jerry Thompson asked, we are dealing with the request first?
President Stimmel stated, right.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, the violation after…
Jerry Thompson stated, all right.
Douglas Bonin stated, that’s where the old deck was.
Jerry Thompson stated, all right.
Douglas Bonin stated, and that’s where the new deck would be.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay you’re going over the top, more or less.
Douglas Bonin stated, um hum.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
Charlie Mellon stated, you have that going haven’t you?
Douglas Bonin stated, yes sir.
Charlie Mellon stated, okay I was out there and seen you done a lot of work.
Douglas Bonin stated, a lot of block work huh.
Jerry Thompson asked, same, pretty much same dimensions?
Douglas Bonin stated, uh huh. We’re going to do it the same dimensions.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay, okay. Can I see that Charlie?
Charlie Mellon stated, yea.
President Stimmel asked, have you got it here? Where’s it at on the house?
Jerry Thompson stated, there’s the old one right there.
President Stimmel stated, okay, that’s something I don’t…
Jerry Thompson stated, basically the same footprint as the old deck is what I think he’s saying.
President Stimmel stated, okay and that’s towards the lake, all right, okay. Here you go Jerry, thank you.
Jerry Thompson stated, thank you.
President Stimmel asked, is there anybody in the audience who wants for or against the variance? Okay. Anything else you want to add Diann?
Director Weaver stated, not at this point no.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Charlie?
Charlie Mellon stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, no, ready to vote.
President Stimmel asked, ready to vote?
Jerry Thompson stated, yea.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Attorney Altman stated, so you’re just replacing the deck with the house that’s shown on survey of James Milligan dated October 23, 2008.
Douglas Bonin stated, right we’re going to roof it, it’ll be a covered deck.
Director Weaver stated, plus they’re doing the garage.
Attorney Altman stated, plus they’re doing the garage.
Director Weaver stated, the deck on the garage and remodel the garage.
Douglas Bonin stated, we like to think we’re improving the neighborhood.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114. The new improvements will be substantially where the old were.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 2’ side setback variance to remodel and add an unroofed deck to an existing detached garage and a 30’ front setback variance to add a roofed deck to the house on A tract of land out of Section 34, Township 27 North, Range 3 West in Union Township, White County, Indiana and described more fully as follows: Beginning at a point which is 1256 feet East and North 40 degrees and 30 minutes East 619 feet and South 87 degrees East 155.6 feet from the Southwest corner of the above said Section 34 and running thence North 4 degrees East 21.2 feet; thence North 75 degrees 30 minutes West and 10.0 feet; thence North 4 degrees East 146.4 feet; thence South 84 degrees 26 minutes East 94.9 feet; thence South 46 degrees 26 minutes East 119.6 feet; thence South 18 degrees 21 minutes West along the Northern Indiana Power Company line 90.65 feet; thence North 87 degrees West 154 feet to the point of beginning, containing .60 of an acre, more or less.
The following described tract of land being a part of the above described tract of land is subject to an easement for a road right-of-way; beginning at a point which is the Northwest corner of the above described tract of land and running thence South 84 degrees 26 minutes East 9.9 feet; thence South 4 degrees West 148 feet; thence North 75 degrees 30 Minutes West 10.1 feet; thence North 4 degrees East 146.4 feet to the place of beginning.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: Property is located in the City of Monticello off of East Ohio Street at 511 Tyler Lane.
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Altman stated, announcing the results on petition #2780, and again 3 votes cast, 3 votes vote that the variance is hereby granted. You need to get a building permit before you proceed.
Douglas Bonin stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, okay. What’s the Board’s pleasure on the violation.
Jerry Thompson stated, I’ve got a few questions. Who built, who built this deck?
Douglas Bonin stated, uh, we did.
Jerry Thompson asked, you did personally or you hired someone?
Douglas Bonin stated, no we did it personally.
Jerry Thompson stated, you did. Okay and I see you’re from Westville?
Douglas Bonin stated, um hum.
Jerry Thompson asked, have you, you own a home there obviously?
Douglas Bonin stated, yes sir.
Jerry Thompson asked, you’ve done home projects?
Douglas Bonin stated, yes sir.
Jerry Thompson asked, do they require permits where you reside in your county?
Douglas Bonin stated, they do, they do.
Jerry Thompson asked, didn’t think that White County required…
Douglas Bonin stated, we typically do new construction though and when we go in and get a permit there’s not a distinction, if we have a deck on that house that we have to buy a separate deck permit or anything like that and we’re kind of in that mode, it was an innocent mistake.
Jerry Thompson stated, I understand that and I’m not trying to be mean but yet this is the hard part, the violation and how to treat it. I want to make sure I understood who did what and when.
Douglas Bonin stated, it’s Christmas time.
Charlie Mellon stated, how long has that deck been on, built, how long has the deck been on your house down here?
Douglas Bonin asked, the one on the garage?
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
Douglas Bonin stated, um, just a couple of days after we got the permit to remodel.
Charlie Mellon stated, oh here recently then.
Jerry Thompson stated, so it’s not 6 months old.
Douglas Bonin stated, no, no.
President Stimmel stated, Diann you had something.
Director Weaver stated, yea, first I want to ask, did I understand your wife that you are contractors in Westville?
Douglas Bonin stated, yes.
Director Weaver stated, okay. And also I want the Board to realize that they started remodel on the garage without a permit as well and the Building Inspector stopped the work.
President Stimmel stated, okay. What’s your pleasure?
Charlie Mellon stated, well it seems like we have more trouble with the contractors then we do with individual people and I just thought by asking that question, I thought if he had it on there for 10 or 15 years that some of that just come into effect in 202 or 203 along there but I guess that’s not the case.
President Stimmel stated, um hum. Do you have a number in mind Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, no not yet but Diann the way it stands now our fine could be $500.
President Stimmel stated, it could be more than that.
Director Weaver stated, um hum.
Jerry Thompson asked, and, and per day, correct?
Director Weaver stated, yes.
Attorney Altman stated, up to $300 per day, yes.
Charlie Mellon asked, how much per day?
Attorney Altman stated, $300 per day, as little as I think 10 and as much as, and each day is an offence, that really hasn’t changed Charlie.
Charlie Mellon stated, okay.
Attorney Altman stated, I’m not saying you go either way, I’m just saying that is the parameters you’re allowed.
Jerry Thompson stated, so basically this is about, really in reality this is about a month old.
Douglas Bonin stated, yes, um hum.
Jerry Thompson stated, this project, the violation…
Douglas Bonin stated, the violation yea.
Jerry Thompson asked, violation we’re speaking about, correct, does that sound about right with everybody?
Director Weaver stated, the deck yes.
Jerry Thompson asked, well being we’re short handed tonight what’s Mr. President think? And then I’ll tell you what I think.
President Stimmel stated, okay, I think the number ought to be somewhere north of $300, my opinion because I believe that there was, understood that it’s innocent but it also you know the gentlemen with that kind of experience I would think would know better.
Jerry Thompson stated, the worse case would be 500 plus uh, another 900, couldn’t it? 30 days at 3, no how about 9,000.
Director Weaver stated, yea.
President Stimmel stated, yea, it could be, that would be worse case.
Jerry Thompson stated, so if we really want to be rotten we could say 9500 tonight.
President Stimmel stated, that’s right.
Attorney Altman stated, I wouldn’t say rotten you just impose a meaningful…
Jerry Thompson stated, I can go along with 300, I think that’s a pretty light slap on the hands but I…
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, I don’t enjoy fining period so but yet it’s our job.
President Stimmel stated, yep, Charlie?
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s fine with me.
President Stimmel stated, okay I need to hear a motion in that regard then.
Jerry Thompson stated, I move we fine the Bonin’s $300 for their violation on their unroofed deck.
Charlie Mellon stated, I’ll second.
President Stimmel stated, all in favor say aye.
Board Members stated, aye.
President Stimmel stated, fines $300. Take that to Area Plan?
Director Weaver stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, as soon as you can and you need to get a building permit cause you got your variance.
Douglas Bonin asked, how soon can we do that, as soon as tomorrow?
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
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#2783 Donald J. Jr. & Jennifer W. Herdrich; The property is located on Tract 1,2,3,4, Out N Frax SW 27-27-3, located East of Monticello off of State Road 39 at 6101 E. Woodhaven Court.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 23’ north side setback variance to bring the existing house into compliance so it can be remodeled and added on to.
President Stimmel asked, and you are sir?
Eric Stevenson stated, Eric Stevenson.
President Stimmel asked, Eric didn’t I see something about…
Attorney Altman stated, you have a letter in here…
President Stimmel asked, I think we’ve got a letter in here don’t we?
Attorney Altman stated, authorizing Mr. Stevenson.
Eric Stevenson stated, yea, you should have.
Attorney Altman stated, to…
Jerry Thompson stated, we know you but just for all intensive purposes.
President Stimmel stated, right, okay. Any fan mail on this one Diann?
Director Weaver stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, anything you want to add Eric?
Eric Stevenson stated, um, nothing other than he just wants to remodel and add on a little bit and we’re adding on opposite side of where the setback problem is.
President Stimmel stated, and the setback is on the north side, do I understand.
Eric Stevenson stated, yes we’re adding on the south side.
President Stimmel stated, and that’s just to bring, actually that’s just to bring it into compliance.
Eric Stevenson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, that’s really the only thing…
Eric Stevenson stated, right.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Director Weaver stated, and they have to do this because they’re improving the home more than 50% of the value.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right, that makes sense then. Anybody in the audience who wants to speak for or against the variance? Yes sir.
Dave Bramlage stated, my name is Dave Bramlage, I’m the neighbor just on the south side.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Dave Bramlage stated, and I have absolutely no problem with this, the house needs to be remodeled and I look forward to having a good neighbor next to us.
President Stimmel stated, very good, thank you Mr. Bramlage.
Jerry Thompson stated, thank you.
President Stimmel asked, Board?
Charlie Mellon asked, that’s down the hill Eric?
Eric Stevenson stated, yea.
Charlie Mellon stated, know I was out there and I was afraid to go down the hill after I saw that no trespassing sign.
Eric Stevenson stated, oh.
President Stimmel asked, ready to vote Charlie.
Charlie Mellon stated, I thought they might lock me up before I got out of there.
President Stimmel asked, ready to vote?
Board Members stated, yea, let’s vote.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver asked, you brought your sign back right Eric?
Eric Stevenson stated, yep.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned A-1, Agricultural.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114. The variance is for the existing home.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 23’ north side setback variance to bring the existing house into compliance so it can be remodeled and added on to on TRACT I:
Beginning at a point on the East band of the Tippecanoe River which is 360 feet South of the North Line of the North Half of the Southwest Quarter of Section 27, Township 27 North, Range 3 West and running thence East 300 feet; thence South 40 feet; thence West 300 feet; thence North 40 feet; to the point of beginning.
TRACT II:
Beginning at a point on the East band of the Tippecanoe River which is 400 feet South of the North line of the North Half of the Southwest Quarter of Section 27, Township 27 North, Range 3 West and running thence East 300 feet; thence South 50 feet; thence West 300 feet; thence North 50 feet to the point of beginning.
TRACT III:
Beginning at a point on the East bank of the Tippecanoe River which is 450 feet South of the North line of the North Half of the Southwest Quarter of Section 27, Township 27 North, Range 3 West and running thence East 300 feet; thence South 50 feet; thence West 300 feet; thence North 50 feet to the point of beginning.
TRACT IV:
Beginning at a point on the East bank of the Tippecanoe River which is 360 feet South of the North line of the North Half of the Southwest Quarter of Section 27, Township 27 North, Range 3 West and running thence East 300 feet to the point of beginning; thence East 100 feet; thence South 140 feet; thence West 100 feet; thence North 140 feet to the point of beginning.
Being located in the North Fractional Part of the Southwest Quarter of Section 27, Township 27 North, Range 3 West in Union Township, White County, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: Property is located East of Monticello off of State Road 39 at 6101 E. Woodhaven Court.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Altman stated, announcing the results of the balloting on petition #2783, there are 3 votes cast, 3 votes vote the variance is hereby granted. They need to get a building permit before they proceed.
Eric Stevenson stated, thank you.
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#2784 Jeffery G. Pearson; The property is located on Lot 56 in Kemps Camp, located north of Monticello and west of Monon Road at 3705 E. Polk Loop.
Violation: None
Request: He is requesting a 22’ front (Kemp Dr.) setback variance and a 2’ front (Polk Loop) setback variance to build a new home.
President Stimmel asked, and you are sir?
Jeff Pearson stated, Jeff Pearson.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Jeff. Anything you want to add Jeff to what we’ve spoke?
Jeff Pearson stated, no that’s about it.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jeff Pearson stated, you know it’s just trying to put something nice there, we couldn’t a mobile home there so…
Jerry Thompson stated, it looks good.
Jeff Pearson stated, put a house.
President Stimmel stated, Jeff I was out there today too and I, there are, there’s 4 pieces of rebar and I’m assuming those are corners of the house.
Jeff Pearson stated, those are corners yea, yea.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jeff Pearson stated, actually there bolts.
President Stimmel asked, they’re what?
Jeff Pearson stated, bolts.
President Stimmel stated, bolts, are they, okay.
Jeff Pearson stated, yea, so.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Any mail on this one Diann?
Director Weaver stated, no.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Anybody in the audience want to speak for or against this? Yes sir?
Paul Wise stated, I wouldn’t miss this chance for the world.
President Stimmel stated, it sounds to me like a setup is what it sounds like.
Paul Wise stated, my name is Paul Wise I live right across the street from where Jeff’s going to build this house and I’m looking forward to him getting this unit in there, it’s going to better the neighborhood for sure, it’s, the whole neighborhoods been changing slowly over the years and it’s headed the right direction.
President Stimmel stated, great, thank you very much sir. Yes ma’am?
Marcy Calahan stated, my name is Marcy Calahan, I am going to be a neighbor of Jeff’s to the northeast of the property and I also am looking forward to the addition of the home.
President Stimmel stated, great, thanks very much for the input. Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, nothing.
President Stimmel asked, Charlie?
Charlie Mellon stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, ready to vote?
Jerry Thompson stated, yep.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned R-2, One and Two Family Residential.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114. Neighbors present and testified in favor of the variance.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 22’ front (Kemp Dr.) setback variance and a 2’ front (Polk Loop) setback variance to build a new home on Lot Numbered Fifty-six (56) in Kemps Camp Addition, Monon Township, White County, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: Property is located north of Monticello and west of Monon Road at 3705 E. Polk Loop.
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Altman stated, announcing the results on petition #2784, we again have 3 votes cast and have 3 votes voting that the variance is hereby granted. You need to get a building permit before you proceed sir.
****
#2785 Randall F. & Marilyn A. Crawford – Owner and Mike Ezra – Applicant; The property is located on Lot 5 in Crawford Corners Subdivision, located west of Buffalo on the south side of State Road 16 between Kiger Drive and West Shafer Drive.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 40’ front setback variance and a 2’ rear setback variance to build self storage units.
President Stimmel stated, gentlemen.
Mike Ezra stated, I’m Mike Ezra.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Randall Crawford stated, I’m Randall Crawford.
Mike Ezra stated, I’m the one wanting to build the building but he still owns the property because if it don’t work I don’t want the property.
President Stimmel stated, all right. Anything you want to add Mike or…
Mike Ezra started, I’ve got, incase you guys don’t have an idea how, well I guess you do have some paperwork on it but that’s basically how it’s going to layout.
Attorney Altman asked, is that the survey of Mr. Milligan’s.
Mike Ezra stated, yes.
Attorney Altman stated, okay, very good. We have a copy of that in the record.
Jerry Thompson stated, well that’s basically a floor plan there, I’d call it Jerry you better look at it real quick.
Attorney Altman stated, okay maybe that isn’t exact.
Jerry Thompson stated, well it’s real similar.
Mike Ezra stated, well it’s basically the same thing.
Jerry Thompson stated, it’s showing how many compartments, I don’t know how else to call it.
Randall Crawford asked, do you need this thing of the lot?
President Stimmel stated, no I have that.
Jerry Thompson stated, no you better hang on to that.
Attorney Altman stated, I’m going to mark that exhibit 1 and I think it does show essentially the proposed self storage buildings and it shows the kinds of storage areas are there.
President Stimmel stated, Mike I got one question just looking at this print that you just gave me, it’s…
Mike Ezra stated, it’s, that print is not proportionate just to give you an idea, the one he did is proportionate.
President Stimmel stated, but it’s, but it’s giving me dimensions and it says 70’ on this one end.
Mike Ezra stated, yea, like I said it’s, this is the dimensions.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right.
Mike Ezra stated, that’s nothing but just showing the spaces of the actual building.
President Stimmel stated, okay so I need further dimensions.
Mike Ezra stated, ignore dimensions, yes.
President Stimmel stated, all right, all right.
Mike Ezra stated, the only, I guess the only comment I have is that we, you know we have looked at the option of coming up the, what’s the name of that street, Kiger Drive.
President Stimmel stated, um hum.
Mike Ezra stated, for visibility and stuff and it should have no, no uh, repercussions from blocking vision or anything from the highway or anything by putting it out there. There’s a null there and stuff and it’s also if you go out far enough you know from setting it out you can’t, it’s not a blockage problem.
President Stimmel stated, okay, but your entrance is going to be off of 16.
Mike Ezra stated, yes.
Director Weaver asked, Mr. Ezra you still haven’t addressed your drainage yet, correct?
Mike Ezra asked, do what?
Director Weaver asked, your drainage, you still have that to take care of?
Mike Ezra stated, yea I still got to do that yet, yea.
Director Weaver stated, so there maybe, he may have to size down somehow.
Mike Ezra stated, yes.
Director Weaver stated, because of drainage whatever the Drainage Board reflects.
Mike Ezra stated, we may have to have some variations to as far as shrinking the building down to put a retention pond in the back, he suggested. We don’t know that for sure until we get further along but I guess I got to do one step at a time.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, um, of course it’s really not our concern but just a question. The entry point off the highway, does that have to be approved by the state?
Director Weaver stated, I believe so, yes.
Mike Ezra stated, um hum.
Jerry Thompson asked, so this is after, he needs to do that after we address this or?
Director Weaver stated, well you have not done that?
Mike Ezra stated, no.
Director Weaver stated, okay.
Charlie Mellon stated, there’s usually a fee to that too Mike. Did you know that?
Mike Ezra stated, well there’s also, there’s another entrance there in the center that if we have to work something out why you know we’ll work something out to go a different direction.
Jerry Thompson stated, no I don’t have any other questions then that I’m just a little bit concerned about the rough drawing there on the entrance.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Director Weaver stated, you might notice on this drawing too that he shows the grass area and the reason he’s done that is because I’ve requested him to show that because the commercial project is now required to have landscaping.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, um hum.
Charlie Mellon asked, in the back of the building a retention pond will that take all the area up back to back into your property?
Mike Ezra stated, no, no.
Charlie Mellon stated, no I didn’t think so.
Mike Ezra stated, this is just one lot on…
Charlie Mellon stated, there’s still room back there.
Mike Ezra stated, oh yes.
Charlie Mellon stated, oh okay.
Mike Ezra stated, and at this point in time I don’t plan on building 3 buildings, there may never be 3 buildings but I don’t want to go through this 3 times.
Charlie Mellon stated, yea.
Mike Ezra stated, I’m just planning on right now 1 building.
President Stimmel stated, oh you are.
Mike Ezra stated, yea.
President Stimmel stated, so your intention right now is to build one building.
Mike Ezra stated, just one building but I don’t want to have to go through it 3 times so.
Charlie Mellon stated, yea.
President Stimmel asked, have we any mail on this Diann?
Director Weaver stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, is there anybody in the audience who wants to speak for or against this variance? Okay. So if there’s, in a commercial structure like this Diann, then there not requesting any variances from those requirements that the grass satisfies that, is that what your saying?
Director Weaver stated, well he is planning on putting shrubs in too.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Mike Ezra stated, whatever it requires.
Director Weaver stated, we have, yea we haven’t looked at it in detail, I just wanted him to give you an idea that he going to put landscaping…
Jerry Thompson stated, it’s designated on the drawing there.
President Stimmel stated, right, right. Okay. If you had to sit it back 80’ Mike how many units would it cost you, I mean would it?
Mike Ezra stated, well basically the way I’ve got it figured is if I can’t, if I can’t make it work out that way I’ll probably have to move the facility to a different location because by the time I buy the lot, if I have to sit it back that much I’m given 1/3 of that property back away.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Randall Crawford stated, and when I originally drew this up the original plot that was approved and everything was set up for 50’ setback and now they’re saying 80 you know but this is back in 92 or 3 on the plot there.
Charlie Mellon stated, 3.
President Stimmel asked, is there no setback from the road that runs north and south Diann?
Director Weaver stated, he’s not next to that road.
Charlie Mellon stated, no he’s not on that road.
President Stimmel stated, oh he’s not next to…
Director Weaver stated there’s a lot in between his and that road.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Randall Crawford stated, yea, that’s like the middle lot.
Mike Ezra stated, and then also the highway has got like a 20’ distance between it.
President Stimmel stated, and the pavement?
Mike Ezra stated, up from the pavement back with 20’ there.
Randall Crawford stated, like where the property line starts, yea.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right.
Charlie Mellon stated, got actually 60.
Mike Ezra stated, right.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Any other questions from the Board?
Charlie Mellon stated, no.
Dave Scott stated, no.
President Stimmel asked, ready to vote?
Board Members stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is currently zoned B-2, General Business.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114. The applicant must get Drainage Board approval.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 40’ front setback variance and a 2’ rear setback variance to build self storage units on Lot Five (5) in Crawford Corners Subdivision, Liberty Township, White County, Indiana.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: Property is located located west of Buffalo on the south side of State Road 16 between Kiger Drive and West Shafer Drive.
7. That the variance herein authorized and granted is not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make typical or recurrent the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said condition or situation of the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variance is based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variance under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Altman stated, announcing the results of the balloting on petition #2785, we have 3 votes cast again, 3 votes vote the variance is hereby granted. You need to get a building permit before you proceed and you also need to take care of the drainage.
Mike Ezra stated, right, yea.
President Stimmel stated, all right, thank guys.
****
#2786 Forest Richard II & Carroll B. Robertson Revocable Trust; The property is located on .436 of an acre, Part NW NE 4-26-3, located in the City of Monticello at 801 S. Main Street.
Violation: None
Request: They are requesting a 2 space parking variance, a 7’ south side setback variance and a 6’ rear setback variance for the parking areas that will be encroaching on the abandoned railroad. Also, a 4’ south side setback variance to allow the driveway to be closer than 25’ to the residential zoning to the south. And a .1’ south side setback variance to allow them to add on to the existing dentist office and to put a residence in the upstairs of the building.
President Stimmel asked, and you are sir?
Rick Robertson stated, my name is Rick Robertson.
President Stimmel asked, Rick can you, do you want to add anything to what I’ve explained?
Rick Robertson stated, uh, you’ve said a lot right there, um…
President Stimmel stated, it’s a long one.
Rick Robertson stated, I am going to let my office manager speak a little bit. She’s my wife Carol and she’s been working behind the scenes on this project for quite a while so she’s got a few things to say to the Board and I really appreciate your consideration on these matters tonight, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you very much.
Carol Robertson stated, such a nice introduction isn’t it.
President Stimmel stated, very nice.
Carol Robertson stated, okay I basically have one thing for each of you and…
Jerry Thompson stated, yea we have this.
President Stimmel stated, thank you ma’am.
Carol Robertson stated, thank you and I might have a copy of a um, also a letter, a note from our neighbor to the south I will be bringing up.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Carol Robertson stated, not much I agree but it’s got a signature on it and then I have a drainage plan um, survey here that I’m going to be referring to. Before I begin I’d just like to say that Rick has been a dentist for 30 years, with the 798 square foot building um, and we really love South Main Street and would love to be able to stay there. We have come before you tonight to ask for 4 ordinances, work with an architect on the building and surveyor working on a drainage plan began in January. After paying a total of $17,000 to these 2 men to draw up plans in accordance with the ordinances we feel the rules were changed at the end of the game making it nearly impossible for us to adhere to the new rules with the work previously done and paid for. We’re literally between a rock and a hard place. So what I’m saying there is the ordinances changed right before I walked in with a full set of plans under my arm.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Carol Robertson stated, to improve our lot we lost the grandfathered parking within the highway right-of-way thus forcing us to move our parking. Under the old set of ordinances we were required to have 2 for the residence and 6 for the doctor’s office totaling 8. We felt that we should probably have 3 more and decided to put the employee parking in the back. The new ordinances require us and you do have a copy of that survey, right?
President Stimmel stated, um hum.
Carol Robertson stated, okay. Um, the new ordinances require us to have 1 space per employee totaling 3 and 8 per doctor and 2 for the residence for a grand total of 13. New setback requirements cause us to lose the 3 to the back putting us back to a total of 6 + 2 equals 8.
President Stimmel asked, excuse me Carol but you said to the back you mean to the west is that how I’m interpreting that?
Carol Robertson stated, to the um,…
President Stimmel asked, or to the north?
Carol Robertson stated, to the east.
President Stimmel stated, to the east, okay.
Carol Robertson stated, to the back of our property.
President Stimmel stated, okay, okay.
Carol Robertson stated, sorry.
President Stimmel stated, all right thank you.
Carol Robertson stated, we would still need to fit 5 more somewhere and according to um, the last let of ordinances and I didn’t get to pull it off and I’m assuming it’s very similar wording for the new ordinances, it says that this application for the variance must allege that by reason by of the exceptional narrowness, shallowness, or shape of the specific piece of property or by reason of exceptional topographical conditions or other extraordinary situation of the land where the building or the use of property immediately adjoining the property in question the literal enforcement of this ordinance would cause undue or unnecessary hardship and that’s where we are.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Carol Roberson stated, we just have got a really odd shaped piece of property. To improve our lot, okay sorry um, we have an odd shaped triangular lot and would like to make it into something special. We feel like it’s got great visibility, we love, love the exposure there on South Main. We would like to ask that we would be able to keep the ones to the south by allowing us to adhere to the old ordinance, thus asking for a variance there and be allowed to have 2 less spaces total. In other words we would like to leave the parking just as it is on your drawing. We have obtained written permission from the Brown’s to the south and that’s what I’ve all ready shown to you and just as a little side here, as Rick says not all doctors are created equal and by virtue of the nature of our style of dentistry we seldom have a parking lot with more then 6 cars so we felt like we were being generous in adding the 3 to the back plus Rick won’t be driving to the office with the with the space inside our garage. We also have another problem with the additional parking and that being the drainage plan which was just approved by the Drainage Board on Monday. I’m hoping that um, you can just look at this copy and you can have this one as an exhibit. But just in general I hope you’ll agree that it’s quite involved. Lot’s of work has gone into this. We actually had the City or the um, electrical engineer from Indianapolis that had to come up and work with our survey on this, Bob Gross um, so we paid for him too. So we’ve done a lot of work on this and I’m thankful to say it’s now been approved.
Charlie Mellon stated, we’ve got that. It’s just bigger than what we’ve got. It’s the same thing.
Carol Robertson stated, yea it’s the same it’s just that this has got all the places where we’re going to do the drainage, the different issues and…
Jerry Thompson stated, yea.
Attorney Altman stated, that’ll be fine, we put that into the record.
Carol Robertson stated okay great thank you. Um, I’m not sure that I can take going before the Drainage Board again asking for 2 more parking spaces worth of hard surface and I might point out I think that would be a true hardship for us. Without approval of this variance we will experience undue financial hardship in redesigning the office and drainage plan, possible nixing the project and it is our desire to improve our city and community by upgrading our building and parking lot and landscaping extensively. We have gotten a letter of approval from the neighbors most affected and I have approval by word of mouth of the neighbors across the street um, and the City Councilmen and Mayor unanimously put a stamp of approval on our plans and that’s what you should have a letter there and Eric Storm graciously came to support us and that’s all I have to say, we thank you so much for your consideration of our situation.
President Stimmel stated, all right. Any questions from the Board before she sits down?
Charlie Mellon stated, you got the answer what we was question at the last meeting, it was about the people on the south.
Carol Robertson stated, yes.
Charlie Mellon stated, that house on the drainage then, you got them okayed…
Carol Robertson, stated, that’s right, that’s, that’s…
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s the biggest that we was after.
Attorney Altman stated, yea I have here and let me read into she handed me and I marked it exhibit A, exhibit 1, I’m sorry. Ron and Tara Brown are ok with the Robertson’s drawing and plans with the property on South Main Street. It’s dated 11-20-08, signed by Tara R. Brown I believe and I must, I guess it’s Ron Brown.
Carol Robertson stated, right.
Attorney Altman stated, okay. So I think the answer to your question Charlie…
Charlie Mellon stated, yea.
Attorney Altman stated, they’re saying fine.
Charlie Mellon stated, you’re right.
Carol Robertson stated, Diann I’m assuming we didn’t get any negative feedback.
Director Weaver stated, no, I haven’t received anything, no.
Carol Robertson stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, before you sit down Mrs. Robertson one question I had is and I just this is just one of those things I guess but I wondered about the south side setback variance of .1’.
Carol Robertson stated, right.
President Stimmel stated, I mean an inch.
Carol Robertson stated, that’s how much we missed it by and Diann wasn’t going to add it on to the list.
President Stimmel asked, I mean was there any consideration given to just making the building an inch and a half smaller?
Carol Robertson stated, well it’s, it’s to be honest it’s a difference, we originally uh, over 2 years ago had a survey done by Jim Milligan and then we started into the drainage stuff which was, so the building was designed on Jim Milligan’s um, survey.
President Stimmel stated, um hum.
Carol Robertson stated, and then midstream here I think maybe in June or so we brought on Bob Gross, July, we brought on Bob Gross and he resurveyed it and I don’t know if the grass was falling differently or whatever but we were off on our drawings and didn’t realize until we put the newly designed building on his survey which is what you have in your hand because that’s what goes with all of the topological surveys that we had done and I mean he did numerous surveys so that’s how we’re .1’.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right.
Carol Robertson stated, so about an inch and a half off.
President Stimmel stated, I think with this Boards experience I think that if you had a 3rd surveyor do it you might end up the other side, quite frankly so.
Carol Robertson stated, well that’s what we’ve been told too, yea.
President Stimmel stated, I just was you know it just seemed like such a small amount.
Carol Robertson stated, well it is and I just didn’t want you all to say, look and then we have to apply for another variance because…
President Stimmel stated, sure, sure.
Carol Robertson stated, our hope is to start digging like tomorrow so we’re tight on timing there with the weather.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry, Charlie any answers for her questions?
Jerry Thompson stated, oh I’d rather wait until you open it up here maybe and then…
President Stimmel stated, all right. Any questions from the audience or anybody want to speak for or against the variance? Go ahead.
Eric Storm stated, good evening, Eric Storm, Monticello City Councilman district ?? just like to say you all ready have the letter from the Mayor, the City council is in full support of their project, I acknowledge it is a more unique environment down there and we are in favor of this and believe it will bring a better look to that end of town and neighbors are fine with it and the city’s compliant with it so.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Eric Storm stated, be happy for your appreciation to it.
President Stimmel stated, okay thanks for the input Eric.
Attorney Altman stated, Eric I have one question.
Eric Storm stated, yes sir.
Attorney Altman asked, uh, I noticed that their building and if you will on the survey and I’m sure you’re familiar with this…
Eric Storm stated, um hum.
Attorney Altman stated, uh, on part of an abandoned railroad there.
Eric Storm stated, yes sir.
Attorney Altman stated, and we show the I think it’s the center line and usually when something’s abandoned half of the property comes one and half of the property goes to the other adjoining neighbor on the other side. Looking at this it will appear that the city would be on the other side with your Tioga Road there.
Eric Storm stated, um hum.
Attorney Altman stated, and because they encroach past the centerline I wanted to ask and make sure that the city is in agreement that even though they may encroach slightly on that uh your half of this abandoned railroad and even though they’re going across to Tyler Road across that the City agrees with that and thinks that’s appropriate.
Eric Storm stated, uh yes sir, yea see they’ve all ready applied and I believe they’ve all ready received the permit for the exit way across the road way from the City and they also understand that it is an abandoned railroad property and you know there is a possibility that they could lose that back to the railroad or who ever but um, their aware of that and agree with any planning through that, that the City might future do as well. We’re in good cooperation, their words good with us so.
Attorney Altman stated, I appreciate that but I just wanted to make sure the City is in agreement with him doing that…
Eric Storm stated, yes, we’re…
Attorney Altman stated, what may in fact be your half of that property.
Eric Storm stated, yes sir, we’re, we’re fine with it entirely.
Attorney Altman stated, very good thank you, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Anyone else want to speak for or against the variance? Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, I have nothing.
President Stimmel asked, Charlie?
Charlie Mellon stated, nothing more.
President Stimmel asked, ready to vote?
Jerry Thompson stated, yep.
Attorney Altman stated, I did mark again for the record the exhibit 2 is a letter from the Mayor, Jason Thompson and he stated that the City’s voted unanimously in favor of this and uh, that they by ordinance allowed this and in favor and also we have an exhibit which is a rather large one but I’ll mark exhibit 3 which is a survey of RW Gross which shows the requirements and the special occasions from the Drainage Board on this request.
The Board finds the following:
1. That the property is properly zoned B-1, Retail Business.
2. That the lot was an existing lot of record at the time of enactment of the ordinance, as defined in Section 2.114. City approved the request and encroachment.
3. That the site plan survey provided shows the lot size, existing improvements and proposed improvements, see file for exhibit.
4. That no objectors were present at the meeting.
5. That proper notice was given by mail to adjoining property owners.
6. That the request is for a 2 space parking variance, a 7’ south side setback variance and a 6’ rear setback variance for the parking areas that will be encroaching on the abandoned railroad. Also, a 4’ south side setback variance to allow the driveway to be closer than 25’ to the residential zoning to the south. And a .1’ south side setback variance to allow them to add on to the existing dentist office and to put a residence in the upstairs of the building on That part of the Northwest Quarter of the Northeast Quarter of Section 4, Township 26 North, Range 3 West, 2nd Principal Meridian, Union Township, White County, Indiana described by:
Commencing at the intersection of the centerline of State Road (SR) #39 and the centerline of the abandoned railroad said point being the Point of Beginning;
Thence Southeasterly along a curve 280.92 feet said curve concave to the northeast, having a radius of 2913.00 feet a central angle of 5 Degrees 31 Minutes 31 Seconds, and a chord of 280.81 feet bearing South 47 Degrees 07 Minutes 59 Seconds East; thence North 89 Degrees 11 Minutes 19 Seconds West 208.50 feet to the centerline of SR #39; thence North 0 Degrees 48 Minutes 41 Seconds East along said centerline 188.10 feet to the Point of Beginning; said described tract containing 0.436 Acres, more or less.
COMMON DESCRIPTION: The property is located in the City of Monticello at 801 S. Main Street.
7. That the variances herein authorized and granted are not so typical or recurrent in nature as to make reasonable practicable the formulation of a general regulation under an amendment of the ordinance for the above said specific piece of property, and the Board additionally finds that the above said variances are based on the findings of fact so made that are required to be made under the provisions of Section 10.10 of the White County Zoning Ordinance, said findings of fact support and create a fact situation that authorizes the above said variances under the above said sections of the zoning ordinance.
The variance was granted based on the findings of fact by a vote of 3 affirmative and 0 negative.
Attorney Altman stated, okay announcing the results of the voting on petition #2786, there are 3 votes cast, 3 votes vote that the variance is hereby granted. You need to get a building permit before you proceed.
Carol Robertson stated, thank you, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you.
****
Appeal #6 Janice L. Herman, Appellant; Appellants are appealing the Area Plan Director’s revocation of Improvement Location Permits #17597 and #17598 for construction of detached garages at her residence.
President David Stimmel asked, and you are sir?
Steve Meyer stated, Steve Meyer with Ball Eggleston Attorney’s in Lafayette here representing the petitioner Jan Herman. Uh, I’d like to just make a few, make some comments, uh I don’t want to be redundant, we kind of talked about this at length last month but I do want to, I think it’s important to raise some points and then Jan’s got just a few points and some additional pictures to give you. Um, we have provided I think the Board with extensive exhibits from the last time and through our, through our writings and I trust that you’ve reviewed those photos and all the exhibits uh, that we provided. Um, the point I want to make here tonight is, is very important in the sense that this is not a variance. I know that, as you know on the agenda you’ve just heard a lot of variances. Your roll in variances, you have more discretion because you can kind of determine um, when to grant it and when to not and take several matters into affect. What we’re asking for here though is an appeal of an administrative decision that was made by your administrative officer and it’s my view of the law and of your code that you don’t have maybe quite as much discretion as you might in considering a variance. Um, and so it’s very important I think for this body as Mr. Altman started out in the beginning of the evening indicating that this is a quayside judicial body so it, in this role in the appeal role your basically sitting as a judicial body trying to determine um whether the code has been complied with and whether all procedures have been followed. Um, 2 things that we’re asking for you to decide I think this evening, number 1 is the original vacation of Jan Herman’s building permits. Um, she as you recall received a building permit not once but twice. Once in July and in August, issued by your executive officer and as you know the process for a location improvement permit is that you apply through Diann’s office and as the executive officer she then has the authority to grant the permits. Now I just want to point this out to you under your code um, 7.1 of your code and by the way it’s also important as we’re looking at this to understand that your old code is in place here, not your new code um, because of the timing of the application and granting of the permits. So your old code 7.1, after receiving information required by the improvement location permit the administrative officer shall review the standard set in the Ordinance if the applicant has met all required standards then within 3 working days the permit will be issued. Um, or shall be and this is important, if the applicant has met all required standards the permits shall be issued so your code does not give necessarily your director a lot of discretion here. The director has to determine have the standards been met, if so she shall issue the permit. Um, and she did that twice, she made the decision once in July and then again in August, uh, and so twice there were determinations that all standards have been met here with regard to these permits um but what happened here was then later on um, the permits were revoked and they were revoked by Diann in a letter, I think dated September 12th indicating that the Area Plan Commission had directed her to revoke the permits. I explained I think at length at the last meeting and also in my writings number 1 the Area Plan Commission had no legal authority to do that. The process is once a permit is granted by your executive officer it stands, it’s good, it’s valid. The only way to change that is for someone to come in and file an appeal to you the Board of Zoning Appeals. So the Board of Zoning Appeals is the only body that has the authority to overturn those permits. Your executive officer doesn’t have the authority to overturn or vacate the permits, your APC does not have that same authority. So the original basis of our appeal is that the action taken on September 12th was simply illegal, improper under your code so we’re asking you to vacate that decision made by your administrative officer because under your code neither she or the APC had the authority to do that. That’s number 1 we’re asking you to make that decision this evening and I think that that’s pretty clear and I believe that at the last meeting Mr. Altman didn’t have too many disagreements with that part of the argument. I’ll let Mr. Altman speak for himself but I think we’re on record there. Now once you decide that to vacate that decision you basically reinstated those permits um, and I think we got tangled up a bit at the last meeting is then what happens, should the permits remain valid, it’s our view yes they should and here’s why, when a permit is issued under your code uh, a person who wants to challenge the permit has 30 days from the date of the issuance of the permit to file an appeal to you, the Board of Zoning Appeals, if they miss the 30 days they have no right to file it. You as a body, the Board of Zoning Appeals has no authority under your code to hear it. The time line that I have been able to review um, from your record is the permit was issued on July 14th, Mr. Powers, a neighbor filed a letter on August 13th, so that’s just within the 30 days from the date of the issuance of that permit and I’ll address that later. There were 2 other letters filed by a neighbor Mr. Hanik and a neighbor Mr. Rojowoski, those were file on August 22nd and August 25th. Those were clearly beyond the 30 days as required by your code so Mr. Hanik and Mr. Rojowoski have waved their rights to object to this, to these permits because they didn’t follow your 30 day rule. It’s very clear and again as I said as your judicial body you have an obligation to review and enforce your code so with all due respect to Mr. Hanik and Mr. Rojowski or other neighbors that are here, if they didn’t preserve their rights they really have no right to object at this point in time nor, and you could rule that they don’t have a right to speak here today because they didn’t preserve their rights. Um, secondly if you find that the one appeal was preserved under Mr. Powers letter of August 13th because it was filed within 30 days from the original date of the issuance of the permit I would argue the following, your code requires that and appeal has to be filed before the Board of Zoning Appeals. I’m not sure that Mr. Powers letter fits that bill. Secondly, Mr. Powers letter basically complains that by building these garages he won’t be able to see pulling in and out. That is not a standard by which I find in your code that you can deny a permit and as I said earlier your executive officer has twice found that these permits meet all your standards. Basically I think the just of his complaint is a setback argument saying that these, that he feels that these garages as they’re built are going to be to close to the road but remember your setback requirement at the time of these permits was 5 feet from the road and he, and these permits, both proposals meet those setback requirements. They meet all other standards of your code regarding the height, width, the drainage, the sewage issues, all other standards going back to what I’d said earlier, it’s very important to remember that your administrative officer has a requirement shall issue the permits so long as they meet the standards. All the standards have been met here and any objections that your going to hear from Mr. Powers or otherwise doesn’t necessarily, doesn’t fit the standards as required by your code so even though he might of filed a letter of complaint within 30 days, it’s not sufficient because it doesn’t go to the standards by which you have to apply here so we believe that number 1, the action to revoke the permits has to be vacated and number 2, the permits stand on their own because they meet all of your standards. Um, Jan has a few more comments with regard to the actual effect of these garages but our view last time is simply this, by allowing these 2 garages to be built it allows her to pull her car closer to the house, further away off the road then it exists now. Right now 1 car sits almost near the road because she’s got a fence there. She’s going to remove that fence, build the garage up closer to the house and actually pull her car up closer to the house allowing 13 or 14 more feet between the end of her car and that street. That will improve visibility for the neighborhood. The other garage the same way, the garage will be built the car will be parked closer to the structure and not as close to the road. It will improve the site, in fact Mr. Hanik said last month that’s correct it will improve his site line as it exists now because the cars are parked so far close to the road. It will improve his site line by another 50’ and so these are, these permits are made as an effort to improve the site line and to be a good neighbor to the neighbors and we think that that’s what you’ll find and we think that that’s why they were originally approved because they meet all the standards and they in fact improve the situation out there. Thank you for your time.
President David Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Meyer. Jerry?
Jerry Thompson stated, yea I got a couple of questions, of course I missed last meeting but we listen to all of this and then we’re going to, we’ll be required to vote to uphold the Director’s decision or not.
President David Stimmel stated, I would assume that we’re going to take a motion one way or the other. We’ll be, require that the Director reissue the permits Jerry?
Attorney Altman stated, right.
President David Stimmel stated, stop me if I’m wrong.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
President David Stimmel stated, and I think that maybe the extent that we go, that the…
Jerry Thompson stated, I don’t like putting things off but I just want to make sure that both parties realize we’re short handed.
President David Stimmel stated, right.
Jerry Thompson stated, I’m a little uncomfortable about dealing this with a short, short board but yet I don’t like it being delayed either. I’m just bringing that up.
President David Stimmel stated, okay.
Steve Meyer stated, and we faced that problem last month as well.
President David Stimmel stated, well unfortunately.
Jerry Thompson stated, well and I was part of the problem.
Steve Meyer stated, and so you know we keep having to come back.
Attorney Altman stated, well when you’re sick, you’re sick.
President David Stimmel stated, yea.
Steve Meyer stated, I understand but I’m fighting a cough myself.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay I’ll just make sure.
President David Stimmel asked, Diann did you have anything to add to what Mr. Meyer is saying at this time?
Director Weaver stated, no, only just a little bit of a correction, um, which I think is probably immaterial but the permits under the old Ordinance were actually issued through the Building Department. They were reviewed through my office but they were actually signed off through the Building Department and Dave Anderson.
President David Stimmel stated, so if I missed, if I’m understanding this correctly we’re going, we’re, if we agree with Mr. Meyer, will the complaint we’re going to require that Mr. Anderson reissue those permits or yea, reissue the permits.
Attorney Altman stated, basically yes.
President David Stimmel stated, that’s the way I understand, that’s the way I understand it in layman’s terms. Okay, Charlie any thoughts?
Charlie Mellon stated, well I wanted to ask Diann, he said that the old Ordinance only had to be 5’ off. Is that right?
Director Weaver stated, that’s right.
President David Stimmel stated, yea, absolutely.
Charlie Mellon stated, okay the new one…
Director Weaver stated, from the overhang.
Charlie Mellon asked, yea the new one is 6 or 8?
Director Weaver stated, 20.
Steve Meyer stated, 20.
Charlie Mellon stated, 20.
Director Weaver stated, 20 in this zoning.
Charlie Mellon stated, oh okay.
President David Stimmel stated, that’d put them out in the middle of the lake.
Charlie Mellon stated, yea I didn’t know it, yea I didn’t know it was that there short the old one really, I thought it was either 6 or 8 so that’s all my questions.
President David Stimmel stated, okay. Anybody in the audience who wants, I’m sorry Mr. Meyer, I apologize sir but I know Mr. Meyer spoke that the complainant had something to add also, did she not?
Mr. Meyer stated, yea she just has some pictures to show what, how she thinks this will improve the situation…
President David Stimmel stated, okay does she want to do that now?
Mr. Meyer asked, do you want to do that now?
President David Stimmel stated, that’s fine, that’s fine, yea. Take care of all of this at one time or at least on that side of the coin.
Jan Herman stated, I’m Janice Herman, I’m the property owner of the um the properties that I’m wanting to put the garages on and first off I would, I want to say that um, I uh, you know I had contracted for garage door openers to be installed so that when I’m you know, coming and going that as I’m driving up I can click and drive right in so my car would always be inside and would not be visible on the street and there’s a, so you know I just wanted to make that point. Uh, second um, I’m going to be 59 in February and I have some permanent disabilities that are just going to, I’m really going to have a hardship if my cars are sitting outside of the, you know if there’s no garage and my cars are sitting outside and there’s major snow. There’s no way I can shovel the cars out from, from being buried in snow so I, you know that’s going to be a real hardship for me if I don’t have my garages and uh, um, another concern that I have uh, and another reason why my cars would always be parked in the garages is because um, I’ve become aware, I moved here full time at the beginning of June and I’ve become aware you know from eating out at local restaurants that people uh, that I don’t even know um, know when I’m home and when not home based on you know the cars there and so to me being a you know at my age and living alone and I have no family in the state at all. You know for me it’s also a security issue and one of the reasons why I want to always have my cars parked inside so that nobody will be able to identify whether I’m not home and they come in and burglarize or if they’re of the violent nature and I’m home and they come in and commit violence. So for those reasons you know I feel strongly that I’m going to have a hardship if I don’t have the garages. And the last thing I wanted to say is that um, the pictures I brought in um, I just wanted to give you an idea of what within a few doors of me on both sides of my properties, uh, what the parking standards are and um, during the summer especially these pictures were taken um, near the end of September, beginning of October so it was after the season but during the summer when all my neighbors are up and they have all of their family members and friends up, they’re parking all the way up to the um, the pavement, you know on their grass and you know that uh, that is an obstruction of the view of the traffic goes north bound on Shafer Drive and um also 4 doors to the south of me, um, there’s a house that is just um, the corner of the house is just 7’ off of the pavement and uh, um, it, and then when you add on top of that the properties all stacking up their cars and their friends cars and a lot of them drive vans. Um, Mr. Powers has mini vans plus he has a white panel van for his construction business and um, you know I get blocked by him just like he gets blocked by the person on the other side of him, just like that person gets blocked by them. Um, and anyway you know I just wanted to, here are the pictures of my immediate neighbors you know for those 4 doors to the south of me, there the ones with the north bound traffic now the they, they um would have that issue and on my neighbor that’s the second door to the north of me um, you know has uh, well both neighbors when they have a lot of friends, they have a lot, they’re pick up trucks and everything parked there but also I just have some pictures to show that you know storage of a large pontoon boat that is quite tall is this close, is close to, is blocking with all the visual. So I just wanted to make that point that um, a lot of peoples vehicles are, vehicles or their boats or, are blocking the view.
Charlie Mellon asked, you got more than one vehicle?
Jan Herman stated, I have 2 cars and I…
Charlie Mellon stated, yea. You building 2 car garages or just single car garages?
Jan Herman stated, on the properties at 5491, it’s a single car garage and on the property at 5499 is a 2 car garage and I do have a watercraft that I wanted to be able to store. I appreciate your consideration, thank you.
President David Stimmel stated, thank you Mrs. Herman.
Attorney Altman stated, okay for the record I marked, we received 5 photos that are essentially a unit or a staple or clipped together, I marked them as exhibit A 1 of 5, 2 of 5, 3 of 5, 4 of 5, 5 of 5 and then I marked the next one exhibit B and 1 of 3, 2 of 3, and 3 of 3, thank you very much.
President David Stimmel stated, sir sorry to keep you waiting, I’m sorry we had somebody all ready sir, I’ll get you in just a second.
John Hanik stated, good evening, my name is John Hanik, I’m directly north of Jan where she’s going to have one of these garages built. First I’d like to make a point of clarification, Mr. Meyer made a misstatement, that I said the line of site was going to be improved, that is not true. If you look at your minutes from last meeting, what I said Jan Herman’s got a 6’ stockade fence that’s 15’ out from her house and she parks her vehicles in front of that. She’s been, and I said she was gracious enough to give me about a 3’ path between the fence and her vehicle so I could look out and I’ve got about 150’ view to the street. What I showed you with the plot plan and the site plan that I presented to the Board last week, when she builds that garage I’m down to 120’. I don’t want to rehash all the safety issues, public safety issues and natural transportation safety board, stuff that I presented to the Board last week but I’ll be more than glad to, if you want me to. But it’s all on record.
President David Stimmel stated, one of the Board members has not heard some of this and I want to ask him, Jerry do you want to hear some of this or…
Jerry Thompson stated, no, it’s not necessary, nope.
President David Stimmel stated, all right, okay.
John Hanik stated, okay. Um, the next point of clarification that I would like to bring up is that he states that Jan Herman did fulfill all the requirements to get a permit. What I would like to point out to the Board is that when the inspector went out to inspect the property in August he found the original site plan that she had presented to the Board or presented to the county to get the, issues, I mean the permits was falsified, it was incorrect, I shouldn’t say falsified, it was incorrect, okay.
President David Stimmel stated, okay.
John Hanik stated, sorry, at that point in time that’s why it was put on hold. I have spoken to a couple of different county officials in this very building and they’re opinion gave me the following, that when she applied for the permit she was assigned permit numbers and it was all contingent upon the inspector approving the site. It wasn’t until after you put it on hold that she had to go back and get another site plan done professionally and that wasn’t until August the 28th that the permits were reinstated and she was issued them and when I say issued, she was given the placard, not before that so my contention of me being late in filing my complaint I’m saying that’s not fair, it’s improper. Also, I stated the last meeting my lot lines have been changed, it’s true, there was another surveyor out for the 5th time, they’ve done another GPS survey, my lot was supposed to be 48’, I’m under 47’ now. Not only was it changed but my original rebar has been removed, I’m not going to fight it but what I would like out of the county if that’s the way it’s going to be I want to get this all settled but reduce my taxes, you know this is getting crazy. I’m told it’s illegal to remove somebody’s rebar and yet it was done. That’s the only question.
President David Stimmel stated, go ahead.
Director Weaver stated, I think I need to clarify the process for the building permit under the old Ordinance.
President David Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, um, when somebody comes in to apply for a permit they bring in a site plan, their deed, their property record card, they take it to Shelly in the Building Department. It is all submitted to her as part of the process it goes, the Building Department looks at their information how the project’s going to be built, it was then passed on to me and I look at it, the site plan to see where it’s going to be built. If it meets our standards then I sign off on that. It’s also reviewed by the surveyor which in this matter is not important but it goes to all 3 departments before the Building Department issues a permit and there was a placard issued to Janice Herman on July 14th.
John Hanik stated, okay, I was told differently.
Director Weaver stated, okay, um, and it was put on hold after that and those placards were amended on August 28th when the correct site plan was brought in but I think everybody needs to understand that process to understand what all transpired.
President David Stimmel stated, okay, all right.
John Hanik stated, okay. The only other point I want to make to I’ve got my family here with me this week, yesterday even with this line of site that I’ve got today which Jan gave me that 3’ so I can see, I almost got hit yesterday. Some guy must have been doing 45, 50 going down there and all I’m saying is if you let these garages go up I’m down to 120’ somebody’s going to get killed. That’s all I’m going to say.
President David Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Hanik.
John Hanik stated, thank you.
President David Stimmel asked, yes sir?
John Powers stated, hello everyone, I’m John Powers. I’m the neighbor directly next door to her, where these garages want to be built.
Charlie Mellon asked, on south?
John Powers stated, I guess yes sir, on the other side, he’s on one side, I’m on the other.
Charlie Mellon stated, okay.
John Powers stated, all right when um, her attorney started talking he said that this isn’t a variance hearing, it’s an appeals hearing um, so I don’t know why she got to go on saying about her hardship about how much she needs these garages that has no, no bearing according to her attorney. I don’t know why she did that.
President David Stimmel stated, well believe me we’re letting anybody speak.
John Powers stated, all right.
President David Stimmel stated, we’re kind of letting, we’re kind of loosening things up a little bit certainly…
John Powers stated, here’s the letter that I…
President David Stimmel asked, do you mind if I finish sir?
John Powers stated, oh okay.
President David Stimmel stated, all right, just, we’re letting everybody speak as they would like to, try to get as much in to evidence that we can.
John Powers stated, okay.
President David Stimmel stated, okay, thank Mr. Powers, go ahead.
John Powers stated, all right, I’ve got a letter here this is the letter that he referred to, it’s dated on the 13th that I faxed into Area Planning, um, he stated about the rules and the regulations about how you can’t um, appeal, well her placards that she was issued, nobody could see them because she’s got a 6’ high privacy fence in front of her house. One of the rules and regulations out of the White County Zoning Ordinances says that the fence can’t be higher than 3 ½’ in order, between the house and the street. So if you put something in your window behind a 6’ high fence no one will be able to see it. Um she was allowed to build that. Also he said that you guys don’t have the permission to take that permit from her, it says not to be hazardous or disturbing to existing neighboring uses, sorry this is went off at the exact wrong time um, rule number 12.5.8 it says it’s not to be hazardous or disturbing to existing neighboring uses. I won’t be able to get out of my um, parking spot. There will be 11’ between the road and the edge of her garage. My car is 17’ long, I’ll be 7’ out in the road before my bumper clears the edge of the road. Um, it also states in that same rule that it says have vehicular approaches to the properties which shall be so designed as to not to create an interference with traffic on surrounding public thoroughfares. If you pull a car out of a garage at 17’ long with only 10’ long that right there is just wrong. It goes against common sense. It’s designed to create an interference with traffic on surrounding public thoroughfares. Also if those things are allowed to be built one of the other rules in the Zoning Board says a site triangle of 25’, if the garage is built next to his driveway, is allowed to be built there it doesn’t meet this all ready existing rule that’s on your books, sorry about that.
President David Stimmel asked, sir would you mind just shutting that off.
John Powers stated, yea I tried to the first time, sorry.
President David Stimmel stated, thank you.
John Powers stated, I’d like to apologize, I’m kind of nervous, I never spoke like this…
President David Stimmel stated, that’s all right, your doing fine.
John Powers stated, all right, um, I faxed this paper in, I was in communication prior to that with the Building Department and prior to the um, with the Zoning Department. Here’s a copy of her site plan, right here, here’s a copy of a survey that was in Diann Weaver’s office from when she built the fences. On this survey it’s got a 10’ setback that’s clearly marked right here, if you were to use this survey which was on record in the Building Department office that only leaves her, she had 40’ to begin with that only leaves her 30’, she wants to build a 24’ garage with the 5’ distance between the house and the garage. That leaves 1’ to the road, if you take the original site survey, the original survey that’s on file with the, and you do the math it comes quite a bit different then this. The Building Department guy, I forget his name said the reason why he revoked the permits is because these dimensions that’s on this site plan do not go with these dimensions and do not go with the actual property there. So with that being said the original, the original one dated on the 14th is null and void on face value because it’s got false information on it. There’s no statutory provision in Indiana law that says that a document filed with false information on it is void on it’s face. Then you have another document that’s dated on the 28th and the new Ordinance was in place on the 28th. This document is void because the dimensions don’t add up to the dimensions that’s actually on the property and with that being said, um, the reason why the rule was changed was for public safety and I’ve got 3 kids, I’ve got 3 kids and having a garage on a 35 mile an hour curve in the road and the busiest street, one of the busiest streets in the area is, it’s just crazy. Um, people come and go down that, it’s West Shafer Drive, it’s not like it’s back, you know it’s not a um, side street or anything. Um, would anybody like any, would anybody like this?
Attorney Altman stated, I think we have a copy of that sir. It’s part of the record of this matter.
John Powers stated, I’ve got a whole stack of them that’s on here if you’d like the, and I also got a picture of approximately where these garages are going to be in relation to the road. I stretched this string from one side to the other, took a picture, stepped it off the old fashioned way by my feet and that little bit of distance there has no room for a car to come or go. You know with that being said I think I responded to his points about how it should be allowed because of the original one was dated the 14th, the original one is null and void because I can go by letter here, um, the information was inaccurate and deliberately misleading um, there’s some efficient documentation in your possession to substantiate this accusation. Any application of the previous Ordinance in this matter is done so under color of law, there is no state statutory provision nor legal president which allows you the desertion of having a fraudulent document amended. It is void on it’s face. Does anybody have any questions?
President David Stimmel stated, I would like a copy of that if you don’t mind sir, if you’ve got one you can spare.
John Powers stated, I’ve got a whole stack of them.
President David Stimmel stated, okay, thanks Mr. Powers.
John Powers stated, your welcome.
President David Stimmel stated, I’m not sure, one of each. Okay, thanks Mr. Powers. Yes sir, I’m sorry Charlie go ahead.
Charlie Mellon stated, no I was point to him, I didn’t know if you saw him or not.
President David Stimmel stated, oh okay, all right.
Mark Rojkowski stated, my name is Mark Rojkowski I live at, what the hells my address, I’m sorry I’m a little, I’m the neighbor with the pontoon boat. My question is, is originally I filed a complaint and then you received a letter from me that it was resended, is that correct? Do you have that for the record?
Director Weaver stated, yes.
Mark Rojkowski stated, well however you see a picture of my pontoon boat, I can assure you that in the spring that boat will be removed and chances are next year that boat won’t be in that same location, however since you do see where my boat is in my original letter, it never was an issue of northbound traffic, it was the traffic southbound on Northwest Shafer Drive. Thank you.
President David Stimmel stated, thank you. Yes Mr. Meyer?
Steve Meyer stated, I feel I need to respond to just a couple of things from Mr. Powers.
President David Stimmel stated, sure.
Steve Meyer stated, and I’ll be very brief. The statutes that, the standards he quoted and I try to find them 12.58 or something, that’s your new code book, that’s your new code book and as I said earlier because the permits were applied for in July before the application or before the, before the new code, the new code doesn’t apply in this matter. I think it’s very clear and under the state law it’s very clear that the permits were applied for and issued before the adoption of your new code book so we are under the old code so most of what you heard from Mr. Powers unfortunately is not binding upon this and should not be binding upon this Board because you cannot apply the old standards to this particular issue and just to clarify and I think Diann did clarify it, the original permit was issued, here’s the placard was issued on July 14th, um and I just need to clear the record there was no fraudulent submissions at all in this case and my client takes great hum bridge or to any notion to that affect. What happened was she provided a hand written site plan, originally it was seen as acceptable then they called her back and said we’d like a more detailed site plan. We did that, that’s what lead to the amended, amended permit but it’s, I just need to respond there was no fraud, there was no intent to defraud anybody here, um she’s followed all the rules and requests made of her every step of the way through out this process.
President David Stimmel stated, okay thank you Mr. Meyer. Yes sir?
John Powers stated, one more thing I’d like to respond to his, um, a couple of things to respond to on the back of that placard I’m sure it says somewhere in there in plain view, somewhere posted in the window in plain view.
President David Stimmel stated, okay.
John Powers stated, all right if you don’t have plain view you’re supposed to put it, I know of construction, your supposed to put it on a stick out on the street so people can see it. Um and the reason why I brought up the term fraudulent is because people in this area are under the assumption that the legal right of way and I’ve heard this from people who do those types of drawings, the legal right of way is 20’ from the middle of the road. The roads 12’ wide you take the 12’ you add the 8 that’s left and then the 5’ setback equals 13’. Her original one is clearly marked 13 ½’ with the intention of having that extra half of foot from the centerline of the road in order to fit that thing in. That’s why I use those terms.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
John Powers stated, even though you can measure it and it comes up 7’ different. Anybody who would build, or do a thing there um, it’s 7’ different. It’s not like, we’re not talking a couple of inches different and her second one, her second plan is quite a bit different then her first one, it’s moved the garage closer to the house, did a different footing and it’s not the same site plan. It’s not the same site plan.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Powers. Yes sir?
John Hanik stated, just one last thing, I just want to reiterate again, I mean in 2 months we’ve almost had 4 accidents. It’s again, it’s not a matter of if an accidents going to happen, it’s going to be when and somebody’s going to get seriously hurt or killed. I wish everyone of you could be out there and see.
President Stimmel stated, there you go sir sorry we had to change the recording.
John Hanik stated, okay. Our line of site is coming off a curve, coming from the south, we have no, no warning. A car if it’s doing 30 miles an hour like the speed limit is I have less then 3 seconds to get out of my garage. You sit there and tell me that’s safe. Thank you.
President Stimmel stated, actually my editorial comment would be is that the county ought to go out there and buy about 300’ along the highway and just kick them all out to be honest with you. That’s the safest thing quite frankly. Because they shouldn’t be there in the first place, it’s a bad, bad location and I agree with you it’s unsafe. Anybody else want to speak for or against the variance?
Steve Meyer stated, not the variance, the appeal.
President Stimmel stated, pardon me?
Steve Meyer stated, the appeal.
President Stimmel stated, I’m sorry, I apologize for that Mr. Meyer, my apologize.
Steve Meyer stated, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, force of habit, I do apologize.
Steve Meyer stated, I understand.
President Stimmel asked, against the appeal or for the appeal? Jerry? I think I’m thinking what you’re thinking. I think Mr. Powers brought some interesting points although I can’t line of first sight that one is with you know, the old one versus the new. I couldn’t identify that myself. I’m sure there is some overlap.
Attorney Altman stated, there’s one thing.
President Stimmel stated, okay Jerry, yes.
Attorney Altman asked, uh, Diann the new Ordinance was adopted and the old Ordinance was revoked on what day?
Director Weaver stated, August 4th, 2008.
Attorney Altman stated, okay very good, I just want that in the record.
Director Weaver stated, and I do agree with Mr. Meyer that the Ordinance that Mr. Powers was referring to is the new Ordinance.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right.
Attorney Altman stated, so I guess the only thing I can say, we’re in the process of deliberation right now as I understand it. Uh, a couple of things that, that do need procedurally brought up, uh, the appeal to the Board of Zoning Appeals is handled on 8.30 and on that, in that it very clearly says that the aggrieved action is a point of reference if you will and that they basic, anybody that appeals that aggrieved action has no more then 30 days from that time to file an appeal with us, okay, with the Board of Zoning Appeals. Uh, the Board is in the position where it can interpret and in fact find the facts and the law here as a quayside judicial body. We have a permit that everybody agrees was issued on the 14th and then on the 28th we have a permit that was issued and the Board can, could decide that it was amended from a previous permit, it could decide that it was in fact a new permit on that day, I’m not recommending this I’m just trying to give you the parameters of your potential decisions this evening that it was in fact issued, it is a new permit and issued on the August the 28th, 2008, okay so you’ve got 2 things there that you can work with as a judicial body finding, determining whether there is one or two permits or an amendment of one permit. And that plays around what Mr. Powers mentioned and I think everybody’s clear that he’s sighting from the new Ordinance which was issued on August 4, 2008, which is the date after the second permit or the amended permit was issued, okay. The other thing would be is whether the complaints of Mr. Hauck, no I’m sorry John I mispronounced your last name which we received on the, or Mr. Powers uh, gave us on, I’m trying to get that date so we can just fundamentally have it in the record, on the 22nd, Mr. Rojkowski and I again apologize for butchering that name on the 25th and then we had uh, a couple of others that were received on the 9-30, 2008. Uh, I guess what I’m saying is, is there’s these matters and there’s played off against this 30 days, um, that an aggrieved action and again I’m reading from the Ordinance here on 8.30 uh, triggers and puts their either in play or too late or too early maybe.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Mr. Meyer?
Steve Meyer asked, can I respond to that?
President Stimmel stated, sure.
Steve Meyer stated, that’s new information.
President Stimmel stated, sure.
Attorney Altman stated, nothing new that’s an interpretation.
Steve Meyer stated, right, and I never had a chance to talk about this interpretation matter but if you look at the record the permits were issued on the 14th under the same number as they were reissued or as they were issued as an amended, you know in August so they were not new permits, they were still issued under the same numbers. They were labeled amended permits, they were not labeled new permits but more importantly I site to you Indiana Code 36.7.4.1109, this is a statute that went into effect and it goes to what happens when a board changes the zoning rules sort of in the middle of the process when an application or permit has all ready been granted and this says if a person files a complete application as required by the Ordinance for a permit with the appropriate local agency the granting of the permit, the granting of any secondary, additional, or related permits or approvals from that agency shall be in effect for 3 years even if before the issuance or the granting of the permit, the local board changes the zoning rules. This amended permit, we believe still goes, relates back to the 14th but this statute says if the granting of any secondary additional or related permits so Mr. Altman urges you to consider this as a new permit, it’s not a new permit it’s…
Attorney Altman stated, I’m not urging that.
Steve Meyer stated, okay, you’re suggesting you could maybe make that finding.
Attorney Altman stated, I’m urging that it is evidence and whether it is a related permit…
Steve Meyer stated, yea.
Attorney Altman stated, is in question in fact that this Board has to determine too.
Steve Meyer stated, and my position is absolutely a related permit because the only thing that changed was the dimensions made a little shorter and the new site plan was filed, the same subject matter.
Attorney Altman stated, and Mr. Powers would say just the opposite.
Steve Meyer stated, the same subject matter.
Attorney Altman stated, and that’s for the Board to decide.
President Stimmel stated, all right. Mr. Thompson, Jerry do you want to proceed or what do you want to do?
Jerry Thompson stated, I’ve got a question.
John Powers asked, sir can I respond to that really quick?
President Stimmel stated, just a second please.
Jerry Thompson stated, no, um, no matter how we vote whether it’s tonight or 30 days from tonight or whatever but whenever this vote happens, is this final or can someone else appeal?
Attorney Altman stated, it certainly can.
President Stimmel stated, it can be appealed to the courts.
Steve Meyer stated, court.
Attorney Altman stated, it’s appealed by writ of certiorari to the Circuit Court of White County and that can be appealed to the Appellate Court. It’s just the way it always happens Jerry.
President Stimmel stated, Jerry, just, just talking I, you, this is the first time you’ve heard all this stuff and I, quite frankly I would like the time to digest it myself and I hate to delay it again but I really do believe that in the best interest to make the right decision that would be my choice right this minute, that’s just me. Charlie what do you…
Charlie Mellon stated, well the other 2 members has heard the first part.
President Stimmel stated, yea they have, they have.
Charlie Mellon stated, it’s only a 5 member board.
President Stimmel stated, I think that would be relatively quick the next time but I just don’t, I’m getting more uncomfortable.
Jerry Thompson stated, I don’t like delaying it either, I don’t like delaying anything but if I was on that side of the room as important as this is I wouldn’t like the, I wouldn’t want to look at 3 votes and vice versa but I know time, time is an issue.
Charlie Mellon stated, but the opposition can’t delay it, I don’t think.
President Stimmel stated, no they can’t, it’s up to us to table it if we want to do that, if that’s in fact the case Charlie, I believe.
Jerry Thompson stated, just, just a question Diann. Could we have rather than the regular scheduled meeting, can we, can we have a special meeting for this lets say in a week or 2 weeks time?
Director Weaver stated, I believe so.
Attorney Altman stated, you certainly can.
Jerry Thompson stated, in lieu of time so we don’t loose 30 days here.
Attorney Altman stated, certainly can as long as we, the only thing I worry about is whether we have a better chance of having 5 members here…
Jerry Thompson stated, if we show up with 3 it’s going to look bad.
Attorney Altman stated, however we know we don’t tonight and in a week or so we may so that would be a good thing.
Jerry Thompson stated, I don’t want to wait 30 days, I just, at all but I’d…
Attorney Altman stated, well we got next week has Thanksgiving so…
Jerry Thompson stated, Thanksgiving, yes.
Attorney Altman asked, are we talking about Monday or Tuesday next week or are we talking about the next week after that?
Jerry Thompson asked, how long does it, time frame does it have to be advertised?
Attorney Altman stated, oh it isn’t readvertised, it’s just continued to a date certain here.
Charlie Mellon stated, it don’t have to be readvertised.
Attorney Altman stated, no.
Charlie Mellon stated, first week of December would be 2 weeks.
Jerry Thompson stated, the sooner the better for my part but I know that’s…
Charlie Mellon stated, like on a Thursday.
President Stimmel stated, okay. Diann what do you, I’m going to back up just a little bit here from the stand point of procedure just what, when you listen to this and you’ve heard all Mr. Powers, Mr. Meyer, and, the permits were issued, the first permit was issued with the proper information, they came in with the right stuff, right?
Director Weaver stated, they came in with the right stuff but, but the information on the site plan was not correct.
President Stimmel stated, it was not, were some of the fundamentals, I mean in a sense that the setback from the highway was that what was incorrect or was it other parts of…
Director Weaver stated, yes, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, the setback from the highway.
President Stimmel stated, so the amended permit then based on still using the same numbers Mr. Meyer said it’s an amended permit that was issued using the new site plan, right?
Director Weaver stated, correct.
President Stimmel asked, which was correct?
Director Weaver stated, yes.
President Stimmel asked, okay and how did it differ? I remember seeing it but I can’t remember what the numbers were right off the top of my head, we had them last week but I don’t remember how the difference was.
Director Weaver stated, I can’t answer that off the top of my head.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Attorney Altman stated, here’s the second drawing.
President Stimmel stated, I think it was a hand drawing wasn’t it, yea, right.
Several Board Members are talking at once.
President Stimmel asked, this again was the first drawing, right? She got the first permit and this was 7’ from the, right, 7’ from the road there and then if I go back here and look it’s 6’9”, 3” different. I’m looking at 6 9 here.
Director Weaver stated, right.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, but they did, they shortened it up and I don’t remember which one but they changed the diminutions of one of these garages.
President Stimmel stated, garages, right okay 22…
Director Weaver asked, was it just one of them or both of them?
Steve Meyer stated, just 1, just shortened it by 2’.
President Stimmel stated, yea they shortened it by 2’.
Director Weaver stated, the one at 5499 is that the one you shortened?
Jan Herman stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, right, that’s 2’ shorter. So that’s 6’ 9 from the apparent right-of-way and this was 7’ from the apparent right-of-way on the first drawing so according to that 3”.
Director Weaver stated, well but they shortened the garage too by 2’.
President Stimmel stated, but they, but still the essence of it being that it’s still 6’ 9 or 7’.
Director Weaver stated, um hum.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, and that is to the edge of the pavement.
President Stimmel stated, that’s to the edge of the pavement.
Director Weaver stated, right.
President Stimmel stated, so it goes back to my, the way the direction I was headed with this thing was so that was issued correctly.
Director Weaver stated, it was, it was amended based on the survey.
President Stimmel stated, on, and Dave went out and stopped work on it?
Charlie Mellon stated, need to get Anderson in here the next meeting.
President Stimmel asked, or how did that happen?
Director Weaver stated, I don’t know what originally transpired, yes the Building Department is the one that put the stop to it originally, I don’t know what transpired to cause that.
Charlie Mellon stated, Dave, why don’t we get Anderson here at the next meeting.
President Stimmel stated, well, okay, okay. Mr. Powers can I ask you a question please?
John Powers stated, yes sir I’ve got, I’m pretty good with numbers and I do building and stuff and I’ve got all those numbers memorized if you’d like to…
President Stimmel stated, okay, no what I’m curious about is, you faxed a letter to Diann’s office, or surveyors office. It says received a faxed letter from John J. Powers opposing the permits.
John Powers stated, yes sir.
President Stimmel asked, how did you determine that you wanted to oppose the permits? Did you see the permit in the window or on the, on the fence or…
John Powers stated, my, no I didn’t, I didn’t know there was a permit, how I knew there was a permit was it was summertime, I was sleeping in the front door, she had a contractor come over wanting to build the garage out in the front. The guy said there’s not enough room here to build the garage he tells her this a couple, 2, 3 times. She has 2, 3 different contractors come over, finally somebody else said hey I’m going to be doing some work over there, their building a garage next, in front of your house because they marked the, they marked the orange spray paint and stuff on the thing so I asked the people over at the filling station across the street, hey what’s going on over there and they told me I guess she’s having some garages built and that’s how I found out. If you take a, can I look at one of those permits, the actual placard thing where it says on the back of it. Um on the back of it, it says that it should be displayed in clear view in order for it to be, do you have a copy of the back of it?
Charlie Mellon stated, yea right there they are.
John Powers stated, no the back of it.
Charlie Mellon stated, yea it’s got writing on it.
Director Weaver stated, I think it’s there, yea.
President Stimmel stated, I believe it’s there.
John Powers stated, no it says on the back of a permit, it says that this should be posted in clear view but he won’t let me look at it.
Charlie Mellon stated, right there it is.
John Powers stated, oh okay. It says that it should be, here you go, must place in a conspicuous place and remain in place entire time period of construction.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
John Powers stated, I don’t know, I’ve never seen this before today. No one else on this block has seen it before today. We got a whole flock of people in here who hasn’t seen this before today.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
John Powers stated, so it says right there is a conspicuous place.
President Stimmel stated, I’m just trying to get an understanding about how you, how you knew to…
John Powers stated, I do building for a living and that kind of stuff and I could…
President Stimmel stated, okay I understand now how you found out that’s what I was trying to understand.
John Powers stated, all right.
President Stimmel stated, thank you Mr. Powers.
John Powers stated, all right in what you guys said that was like 7” different actually it’s…
Attorney Altman stated, Mr. Powers we’re deliberating.
President Stimmel stated, yea, I got it on the survey so I think we know where we’re going there.
John Powers stated, all right.
President Stimmel asked, yes ma’am? Yes ma’am?
Jan Herman stated, the way I understand that the permits are to be displayed from you know from the beginning of construction. They were placed in windows and were viewable, the house that has the fence around it, the bathroom window is an up and down window and the permit was above that and you can see it from the street. You can view, you can see that there’s a permit and read it from that distance. Also um, the date that that construction was starting was on um, August 13th, that and I asked my contractor Eric Stevenson you know, where, you know what was the best place to be putting these permits and you know he advised me in the windows where they were viewable so I placed the, before anything even started the permits were placed in the windows and then in an hour and a half or so when he was on the phone and Dave Anderson told him to cease work um, and Eric Stevenson advised me that they need to stop right now and that I needed to go in you know, I would need to go in the Building Department so at that point I took my permits out of the window because the work had stopped and brought them in and met with Dave Anderson.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jan Herman stated, and I would also just like to say that on Monday August 13th Mr. Powers wasn’t there at his residence.
President Stimmel stated, well the surveyors office received a faxed letter from Mr. Powers and I don’t know where he was at and it probably doesn’t make a heck of a lot of difference quite frankly as long as we received the letter.
Charlie Mellon stated, Dave it looks like the contractor Eric Stevenson would know about how close that was to the road.
President Stimmel stated, um hum. What I’m trying to get to is just is that the, Dave stopped the construction because the original drawing was incorrect, is my understanding that’s without taking testimony from Dave Anderson.
Director Weaver stated, and I don’t know how he found that out, I don’t know what evidence was given to him, if he went out on site, I don’t know the details on that because I was not involved at that point.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Director Weaver stated, I was not involved until after he stopped the work.
President Stimmel stated, so then Mrs. Herman submitted then another site plan to Dave right, to Mr. Anderson, right?
Director Weaver stated, no I believe she did bring that to me.
President Stimmel stated, to you, okay.
Director Weaver stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, and she’s showing the one that we say is revised is the one that has the smaller garage and has a difference in the setback, right?
Director Weaver stated, well that was actually the third one.
President Stimmel stated, that was actually the third site plan.
Director Weaver stated, yea there was one survey brought to me that did not show any setbacks to the rear property line and I did not accept it. She did leave me a copy but I did not accept it because it did not have the information that was necessary.
President Stimmel stated, does this, okay all right you didn’t accept it so it’s really no, of no value.
Charlie Mellon asked, who accepted the new one, the last one?
Director Weaver stated, I did.
President Stimmel stated, Diann did.
Charlie Mellon asked, how come you done it instead of Dave?
Director Weaver stated, because I’m the one that reviews the site plans not Dave.
Charlie Mellon stated, okay.
Director Weaver stated, that second survey just was looks like it was brought in on the 25th of August.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Director Weaver stated, and then the third on brought in on the 28th of August.
President Stimmel asked, the 28th?
Director Weaver stated, um hum.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Charlie Mellon stated, I think we’d better get Dave in here and have it done next week.
Jerry Thompson stated, I’d like a meeting as soon as possible.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, I don’t know about other people but of course Thanksgiving is Thursday, I think Wednesday is out probably church services in the area, I’d go as early as Tuesday or when ever everyone’s available.
President Stimmel asked, Tuesday the 2nd or the 9th?
Jerry Thompson stated, I’m talking next week.
Director Weaver stated, no he’s talking next week.
Charlie Mellon stated, next week.
President Stimmel stated, next week.
Jerry Thompson stated, ASAP, as soon as we can get Dave here and at least one additional Board member and…
President Stimmel stated, I bet we can get them both.
Jerry Thompson asked, too soon?
President Stimmel asked, will that work for anybody or not work for anybody?
Steve Meyer stated, both my client and I will be gone next week.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, your gone next wee, okay.
President Stimmel stated, all right.
Steve Meyer stated, for the holiday, I’m sorry.
Jerry Thompson stated, I understand I know it’s…
President Stimmel stated, all right, so the week of December the 1st then Jerry.
Jerry Thompson stated, I can, I can do that.
Steve Meyer stated, she’ll return on the 4th.
President Stimmel stated, return on the 4th.
Steve Meyer asked, is it the 4th, that Thursday?
Jan Herman stated, I would be, I return on Wednesday night and so I would be available on Thursday the 4th.
President Stimmel stated Thursday night the 4th of December.
Jan Herman stated, yea.
President Stimmel stated, is that okay with everybody or anybody object to that date.
Jerry Thompson stated, yep.
John Powers asked, what day.
President Stimmel stated, interested parties.
Jerry Thompson stated, the 4th of December.
President Stimmel stated, the 4th of December.
Charlie Mellon asked, it’s on Thursday isn’t it?
John Powers stated, that’s my wedding anniversary.
Someone from the audience stated, good he can’t come, keep it going. He canceled it one week he can cancel it another week.
President Stimmel asked, what do you, do you feel like you can attend for an hour or so or not?
John Powers asked, what’s that?
President Stimmel stated, if that’s what you want to do.
John Powers stated, no I can’t because we’ve got plans for that day.
President Stimmel asked, okay what about the 5th?
John Powers stated, we’ve got 2 days of going away.
President Stimmel asked, the 8th, the following Monday?
John Powers asked, Monday?
Director Weaver stated, can’t do it then it’s APC.
Charlie Mellon stated, no that’s the Board meeting.
President Stimmel stated, Board meeting, okay. Tuesday the 9th?
Jerry Thompson asked, anybody busy on Sunday afternoon?
President Stimmel stated, yea. Now we’re not going to do this just to delay people okay ma’am, we’re just not going to do that. We’re not going to get into that at all, okay. I mean I’m trusting you folks on blind faith here okay that we’re not delaying this just to be a jackass, okay.
John Powers stated, I have no intention of doing that.
President Stimmel stated, all right I don’t want to be in you know rude about it but…
John Powers stated, I really…
President Stimmel stated, that’s not what this Board’s going to do all right and if I get that feeling or get that impression you’re not going to advance your cause I guarantee you, okay that’s not going to advance your cause. Trying to get the facts and trying to get everything straight and treat everybody fairly, okay. Yes sir?
John Hanik , the only question I have now is am I still part of this or not?
President Stimmel stated, you absolutely are sir.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, I mean any testimony that your going to give I mean as long as it’s not redundant I have no problem listening to what you are, what we’re trying to get is as much information as we can.
John Hanik stated, I didn’t know if I was over ruled or…
President Stimmel stated, your fine, Jerry?
Jerry Thompson asked, you’re gone all next week?
Jan Herman stated, yes.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, so I’m hearing the 9th is the earliest possible date. Okay the 9th is it.
Jerry Thompson stated, that’ll work.
President Stimmel asked, will that work for you Diann? I didn’t ask you.
Jerry Thompson stated, I hope.
President Stimmel stated, I’m going to drag the other 2 kicking and screaming.
Jerry Thompson stated, yep we got to have them that’s all there is to it.
Attorney Altman stated, I agree with that.
Director Weaver asked, do you want the Building Inspector here?
Mark Rojkowski asked, since I gave you my letter of resigning it, I’m out right?
Jerry Thompson stated, you can attend, I mean.
President Stimmel stated, you can attend I mean you’re welcome to attend we’re just…
Mark Rojkowski stated, I’m okay cause it’s just work and I can’t be here.
President Stimmel stated, okay that’s fine, we’ve got the input and we appreciate that sir we really do.
Jerry Thompson stated, yep, that’s right.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right. Okay so we’re going to table this thing until the 9th of December and that’s the Board’s decision.
Jerry Thompson stated, yep I’ll make the motion.
Charlie Mellon stated, I’ll second it.
President Stimmel stated, okay Jerry made a motion, Charlie seconded it. All in favor say aye.
Board Members stated, aye.
President Stimmel stated, it’s tabled.
Director Weaver stated, I have a question.
President Stimmel asked, yes?
Director Weaver asked, do you want me to try to have the Building Inspector here?
President Stimmel stated, yes, yes.
Jerry Thompson stated, most definitely.
President Stimmel stated, absolutely.
Jerry Thompson stated, yes.
President Stimmel asked, Mr. Meyer.
Steve Meyer asked, what time?
President Stimmel asked, would anybody object to it being a little earlier then 7:30?
Jerry Thompson stated, we can do it earlier.
President Stimmel asked, can we, folks can we do it at 5:30 instead of 7:30?
John Powers stated, whatever it takes to settle it.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, 5:30.
John Powers stated, I’ve got an hour and a half drive but if it’s 5:30, it’s 5:30.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
John Powers stated, and you’re an hour difference so.
Jerry Thompson stated, we’ll do her.
President Stimmel stated, that’d be 4:30, your driving north is that what you’re saying.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay, all right 5:30.
John Hanik stated, thank you, everybody have a nice Thanksgiving.
President Stimmel stated, thank you.
Jerry Thompson stated, thank you.
President Stimmel stated, thank you very much for your input.
Jerry Thompson asked, now you’ll re-advertise?
Director Weaver stated, it doesn’t need to be advertised.
Jerry Thompson stated, it doesn’t need to be. They won’t get mailings, they won’t get anything?
Director Weaver stated, no.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay, all right.
****
President Stimmel stated, I hope we get this straight. Now we have another issue before us this is Mr. Wilson.
Roger Wilson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, and I think we listened to you last time Mr. Wilson and…
Roger Wilson stated, the last 2.
President Stimmel stated, the last 2 all right and I would tell you and just from my perspective that everything I’ve heard up to this point and I’m not trying to shut you off but I’m just telling you that nothing I see this week or month has changed from the last time and that is that Diann issued you the fine notice uh, you’ve done nothing that I’ve seen yet to prove that you shouldn’t be fined, I mean I don’t see you with a new survey that says that there’s describing where the property lines are with stakes ect., ect. And as far as I’m concerned you’re just from my standpoint 1 out of 3 but you’re still in violation and I’m about ready to, unless you can come up with something to prove your not.
Roger Wilson stated, you had Dave’s, you told Diann that you wanted Dave to come out there and give a decision. Dave came out there, I showed him all the stakes, showed him everything. There was only 1 mistake that I made when I went off my parents survey I thought the survey said 15’ and Dave said it’s no, it’s 16’ so there was 1’ difference on the pictures that I gave you, there’s only 1’ difference so it shows from my parents survey that instead of my house being a foot over the property line that my house is right on the property line. I showed him the other survey stakes that whoever did it, I don’t know showed him those and then I showed him the survey stakes that showed up after the flood down at the beginning of the street and his very first thing was he told me that the stakes are supposed to be at least 3, pounded 3’ in the ground from surface to the ground, approximately 3’. The survey stakes that were there he went up there and he shook it like this to show that that was only a temporary, that wasn’t an original stake and he even came through and I helped him make measurements off of different stakes that he could go by and he says there’s no way I can make the decision.
President Stimmel asked, so he couldn’t make the decision?
Roger Wilson stated, and she was, he said he was supposed to give you a letter.
Director Weaver stated, no he did not provide me a letter and that is basically what I understand from him was that no he can’t make that determination.
President Stimmel stated, he can’t make that determination so in my book you’re still, you still need a survey.
Roger Wilson stated, yea but if I still need a survey then you got 2 different surveys now, now what’s a 3rd survey going to do? I’m going to pay $300 out and what if it comes in between, that’s 3 different surveys.
Director Weaver asked, do we have 3 surveys of your property?
Roger Wilson stated, no you have the survey from my parents house and he had the plat of all the properties and he said he couldn’t not find any other stakes to show which one was correct.
President Stimmel stated, so what I’m hearing is you don’t have a valid survey.
Roger Wilson stated, and it’s just like your one of your other Board Member in the first meeting he come up and said he talked to all 4 surveyors at the same time and he was told by all 4 of them that they could not come up with the same answer.
President Stimmel stated, well right now I still think we’re, my opinion is that we don’t have a valid survey and as far as I’m concerned we ought to proceed with lending a fine unless we can come up with a valid survey. That’s just me. Charlie what do you think you heard this the last time?
Charlie Mellon stated, well I don’t know I’ve been out there a couple of times and it’s down there in the area where everything is real close anyway.
President Stimmel stated, um hum.
Charlie Mellon stated, and as far as his old house that’s been there for years and been grandfathered in and there’s an electric pole that’s 2’ from the corner of it and a guy built a new building down east of you and that’s, that new has just been built in the last year or two and it’s right up against another house really and I doubt if, I don’t know why I doubt if he ever had a permit, that new house that was built, new shed that was built down east of you, you remember that because you mentioned that the first meeting here.
Roger Wilson stated, yea, yea.
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s about all I got to say.
President Stimmel stated, all right, Jerry what I’m concerned about is what Diann’s basing the violation and it is a violation, basing the violation off of what measurements.
Director Weaver stated, I’m basing the violation on the investigation that Dave Anderson did.
President Stimmel stated, okay, Dave said he was in violation.
Director Weaver stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, okay. All right.
Roger Wilson stated, okay I’ve got one other thing to say is okay if somebody’s got a problem with my shed you say you’ve got from what the lawyer said up here you got 30 days for a complaint, my neighbors have been in there for a year and a half and I was an okay neighbor and everything was fine with them until I said something about her son tearing up the road and then after my sheds sitting here for a year and a half then she puts in a complaint that my sheds to close to the property line. And when I even talked to my neighbors I even told them where this one corrugated wall is I said now my property line is right here because of previous neighbor had 2 stakes in there and I say my property line right here I got to move this wall back 8” because it’s falling in.
President Stimmel asked, now is the neighbor…
Roger Wilson stated, and my neighbor had no problem with it.
Director Weaver stated, not that I’m aware of no.
President Stimmel stated, well she said in her letter, didn’t she say that she was going to build a shed?
Director Weaver stated, I don’t recall, I don’t recall that, but maybe.
President Stimmel stated, what the heck did she say.
Director Weaver stated, there’s a fence.
Charlie Mellon stated, yea.
President Stimmel stated, a privacy fence.
Director Weaver stated, they’ve put up a fence.
President Stimmel stated, I discovered that Roger Wison’s shed is approximately 8” from my property line, this shed should has been under construction intermittent since July 2007, ect., ect., so the question I’m having right now is that did she build the fence?
Roger Wilson stated, if that’s what you want to call it.
President Stimmel asked, did she build a fence, did she get a permit?
Director Weaver stated, she did get a permit, yes.
President Stimmel asked, did she have a, did she require a drawing for that permit?
Director Weaver stated, yes, would have to have done a site plan.
President Stimmel stated, would have a site plan.
Director Weaver stated, um hum, and I can’t tell you details on that because I don’t have that file with me.
President Stimmel stated, okay, all right but you know where I’m coming from if she’s building that and she’s saying it’s too close, should it not be her responsibility also to, for the survey for an accurate survey. It’s not all just Mr. Wilson I guess is what I’m trying to say. We’re accusing him of being, I’m just speaking out lout.
Jerry Thompson stated, yea.
President Stimmel stated, saying we’re, you know we’re…
Director Weaver stated, I understand what you’re saying sure.
President Stimmel stated, I’m not trying to make work for surveyors but I’m trying to think out loud here I mean what’s, what’s fair, I mean.
Jerry Thompson stated, I like your approach, outside looking in if I was you I think, I think the surveys going to be the cheaper route for you to go and hopefully it’ll be in your favor and if isn’t all I can sit here and say is one voting member is we’re going to, we will work hard to work with you.
Roger Wilson stated, okay well this is my thing, from the first meeting you just told me to come back the second meeting and prove that the property lines are not correct.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Roger Wilson stated, now I’ve done that.
Jerry Thompson stated, yep.
President Stimmel stated, to your satisfaction but not…
Roger Wilson stated, Dave has come up to, now this is the third time that I’m here, Dave has come up and like she, Dave can not come up with any answer.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Jerry Thompson stated, yea.
Roger Wilson stated, now how much more am I going to have to do, I’ve did everything that you requested. This is the third time, I’m still up against the $500 fine which I don’t think is righteous.
President Stimmel stated, nobody’s, nobody’s saying that you;re going to have to pay the $500 fine.
Jerry Thompson stated, no.
President Stimmel stated, here’s what we’re saying is, is that the person building the fence, okay is you know if I were you I’d being going after them if I wanted a survey and saying how much you chipping in half to be sure you know if you think I’m, I’m too damn close to the property line why don’t you chip in half and lets prove it.
Jerry Thompson stated, yep.
President Stimmel stated, okay because I think I’m not. I’m just, that, if I had a neighbor that’s the direction I’d be taking it.
Jerry Thompson stated, yep.
Director Weaver stated, I think the problem exists though that they, the neighbors don’t get a long.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Charlie Mellon stated, that’s the biggest thing.
Roger Wilson stated, no, we’ve got protective orders against each other.
Charlie Mellon stated, according to him.
President Stimmel stated, oh really, okay.
Roger Wilson stated, yes.
President Stimmel stated, all right, but I, and I’m asking out loud is it any fairer to issue a fine letter to Mr. Wilson then it is to the, did he, you know where I’m going with this, I mean I’m just trying to be fair.
Director Weaver stated, sure, sure I understand.
Jerry Thompson stated, I know, I know it.
President Stimmel stated, I don’t want to pick on him and make him pay $300 for a survey just because the neighbors ticked off at him, okay.
Director Weaver stated, well and the first time that I talked to Mr. Wilson on the phone I mean he pretty much told me that it was closer then 6’ or 5’ to the property line.
President Stimmel stated, right.
Roger Wilson stated, from what the survey showed because I said when he put in the new stakes now that one stake that was by my shed and I even told Dave when I built my shed I had 4 rows of blocks up and it was raining, I covered the blocks up with wood so no dirt would get into it because that’s going to be a storm cellar, that night we had about 3” of rain and over 5’ of the bank came in, now it’s kind of funny that like I said this is my word is 5’ of that bank come in and there was no steel stake there and then all of a sudden she gets her property surveyed and that steel stake is there.
President Stimmel asked, did she get her property surveyed?
Roger Wilson stated, yes, she did. I don’t know by who but she got her property surveyed.
President Stimmel stated, I’d sure be interested in seeing that survey.
Jerry Thompson asked, how long have you owned your property sir?
Director Weaver stated, not necessarily be recorded I mean…
Roger Wilson stated, well we built it in 90 and I bought it from my parents in 2002.
Jerry Thompson stated, oh okay, so you’ve had it 6 years.
Charlie Mellon stated, they had it before 90 though. Did they?
Roger Wilson stated, yea, there was a trailer there in uh, they got it in like 88 and then…
Jerry Thompson stated, okay that’s good enough.
Roger Wilson stated, in 90 we tore the trailer out and we built the house.
Jerry Thompson asked, are you opposed to a fresh survey for yourself?
Roger Wilson asked, me having to pay for it? No I can’t afford it.
President Stimmel asked, Jerry?
Roger Wilson stated, I’m disabled.
President Stimmel stated, I’m just, I’m just, he’s saying there’s a survey, she did a survey and if your absolutely, if you know that she did a survey Jerry’s saying we can subpoena that survey.
Jerry Thompson asked, why not?
President Stimmel stated, well yea, absolutely, I mean I don’t want to see anybody, you know spend any money if they don’t have to.
Jerry Thompson stated, no, no I know it’s expensive.
Charlie Mellon stated, she won’t give it to him though.
President Stimmel stated, yea, we can subpoena it for the Board of Zoning Appeals.
Director Weaver stated, she’d have to supply it to us.
Jerry Thompson stated, no I don’t like seeing him doing it either I just thought he might be interested in a fresh survey I.
President Stimmel stated, yea, yea I agree.
Attorney Altman stated, he should of subpoena to get it.
Roger Wilson stated, okay, you know to me that would be, that would be a thing but you know if your going to resurvey, I’m serious like Dave, Dave’s comment was to me was if your going to survey, you need to survey the whole area…
Jerry Thompson stated, yea that’s the heck of it.
President Stimmel asked, how do we know she got the survey?
Roger Wilson stated, well they had guys in a truck come out.
President Stimmel asked, do you know who it was?
Roger Wilson stated, no, I don’t. There was no, no signs on the truck.
Director Weaver asked, what did the truck look like?
Roger Wilson stated, it was a white van.
Director Weaver stated, Milligan.
President Stimmel stated, Milligan.
Director Weaver stated, I would guess.
Jerry Thompson stated, I bet so.
Director Weaver stated, I would guess.
President Stimmel stated, how do we, I mean this is kind of almost exploratory isn’t it Jerry, I mean how, how the heck do we find out if she got a current survey and...
Attorney Altman stated, I guess I’d ask Diann to check that building, that building permit file and see if it isn’t in there and if it isn’t I guess I would, Diann and I could call and talk to her and find out I mean she’s a complaining witness, it’s very relevant to this matter and it’s very discoverable.
Director Weaver stated, I might see if I can get a copy from Milligan too.
Attorney Altman stated, sure.
President Stimmel asked, you guys okay with that, I mean…
Jerry Thompson stated, I think it’s a good approach.
Charlie Mellon asked, have they got a building permit for putting the fence up yet?
Roger Wilson stated, yea she’s got it up.
Attorney Altman stated, I don’t have any trouble not subpoenaing that.
President Stimmel stated, Mr. Wilson what we’ll do I think is we’ll pursue this in some other avenues for a survey and some other things and I think what we’ll do is we’ll notify you if we need you to come up here again, if…
Roger Wilson stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, okay, so we don’t bother you anymore and I’m not saying it won’t happen, I’m not saying you won’t get fined but I’m just saying…
Roger Wilson stated, right.
President Stimmel stated, that in order to get this information give us a couple of weeks here to…
Charlie Mellon stated, yea.
President Stimmel stated, or a month or so to get our act together, don’t call us we’ll call you kind of thing okay.
Roger Wilson stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, we’ll give you a ring, Diann will.
Roger Wilson stated, okay, like I said you know I’m just you know…
President Stimmel stated, I think your fine…
Jerry Thompson stated, you’re fine.
President Stimmel stated, we’re just trying to do the right thing here.
Roger Wilson stated, and like I said I know Milligan did most of the surveys and I know they did my property survey in 90.
Jerry Thompson stated, okay.
President Stimmel stated, okay.
Roger Wilson stated, okay.
Jerry Thompson stated, he’ll have record of it.
President Stimmel stated, all right we got a plan.
Jerry Thompson stated, that’s good.
President Stimmel stated, so thanks a lot Mr. Wilson.
Jerry Thompson stated, appreciate you coming back.
President Stimmel stated, thanks a lot.
Roger Wilson stated, okay thank you.
****
President Stimmel asked, anything else anymore business?
Jerry Thompson made motion to adjourn.
Charlie Mellon seconded the motion.
The meeting adjourned.
Respectfully submitted,
David Scott, Secretary
Diann Weaver, Director
White County Area Plan Commission
Document Prepared By: __White County Area Plan, _______________________________________________
“I AFFIRM, UNDER THE PENALTIES FOR PERJURY, THAT I HAVE TAKEN REASONABLE CARE TO REDACT EACH SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER IN THIS DOCUMENT, UNLESS REQUIRED BY LAW.”
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