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January 17, 2011
The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:45 A. M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana. Board members present were: President Ronald Schmierer, Vice President Steve Burton, and Drainage Board Member John Heimlich. Also present were Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Bradley Ward and Drainage Assistant Mary Sterrett.
Also in attendance were:
Sharon Watson-White County Soil and Water Robert Thomas-Town of Wolcott
Marc Rape-Strand & Associates Katie MacMannis-Strand & Associates
Todd Frauhiger, P.E. Major Thompson
Jeff VanWheelden Connie Neininger
Dave Jordan Debbie Conover
Plus others
The first item on the agenda was to approve the minutes from the January 4th, 2011 meeting. Board Member Heimlich so moved. Board Member Burton seconded the motion. Motion carried unanimously.
The next item on the agenda was Town of Wolcott Drainage Plan Revision Review.
Surveyor Ward turned the Town of Wolcott Drainage Review over to Engineer Frauhiger.
Todd Frauhiger stated, "I am sorry that he missed the last meeting but I was not back from Florida. I’m not sure what was exactly discussed so I guess I will start from what was revised from the last meeting we were at. I met with the Department of Transportation, Merrill Jordan, about the possibility of restricting flow in the new structure under US 24. For a number of reasons Merrill suggested the restriction go up stream of that US 24 crossing. The reasons he said that he would prefer that it go upstream is so that when the water came out of the ditch which it is going to, it would definitely go into the park. It would have to work its way through the park slowing the water down before it got to the structure under US 24. We have talked about under US 24 putting a one (1) foot tall restriction whether it be with rip rap or just a concrete wall. So what we did or what we suggested to Strand was one potential solution is they move that one (1) foot restriction up stream some place. What they suggested was actually move it upstream of the Pugh Ditch crossing. They create a concrete weir, they put three (3) six (6) by eight (8) inch openings which are very small openings. When you think about you are talking about an opening about that tall. I had talked to James (Reisert) prior to James changing careers I guess, about trying to keep that opening open. To me there could be potential maintenance issues with it but then above that opening there is another six (6) inches of concrete weir depth. Then the weir elevation if you notice on this detail it is basically the same elevation as the park. So, the water that doesn’t go through those three (3) openings will come up go over the weir and at the same time it going over the weir it will be going in to the park. One thing that was potentially discussed at the meeting that I missed was that the park needed to understand that if this was approved and if that restriction went in up stream of the Pugh crossing that there is absolutely going to be additional flooding into the park. That is just the way that it is designed. When that water comes up and goes over the weir its going to be at such an elevation and it is also going to be going in to the park at the same time. I think and correct me if I am wrong and I’m pretty sure that between the two (2) and ten (10) year storm will go through the openings before it will crest the weir."
Board Member Burton asked, "Where is this going to be located?"
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "Remember where the concrete ditch was going to cross the Pugh Drain and there is going to be an opening that would allow water drop into it? This will be up stream of the drain."
Board Member Burton asked, "Where is that from the veterinary?"
Chairman Schmierer asked, "Is that from the veterinary office?"
Engineer Frauhiger continued, "Yeah! The other thing that my understanding is the concrete side ditch that was going to go up and go along US 24 is now going to be stopped at the Pugh."
Katie MacMannis replied, "Stopped, that is correct."
Board Member Burton asked, "So, this is going to along Fourth Street?"
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "This is the bird’s eye view I guess , showing plans. Basically it would be right in here some place and the Pugh Drain would be right in here."
Chairman Schmierer asked, "Where is the Pugh Drain located Todd?"
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "The Pugh Drain works it way across through that parking lot. If I remember correctly it is underneath the side ditch along nine hundred (900). Goes under the road and eventually comes out to the Stoller."
Chairman Schmierer replied, "So, we still got the water going to the park!"
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "That is correct! But now what is happening is by putting that restrictive weir in this place. Stopping the side ditch, the paved side ditch at the Pugh, any water that gets through and doesn’t drop into the Pugh is going to the grass ditch. It will either go into the park there or it will go into the park right at the weir. So it will definitely at least in my opinion. I don’t know if Marc or Katie (Strand and Associates) have anything else? In my opinion it will definitely put more water into the park. Now what it does down stream correct me if I am wrong. I think that there was a Heck Graph done that showed prior to the restriction being put in, the weir being putting in, it was going to increase flood elevations by four tenths of a foot.
Katie MacMannis replied, "We put together a very…………..graph model. We did not survey that whole ditch area but that is what the model was showing."
Chairman Schmierer asked, "Will that put more water to the north?"
Engineer Frauhiger answered, "That would have happened prior to this. Because with this now in basically what is going to happen is kind of what IDOT (Indiana Department of Transportation) wanted. The water is going to have to go into the park, works its way through the park down to the IDOT structure. Get through the IDOT structure, get through this structure on this road here and work its way through the ditch. I am not going to stand here and say that there will not be any more water going north. But if this gets approved this is probably the best chance we have mitigating any impact that they have further north. Basically using the park as a detention pond."
Chairman Schmierer replied, "You still got the same problem. The town doesn’t own the park and I don’t know if they have got any………….. "
Board Member Heimlich asked, "Do you know if the Township has been notified?"
Representative of the Town of Wolcott-Robert Thomas stated, "No I don’t! I wasn’t at the last Drainage Board Meeting. Chad (Town of Wolcott Representative) made me aware that you guys were requesting that we get permission from the park. I thought Mike (Town of Wolcott Representative) was going be here and I don’t have any clue if they got permission from the park or not."
Chairman Schmierer stated, "We need written permission before we ever done that because…."
Board Member Burton stated, "Don’t confuse the term park because Township….."
Robert Thomas replied, "I just call it the park. I understand what you are saying."
Board Member Burton stated, "You know there have been a lot of changes on that Township Board."
Robert Thomas replied, "Yes!"
Engineer Frauhiger stated, "The one other thing that could be done. If after the sewer was installed, the weir and the restrictive orifices were put in place. If there is still a problem to the north or a problem that looks like it is going to be worse. We could come back to the outlet of the new storm sewer which is exactly going to happen down here, I’ll get to that in a second. We could actually put an orifice plate on the outlet of the storm sewer. Which would further restrict the flows. That would actually decrease the flows in to the park and decrease the flows coming out of the storm sewer. I guess in my particular thought is being able to use most of this park as storage now is probably going to…. I won’t say make it perfect north but it is the best that can be done."
Chairman Schmierer replied, "I don’t know if you can use that park as storage."
Engineer Frauhiger stated, "I don’t either."
Chairman Schmierer stated, "They don’t own the ground so how can they use that park for storage. If the Township don’t want them to use it for storage. They own the ground. We don’t own the ground."
Engineer Frauhiger replied. "You are exactly right."
Chairman Schmierer stated, "That is what scares me. We have already had Ringers in here that own the ground and building north. They have already been complaining about being flooded. We don’t need any more problems there. I don’t know what the answer is, I think the only answer is, I am not sure what they can do. I think they only answer is probably a bigger tile coming out of town."
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "Brad (Surveyor) and I were talking a little bit before, I am not sure if tile or open ditch would be the best solution. You are right……"
Chairman Schmierer stated, "The tile probably won’t carry it as much as there is, a tile probably won’t carry it."
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "An open ditch would probably be better but that is where we are! Katie and Marc (Strand and Associates) did I miss anything? Now the other end of town going ahead and jump just to talk about every thing. You remember we had an eighteen (18) inch pipe dropping into a fifteen (15) or twelve (12)….. fifteen (15) and what has been agreed to do is at the structure where the eighteen (18) comes in and drops in. We are going to put in a restriction plate. The eighteen (18) would not drop any more water than the twelve could contain. So basically we are going to use the new pipe as storage and it will act exactly the way it currently does."
Chairman Schmierer asked, "That is a private tile Todd. On the south end that you are hooking in to am I right, isn’t that a private tile?"
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "Right, that they are dropping into. The fifteen (15) inch they are dropping into is a private tile."
Chairman Schmierer stated, "We can’t give them permission to drop into a private tile that we don’t control."
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "I thought it already dropped in! That water already goes there!"
Chairman Schmierer replied, "Ok !"
Engineer Frauhiger stated, "So, what we are saying, what Strand is saying is that they won’t put any more water in that tile then currently goes."
Board Member Burton asked, "Under extreme water elevations will the water pressure create problems with that?"
Engineer Frauhiger answered, "No! We have to make sure the orifice plate is small enough that you would calculate the head before water comes on to the up stream. You would calculate the head to make sure we would not drop any more water in that tile."
Board Member Burton asked, "I have heard the term blow outs is it possible of restricting that we are going to create a problem to where....or geysers." "Old Faithful"
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "I don’t think any worse than it currently is. It shouldn’t change from what it currently is quite honestly. If we don’t allow any more water to drop in to that tile than it can handle. It is larger tile in the ground and basically what the intent would be is that orifice plate would be removable. If you remember it was talked about that some one was going to try to make a commitment that you would increase that pipe size of that private tile underneath the railroad before it gets down to the legal tile. So basically if any one got the down stream tile sized correctly we could go back and take that orifice plate out. Let all the water go at that point. Again not the perfect solution but that is the recommendation that is being made. I agree with you at the north end Ron (Chairman Schmierer). I don’t know if the town doesn’t own the park and that the Trustee owns the park……."
Chairman Schmierer replied, "We already told them that they had to get permission. They have already been told that they had to have written permission."
Attorney Loy stated, "Yeah, in the nature of an easement. Todd, correct me if I am wrong but a recent drainage plan for………..yeah, Great Oaks. Part of the plan was some up stream water detention on church property, is that right?"
Engineer Frauhiger replied. "Yes! That was a situation where the designed detention facility that was going to back water up on to a adjoining property."
Attorney Loy continued, "Similar scenario! We required as part of the plan that the church in this case give a written easement. Water storage easement pretty standard stuff, which they did. Number one so that they actually …it is between the land owner and the church in that case as to whether or not they allow that water build up. But it also gives acknowledgement to the Drainage Board that yeah we can censor this and it is our problem not the Drainage Board’s design problem."
Engineer Frauhiger asked, "Katie (MacMannis) do you survey across the park at all?"
Katie MacMannis replied, "We have it around the edge not in the actual."
Board Member Burton asked about James Reisert who is no longer an employee of Strand and Associates. Mr. Rape of Strand and Associates told the Board that James has taken a job in investment banking.
Board Member Burton asked, "So Todd, what you are recommending on the….. let’s stick with the south piece at the moment. If it is ok Ron (Chairman Schmierer) I would like to view in two ( 2) pieces. So you are comfortable with the south project?"
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "If that orifice plate is sized correctly and I told them that I wanted to be involved. I told James (Reisert) that I have an e-mail and I not sure if Katie (MacMannis) saw it or not. I have an e-mail to that affect that orifice plate be sized to decrease the flow out of that eighteen (18) to the appropriate level that the fifteen (15) can handle it. So that part I am more comfortable with, Yes!"
Chairman Schmierer asked, "Isn’t this south tile you are talking about doesn’t that private tile go under some houses?"
Katie MacMannis replied, "That is upstream of where we are tying in."
Chairman Schmierer asked, "You are hooking in below where that goes under the houses or beyond it?"
Katie MacMannis answered, "Beyond it!"
Chairman Schmierer replied, "Right! What will the back pressure do?"
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "The back pressure has to be calculated. My understanding is that it floods right now. Again it is much better to start at the down end stream of a system and work your way back up stream. In both cases we are not doing that. We are working with the up stream end. I keep saying we, it is not us it is what was proposed."
Chairman Schmierer stated, "I can understand the Town of Wolcott wanting to get the water out and I sympathize with them. But at the same token we can’t go to work and let them use the park for a retention pond. Even the south down there with it being a private tile if we are going to create problems some where else we can be in trouble there."
Engineer Frauhiger replied. "I would say since if that is a private tile if the town is going to get a letter from the Trustee about the park …huh ...some one help me. Is there an existing tile you are replacing on the south side dropping in to that fifteen (15)? I guess that is between the town and the private tile. Who owns the private tile?"
Chairman Schmierer stated, "I don’t know, I don’t know anyone who knows who owns it do they?"
Robert Thomas replied, "Which tile is that the south one? I have no a clue. Living there my whole life and being a kid I always thought that tile kind of went into the pond. Until we had to put a catch basin in and clean it. It goes under 1..2..3...I think 4...four (4) houses and ends up back over on Market Street. We had to asked permission to even go in one (1) yard to put in a catch basin because it is about seven hundred (700) feet from where we put the catch basin in, to get in to clean it over to Market Street. No body was willing to let us put in any kind of clean out or catch basin in their yards to access that tile."
Chairman Schmierer replied, "What concerns me is the back pressure on that it could cause us more problems then…."
Robert Thomas replied, "That tile, I am going to guess that tile was there when those houses were built."
Chairman Schmierer stated, "Probably that tile is one hundred (100) years old clay tile."
Robert Thomas replied, "Yeah, Yeah, those are new homes."
Chairman Schmierer continued. "There is no way it is going to hold."
Robert Thomas replied, "Yeah, you know I wouldn’t want to own a home there and get the back pressure."
Chairman Schmierer replied, "That is what concerns me!"
Robert Thomas stated, "Yeah, I understand that concern!"
Katie MacMannis replied, "Also a lot of the water that goes into that fifteen (15) inch tile now we are picking up by our new sewer system."
Robert Thomas stated, "We would actually be diverting it."
Chairman Schmierer asked, "Are you going to shut it off before you hook into it, above it or beyond it or something?"
Robert Thomas replied, "We hate to because what we are trying to divert south and then take down Market Street a little bit could still continue to go through that private tile. Actually being a ……employee I would like to say that it would not. I couldn’t say that the people up north wouldn’t say that it wouldn’t. It would be nice to have no ……of flowing water."
Chairman Schmierer asked, "What’s the dangers of that Todd? You put a lot of water in it down stream its got to go some place."
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "Yeah, the interesting thing I think is with the orifice plate being in the last man hole. With an existing tile going where it is going it is going to be a large tile. We are just not going to allow any more water get down in to that fifteen (15). So basically what going to happen is that it is larger tile going in to the ground but hydraulically we are not changing any thing down stream. Up stream even thought it is a large tile and you keep talking about back pressure. You have an eighteen (18) inch going in and you are replacing a twelve (12) inch tile that is there right now. You are not allowing any more water if you will, to go in to the ground or go in to the fifteen (15) or twelve (12) inch tile that is there right now. It is just going to be kind of the way it is right now. Every thing that is floods right now will flood after the project is over. There is not a lot of hydraulic change."
Robert Thomas said, " Todd is correct both of those tiles are eventually going to meet up at the same place."
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "The worse part in the system is going to be up stream at the lowest point where any water that currently backs out of the ground is going to back out of the ground afterward too. I think every one on the town’s side has to go in with their eyes open. A bigger pipe is not really in the short term going to improve the situation."
Chairman Schmierer stated, "I don’t think there is any thing we can do for them today with out a commitment letter from the park and every thing else there but…I hate it because they need things to get going but by the same token we don’t…..We told them at the last meeting we needed a commitment letter."
Attorney Loy stated, "In the form of an easement. I would take a look at what was done at the Great Oaks Project. What was the name of the church Todd do you recall?"
Engineer Frauhiger could not remember the name of the church.
Surveyor Ward stated, "The Baptist something wasn’t it? The Baptist Church down there."
Engineer Frauhiger stated, "Marc and Katie let me tell you what that situation was. The only way I can think do it there is after you have had a topo of the park. That was a designed detention basin that actually backed water up on to an adjoining property owner. In this particular case what I think I would do if I were you, I would probably some how take my Quick Heck Graph and extend it in to the park. Try to determine what portion of the park is going to be flooded and to what depth. Just have that in your letter to the Trustee. Quite honestly I ….what has it got before in there? A foot deep in there or two (2) feet deep?"
Chairman Schmierer and others answered that they had no idea.
Attorney Loy asked, "Do they have a Trustee yet?"
Several in the audience answered, Yes and they have a full Board now.
Engineer Frauhiger asked, "Did any one from the Trustee’s office show up at the last meeting?"
Attorney Loy replied, "They did not have one at the last meeting and they did not have a full Board."
Board Member Heimlich asked, "Is there any calculation has to what rain event that is going to flood the park, one (1) inch of rain, one (1)inch and one half (1 1/2)?"
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "I can’t remember off the top of my head. It is some place around a five (5) year…..between a ten (10) and a two (2) year storm…I can’t remember what the two (2) year is it one (1)inch and one half (1 1/2) ?"
Board Member Burton stated, "Two (2) year I think was an inch and one half (1½)."
Engineer Frauhiger continued, "I think it is going to be a situation where…. I don’t know how often the park floods now but I would guess multiple times every five (5) years you are going to have water in the park."
Board Member Heimlich replied, "I don’t know for sure, I am over there when we had a big rain I could see probably a three (3) inches rain. But that is why I am asking now. I would think one (1) inch, inch and one half (l 1/2) or two (2) inches probably."
Engineer Frauhiger stated, "With this in place those three (3 ) openings in the weir will pass between a two (2) and a five (5) maybe a ten(10) year storm. So, any thing that is there above that is going to start backing up and eventually when it crests the top of the weir it is also cresting the elevation going in to the park. You are right there will be a lower storm event and if one of those openings gets plugged. Again like a frizbee gets tossed in the park and ends up in the ditch. A football, a ball, anything it could easily block one of those openings and then all bets are off!"
Chairman Schmierer replied, "Corn stalks!"
Board Member Burton stated, "Well, then it comes up and goes over the top of weir."
Engineer Frauhiger replied, "It comes up and goes over the top of the weir and as soon as it does that it is going in to the park also."
Chairman Schmierer said, "Well, I think that is where we are at. We are going to have to have those agreements. I don’t think I can help you. That is about all we can do for you and I’m sorry that is just where we are at."
Attorney Loy asked, "If you could from the Great Oaks file pull out that easement. I know that I eye balled it at one point and give them a copy of it. That is what we would be looking for."
Next item on the agenda was the possibilities of a project on the F. Brown Branch #1 Drain.
Surveyor Ward stated, "Mike Streitmatter called in wanting to know about getting it dipped. He owns about the whole section right there and he farms some of the ground up in Jasper County too. It is a joint drain. I am just asking for guidance on how to approach it since this is my first one."
Chairman Schmierer replied, "Just call him and tell to get a petition and get it signed by as many people that it affects as he can. That is the best way."
Surveyor Ward continued, "We are ready to send a letter on the Mertz and Muck Ditch, a wavier letter to Cass County."
Chairman Schmierer asked, "Do you have the letter ready to go Mary?"
Drainage Assistant Sterrett replied, "Yes, I do!"
Chairman Schmierer asked, "Do you have a copy of it with you?"
Drainage Assistant Sterrett replied, "No, not with me!"
Attorney Loy asked, "It is the usual thing where they ask them to waive their rights?"
Drainage Assistant Sterrett replied, "Yes!"
Chairman Schmierer asked if there was any thing further for the Drainage Board and with no reply Chairman Schmierer adjourned the meeting.