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December 6th, 2010

The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:30 A. M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana.  Board members present were:  President Ronald Schmierer, Vice President Steve Burton, and Drainage Board Member John Heimlich.  Also present were Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Dennis Sterrett, and Drainage Assistant Mary Sterrett.  Secretary Jamie Rozzi was absent.

Also in attendance were:
Engineer Todd Frauhiger
Sharon Watson -White County Soil & Water
Surveyor Elect - Brad Ward
James Reisert – Strand Associates
Katherine MacMannis – Strand Associates
Tony Cain – T&M Cain Enterprises
Mike Dwenger – Dwenger Excavating
Mike Ezra – County Line Tiling/Excavating
Robert Thomas – Town of Wolcott
Mike Yelton – Town of Wolcott Town Board
Joe Bilyeu – Town of Reynolds
Fred Buschman – Town of Reynolds
Bill Deibel

The first item on the agenda was to approve the minutes from the November 15th, 2010 meeting. Board Member Burton so moved.  Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion.   Motion carried unanimously.

The next item on the agenda is to open quotes for the A. K. Sills Maintenance Project.

Gutwein Bulldozing & Excavating        $2,733.00
County Line Tiling/Excavating            $3,500.00
Howe Excavating                             $3,499.00

Board Member Burton made a motion to approve the low bid of $2,733.00 from Gutwein Bulldozing & Excavating for the A. K. Sills Maintenance Project.  Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

The next item on the agenda is to open quotes for the Branch #1 of Branch #4 of the J. M. Timmons Maintenance Project.

County Line Tiling/Excavating           $3,185.00
Howe Excavating                            $5,460.00

Board Member Heimlich made a motion to approve the low bid of $3,185.00 from County Line Tiling/Excavating for the Branch #1 of Branch #4 of the J. M. Timmons Maintenance Project.  Board Member Burton seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

The next item on the agenda is to open quotes for the Patrick Mellon Maintenance Project.

Howe Excavating                           $5,000.00
Elwyn Mattocks & Son                     $4,350.00
Gutwein Bulldozing & Excavating      $3,300.00
County Line Tiling/Excavating          $4,500.00
Dwenger Excavating                       $6,083.00
T&M Cain Enterprises                     $3,830.10

Board Member Burton asked to hold off on making a motion to approve this bid until quotes were opened for the J. D. Roudebush and the E. P. Smith Drains.

The next item on the agenda it to open quotes for the J. D. Roudebush Maintenance Project.

Howe Excavating                          $9,950.00
Elwyn Mattocks & Son                    $12,100.00
Gutwein Bulldozing & Excavating     $7,000.00
County Line Tiling/Excavating         $13,000.00
Dwenger Excavating                      $19,707.70
T&M Cain Enterprises                    $13,548.50

Board Member Burton asked to hold off on making a motion to approve this bid until quotes were opened for the E. P. Smith Drain.

The next item on the agenda is to open quotes for the E. P. Smith Maintenance Project.

Howe Excavating                         $5,900.00
Elwyn Mattocks & Son                   $5,870.00
Gutwein Bulldozing & Excavating    $4,500.00
County Line Tiling/Excavating        $6,000.00
Dwenger Excavating                     $8,400.00
T&M Cain Enterprises                   $6,000.00

Board Member Heimlich made a motion to approve the low bids from Gutwein Bulldozing/Excavating for the Patrick Mellon, J. D. Roudebush, and E. P. Smith Maintenance Project.  Board Member Burton seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

The next item on the agenda is Town of Reynolds Storm Water Project Drainage Review. 

Engineer Frauhiger explained, “What we have is a storm sewer replacement project for the town that will drain into the Kleyla ditch.  The existing pipe is an 18 inch at the outlet and the proposed pipe is a 24 inch at the outlet.  I stopped on the way up this morning and took a quick look.  I did some ditch capacity calculations and the downstream ditch should have no problem taking the extra size pipe.  I reviewed the calculations that were submitted for the pipe that was designed.  I didn’t have any problems with those.  I really didn’t see any problems with this one.  There will be a concrete headwall and an end section put on the pipe.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “What section of town is that draining?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “Its north of US 24 along Logan Street.  It goes across the railroad almost to Main Street.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “It will actually enter the ditch right adjacent to the existing pipe, which will be removed and the existing pipe found under Logan is pretty much in the same alignment.”

Board Member Burton made a motion to approve the drainage plan for the Town of Reynolds Storm Water Project.  Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion.  Motion approved unanimously.

The next item on the agenda is Great Oak Apartments Drainage Review for revised plans.

Engineer Frauhiger explained, “For this particular project we have a partial submittal, which is probably 80 percent there.  I tried to get a hold Wyatt this morning, he got all the drainage calculations submitted for his redesign but he doesn’t have the outlet designed yet.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “So, we’re not going to approve it today?”

Engineer Frauhiger replied, “Correct.  We’ll have to wait until the outlets are submitted.  In general, though, I can tell you what’s going on.  The existing ravine that was originally going to be used for storm water storage has been classified by IDEM as Waters of the State.  It’s not only my understanding that it has been classified as Waters of the State, but was possibly classified as High Quality Vegetative Wetlands before the developer went in and cleared it.  So, it’s my understanding that there might be some wetlands mitigation in the future because the existing clearing they have done on the ravine.  Because it is Waters of the State they will not be able to detain any water inside the ravine itself, which means they are going to have to move everything upstream of the ravine.  They obviously have no room on site so they are going underground with everything.  They had two options for underground and something like buried pipes or….what they chose to do was, the best way to describe it is kind of like the leech fingers of a septic system.  There are a couple of disadvantages with that—they have to design bigger because when they backfill the trench with stone and they put a six inch pipe at the bottom of the stone to drain it, they can only get credit for 40 percent of the actual volume.  60 percent is assumed to be filled with stone and 40 percent is actually voids in the stone where water can actually store.  So, what they are doing is putting three underground detention areas in.  The first underground detention area and it will have Building A and Building B downspouts into it.  It is a small area.  They have an allowable discharge at the two year storm of 0.27cfs and the ten year developed flow peaks out at about 1.1 so they are going to be reducing from about 1.1 to 0.27.  At the 100 year storm they are allowed to discharge at the ten year rate and they peak out at an in-flow of about 1.5 cfs and they are allowed to discharge at .41 cfs.  They have a required storage volume for each one of those.  They have oversized the underground trench so it is 60 percent larger than they need.  That 60 percent is going to be filled with stone and then they have voids in the stone.  The one downside to this particular design technique, and I talked it over with Wyatt, if you build it and then put your inlets into it and you have any surface inlets into it…and you don’t protect it during construction you will get sedimentation that will go through those inlets and fill all the voids in the stone.  Then you don’t have the storage for the water in the future.  Storage area #1 doesn’t have any direct inlets into it, so it shouldn’t be a problem.”

Engineer Frauhiger continued, “However, area #2 takes the parking lots and it’s a bigger detention area, but they went through the same calculations.  Storage area #2 they have an allowable out flow rate that covers about two and half acres of land coming into it and of those 2.5 acres, about 1.3 acres is going to be hard surface and 1.3 is going to be grass so it’s about half and half.  So, their allowable discharge at the ten year storm is 2.29, their in-flow rate coming from their area is about 50/50, peaks out at about 9 so they are going to be knocking 7 cfs off the ten year storm.  On the 100 year storm, again roughly about 14 cfs and they are knocking it down to about 3.41.  They did their volume calculations the exact same way; they oversized this area 60 percent and are going to fill it with stone.  They got it counted for about 40 percent of the area for storage.”

He continued, “The same thing with storage area #3.  It has a total area of .7 acres and at the ten year storm, the outflow is .61 cfs.  At the 100 year storm the outflow is .9 cfs.  They’ll be knocking down the flow by approximately a half to two-thirds of the ten year storm and they’ll knocking it down by about half of the 100 year storm also.  They meet their storage calculations.  I agree with the concept, but at this particular point they have not designed the outlets for each one of these storage areas and since they haven’t designed the outlets I’m not totally sure…I think these dashed lines represent where they will go, but each outlet will have a small tile in it, probably a six or eight inch that will directly outlet into the ravine.  I do know what they are allowed to discharge I just don’t know how they are going to do it yet.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Well, it can’t be approved today anyway.  If they get it, put it on the agenda if they have it for next time.  I guess that is all we can do.”

The next item on the agenda is the Town of Wolcott Storm Water Project Drainage Review. 

Mr. Reisert explained, “I am James Reisert with Strand Associates.  The Town of Wolcott, last July, was awarded an Office of Community and Rural Affairs grant to do some storm water work in town and that work roughly entails replacing existing storm sewer on the northwest part of town and a some portion kind of on the east side of downtown.  What we have here is the northwest side of town at Fourth Street and Lee Street, just south of US 24 and we’re replacing most of the storm sewer in this area of town.  Right now we are proposing an outfall right up here, which is just north of the town park’s driveway.  We are planning to put new storm sewer in and outfall into a concrete ditch.  We’re actually showing that we need to flatten the ditch along the park area and we are flattening it enough that we are actually proposing a concrete ditch through there and it’s going to run along side the ditch until it can get to the US 24 area.  Most of this as we go through this area ends up being an arched structure, 36¼ arched structure that is serving as the outfall due to the amount of flow that is going through there.  We needed to go to a little bit of a more unique pipe and then most of the other pipe being proposed through is between 15 and 18 inch storm sewer.  Mostly replacing a lot existing sewer….most of it is collapsed or undersized and not really serviceable at this time.  The town maintains it and tries to jet everything, but there are a lot of areas that they can’t actually jet through anymore and it’s not draining properly.  The Town of Wolcott does flood frequently and this is one of the projects they are trying to do to relieve some of that flooding.  Most of the work will be along Fourth Street, we are going to have our trunk line along Fourth Street and we’re going to have some secondary lines on Lee Street, Winter Street, and also on North Street.  As you can see the profile there it is pretty much a minimum grade and minimum cover.  There are a few areas where we have actually less than the required cover for ordinance, but we are trying to go as deep as we can—we get down to about a foot and half to a foot in some areas.  For the most part we’re trying to keep it at the two feet of cover.  Mainly structures at about every intersection and lots of new inlets in low-lying areas where we can pick up some of the drainage and get it out of town.  That was basically the northwest side of town.”

Mr. Reisert continued, “We’re at North Street, which is where we are starting the east side of town, at Burke Street east of US 24.  There is a large drainage structure there because it is a low lying area intersection so we replacing all of that because it doesn’t work very well and we’ll be going down Burke Street and making our way down Market Street.  On Johnson and Burke there is an existing 15 inch drainage tile that runs east down underneath the pond through town and empties into the John Unroe drain tile and into the Hoagland.  Mostly, 15 and 18 inch pipe.  We do start out with 12 inch on the north side.  Along Market Street we’re actually tying into the existing tile, over on that side of the town that tile actually comes from Johnson Street and makes its way across, we’re tying in at the east end of Market Street.  As it is right now we are showing an 18 inch tile through the casting, going into a 15 inch drain tile.  That drain tile does increase in size south of the railroad.  Anything else?

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I think that is a pretty good overview.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Where is it draining outlet at?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “We are about to get into that.”

Board Member Burton stated, “Just to get an idea, each one of these are going to drain a different direction.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That is correct.”

Mr. Reisert explained, “The northwest side of town is going…there are two places now where it outlets.  We are tying into an existing drain tile that goes underneath the town park and north up into the Stoller Ditch.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “The Stoller is overloaded now, isn’t it?”

Engineer Frauhiger explained, “The proposed tile is discharging right here…it is approximately 2 foot by 3 foot.  This is the town park and the paved side ditch that James is talking about actually proceeds around a portion of the park and the stops and goes into a grass swale.  This swale flows up along US 24, eventually crosses under US 24 and 900 W where the Industrial Park is developed and I think Denny has some pictures of some of the flooding there.  In addition to the pipe discharging here with approximately 11.5 cfs there is a ditch that comes in here that is going to be enclosed and this section here with a 12 inch pipe and there is an additional pipe that comes in here.  These will both dump into the paved side ditch.  I don’t know for sure what the capacity of the two tiles are; but I can tell you at ten year storm it is about 11.5 cfs.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Are these existing tiles that are already there?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Well, this is an open ditch…this is, no it’s not existing tile it will be new tile.  There is existing storm sewer in the area, we’re not sure where it drains.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “I appears that most of it goes through the huge tile that goes underneath the park, but we don’t actually know.  The 15 inch tile is the existing tile that goes underneath the park.”

Board Member Burton stated, “And that is a county tile.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “That is the Pugh tile.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “We’ve worked on that before in the parking lot…”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “And this tile goes up…if I remember correctly, it runs along 900 W underneath the side ditch and outlets into the open ditch.  I think I saw a picture of the headwall.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “So there is no retention with any of this water?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That is correct.  The tricky thing is that they aren’t adding any water because they aren’t adding any impervious surface.  What they are doing is since they have a dilapidated storm sewer, when they get a big rain they get flooding that occurs throughout the town.  What this system is going to do is move the water at a quicker pace to this point right here.  It’s going to flow the best it can in this side ditch until it hits the grass swale right there.  The end value of concrete is much greater than the end value of grass so what’s going to happen at this point you’re going to have a mess.  It’s basically going to exit here and start flooding the park.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “That is one of the problems you are trying to get away from, right?”

Mr. Reisert stated, “The town would like to eliminate flooding in the town park also, but they are very concerned with the flooding within town that is affecting all of the residents and businesses.  Any rain event now is really causing problems in town and that’s really more economically devastating than flooding at the town park.  The town is looking at that being a better spot to put it rather than keeping it in town.  They are looking at that they can replace their existing system to make it work.  They aren’t really changing anything; they are just making it work now.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “What’s going to happen is that where the 15 inch county tile crosses the new paved side ditch, there’s going to be an inlet dropped into the tile, but the inlet is going to be raised a little bit because if we didn’t we’d have back pressure from the tile squirting up in the air and putting additional water in the paved side ditch.  I think we have it raised enough so at the ten year hydraulic grade line will keep the water underground, but water will have to get deeper in the park and the side ditch before it’s going to be able to access that inlet.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “We are trying to tie into both the ditch and existing tile to help with any possible drainage to get the water out of town.  We’re not directing into the tile because we know it’s over capacity.  So we’re hoping that helps a little bit.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “James, Katie, and Denny all came down to my office and we looked at the potential of designs outside of the ordinance norms, designing the system for a smaller return…which would keep some of the water upstream and wouldn’t let it get away as fast so you would still have the flooding upstream.  For a number of reasons the town wanted to stay with the ten year design.  The second thing we looked at was the potential of putting an acre of storage in this corner of the park and I think when the town looked at that the town doesn’t actually own that property so it would be hard to put detention there.  It is also my understanding that many of the trees are memorial trees that have been dedicated.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “The two year storm also had a flow of about 7.8 cfs versus the 1.5 for a ten year event.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “How much are you putting into the Stoller going out that way?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Well, to be honest with you, not much because if we considered that tile as already overburdened…”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “That is the Pugh tile, right, going to the Stoller?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “At this point right here we will be 11.5 cfs which is considerable flow.  The problem is that the water goes overland, through the side ditch on 900 W, and that ditch only has a 4 cfs capacity.  We’re attempting to put in 11 here, something here and something here…so let’s say 16 or 17 cfs when the ditch capacity is 4.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “I guess what I’m getting at is that we’ve got so much flooding down there with the industrial area down there right now, how much is that going to add to the flooding with the industries? The water was clear up there at Witko the last time.  Are we going to put it in Witko every time we have a storm?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That was our concern, we talked at length about that and that is my concern also, Ron.  The only potential thing that will help is that we are not changing the size of the structure underneath US 24.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “So that will keep some of the water out of there.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “It will keep some of the water back up into the park, but I can’t tell you for sure what the casting of the structure…”

Mr. Reisert stated, “I three foot box, I believe.”

Board Member Burton stated, “The interesting thing that you just mentioned that I haven’t…the night I was at that meeting…you are not increasing the amount of water you are trying to move it’s just some of it percolated because it didn’t have the opportunity to move.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Basically what you are doing is providing a conduit system to get the water from where the town doesn’t want it to down stream.  The problem is that we really don’t have capacity to handle it downstream.  So, what’s going to happen, and I’m glad that the town is here—what’s going to happen in my opinion is that you are going to see much more frequent flooding of the park and you could see some potentially adverse impact with businesses along 900 W.  I think that’s important to note.  I can’t guarantee that will happen for sure.  It’s just a tough situation.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “The town understands that this is a concern and they are willing to work with the county in any way possible to help alleviate the problem as far as trying to get a new outfall, helping applying for grants or whatever the case may be to be able to get new outfall.  They really don’t want to spend all this money on a system isn’t going to perform.  They were very concerned about going down to the two year event, because then they get beyond a year and they are back to flooding issues with the residents.  So, they are really leaning on designing the system like we should so we can drain the town properly and also look at ways at improving the outfall situation to where all of that new storm sewer that they put in town can drain out of town also.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Even if they add an outlet down at the Stoller it’s just about got all it can handle.  At the ten year storm it comes out anyhow, doesn’t it?”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “On the Stoller?  I don’t think it comes out there, it comes out down by the Hoagland.  The Hoagland causes it to…”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “The other thing I thought was interesting to add was that when the park flood in 2008 it was underwater for how many days?   It was a number of days.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “You’re going to flood the park more, aren’t you?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “What’s going to happen is…what I’m getting at is that I think that the three by three box underneath US 24 must be at a higher elevation than the park is.  So, the park has to flood up to a certain elevation before you get flow through that box and likely what happens is the reason is was flooded for so long is that it was trying to get away through that 15 inch tile and that 15 inch tile took several days to draw it down.  So, I’m just guessing though, I have no idea if that is correct or not…”

Mr. Reisert stated, “The open ditch that is there does flow towards the culvert…so the ditch itself is higher than the culvert.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “The open ditch along US 24 between the paved ditch and the three by three box is going to be a limiting factor.  What’s going to happen is that the water is going to come out of the ditch and it will hit that grass swale and it will….So basically what will happen is some place…the paved side ditch will come down around the corner and end some place here.  There is the pipe that carries the driveways and the ditch along US 24 and just outside of that picture is where the additional flow comes in.”

Board Member Burton asked, “Is there going to be a problem with the cement side ditch with the State Highway?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “No, but the one problem with the paved side ditch…I understand what they are trying to do…”

Board Member Burton asked, “What is INDOT’s take on this?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I haven’t talked to INDOT.  I know in general they don’t mind paved side ditches…I’ve seen them before along state highways, but the problem with paved side ditches is you get cracking in the concrete and in low flow conditions I’ve even seen where the water has flowed down into the crack and goes underneath the paved side ditch. After a number of years you get broken up paved side ditches which is the rebar trying to keep the concrete together.  One thing that INDOT has been going to and actually it’s a cheaper solution is half pipe.  You don’t have the undermining problems, you don’t have the cracking problems, and you can use plastic pipe.  It’s actually cheaper, too, but you’re going to have the same problem.  You’re going to have the same in flow value with plastic as you are going to have with concrete and it’s going to move more water than the grass.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “We have not currently coordinated with INDOT.  We were going to apply for an INDOT permit, a right-of-way permit as soon as we know which direction we’re going, but we have not actually coordinated with them.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That ditch that you just showed…that ditch doesn’t have the capacity to take all that water.  You’ve got that ditch and a 15 inch tile underneath that and it doesn’t have enough capacity.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “The other issue the town is up against is that they would like to put an outfall in, but the grant is only for a certain amount of money and the grant also restricts the areas they can work in.  If they had some areas where they could expand and have some detention they would, but right now the grant really limits them to just the areas we are putting storm sewer in and within those locations there really is no location, other than the town park, for detention and right now it’s just not real feasible.”

Attorney Loy asked, ‘And how much is the grant?”

Mr. Reisert replied, “$980,000 total for engineering and contstruction.”

Attorney Loy stated, “And those grant dollars will not be forthcoming for any other project except for what is designed, is that right?”

Mr. Reisert replied, “Correct.”

Attorney Loy stated, “I am the county attorney and I represent these guys.  The issue for the county is, of course, that this is town project.  It’s designed by the town and I’m sure the commissioners are all for it, but my concern is that the town needs the Drainage Board’s consent to put any additional water into their tile and also the county drainage ordinance requires a permit.  If the plan itself causes problems down the road it’s kind of the last person that touches it that gets the blame and if the county has to sign off on this for a town project…that is the concern I have.  Our professionals are over here, the engineers that sign off on this have to be confident that this is not going to violate any of the parameters of our county drainage code or transfer a drainage problem from one person to another, one entity to another, or one landowner to another because I can assure you if there are problems the Commissioners will hear it.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “The other interesting thing, I totally agree with what George has said…I don’t think the side ditch along 900 W is regulated, it’s the tile underneath that’s regulated.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “The tile underneath is regulated, it’s a county road side ditch…but that tile underneath is the Pugh, right?  That’s the Pugh tile that goes out to the Stoller ditch?  I was just asking George, if we were to sign this thing and say--ok the Town of Wolcott can put all the water they want out there…we’ve already flooded some factories out there.  We already have some problems and if this Pugh has to be rebuilt what are we going to do, put it back on the county, the farmers and everything to rebuild it?  Is that something that we want to do?  The farmers around that town spent a ton of money on the Unroe…and that was primarily carried by the landowners, farmers draining through that where it was bad in town.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “That’s a different watershed, but you are exactly right.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “It’s the same deal…and that’s why I’m curious, are we going to have to rebuild that Pugh within one or two years and re-assess it to the landowners?”

Mr. Reisert stated, “One thing that might be available and the town is trying to look into it and trying to get some more information...but through the disaster relief funding which was part of the stimulus funding…a lot of the projects that have under that program actually come in with favorable bids so there might potentially be some additional money that the town might be able to get, or the county might be able to get to do some improvements downstream.” 

Chairman Schmierer stated, “But if that doesn’t…the landowners and town will be assessed for it.  That is the only thing I question, if we’re making a bigger mess than we’ve already got.  I understand what you are trying to do.”

Mr. Yelton explained, “My name is Mike Yelton and I am with the Wolcott Town Board.  One of the concerns that we have already is when we took on this grant project we knew where in town we flooded, but we didn’t exactly know why, but we got this money and we’ve done all this work and we found out that we didn’t start in the right place is what actually happened.  We should have started on the north side of town to get the water away…but since that’s mostly the county tile, Pugh tile, which already doesn’t drain town we’re curious to know what we do if we don’t do this project, how do we get the drainage to go out of town?  It’s our estimate that the Pugh tile needs to be…is that the Stoller above that?  We already need to do work on that and we found that out.  Are we going to be responsible for that also, or who is going take care of that if we don’t do our work?”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “I’m sure if your houses or property are in that watershed you’ll be responsible for it.”

Mr. Yelton stated, “This is my house here.  All that water…we flood every spring.  If we don’t do this project what are we going to do to get the water out of the park as it stands now?  What we would like to do is go ahead with the project because we’ve already spent $65,000-$70,000 of the grant which we haven’t gotten yet and then take care of the park that goes out north.  We feel like since we’re surrounded by county we either put the water on the county or we take the county’s water so we’d like to work together to get it out of there.  One of our current plans is that we hope to get a pond out here, now, that’s going to be hard for us to do but if the Stoller ditch and the Hoagland ditch already don’t take our water, we don’t know where else we’re going to put it anyway.  Since we’re into this and we can drain most of town and still only flood the park, which already floods anyway, that’s why we’re hoping to go ahead with this project without actually knowing where this water goes because it’s not more water, it just gets to the park faster.  So, we are open to suggestions, but we’d still really like to go ahead with the project too and use the monies that are available for us.”

Attorney Loy asked, “What entity owns the park?”

Mr. Yelton replied, “Princeton Township.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “You know, looking at the one picture as you did Ron, the three by three box under US 24 looked lower than I thought it looked.  If most of that park flooded, I guess I’m back to the point that the box is inlet control…and it’s holding the water back.  The case could be made that since it is holding the water back already, we really won’t be making the situation worse downstream because it’s going to be acting like…”

Board Member Burton stated, “But you’re going to put the water north of US 24 quicker and so it becomes more of a recurring event of a problem than…I agree with you that the box is only going to let it through here, but the efficiency of the system, as everyone puts water in will put water in the park faster which means it’s going to flood.  The problem isn’t going to be any bigger; it’s just going to be longer of an event that happens.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “While the detention pond does take your hydrograph and cuts it off, so your right the flood will be longer, it won’t be more water just more of a duration so what will happen is it will come up to the same elevation, it will just stay up longer.

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “There is also another box at the cut off road.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I also think that Steve Brooke just recently replaced the culverts under 900 W.”

Mr. Reisert explained, “One of the other concerns that the town has is that with the OCRA grant they won’t actually get that money unless the project goes to construction.”

Attorney Loy asked, “By when?”

Mr. Reisert replied, “It doesn’t matter when the project starts, but they ended dated the project at December 31, 2011.  It has to be completed by then.”

Board Member Burton stated, “What kind of comes to mind is a previous project where it was kind of skirted and we sent a letter stating that it doesn’t conform and they are responsible for…”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Well, we’ve done that with the church…but this is different. That out there is only going to effect the church.  This affects more people.”

Attorney Loy stated, “The businesses there, is that north of US 24, right?”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “I’ve been out to Witko several times…”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Is this something that that the board wants to approve today or is it something we want to put off for two weeks and discuss it some more?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “The other interesting thing is that on the other side of town we have a similar situation.”

Attorney Loy asked, “How is the town assessed on these tiles?”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “I’m not sure about the Pugh.”

Surveyor Sterrett asked, “Are you assessed personally?”

Mr. Yelton replied, “On the Winters and the Dolick.”

Surveyor Sterrett replied, “So, probably individual.”

Attorney Loy stated, “Do you understand that any improvements made to county tiles…the landowners end up paying for it’s not the county, but…”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “What is interesting is that the 15 inch tile that they are draining into on the east side of town is a private tile.  It is a new private tile, an 18 inch going into an existing 15 inch private tile….that tile drains into the what?”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “Unroe.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Yeah, I’m talking about the east side, but wheels were just spinning that you had a private running into a private and there’s a flooding problem downstream…I just don’t see how the Drainage Board is responsible, it’s not their tile.  It’s definitely the town’s problem.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “When it hits Unroe it will be our problem.”

Attorney Loy stated, “I think they still need a drainage permit.  These businesses north of US 24, are they aware of what is going on?  They know that water is coming their way?”

Mr. Reisert replied, “I’m not sure.  None of them have come to any of our meetings.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “They are in town now.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, ‘They are annexed now?”

Mr. Yelton replied, “Yes.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “Out how far, is Witko in?”

Mr. Yelton stated, “It goes to Witko and that’s it.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Do you have city water and sewer out there now?”

Mr. Yelton replied, “Yes.”

Attorney Loy asked, “No alternative drainage plans?”

Mr. Reisert replied, “Unfortunately, we don’t know of any other alternative.  Short of detention and some other improvements like that which are above and beyond the current project…we wouldn’t be able to do that as part of this…”

Attorney Loy asked, “Detention…in respect to which project?”

Mr. Reisert replied, “As far as draining the north end…we don’t know of any other place that we can drain short of putting detention ponds in…that would provide some relief in controlling the flow.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Didn’t you say the one was going into a private tile?  Didn’t you say those go under some houses and you’re going to hook into that?”

Mr. Reisert stated, “We would like to go down Burke Street, make the turn at Market and release some of the water that’s going under some of those houses and turn it and run it down Market Street.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “So you’re not going to hook into it, really?”

Mr. Reisert stated, “We are going to hook in, but beyond where the houses are.”

Mr. Yelton replied, “We didn’t actually even know where that went until about five years ago when we dug down…”

Board Member Burton stated, “But again, that’s dumping into the Unroe.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “They call it existing county tile, but its private tile.  This is the 18 and it’ll drop down into a 15…basically the flow lines match up but my concern is you can see how the ground gets higher here and it gets lower here so if the water comes out of this inlet, which is definitely might, this Lot 17…is going to flood.”

Chairman Schmierer asked, “Are you suggesting that we approve this one?”

Engineer Frauhiger replied, “The town doesn’t want to hear this, but I still think if this would be considered for approval, the ten year storm is just not the right kind of storm.  In their situation, there is just no place to put the water you are just moving the problem downstream and it’s going to set you guys up, it’s going to set this Drainage Board up, it’s going to set everyone involved in this project up for the people downstream to be really mad.  I don’t know…we can show them a picture and say look at the flooding here and they’ll show us the pictures afterwards of it flooding down here now.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “When we looked at the two year event we’ve done that to try to see what kind of…we’re still at 7.8 cfs.”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Yeah, but that shows a good faith effort.  You have to remember that the flooding upstream is not going to be as bad, because right now you’re not moving anywhere close to 7 cfs in your existing system…maybe 2 or 3 cfs if you are lucky.  You are probably doubling or tripling the capacity even if you are going down to a two year or five year design storm to get that water away, but it shows in my opinion, good faith effort to the people downstream that yes we know there is a problem and yes we are trying to address it.  Here is what we did.  It’s going to decrease the pipe sizes and increase the slopes.  It’s going to increase the velocity of the pipe which will keep the scour out of it…”

Mr. Reisert stated, “Due to grade we have decreased our pipe size as much as we can, but we can’t change the grades any so we would actually have to get a variance to flatten our pipes flatter than the criteria that you would want…”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “Yeah, but we would get better cover…”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Well, I’ll tell you what let’s table this today so it can give us some time to work with Todd and see what we can come up with.  With seeing it for the first time today I am not comfortable doing this and just making a bigger mess some place else.  Let’s table this today and bring it back in two weeks.  You work on it, Todd work on it and see if we can’t come up with something a little more acceptable…and cover every possible base that we can.  I know you are in hurry, but….you aren’t going to get in this kind of ground anyway.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “Well, based on timing we were going to try and bid in January so we could open up first of spring.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “I just think we need to table this until we get some more information.  This is almost worse than what is at the other end.”

Attorney Loy stated, “And I personally would not want, for what it’s worth, I would personally want the people downstream that are going to be the ones that will be potentially flooded….I would want for them to be aware, have some input to potentially know what is coming their way.  If you are going to be flooding Peter to relieve Paul I would like for Peter to know that it’s coming.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “If you are going to flood that park on the 4th of July you better all leave town.”

Surveyor Sterrett stated, “I don’t think Todd will be at that meeting (December 20th).”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I will not be at that meeting, but I’ll figure out a way to make sure that I’ve got representation here if I have to do a conference call or something, but I’ll figure something out.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “At what rain event is that park going to flood after this?  I assume it’s going to take less rain than it takes now?”

Engineer Frauhiger stated, “I can tell you that a one and a half inch rain at 7cfs…what I think will happen is it will get to the end of that paved side ditch and those end values change so drastically, even if the box could handled the flow, you’re going to get a big hydraulic jump there and it’s going to go into the park as it continues on down to the box.  I really think you should think about half pipe because you can convey just as much in it…much, much easier to maintain in the future.  An inch and half rain is probably going to flood the park and that’s a two year storm.  How often does it flood now?”

Mr. Yelton stated, “There’s been at least two in the last three or four years I think.”

Board Member Heimlich stated, “Well, I would say to flood it before you were looking at two and half to three inch.”

Chairman Schmierer stated, “Now you are going to flood it at an inch and a half.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “Well, it didn’t flood the park it flooded the rest of the park.  It’s not a matter of whether the park floods at a two year event, it’s whether or not the town floods on a two year event and if we do some improvements, we’re hopefully relieving some of the flooding in town.”

Board Member Burton stated, “And I think most people would accept that, it’s just that the fact that once that water jumps north of US 24 the people still in the watershed out there…if nothing else they haven’t had an input on this…they aren’t going to be very friendly.”

Attorney Loy stated, “And they are going to be coming here because we issued a drainage permit.  I trust you understand that, that is my concern.”

Mr. Reisert stated, “We are certainly going to look at coordinating with them.  We are proposing a plan where we had outfall issues and before we really got the public too involved we wanted to see which direction we would need to consider going.”

Board Member Heimlich made a motion to table the drainage review for the Town of Wolcott Storm Water Project until the December 20th Drainage Board meeting.  Board Member Burton seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

Surveyor Sterrett reported the transfer of funds from 046 Maintenance to 045 Maintenance Repay. 

Chairman Schmierer asked if there was anything further for the Drainage Board.  Chairman Schmierer then adjourned the meeting.