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September 19, 2011


The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:43 A. M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana.  Board members present were:  Vice President Steve Burton, Drainage Board Member John Heimlich and Drainage Board Member David Diener.  Also present were Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Bradley Ward and Drainage Assistant Mary Sterrett. 

Also in attendance were:

Sharon Watson-White County Soil and Water
Tony Cain - T & M Cain Enterprises, LLC
Marc Clapper - Clapper Funeral Services
Tara Gochenour
Rusty Gochenour

The September 19, 2011 White County Drainage Board was called to order by Vice President Steve Burton.   At this time Vice President Burton welcomed the White County Drainage Board’s new Drainage Board Member David Diener.

The first item on the agenda was to approve the minutes from the September 6th, 2011 White County Drainage Board Meeting.  Board Member John Heimlich so moved.  Vice President Burton seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

Next on the agenda-Approve the Dorsey Drain #532 Maintenance Petition

Surveyor Ward stated, “A petition to do a maintenance project on the Dorsey Ditch.  We will be cleaning the whole ditch probably.  I have not been out to look at the whole thing, we just started with the petition. I think just about everybody has signed that.”

Vice President Burton asked, “That is on it?  Quickly a statistical.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “Yes. It is about seven (7) miles of ditch.  There is sixty-two thousand dollars ($62,000.00) in the fund. It brings in twelve thousand dollars ($12,000.00) or fourteen thousand dollars ($14,000.00) a year.  So there are a lot of funds to start with.”

Board Member Heimlich moved to accept the Dorsey Petition for maintenance.  Board Member Diener seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

Vice President Burton responded, “It goes on the list.”

Next on the agenda-Open Quotes on the Henry Stewart Tile Drain #634

Attorney Loy stated, “We solicited quotes for the maintenance the Henry Stewart Tile Drain and it appear we have received two (2).”

T&M Cain Enterprises, LLC-$1,750.00

American Rustic Builders of Brookston-$4,420.00-If additional work is found to be needed outside of this proposal there is an hourly rate of one hundred and forty dollars ($140.00) per hour, plus materials.

Attorney Loy asked, “Is there was anybody here representing any other firms here or name that I didn’t mention?”

Vice President Burton replied, “I will quickly review.”

Surveyor Ward stated, “This is Lynnora Blissitt’s property south of Brookston.”

Vice President Burton continued, “South of Brookston that exits into the Moots?  Just of reference back for our records.  The low bid here is considerably less than what was …”

Surveyor Ward answered, “ Moots Creek, yes. I estimated two thousand, six hundred and fifty dollars ($2,650.00).  It is basically just to remove the silt six hundred (600) feet out of the outlet.  A landowner will be removing the silt and using the silt on his property, for what I don’t know.” 

Attorney Loy asked, “What did you say your estimate was, two thousand, six hundred and fifty dollars $2,650.00)?”

Board Member Heimlich said, “I would move to accept the low bid of one thousand, seven hundred and fifty dollars ($1,750.00) or the quote.”

Attorney Loy replied, “It is a quote.” 

Board Member Diener asked, “Is there some specifications of what he does for this amount of money?”

Attorney Loy answered, “Yeah.”

Board Member Diener asked, “Ok, all this has is a number and a guy’s name.  This information was submitted to…?”

Attorney Loy answered, “To T&M Cain, Brad (Surveyor Ward) you want to make sure that they fully understand.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “Yeah, I believe you read the….”

Tony Cain said, “I left the office with the intention that I could scribbled it in there this morning.”

Board Member Diener replied, “That is fine I understand and this is my first meeting this might be very common.  Normally when you see a piece of paper with quotes you would like to know for what.”

Tony Cain replied, “Normally it would be on my letter head, I apologize.”

Vice President Burton replied, “This is not normal.”

Board Member Diener then made a motion to accept T&M Cain Enterprise’s quote of one thousand, seven hundred and fifty dollars ($1,750.00) for the Henry Stewart Tile Drain #634 Maintenance Project.  Motion seconded by Board Member Heimlich.  Motion carried unanimously.

Vice President Burton stated, “You can proceed as you wish Bard (Surveyor Ward).”

Next on the agenda-Rusty Gochenour-Branch #1 of The Scott Hughes Tile Branch of the James Carter Drain #621
Viewing a computer generated map

Surveyor Ward stated, “This is Rusty here.  He is wanting to put a pole barn up on his property.  It is a fairly good size building, sixty by ninety-six (60x96) I believe. Originally he had planned to put it back here on the back side of the property in this area.  We have a County Tile that runs, you can kind of see it on here, runs right through here and another one that comes down here and picks up the railroad tracks.”   

Vice President Burton asked, “Where is that?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “This is Division Road, let me see if I can get you a better map.  Three Hundred (300) East.  I don’t know if you are familiar with Charlie Shepard’s property.  This is Charlie Shepard’s property here, Monticello to the east.  This is the Scott Hughes Tile, it drains into the Carter Ditch.  The tile actually drains right here.  There is a ditch right here, Scott Hughes Ditch, then drains into the Carter Ditch to the north.  I believe you are asking for a right of way encroachment today.”

Rusty Gochenour stated, “That would be my first thing but if the Board doesn’t see to that, then I would offer to move this tile to the east and to the north and switch it around to back of the ditch. Start here, keep it on my property not go back into Shepard’s then back to the ditch head.”

Vice President Burton asked, “How much are you going to be encroaching on it?”

Rusty Gochenour answered, “By the drawing given by me it is going to be right through the center of the building.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “Encroaching isn’t an option then.”

Rusty Gochenour replied, “Either way I move the building it is going to be on top of the tile.”

Board Member Diener replied, “So he is going to move the tile.”

Board Member Heimlich said, “He is going to have to move the tile.”

Vice President Burton asked, “So this is the…?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “A lateral to accept drainage from the railroad track.  Well, probably when it was first put in it was to drain the rail road track would be my guess.”

Vice President Burton asked, “So is this regulated?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “Yes.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “How big of tile is it?”

Rusty Gochenour answered, “An eight (8) inch clay tile, very old.”

Surveyor Ward stated, “Originally if was a part of the Diener Drainage System but they put this ditch in to take the water from over here and drained it into the Carter.  This is the tile here that has been vacated since the early nineties when that was vacated.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “George (Attorney Loy) does that require a hearing because you are re-routing it?”

Attorney Loy replied, “To reroute, yeah it does.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “That is what I thought.”

Attorney Loy continued, “Of course, it would entirely be at your expense of course, right?”

Rusty Gochenour asked, “I can use my own contractor right?”

Attorney Loy answered, “Well, County approved at least.”

Vice President Burton replied, “Which means notification, which means a hearing.”

Attorney Loy asked, “How many landowners?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “There would be a bunch on that system because it is paid by the Carter Ditch.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “It is all paid out of the Carter?”

Surveyor Ward replied, “It would be quite a sizable water shed.  That tile actually goes all the way down if you are familiar with Musall’s property, probably a half (½) mile east of this location.”

Attorney Loy asked, “How long of stretch would have to be replaced?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “The stretch you are wanting to replace would probably end up being five hundred (500) feet.  Your property is two hundred (200) something wide so if you went north, back west it would probably end up being about five hundred (500) feet of new tile to put in.”

Board Member Diener asked, “Is it possible that perhaps that this old tile he is describing might have some damage to it. That it might have to be rerouted in order to repair it to avoid some of this you are talking about.  In terms of notifications and hearings.  Because I think he mentioned something about there was a small sink hole where he was going to build, maybe I misunderstood him.” 

Rusty Gochenour replied, “I have been repairing this tile.  I didn’t realize that it was a County Tile.  I have done repairs to it before in the past that is how I knew it was an eight (8) inch clay tile.”

Board Member Diener said, “Still have it inspected by the County Surveyor to make sure it meets the criteria.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “Yeah but he is not repairing it, he is rerouting it that is where the... George (Attorney Loy) can check the statue.”

Board Member Diener said, “It has to be rerouted because of where it is at.  I am just looking for a way out of this to save both them and everyone else a whole lot of trouble.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “Yeah, I know if it was just three (3) or four (4) landowners it would be different but it isn’t.”

Board Member Diener replied, “It is not affecting anyone except him.  The tile is entirely on his property and he is going to keep it on his property.  It seems like there would be a way to avoid what sounds like would be a lengthy process.” 

Rusty Gochenour stated, “ …….one hundred and fifty (150) feet of right of way which seem pretty excessive to me.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “We could grant consent to encroach if you were just close to it but we can’t allow you to build right on top of it.”

Rusty Gochenour said, “Yeah, I understand that.”

Vice President said, “I have always suggested the alternative that they just move the building.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “I don’t know if he moved the building if he could get off the tile with the size of building he is putting in.”

Vice President Burton replied, “Well, what I am talking about is people will want to build here and I’ll say that is fine but if we need to do something to the tile, well they can move the building.”

Board Member Diener said, “My thought was if he just moved the tile on his property that he owns and kept it on his property. He allows us necessary right of way wherever the tile ends up so we can maintain and repair it.  It would take care of all these issues.”

Vice President Burton asked, “Is the builder on site right now waiting for…?”

Rusty Gochenour answered, “Yes, yes we are ready.  They are working now they are ready to start drilling holes.” 

Surveyor Ward replied, “This came to light when they doing their building permit?”

Vice Burton answered, “Right which is normal and that is why this process. Because we have had people with a corner post within three (3) feet of the tile just by luck that we fine out after the building is up.  You are still researching?”

Attorney Loy answered, “Yeah, you would still need consent to encroach even after it is relocated, right?’

Vice President Burton asked that the Drainage Board jump down to the Blackman’s request while Attorney Loy researched the above issue.

Next on the agenda-Terry Blackman request for maintenance-J. L. Ackerman Branch #5 of the  J. L. Ackerman Drain #501 
Looking at computer generated aerial map

Surveyor Ward stated, “This is the Ackerman Tile System up in Cass Township, another tile issue. Terry Blackman is wanting to replace a tile on his property.  State Road Sixteen at the tee I guess, if the aerial ever comes up. It is about a quarter (¼) of a mile of tile through here.  He is wanting to replace it.  It is a County Tile I didn’t know, that tile come in here and probably follows that line right through here.  Picks up, I think the break is about right here that is probably about the water shed. Probably about eighty (80) acres on that tile that drain into it.  He repaired it a few times.  He is wanting to replace it.  I didn’t know if he could replace that on his own.  If I could give him the fifteen hundred dollars ($1,500.00) towards tile to replace that or if he has to petition it.” 

Attorney Loy responded, “I would prefer a petition.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “Is he the only one on it then?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “He is the only one that the tile is on, I believe it picks up part of this water shed south of his property line.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “So they would be paying on it?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “Yeah, actually it is the whole Ackerman System that drain Cass Township basically.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “It is all paid by the Ackerman?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “It is all paid by the Ackerman so there is how many ever live in Cass Township are probably on the water shed.  I was trying to avoid a petition of five thousand (5,000) people for a half (½) mile of tile. What I was trying to avoid but if we have to petition we have to petition it.”

Attorney Loy replied, “Kind of the same deal.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “Kind of the same thing we were looking at here.  It would be harder to give him the money without some sort of competitive process.”

Surveyor Ward stated, “That is why I was talking use the maintenance.”

Attorney Loy replied, “We could go with quotes.”

Vice President Burton asked, “And where does the branch end?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “The end of the tile ends probably getting really close to the property line. It is about a half (½) mile of tile.”

Vice President Burton asked, “The condition of the tile on to the west?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “It is open ditch right here. It drains right here at the highway.” 

Vice President Burton asked, “So, on that branch this is the only tile?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “Yeah that is the end of the run there.”

Board Member Diener asked, “How much money did you say you have in that fund?”

Vice President Burton answered, “The Ackerman is just,,.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “Bunch of money, probably has sixty thousand dollars ($60,000.00), fifty-seven thousand dollars ($57,000.00) in that fund.  It drains everything south of the Indian Creek and north of the Township Line basically.”

Vice President Burton said, “My struggle here with this is going along with George (Attorney Loy) is we need to view this is a County Tile.  We would go through a process of awarding this or award it to the cheapest or whatever the term might be.  That would be fine but without going through some kind of process.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “How long of stretch is it that he wants to do?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “Probably the whole half (½) mile.  Basically from this highway, Sate Road 16, to where it outlets into the Ackerman Ditch or one of the Ackerman Ditches.  It runs along here and stops about the property line.”

Attorney Loy replied, “Tell me again what this individual wants to do.”

Surveyor Ward said, “He wanting to replace the tile, it is all on him.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “Terry (Blackman) is a contractor and works for us.”

Attorney Loy asked, “Replace it because it is broken down or...?”

Surveyor Ward replied, “Yeah, because he is repairing it every year.  I didn’t know if I have to petition it to do that.”

Attorney Loy said, “It would be a maintenance project, it is broken down right?”

Board Member Heimlich said, “It is a maintenance project but  ...”

Surveyor Ward replied, “To replace the whole tile I didn’t know.”

Vice President Burton asked, “You are estimating fifteen hundred (1,500) feet?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “Fifteen hundred dollars ($1,500.00) won’t touch the cost of the tile.”

Attorney Loy asked, “But he is willing to foot the bill?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “I believe so.”

Vice President Burton asked, “So he would do the rest?”

Surveyor Ward continued, “I would say go to the fifteen hundred dollar ($1,500.00) threshold and stop it. Stop it with my cost then if he wanted to replace the rest of it at his own cost go about it that way.” 

Board Member Heimlich asked, “What do you mean by fifteen hundred dollars ($1,500.00)?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “Do it on maintenance, if you know the project is going to go over fifteen hundred dollars you have to do bids.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “Quotes.”

Attorney Loy replied, “Quotes we can do up to I forget the threshold but I still don’t….”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “You were saying just pay him the fifteen hundred dollar ($1,500.00) but he is going to pay the rest?  I didn’t understand that.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “Just help offset the cost of the tile.”

Attorney Loy said, “I think we would quote the whole thing.  With his agreement that he is going to pay for it, I’m asking.”

Board Member Diener asked, “Let me see if I can catch up.  Fifteen hundred dollars ($1,500.00) threshold if I wanted to repair a tile on my property?”

Attorney Loy said, “With advanced approval.”

Board Member Diener continued, “This gentleman is asking if he will replaces a half (½) mile of tile if you would give fifteen hundred dollars ($1,500.00) for maintenance.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “Well, I have not made that agreement with him.”

Board Member Diener continued, “No, no but perhaps.”

Board Member Heimlich said, “That is what you are proposing.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “That is what I am proposing.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “In your conversation with him he indicated that he was going to pay for the thing himself?”

Surveyor Ward replied, “Yeah.”

Board Member Heimlich continued, “Of course like I say he is a contractor.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “Yeah.”

Vice President Burton said, “That is different.”

Attorney Loy asked, “What would be your guess on the total cost of the whole thing?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “I don’t know the size of the tile.  If it is an eight (8) inch tile, what is that going for seven dollars ($7.00) a foot six dollars ($6.00) a foot.  If it is a ten (10) inch tile about double it seems like.  Twenty six hundred (2,600) feet probably fifteen thousand dollars ($15,000.00), is that right?  I did that number in my head.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “Well, I say he may do it cheaper than that since he is right there and got the equipment but still that is a pretty good expense.”

Board Member Diener asked, “How much are you paying for eight (8) inch tile off the top of your head?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “I don’t have that off the top of my head.”

Tony Cain replied, “If you are paying seven dollars ($7.00) or eight dollars ($8.00) a foot I am for hire.  That is too high.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “I don’t know the cost per foot.”

Tony Cain said, “I don’t recall off the top of my head but it is not near seven dollars ($7.00).”

Vice President Burton said, “But say even half of that.”

Tony Cain replied, “You got to remember to if it is an eight (8) inch clay tile you are taking quotes to put in eight (8) inch corrugated tile.” 

A few second of multiple conversations among the Board Members, Tony Cain and others that are in- auditable-see digital minutes.

Vice President Burton asked, “Well, I assume he has got crop on that right now?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “Yeah, I believe it is in beans this year.”

Vice President Burton stated, “So we got …..”

Attorney Loy replied, “We will give him an answer.”

Vice President Burton replied, “Yeah, you might clarify a little bit more of what he might…”

Surveyor Ward said, “He stopped in and was wanting to do it.  I thought I would come here first to see what could be done before we went any further.”

Vice President Burton replied, “Right, ok.”


Returning to  Rusty Gochenour’s issue-Branch #1 of the Scott Hughes Tile-Branch of the James Carter Drain #621

Vice President Burton asked, “Are you any closer to an opinion on the original?”

Attorney Loy replied, “Well...”

Vice President Burton continued, “I would say my short term, John (Board Member Heimlich) can give his opinion here, I say my short term I can’t remember a rerouting similar to what your case is.”

Attorney Loy replied, “That qualifies as a Reconstruction when you are rerouting.  Obviously you want to avoid the necessity of a full blown hearing.  So long as you are willing to pay for the entire cost.”

Board Member Heimlich said, “Most of them, we have had some like that when they rerouted for a hog building or something is in the way.  But there were mostly five (5) or six (6) landowners involved.  This is worse because it is just a large assessment roll that is going to have to be notified.”

Attorney Loy asked, “Any idea of the cost to reroute?”

Rusty Gochenour answered, “That is about five (5) hundred feet so...”

Attorney Loy asked, “Did we conclude that the tile is in need of repair, broken down, not functioning?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “I would venture to say that it is in need of repair.”

Vice President Burton asked, “The water flows south or north?”

Rusty Gochenour answered, “North.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “It come from the east along Division Road then runs about that forty-five degrees (45°) into that outlet just north of his northwest corner into that open ditch.  Then runs up to the Carter which is about a half (½) mile or so.” 

Vice President Burton said, “It is clay so it has been there awhile.  At the very minimum we need some kind of supervision.”

Board Member Diener asked, “Could I make a recommendation?  That if this gentleman is willing to reroute this tile to the specification and supervision of the supervisor, hired by an approved contactor by the surveyor.  We allow him to do that in order he can construct whatever this building is he wants to construct.  Without having to get into...  Without spending anyone else’s money.”

Vice President Burton answered, “My one (1) concern there is that the supervision.  You actually have three (3) new turns of the tile.  Since you are on the end closer to the out let end that is going to affect everybody with the intent above you.  If you were on the tail end of it you would be only affecting yourself.  Because you are closer to the outlet you are affecting them by putting the turns in there that in my opinion is going to affect full volume.”  

Rusty Gochenour replied, “It will make more of sweeping grade...”

Board Member Diener asked, “By increasing the size you can eliminate that there is no restriction whatever the angle is, don’t you think?”

Vice President Burton replied, “I am not, my degree does not allow me to have an option on that.  That might be debated.  Let’s see what he comes up with here in a second.”

Attorney Loy gave Rusty Gochenour and others a copy of the statue (§36-9-27-52.5) regarding this issue.  Copy attached to the filed copy of these minutes.

Attorney Loy stated, “If the Reconstruction consists of entirely of relocation of the drain from one site on your property to the other site on your property.  The specifications have been approved by the County Surveyor. Under the supervision of the surveyor.  You pay for the entire cost.  The surveyor has investigated whether any other owners land in the water shed will be adversely affected and he has communicated the results of his investigation to the Board.  The Board fines that there is not an adverse effect they can approve the project.”   

Board Member Heimlich asked, “So, we don’t have to have a hearing?  That is good.”

Attorney Loy answered, “No, so as long as all that is done.  We would need a written agreement.  Then there is the encroachment issue afterwards will need to be addressed.”

Vice President Burton said, “Right.” 

Rusty Gochenour said, “I can give the encroachment. It is seventy-five (75) feet on me and the other seventy-five (75) feet would be on Charlie Shepard then because it would be on my property line.  Instead of the whole one hundred and fifty (150) feet being on me, seventy-five (75) feet would be on Charlie Shepard.”

Attorney Loy replied, “Then Charlie Shepard needs to be aware of that.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “But there is not a building there, that is all farm ground?”

Attorney Loy said, “Mr. Shepard needs to be aware of that.”

Rusty Gochenour said, “Or we could just do a variance on the encroachment.”

Attorney Loy said, “It can be done.”

Rusty Gochenour said, “One hundred and fifty (150) feet for an eight (8) inch tile seems like…”

Vice President Burton replied, “It is seventy-five (75) feet either side.”

Board Member Heimlich repeated, “It is seventy-five (75) feet each side.”

Rusty Gochenour replied, “…one hundred and fifty (150) foot long.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “But what you are saying is that your building would be seventy-five (75) feet from it, the new one?”

Rusty Gochenour answered, “Yes.”

Vice President Burton replied, “We can leave that decision up to you.  If you want to get ahold of Mr. Shepard and he doesn’t have an issue with it. It makes your life a lot easier.  If not we get back to where even if you got thirty (30) on him and we allow you to encroach even twenty-five (25).”

Attorney Loy said, “You will need to give us a new scale drawing showing the proposed route.”

Rusty Gochenour asked, “Can you help me with that?”

Surveyor Ward said, “Yeah, I can help you with that.”

Attorney Loy continued, “Where you propose you are going to put your building relative to it.”

Rusty Gochenour replied, “That little square right there, there is the tile.”

Attorney Loy asked, “Showing the new route of whatever it is. This is what you own?  Here is the tile? This is the Shepard over here and this is what you want to build?”

Rusty Gochenour answered, “Yes.”

Attorney Loy asked, “So you are going to run it down here?”

Rusty Gochenour replied, “Right down here, around to the north, the north east corner.”

Attorney Loy asked, “So you are already going through Shepard’s?”

Rusty Gochenour answered, “Yes.”

Vice President Burton said, “Yeah the County Tile is, it is just a matter of rerouting it.”

Attorney Loy said, “Give us a new drawing with specs of what you propose to put in, how wide is your tile and let him know about it.  If the Board wants to do that, it can be done.”

Vice President Burton replied, “Before you go through a motion phase I do want to make sure my earlier concern that...”

Surveyor Ward asked, “That it is properly installed?”

Vice President Burton answered, “Right.”

Attorney Loy replied, “So long as he complies with the statue.”

Vice President Burton asked, “We are not doing anything with the encroachment yet?  We are only allowing him to relocate the tile? Ok.”

Board Member Heimlich made the motion to allow Mr. Gochenour to reroute the section of the Scott Hughes Tile, Branch #1 of the James Carter Ditch on his property.  That rerouting would meet all the criteria explained in §36-9-27-52.5 of the code. Such relocation being entirely at his expense.  Board Member Diener seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

Attorney Loy said, “Along with your specs give Brad (Surveyor Ward) a copy of you deed to your property.”

Vice President Burton stated, “As we proceed through this George (Attorney Loy) or Brad (Surveyor Ward) can advise you on going through our encroachment process.”

Rusty Gochenour asked, “Yeah, should we do that before we go ahead and move the tile that way…?”

Attorney Loy answered, “The only reason you are moving the tile is because you want to construct something and therefore we are going to need an encroachment.  Yeah, I think you should do that right away.”

Vice President Burton said, “Going back again to Blackman he is going to have to clarify some things on that.”

Next on the agenda-Marc Clapper-Discuss Drainage for Hughes Industrial Park
Viewing a drainage plan prepared by Tony Cain for Marc Clapper

Tony Cain stated, “I am Tony Cain I am representing Marc Clapper here.  He has bought the property out in the Hughes Industrial Park there south of Brookston.  We were just told here not too long ago that he needed a drainage permit to construct a fairly large building with some parking.  So we have come up with a drainage plan with a retention pond.  We would like to present that to you.”

Vice President Burton asked, “Could we see?  One of the two (2) options were to ask for ….do you just have one copy?”

Tony Cain answered, “Yes.”

Surveyor Ward said, “Ask for a waiver or a full blown drainage review.”

Vice President Burton replied, “In lieu of a review you are presenting this as?”

Surveyor Ward stated, “For the wavier I believe.”

Attorney Loy asked, “Are you recommending then?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “I think it needs a drainage review. It is at the threshold of ten thousand (10,000) square feet and I believe after you put the gravel in it would be twenty thousand (20,000) square feet.  I think the plan is sufficient but it has not been reviewed by Todd (Engineer Frauhiger).”

Vice President Burton asked, “Will Todd (Engineer Frauhiger) accept this?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “I believe Tony (Cain) has some calculations to go with it.”

Tony Cain replied, “Yes.”

Vice President Burton at this point was trying to explain the location of this project to the rest of the members of the Drainage Board.

Vice President Burton stated, “Again this is unusual in this presentation.”

Tony Cain said, “My calculations were roughly at twenty thousand (20,000) square feet in building and gravel parking lot.  In a six (6) inch rain event in a twenty-four (24) hour period would create thirty thousand (30,000) cubic feet of water.  We have six (6) inch tile for an outlet that is five (5) foot deep.  That five (5) inch tile is capable of carrying eighteen thousand two hundred and forty (18,240) cubic feet in twenty four (24) hours.  So we are proposing a retention pond to hold that remainder roughly twelve thousand (12,000) cubic feet plus.”

Attorney Loy replied, “For which you will need specs for Todd (Engineer Frauhiger) to review.”

Vice President Burton asked, “Right, where I am going with this.  That is going to be a dry bottom pond?” 

Tony Cain answered, “Yes.”

Vice President Burton ask, “We may be doing this backwards George (Attorney Loy) but if these specs meet Todd’s (Engineer Frauhiger) approval which is normal. But usually we don’t have them come in here before they go back to Todd (Engineer Frauhiger).”

Attorney Loy said, “Right, I assume this was a request for a waiver.”

Surveyor Ward replied, “This was more the intent, this is kind of the same situation as the building here.  Where this got brought to my attention at the building permit phase. Because of the size of the building is what threw a red flag up to me.”

Attorney Loy stated, “No waiver is going to be granted.  They need a full drainage plan to be presented and reviewed by our drainage engineer. Then approved by the Board…”

Tony Cain asked, “What would this waiver do for us?”

Vice President Burton answered, “We have granted waivers but generally that is when the owner owns property surrounding him.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “Yeah, if the building is in the middle of the property that the owner owns. Doesn’t affect anybody else that is generally when waivers are granted.”

Marc Clapper asked, “Can I ask something?”

Board Member Heimlich answered, “Sure.”

Marc Clapper continued, “I guess I would just like to know, my thing is I don’t know what it take or care what it takes.  But as a business owner to get something erected and be able to write it off it by the end of the year you have to have it in. The issue becomes and I know it is not your problem.  The issue becomes that I have been dealing with FBI for two (2) months and now I find out about a drainage plan which maybe a normal guy should know.  But a normal none Ag guy doesn’t know these things.  I am running around trying to get this thing done.  I am on a time frame.  I don’t care if I have to spend ten thousand dollars ($10,000.00) to the drainage board fellow down wherever he is, he uses it all and it just disappears.  If it cost four thousand dollars ($4,000.00) but the point is…It is not the money it is the timing of it.  I need this building, I can’t physically get this done. All I want is a waiver.  I tell you I will sign anything that says I will do anything to do out there retention wise to get it done. This just come up on us like he was supposed to be tearing out sod and putting gravel in this week. The problem is from a time frame of getting everything done. All I am asking for is a waiver to begin tearing out drive ways and putting in...  We have a foundation release from the State.  We have got seven thousand dollars ($7,000.00) in architectural plans over at the State.   If it was an Ag building it would be check here, check here and build the building.  Since it is in a commercial park which I would have thought had some sort of a water plan in acted already.  That is why I asked Tony (Cain) see what you can do as far as getting it moving. I just got to get it moving forward.  But I will comply with whatever drainage things that seems fit.  I assume our drainage plan is pretty good. It comes down that we have had it surveyed with Bob Gross in Lafayette.  I am sure you can run it over to Milligan’s he can take a pencil and draw out  a drainage plan and put his stamp on it for five hundred dollars ($500.00).  Bring it over here and Brad can send it for twenty-five hundred dollars ($2,500.00) more to the State.  The point is I just want to get it going.  I guess what I told Tony (Cain) if we can just get some kind of check mark to say continue to make progress I am telling you that I will sign whatever it says to do whatever I have to do.  That is not the issue it is just the timing of it is a problem of it for me all of a sudden.”  

Vice President Burton asked, “Have you got Todd (Engineer Frauhiger) coming up on some projects?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “Possibly on a confined hog operation building.”

Vice President Burton asked, “You don’t know when?”

Surveyor Ward answered, “They have not submitted that plan to me yet.”

Vice President Burton replied, “I guess that answers my question.”

Surveyor Ward said, “Right now I don’t.” 

Attorney Loy replied, "Give Todd (Engineer Frauhiger) a call.”

Vice President Burton stated, “The unusual thing here… Yeah, that is what I was going to suggest.  There is a possibility his calculations agrees with Tony’s (Cain).”

Board Member Heimlich said, “He may not have to come up.”

Vice President Burton replied, “Right.”

Surveyor Ward stated, “He doesn’t always have to. We send them to him and he reviews them.”

Vice President Burton said, “I am real leery that we are maybe breaking in new trends here. I want to be cautious about that.  But if Todd (Engineer Frauhiger) reviews these and agrees with Mr. Cain’s design plan here this would be the plan.”

Attorney Loy replied, “Could be, it is not typically an overly time consuming process unless that are some complications.”

Marc Clapper said, “I kind of remember our builder did it for us when we built the funeral home in Monon.  I think it was like a month by the time you send all that off and it comes back. If it is a month I am duped, I know it is not your problem.  I am telling you I would give you a ten thousand dollar ($10,000.00) holding check to make it happen.”

Vice President Burton replied, “That is not the issue here.  If Todd (Engineer Frauhiger) could agree to this in a day but I don’t know if he can.  I don’t know his availability.” 

Attorney Loy replied, “We can give Todd Frauhiger a call this afternoon find out his schedule.”

Surveyor Ward said, “I would think if he got that today it would be ready next week.”

Marc Clapper said, “Two (2) weeks wouldn’t be a problem.”

Board Member Heimlich said, “The other thing we have done before is give a foundation release.”

Vice President Burton replied, “A foundation release.”

Marc Clapper replied, “I already have that from the State.”

Board Member Heimlich asked, “You don’t have it from here?”
September 19, 2011


The White County Drainage Board convened at 10:43 A. M. in the Commissioners’ Room of the White County Building, Monticello, Indiana.  Board members present were:  Vice President Steve Burton, Drainage Board Member John Heimlich and Drainage Board Member David Diener.  Also present were Attorney George W. Loy, Surveyor Bradley Ward and Drainage Assistant Mary Sterrett. 

Also in attendance were:

Sharon Watson-White County Soil and Water
Tony Cain – T & M Cain Enterprises, LLC
Marc Clapper
Tara Gochenour
Rusty Gochenour

The September 19, 2011 White County Drainage Board was called to order by Vice President Steve Burton.   At this time Vice President Burton welcomed the White County Drainage Board’s new Drainage Board Member David Diener.

The first item on the agenda was to approve the minutes from the September 6th, 2011 White County Drainage Board Meeting.  Board Member John Heimlich so moved.  Vice President Burton seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.


Marc Clapper answered, “No.”

Board Member Heimlich continued, “I say we have done that in the past.”

Vice President Burton said, “We could allow him to get a foundation release then he could start then we would make this contingent on Todd (Engineer Frauhiger).”

Marc Clapper replied, “That is all I want.”

Board Member Diener replied, “Then it becomes his gamble.”

Vice President Burton continued, “If Todd (Engineer Frauhiger) says no you need to change this then…”

Marc Clapper said, “Not a problem, I will comply with whatever he tells me that I need to comply with.  It is just a matter of being able to move forward now while we are …”

Tony Cain stated, “We have got plenty of room for change our elevations are superior to get storm water and get rid of water.”

Attorney Loy said, “You can do that.”

Vice President Burton asked, “Do we approve the foundation release then?”

Board Member Heimlich answered, “We can approve it but Dave (Anderson) is going to want to talk to us about it.”

Vice President Burton asked, “Can you submit this for Todd’s (Engineer Frauhiger) approval?”

Board Member Heimlich answered, “Well yeah, I would think that would be the next step. I don’t know whether if we can grant our approval contingent on you know rather than wait for another meeting or…”

Attorney Loy replied, “I think you can approve the construction of the, I guess the foundation, for what the foundation permit?”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “Well Dave (Anderson) will have to grant that over there.  He will want to talk to us but he is going to ask about the drainage permit.”

Attorney Loy asked, “There can’t be any further construction without the drainage permit beyond the foundation?”

Board Member Heimlich answered, “Yeah.”

Attorney Loy asked, “That is ok with you?”

Marc Clapper answered, “Yeah, it would have to be otherwise if we wait for it the other way we can at least move forward this way.”

Board Member Heimlich ask, “But the other question is can we go and ahead approve this plan contingent on Todd’s (Engineer Frauhiger) approval?”

Board Member Diener asked, “Contingent on any recommendations or changes by our engineer?”

Attorney Loy said, “Yeah, you can.”

Board Member Heimlich replied, “That way we wouldn’t have to come back for another meeting if Todd (Engineer Frauhiger) could look at it pretty quick.”

Surveyor Ward said, “Approve it at the next meeting and they are already working.”

Attorney Loy said, “We will give you the contract information to this engineer we are talking about, Todd Frauhiger, you and he can go back and forth.”

Marc Clapper replied, “That will be great, I appreciate it.”

Board Member Diener made a motion to accept the drainage plan for the Clapper Funeral Services project as presented with any changes or recommendations made by the White County’s Engineer (Todd Frauhiger) that the owner (Marc Clapper) is willing to accept those changes and follow them.   Board Member Heimlich seconded the motion.  Motion carried unanimously.

Board Member Heimlich said, “We will have to talk to Dave (Anderson) over there.  It is unusual that foundation release but we have done it before.”

Surveyor Ward said, “I will take a copy of everything you have got and I will send it to Todd (Engineer Frauhiger).”

Attorney Loy said, “Give him a copy to Todd’s (Engineer Frauhiger) card or a copy of it or something.”

Surveyor Ward told the White County Drainage Board that there was going to be a meeting of the Indian Creek Joint Board and the Monon Joint Board on Thursday, September 22nd, 2011.

With nothing further Vice President Burton adjourned the September 19, 2011 White County Drainage Board Meeting.