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 August 16, 2010

 The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:40 A. M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana.  Board members present were:  President Ronald Schmierer, Vice President Steve Burton, and Drainage Board Member John Heimlich.  Also present were Attorney George W. Loy,

Surveyor Dennis Sterrett, Drainage Assistant Mary Sterrett, and Secretary Jamie Rozzi. 

  Also in attendance were Engineer Todd Frauhiger, Mayor Jason Thompson, Peter Park with Horizon Wind Energy, Sharon Watson with White County Soil & Water, Rob Haworth, Bill Deibel, and Charlie Mellon.

The first item on the agenda was to approve the minutes from the August 2nd, 2010 meeting. Board Member Heimlich so moved.  Board Member Schmierer seconded the motion.   Motion carried unanimously.

Chairman Schmierer announced that there would be a change in the order to items on the agenda.

Bill Deibel was in attendance to ask for clarification of the drainage permit for Great Oaks Apartments.

Mr. Deibel stated, “Going back and looking…first of all, let me ask a question.  The question that I have to ask is when an easement is acquired, it is required that it be recorded to be valid?”

Attorney Loy explained, “It’s not a requirement that it be recorded to be valid.  It is a requirement that it be recorded.”

Mr. Deibel replied, “Ok.”

Attorney Loy stated, “I wish you would have asked your questions when you came in to Denny’s office so this doesn’t turn out to be a pop quiz without some advance notice of what your questions are.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “It was not intended to be a pop quiz.  I wanted it to be on the record.”

Attorney Loy stated, “That’s fine…anyway, go ahead…”

Mr. Deibel stated, “So, then, if an easement is not recorded it has no bearing on the validity of that easement.”

Attorney Loy stated, “If this is a law school question I will be happy to sit down with you and…I mean, what is your question in regards to this project?”

Mr. Deibel stated, “My point is that I would like to ask the council to reconsider the permit.  The first premise was that if there was not a recorded easement at the time they were granted a permit, that it may or may not be valid…the permit that they granted.  If it is not valid then…”

Attorney Loy stated, “That’s not the case… that’s simply not the case.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “So, my next question is, do I have the right to bring up a point or question regarding that permit since it’s already been issued?”

Attorney Loy stated, “And what is that question?”

Mr. Deibel stated, “In reviewing the engineer’s numbers, we were not told…the premise of the permit as I understood it was that Mr. Vigus’ property would not be impacted any more than it is currently…actually that it would be impacted less by the volume of water produced by this plan.  He gave us numbers that were calculated on a ten

inch pipe and a given flow rate.  After thinking about that, I ran a little experiment and came up with the idea that their proposal is to use this pond to hold water, and as they hold water the pond rises.  This ten inch pipe is placed at the bottom of this pond and if the calculations were based on just a natural amount of runoff that would go into

the pipe and run out, that’s one thing; if they were calculated with six, eight, ten feet of headwater that would be another.  My point being, if you were to take a cooler and it has two inches of water in it and you pull the plug, the water trickles out.  If the cooler is half full of water and you pull the plug, same size hole, it shoots out across the

area two, three feet, whatever.  So, my question is, if the calculations that were used for the granting of the permit did not take into consideration the head water in this pond at its full potential…would not Mr. Vigus be impacted differently than if this pipe is simply covered with an inch of water.”

Attorney Loy stated, “Todd (Frauhiger) just walked in and heard your question without the premise and I hate to ask you…I don’t know…”

Mr. Deibel stated, “I’ll be glad to ask again.  I’m going back to your calculations that you gave us on the Great Oaks project with your retaining pond and your ten inch piece of pipe discharging on Mr. Vigus’ property.  Additionally, Mr. Vigus had to take his wife to the doctor this morning that is why he is not here.  Your calculations…were

they based on any given amount of head pressure on this ten inch pipe?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That is correct.  They were based upon the elevation in the pond upstream at the ten inch pipe and that’s what caused the velocity concern that we originally had. And the head pressure as you well know, as head pressure increases on the pipe assuming that there’s inlet control, which there is an outlet to a

pond, not only do you force more water into the pond, but at high elevations you get additional discharge and that’s why maximum discharge from the pipe is always at the pond full elevation and that’s always where you would get the most velocity.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “So, not being an engineer I have a hard problem going back to my example of the cooler, of one inch and ten inches of water and looking at the drawing and the exit of this pond…you stated that there would be less water than is currently, naturally flowing…”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That’s correct.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “At no time have I ever seen, or has Dwight actually seen, a stream of water ten inches in size coming down his ravine, or down the ravine and into his property.  But, when you take this pipe and add that full head water to it, we’re going to have a stream of water that could be two, three, four feet extended from the end

of that pipe.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That’s correct.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “I do not understand how that is physically, possibly less water than he sees in any given rainfall.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Because we are talking about volumes of water and if you remember, Mr. Vigus indicated that he sees substantial amounts of water come down the ditch. What is happening now is…what’s the bottom width of the ditch?  You probably know best…”

Mr. Deibel stated, “Four or five feet probably.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “So, if you take a trapezoidal ditch that has a five foot bottom elevation on it; to get the same volume of water that you would get through a ten inch pipe with the amount of head pressure on it, that ditch might only be flowing a foot and a half to two foot deep.  So it’s more of a wider, less concentrated flow then

you were going to get through the pipe.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “But in my conversations with him, he’s never experienced a foot and half deep of water flowing down that ravine.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “And that I can’t answer, but my guess is, that if you actually did the calculations and if you were actually out there after a rain storm you would see a foot to a foot and a half of water flowing to the bottom of that ravine I would assume.  The volume of water has to go some place as you well noted a couple

weeks ago.”
Mr. Deibel stated, “Well, most of the water percolates, which we talked about previously.  Now we’re taking away that percolation so all that water becomes a driving force in this pipe.  So, that was my question…I did not know if it was calculated at full head pressure or not, but I still think, in my mind, a visual aspect of a ten inch pipe

with that amount of water…what is that height?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I apologize, I haven’t looked at this for about two weeks, but if I remember correctly it’s about four foot of…”

Mr. Deibel asked, “At maximum, before it flows over the retaining dam?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That is correct.  It’s designed so it won’t flow over the retaining dam unless we get higher than a hundred year storm or if the ten inch pipe is blocked.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “At that velocity, at that head pressure do you recall how many gallons of water exit that pipe per second?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “It was like four cubic feet per second…that’s 32 gallons a minute of water coming out of that ten inch pipe at the maximum depth of that pond—if I remember correctly.  I apologize…I don’t even have it with me.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “Do we have an approximate pressure at that point?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I can tell you the calculated outlet velocity was about seven feet per second and that’s why we needed…as far as outlet pressure…”

Mr. Deibel asked, “Well, I was trying to…is it under 40 pounds of pressure with that head or under 50 pounds of pressure or two pounds of pressure?”

Attorney Loy stated, “Excuse me, but this is why it would be nice to have some advance notice of what in the world somebody’s going to talk about at a public meeting, Bill.  We have a policy, and if you’re going to be on the agenda submit written questions in advance so that people just aren’t…engineers, lawyers, commissioners aren’t

trying to pull numbers from recollection.”

Board Member Burton stated, “In thinking about what you had here two weeks ago, there may be some merit in what you are saying there.  I like Todd’s numbers, his figures, but my concern is what you keep bringing up…is the water off your property coming down on here.  Now this project is taking care of that water and maybe we

should start looking at properties above that and their discharge water across this property….maybe some of those homeowners need to capture their water and reduce it at a lower rate and this problem wouldn’t happen.  Now maybe that figures into your property in particular…maybe we need to regulate the water coming off of that and it

would help Mr. Vigus’ property downstream.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “I agree.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “You’re right, Steve, and quite honestly a developer is not required to catch and detain upstream water.  They are allowed to pass it through their property.  No one asks developers to do regional solutions…”

Board Member Burton stated, “Well, I’m happy with this developer’s numbers and figures, you’re going back to statistics to make it work, but if we have a beef here it would be the landowners that are currently dumping water across that property.”

Mr. Deibel stated, “Well, you did answer my question and I appreciate it.  I still have this very interesting visual picture of that water rushing out of a ten inch pipe.  My apologizes to the council, I was not aware of the proper rules and regulations and should I need to come back I will attend to them properly.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Thank you.”
The next item on the item on the agenda is the drainage review for Declaration Dental.

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Where is this being built?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “First and Broadway.  This is Broadway and Firsts Streets.  The library is right here.  I got this earlier from the architect…this is the proposed parking lot with the new building.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Rob and I talked this morning, and Denny and I had a chance to meet out at the site with Doug Roberts last Tuesday or Wednesday.  The only change that we are recommending to the site is...US 24 is out here and there is a four inch overflow pipe, this is an underground storage system and the overflow pipe

currently is designed to out onto the curb line of First Street.  Doug has asked…just around the corner this water would discharge here and flow around the corner to an inlet.  Doug has asked that this pipe be taken directly to this inlet and not discharged into the curb line just so we have no problems of water freezing at the curb line during

the potential freeze/thaw during the winter.  Rob didn’t have a problem with that.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “I confirmed that with Joe Mowrer right before this meeting and he said that it was separated sewer for storm.  It is not a combined sewer.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “It’s ready to be approved then?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “It’s ready to be approved along with that one change, but I think Rob was ok with that.  The only thing we were trying to do was…Rob wanted to not have to go underneath the sidewalk and not have to cut the curb, but I think with Doug’s concern we should just go ahead and do it.”

Board Member Burton made a motion to approve the drainage plan for Declaration Dental.  Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

The next item on the agenda was a drainage review for an expansion at Rockland Wood Products in Monon. 

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “This is a new building and loading dock facility at Rockland Flooring.  The building is over in this area…the loading dock.  Basically, the water will be collected in this area through a small sump pump and into a detention area.  This detention area will be bermed from the adjoining property to make sure all the

water stays in the detention area and the discharge outlet is an existing 12 inch tile.  Again, the calculations were reviewed and Rob did a good job on them.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “That’s a wet land anyway.  They get a lot of water up there when it rains.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Yeah, this tile goes through a woods and we couldn’t find the open outlet.”

Mr. Haworth stated, “It goes straight west.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “We went to look to see if we could find the outlet, but we couldn’t.  It’s been dry…”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “There’s already a slight detention pond there.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Is it ready to be approved?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Yes.”

Board Member Heimlich made a motion to approve the drainage plan for Rockland Wood Products.  Board Member Burton seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

The next item on the agenda was to discuss the Consent to Encroach for Kerri Toosley on the J. L. Ackerman Br 1 of Br 1 of Br 6.

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Where is this at?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “It’s up there at Headlee.”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “This was the lady that was here last time.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “She brought her deed in and I went out to measure it.  This is where it’s at in Headlee.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “We told her we’d give her permission...”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “We also told her that she needed a Consent to Encroach.  This is the mobile home, this is the lot…this is the approximate location of the tile since we have an air well here and here and she’s six feet off the tile with her mobile home on one corner and ten on the other.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Do you have a problem with that?”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “We can still work on it.”

Board Member Burton stated, “And she was cooperative.”

Board Member Burton made a motion to approve the Consent to Encroach for Kerri Toosley on the J. L. Ackerman Br 1 of Br 1 of Br 6.  Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

Attorney Loy asked, “She’s not adding anything else?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “To the property?  It’s my understanding that they are going to put an air well in front of the mobile home, but no, that’s all.”

Peter Park with Horizon Wind Energy was in attendance to discuss setting a couple towers for Phase V.

Surveyor Sterrett explained, “I wasn’t sure if they needed approval from the Commissioners.  I checked the drainage and there wasn’t any on county regulated drains. Do you want to let them know what you are planning to do Peter?”

Mr. Park explained, “This is for Phase V of Meadow Lake Wind Farm.  There are five foundations that if we do get a power purchase agreement in place before the end of the year construction on a few of the foundations would likely begin this year, regardless of whether or not the construction carries over to 2011 or 2012.  Jeffery has

been the development manager for Phase V, he is on vacation this week and that’s why I’m sitting in to provide some background.  Denny and Jeffrey met and looked to see where the tiles were in the area that the five foundations would be and I think what they are down to is coming here to cover our bases.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “We don’t have any county tiles and, in fact, this was approved with Phase IV.  I had reviewed that and had also reviewed Phase V for drainage problems.  This has actually been approved for Phase IV.  This is the substation….up here and the other plan goes west from that road.”

Mr. Park stated, “So, the other complicating factor is that this was approved in Phase IV, but they were alternates that were put in as Phase IV sites.  They would be the first to get picked up in Phase V to make sure the landowners would be able to participate in the project.  It’s probably more of a semantics issue more than anything.”

Surveyor Sterrett asked, “Did we approve the road agreement for Phases IV and V?”

Attorney Loy replied, “Yes, that’s been done.”

Surveyor Sterrett asked, “You’re not moving them?”

Mr. Park stated, “That’s correct.  That is exactly why we are here, so we don’t have to look at an alternate location.”

 Attorney Loy asked, “And these are not an increased number of towers?”

Mr. Park stated, “That’s correct.  These are the three sites that were presented to you in Phase IV and two that were what was always Phase V.”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “I wouldn’t think there would be anything that we would need to do.”

Mr. Park stated, “Ok, well, we’ll continue to be in touch as the negotiations go on…that’s what we’re shooting for.”

Engineer Frauhiger asked if Surveyor Sterrett wanted to discuss the Twin Lakes Southern Baptist Church regarding their request to possibly lower the parking lot.

Chairman Schmierer asked, “The one out here by Walmart?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “Yes, did you speak with their engineer?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “No, we need to re-forward that stuff to him.  Apparently I wrote the email address down wrong.  Basically, the church by Walmart is….you can tell them the background on it.  They are asking permission from the building department to lower the parking lot 1.4 feet, which would require the detention pond bottom

be lowered, the inlets to the parking lot to be lowered…I told them my concern was the pipe from the detention pond comes in to close to the flow water elevation of Buss Ditch so I’m afraid that it would come up to such an elevation that it would actually back flood their parking lot and detention pond.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “Why do they want to lower the parking lot?  Is it running to the church?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Yeah, there was a problem with their design and the canopy for the drive-thru in front of the church does not have proper clearance.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “It’s not high enough.”

Charlie Mellon stated, “They need to raise it then.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Exactly, Charlie, that’s exactly what I told them…to raise it rather than to lower everything else and that still may be what happens because I’m not sure if they’re going to be able to lower it or not.  They only had 7 feet, 2 inches where they drive through.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “I think they were worried about an ambulance…”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Like you said, if they lower it, what are they going to do with the water?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Yeah, that’s exactly what our concern is.  We contacted their engineer and we’re supposed to transmit some information to see if it’s possible.  He did a quick look at it and said it would work, but I’m skeptical and that…it sounds like it was a lot of volunteer work.  So we’re still working with them…”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “Here is the canopy here and they were supposed to be able to drive through here and there’s some problems with the foundations of the pillars that are here too.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “And that by cutting down 1.4 feet they didn’t have proper cover on their foundations, so I think they are trying to get someone to agree to the concept of leaving dirt mounded up around the columns, which I’m not quire sure how you would do…I said I wasn’t trying to be funny, but it would be a moot point you

wouldn’t be able to drive underneath the canopy because the parking lot would probably be flooded.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Ok, with it I guess.”

Chairman Schmierer asked if there was anything further for the Drainage Board.  Chairman Schmierer then adjourned the meeting.