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 November 1st, 2010

 The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:30 A. M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana.  Board members present were:  President Ronald Schmierer, Vice President Steve Burton, and Drainage Board Member John Heimlich.  Also present were Attorney George W. Loy,

Surveyor Dennis Sterrett, Drainage Assistant Mary Sterrett and Secretary Jamie Rozzi. 

  Also in attendance was Sharon Watson with White County Soil & Water, Engineer Ken Smith representing the Town of Chalmers and Brad Ward.

The first item on the agenda was to approve the minutes from the October 18th, 2010 meeting. Board Member Heimlich so moved.  Board Member Burton seconded the motion.   Motion carried unanimously.

The second item on the agenda was the J. D. Roudebush Maintenance Modification Hearing. 

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “We plan to clean the Roudebush and we’d like to do it on maintenance.  Right now in the maintenance fund there is $3,243.00 and my estimate for cleaning it was $13,550.00 so we decided to raise the rates to $3.00 per acre for three years and then drop it back to $1.50.  It should still work out.  We sent notices

to everyone on the Roudebush.”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “How many are there?  Approximately?”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “There are about twenty landowners.  It runs along 1000 W and empties into the Mellon Ditch which we are also getting cleaned…and then it enters the Big Pine.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “You haven’t heard anything…any remonstrances?”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “No, we haven’t heard anything.  I think there were quite a few that signed the petition.”

The White County Drainage Board having heard and considered all the evidence and any objections submitted in these proceedings, the Chairman would now consider a motion finding that the current estimate of maintaining the J. D. Roudebush is insufficient and the annual assessments for periodic maintenance of said drain should

increase as proposed in these proceedings ($3.00 flat rate per acre for three years, then drop to $1.50 per acre).  Board Member Burton so moved.  Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion.  Vote taken.  The White County Drainage Board by a vote of 3 in favor and 0 opposed now hereby adopts the schedule of assessments

originally filed herein.  The White County Drainage Board issues its written findings and order declaring the proposed maintenance modification schedule in these proceedings established, a copy of which will be mailed to all owners affected.

The next item on the agenda was a drainage review for Town of Chalmers – west side storm water project. 

Surveyor Sterrett explained, “We’ve had Todd (Frauhiger) review this.  We had a set of plans…this is the west side of Chalmers.  They plan to run a sewer…run it around the maintenance facility for Horizon and this is the route down to the J. P. Carr. You have your own easement, right?”

Mr. Ken Smith replied, “Yes, we have an additional 30 foot easement from all of the property owners there, already signed and secured.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “And we’ve had Todd review it…”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I think Denny gave a pretty good overview of the project.  Just a couple things to note, we had a chance to go out to the site last Thursday and we talked to Ken a couple times on the phone while we were going through it.  The drainage calculations were in order.  The thing that Ken has done, which I don’t

have a problem with, is that instead of the using the rainfall distribution out of the ordinance he used a more recent one from NOAA.”

Mr. Ken Smith stated, “The most recent data…there is a point just south…”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “It is less conservative than what we currently have in the ordinance.  I went ahead and used over the weekend, the ordinance rainfall calculations, and it shows a little bit more water trying to get through the storm sewers than the calculations show here, but really it won’t make a big difference.  There are three

drainage areas and water ponds substantially in those three drainage areas.  So, it’s going to by a nice relief and it will give the water a way to get out of town which is currently doesn’t have.  They are changing watersheds.  I did a quick calculation of the capacity of the J. P. Carr and the calculated capacity of the 30 inch going into it

and my calculated capacity…there shouldn’t be an impact on the J. P. Carr.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “Is this going to be owned by the Town of Chalmers?  Or is it?”

Mr. Ken Smith explained, “Chalmers received a million dollars from OCRA. They will put it in and maintain it, it will be their drain.  It’s not something they are asking the county to accept or build.  It’ll change where the water currently goes as well.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Everything now goes north…when it goes any place.”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “Yeah.”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “I didn’t know if anyone else was going to be allowed to hook on to it.”

Mr. Ken Smith explained, “We have agreements to provide tap on with property owners.  I think a lot of the property south of Chalmers has been annexed and now we’re going to provide some drainage for them.  That’s a pretty big area…a lot of the pipe is double wall perforated.  So, not only will they be allowed to tap on, it will allow

water to infiltrate it.”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “We have the plans here if you want to look at them.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “One other thing...I think the plans indicated that the most of the way through was going to be solid castings.  Actually, they are going to be open grates to allow additional water into the system.  As we mentioned, they are double wall perforated…I think it’s going to be better …it should provide a lot of


Board Member Burton made a motion to approve the drainage plan for Town of Chalmers – West Side Storm Water Project.  Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion.   Motion carried unanimously. 

The next item on the agenda is a request from an exemption from the White County Drainage Ordinance for Pool Subdivision, a 3 lot subdivision in Honey Creek Township.

Surveyor Sterrett explained, “That is on 300 East, 475 North.  The subdivision is in this woods.  There is a house here that is already cut out.  There is a house trailer up north there.  I really don’t see any problems with it, drainage wise.

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “It’s got to go through area plan and I don’t know when…”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “Where does the drainage go?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “It’s in a woods, I didn’t really get out and look around in the woods.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “With that big of lots…I don’t see how it could change the drainage up in that area anyway.”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “They are just talking about single family homes on each tract.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “Right, if they want to do something else then they will have to come back.” 

Board Member Heimlich asked, “If there is more than one house on a lot, they’ll have to come back?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “Yeah, if they subdivide it any further.”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “Well, under those circumstances then yes I would allow an exemption from the ordinance.”

Board Member Heimlich made a motion to grant the exception from the White County Drainage Ordinance for Pool Subdivision.  Board Member Burton seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

The next item on the agenda is to approve the revised drainage plan for Twin Lakes Southern Baptist Church. 

Surveyor Sterrett explained, “Since they changed both parking lots I requested that Todd review it again.”

Engineer Frauhiger explained, “I think we talked about this parking lot before and they are talking about lowering the parking lot and all of top of casting by about one and a half feet.  Consequently, this pipe going to the point is lowered to 672 if I remember correctly.  My concern, and we have expressed it repeatedly to the church, is that

at that elevation the water elevation in the ditch and the water level in the pond could conceivably back up and flood the parking lot.  They understand that, they said no one would be held accountable.  I think we should go on record that there is a potential that the parking lot will flood at the lower elevations.  They have now said that they

are going to put a flap gate on this pipe right here which would conceivably stop the water from backing up as long as it doesn’t get blocked open by a 2x4 or a tree limb or something like that.  So, that could conceivably help the situation.  The next revision was the south parking lot.  It had been graded originally and designed with no

storm sewer.  It was going to sheet flow into the pond.  There were a couple problems with that, to get the proper sheet flow there were going to have to cut out part of the bank of the pond and they were going to lose a little bit of capacity in the pond.   They contacted Denny and I and asked us to go out and meet with their new contractor

and look at potentially re-grading that parking lot…same situation.  I told them with this particular plan there could still be a possibility of water backing up through this pipe and coming out of the storm inlets.  Less of a chance than…this parking lot here, there is still a chance here.  He indicated they were going to do the same thing, put a flap

gate on this pipe, and I think it’s important to note in the minutes that the church has been informed about the concern that both of those parking lots could conceivably have water in them.”

Board Member Burton asked, “Is your first parking lot…you’re concerned that it’s going to backflow.  Is that a ten year flood or a six month flood?”

Engineer Frauhiger replied, “I think the calculations…I know at the 100 year storm it’s going to back flow.  If I remember correctly, some place between the 10 and 20 year storm you could conceivably have the entire system full.  I’m not sure if it would be coming out of the castings at that point.  The one point the church made to us is that

the building is not used most of the time.  I do agree with the calculations.  I was showing that it should drain out in about four to five hours and be back down below ground elevations.  They don’t show it on this plan, but if you remember in the original plan, the pond was going to be reshaped here and they mention that they have 6,200

cubic feet of storage volume in that pond.”

Surveyor Sterrett asked, “How did they get that?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “They are going to have to still reshape it, they just don’t show it on this revised plan, but that’s what the old plans had and they showed the correct contours on there, so I’m assuming that’s something they plan to do here.  They just didn’t show it on this plan.  The rim is 678…and the rim here is 677 so it’s

about a foot lower, that’s why I’m less concerned about the water coming out of the south parking lot.  At 677 top of casting...and the top of the pond is 680…and it was designed so 100 year storm it was about a foot of freeboard.  So, it would get up to about 679 which would definitely put water into this parking lot and have water coming

out of this…”

Attorney Loy stated, “Not only should that qualification that you gave make it into the minutes, but I think we should send them a letter too, with White County Drainage Board letterhead, confirming that…to at least have in our file so years down the road if there a problem, we told you so.”

Board Member Burton asked, “Is this a slippery slope, or has this been done in the past?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “There are developments, and I’m sure you have seen a few, that use parking lots as temporary detention storage.”

Attorney Loy stated, “Which is what this really is.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That is what this is.  I know fast food restaurants do it occasionally.  It wouldn’t have been an issue if they hadn’t missed the elevation of the overhang.”

Board Member Burton asked, “Raising the overhand wouldn’t have been easier?”

Engineer Frauhiger replied, “Well, myself and the contractor both thought it would have been less expensive because they say on this plan…I don’t think Dave (Anderson) is going to accept it, they are going to mound three feet of dirt at the footings to get proper cover.  The contractor was suggesting that they dig down and find the existing

footings, drill re-bar into them and pour another chunk of concrete down to the correct elevation, which is what I think they will end up doing.  We thought by the time they worried about flooding their parking lot and redid the footers that it wouldn’t have been that much difference to raise it.  He was going to give the church some options.”

Attorney Loy asked, “You said there is a new contractor on the job?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “Well, I’ve heard that Overbeck is back on it?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “We didn’t meet with Overbeck, we met with Extreme Contractors and they are the ones that came up with this idea.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “I just saw Overbeck last week and he told me he got the contract to do it and I told him I didn’t think they changed their drainage plan.  Overbeck asked me if they had a new drainage plan and I said not that I knew of.”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “This is it.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “We didn’t get it until Friday.  We told them that we needed a new review fee, which they agreed to.  I spent four hours that day, time over the week, and I spent time today.  He said they would bring a check in.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “They’ve actually already got a drainage permit for their other plan, for the first plan.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “For the one earlier, I think was a major enough revision to require another permit.”

Attorney Loy asked, “What’s prompting all of the revisions?”

Engineer Frauhiger replied, “This canopy…they missed on the plans that there wasn’t sufficient clearance to get an ambulance or large handicapped van underneath the canopy.  So, consequently it caused this parking lot to be lowered and then the revisions to the other parking lot…

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “The site has already been sub-graded to this elevation I think.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I’m still confused because there are still grade stakes out there and I couldn’t tell you…”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Well, if you look at it from the street it doesn’t look like they’ve done much of anything to it, does it?”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “The surveyor this morning said that the grade stakes were wrong.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I think they still reflect the old…so, I don’t think they changed them now to raise everything up…or lower everything…”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “So we are approving this contingent on them paying the bill and we’re also going to put a letter with it stating the possibility of flooding parking lots.”

Attorney Loy stated, “Make it strong.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Make it strong that they are going to have flooded parking lots.”

Board Member Heimlich made a motion to approve the revised drainage plan for Twin Lakes Southern Baptist Church contingent upon the church paying the drainage approval fee and also contingent upon a letter being written to the church stating the possibility of flooded parking lots.  Board Member Burton seconded the motion.  Motion

carried unanimously.

The next item on the agenda is to discuss the John Unroe Drain. 

Surveyor Sterrett explained, “They started putting the Unroe tile in down Scott Street.  They started at Burke and they dug down…they put a new manhole there and I think there is an outlet that goes east.  There is probably a foot of water in that outlet.  The new tile that they are putting in started flowing backwards.  So, we think there is

something wrong downstream from where we starting putting the tile in.”

Board Member Burton asked, “Where are you at?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “East side of 24, south side of the tracks.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Have we put new tile in east of 24?  I didn’t think we had…”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “We put new tile in Scott Street all the way to Burke Street.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “That’s what you are doing now, but you haven’t done that before.  What we did several years ago…”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Correct…that was over on the west side.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “We filmed that before, how far down did we go?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “There is not other access to the tile…until you get past the wastewater treatment plant and I don’t even think that was there when it was filmed.  We got about 300 feet east of the manhole that we were talking about, which is roughly where the water tower is sitting.  What the contractor indicated was that

Milestone pumped out of their new manhole when the water started coming back, and they pumped into the ditch.  We couldn’t find the hole, but he claimed the water flowed down the ditch maybe 200 feet and then went back underground into the tile, which seemed to indicate to him….he wasn’t sure if the water through the ditch, go back

through the tile and come back on them because they kept having continuous flow coming back…or if that was past the blockage.  There was no blockage for the first 300 feet downstream to that manhole, but apparently there’s something that is impeding the flow.  Denny, you mentioned that there was a piece of the 24 inch tile that has

broken out someplace…”

Surveyor Sterrett explained, “On downstream, east of the treatment plant, out in the cultivated field there was a hole.  Actually, its 30 inch down there and only about a foot deep.  Two years ago we got down and looked into that tile with a flashlight and there was a big section of the top that had broken out and got caught downstream and

it was obstructing the flow there.  So, I had the contractor put in an air well at that spot and he had his help crawl in there and get that hunk out.  So maybe that’s what happened here…I don’t know because the tile broke down on the west side of US 24 twice.  I’m sure we lost rocks, chunks, and everything down the tile.  I don’t know

why there’s water there.”

Board Member Burton asked, “What’s the next choice of action?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “Well, the fund…we spent $42,000 up front on that and I think it’s in debt but I think it’s going to be out next year.  It’s either run a jet down and see if we get anything…or a camera again.  Once they get some grade on the tile they are putting in they won’t notice that, probably.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “They shouldn’t.”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “The other tile will fill up.  There’s about a foot of water in the tile, and maybe there was always a foot of water.  I don’t know.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “If you remember this section on Burke Street had a number of bellies in the existing tile and the camera would go completely under and slowly come back up and go under water again.  There have always been some water problems in this section of tile.  The other interesting thing…coming from the west in

the existing tile, they went back upstream and blocked off the existing tile, so they’ve got all the flow from the west blocked off and they’re pumping down there to the open ditch, which is what they are supposed to do.  They said that in about 4 hours time, that 24 inch tile coming from the west…even though there is no upstream flow

coming in filled back up with water and when they get there to break out the next section of 24 inch tile they flood their working area.  Then they said the tile will drain and basically just trickle water until they block that section of tile off. So, some place between 24 and where they are currently working there is water coming into the

existing tile and we’re not sure what’s flowing…they’ll find it when they get there.  When they finally break that section of tile they’ll find the connection…but there is an issue there that wasn’t anticipated.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “I wouldn’t think with as dry as it is that there would be anything running…”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “But, when we were looking at the manhole at the treatment plant where their effluent goes into our tile…it was pumping water into our tile the day we were there.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “There was quite a bit of water.”

Board Member Burton asked, “But you’re saying that it is disconnected from the east side to the west side?”

Engineer Frauhiger replied, “Correct, but they are picking up water from the west even though it’s blocked off.  We shouldn’t be picking up any water.”

Board member Burton stated, “So, from what I heard it might be better to just wait until they are completed to see what happens.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “It might be, but if they are correct…we have…the one interesting thing is when the cost estimate was made it came in a little under half at $42,000 and the engineering fees were right where we expected.  There might be a little money in the original assessment.  I think we were originally going to put it in debt

for a couple years…”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “So, I think we just about need to take wait and see.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “A wait and see…but I think eventually once everything gets put in they are probably going to end up going to this manhole structure and see if we can figure out what’s going on.  The good thing now is that we have the other entry point down where the affluent comes down…I don’t think we had that before. 

So, we should be able to get both directions.”

Chairman Schmierer asked if there was anything further for the Drainage Board.  Chairman Schmierer then adjourned the meeting.